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Thread: Singapore Talking Episode 1: Housing and property: Are we missing the big picture?

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    Default Singapore Talking Episode 1: Housing and property: Are we missing the big picture?

    The topic for the first episode is "Housing and property: Are we missing the big picture?".

    From the discussions and interjections, it's still the same old same old all over again - nothing new.

    Ashraf would do good to invite some of the super old birds of this forum like Reporter and Proud Owner and our venerable jl'Propertism'rx rather than 'yawn' policy makers and 'playing the goody two shoes' property agency owner. Not point inviting the 'commoner' Singaporean also who only knows to ask for hand outs and whine nonstop.

    To answer the question posed by the topic: Is there a big picture? It's just every man for himself. Who gives a s*** for the big picture. Heartening though to see the MP emphasizing 85% of the population are property owners and if prices trend down it would be disastrous (if he speaks for the gahmen stand, it can only mean the prices WILL still go up and up).

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    Agreed!
    BE CENTRED BY ALL AT THE FRINGE OF THE CITY @

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    Yeah wasn't ground-breaking or anything, tho the ads for it seemed to suggest so. One gd point made by Ashraf was how in S'pore, we S'poreans are constantly pushed to do the best in school, work, etc., or for that matter, we have the best airport, the first F1 night race, etc., but when it comes to property-buying, we are asked to "mitigate" our expectations. As in, if you want a hm as you are going to get married but can't afford HDB resale or can't wait 3 years or so for a BTO, then stay with your parents (=lower your expectations) until you can, that kinda thing .... Forget the romance and all...

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    is a tv show??

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    Yes, it is. On Channel 5. First episode was last nite. But nothing out of the ordinary, as said. Just that y'day's topic was on housing ...

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    Should focus on The BIGGER Picture!
    BE CENTRED BY ALL AT THE FRINGE OF THE CITY @

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleek
    Should focus on The BIGGER Picture!
    You're right on! BIGGER picture is overall UPWARDs growth in property and assets prices for 85% Singaporeans (including me). Hahaha.... bull all the way!!!!!!! Can't wait for OCR to hit 1500psf as a de facto....

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    Somehow I don't think this up trend will last forever. Will an asian sub-prime crisis hit us in 2012?

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    Quote Originally Posted by azeoprop
    Somehow I don't think this up trend will last forever. Will an asian sub-prime crisis hit us in 2012?
    Well what goes up must come down and what comes down must go up. That's why property is cyclical. Just time your actions.

    When I said 'up' I'm referring to the general trend over the very long term. Not within any particular cycle. Like general forex trading vs micro-trading.

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    Those we missed the first episode can catch it online here:

    http://entertainment.xin.msn.com/en/...mentid=3997672

    Xinmsn, xin this xin that xin it all *yawnz*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_V
    ..... if you want a hm as you are going to get married but can't afford HDB resale or can't wait 3 years or so for a BTO, then stay with your parents (=lower your expectations) until you can, that kinda thing .... Forget the romance and all...

    Actually I disagree completely....... the whole Financial Crisis was brought about by people living outside their means, and banks prepared to fund it.

    If you can't aford it, don't do it.

    The issue is not about the lower expectation of the newly wed but the very high price of getting onto the first rung of the property ladder. It was the case in Europe the last 10-yrs that newly weds and first time buyers were getting priced out the market and were also forced to rent or live with family.

    It is a fine line between the expectations of people and what the government should do to make realistic expectations/rights, possible.

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    The point is, public housing, as the name implies, ought to be affordable but that’s not the case here re: the resale mkt. For many of the newly married yg couples who need homes urgently and can't live with their parents for whatever reason, prices have risen way too much compared to what they are earning. Made worse by ridiculous COVs.

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    So, it is not government trying to tell people to lower their expectations by choice, but through necessity, caused in most part to policy that has led to prices outstripping the reach of the 1st time buyer.

    I think in the end we are saying similar things.



    What do you think happens when a higher and higher percentage of the population, over time, have a harder and harder task to own a place to live? It's only a matter of time, and the clock is ticking.

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    Singapore citizens can always buy new HDB flats wah, no need to buy resale if too expensive because it benefits them in future as they can sell as resale at high price and upgrade to condos.
    Saying couples need homes urgently and can't live with parents etc is no excuse. Why need homes urgently? Nobody force them to get married and have kid immediately right? Is their own choice right? Many citizens have gone through this before, waiting for their new HDB flats to be ready before moving in and have kids etc. What is the wrong with the new generation? Old generation can do new generation cannot? It is not as though waiting for HDB flat to be ready is something new? (It has been like that for the past 20 years now!).

