HDB HOUSING LAWS PASSED TOO FAST?

[jlrx]

The Government's intention is actually quite clear:

SPEECH BY MR LEE KUAN YEW, MINISTER MENTOR, AT THE KEY HANDOVER CEREMONY FOR THE PINNACLE@DUXTON, 13 DECEMBER 2009, 9:00 AM AT PINNACLE@DUXTON

HDB flat as an Asset

We moved to a system where each HDB flat is priced differently to reflect its real value. We cannot price a new flat in Punggol or Tanjong Pagar the same, because when they are resold, we know there will be a tremendous difference in price. From the 1980s, we moved towards a market-based system. By liberalizing the resale market and allowing HDB prices to move in tandem with the economy, we unlocked the value of HDB flats to allow citizens to share in the fruits of the nation’s growth. Home ownership of a HDB flat is a store of value that can be monetized when needs be.

So who are the people who are unhappy about HDB prices?

Could it be Granny Yeo?


Housewife Yeo Wee Geck, 85, is one. The grandmother of six lives with her only daughter and their maid in a five-room HDB flat in Marine Parade. She bought the 20th-storey unit in the early 1970s for $30,000. Today, buyers are willing to pay $500,000.

Definitely not the 82% of the population who stay in HDB, like Granny Yeo, or her only daughter who will one day inherit the flat, or her maid who will one day return to the Philippines or Indonesia.

Therefore, the only people who are "unhappy" are those with a big axe to grind with the Government.



They are just trying to work up resentment so that they can take over the country.

[xebay11]

The Government's intention is actually quite clear:

SPEECH BY MR LEE KUAN YEW, MINISTER MENTOR, AT THE KEY HANDOVER CEREMONY FOR THE PINNACLE@DUXTON, 13 DECEMBER 2009, 9:00 AM AT PINNACLE@DUXTON

HDB flat as an Asset

We moved to a system where each HDB flat is priced differently to reflect its real value. We cannot price a new flat in Punggol or Tanjong Pagar the same, because when they are resold, we know there will be a tremendous difference in price. From the 1980s, we moved towards a market-based system. By liberalizing the resale market and allowing HDB prices to move in tandem with the economy, we unlocked the value of HDB flats to allow citizens to share in the fruits of the nation’s growth. Home ownership of a HDB flat is a store of value that can be monetized when needs be.

So who are the people who are unhappy about HDB prices?

Could it be Granny Yeo?


Housewife Yeo Wee Geck, 85, is one. The grandmother of six lives with her only daughter and their maid in a five-room HDB flat in Marine Parade. She bought the 20th-storey unit in the early 1970s for $30,000. Today, buyers are willing to pay $500,000.

Definitely not the 82% of the population who stay in HDB, like Granny Yeo, or her only daughter who will one day inherit the flat, or her maid who will one day return to the Philippines or Indonesia.

Therefore, the only people who are "unhappy" are those with a big axe to grind with the Government.



They are just trying to work up resentment so that they can take over the country.

The only ppl who will resent the high HDB prices are either too young or not even born yet, pity them, don't mock them.

[jlrx]

The only ppl who will resent the high HDB prices are either too young or not even born yet, pity them, don't mock them.

Then who are those "COMPLAINERS" who have been making so much noise about HDB flat prices, if they are too young or have not even been born yet?

[jlrx]

To view the current debates on HDB prices in perspective, read the following letter to the Straits Times forums on 2 Jul 1980.

The writer, who called himself "NO LONGER AFFORD", wrote "The Housing Board has been complimented for its achievements in public housing over the last decade ... However, housing provided by the HDB today is no longer cheap ..."

Kindly look at the table below (dated 24 Jun 1980) and can someone explain why, e.g. a New Town at that time, such as Clementi's 3-Room Improved flat, increasing from $13,600 to $16,400 (an increase of $2,800) makes it "no longer cheap".?

[xebay11]

Then who are those "COMPLAINERS" who have been making so much noise about HDB flat prices, if they are too young or have not even been born yet?

Then who are the losers in the current generation's gains in increase in prices?

[teddybear]

Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price (for own stay or sell for big profit later) or those who shorted properties (hoping to make big profits later) or those who only know how to complain but take no action or those whose parents didn't plan for them to bestow them with a property (instead leave behind cash for them which becomes more & more worthless) when they grow up.

