The Sail @ Marina Bay (D1, 99 years, City Developments Limited)

[Regulators]

the guy who paid 3kpsf has too much money to throw and obviously not affected by market movement

Marina Boulevard
#58-03
$1900psf
22 Nov 08

Marina Boulevard
#25-03
$3000psf
30 Nov 09

[thomastansb]

Not really. That was the lowest priced bay view available for that stack. Look at the prices now. Anyway, another 3k psf transacted on sat. 2 bedders bay.

the guy who paid 3kpsf has too much money to throw and obviously not affected by market movement

[Property_Owner]

Not really. That was the lowest priced bay view available for that stack. Look at the prices now. Anyway, another 3k psf transacted on sat. 2 bedders bay.

Any idea what stack? Dun tell me it's low floor again

[Squall8888]

If low floor again, then I think we have reached 2007 heights now.

Any idea what stack? Dun tell me it's low floor again

[Property_Owner]

If low floor again, then I think we have reached 2007 heights now.

If we see #1x-0x sold @3000psf, we will bypass 2007 peak and create a new price tag for marina bay

[andy]

Shit shit shit... it's coming ??!

I dunno about luxury..

But i can also feel the tremors in non-prime Landed... seems like the prices are edging upwards slowly..

I think this property boom is only for very selective projects based on speculative demand.

Beyond these segments, resale of non-landed residential projects of over 3 years old are virtually non-existent. This spike is very different from 1996 and 2007.

[Reporter]

I think this property boom is only for very selective projects based on speculative demand.

Beyond these segments, resale of non-landed residential projects of over 3 years old are virtually non-existent. This spike is very different from 1996 and 2007.

Err ... I ain't sure ...

Anyway, I think we should give CSR more credit for hitting $1,271 psf than TS@MB for hitting $3,000 psf.
Anyone agree?

Done Deals
City Square Residences resale prices above $1,000 psf
The Edge
Monday, 14 December 2009



Since June this year, transaction prices of apartments at the 910-unit City Square Residences in the secondary market have increasingly crossed $1,000 psf, hitting a high of $1,271 psf in August, when a 570 sqft studio apartment on the 26th floor of one of the two 30-storey towers was sold for $725,000. Since October, however, more units have been changing hands in the resale market at prices above the $1,000 to $1,100 psf range.

..........
..........

[gfoo]

Err ... I ain't sure ...

Anyway, I think we should give CSR more credit for hitting $1,271 psf than TS@MB for hitting $3,000 psf.
Anyone agree?

holy crap, and it was averaging just $600psf prev. people really like indian culture & food eh?

[Regulators]

3k and 1.2k is 1.8k psf difference when they are effectively just a few minutes apart. CSR is freehold and TS is 99year. Paying 3k or more psf just to get bay view is IMO, overpriced. Of course someone will rebut me with how much the govt is spending to spruce the area up and compare with HK prices or talk about market forces deciding the prices blar blar blar, but do sit down for a moment to think, is it rational for propety prices to triple or quadruple in value just because the property is facing some casino or IR? Rich people who buy properties are often irrational and they do not care as much about market movements as much as an average joe. I believe that even if Modi lost half of the property value in TS, he will be able to recoup that in 1 month from his investments and business.

Err ... I ain't sure ...

Anyway, I think we should give CSR more credit for hitting $1,271 psf than TS@MB for hitting $3,000 psf.
Anyone agree?

[gfoo]

few mins apart? you drive ferrari ah?

if go by your logic then investors all over the world have been irrational for eons. Hudson-facing vs no facing one block away in Manhattan, Lake washington facing vs 'mins away' in Seattle, etc etc. then since alexandra is minutes apart, then orchard should also be $1000psf.

there is a reason why the govt spent $30b and committed another $30b to build up this area - this area is Singapore's new skyline and will define the future of Singapore - a completely new district but catered wholly to the well heeled and tier 1 businesses: wide central parks, completely connected by MRT beneath, millions of sqft of shopping, entertainment and dining, fountain lined walkways etc.

$3k now and it's a construction site. See what happens in 6 months lah

[jlrx]

few mins apart? you drive ferrari ah?

if go by your logic then investors all over the world have been irrational for eons. Hudson-facing vs no facing one block away in Manhattan, Lake washington facing vs 'mins away' in Seattle, etc etc. then since alexandra is minutes apart, then orchard should also be $1000psf.

