View Full Version : Do you believe MOM's study that CPF is enough for retirement?
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 11:25
http://www.todayonline.com/Singapore/EDC120919-0000110/Young-working-Sporeans-will-have-enough-CPF-savings-by-retirement--MOM-study
Minister said MOM's new study is that young people should be able to rely on CPF for retirement ...
I think I am not old also not young, I have topped up my CPF to hit minimum sum as well as help my non-working wife to top up
Why it does not look like I can retire with CPF in 15-20y time hah?? :banghead:
Other than CPF SA/MA, my CPF OA is near zero servicing properties so where got enough hah?
MOM please show your study leh ...
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/Story/A1Story20120502-343523.html
Same, same.
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 12:03
I use a compound interest calculator
if starting off at 150k CPF SA+MA at age of 35, every month add $500 (assume CPF OA is used to pay properties), after 20y, it comes out to half a million
even assume dual income, it will come to 1m
1 million 20y later probably has the same purchasing power of 500k today
20y later, buy one car probably 200k already, one HDB probably 1.5m, MM condo can be 2m, one plate of chicken rice min $6 :doh:
giving extra 1% interest for the first 60k in CPF does help ... but what they should do is give extra 1% interest on the minimum sum instead
same thing as saying 1k can afford hdb flat
I use a compound interest calculator
if starting off at 150k CPF SA+MA at age of 35, every month add $500 (assume CPF OA is used to pay properties), after 20y, it comes out to half a million
even assume dual income, it will come to 1m
1 million 20y later probably has the same purchasing power of 500k today
20y later, buy one car probably 200k already, one HDB probably 1.5m, MM condo can be 2m, one plate of chicken rice min $6 :doh:
giving extra 1% interest for the first 60k in CPF does help ... but what they should do is give extra 1% interest on the minimum sum instead
aiya dont bother to work out the numbers until they show the study.
otherwise is just another propaganda for the masses.
ikan bilis
20-09-12, 13:22
umm.... my case...
if, leave my cpf $$ inside an hdb... sure enough for retirement... :47:
if, return all my cpf $$ to me now and let me manage myself,... sure will become >2x enough for retirement... :cheers4:
if, leave it in OA/SA/MA of 2.5-4% interest,... BIG question arh !!!....:scared-4:
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 13:25
umm.... my case...
if, leave my cpf $$ inside an hdb... sure enough for retirement... :47:
if, return all my cpf $$ to me now and let me manage myself,... sure will become >2x enough for retirement... :cheers4:
if, leave it in OA/SA/MA of 2.5-4% interest,... BIG question arh !!!....:scared-4:
Why leave CPF in your HDB enough for retirement?
Actually hoh, if they allow CPF SA (minus first 60k) to buy STI ETF ... problem solved. Instead they only allow you to buy some stupid funds that charge so much fees and less transparent :beats-me-man:
ikan bilis
20-09-12, 13:28
Why leave CPF in your HDB enough for retirement?
Actually hoh, if they allow CPF SA (minus first 60k) to buy STI ETF ... problem solved. Instead they only allow you to buy some stupid funds that charge so much fees and less transparent :beats-me-man:
i tot you can use SA to buy STI-ETF ??... (some managed funds, you cannot buy stock except that STI-ETF??).... :confused:
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 13:34
i tot you can use SA to buy STI-ETF ??... (some managed funds, you cannot buy stock except that STI-ETF??).... :confused:
Are u sure? anybody here did that? if confirmed tomorrow I will go open CPFIS-SA account with my bank
I thought STI ETF only possible with CPFIS-OA
ikan bilis
20-09-12, 13:53
Are u sure? anybody here did that? if confirmed tomorrow I will go open CPFIS-SA account with my bank
I thought STI ETF only possible with CPFIS-OA
google-d but some say can, some say cannot...
check this tankinlian blog... said cannot
http://tankinlian.blogspot.sg/2011/02/growth-fund-vs-sti-etf.html
check this 1, said can...
http://finance-attachment-light.blogspot.sg/2012/06/should-i-invest-my-cpf-special-account.html
heehee... pls tell me after your find out later.... :doh:
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 14:05
Most likely cannot ... it is really stupid, they classify STI ETF as high risk (oh i c, they expect STI ETF to return < 4% in the long term even with dividend??)
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/171497E5-99C7-4517-9F59-0C96890D57F4/0/etf.pdf
above said currently the two ETFs are only available in CPFIS-OA ... :doh:
I already sent them an enquiry, will share later
Regulators
20-09-12, 14:44
:doh: How does cpf provide for retirement when it is our own money to begin with? Govt pays civil servants a pension using money from govt coffers, so how can money we are forced to contribute into cpf every month be even considered a pension when we are effectively paying ourselves? Cpf is the most terrible flaw in our system. :doh:
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 15:02
CPF used to pay very good interest until they allow CPF OA to buy properties then suddenly the interest rate drops to pathetic 2.5% for CPF OA in early 199x
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/5C7AAE66-A2F1-4DCD-9898-D6D1F37A8FB0/0/InterestRate.pdf
Regulators
20-09-12, 15:24
when you sell your house and money go into cpf, why do they make you pay back the accrued interest? Shouldn't the government be paying you that interest?
CPF used to pay very good interest until they allow CPF OA to buy properties then suddenly the interest rate drops to pathetic 2.5% for CPF OA in early 199x
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/5C7AAE66-A2F1-4DCD-9898-D6D1F37A8FB0/0/InterestRate.pdf
:doh: How does cpf provide for retirement when it is our own money to begin with? Govt pays civil servants a pension using money from govt coffers, so how can money we are forced to contribute into cpf every month be even considered a pension when we are effectively paying ourselves? Cpf is the most terrible flaw in our system. :doh:
it's merely a convenient excuse to use our monies for their purposes. it's stupid when my government tells me how i can utilize my money after retirement, via an annuity plan. it's stupid when parents use their CPF to pay for their kids tertiary education, only for the government to hound the kids to pay back the sum (plus interests), even after parents opt to write off the debt. it's stupid when temasek and gic squander citizens' hardearn-ed in doofus investments (don't get me started).
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 16:38
actually I don't mind the annuity if it has economic of scale and bring down insurance cost ..... i will choose the plan that leaves nothing for my children though ;)
actually I don't mind the annuity if it has economic of scale and bring down insurance cost ..... i will choose the plan that leaves nothing for my children though ;)
the fact that i can't choose, whether to have an annuity plan or not, irks me.
are you going to be like those american tycoons that will their entire fortune to charitable causes and leave nothing for your descendents?
ikan bilis
20-09-12, 16:45
it's merely a convenient excuse to use our monies for their purposes. it's stupid when my government tells me how i can utilize my money after retirement, via an annuity plan. it's stupid when parents use their CPF to pay for their kids tertiary education, only for the government to hound the kids to pay back the sum (plus interests), even after parents opt to write off the debt. it's stupid when temasek and gic squander citizens' hardearn-ed in doofus investments (don't get me started).
... sigh !!.... retirement ??... sigh !!....
"80 year old Singaporean dishwasher dropped dead at workplace"...
may be i better stay in jb when old...
:(
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 16:51
the fact that i can't choose, whether to have an annuity plan or not, irks me.
are you going to be like those american tycoons that will their entire fortune to charitable causes and leave nothing for your descendents?
I am too poor :banghead: at least will leave a property or two to my children loh ... but definitely will try to spend away all CPF + cash + bonds :cool:
I believe .. I believe that pigs can fly... Work happily till We die..
:-)$$
I would rather born poor than die rich.
Regulators
20-09-12, 18:21
they really think we brainless....why do we need to pay back the accrued interest using our own money when government suppose to pay us the interest to help us save more? We use our own money they still want us to pay our own interest, so where is the logic??? Don't mind me saying, but cpf really a fxxkd up system
it's merely a convenient excuse to use our monies for their purposes. it's stupid when my government tells me how i can utilize my money after retirement, via an annuity plan. it's stupid when parents use their CPF to pay for their kids tertiary education, only for the government to hound the kids to pay back the sum (plus interests), even after parents opt to write off the debt. it's stupid when temasek and gic squander citizens' hardearn-ed in doofus investments (don't get me started).
I do not agree with this strange MOM "finding"... I din know what assumption they use...
However, to say e whole CPF system is f*** up, is too much. I think it is a good system. Much better than the western pension system.
At least with CPF system, we have "quasi"ownership of our money. Look for most practical purpose, you can use it. In Europe, the contribution goes to a bottomless pit, and you dun even have any sense of ownership. Every one takes it as gone money.
now u will say they get free healthcare in return. Sure, looks like. But that is not a sustainable model, as evident by today's Europe debt crisis.
The biggest mistake made in CPF history, IMO, was allowing using CPF to buy property. This should have never been allowed.
phantom_opera
20-09-12, 22:50
I do not agree with this strange MOM "finding"... I din know what assumption they use...
However, to say e whole CPF system is f*** up, is too much. I think it is a good system. Much better than the western pension system.
At least with CPF system, we have "quasi"ownership of our money. Look for most practical purpose, you can use it. In Europe, the contribution goes to a bottomless pit, and you dun even have any sense of ownership. Every one takes it as gone money.
now u will say they get free healthcare in return. Sure, looks like. But that is not a sustainable model, as evident by today's Europe debt crisis.
The biggest mistake made in CPF history, IMO, was allowing using CPF to buy property. This should have never been allowed.
Totally agree with last sentence ... it is the road of no return,the resulting property bubble of 1992-1996 is really outrageous :mad:
I would rather born poor than die rich.
I would rather born rich than die poor. :ashamed1:
Regulators
21-09-12, 02:18
You are comparing with the western pension system, but nobody said the western pension system is good in the first place. The saddest thing is cpf is nowhere even near a pension system, the only true pension is available to the selected in the civil service where govt pays you a monthly sum every month without the person having to contribute money on his own.
I do not agree with this strange MOM "finding"... I din know what assumption they use...
However, to say e whole CPF system is f*** up, is too much. I think it is a good system. Much better than the western pension system.
At least with CPF system, we have "quasi"ownership of our money. Look for most practical purpose, you can use it. In Europe, the contribution goes to a bottomless pit, and you dun even have any sense of ownership. Every one takes it as gone money.
now u will say they get free healthcare in return. Sure, looks like. But that is not a sustainable model, as evident by today's Europe debt crisis.
