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Thread: The Sail @ Marina Bay (D1, 99 years, City Developments Limited)

  1. #361
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    also, throughout singapore's history, new and immature estates are always priced lower at inception - look at clementi, even tg rhu and sengkang. the bay area now is still an immature, construction site laden estate. imagine the area 5-10 years down - when everything is built up. could it supplant orchard as the new favored district? maybe.

    even today, some units can be bought at $2000psf - that's still 30% off highs for no view units

  2. #362
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    Just hold the property until it hits 2600psf. Don't sell at a loss. Even you buy at 2131psf, hold the property. My understanding is that it will beat stocks anytime. Somemore, your loan is declining with a tenant servicing your loan. The most, top up a bit with your cash if rental < installment. You are paying for your house anyway. Much better than paying for your car.



    Quote Originally Posted by andy
    Let me also do the reverse for the hypothetical person who bought high during the peak of 2007 and sold low in March 09

    Initial Cash outlay $400K for 80% bank loan
    Bought 980sqft @ $2131psf for 2,088,380
    Sold 980sqft @ $1326psf for $1,299,480
    Gross Loss $788,900
    Stamp duty ~3% $62,651
    Agent fee ~2% $25,990
    Bank Penalty @ 1.5% of 1.6m loan $24,000

    Total Net Loss $901,541

    Initial cash outlay for STI-link equities of $400K
    Net Loss for when STI drops from 2835 to 1457

    Net Loss $194,427

  3. #363
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    Well, I was answering to Andy's question if you read the threads carefully.

    Anyway, it is up to one's preference. For me, I like property. For some, they might prefer stocks or even minibonds. There is really no good comparison because as what you mentioned, apples with oranges. I prefer property than anything else because I like to see and feel what I buy. The sail is there, always there. I don't trust companies. My thinking is even if rental drop to $10 per month, I can still stay myself. But if stock drop to $0.01 like Lehman, how? Anyway, this is again my individual preference. I don't think there is something called the best investment. It is really up to individuals I guess. My friend till date, still buy minibonds and series notes. I have no idea why too.



    Quote Originally Posted by lancelot
    You are comparing apples with oranges. Your example is based on the leveraged returns of one asset (specific risk) against the unleveraged returns of a basket of stocks (systematic risk). Why not say buy SC Global shares at 30 cents in March and sell them today at $1.72? Who has better returns, the Sail or SC Global?

    Buy 1 million SC Global shares at 30 cents - $300,000
    Sell 1 million SC Global shares at $1.72 - $1,720,000
    Profit - $1,420,000.
    Best of all, it is achieved without any leverage.

  4. #364
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    I have to agree on this. Lincoln suites selling studio 2.2 to 2.3k psf. Because it is more developed and claimed to be near (not near IMO) Orchard. Most studios in district 9 and 10 are more than 2k psf. Of course, OR and Scott square are unbeatable. > 4k psf. So anyone can easily tell the sail is underpriced.



    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    also, throughout singapore's history, new and immature estates are always priced lower at inception - look at clementi, even tg rhu and sengkang. the bay area now is still an immature, construction site laden estate. imagine the area 5-10 years down - when everything is built up. could it supplant orchard as the new favored district? maybe.

    even today, some units can be bought at $2000psf - that's still 30% off highs for no view units

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by lancelot
    You are comparing apples with oranges. Your example is based on the leveraged returns of one asset (specific risk) against the unleveraged returns of a basket of stocks (systematic risk). Why not say buy SC Global shares at 30 cents in March and sell them today at $1.72? Who has better returns, the Sail or SC Global?


    Buy 1 million SC Global shares at 30 cents - $300,000
    Sell 1 million SC Global shares at $1.72 - $1,720,000
    Profit - $1,420,000.
    Best of all, it is achieved without any leverage.
    Thanks for all the comments.
    The reason why I picked Sail@Marina to compare to a basket of STI stocks is because Sail represents the closest investment to STI in the short term. In fact the ASP of Sail tracks the STI rather closely on percentage terms of increase and decrease and ease of liquidity. It sells easily commanding 200 transactions per annum.
    Compare with Ardmore Park of 24 transactions per year and Reflections @ Keppel at 35 transactions

    These are my observations if the investor is a near-term investor over a 1 year horizon.

    In a property market coming out of a trough, nothing beats property investment when leverage is used. Picking specific stock gives higher returns but is much more difficult than picking properties.

    When the property market is warm or hot, the risk of leverage is high. E.g., 07-01 of Solataire was bought a $2211psf during the 2007 peak and sold at $1750psf Nov 09. Hence the risk is high if cannot hold

    However I am very curious if the 200 owners of Sail subscribes to propertism that is Buy and Forget or Buy and hold for 10 years. Or are these 200 owners behaving more like stock investors?