It's the same reason why this car costs $1.4 million.

0 to 100 kmh: 3.4 seconds

whereas this one costs only $500,000.

0 to 100 kmh: 4.6 seconds

1.2 seconds; Price difference $900,000.

That's $750,000 per second of acceleration!

Definitely irrational !!!

[Squall8888]

It is not comparable this way.

Twin regency selling around 1300 psf now. My 980 sq ft (around the size of 4 bedrooms HDB) is valued around 1.2 to 1.3 million. 30 seconds away (1 minute if you crawl), HDB is selling at 0.5 million or below. Rational? Overpriced? Or just plain stupid for people to pay 1.2 million for a 4 bedroom size in twin regency? And I don't believe freehold or 99 years. When I bought my central green (just beside TR), it was really dirt cheap. Now, it is close to 1k psf (3x of what I paid for 13 years back). It is a 99 years condo. Left 80+ years only. On the other hand, TR only command 1.3k psf. Not because it is freehold. Because it is newer.

Not convinced, just see mirage towers. Freehold but the price is 50% discount compared to those 99 years LH around it.

Pricing is due to a lot of factors. Age, rental, location, future development etc... Most importantly, supply and demand. It is not so much about FH or LH.

Lastly, it only takes 69 or 70 people around the world to like a particular bay view stack (sail 70 floors right?) to drive the prices crazy. Limited supply (vs huge demand). But for a very commonly available CSR in a not very ideal location, I seriously thought citylights or southbank is so much better.

3k and 1.2k is 1.8k psf difference when they are effectively just a few minutes apart. CSR is freehold and TS is 99year. Paying 3k or more psf just to get bay view is IMO, overpriced. Of course someone will rebut me with how much the govt is spending to spruce the area up and compare with HK prices or talk about market forces deciding the prices blar blar blar, but do sit down for a moment to think, is it rational for propety prices to triple or quadruple in value just because the property is facing some casino or IR? Rich people who buy properties are often irrational and they do not care as much about market movements as much as an average joe. I believe that even if Modi lost half of the property value in TS, he will be able to recoup that in 1 month from his investments and business.

[Squall8888]

Double post.

[andy]

Which is better and why?

Buy a few assorted units @ the sail or invest the same amount in blue chips companies of the STI

March 9th 2009 STI = 1457
Average Selling Price of Sail in March 2009 $1324psf

Dec 23th 2009 STI = 2835
Average Selling Price of Sail in December 2009 = $2131psf

[Squall8888]

Let's say you buy STI linked stocks - $300,000 @ 1457 points. You sell at 2835 = $583,733

You bought The Sail 980sq ft @ 1.3 million = 1326psf. 23% downpayment = 300k. Loan is 1.04 million based on 80% leverage. You sell for 2131psf which gave you 2.09 million. 2.09 million - 1.04 million loan = 1.05 million.

So you get back 1.05 million dollars. Of course, you minus off stamp duty, agent fee, misc fees and that gave you 1 million.

1 million vs 0.58 million. I think there is only a clear cut winner here.

You decide. STI better or property better. Got pros and cons. Sail, you get rental to cover, you buy stocks, your dividend is not even enough to cover your internet charges. Over the years, the property will be yours. Even 6 months later, your loan also decreased by 6 months. The cons is you need to have the ability to borrow and your credit check is worse now. But with a million dollars profit if one buy in March and sell it now, who cares about credit checks right?

6 months later, maybe average is 2500 psf? No one knows. Only you have balls big enough, then you will earn. You can whine, you can cry and you can kpkb property prices too high but only those who buy will smile. I am sure a lot of people out there, kpkb HDB prices high, COV high since 2006. Till now, some of them still haven't got a place yet. This is despite the fact that COV drop to negative early this year !! And they continue to kpkb. They failed to understand, property prices moves with inflation. 30 years ago, HDB cost a few thousands only and chicken rice costs $0.30. Now, chicken rice easily $5. So if property stay the same, won't it be dumb? It is impossible. When chicken rice reaches $10, people will still continue to kpkb but don't want to buy. To me, they are stupid fools. You miss the chance in 2007, you have it in 2009. Now you miss again, who knows when it will come back. Then again, those fools will miss again and kpkb the Government. Anyway, HDB is already one of the assets targeted by the Government as retirement fundings (apart from your CPF). You think the Government will let the prices depreciates? I don't think so. The Government will rather let a few stupid fools have no house than to have tons of old people taking money from them.