Then who are the losers in the current generation's gains in increase in prices?

[xebay11]

Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price (for own stay or sell for big profit later) or those who shorted properties (hoping to make big profits later) or those who only know how to complain but take no action or those whose parents didn't plan for them to bestow them with a property (instead leave behind cash for them which becomes more & more worthless) when they grow up.

Ok yes to some extent.

[amk]

...And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.

dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man !

Those who "ai pee ai qee" and want to buy at cheapest price... or those who only know how to complain but take no action...

exactly. Look if you are not smart enough to profit from an up cycle of property market, or stocks, or whatever investment, the 1st thing to blame is the government ? "for not taking care of me" ?? So you are just expected to spoon fed to the university, graduated, and must be guaranteed a job (if not complain too many FT/PR taking ur job), and guaranteed an "affordable" house, preferably near town with all amenities nearby, etc. If not, wow, big problem, the government is not doing the job right. PAP owes you this and that.

Cannot be like that lah! A market economy, albeit not 100%, still requires you to work hard (and smart). If you can't even profit from the current HDB policy, or the spectacular pty run in 2007, or the long bullish stock market years prior to 2008, you really have yourself to blame.

The only countries where you dun expect to work anything and expect to meet your every life aspiration is oil rich Brunei/Abu Dhabi, or if you want to go philosophical, a true blue communist society (where Karl Marx said every one only works what he can, and gets what he needs)

[maisonjai]

Yes..worst case scenario for those (owning both HDB and private property) who rely on HDB rental income to finance their loan for pte property..e.g. high leverage, is
1) Interest rate goes up and
2) Supply outweights demand resulting in oversupply and unit not rented out

then it's shopping time

[Regulators]

i somehow agree that propertism is a load of bullcrap. How can ptys be bought n nt sold when there is money to make in an upcycle? People buy cheap n sell hi so they get to upgrade in live in a better plc each time nt hold on to sme title n smiling at paper gains

dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man !


exactly. Look if you are not smart enough to profit from an up cycle of property market, or stocks, or whatever investment, the 1st thing to blame is the government ? "for not taking care of me" ?? So you are just expected to spoon fed to the university, graduated, and must be guaranteed a job (if not complain too many FT/PR taking ur job), and guaranteed an "affordable" house, preferably near town with all amenities nearby, etc. If not, wow, big problem, the government is not doing the job right. PAP owes you this and that.

Cannot be like that lah! A market economy, albeit not 100%, still requires you to work hard (and smart). If you can't even profit from the current HDB policy, or the spectacular pty run in 2007, or the long bullish stock market years prior to 2008, you really have yourself to blame.

The only countries where you dun expect to work anything and expect to meet your every life aspiration is oil rich Brunei/Abu Dhabi, or if you want to go philosophical, a true blue communist society (where Karl Marx said every one only works what he can, and gets what he needs)

[greenhorn]

Let me try to inject some sanity into this idealogy called Propertism.

It is wrong to think that properties are to be bought ONLY and not sold. It is also not right to think that properties are to be traded like changing clothes.

Compare one who have kept his sole flat for 25 years faithfully. Sure, value goes up during that time. Now compare to another who bought and sold and upgraded to other properties and scaled up. Plenty of evidences around to tell us that the latter would have ended up the far richer of the two.

As we all know, property moves in cycles. Windows of opportunties for buying and selling are littered all over - just need to look for it. Also depends on whether you are hungry (not greed) or contented (complacent and satisfied with life)...

You decide which sides you wanna be. It all depends on your spirit of enterprise, financial savviness, risk appetite and luck.

[EBD]

i somehow agree that propertism is a load of bullcrap. How can ptys be bought n nt sold when there is money to make in an upcycle? People buy cheap n sell hi so they get to upgrade in live in a better plc each time nt hold on to sme title n smiling at paper gains

You mean buy low, sell high? wow shocker

Only problem with property is selling takes so long. Getting out around the peak can be a tough , and buying back into a falling market nerve racking but you can potentially be much better off if you can pull it off.

Also depends on whether unit is for own stay or if you have multiple units.

[mcmlxxvi]

dun like that lah ! can't u see jlrx is injecting some fun into all this ? I for one really enjoy his pictorial illustrations. Keep it up man !

I for one am starting to suspect that jlrx's take on 'Propertism' is actually satire brought to the highest level - i.e. he's being sarcastic all this while wrt our gahmen policies.