The biggest mistake made in CPF history, IMO, was allowing using CPF to buy property. This should have never been allowed.
our political leaders have already warned us about having to raise taxes to fund increases in social spending. even without having a universal healthcare coverage like in Europe, we are presented with the scenario that healthcare costs is unsustainable. is it true?
how about stashing away less of nation's surpluses? or provide less ammo for the temasek and gic, which ultimately squander away in stupid investments?
how about emulating the nordic countries? i don't mind paying high taxes, if i know that my family's healthcare is taken care of, my children's education is provided for, national monies are used to help the less privileged, etc etc.
I do not agree with this strange MOM "finding"... I din know what assumption they use...
However, to say e whole CPF system is f*** up, is too much. I think it is a good system. Much better than the western pension system.
At least with CPF system, we have "quasi"ownership of our money. Look for most practical purpose, you can use it. In Europe, the contribution goes to a bottomless pit, and you dun even have any sense of ownership. Every one takes it as gone money.
now u will say they get free healthcare in return. Sure, looks like. But that is not a sustainable model, as evident by today's Europe debt crisis.
The biggest mistake made in CPF history, IMO, was allowing using CPF to buy property. This should have never been allowed.
Agree with you. ask the Aussie what they think of the super Annuation fund compare to our CPF?
To some, the CPF is uselesss because these people are educated and know how to invest for better returns... to others not so educated one, i think CPF at least makes some sense.. if CPF don't control, more Ah Peh's would have lose their CPF money to more china mei mei (years back was malaysia's hair dresser, singer....)
where got 100% free medical care.. still got to use own money to buy medical insurance.. dont' belive check with your aussie counterparts...
not sure if european is the same
Agree with you. ask the Aussie what they think of the super Annuation fund compare to our CPF?
To some, the CPF is uselesss because these people are educated and know how to invest for better returns... to others not so educated one, i think CPF at least makes some sense.. if CPF don't control, more Ah Peh's would have lose their CPF money to more china mei mei (years back was malaysia's hair dresser, singer....)
where got 100% free medical care.. still got to use own money to buy medical insurance.. dont' belive check with your aussie counterparts...
not sure if european is the same
well, show me statistics that the amount of monies lost to china mei-meis, singers, blah blah blah, are serious enough to warrant the implementation of a compulsory annuity system. if you want my money to fund stupid investments, say so. if it's to protect stupid uncles from squandering their hard-earned CPF, why can't it be an opt-in system? casinos are social-ills but yet application for entry bars are optional.
in australia, insurance is meant to provide coverage for areas where the
public healthcare system is lacking. if the condition is non-acute and can afford to wait, can always hinge on public healthcare.
a true story to share. dad's friend got diagnosed with leukemia and needs a bone marrow transplant. went to SGH and hospital demanded $100k deposit as guarantee, or else the operation cannot proceed. guess what? the poor folk does not have $100k stashed in his bank account, and so has to walk away and wait for his impending demise.
our political leaders have already warned us about having to raise taxes to fund increases in social spending. even without having a universal healthcare coverage like in Europe, we are presented with the scenario that healthcare costs is unsustainable. is it true?
how about stashing away less of nation's surpluses? or provide less ammo for the temasek and gic, which ultimately squander away in stupid investments?
how about emulating the nordic countries? i don't mind paying high taxes, if i know that my family's healthcare is taken care of, my children's education is provided for, national monies are used to help the less privileged, etc etc.
we have visitors from europes and once awhile from australia.. most complain about the high taxes.. blah blah thought it is true education and medical are free. but with high taxes there is little saving at the end of the day.. some of them rent instead of owning a piece of property...
so i find it surprise that you dont mind our system emulating the nordic countries. but you might have better experience as I have not been to these countries.
but maybe people sometime complain for the sake of complaining like those european visitors we have in our company...:confused:
buttercarp
21-09-12, 10:21
I would rather born poor than die rich.
I would rather born rich than die poor. :ashamed1:
Aiyo..... so confusing..... which one is better :ashamed1: ?
I would rather be born rich and die rich :D .
well, show me statistics that the amount of monies lost to china mei-meis, singers, blah blah blah, are serious enough to warrant the implementation of a compulsory annuity system. if you want my money to fund stupid investments, say so. if it's to protect stupid uncles from squandering their hard-earned CPF, why can't it be an opt-in system? casinos are social-ills but yet application for entry bars are optional.
in australia, insurance is meant to provide coverage for areas where the
public healthcare system is lacking. if the condition is non-acute and can afford to wait, can always hinge on public healthcare.
a true story to share. dad's friend got diagnosed with leukemia and needs a bone marrow transplant. went to SGH and hospital demanded $100k deposit as guarantee, or else the operation cannot proceed. guess what? the poor folk does not have $100k stashed in his bank account, and so has to walk away and wait for his impending demise.
i dont have figures lah... i used to kaypo those "wan pao" and "sin ming" years back... and 2 of my distant relatives money got cheated.. ended up sleeping in the park.
but sad to hear your father's friend situation. this show that we better depends on ourself and dont count on anyone...
we have visitors from europes and once awhile from australia.. most complain about the high taxes.. blah blah thought it is true education and medical are free. but with high taxes there is little saving at the end of the day.. some of them rent instead of owning a piece of property...
so i find it surprise that you dont mind our system emulating the nordic countries. but you might have better experience as I have not been to these countries.
but maybe people sometime complain for the sake of complaining like those european visitors we have in our company...:confused:
to be honest, if you make calculations on how much one has to pay out of pocket in our system vs the amount of taxes those folks pay, the difference isn't astronomical.
using my dad's friend as an example, he would have gotten the transplant without questions asked, no cash guarantees, if it were in a nordic country.
each scheme has its owns benefits and weaknesses. this thread isn't to debate and make comparisons, but to question our government's statement that youngsters can retire with their CPF.
i dont have figures lah... i used to kaypo those "wan pao" and "sin ming" years back... and 2 of my distant relatives money got cheated.. ended up sleeping in the park.
but sad to hear your father's friend situation. this show that we better depends on ourself and dont count on anyone...
well, even with past cases of foreign mei-meis conning ah-peks of CPF being reported, there are still more ah-peks plunging into traps with eyes wide open.
cheat? maybe not, since these folks know what they are in for. they want to satisfy their lust and yet over-estimate their abilities to see through con ruses.
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 11:31
Singapore healthcare is world class, but free only for panda
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/imagecache/listing-page-large/DEWB7.jpg
Regulators
21-09-12, 11:44
What makes you think the taxes in singapore are not high?? We do not have as high a personal income tax as some of these other countries but singaporeans are facing a worse off situation of high property prices, ridiculous COEs, high medical cost etc, which is far worse than countries paying high taxes. Majority of Singaporeans are only property rich, but not cash or income rich so low personal income tax actually only benefits the top 5% of the country. CPF hits hardest on the lower income workers who can't use their own money when they need to. We lock our money in insurance, it guarantees payout in the event of sickness or accident, we park money in CPF, it provides nothing. For govt to say that CPF provides well for retirement is a load of crap. To use the ah peh getting swindled example as a reason to have CPF for the whole country is rather flimsy. I think some in this forum choose to support CPF coz they have no choice but to do that, with 20% of their income going into it every month :doh:
we have visitors from europes and once awhile from australia.. most complain about the high taxes.. blah blah thought it is true education and medical are free. but with high taxes there is little saving at the end of the day.. some of them rent instead of owning a piece of property...
so i find it surprise that you dont mind our system emulating the nordic countries. but you might have better experience as I have not been to these countries.
but maybe people sometime complain for the sake of complaining like those european visitors we have in our company...:confused:
correct. when we grow old, the only way to suck back out our own money is thru the stupid CPF LIFE.
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 12:22
correct. when we grow old, the only way to suck back out our own money is thru the stupid CPF LIFE.
CPF life is not stupid, both DPS and Medishield are pretty decent, only with economic of scale and cut down on middleman you can get low cost insurance / annuities
I fully support annuities by CPF, it is also to prevent our senior citiziens from getting conned by China mei mei or Batam
What makes you think the taxes in singapore are not high?? We do not have as high a personal income tax as some of these other countries but singaporeans are facing a worse off situation of high property prices, ridiculous COEs, high medical cost etc, which is far worse than countries paying high taxes. Majority of Singaporeans are only property rich, but not cash or income rich so low personal income tax actually only benefits the top 5% of the country. CPF hits hardest on the lower income workers who can't use their own money when they need to. We lock our money in insurance, it guarantees payout in the event of sickness or accident, we park money in CPF, it provides nothing. For govt to say that CPF provides well for retirement is a load of crap. To use the ah peh getting swindled example as a reason to have CPF for the whole country is rather flimsy. I think some in this forum choose to support CPF coz they have no choice but to do that, with 20% of their income going into it every month :doh:
yea..alot of disagreement with locking our $ into CPF...
there is also a report that cpf link bond investment drop 4% last quarter / year..
poor singaporean:banghead:
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 12:26
CPF has the good, the bad and the uglies
DPS/Medishiel/CPF Life are good .. the extra 1% for first 60k is the step in the correct direction as it benefits the poor more than the rich
CPFIS is the ugly
the bad is allowing CPF OA to buy properties with a low 2.5% rate, this is the single reason why property is so expensive now even we have public housing
CPFIS is really a stupid scheme, initiatially all the funds charge premium ... then CPF stil cap it at 3% .. low cost fund like ETFs are not even listed in CPFIS-SA :doh: instead they go and include bond fund which is unlikely to beat the default return of 4% in CPFIS-SA, it is ugly
and the suggestion to peg SA rate to 10y SGS bond yield + 1% will be forever postponed until US Fed rate goes up ... :rolleyes:
Aiyo..... so confusing..... which one is better :ashamed1: ?
I would rather be born rich and die rich :D .