Which is better and why?

Buy a few assorted units @ the sail or invest the same amount in blue chips companies of the STI

March 9th 2009 STI = 1457
Average Selling Price of Sail in March 2009 $1324psf

Dec 23th 2009 STI = 2835
Average Selling Price of Sail in December 2009 = $2131psf

[dtrax]

haha well said...

Let's say you buy STI linked stocks - $300,000 @ 1457 points. You sell at 2835 = $583,733

You bought The Sail 980sq ft @ 1.3 million = 1326psf. 23% downpayment = 300k. Loan is 1.04 million based on 80% leverage. You sell for 2131psf which gave you 2.09 million. 2.09 million - 1.04 million loan = 1.05 million.

So you get back 1.05 million dollars. Of course, you minus off stamp duty, agent fee, misc fees and that gave you 1 million.

1 million vs 0.58 million. I think there is only a clear cut winner here.

You decide. STI better or property better. Got pros and cons. Sail, you get rental to cover, you buy stocks, your dividend is not even enough to cover your internet charges. Over the years, the property will be yours. Even 6 months later, your loan also decreased by 6 months. The cons is you need to have the ability to borrow and your credit check is worse now. But with a million dollars profit if one buy in March and sell it now, who cares about credit checks right?

6 months later, maybe average is 2500 psf? No one knows. Only you have balls big enough, then you will earn. You can whine, you can cry and you can kpkb property prices too high but only those who buy will smile. I am sure a lot of people out there, kpkb HDB prices high, COV high since 2006. Till now, some of them still haven't got a place yet. This is despite the fact that COV drop to negative early this year !! And they continue to kpkb. They failed to understand, property prices moves with inflation. 30 years ago, HDB cost a few thousands only and chicken rice costs $0.30. Now, chicken rice easily $5. So if property stay the same, won't it be dumb? It is impossible. When chicken rice reaches $10, people will still continue to kpkb but don't want to buy. To me, they are stupid fools. You miss the chance in 2007, you have it in 2009. Now you miss again, who knows when it will come back. Then again, those fools will miss again and kpkb the Government. Anyway, HDB is already one of the assets targeted by the Government as retirement fundings (apart from your CPF). You think the Government will let the prices depreciates? I don't think so. The Government will rather let a few stupid fools have no house than to have tons of old people taking money from them.

[iamforum]

Haha ppl always mentioned

this project sux that project so high price

Who will want to pay at such a sky rocket price

Like to Kpkb in tis forum

actually this ppl got no money at all

Sour grapes?

[thomastansb]

Actually, squall got his calculations wrong slightly. The initial 300k already includes stamp duty. So the profit is actually much higher than 1 million. You only need 260k as 20% downpayment for a 1.3 million unit. I think I can say the profit is around 1.03 million. Also, you need to factor in the decreasing bank loan which won’t be 1.04 million. It will be lesser. With that, I conclude that you make almost twice the amount if you did not invest in STI linked. Wow. And squall is right about buying. If you don’t buy, you can just watch the boat SAIL away. Now still have some 1950psf units (not facing carpark of course) available. Take it before all asking 2k psf.

Do I sound too optimistic?

Haha ppl always mentioned

this project sux that project so high price

Who will want to pay at such a sky rocket price

Like to Kpkb in tis forum

actually this ppl got no money at all

Sour grapes?

[mcmlxxvi]

People who busy making money buying or flipping properties have little time to kpkb here in this forum... unless you are already vested in profit generating property/properties which can sustain your lifestyle - then this is pretty much a hands-off investment game and you have all the free time in the world to kpkb here...

[Squall8888]

You take very long to flip properties meh? How many can you buy at one go?

People who busy making money buying or flipping properties have little time to kpkb here in this forum... unless you are already vested in profit generating property/properties which can sustain your lifestyle - then this is pretty much a hands-off investment game and you have all the free time in the world to kpkb here...

[Property_Owner]

I should had gotten another 5 units of Sail beginning this year. If every unit gain a million that will be 5million. Time for more IRAS coffee.

[moneyspinner]

Which is better and why?