  6. #366
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    I can't say for now. Previously, people did buy and sell fast. Especially rental is around 2.6k when it TOP. Those who subsale at 2500psf, 2.6k can only pay half the installment. This is explained by the huge drop in prices suddenly. From 3.8k psf to 1.9k psf for bay view. Carpark, lowest is 1.1k psf.

    Just a guess about the situation now:-

    1) Investors have seen how Sail spiral up so they will be less likely to sell. The first time when property drop like shit, no one knows what the future holds for MB. But now, those who sell at 11xx psf, must be kicking themselves.

    2) Rental has improved quite drastically. From a low of 2.5 to 2.6k in early this year, asking rental are in the range of 3.6 to 4k+. That is almost 50-60% improvement. Ask yourself, did prices go up 50-60%? Not now but maybe soon. The rental rate is increasing about $100 per month. If MBFC is up, economy recovers, 4k+ will be normal for studio.

    3) Those who cannot hold have already exit the market (see my initial sentence of 2500psf). Now, owners are less likely to exit because they don't want to be investors in point 1 and point 2 is supporting the prices now.

    4) The phrase of IR opening capital appreciation is not here yet. Based on other countries experience, another 30 to 50% gain is easily achievable.

    5) MBS effect. Who knows what price are they going to sell at? We are talking about a site smaller than Sail and limited bay view - even at its best stack. Bay view will hold a premiem, always. Limited supply.

    6) Lastly, are there more owners now or more tenants? If more owners, the price is more stable. Have to ask those who stay at TS.


    The above is just my analysis. I can be wrong. IMO, MBR is still the best.




    Quote Originally Posted by andy
    Thanks for all the comments.
    The reason why I picked Sail@Marina to compare to a basket of STI stocks is because Sail represents the closest investment to STI in the short term. In fact the ASP of Sail tracks the STI rather closely on percentage terms of increase and decrease and ease of liquidity. It sells easily commanding 200 transactions per annum.
    Compare with Ardmore Park of 24 transactions per year and Reflections @ Keppel at 35 transactions

    These are my observations if the investor is a near-term investor over a 1 year horizon.

    In a property market coming out of a trough, nothing beats property investment when leverage is used. Picking specific stock gives higher returns but is much more difficult than picking properties.

    When the property market is warm or hot, the risk of leverage is high. E.g., 07-01 of Solataire was bought a $2211psf during the 2007 peak and sold at $1750psf Nov 09. Hence the risk is high if cannot hold

    However I am very curious if the 200 owners of Sail subscribes to propertism that is Buy and Forget or Buy and hold for 10 years. Or are these 200 owners behaving more like stock investors?

  7. #367
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    personally i think the proportion of owner occupiers are increasing - more and more families moving in, more acs and scgs kids in e readng rooms crammin

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    Default The Sail @ Marina Bay studio units for rent!

    The Sail @ Marina Bay

    Studio/High Floor/Nice Sea/IR view/Best Stack/678sqft/Partial furnished/$4k.
    There are other studio units available too, available in end Dec and End Jan!
    Contact 97288886 (Binny) to arrange for viewing.

  9. #369
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    Do you know the sail layout?

    678 sq ft got IR view? Which stack are you talking about? Stack 17? Or you mean go up 44th floor also consider IR view?




    Quote Originally Posted by natsu
    The Sail @ Marina Bay

    Studio/High Floor/Nice Sea/IR view/Best Stack/678sqft/Partial furnished/$4k.
    There are other studio units available too, available in end Dec and End Jan!
    Contact 97288886 (Binny) to arrange for viewing.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomastansb
    Do you know the sail layout?

    678 sq ft got IR view? Which stack are you talking about? Stack 17? Or you mean go up 44th floor also consider IR view?
    i think he means to say Resorts World view.

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    The sail got resorts world view? Something new for me.



    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    i think he means to say Resorts World view.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squall8888
    The sail got resorts world view? Something new for me.
    i also have never seen it - prob agent talking kok as usual

  13. #373
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    Default The Sail @ Marina Bay for Sale/Rental.

    High Flr/3+1/Seaview/1313sqft/Partial Furnished.

    Rental asking: $7.5k (neg)
    Sale: 2200psf $289 (neg)
    Studio available too. 678sqft/partial furnised/immediate/asking $4K
    The Sail offers panoramic city view of Marina Bay and the sea. It is also close to Suntec City, proposed IR and The Esplanade.

    Interested, please contact Binny at 97288886.

  14. #374
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    A stack 5 high floor #5x been sold 305xpsf. flipping for 100k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    A stack 5 high floor #5x been sold 305xpsf. flipping for 100k
    lol, waste time. after costs can barely buy a decent watch

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    A stack 5 high floor #5x been sold 305xpsf. flipping for 100k
    $3,05x psf?
    Wow!
    Higher than 30-November $3,000 psf by $5x psf?