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
CPF life is not stupid, both DPS and Medishield are pretty decent, only with economic of scale and cut down on middleman you can get low cost insurance / annuities
I fully support annuities by CPF, it is also to prevent our senior citiziens from getting conned by China mei mei or Batam
it's a good scheme for those who need it. just don't make it compulsory and assume every male retiree is gonna get conned by a mei-mei
What makes you think the taxes in singapore are not high?? We do not have as high a personal income tax as some of these other countries but singaporeans are facing a worse off situation of high property prices, ridiculous COEs, high medical cost etc, which is far worse than countries paying high taxes. Majority of Singaporeans are only property rich, but not cash or income rich so low personal income tax actually only benefits the top 5% of the country. CPF hits hardest on the lower income workers who can't use their own money when they need to. We lock our money in insurance, it guarantees payout in the event of sickness or accident, we park money in CPF, it provides nothing. For govt to say that CPF provides well for retirement is a load of crap. To use the ah peh getting swindled example as a reason to have CPF for the whole country is rather flimsy. I think some in this forum choose to support CPF coz they have no choice but to do that, with 20% of their income going into it every month :doh:
i entirely agree with this. personal tax is low, but never consider paying out of pocket for healthcare, tertiary education, insurance, COE, etc etc
Regulators
21-09-12, 13:41
Medisave is a bad as other cpf accounts. They do not allow you to buy critical illness n life plans from outside insurers with the money which greatly eases the burden on the family when a person falls terminally ill or passes on. Hospitalisation is the only thing that is covered under medishield, but that is too limited coz not everyone that is terminally ill has to lie on the hospital bed everyday. I have to contribute to the useless medisave as self employed every year and spend thousands on health insurance on top of paying into medisave. Asked them if I could use medisave to pay for my insurance policies they declined without giving any good reason. Why should they stop us from using our own money to plan for our own healthcare? :doh:
CPF has the good, the bad and the uglies
DPS/Medishiel/CPF Life are good .. the extra 1% for first 60k is the step in the correct direction as it benefits the poor more than the rich
CPFIS is the ugly
the bad is allowing CPF OA to buy properties with a low 2.5% rate, this is the single reason why property is so expensive now even we have public housing
CPFIS is really a stupid scheme, initiatially all the funds charge premium ... then CPF stil cap it at 3% .. low cost fund like ETFs are not even listed in CPFIS-SA :doh: instead they go and include bond fund which is unlikely to beat the default return of 4% in CPFIS-SA, it is ugly
and the suggestion to peg SA rate to 10y SGS bond yield + 1% will be forever postponed until US Fed rate goes up ... :rolleyes:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
oh lord, please give me eternal life of happiness, (i dont want eternal life of suffering).
i also want 100x the amount i donated in your glorious magnificient name
thank you lord.
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 13:51
Medisave is a bad as other cpf accounts. They do not allow you to buy critical illness n life plans from outside insurers with the money which greatly eases the burden on the family when a person falls terminally ill or passes on. Hospitalisation is the only thing that is covered under medishield, but that is too limited coz not everyone that is terminally ill has to lie on the hospital bed everyday. I have to contribute to the useless medisave as self employed every year and spend thousands on health insurance on top of paying into medisave. Asked them if I could use medisave to pay for my insurance policies they declined without giving any good reason. Why should they stop us from using our own money to plan for our own healthcare? :doh:
you have a good point, at least they should allow using Medisave to buy critical illness policies from accredited insurers
my friend's dad down with cancer once, after 3y recurred, combine medisave from all children also barely enough to pay for surgeries
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 13:53
I tried the CPF Life calculator, 500k will give monthly payout about 4k .. is that a lot or not? But payout will only start after 65 ?
imagine, you live till 75, then what u get is
12 x 4k x 10 = 480k
so if you die b4 75, you lose
bottom line is depend on urself. anyway CPF is meant to be a safety net. To be enough u might have to take a hit on ur life style.
but then in this world there is no free lunch.
Question do u think the US 401(k) is enough for retirement?
Regulators
21-09-12, 14:18
If you are seventy years old, why not?
Question do u think the US 401(k) is enough for retirement?
I tried the CPF Life calculator, 500k will give monthly payout about 4k .. is that a lot or not? But payout will only start after 65 ?
imagine, you live till 75, then what u get is
12 x 4k x 10 = 480k
so if you die b4 75, you lose
that's why the annuity is stupid!! probably conceived by some scholar living in an ivory tower.
asking us to gaze into the crystal and guess what we are going to die!! die after 75, no % = commit suicide
die before 75, luigi (though i believe you can bequeath the leftover to a beneficiary)
Regulators
21-09-12, 14:23
I have yet to get an answer from CPF supporters why we need to pay accrued interest back into CPF account after selling house when money goes back to CPF? Can anyone shed some light coz isn't the govt supposed credit interest into our accounts to help us save?
I have yet to get an answer from CPF supporters why we need to pay accrued interest back into CPF account after selling house when money goes back to CPF? Can anyone shed some light coz isn't the govt supposed credit interest into our accounts to help us save?
don't we all know that the CPF monies are being used by temasek and gic to gamble in lousy investments?
i use CPF to buy property, temasek & gic can't use it to buy BoA shares or ABC kindergarten. that's why charge us interest as opportunity costs.
Regulators
21-09-12, 14:30
That is the unofficial answer we all know, but i want to hear the official reasoning given by CPF. We are a country that goes by law and constitution so we have a right to know why we are paying our own interest and not the government putting into our accounts.
don't we all know that the CPF monies are being used by temasek and gic to gamble in lousy investments?
i use CPF to buy property, temasek & gic can't use it to buy BoA shares or ABC kindergarten. that's why charge us interest as opportunity costs.
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 14:30
that's why the annuity is stupid!! probably conceived by some scholar living in an ivory tower.
asking us to gaze into the crystal and guess what we are going to die!! die after 75, no % = commit suicide
die before 75, luigi (though i believe you can bequeath the leftover to a beneficiary)
yes, there is a high payout plan low bequest where if you die b4 65, your children get a refund, but once the payout starts at 65, it quickly goes to zero by the time you are 75
monthly payout still about 4k for 500k ..
question, 15y later, would you pay 500k in exchange for 4k monthly payout?
note 500k 15y later is only as good as 250k today in terms of purchasing power, 4k is like 2k today :beats-me-man: on boy ... you must buy at 55 and the money is frozen till 65 for nothing :doh:
That is the unofficial answer we all know, but i want to hear the official reasoning given by CPF
haha, when i hit 'enter', it immediately crossed my mind that you should know this.
well, the government will never admit that temasek and gic are squandering our hard-earned monies. please, these two firms don't even make their accounts public.
when it's time to retire, i will pack my bags, take out my entire CPF and head down south.
buttercarp
21-09-12, 14:47
Just had a debate with a friend the other day. She is self employed and said she contributed to all 3 CPF accounts. I told her I prefer to just contribute to the mandatory medisave account, and use the rest for investments.
Then she keep on scolding me for not contributing to all 3 CPF accounts.
Sianz :( .
its obvious that the money in cpf does not truly belong to you. else why you need to pay interest to 'borrow your own money'?
you can argue that you earned it. but don't forget sizeable part of it is from the EMPLOYER and is mandated by govt to contribute to this your account. so it was not, is not, and never will be truly yours.
its obvious that the money in cpf does not truly belong to you. else why you need to pay interest to 'borrow your own money'?
you can argue that you earned it. but don't forget sizeable part of it is from the EMPLOYER and is mandated by govt to contribute to this your account. so it was not, is not, and never will be truly yours.
the monies belong to the individual account holder, period. if it ain't, then don't make it mandatory for employers to contribute to employees' account.
quoting Andy Lau, “If it is not mine, I will not think of possessing it. If it is not yours, do not even think about getting a single grain of sand or a drop of water!”
Regulators
21-09-12, 15:15
you forgot one thing, when employers pay employees, they already factor in CPF contribution into their equation so actual pay is inclusive of what employers pay into the employee's CPF account. just like when developers say they are absorbing ABSD etc, do you think the price reflects that?
its obvious that the money in cpf does not truly belong to you. else why you need to pay interest to 'borrow your own money'?
you can argue that you earned it. but don't forget sizeable part of it is from the EMPLOYER and is mandated by govt to contribute to this your account. so it was not, is not, and never will be truly yours.
you have a good point, at least they should allow using Medisave to buy critical illness policies from accredited insurers
my friend's dad down with cancer once, after 3y recurred, combine medisave from all children also barely enough to pay for surgeries
wah kao!
better don't get sick in SG!!!
haha good was waiting for an answer like Regulators
cpf=control people FULLY:cool:
but frankly speaking if got NO cpf u think ah beng...ah te and ah kau...can buy hdb flat....:D
Ok regulators since no one answered ur question, I will try.
First and foremost, take this, CPF money was meant to be a pension like contribution. Therefore it was NEVER your money. You contribute to the collective pool of the nation. Period. Every society requires ppl contributing to some form of pension system. SG is no exception.
However, the old guards fully believe western style pension system does not work (which I'm glad u agree), so they tweak the system such that you are given quasi entitlement of the "money". The most important part of it is: you yourself arer responsible for what you can enjoy at retirement. So the more your contribute, the more you can enjoy later. This is fundamental, because it removes the element of "doing nothing and get paid" phenomenon. This encourages everyone to work hard,and remove free loaders.
It is exactly because this money were never meant to be really yours, when you take it out, you are really loaning it from the national pension pool. Of course you must return with interest.
Now because of the "entitlement" , many ppl have the false impression that these money are REALLY theirs. And demand this and that why I cannot use my own money. No they are not our money. They at our entitlement. If you only want all as your own money, you are demanding a society with no pension system and every one is on his own. For a collective pension system to exist, you must force all to participate. You cannot allow the smarter ones to opt out.
Lastly why medisave acct has restrictions buying medical insurance ? Simple : there are way too many unnecessary, overpriced, cheating kind of "insurance" around. Insurance companies are in this trade to con as many ppl as possible to buy unnecessary policies. Without a strict regulation, all the medisave money will be wasted on these unscrupulous agents/insurance companies. Therefore every medi insurance program must be approved by CPF board 1st. This gives the 1st check to ensure such policies are meaningful and not bullshit.
finally someone old bird enough like amk to explain why cpf is never our money.
I just don't have the patience.
phantom_opera
21-09-12, 20:59
Actually I don't agree with amk's explanation about medisave buying insurance part ... of course there are many insurance products out there not suitable using medisave ... however, a basic terminal illness or critical illness plan with major insurers should be possible ... if NTUC Income can offer the LUV plan at low cost for NTUC members up to 200k critical illness protection for about 500 per year, I don't see why CPF cannot do it :beats-me-man:
... sigh !!.... retirement ??... sigh !!....
"80 year old Singaporean dishwasher dropped dead at workplace"...
may be i better stay in jb when old...
:(
then will be 80year old singaporean murdered at home in JB:scared-1: :D:D:D
amk, intresting concept.
would the ability to withdraw cpf funds in its entirety when renouncing citizenship be in any way at odds with your explanation?
singapore is so organised...
u want car u go LTA
u want house u go HDB
u want retire u go CPF
where to find....:)
u want to TCSS...u go....
