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Thread: HDB HOUSING LAWS PASSED TOO FAST?

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    Default HDB HOUSING LAWS PASSED TOO FAST?

    I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
    Responsive to complaints government. Look at all the new laws to control foreigners and PR's as well. LOL

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    i think we are the only country in the world that passes laws faster than one has enough time to change clothes.

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    Will it affects current owners? I mean if it doesn't, then it's ok. Anyway, this is what singaporeans want right?

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    those who keep complaining to the govt are the goons at the end of the day. Assuming they buy a resale flat they dont like, they will get stuck wth it for 3 long yrs b4 they can change to anthr flat LOL. Got money buy pte so dnt hv to abide by some crap regulatns. Anyway hv to tolerate wth not just MOP, but also graffitti, urine at stairways n lifts, loan shark harrassment, unwantd fliers etc for that 3yrs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squall8888
    Will it affects current owners? I mean if it doesn't, then it's ok. Anyway, this is what singaporeans want right?

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    xebay11 is offline New Launch Project Specialist
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    I think the real problem driving up demand (prices) for HDB is not so much private pty owners buying HDB flats for investment, thereby creating artificial demand, it is actually the HDB owners who are buying private property and NOT selling their HDB that is creating problems.

    I think there should be a ruling that HDB owners are only allowed to own pte property for first 5 years or upon TOP, whichever comes first, after that they have to sell it back to HDB at original subsidised price including any grants given.

    This will immediately free up ALOT of HDB flats and private condos and help supply and moderate prices in both sectors.

    Nowadays any fool can buy $1m condo with 10% and use HDB rental to finance the monthly instalment.

    HDB/PAP are you listening?

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    This govt is very scared of its citizens so must do everything to please them to the detriment of non nationals

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    Thought of that too but understood why this isn't implemented. It would almost immediately cause a plunge in property prices

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
    The new MOP of 3 yrs only affects new resale applications wef 5th Mar. Thus existing owners who for `financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons' need to down grade will still be able to sell within 1 yr. Its those who buys from now onwards that is affected. This is good and encourages prudent spending, sans speculative, dangerous activity. Implicitly, MBT is telling people buying a flat requires long term financial planning. If you over-stretch yourself, and can't even hold for 3 yrs, then one might consider buying a cheaper flat or a smaller flat where no matter what happens, you can still hold for 3 yrs or more.

    I have said moons ago that our ppty mkt (public and pte) is highly speculated and if px rise too fast, the govt will take necessary actions to tame the raging bull. Their intentions are clear but you choose to distort their intentions just because it might disrupt your plans to flip your ppty at higher prices? Its laughable you even hope the opposition will raise this matter. Why don't you raise it yourself instead of asking the opposition to take up the matter? If you really feel so much for the disadvantaged, why don't you take up the course yourself? Talk so much and make it seem so noble , haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmet
    Thought of that too but understood why this isn't implemented. It would almost immediately cause a plunge in property prices
    that'll be great! right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ppc88
    that'll be great! right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.
    That (plunge) will not happen as it has no benefits to the country and government.

    The general rule is that it will only affect speculators as genuine occupiers don't buy/sell their flats within 3yrs. Ask yourself, how many newly bought (whether resale or direct from HDB) HDB apartments are there in the market? Percentage wise, this falls below 10% of the total in SG. Genuine upgraders who are holding on to their 5yr old flat can sell and upgrade, no problem whatsoever.

    The end results, this will stabilize the property market and maintain current prices forever. That's the very least or prices might even launch higher.
    Last edited by pmet; 06-03-10 at 13:18.

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    Agree. If I am one of those upgrader who stretched to buy the 1mil ppt, I would sell my HDB now then later.
    Quote Originally Posted by ppc88
    that'll be great! right now, those who want to sell their HDBs to finance their new condo purchases may have more difficulty if demand eases, which means they will be more gan cheong as TOP approaches. the more losers there are, the more it teaches those people in HDB to think long long first before buying private.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    I was out at work the whole day yesterday and by the time I reached home, the law was passed upping the minimum occupation period for non-subsidised flat to 3 years and several other measures. A law as such affecting tens of thousands of people in Singapore can be passed in a day or less than a week? Where is our so called democracy? What if there are people who need to downgrade due to financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons? i think our garmen is too consumed with imposing anti-speculation measures that they fail to look at other real life issues people might face. 3 years is a bloody long time to force people to hold on to their flats even when a person has fully paid for the flat and not taking any subsidy from the garmen. I hope the opposition will raise this up during the coming elections and may the people open up their eyes more to what kind of govt we have....
    all this while u thought SG is a democracy??? hahaha

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    <But the new policy comes with strings attached. Currently, cash sales proceeds from the sale of a flat need not be used for the purchase of the next one. But with the change, sellers can only keep the greater of $25,000 or half of the cash proceeds. The remaining cash and CPF balance has to be used to finance the purchase of the next flat if they take up a HDB concessionary loan..>

    There's more...
    What happens to those who genuinely needs to selloff their HDB flats and use the cash proceeds for other uses when TOP comes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by viosrider
    <But the new policy comes with strings attached. Currently, cash sales proceeds from the sale of a flat need not be used for the purchase of the next one. But with the change, sellers can only keep the greater of $25,000 or half of the cash proceeds. The remaining cash and CPF balance has to be used to finance the purchase of the next flat if they take up a HDB concessionary loan..>

    There's more...
    What happens to those who genuinely needs to selloff their HDB flats and use the cash proceeds for other uses when TOP comes?
    then use bank loan for 2nd purchase lor...