[Regulators]

i think he bought some properties during the high coz propertism is only relevant to such people. Propertists are basically wave watchers, not wave riders...

I for one am starting to suspect that jlrx's take on 'Propertism' is actually satire brought to the highest level - i.e. he's being sarcastic all this while wrt our gahmen policies.

[xebay11]

Give jlrx some credit for propertism, there is no real right and wrong.

Some ppl sold their properties in the past but now cannot afford to buy similar type, so not all who sold could make gains and upgrade or roll.

Some luckier ones sold and cashed out and rolled and made even more money.

[jlrx]

I sold both my leedon and tulip condo to the same HK investor (leaseback the tulip from him) in 1996. If I had practiced your stupid nonsense, I wouldn't have made my 1st mio which allows me to rollover and purchase a few properties in 1998, and that is excluding the 10 yrs of opportunity costs forgone until leedon was enbloc in 2007 if i had held on to it. And not forgetting, Tulip is still looking for a buyer now as we speak. So I'm sorry, you are just talking rubbish.

The above transactions, i.e. selling during the Singapore market peak of 1996 and then buying again after the market crashed in 1998, entail a skill that many believe exist, but which actually does not - the ability to forecast property price movements.

It was just pure luck.

If such skills had existed, then GIC, which hired talents each paid more than $10 million p.a. (according to MM Lee) would not have sunk US$5.4 billion into New York real estate, Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town, just before it sank.

Here we are talking about talents of the best, and very best kind. Yet they were as blind as bats.

The only reason for the rise in your fortunes, ironically, was Propertism - the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value!

However, you were just trading this property for that, selling here, buying there. To me, that is a waste of time.

There is no way anyone can know (except with the benefit of hindsight), which property is going up vis-a-vis which, or which country is going down vis-a-vis which.

It's like children jumping around on a rising escalator.

Since the escalator (i.e. property prices) is going up anyway, just stay still and let it move you up.

On the other hand, jumping around from one step to another (even though still going up), entails risks such as being stuck in the gap, and ending up as one of those "Straits Times forum complainers" writing letters complaining of high property prices.

[HP65]

The above transactions, i.e. selling during the Singapore market peak of 1996 and then buying again after the market crashed in 1998, entail a skill that many believe exist, but which actually does not - the ability to forecast property price movements.

It was just pure luck.

If such skills had existed, then GIC, which hired talents each paid more than $10 million p.a. (according to MM Lee) would not have sunk US$5.4 billion into New York real estate, Peter Cooper Village and Stuyvesant Town, just before it sank.

Here we are talking about talents of the best, and very best kind. Yet they were as blind as bats.

The only reason for the rise in your fortunes, ironically, was Propertism - the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value!

However, you were just trading this property for that, selling here, buying there. To me, that is a waste of time.

There is no way anyone can know (except with the benefit of hindsight), which property is going up vis-a-vis which, or which country is going down vis-a-vis which.

It's like children jumping around on a rising escalator.

Since the escalator (i.e. property prices) is going up anyway, just stay still and let it move you up.

On the other hand, jumping around from one step to another (even though still going up), entails risks such as being stuck in the gap, and ending up as one of those "Straits Times forum complainers" writing letters complaining of high property prices.

hahaha, I can't believe you actually managed to make me laugh with your escalator analogy on the kids jumping, i give you credit for that

On hindsight, actually i think i was too reckless to have sold both my properties. I should have kept 1 at least, the one over my head. I admit I was fortunate, not so much foresight, and a strong gut feel that things were running ahead too fast and decided that enough is enough. But for investment properties, i think its necessary to cash out to realize the profits (profits gain vs rental yield). But to avoid losing the value of money, one should always stay invested with the profits gained, be it physical property, stocks or alternative investments.

[jwong71]

To view the current debates on HDB prices in perspective, read the following letter to the Straits Times forums on 2 Jul 1980.

The writer, who called himself "NO LONGER AFFORD", wrote "The Housing Board has been complimented for its achievements in public housing over the last decade ... However, housing provided by the HDB today is no longer cheap ..."

Kindly look at the table below (dated 24 Jun 1980) and can someone explain why, e.g. a New Town at that time, such as Clementi's 3-Room Improved flat, increasing from $13,600 to $16,400 (an increase of $2,800) makes it "no longer cheap".?