FORUM..:cheers5::cheers5::cheers5:
... if NTUC Income can offer the LUV plan at low cost for NTUC members up to 200k critical illness protection for about 500 per year, I don't see why CPF cannot do it :beats-me-man:
What I wrote earlie was the main idea. Come to implementation details, all sorts of mistakes, oversights happened. For sure medi should be allowed to buy luv kind of thing. The new generation of ppl at CPF board just not thinking. Also CPF to buy pty, such a dramatic move dun know whose idea.
@hopeful: this system has to appear fair. That's why. In any case the damage is insignificant. if u have a lot of CPF money, tha means u had worked here a long time, the money stayed inside our pool long enough to be like a 30yr bond.
http://www.income.com.sg/insurance/LUV/index.asp
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
i think i going to buy this one...
Allthepies
21-09-12, 22:31
http://www.income.com.sg/insurance/LUV/index.asp
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
i think i going to buy this one...
bought already! good choice, best plan in town! :cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
Allthepies
21-09-12, 22:37
CPF money is just a forced saving which forced you to save so that you can invest in properties. :D:D:D:D:D
It has no other use.
Ha ha, just kidding.
Actually CPF is targeted at those people who don't know how to save money. Government forced these group of people to save or else they will just spend whatever income they receive. So CPF is very good for these group of people.
However, increasingly, there is another group of investment savvy people. Government should allow these selected group of people to do opt out of CPF. :cheers5:
Regulators
22-09-12, 01:13
So the individual contributes into your so-called national pool and uses his own contributed money to buy a house and has to later pay his own interest into the account when he sells the house n money goes back to CPF? Where then does the government come into the picture to assist the member to enhance his saving for retirement when the person is denied of that peanut interest and has to put it in himself? Does it mean that a person with zero balance in the CPF account (all being used up for the house) will have to pay 20 years of interest of whatever amount he used for the house into his own account when he sells the flat 20 years later coz he is taking a loan from himself? Would'nt this person who only uses his CPF for his house be disadvantaged n not benefitting from CPF at all?
As for your reasoning to support non-usage of medisave money for outside insurance, i can't agree with you on that. The reason is also simple, those products marketed by insurers outside are all approved by the insurance association and other relevant authorities so why should they be cheats? AIA, Prudential, Great Eastern are all reputable companies which are among the companies i bought insurance from, so why shouldn't they be allowed?
To conclude, there are more questions than answers with regard to CPF and many people are coming to see that it is an archaic system that has outlived its usefulness and perhaps it applies only to that small handful of simple-minded ah pehs with hardly any money in their CPF accounts to scream about. To use the ah peh reasoning to force the whole nation into a pension-like scheme is pure evil and totalitarian. :doh:
Ok regulators since no one answered ur question, I will try.
First and foremost, take this, CPF money was meant to be a pension like contribution. Therefore it was NEVER your money. You contribute to the collective pool of the nation. Period. Every society requires ppl contributing to some form of pension system. SG is no exception.
However, the old guards fully believe western style pension system does not work (which I'm glad u agree), so they tweak the system such that you are given quasi entitlement of the "money". The most important part of it is: you yourself arer responsible for what you can enjoy at retirement. So the more your contribute, the more you can enjoy later. This is fundamental, because it removes the element of "doing nothing and get paid" phenomenon. This encourages everyone to work hard,and remove free loaders.
It is exactly because this money were never meant to be really yours, when you take it out, you are really loaning it from the national pension pool. Of course you must return with interest.
Now because of the "entitlement" , many ppl have the false impression that these money are REALLY theirs. And demand this and that why I cannot use my own money. No they are not our money. They at our entitlement. If you only want all as your own money, you are demanding a society with no pension system and every one is on his own. For a collective pension system to exist, you must force all to participate. You cannot allow the smarter ones to opt out.
Lastly why medisave acct has restrictions buying medical insurance ? Simple : there are way too many unnecessary, overpriced, cheating kind of "insurance" around. Insurance companies are in this trade to con as many ppl as possible to buy unnecessary policies. Without a strict regulation, all the medisave money will be wasted on these unscrupulous agents/insurance companies. Therefore every medi insurance program must be approved by CPF board 1st. This gives the 1st check to ensure such policies are meaningful and not bullshit.
Regulators
22-09-12, 01:46
Majority of singaporeans utilise their CPF monies to the max to pay for their homes, they are effectively doing it to their detriment. The rationale is very simple. The more money a person uses to pay for the house, the lesser interest the government puts into the CPF account. Government forces people to use all their CPF money to pay for their homes bought before disbursing the balance under HDB loan so they can reduce the interest payable to the person's accounts. This is an evil system indeed.
Ok regulators since no one answered ur question, I will try.
First and foremost, take this, CPF money was meant to be a pension like contribution. Therefore it was NEVER your money. You contribute to the collective pool of the nation. Period. Every society requires ppl contributing to some form of pension system. SG is no exception.
However, the old guards fully believe western style pension system does not work (which I'm glad u agree), so they tweak the system such that you are given quasi entitlement of the "money". The most important part of it is: you yourself arer responsible for what you can enjoy at retirement. So the more your contribute, the more you can enjoy later. This is fundamental, because it removes the element of "doing nothing and get paid" phenomenon. This encourages everyone to work hard,and remove free loaders.
It is exactly because this money were never meant to be really yours, when you take it out, you are really loaning it from the national pension pool. Of course you must return with interest.
Now because of the "entitlement" , many ppl have the false impression that these money are REALLY theirs. And demand this and that why I cannot use my own money. No they are not our money. They at our entitlement. If you only want all as your own money, you are demanding a society with no pension system and every one is on his own. For a collective pension system to exist, you must force all to participate. You cannot allow the smarter ones to opt out.
Lastly why medisave acct has restrictions buying medical insurance ? Simple : there are way too many unnecessary, overpriced, cheating kind of "insurance" around. Insurance companies are in this trade to con as many ppl as possible to buy unnecessary policies. Without a strict regulation, all the medisave money will be wasted on these unscrupulous agents/insurance companies. Therefore every medi insurance program must be approved by CPF board 1st. This gives the 1st check to ensure such policies are meaningful and not bullshit.
Bottomline...CPF=heads i win tails u loose...:cool:
Majority of singaporeans utilise their CPF monies to the max to pay for their homes, they are effectively doing it to their detriment. The rationale is very simple. The more money a person uses to pay for the house, the lesser interest the government puts into the CPF account. Government forces people to use all their CPF money to pay for their homes bought before disbursing the balance under HDB loan so they can reduce the interest payable to the person's accounts. This is an evil system indeed.
I'm looking at the perspective of putting $200k in investment property rather than CPF.
If a person is 35 years old and he invests $200k to buy a $600k MM apartment, the monthly installment is $1900 + $400 maintenance + tax. The current market rental rate should be sufficient to cover this if the loan is over 30 years at 4% interest. So by the time he retires at 65 years old, he should be getting more than $1900 every month rental income (due to inflation) for the rest of his life + a fully paid up property. This is way better than keeping the cash in CPF.
CPF Life is designed by the government to support the aging population, so when the population actually ages if the government cannot reverse the trend, then he will receive smaller than expected payout that may not cover inflated costs of living.
The key difference is in property the investor has a hand in determining the future retirement payout by setting a rental rate to tax the current working population (tenant). On the other hand CPF Life payout is subject to government's decision based on how many people is still working when the investor retires. The first option is more risky but promises a better retirement fund, and I'm one of the many aiming for this option.
Bottomline...CPF=heads i win tails u loose...:cool:
Ultimately someone has to pay for supporting the aging population. I'm worried if our CPF can actually sustain itself. The quality of life for our future generation has to go down to pay for the elderly, unless we accept more young foreigners to work here and tax them heavier.
Ultimately someone has to pay for supporting the aging population. I'm worried if our CPF can actually sustain itself. The quality of life for our future generation has to go down to pay for the elderly, unless we accept more young foreigners to work here and tax them heavier.
that's not entirely true! there is an alternative - having less surplus each year is sustainable as well for the nation. this option means temasek and gic have less ammo to waste
Ok regulators since no one answered ur question, I will try.
First and foremost, take this, CPF money was meant to be a pension like contribution. Therefore it was NEVER your money. You contribute to the collective pool of the nation. Period. Every society requires ppl contributing to some form of pension system. SG is no exception.
However, the old guards fully believe western style pension system does not work (which I'm glad u agree), so they tweak the system such that you are given quasi entitlement of the "money". The most important part of it is: you yourself arer responsible for what you can enjoy at retirement. So the more your contribute, the more you can enjoy later. This is fundamental, because it removes the element of "doing nothing and get paid" phenomenon. This encourages everyone to work hard,and remove free loaders.
It is exactly because this money were never meant to be really yours, when you take it out, you are really loaning it from the national pension pool. Of course you must return with interest.
Now because of the "entitlement" , many ppl have the false impression that these money are REALLY theirs. And demand this and that why I cannot use my own money. No they are not our money. They at our entitlement. If you only want all as your own money, you are demanding a society with no pension system and every one is on his own. For a collective pension system to exist, you must force all to participate. You cannot allow the smarter ones to opt out.
Lastly why medisave acct has restrictions buying medical insurance ? Simple : there are way too many unnecessary, overpriced, cheating kind of "insurance" around. Insurance companies are in this trade to con as many ppl as possible to buy unnecessary policies. Without a strict regulation, all the medisave money will be wasted on these unscrupulous agents/insurance companies. Therefore every medi insurance program must be approved by CPF board 1st. This gives the 1st check to ensure such policies are meaningful and not bullshit.