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_V
    The point is, public housing, as the name implies, ought to be affordable but that’s not the case here re: the resale mkt. For many of the newly married yg couples who need homes urgently and can't live with their parents for whatever reason, prices have risen way too much compared to what they are earning. Made worse by ridiculous COVs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmlxxvi
    Quote Originally Posted by azeoprop
    Somehow I don't think this up trend will last forever. Will an asian sub-prime crisis hit us in 2012?
    Well what goes up must come down and what comes down must go up. That's why property is cyclical. Just time your actions.

    When I said 'up' I'm referring to the general trend over the very long term. Not within any particular cycle. Like general forex trading vs micro-trading.
    mcmlxxvi is absolutely right. In the short term, the property market may bounce up and down, but in the long term, it always goes up.

    That's PROPERTISM Rule No. 1 - Property prices always go up in the long term hence properties should only be bought and not sold.

    The property market simply has no way to go but up because paper currency simply has no way to go but down.

    Wise men in the past had already predicted all these.

    “The modern banking process manufactures currency out of nothing.”.
    - Lord Josiah Stamp, Former Director of the Bank of England (1937)

    “At the end fiat money returns to its inner value—zero.”
    - Voltaire (21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778)

    Those who are not familiar with the concept of PROPERTISM can take this PROPERTISM exam:

    http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...3&postcount=19

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear
    Singapore citizens can always buy new HDB flats wah, no need to buy resale if too expensive because it benefits them in future as they can sell as resale at high price and upgrade to condos.
    Saying couples need homes urgently and can't live with parents etc is no excuse. Why need homes urgently? Nobody force them to get married and have kid immediately right? Is their own choice right? Many citizens have gone through this before, waiting for their new HDB flats to be ready before moving in and have kids etc. What is the wrong with the new generation? Old generation can do new generation cannot? It is not as though waiting for HDB flat to be ready is something new? (It has been like that for the past 20 years now!).
    So in essence they have to lower their expectations. That was what the discussion was about. Period. (BTW, I am not vested, as in I'm not a yg married pax looking for a flat. Just looking at things from their POV, esp those with valid reasons, like a couple of my friends.)

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    Some people say the rich will always be richer and the poor will always be poorer.

    It should be the rich can become richer if they make the money work harder for them, and the poor can become poorer more easily if they don’t work hard or work smart.

    In short, I believe it depends on what a person want to achieve in life. If you keep saying you want to become rich w/o doing anything, it’s as good as day dreaming.

    I still remember a Newspaper report about a young karong guni man who make it big by recycling the old materials. And not to forget those millionaires and billionaires out there who went through hardship (even bankruptcy) in their early life before they become successful. If a person don't work hard and only know how to complain and complain of not being able to afford hdb and government is not helping, he will only get poorer.

    For lonely old folks who has no one to depend on, “Yes” they are helpless unless the society and government can lend them a helping hand.

    But for the younger generation, they must learn to understand that if they want to live a good life, you must work hard to reach there. Always plan your life a few years ahead and not counting by the day. When you reach stage1, you must work harder to reach stage2. When you are at stage2, think of how to reach stage3 * beyond.

    Sounds like playing video game?

    Let me quote some examples.
    While having afternoon tea with a friend last week, he was telling me how disappointed he was with the newer generation. One of his staff was promoted to manager as he is doing a fantastic job consistently. Strangely enough after he was promoted, he did not appreciate what he has & started to skip work for no reason, giving lots of excuses and finally he's fired. This guy was terminated at stage2.

    Another one follow his footstep, he went AWOL joying life somewhere for a few days and even dare to message his boss to give him advance pay because he has no money to come back to work. What kind of logic is this? If he don't come to work, how is he going to have money?
    He also got fired. This guy did worst. He was terminated at stage1.

    Strangely enough, when he look for a new manager, when he told the applicant that there will be a sales quota, he even requested to look at the past months sales figures before he take up the job. This guy was terminated at stage0. He has not even started working and is already worried that he cannot meet the target. Has no self belief and cannot take risk? What a joke. If this is how our younger generation behave, the future of Singapore is not looking good. No wonder the government needs to import foreign talent.

    What's wrong with their mind and what kind of life is our younger generation living? If the foreign import can do it, why can’t they? Want to earn easy money? Will money just fall from the sky like that?

    In property, some want to buy & invest in prime district. Cannot afford it and ask the government to control the property price. Some can't afford hdb and also ask the government to do something.