    The Sail At Marina Bay
    Address ............................ psf ................ Area ........... Price .............. Contract Date
    2 Marina Boulevard #25-03 .... $2,999 psf ..... 1,033 sqft .... $3,099,000 ...... 30 Nov 09

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    lol, waste time. after costs can barely buy a decent watch
    Geez... you really have expensive taste
    Everytime i stand outside at Sincere or Hourglass, i see the price tag of the watches.. i dare not go in already...

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    Quote Originally Posted by focus
    Geez... you really have expensive taste
    Everytime i stand outside at Sincere or Hourglass, i see the price tag of the watches.. i dare not go in already...
    '

    prices all talk cock one, can buy far far less depending on brand. i urge you to go in, try out the watches, talk cock sing song with the SEs, get their free kopi

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    '

    prices all talk cock one, can buy far far less depending on brand. i urge you to go in, try out the watches, talk cock sing song with the SEs, get their free kopi
    Is it? .. So if it's price-tagged at $20-30k, can bargain down by how many % usually?
    But you are talking about $100k watch.. gosh.. It's too expensive an accessory for me..

    But ya.. probably will go down one of these days if i ever feel rich..

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby, SkyscraperCity, 19 January 2010 2.37 pm
    Agents said a troop of China investors want to buy Sail ..... jia lat, RMB flooding Marina Bay liao.... PM Wen squeeze them, so they're coming to Singapore
    Quote Originally Posted by schtaw, SkyscaperCity, 19 January 2010, 2.39 pm
    I also got 2 sms from agents today....

    Sunday morning turn down a offer $1950.... I quote them $2100 and they say they will try..

    I also blur....
    Quote Originally Posted by LittlePig, SkyscraperCity, 19 January 2010 3.05 pm
    Yes, a group of Chinese (lead by a Chinese lady agent) is here buying the Sail now... problem is no one is selling at today's prices... it will not take long before the whole horde of rich Chinese amass at our shores, or rather, at Marina Bay!!!
    So China's PLA (Property Liberation Army) (中国买楼大军) have arrived?

    Quote Originally Posted by 早报星期天

    中国买楼大军快杀到?
    中国人组织购房团到海外买楼顺便观光,已经不是什么新闻,不过,至今却未听闻来到新加坡。与其将项目带到海外促销,或许发展商们这次可以考虑,将买家带到新加坡来?圣淘沙的名胜世界(Resort World Sentosa)开幕在即,相信要吸引一些富豪前来,应该不会找不到一个好借口……
    吳慧敏
    早报星期天
    星期天, 15-11-2009


    远东机构的豪华共管公寓 -- 乌节史格园(Orchard Scotts),有高达25%的外国买家来自中国

    最近,发展商又开始将手头上一些共管公寓项目,特别是属于中高档次的项目悄悄地带到海外促销。不同的是,除了印尼、香港、马来西亚这几个常拜的“码头”,听说一些人现在也开始往上海

    虽然不少本地人的想法还停留在“中国人只会在新加坡购买低价房子”的框框,不过一些发展商已经意识到,风势正在改变。

    中国人百万千万豪宅

    过去三年来,中国人在外国买家的排名节节上升,由2007年的第五名,攀升至2008年的第四名。根据今年首9个月的成交量,中国人已经超过英国人和印度人,成为新加坡私宅的第三大外国买家。

    两个月前,本报也曾经报道,本地每卖出100间私人房子,约22间由外国人或永久居民买下,其中六间的买家是马来西亚人、五间是印尼人、三间是中国人,购买力不容忽视。

    目前,中国人购买的房子虽然大多(25%)属于售价50万元至100万元的大众化档次,不过,买得起500万元以(more than $5 million)上豪宅的中国人,也大有人在

    例如远东机构的乌节史格园(Orchard Scotts),就有高达25%外国买家来自中国。这个靠近纽顿地铁站的豪华共管公寓,单位价格动辄四五百万元($4-5 million)。

    一家房地产代理公司的研究部主管也透露,最近几个星期,升涛湾(Sentosa Cove)的千万元豪宅区也出现了不少中国的超级大富豪前来看楼。

    中国的崛起让富豪的人数暴增,根据最近发表的胡润百富榜,今年中国的百亿人民币富豪人数,已由去年的50名上升至65名;至于财富在10亿人民币以上的富豪则有1000名之多。香港只有22名,但上海有90名、北京有87名、深圳65名、杭州60名、广州38名、温州25名、成都23名。

    从这些数据看,已经到新加坡买楼的中国人,至今应该只是占了中国富豪人数中的九牛一毛。中国炒房团虽然已经在中国多个城市,包括香港兴起滔天巨浪,但是至今仍没有太强的证据显示,他们已经大举进军新加坡。