CPF is NOT a state pension fund. If so, then all citizens should have universal, free healthcare, a national insurance, free education up to tertiary level, unemployment welfare, etc.
why can't we have a national insurance like in USA, UK, Taiwan, etc? more purchasing power and better coverage for citizens. SDP's alternative healthcare plan is better than our current system. 15 years ago, healthcare system was split into two major clusters to bring about 'competition', in the fake belief that costs will be brought down. did it?
if the monies in our CPF isn't ours, then this should be termed TAX. and if this is so, our personal tax rate shoots up to at least 36%, which is slightly lower than a nordic country, but yet WITHOUT the accompanying benefits.
furthermore, Singapore is the richest country in the world per capita. let's have a poll - who feels that our quality of life is on par with switzerland?
to the govt if u use the money to buy house then they can't use it for their investment so don't pay you the interest lor fair enough right
Regulators
22-09-12, 09:02
They don't pay you interest but thru can't force you to pay interest on your own money
to the govt if u use the money to buy house then they can't use it for their investment so don't pay you the interest lor fair enough right
that's not entirely true! there is an alternative - having less surplus each year is sustainable as well for the nation. this option means temasek and gic have less ammo to waste
Def need more surplus. In times of crisis, e surplus cld b lesser than what is put in, juz like firesales. Overseas investments can go down in value as well. Need strong reserve to deter speculative attacks. But more can b done to curb unnecessary spending like Brompton bikes.
Def need more surplus. In times of crisis, e surplus cld b lesser than what is put in, juz like firesales. Overseas investments can go down in value as well. Need strong reserve to deter speculative attacks. But more can b done to curb unnecessary spending like Brompton bikes.
we already have a freaking truckload of reserves and surpluses. we can definitely do with less.
brompton bikes are ikan bilis. look at the astronomical losses from ABC kindergarten, BoA, Citibank, shin corp (plus many more)!! even during the 1997 asian crisis, SGD was relatively safe from speculative bets from currency raiders. only countries without a sound foundation were badly hit.
phantom_opera
22-09-12, 09:46
if you think Western pension fund is sustainable ... you are dreaming
in countries with natural resources, it is simply sustained through digging resources, in countries without natural resources, it is sustained through low interest rate loan, it all work until you run out of resources or suddenly the bond holders become vigilantes
======= quote from Zero Hedge ========
Moments ago we saw the following amusing headline crossing the BBG:
ILLINOIS TEACHERS' PENSION FUND CUTS (Future expected) RATE OF RETURN TO 8% FROM 8.5%
It's amusing because these are the same teachers who were demanding, and received, higher pay - 17% higher over four years in fact - following a several day strike. It is even more amusing considering that in a fiscal year in which we saw QE2, Operation Twist 1 and 2, and LTRO 1 and 2, the nation's largest pension fund, Calpers, managed to eek out a measly 1% gain (and this is including the end of June surge following the then announced European bailout which turned out to be yet another dud). It is, however sadly, most amusing, because it may be a harbinger of something truly sad: the advent of the "PIIG bailout" to America, when a US state demands a Federal bailout. We have seen how eager Europe has been to bailout its insolvent nations. We are next about to see just how "united" the US is when its own solidarity is tested as state after state repeat the European bailout experience. But hey: at least we have the dollar so all should be well.
=> at the end, inflation will be used to give that 8% return with USD SGD hitting 1 to 1 soon :p
I'm looking at the perspective of putting $200k in investment property rather than CPF.
..........
perhap investing in a property for rental income can work at individual level.
what if the majority of CPF holders decide to do so? would the concept break down?
perhap investing in a property for rental income can work at individual level.
what if the majority of CPF holders decide to do so? would the concept break down?
Don't quite understand. Please elaborate.
how is not paying accrued interest different from overdeclaration/underdeclaration resale price of HDB flat?
all 3 take CPF money in advance.
Regulators
22-09-12, 09:59
We can have more reserves but with no transparency and proper accountability also no use. Just ask yourself how accountable is the government with the way they spend our money n the way they pay themselves? To have ppl like tintin in the government, making losses with our money through bad investments, overspending on youth olympics etc etc, who is to suffer? when people in govt make mistakes, it is always an honest mistake that is never big enough to warrant a sacking on the minister. Why is balakrishnan still a minister when he more than exceeded our budget for yog which is enough help so many needy ppl in our country?
Def need more surplus. In times of crisis, e surplus cld b lesser than what is put in, juz like firesales. Overseas investments can go down in value as well. Need strong reserve to deter speculative attacks. But more can b done to curb unnecessary spending like Brompton bikes.
Don't quite understand. Please elaborate.
demand and supply.
lets say there are 1.5 million working. instead of using CPF as pension, they decide to invest in rental property.
if assume all are married, there are 750k working couples, they want to have 1 property for own stay and 1 property for rental income.
so in the market, there will be like 750k rental properties. now where to get 750k tenants?
all these figures are just make up, feel free to bash.
Regulators
22-09-12, 10:10
Western pension fund is crap, CPF is equally crap. Period.
if you think Western pension fund is sustainable ... you are dreaming
in countries with natural resources, it is simply sustained through digging resources, in countries without natural resources, it is sustained through low interest rate loan, it all work until you run out of resources or suddenly the bond holders become vigilantes
======= quote from Zero Hedge ========
Moments ago we saw the following amusing headline crossing the BBG:
ILLINOIS TEACHERS' PENSION FUND CUTS (Future expected) RATE OF RETURN TO 8% FROM 8.5%
It's amusing because these are the same teachers who were demanding, and received, higher pay - 17% higher over four years in fact - following a several day strike. It is even more amusing considering that in a fiscal year in which we saw QE2, Operation Twist 1 and 2, and LTRO 1 and 2, the nation's largest pension fund, Calpers, managed to eek out a measly 1% gain (and this is including the end of June surge following the then announced European bailout which turned out to be yet another dud). It is, however sadly, most amusing, because it may be a harbinger of something truly sad: the advent of the "PIIG bailout" to America, when a US state demands a Federal bailout. We have seen how eager Europe has been to bailout its insolvent nations. We are next about to see just how "united" the US is when its own solidarity is tested as state after state repeat the European bailout experience. But hey: at least we have the dollar so all should be well.
=> at the end, inflation will be used to give that 8% return with USD SGD hitting 1 to 1 soon :p
We can have more reserves but with no transparency and proper accountability also no use. Just ask yourself how accountable is the government with the way they spend our money n the way they pay themselves? To have ppl like tintin in the government, making losses with our money through bad investments, overspending on youth olympics etc etc, who is to suffer? when people in govt make mistakes, it is always an honest mistake that is never big enough to warrant a sacking on the minister. Why is balakrishnan still a minister when he more than exceeded our budget for yog which is enough help so many needy ppl in our country?
Strategic reason total reserve cannot b revealed. B careful this forum is monitored... :p
Regulators
22-09-12, 10:14
strategic reasons takes precedence over transparency? :doh:
Strategic reason total reserve cannot b revealed. B careful this forum is monitored... :p
demand and supply.
lets say there are 1.5 million working. instead of using CPF as pension, they decide to invest in rental property.
if assume all are married, there are 750k working couples, they want to have 1 property for own stay and 1 property for rental income.
so in the market, there will be like 750k rental properties. now where to get 750k tenants?
all these figures are just make up, feel free to bash.
Oic. First determine how much the household need to buy a private (do your own assumption). Say you put in 100k. Go to salary.sg and determine how many % is in this bracket. Then you can come up with the number.
Btw, they are only 200k+ private properties. Rest are hdb.
....
======= quote from Zero Hedge ========
Moments ago we saw the following amusing headline crossing the BBG:
ILLINOIS TEACHERS' PENSION FUND CUTS (Future expected) RATE OF RETURN TO 8% FROM 8.5%.....
from the same article, i want to be an educator, $800.000 pension every year.
the top 100 educator has abt +800mil spread over the years.
perhap investing in a property for rental income can work at individual level.
what if the majority of CPF holders decide to do so? would the concept break down?
There is a min sum to guard aganist catastrophic failure. Anyway stamp duties n Pte Pty taxes will also make govt happy.
Oic. First determine how much the household need to buy a private (do your own assumption). Say you put in 100k. Go to salary.sg and determine how many % is in this bracket. Then you can come up with the number.
Btw, they are only 200k+ private properties. Rest are hdb.
yes, because majority of people still have not decide to depend on rental property income as their retirement.
there is alternative way for lower income group
honey, lets divorce. you buy hdb, i buy hdb. we stay in 1 one and can rent out the other for retirement.
perhaps you can try to imagine what would happen if majority decide to do so? or just because of some income limitation etc, you think they would give up?
No is growing if you look at hdb when they change the rule of MOP to 5 years from 10 years. Now, lots of owners. Of PCs are planning for this option.
yes, because majority of people still have not decide to depend on rental property income as their retirement.
there is alternative way for lower income group
honey, lets divorce. you buy hdb, i buy hdb. we stay in 1 one and can rent out the other for retirement.
perhaps you can try to imagine what would happen if majority decide to do so? or just because of some income limitation etc, you think they would give up?
perhap investing in a property for rental income can work at individual level.
what if the majority of CPF holders decide to do so? would the concept break down?
then there will be another CM..simple:cool:
Property prices will shoot through the roof first! $3000 psf in OCR here it comes!
yes, because majority of people still have not decide to depend on rental property income as their retirement.
there is alternative way for lower income group
honey, lets divorce. you buy hdb, i buy hdb. we stay in 1 one and can rent out the other for retirement.
perhaps you can try to imagine what would happen if majority decide to do so? or just because of some income limitation etc, you think they would give up?
Strategic reason total reserve cannot b revealed. B careful this forum is monitored... :p
most of us understand the need for some opaque-ness, but shouldn't someone be made accountable for stupid, loss-making investments? hey, that's your monies and mine that they are squandering away.
http://youtu.be/HtkL5Ldpk-g
@regulators: western pension no good, CPF no good. The best is do it yourself rite ? Sorry too bad, a society cannot allow that. The forced contribution especially from th more successful ones made up the size needed. You keep on complaining why you need to pay back interest. I told u it is a loan from our national pool, of course it has to be returned with interst. U take it as the price that u pay for allowing u to use CPF for pty investment. Remember this is not your money. The alternative will be not allowed to use the CPF money at all. What do you prefer ?
@eng: 1st of all CPF is pension like, but it is not tax, as it is not a revenue of the gov. 2nd u automatically assume if u pay 50% tax u should deserve free medical/welfare etc. why ? A country ca afford this and that because it is rich enough. SG had just leapt out of poverty circle of Asia, it is by no means a rich country. Huge reserve is never enough. Without it S$ will be worthless. You take it for granted that 1US $ = 1.22 S$ is a matter of course. No. It's a matter of solid efforts not chance. Without the huge firewall (reserves, no nonsense system, no deficit budget), SG can collapse within days. 3rd I know every one just loves to bash GIC or TH for making this and that loss. How do u know overall we did not make any profit ? Investment is not bao jiat one. You only see the highly publicized loss on recent years. You never see the huge profit they made in many other deals.