If this writer was just renting flat,from hdb all this while just bcoz he doesnt want to lose the extra $2800.. Who's the biggest loser in the end.??

[jlrx]

hahaha, I can't believe you actually managed to make me laugh with your escalator analogy on the kids jumping, i give you credit for that

On hindsight, actually i think i was too reckless to have sold both my properties. I should have kept 1 at least, the one over my head. I admit I was fortunate, not so much foresight, and a strong gut feel that things were running ahead too fast and decided that enough is enough. But for investment properties, i think its necessary to cash out to realize the profits (profits gain vs rental yield). But to avoid losing the value of money, one should always stay invested with the profits gained, be it physical property, stocks or alternative investments.

That's the idea behind the whole Propertism idea - staying invested.

I think a lot of people here have misunderstood my statement Properties should only be bought. Not sold.

What I mean is "Properties" as a class of investment. Not the specific property that you are holding.

If you want to sell a property, then make sure you quickly buy a replacement property (although I consider this to be a meaningless exercise because we won't know which property will outperform another).

I have also sold a property before, via en bloc to a developer, but quickly bought a replacement property (fortunately so).

What one should never do is to sell a property and then keep the money in the bank, because paper money loses its value very rapidly, or else one may end up like this writer.

If this writer was just renting flat,from hdb all this while just bcoz he doesnt want to lose the extra $2800.. Who's the biggest loser in the end.??

[jwong71]

That's the idea behind the whole Propertism idea - staying invested.

I think a lot of people here have misunderstood my statement Properties should only be bought. Not sold.

What I mean is "Properties" as a class of investment. Not the specific property that you are holding.

If you want to sell a property, then make sure you quickly buy a replacement property (although I consider this to be a meaningless exercise because we won't know which property will outperform another).

I have also sold a property before, via en bloc to a developer, but quickly bought a replacement property (fortunately so).

What one should never do is to sell a property and then keep the money in the bank, because paper money loses its value very rapidly, or else one may end up like this writer.

Yes,i quickly bought replacement unit,when i sold to cash out..

No point to preached the propertism idea further.. Coz the smart had understand this meaning and stay vested, while those who dont understand and just hoping to make quick bucks by wishing to buy at lows. And complaining all these while..

Propertism idea will never go into them,and therefore they will never be "THERE"

[jlrx]

No point to preached the propertism idea further.. Coz the smart had understand this meaning and stay vested, while those who dont understand and just hoping to make quick bucks by wishing to buy at lows. And complaining all these while..

The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance

The enemies of Propertism will never rest, hence I must continuously sprinkle Holy Water to cast away these demons .

Read the following letter to the Straits Times forums dated 23 Jun 1981:

"Only govt can bring property prices down" - "Property prices have gone up beyond anyone's expectations and short of government action prices will not come down ...

Imposing a ban (at least temporary, say for three years) on non-residents buying houses, flats and condominiums;

Making it obligatory for solicitors to give to the Controller of Income Tax the name of every person in whose name an agreement is entered into (including every sub-sale) for the purchase of a house or unit;

Probing into malpractices by developers who use fictitious names to book units for speculation;

Probing into non-residents who bought and are buying houses using nominee citizens;

Every citizen who buys a house or unit should sign a staturoy declaration to the effect that the property was purchased for himself out of his own funds;

The banks which give loans and overdrafts should certify that the borrower/purchaser and no outsider arranged the finance.

I have every confidence that prices will fall to pre-escalation level once government takes firm action along these lines.

A VERY WORRIED CITIZEN"





If-These-Are-Escalated Prices

21 Apr 1981 - District 11 Mandalay Court Lower Penthouse 2,700 sq ft asking $585,000 ($217 psf).

Then-What-Do-You-Call-These Prices?

29 Jan 2010 - District 11 The Ansley (formerly Mandalay Court) 1,302 sq ft transacted $1,520,000 ($1,167 psf).

As in every religion, there will be some who are converted ; some who can never be ; but some who are convertible .

I am preaching to convert the convertible .

[greenhorn]

Urrhmmm....

Grand Master, to worship "Propertism", do we need to burn lots of hell notes ($$) and offer frequent prayers to the Heavenly King Mah? This way, by practicing faithfully over time, we gain assurance of getting answers to our wishes?