    一名发展商曾经预测,中国人迟早会超越马来西亚人和印尼人,成为新加坡最大的外国买楼族群。姑且不论这个预言会否成真,但是这股购买势力已是不容忽视。

    为中国买家全方位服务

    不过,到目前为止,新加坡发展商在争取中国买家方面所取得的成绩,似乎参差不齐。

    不少人仍质疑这股买楼势力;有些虽然已经意识到这股新势力,却不知道如何下手;不过也有些在耕耘几年后,开始看到了一些成绩。

    以远东机构来说,它在6年前于上海设立办事处,现在,中国新移民和其他海外买家已在两年前超越印尼人,成为远东机构公寓项目的最大外籍买家。

    值得参考的是,这个办事处并不只是在中国摆摆模型、发发宣传册子而已,而是主动安排一些中国商人到新加坡来实地考察”。

    远东机构不但安排专车从机场接送这些“贵客”到该机构的酒店住宿,以及到机构属下的餐厅用,贵客在参观房子后,如果有兴趣的话,甚至会安排他们与本地银行学校和政府机构代表会面,协助他们了解在新加坡定居、经商及孩子教育的问题

    一名房屋经纪也告诉记者,他因为提供许多附加服务,而成功争取到了一些中国大客户当中好几个授权他500万元至1000万元不等($5-10 million)的预算,代他们在新加坡买房子

    这些中国客户通常是客户的亲戚、商业伙伴,有的打算在新加坡做生意,有的则因为孩子在新加坡念书,所以想在新加坡投资房地产。因此,除了带他们看房子外,他还帮他们的孩子介绍监护人、律师、银行家。每次中国客户来新,他还代为在六星级酒店订房、租车,甚至带他们到名牌店购物、去东海岸吃辣椒螃蟹等等。

    名胜世界明年开幕
    或能吸引富豪来买房

    中国人组织购房团到海外买楼顺便观光,已经不是什么新闻,不过,至今却未听闻来到新加坡。与其将项目带到海外促销,或许发展商们这次可以考虑将买家带到新加坡?

    圣淘沙的名胜世界(Resort World Sentosa)开幕在即,相信要吸引一些富豪前来,应该不会找不到一个好借口……

  21. #381
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    Hey Guys. Is there a fire sales @ The Sail? I saw in today's paper a #4x-02 selling 2400psf. True? Anyone called?

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    Just got this from my agent, is it a good buy?

    Best Buy -- Sail # 2x-15 861sqft
    Tenanted till Oct 2010 at $4700

    Asking only $1880psf Nett ....

    Already have units transacted $1950psf up ( caveat not lodge yet)
    Reasonable asking price NOW

    Hurry... call for more info before it gone !!!

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    Default The port to go

    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    Hey Guys. Is there a fire sales @ The Sail? I saw in today's paper a #4x-02 selling 2400psf. True? Anyone called?
    The Port will be changed to Residence area in 17(?) years. Supplier will dramatically increase.

    Anyone has more details?


    Thanks,
    Richard

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    Anything below 1950 psf for 2 bedrooms is good buy. Anything below 2000 psf for studio is very very good buy. All except carpark facing which is 200psf lower.






    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Just got this from my agent, is it a good buy?

    Best Buy -- Sail # 2x-15 861sqft
    Tenanted till Oct 2010 at $4700

    Asking only $1880psf Nett ....

    Already have units transacted $1950psf up ( caveat not lodge yet)
    Reasonable asking price NOW

    Hurry... call for more info before it gone !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Just got this from my agent, is it a good buy?

    Best Buy -- Sail # 2x-15 861sqft
    Tenanted till Oct 2010 at $4700

    Asking only $1880psf Nett ....

    Already have units transacted $1950psf up ( caveat not lodge yet)
    Reasonable asking price NOW

    Hurry... call for more info before it gone !!!
    You buying?

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    Unfortunately, I am only interested in 999yr and FH

    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    You buying?

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    Default Velly good

    THE SAIL @ MARINA BAY MARINA BOULEVARD Apartment 1 1,170,000 678 Strata 1,725 Jan-10

    Anything below 1950 psf for 2 bedrooms is good buy. Anything below 2000 psf for studio is very very good buy. All except carpark facing which is 200psf lower.

    = very very very god?

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    stack 15 very good meh? no leh... to buy sail, u gotta be familiar with the stacks facings

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    It's a carpark view unit. 02-17 if I am not wrong. 1725 psf. A new high if we exclude the 2007 days.




    Quote Originally Posted by orange
    stack 15 very good meh? no leh... to buy sail, u gotta be familiar with the stacks facings

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    worthwhile to buy a stack 16 pool view mid floor at 2.1k psf?

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