And transparency u want ? Sorry if they have to disclose every transaction to public, not only we will lose opportunity, we will even be targeted. No, these ppl are accountable to the various boards and management, not the man on the street. I know you dun like it. But this is just the way. A sovereign fund cannot afford to showcase its activities to everyone. And dun forget the grneral public do not have enough knowledge to even judge the deals. For example GIC's Citi deal was such a good deal, it ends up being talked by ppl on the street (u included) as if we lost a huge chunk of money. It's the total opposite. In banking circle we know what deals are good, what are not. Average joe can never judge it.
phantom_opera
22-09-12, 20:07
3rd I know every one just loves to bash GIC or TH for making this and that loss. How do u know overall we did not make any profit ? Investment is not bao jiat one. You only see the highly publicized loss on recent years. You never see the huge profit they made in many other deals.
GIC made tonnes of money during the NASDAQ boom, they used to be a major shareholder of EMC ... the share price went from a few dollars to 100+ with a few splits along the way ... go figure
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AEMC&ei=rqldUJDfJMi2kgXksAE
@regulators: western pension no good, CPF no good. The best is do it yourself rite ? Sorry too bad, a society cannot allow that. The forced contribution especially from th more successful ones made up the size needed. You keep on complaining why you need to pay back interest. I told u it is a loan from our national pool, of course it has to be returned with interst. U take it as the price that u pay for allowing u to use CPF for pty investment. Remember this is not your money. The alternative will be not allowed to use the CPF money at all. What do you prefer ?
@eng: 1st of all CPF is pension like, but it is not tax, as it is not a revenue of the gov. 2nd u automatically assume if u pay 50% tax u should deserve free medical/welfare etc. why ? A country ca afford this and that because it is rich enough. SG had just leapt out of poverty circle of Asia, it is by no means a rich country. Huge reserve is never enough. Without it S$ will be worthless. You take it for granted that 1US $ = 1.22 S$ is a matter of course. No. It's a matter of solid efforts not chance. Without the huge firewall (reserves, no nonsense system, no deficit budget), SG can collapse within days. 3rd I know every one just loves to bash GIC or TH for making this and that loss. How do u know overall we did not make any profit ? Investment is not bao jiat one. You only see the highly publicized loss on recent years. You never see the huge profit they made in many other deals.
And transparency u want ? Sorry if they have to disclose every transaction to public, not only we will lose opportunity, we will even be targeted. No, these ppl are accountable to the various boards and management, not the man on the street. I know you dun like it. But this is just the way. A sovereign fund cannot afford to showcase its activities to everyone. And dun forget the grneral public do not have enough knowledge to even judge the deals. For example GIC's Citi deal was such a good deal, it ends up being talked by ppl on the street (u included) as if we lost a huge chunk of money. It's the total opposite. In banking circle we know what deals are good, what are not. Average joe can never judge it.
nobody said western style pension is good, and that's not the point of this thread.
now you claim CPF is pension-like. does it pay like a pension?! no, cabinet ministers just voted to end the pension system, in case you don't read on news.
then you claim it's not tax. not pension, not tax, not government revenue?! eh, call a spade a spade lah. don't give BS like the politicians. if it's not our money, then it's tax and revenue to government coffers! simple as that, or your mind can't comprehend simple logic??
i never suggest raiding reserves to fund national expenditure. what i did suggest is that we can do with less surpluses and spend more on social programs. go figure out why our healthcare expenditure is one of the lowest amongst the developed nations. huge reserve is never enough?! then when is enough, enough?! why not let's have 10million souls on this island? how about 15million, if that isn't enough? balance is the key! so what if we have huge reserves and the richest country in the world per capita? we still see elderly piling the streets for trash to sell, cleaning loos and struggling to make ends meet. how about having a better safety social net for the less privileged? losing $7.4BILLION on a UBS deal alone can fund social programs for 10 - 20 years. so, please don't give me BS about having huge reserves.
lastly, nobody wanted a full disclosure. c'mon, listed companies don't list every single deal they make and even when they disclose stuff that makes a material impact on books, they don't disclose IRR, risk assessment, etc etc. being accountable and transparent does not equate to full disclosure! is this even too hard for you to comprehend?!
cpf=control peoples finances:D:D:D
Allthepies
22-09-12, 22:08
@regulators: western pension no good, CPF no good. The best is do it yourself rite ? Sorry too bad, a society cannot allow that. The forced contribution especially from th more successful ones made up the size needed. You keep on complaining why you need to pay back interest. I told u it is a loan from our national pool, of course it has to be returned with interst. U take it as the price that u pay for allowing u to use CPF for pty investment. Remember this is not your money. The alternative will be not allowed to use the CPF money at all. What do you prefer ?
@eng: 1st of all CPF is pension like, but it is not tax, as it is not a revenue of the gov. 2nd u automatically assume if u pay 50% tax u should deserve free medical/welfare etc. why ? A country ca afford this and that because it is rich enough. SG had just leapt out of poverty circle of Asia, it is by no means a rich country. Huge reserve is never enough. Without it S$ will be worthless. You take it for granted that 1US $ = 1.22 S$ is a matter of course. No. It's a matter of solid efforts not chance. Without the huge firewall (reserves, no nonsense system, no deficit budget), SG can collapse within days. 3rd I know every one just loves to bash GIC or TH for making this and that loss. How do u know overall we did not make any profit ? Investment is not bao jiat one. You only see the highly publicized loss on recent years. You never see the huge profit they made in many other deals.
And transparency u want ? Sorry if they have to disclose every transaction to public, not only we will lose opportunity, we will even be targeted. No, these ppl are accountable to the various boards and management, not the man on the street. I know you dun like it. But this is just the way. A sovereign fund cannot afford to showcase its activities to everyone. And dun forget the grneral public do not have enough knowledge to even judge the deals. For example GIC's Citi deal was such a good deal, it ends up being talked by ppl on the street (u included) as if we lost a huge chunk of money. It's the total opposite. In banking circle we know what deals are good, what are not. Average joe can never judge it.
+50 like. :cheers1: :cheers1:
Allthepies
22-09-12, 22:16
I have to repeat this statement again: CPF is meant as a form of savings for a significant group of people who do notin save or financially illiterate or have no idea of retirement planning......
Our forumers here belong to a small percentage of Singaporeans who know the importance of savings, investments and retirement planning. CPF is not importan to us but it is important to the rest of Singaporeans......
I have to repeat this statement again: CPF is meant as a form of savings for a significant group of people who do notin save or financially illiterate or have no idea of retirement planning......
Our forumers here belong to a small percentage of Singaporeans who know the importance of savings, investments and retirement planning. CPF is not importan to us but it is important to the rest of Singaporeans......
namely ah beng..ah te and Ah kau...:D:D:D
or forgot ah mat...:D:D:D
Allthepies
22-09-12, 22:44
namely ah beng..ah te and Ah kau...:D:D:D
or forgot ah mat...:D:D:D
Ha ha, the list is longer though :D :D
phantom_opera
22-09-12, 22:45
CPF is quite important to me .... I estimated to have about half a million when i reach 55 so it may form 20% of my retirement fund be it annuity or just pure RA
like amk said I just treat it as 30y bond
Regulators
23-09-12, 00:11
The useless YOG expenditure itself enough to build hospital, not to mention the UBS, ABC learning centres and other losses. I can't believe there are people out there that sing praises for a system that force them to contribute their hard earned money into some pension-like fund to get peanuts thrown at them in return. What better evidence of brainwashing do we have than what we witness here. :doh:
nobody said western style pension is good, and that's not the point of this thread.
now you claim CPF is pension-like. does it pay like a pension?! no, cabinet ministers just voted to end the pension system, in case you don't read on news.
then you claim it's not tax. not pension, not tax, not government revenue?! eh, call a spade a spade lah. don't give BS like the politicians. if it's not our money, then it's tax and revenue to government coffers! simple as that, or your mind can't comprehend simple logic??
i never suggest raiding reserves to fund national expenditure. what i did suggest is that we can do with less surpluses and spend more on social programs. go figure out why our healthcare expenditure is one of the lowest amongst the developed nations. huge reserve is never enough?! then when is enough, enough?! why not let's have 10million souls on this island? how about 15million, if that isn't enough? balance is the key! so what if we have huge reserves and the richest country in the world per capita? we still see elderly piling the streets for trash to sell, cleaning loos and struggling to make ends meet. how about having a better safety social net for the less privileged? losing $7.4BILLION on a UBS deal alone can fund social programs for 10 - 20 years. so, please don't give me BS about having huge reserves.
lastly, nobody wanted a full disclosure. c'mon, listed companies don't list every single deal they make and even when they disclose stuff that makes a material impact on books, they don't disclose IRR, risk assessment, etc etc. being accountable and transparent does not equate to full disclosure! is this even too hard for you to comprehend?!
The useless YOG expenditure itself enough to build hospital, not to mention the UBS, ABC learning centres and other losses. I can't believe there are people out there that sing praises for a system that force them to contribute their hard earned money into some pension-like fund to get peanuts thrown at them in return. What better evidence of brainwashing do we have than what we witness here. :doh:
we lucky singapore got no natural disaster...:rolleyes:...but hope there is no human disaster..:D:D:D
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Gen-Info/Con-Rates/ContriRa.htm
Private contribution is 36%,
Ministries,Statutory Bodies contribution is only 27%.
Thanks,
Richard
Is it true that people working in "public" doesn't need to pay cash in government hospitals (even as "private" patients)?
Anyone has more details?
Thanks,
Richard
"With Workfare, which supplements the wages of low-income workers, the IRR is even higher – at 93 per cent”.
I have to laugh at this.
1. If you are getting Workfare, are you retired?
2. If your pay was so low, you could barely make ends meet when you were young and healthy; maybe you need 150% to survive when you get old and sick. 93% of a few hundred dollars will not see you well.
Thanks,
Richard
suddenly I remember there was this system in pre or post war Singapore where villagers pool their money regularly and those needy ones will then draw from it like a loan and return with interest .....
there's a term for this which I keep cannot recall....
"With Workfare, which supplements the wages of low-income workers, the IRR is even higher – at 93 per cent”.
I have to laugh at this.
1. If you are getting Workfare, are you retired?
2. If your pay was so low, you could barely make ends meet when you were young and healthy; maybe you need 150% to survive when you get old and sick. 93% of a few hundred dollars will not see you well.