Buy a few assorted units @ the sail or invest the same amount in blue chips companies of the STI

March 9th 2009 STI = 1457
Average Selling Price of Sail in March 2009 $1324psf

Dec 23th 2009 STI = 2835
Average Selling Price of Sail in December 2009 = $2131psf

Gain on the STI - 2835/1457 = +94.6 pct

Gain on The Sail - 2131/1324 = +61 pct

So, equities is the winner!

[andy]

Let's say you buy STI linked stocks - $300,000 @ 1457 points. You sell at 2835 = $583,733

You bought The Sail 980sq ft @ 1.3 million = 1326psf. 23% downpayment = 300k. Loan is 1.04 million based on 80% leverage. You sell for 2131psf which gave you 2.09 million. 2.09 million - 1.04 million loan = 1.05 million.

So you get back 1.05 million dollars. Of course, you minus off stamp duty, agent fee, misc fees and that gave you 1 million.

1 million vs 0.58 million. I think there is only a clear cut winner here.

I've something different. Both cases I still have 300K after the buy/sell transaction plus the net profit.

980sqft
1326psf $1,299,480
2131psf $2,088,380
Gross Profit $788,900
Less Stamp Duty ~3% $38,984
Less Agent fee ~2% $41,768
Less Bank Penalty ~1.5% $15,000

Net Gain $693,148


STI 1457
$300,000
STI 2835

Net Gain $283,734

[andy]

Let me also do the reverse for the hypothetical person who bought high during the peak of 2007 and sold low in March 09

Initial Cash outlay $400K for 80% bank loan
Bought 980sqft @ $2131psf for 2,088,380
Sold 980sqft @ $1326psf for $1,299,480
Gross Loss $788,900
Stamp duty ~3% $62,651
Agent fee ~2% $25,990
Bank Penalty @ 1.5% of 1.6m loan $24,000

Total Net Loss $901,541

Initial cash outlay for STI-link equities of $400K
Net Loss for when STI drops from 2835 to 1457

Net Loss $194,427

[lancelot]

Let's say you buy STI linked stocks - $300,000 @ 1457 points. You sell at 2835 = $583,733

You bought The Sail 980sq ft @ 1.3 million = 1326psf. 23% downpayment = 300k. Loan is 1.04 million based on 80% leverage. You sell for 2131psf which gave you 2.09 million. 2.09 million - 1.04 million loan = 1.05 million.

So you get back 1.05 million dollars. Of course, you minus off stamp duty, agent fee, misc fees and that gave you 1 million.

1 million vs 0.58 million. I think there is only a clear cut winner here.

You decide. STI better or property better. Got pros and cons. Sail, you get rental to cover, you buy stocks, your dividend is not even enough to cover your internet charges. Over the years, the property will be yours. Even 6 months later, your loan also decreased by 6 months. The cons is you need to have the ability to borrow and your credit check is worse now. But with a million dollars profit if one buy in March and sell it now, who cares about credit checks right?

6 months later, maybe average is 2500 psf? No one knows. Only you have balls big enough, then you will earn. You can whine, you can cry and you can kpkb property prices too high but only those who buy will smile. I am sure a lot of people out there, kpkb HDB prices high, COV high since 2006. Till now, some of them still haven't got a place yet. This is despite the fact that COV drop to negative early this year !! And they continue to kpkb. They failed to understand, property prices moves with inflation. 30 years ago, HDB cost a few thousands only and chicken rice costs $0.30. Now, chicken rice easily $5. So if property stay the same, won't it be dumb? It is impossible. When chicken rice reaches $10, people will still continue to kpkb but don't want to buy. To me, they are stupid fools. You miss the chance in 2007, you have it in 2009. Now you miss again, who knows when it will come back. Then again, those fools will miss again and kpkb the Government. Anyway, HDB is already one of the assets targeted by the Government as retirement fundings (apart from your CPF). You think the Government will let the prices depreciates? I don't think so. The Government will rather let a few stupid fools have no house than to have tons of old people taking money from them.

You are comparing apples with oranges. Your example is based on the leveraged returns of one asset (specific risk) against the unleveraged returns of a basket of stocks (systematic risk). Why not say buy SC Global shares at 30 cents in March and sell them today at $1.72? Who has better returns, the Sail or SC Global?

Buy 1 million SC Global shares at 30 cents - $300,000
Sell 1 million SC Global shares at $1.72 - $1,720,000
Profit - $1,420,000.
Best of all, it is achieved without any leverage.