    In short, you will never get richer if you don't think & plan your life few steps ahead & work towards it. I do agree that salary increase may not be able to catch up with the increase in property price. But if your salary doesn’t go up, isn't that worst? So salary increment is the first step you need to achieve. If it's still not enough, think of how to reach stage2 & stage3 & beyond. How to reach your desired stage is something each individual has to think hard and make plans for it to happen. No point complaining & seat there wait for things to happen.

    Oops. I better stop before someone blast me for writing long story.

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    Clap clap ... you should have been invited on the show.

    Reality bites & some people (got young but also got not-so-young, all kinds) just don't seem to get it This kinda debate is forever on-going, be it on the topic of foreign talent, etc. etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PN
    Strangely enough, when he look for a new manager, when he told the applicant that there will be a sales quota, he even requested to look at the past months sales figures before he take up the job. This guy was terminated at stage0. He has not even started working and is already worried that he cannot meet the target. Has no self belief and cannot take risk? What a joke. If this is how our younger generation behave, the future of Singapore is not looking good. No wonder the government needs to import foreign talent.

    It is a sensible thing to ask for, the targets in comparison to both the current sales and the prices of what he is selling. It could be that the company/manger is an idiot trying to set a target of S$1m when current sales are S$350,000 and each item costs S$10 each. You can imagine the volume increase the poor guy has to sell.

    It's not like each piece sells for S$305,000 and the poor guy "only" has to sell two more units to meet his target.

    Take a risk? In the current economic climate, and if he's currently working, making risky decisions comes with even more headaches than in normal times.

    PN: Having money opens up so many more oportunities and being poor even impacts the everyday necessities of food and education. No food, no energy. No education, no chance.

    teddybear: Evolution is supposed to make the fifth generation better than the fourth, the thirteenth better than the twelfth and so on. 20-yrs down the line we should NOT be living like our parents and grandparents. Forget the fact that in the past 10-20yrs the average size of apartments is getting smaller and smaller and even if we wanted to, we cannot live like we used to. Choices have been removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PN
    Some people say the rich will always be richer and the poor will always be poorer.

    It should be the rich can become richer if they make the money work harder for them, and the poor can become poorer more easily if they don’t work hard or work smart.

    In short, I believe it depends on what a person want to achieve in life. If you keep saying you want to become rich w/o doing anything, it’s as good as day dreaming.

    I still remember a Newspaper report about a young karong guni man who make it big by recycling the old materials. And not to forget those millionaires and billionaires out there who went through hardship (even bankruptcy) in their early life before they become successful. If a person don't work hard and only know how to complain and complain of not being able to afford hdb and government is not helping, he will only get poorer.

    For lonely old folks who has no one to depend on, “Yes” they are helpless unless the society and government can lend them a helping hand.

    But for the younger generation, they must learn to understand that if they want to live a good life, you must work hard to reach there. Always plan your life a few years ahead and not counting by the day. When you reach stage1, you must work harder to reach stage2. When you are at stage2, think of how to reach stage3 * beyond.

    Sounds like playing video game?

    Let me quote some examples.
    While having afternoon tea with a friend last week, he was telling me how disappointed he was with the newer generation. One of his staff was promoted to manager as he is doing a fantastic job consistently. Strangely enough after he was promoted, he did not appreciate what he has & started to skip work for no reason, giving lots of excuses and finally he's fired. This guy was terminated at stage2.

    Another one follow his footstep, he went AWOL joying life somewhere for a few days and even dare to message his boss to give him advance pay because he has no money to come back to work. What kind of logic is this? If he don't come to work, how is he going to have money?
    He also got fired. This guy did worst. He was terminated at stage1.

    Strangely enough, when he look for a new manager, when he told the applicant that there will be a sales quota, he even requested to look at the past months sales figures before he take up the job. This guy was terminated at stage0. He has not even started working and is already worried that he cannot meet the target. Has no self belief and cannot take risk? What a joke. If this is how our younger generation behave, the future of Singapore is not looking good. No wonder the government needs to import foreign talent.

    What's wrong with their mind and what kind of life is our younger generation living? If the foreign import can do it, why can’t they? Want to earn easy money? Will money just fall from the sky like that?

    In property, some want to buy & invest in prime district. Cannot afford it and ask the government to control the property price. Some can't afford hdb and also ask the government to do something.

    In short, you will never get richer if you don't think & plan your life few steps ahead & work towards it. I do agree that salary increase may not be able to catch up with the increase in property price. But if your salary doesn’t go up, isn't that worst? So salary increment is the first step you need to achieve. If it's still not enough, think of how to reach stage2 & stage3 & beyond. How to reach your desired stage is something each individual has to think hard and make plans for it to happen. No point complaining & seat there wait for things to happen.