Thanks,
Richard
when i say the IRR of 93%, i chuckled......
suddenly I remember there was this system in pre or post war Singapore where villagers pool their money regularly and those needy ones will then draw from it like a loan and return with interest .....
there's a term for this which I keep cannot recall....
it's tontine
I have to repeat this statement again: CPF is meant as a form of savings for a significant group of people who do notin save or financially illiterate or have no idea of retirement planning......
Our forumers here belong to a small percentage of Singaporeans who know the importance of savings, investments and retirement planning. CPF is not importan to us but it is important to the rest of Singaporeans......
nobody said CPF isn't important.
Garment is like our guardian in the CPF system. Ensure that we do keep some money and not overspend. They are certainly investing our money. Hope they still have money in there after so many failed investment in the last few years.
@eng: think u mistook me on one thing. When I said "pension", I meant the collective social contribution system. This is a model adapted by every country. Only difference is SG gives u a quasi ownership of it. This concept of collective pool for society welfare is rooted in modern government. What SG gov did, is cleverly making it personal responsibility ( or liability) , even though the contribution part is the same. Actally doing this is very clever on the gov itself: it totally relieves the gov of any future liability. The biggest problem of the western model is that, their future liability is ballooning, and their model is inherently non sustainable. SG system has no future liability on this, since your own pension contribution goes back to yourself. All gov needs to do is to ensure current account surplus. Such system is, by design, ensuring the gov should not have any budget deficit. Of course gov cannot be relieved totally of any responsibility. That's where the minimum 2.5% 4% stuff are about. They at obliged to deliver that.
@regulators, u r not the only one that can do better on CPF returns. I also can. But for a society to function, the gov cannot allow such "opt out". You are subsidizing others in a way.
phantom_opera
23-09-12, 10:57
The 1st 60k yielding 5pc is not bad, especially if interest stays low for long long time, ntuc income 3.65pc for 15y only leh
Garment is like our guardian in the CPF system. Ensure that we do keep some money and not overspend. They are certainly investing our money. Hope they still have money in there after so many failed investment in the last few years.
what i know is it smell like 'ponzi' scheme to me..
wait until something like what happen in 2008.... then everyone will know the truth behind it
thx bro engr..... !!!! yes TONTINE
Regulators
23-09-12, 13:24
To say that society cannot function without cpf is a sweeping statement. Since the majority of people are using cpf monies instead of cash to pay for their house every month (which is the case), are you saying the purpose of cpf is to penalise people for nothing? Then everyone who uses cpf to pay their housing mortgage must be real goons in that case since they are denying themselves of a chance to receive that 2.5% interest from govt, am I not right? Your idea of a person being penalised for drawing from a pool (in fact using his own money) is simply bs, sorry to say. The govt in the first place never said that cpf is a pension-like fund n wouldn't dare to. If it was indeed a pension-like fund, then cpf would have an obligation to publish yearly reports of how that pool is utilised, but did they? that is why so many people are so unhappy with that lack of transparency.
@regulators, u r not the only one that can do better on CPF returns. I also can. But for a society to function, the gov cannot allow such "opt out". You are subsidizing ...
CPF is like the Bank.
There are those who think a bank is a place to deposit their hard earn money and they are pay interest and there are those who think bank is the place where they loan as much as possible and make money.
My father is the one who think Bank(CPF) is the place where you deposit the money and refused to loan from the Bank(CPF). 5 room HDB during his time cost 50k and he has 100k in the Bank(CPF). He refused to loan from the Bank(CPF) and happily staying in his SGD 6,600 HDB 3 Room and thinking the money in the Bank(CPF) will let him retire comfortably. Guess whether is he living comfortably after his retirement.
The Son on the other hand think the Bank(CPF) is the place where he loan as much as he can and make lots of money.
In 1988, after 4 years of working with little saving in the Bank(CPF) he brought a 4 room HDB in Kim Keat Ave. 5 years later he loan 20k from his father and buy his second 5 room HDB for 250k. His father scolded him for buying the 5 room when his family size is only 3. He have only one son. He got his 5 room HDB and sell his 4 room and make 180K in 1995. In 2006 he brought his first PC for 535,000 and don't dare to tell his father because his father will be worrying how is he going to pay for the PC. In 2010 he invite his father to his PC house warming and the father was very happy and ask him how can he loan from the bank, by then his father already retired.:beats-me-man:
@eng: think u mistook me on one thing. When I said "pension", I meant the collective social contribution system. This is a model adapted by every country. Only difference is SG gives u a quasi ownership of it. This concept of collective pool for society welfare is rooted in modern government. What SG gov did, is cleverly making it personal responsibility ( or liability) , even though the contribution part is the same. Actally doing this is very clever on the gov itself: it totally relieves the gov of any future liability. The biggest problem of the western model is that, their future liability is ballooning, and their model is inherently non sustainable. SG system has no future liability on this, since your own pension contribution goes back to yourself. All gov needs to do is to ensure current account surplus. Such system is, by design, ensuring the gov should not have any budget deficit. Of course gov cannot be relieved totally of any responsibility. That's where the minimum 2.5% 4% stuff are about. They at obliged to deliver that.
@regulators, u r not the only one that can do better on CPF returns. I also can. But for a society to function, the gov cannot allow such "opt out". You are subsidizing others in a way.
if it's pension as what u claim, then we shouldn't be able to bequeath it to beneficiaries when we pass on.
nope, we are not subsidizing others. our politicians have repeatedly state that we aren't a welfare state.
Fire is a good servant but a bad master
Fire is a good servant but a bad master
just like money $$....:2cents:
just looked at my Title Deed for private, CPF Board is stated as a party with Interests.
No sure what is the implication when passing it to next generation.
I shouldn't have used any CPF "money" for it.
Thanks,
Richard
Fire is a good servant but a bad master
just like politics
@regulators: define for me a model where the society can function without collective contributions, and we see if it is indeed better. The ppl creating this model were no less smarter than you alright ? For me personally I dun know what is the best solution. It is certainly much better than the western one. This is already very good.
Those using CPF for housing are denying themselves the 2.5% yield ? Yes. Penalizing is not the word. Ensuring u dun recklessly lose it is. The idea is, this money must remain for your retirement. If you think you are smarter and take it out for your own investment, then better be sure you can deliver at least the same return as of you leave it with CPF. That is why you must return with 2.5%. If you cannot even deliver that, then better dun do it at all.
I sense both you and eng just simply cannot accept that this CPF money is not your money. Almost every argument is from the angle that this is your money. Let me rephrase it. CPF money is your money ONLY when it is used for your retirement at old age. For ALL other applications like investments, you are taking out a loan from it.
@regulators: define for me a model where the society can function without collective contributions, and we see if it is indeed better. The ppl creating this model were no less smarter than you alright ? For me personally I dun know what is the best solution. It is certainly much better than the western one. This is already very good.
Those using CPF for housing are denying themselves the 2.5% yield ? Yes. Penalizing is not the word. Ensuring u dun recklessly lose it is. The idea is, this money must remain for your retirement. If you think you are smarter and take it out for your own investment, then better be sure you can deliver at least the same return as of you leave it with CPF. That is why you must return with 2.5%. If you cannot even deliver that, then better dun do it at all.
I sense both you and eng just simply cannot accept that this CPF money is not your money. Almost every argument is from the angle that this is your money. Let me rephrase it. CPF money is your money ONLY when it is used for your retirement at old age. For ALL other applications like investments, you are taking out a loan from it.
seriously, u can't get it into your head?! tell me why can we bequeath our CPF to beneficiaries if it isn't our monies? legally impossible.
To me the biggest problem of CPF today is the 2.5% yield. When it was originally created, the rate was to track prevailing interest rates. And that was supposed to track inflation. Today, the whole market is totally distorted. Conventional economy theory no longer hold. How can a 6% inflationary economy have a 0% interest rate ? Gov and MAS really have to work out some solution. Gov has the duty to deliver reasonable yield on this collective pool of funding.
Regulators
23-09-12, 18:56
majority of people are buying hdb flats not with the prior intention to invest, the first thing on their minds is to home their family. Lky has also stressed for ordinary hdb folks not to sell their flats as it is a retirement asset, are you then saying that these folks using cpf money to pay for hdb is not doing something positive towards their retirement? I think your logic is off the tangent.
Those using CPF for housing are denying themselves the 2.5% yield ? Yes. Penalizing is not the word. Ensuring u dun recklessly lose it is. The idea is, this money must remain for your retirement. If you think you are smarter and take it out for your own investment, then better be sure you can deliver at least the same return as of you leave it with CPF. That is why you must return with 2.5%. If you cannot even deliver that, then better dun do it at all.
I sense both you and eng just simply cannot accept that this CPF money is not your money. Almost every argument is from the angle that this is your money. Let me rephrase it. CPF money is your money ONLY when it is used for your retirement at old age. For ALL other applications like investments, you are taking out a loan from it.
seriously, u can't get it into your head?! tell me why can we bequeath our CPF to beneficiaries if it isn't our monies? legally impossible.
Gov make it legally possible, and also in almost every other way to appear as your money. (for example allowing u to take out when u leave the country) isn't this why it is a better pension system ? Why won't you try to "get it into your head" that in this society you HAVE to contribute something ? You prefer contribute with no ownership at all, or a contributin that you have some degree of ownership ?
majority of people are buying hdb flats not with the prior intention to invest, the first thing on their minds is to home their family. Lky has also stressed for ordinary hdb folks not to sell their flats as it is a retirement asset, are you then saying that these folks using cpf money to pay for hdb is not doing something positive towards their retirement? I think your logic is off the tangent.
I din understand your argument.
You are not supposed to use CPF for investment at all in the first place.
Then gov gave in to popular demand, allow it so ppl can "afford a pty". Later your pty became an investment, you sell for a profit, and you cannot return the same rate of return ? Gov made a concession on the CPF so you can invest with it. I dun think it is wrong to demand you to at least have the same return.