[thomastansb]

You forget got 80% leverage. x5 returns.

Gain on the STI - 2835/1457 = +94.6 pct

Gain on The Sail - 2131/1324 = +61 pct

So, equities is the winner!

[thomastansb]

High risk, high returns I supposed. The winner is the one who buy Like gfoo etc.. Losers will be people who if here, if there.

Let me also do the reverse for the hypothetical person who bought high during the peak of 2007 and sold low in March 09

Initial Cash outlay $400K for 80% bank loan
Bought 980sqft @ $2131psf for 2,088,380
Sold 980sqft @ $1326psf for $1,299,480
Gross Loss $788,900
Stamp duty ~3% $62,651
Agent fee ~2% $25,990
Bank Penalty @ 1.5% of 1.6m loan $24,000

Total Net Loss $901,541

Initial cash outlay for STI-link equities of $400K
Net Loss for when STI drops from 2835 to 1457

Net Loss $194,427

[thomastansb]

squall is just replying to Andy's post. The thing about property is you need balls and money to buy. Enter the market when it is low. Now is low - mid if you ask me. Next year will be mid - high already. Sail is damn underpriced IMO. Some newton studio already 2200psf. Facing nothing or concrete like those carpark view of The Sail. When 2 MRTs are there, garden up, IR up, shopping centre up, MBFC up etc, let's review this post again. I might be wrong but I have been right for the past 10 months.



The question posed by Andy is:-

andy vbmenu_register("postmenu_80963", true);
Junior

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 397



Which is better and why?

Buy a few assorted units @ the sail or invest the same amount in blue chips companies of the STI

March 9th 2009 STI = 1457
Average Selling Price of Sail in March 2009 $1324psf

Dec 23th 2009 STI = 2835
Average Selling Price of Sail in December 2009 = $2131psf

You are comparing apples with oranges. Your example is based on the leveraged returns of one asset (specific risk) against the unleveraged returns of a basket of stocks (systematic risk). Why not say buy SC Global shares at 30 cents in March and sell them today at $1.72? Who has better returns, the Sail or SC Global?

Buy 1 million SC Global shares at 30 cents - $300,000
Sell 1 million SC Global shares at $1.72 - $1,720,000
Profit - $1,420,000.
Best of all, it is achieved without any leverage.

[jlrx]

High risk, high returns I supposed. The winner is the one who buy Like gfoo etc.. Losers will be people who if here, if there.

The biggest winner would be Property_Owner, who bought 5 units of Sail when launched, and now getting greedy wishing he had bought another 5 units early this year.

I should had gotten another 5 units of Sail beginning this year. If every unit gain a million that will be 5million. Time for more IRAS coffee.

Seriously, I don't see the rationale of comparing properties with stocks, which's like comparing jewel with junk, respectively.

Properties, especially freehold, have a tendency to appreciate over the long term, whereas stocks have an expected value of zero in 50 years.

The average life expectancy of a multinational corporation-Fortune 500 or its equivalent-is between 40 and 50 years. This figure is based on most surveys of corporate births and deaths. A full one-third of the companies listed in the 1970 Fortune 500, for instance, had vanished by 1983-acquired, merged, or broken to pieces. Human beings have learned to survive, on aver-age, for 75 years or more, but there are very few companies that are that old and flourishing.

Just read every Sunday Time's "Invest - Me & My Money" column, where they would interview successful people about their personal finances.

See what they say are their "best investments" and "worst investments".

Consistently, the most common set of answers had been "properties" and "stocks", respectively.

[gfoo]

if hg has a 60% off a bg la tradition or pp perpcal, who won't buy? if a bg classique, vc patri doubles in price but a pp cala only increased 30%, would you still wait?

in jan09 when i was looking, tembeling rd was going for $800psf (high of $1300), evelyn was $1000psf (high $1600) and TS $1100 (high $3500). no brainer leh

also consider layouts - i still prefer square, low PES devts like TS for eg my 2+1 is now a 3+loft (for the maid) w/o sacrificing living/dining space. my agent converted a 3+1 into a 5 for rental, and one guys 1 bedder is now a 1+1 (for his kid). this only possible because there are no concrete pillars or PES or structural restrictions in most of the TS units, which in other devts can constitute 20-40% of paid up area (esp novelty grp)