    Oops. I better stop before someone blast me for writing long story.
    A Capitalist will agree wholeheartedly with you.

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    Story 1:
    One of the neighbours arrived in singapore 5 years ago. They got themselves an Indonesian maid, back then with a starting pay of $250 per month. Wakes up 6am, sleeps 11pm, works real hard and tremendously trustworthy. So trustworthy that it came to pass that the expat's friends, colleagues and even staff - when they wanted to get a maid, started to turn to her for recommendations.

    Today, she still works for the same family, earns $800 per month excluding bonuses, has every Sunday off, has a weekend car for her chores etc, and run a great sideline in her time off managing indonesian maids from her hometown, earning another $2000-3000 per month in commissions, and from some of these maids that help her resell phone cards on Sundays. She still works hard at her employer's as that job gives her the opportunity to earn those extra monies. She started with nothing, but when she goes back, she can prob open a string of bakeries.

    Story 2:
    A technician who has worked for 5 years for a mid sized company earning $2000 a month was asked to go for free training to upgrade his skills to a new system that the company was implementing. He refused, and insisted that since he was comfortable and doing great, he didn't want to change a thing. But the company's entire systems were going to be upgraded and if he didn't learn it, he wouldn't be able to operate it. An ultimatum was given - you either go for the free training, get certified, and have a 15% pay increment, or you will be made redundant.

    He wrote to his MP. Today he's on social assistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail
    It is a sensible thing to ask for, the targets in comparison to both the current sales and the prices of what he is selling. It could be that the company/manger is an idiot trying to set a target of S$1m when current sales are S$350,000 and each item costs S$10 each. You can imagine the volume increase the poor guy has to sell.

    It's not like each piece sells for S$305,000 and the poor guy "only" has to sell two more units to meet his target.

    Take a risk? In the current economic climate, and if he's currently working, making risky decisions comes with even more headaches than in normal times.

    PN: Having money opens up so many more oportunities and being poor even impacts the everyday necessities of food and education. No food, no energy. No education, no chance.

    teddybear: Evolution is supposed to make the fifth generation better than the fourth, the thirteenth better than the twelfth and so on. 20-yrs down the line we should NOT be living like our parents and grandparents. Forget the fact that in the past 10-20yrs the average size of apartments is getting smaller and smaller and even if we wanted to, we cannot live like we used to. Choices have been removed.
    You bring up an important point - Risk taking.

    How much risk an individual can take. In everyday life whatever you do there is this risk element. When you change job, you need to prepare to take some risk. When you decided to get married, also prepare to face the reality that your spouse may not be able to live happily forever after with you. Divorce is always a possiblity if you can't handle married life. When you have children, the pressure is even higher. Many couples fight & quarrel because of children. They have different opinion in how to bring up their children in terms of discipline, type of food to eat, what tie to sleep, etc, etc.

    Going back to changing job. For every job change, there is always a risk element involved. You demand for higher pay, be prepared to for higher demand from your new boss - No risk no gain. As pointed out by Gfoo as in story2, If a person just want to stay in his comfort zone & not willing to upgrade & take more risk or responsibility, don't complain about your pay and be preapred to be axed if you're seen as redundant.

    Each individual has potential that is not fully explored & utilized. How to bring out that potential in you is what your boss, a motivator or in certain cases by yourself. If you believe in yourself, work hard, work smart, learn from others and success will always be with you.

    Think about it, if a person can't take the risk involved as in the aboves. Is he prepared mentally to take the HUGE risk in buying a property? We are taking about hundreds of thousands and even millions of $. The pressure of paying the bank loan is a much bigger risk to take. Bank can be your best friend & can be your worst enemy. Bank go by the book without fail. If you fail to pay the monthly installment, you whole life will be even miserable.

    I'm not saying that people should take risk w/o doing the maths. Every step you take requires some considerations. This is calculated risk. If you know think that it's something you can bite, go for it. Onthe other hand if a person just want to stay in his comfort zone, you just have to face the fact that you salary & life will not improve much.

    I'm not born with a silver spoon in the mouth. My family is poor, very poor.
    Sometimes, we just eat porridge with some salt in it. When I was in primary school, my teacher pull me aside and ask why I don't have a telephone number for my personal details. I can only reply that my family cannot afford one. She couldn't believe it.

    If my mentaility is the same as our younger generation. I could be sweeping the road, doing odd jobs and struggling with my life now. Every job change I make and business to start up involves some risks.

    Bitter first and the sweet will come next. Again don't expect free lunch and money to fall from the sky. No risk no gain.

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