Gov make it legally possible, and also in almost every other way to appear as your money. (for example allowing u to take out when u leave the country) isn't this why it is a better pension system ? Why won't you try to "get it into your head" that in this society you HAVE to contribute something ? You prefer contribute with no ownership at all, or a contributin that you have some degree of ownership ?
then go consult a lawyer. law 101 - to bequeath an asset, the person must own it. that makes the person the owner.
duh :banghead:
Regulators
23-09-12, 19:56
Kenobi Wan said hdb not an investment and nobody in the gahmen said hdb is an investment, only you, that is why i said ur logic off tangent. hdb flats can be lucrative and the term investment is loosely used on it, but it is never an investment asset class to the gahmen, so you are wrong to say that cpf monies used to buy an hdb flat is for investment purposes. Our grandfather LKY and gahmen recognise that hdb is for retirement, which means that whoever that use cpf monies to pay for an hdb flat is paying towards retirement and not investment. From your posts, i take it that you do not know much about how hdb operates, perhaps because you have always been a pte pty owner. Do you even know that it is a prerequisite for everyone taking an hdb loan to firstly exhaust all their cpf monies before they are allowed to loan the balance from hdb? Is this a choice people have or something forced on the people, you ask yourself. If what you say about hdb flats being an investment makes any sense at all, then wouldn't the gahmen be forcing people to use their own money in an investment and not retirement?? Do think about it.
I din understand your argument.
You are not supposed to use CPF for investment at all in the first place.
Then gov gave in to popular demand, allow it so ppl can "afford a pty". Later your pty became an investment, you sell for a profit, and you cannot return the same rate of return ? Gov made a concession on the CPF so you can invest with it. I dun think it is wrong to demand you to at least have the same return.
@eng, it's alright we agree to disagree.
@regulators: u loan from CPF to buy HDB. If u never sell to realize a profit, you are not required to return anything to CPF are you ? Let say 30yrs down the road you retire, and want to cash out your HDB for retirement, even though you are supposed to return with 2.5% to CPF, you get ur money back straightaway, no ? So the "forced repayment" is moot isn't it ? I think this is consistent with the idea ur HDB is supposed to be ur primary residence and not for trading.
Regulators
23-09-12, 20:20
Forced payment is forced payment, what is there to moot about? If a person has the cash to pay for the flat in full and chooses to keep the cash in cpf to collect interest, hdb will still tell the person to utilise all cpf monies before extending the loan to him, this is clear cut. the spate of CMs have already halted speculative activity so i don't get what you mean by trading. In your 30yr example, you are assuming people sell their hdb flat on their exact day of retirement, what if a person retires early like me?
@eng, it's alright we agree to disagree.
@regulators: u loan from CPF to buy HDB. If u never sell to realize a profit, you are not required to return anything to CPF are you ? Let say 30yrs down the road you retire, and want to cash out your HDB for retirement, even though you are supposed to return with 2.5% to CPF, you get ur money back straightaway, no ? So the "forced repayment" is moot isn't it ? I think this is consistent with the idea ur HDB is supposed to be ur primary residence and not for trading.
Allthepies
23-09-12, 21:33
Forced payment is forced payment, what is there to moot about? If a person has the cash to pay for the flat in full and chooses to keep the cash in cpf to collect interest, hdb will still tell the person to utilise all cpf monies before extending the loan to him, this is clear cut. the spate of CMs have already halted speculative activity so i don't get what you mean by trading. In your 30yr example, you are assuming people sell their hdb flat on their exact day of retirement, what if a person retires early like me?
U r a successful person, an exception. The rule was written to "protect" the majority group of people who retire at normal retirement age.
Even u retire early also doesn't mean tat when u reach the retirement age u will have some money left for ur retirement, tat is why the CPF money need to remain in CPF as a minimum backup plan for ur retirement
Regulators
23-09-12, 22:17
You are not following the line of argument . The contention here is why singaporeans need to pay back interest to cpf after selling their hdb flat when they are forced to use cpf to buy flats before taking hdb loan n not according to their own will? hdb flats are not investment properties even though amk contends it is. hdb flats are for retirement and cpf monies used to pay hdb flats should not require people to return any accrued interest.
U r a successful person, an exception. The rule was written to "protect" the majority group of people who retire at normal retirement age.
Even u retire early also doesn't mean tat when u reach the retirement age u will have some money left for ur retirement, tat is why the CPF money need to remain in CPF as a minimum backup plan for ur retirement
phantom_opera
23-09-12, 22:37
@regulators ... u really dun know ah? This is to prevent lonely old Singaporeans money from being swallowed by chiobo overseas after being sweet-talked into selling his roof ... at least lots of money must go back to CPF for his retirement
@regulators ... u really dun know ah? This is to prevent lonely old Singaporeans money from being swallowed by chiobo overseas after being sweet-talked into selling his roof ... at least lots of money must go back to CPF for his retirement
go geylang can see a lot of LIVe examples...:scared-4:
@regulators: western pension no good, CPF no good. The best is do it yourself rite ? Sorry too bad, a society cannot allow that. The forced contribution especially from th more successful ones made up the size needed. You keep on complaining why you need to pay back interest. I told u it is a loan from our national pool, of course it has to be returned with interst. U take it as the price that u pay for allowing u to use CPF for pty investment. Remember this is not your money. The alternative will be not allowed to use the CPF money at all. What do you prefer ?
@eng: 1st of all CPF is pension like, but it is not tax, as it is not a revenue of the gov. 2nd u automatically assume if u pay 50% tax u should deserve free medical/welfare etc. why ? A country ca afford this and that because it is rich enough. SG had just leapt out of poverty circle of Asia, it is by no means a rich country. Huge reserve is never enough. Without it S$ will be worthless. You take it for granted that 1US $ = 1.22 S$ is a matter of course. No. It's a matter of solid efforts not chance. Without the huge firewall (reserves, no nonsense system, no deficit budget), SG can collapse within days. 3rd I know every one just loves to bash GIC or TH for making this and that loss. How do u know overall we did not make any profit ? Investment is not bao jiat one. You only see the highly publicized loss on recent years. You never see the huge profit they made in many other deals.
And transparency u want ? Sorry if they have to disclose every transaction to public, not only we will lose opportunity, we will even be targeted. No, these ppl are accountable to the various boards and management, not the man on the street. I know you dun like it. But this is just the way. A sovereign fund cannot afford to showcase its activities to everyone. And dun forget the grneral public do not have enough knowledge to even judge the deals. For example GIC's Citi deal was such a good deal, it ends up being talked by ppl on the street (u included) as if we lost a huge chunk of money. It's the total opposite. In banking circle we know what deals are good, what are not. Average joe can never judge it.
:cheers4: Fully agree friends
And transparency u want ? Sorry if they have to disclose every transaction to public, not only we will lose opportunity, we will even be targeted. No, these ppl are accountable to the various boards and management, not the man on the street. I know you dun like it. But this is just the way. A sovereign fund cannot afford to showcase its activities to everyone. And dun forget the grneral public do not have enough knowledge to even judge the deals. For example GIC's Citi deal was such a good deal, it ends up being talked by ppl on the street (u included) as if we lost a huge chunk of money. It's the total opposite. In banking circle we know what deals are good, what are not. Average joe can never judge it.
hi i am curious, can u explain what is good about the Citi deal, perhaps with a timeline of events?
dun say it is a good deal or avg folks cannot judge it, bcos that would be seen as avoidance or giving excuse.
Regulators
23-09-12, 23:28
you never heard of CPf nomination meh, if stupid ah peh choose to nominate chio bu or lao kuay bu or whatever bu, CPF and gahmen also LL...coz at the end of the day cpf still our money
@regulators ... u really dun know ah? This is to prevent lonely old Singaporeans money from being swallowed by chiobo overseas after being sweet-talked into selling his roof ... at least lots of money must go back to CPF for his retirement
No, not positive if they can only afford a 3rm HDB but yet bought a 5rm HDB. :p
CPF min sum is for what? Many people say "coffin money", to ensure that the state don't have to pay for any Singaporean's coffin. :ashamed1:
Obviously, CPF min sum is also for any Singaporean's basic retirement money, not enough to fill stomach with good food but won't die due to hunger as well. :beats-me-man:
majority of people are buying hdb flats not with the prior intention to invest, the first thing on their minds is to home their family. Lky has also stressed for ordinary hdb folks not to sell their flats as it is a retirement asset, are you then saying that these folks using cpf money to pay for hdb is not doing something positive towards their retirement? I think your logic is off the tangent.
phantom_opera
24-09-12, 08:44
you never heard of CPf nomination meh, if stupid ah peh choose to nominate chio bu or lao kuay bu or whatever bu, CPF and gahmen also LL...coz at the end of the day cpf still our money
U can nominate but lao kuay bu can't take out till death of her sweet heart
U can nominate but lao kuay bu can't take out till death of her sweet heart
then lao kuay bu will do a sharon-stone-esque ice pick move on you :scared-5:
phantom_opera
24-09-12, 09:20
then lao kuay bu will do a sharon-stone-esque ice pick move on you :scared-5:
Singapore own version of Basic instinct lol
http://www.tremeritus.com/2012/09/23/private-equity-firm-invested-by-gic-faces-potential-loss-of-us1-8b/
"The Australian head of CVC Capital Partners, Adrian MacKenzie, has resigned, as the private equity firm faces losses of up to US$1.8 billion from its debt-funded acquisition of television network Nine Entertainment Co Pty Ltd.
The acquisition of Nine Entertainment was valued at A$5.3 billion.
Sources have identified Singapore sovereign wealth fund GIC and Kuwait Investment Authority (KIA) as being among investors that have taken a combined 10% stake in CVC."
assuming it's equal stake between GIC and KIA, GIC stands to lose $90million!!
poof goes our cpf monies!!
@regulators: define for me a model where the society can function without collective contributions, and we see if it is indeed better. The ppl creating this model were no less smarter than you alright ? For me personally I dun know what is the best solution. It is certainly much better than the western one. This is already very good.
Those using CPF for housing are denying themselves the 2.5% yield ? Yes. Penalizing is not the word. Ensuring u dun recklessly lose it is. The idea is, this money must remain for your retirement. If you think you are smarter and take it out for your own investment, then better be sure you can deliver at least the same return as of you leave it with CPF. That is why you must return with 2.5%. If you cannot even deliver that, then better dun do it at all.
I sense both you and eng just simply cannot accept that this CPF money is not your money. Almost every argument is from the angle that this is your money. Let me rephrase it. CPF money is your money ONLY when it is used for your retirement at old age. For ALL other applications like investments, you are taking out a loan from it.
speaking about investment using CPF, i lost quite a bit in unit trust:mad: (we don't know how to invest mah), but I made a lot (in terms of returns) from properties.
so for people like me and some of the common folks, I think we are better off leaving the money in CPF.
for my last 2 landed property purchases, I used cash and bank loans since the interest rate is much lower than CPF.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.