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    hahaha, r u 1 of those disgruntled homebuyers who missed several boats? People have all along bought n sold their flats according to hdb rules so now hdb is fussing about just becoz electn is coming n they need to appease people?? Why do they need to blame the speculators for hi flat pxs when we all knw who orchestrated it? Very simple, all hdb needs to do is to change the way hdb flats r valued (not basing on the flawed comparative method wth other transactns nearby).
    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    The new MOP of 3 yrs only affects new resale applications wef 5th Mar. Thus existing owners who for `financial difficulties or a thousand and 1 other reasons' need to down grade will still be able to sell within 1 yr. Its those who buys from now onwards that is affected. This is good and encourages prudent spending, sans speculative, dangerous activity. Implicitly, MBT is telling people buying a flat requires long term financial planning. If you over-stretch yourself, and can't even hold for 3 yrs, then one might consider buying a cheaper flat or a smaller flat where no matter what happens, you can still hold for 3 yrs or more.

    I have said moons ago that our ppty mkt (public and pte) is highly speculated and if px rise too fast, the govt will take necessary actions to tame the raging bull. Their intentions are clear but you choose to distort their intentions just because it might disrupt your plans to flip your ppty at higher prices? Its laughable you even hope the opposition will raise this matter. Why don't you raise it yourself instead of asking the opposition to take up the matter? If you really feel so much for the disadvantaged, why don't you take up the course yourself? Talk so much and make it seem so noble , haha.

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    Have u forgotten our Pledge? There may not be democracy in practice but to blatantly disregard it is anthr matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by august
    all this while u thought SG is a democracy??? hahaha

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmet
    The end results, this will stabilize the property market and maintain current prices forever. That's the very least or prices might even launch higher.
    How can properties maintain current prices forever?

    Propertism Religion Rule No. 1 - Property prices will always go up in the long term simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value.

    Of course your second statement "prices might even launch higher." is correct. Anyone who thinks otherwise will turn into dinosaur skeleton waiting 31 years yet "No Reply from Authorities", like the Straits Times Forum Complainer (MSDOS Version) below, who wrote in 1979 "So much has been said about the ESCALATION OF PROPERTY PRICES , yet the authorities concerned have not commented".



    If CKM had spent time doing more productive things like looking at the property classifieds, instead of writing complaint letters to the Straits Times, he/she might have come across this advertisment in 1979.



    Perhaps the "Authorities" today can reply "Dear CKM, Please explain why $79,000 for a condominium is considered ESCALATION OF PROPERTY PRICES ? What ESCALATION are you talking about? Are you aware that one day $79,000 can't buy you even an HDB three room flat? If you don't quickly grab that $79,000 condo, how long are you still going to wait for property prices to "plunge"?"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    Have u forgotten our Pledge? There may not be democracy in practice but to blatantly disregard it is anthr matter.

    go see your MP lor, haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    hahaha, r u 1 of those disgruntled homebuyers who missed several boats? People have all along bought n sold their flats according to hdb rules so now hdb is fussing about just becoz electn is coming n they need to appease people?? Why do they need to blame the speculators for hi flat pxs when we all knw who orchestrated it? Very simple, all hdb needs to do is to change the way hdb flats r valued (not basing on the flawed comparative method wth other transactns nearby).
    Thankfully I boarded the Singapore property boat long before this forum was even created and save for 3 local pte ppty that I have no intention to sell unless 2 of them gets enbloc, I have no desire to get onto the Sg ppty boat. I'm quite happy to let you guys fight it out, seriously. I'm only concerned with the social impact for the future generation if ppty px are unattainable for my kids...ok, I had that sorted which is why I'm keeping 2 condos but i'm sure there will be others out there who are worried for their kids.

    Besides, in a short space of 18 mths, I have already bought and sold numerous overseas ppty and save for a townhouse at Verdue which I contemplated buying, none other ppty in Sg interests me at all. While you are right I missed the recent Sg ppty boat but I'm not disgruntled as I boarded a more rewarding ppty boat overseas....ok, I have to admit I'm squared for a ppty in Canary Wharve due to the depreciation of the pound.

    I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....
    How could it be that if you "had just exited the mkt 3 mths late," you're "probably dead by now"?

    Leedon Heights was en blocked in April 2007 to GuocoLand for $835 million, so each of the 314 units would have fetched $2.66 million, on average.

    Instead, it should be that if you "had not exited the mkt at all," you "would make even more money by now"?

    This is another example of the benefits of Propertism Rule No. 1 - Properties should only be bought. Not sold. Unless through En Bloc. Then quickly get a replacement property.

    Another benefit of believing in Propertism, the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, is that there is no need to be afraid of "speculation" or "burnt flesh".

    For example, 1981 was a highly speculative year when "RIDICULOUS PRICES" were set.

    See how "RIDICULOUS" some of these prices were, e.g. 2,400 sq ft Chen Yuan Apartment (the former site of Urbana at 1 River Valley Close) asking $800,000 or $333 psf.

    RIDICULOUS!!!




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    hdb sets the rules for people and people buy and sell their properties according to the rules meted out by the government so why is the government blaming us for anything? Demographics in singapore has changed since years back when immigration was more stringent and it is inevitable for people to buy and sell houses due to several factors ranging from the need to upgrade to accommodate new family members, the need to downgrade due to old age and many more reasons. if the government is really interested to control the prices of hdb, shouldnt they start relooking at the way property prices are valued instead? Why should a 5 room flat in Mei Ling Street be valued at $780000 just becoz some idiot is willing to pay $800000 plus for a 5 room flat in that area? It is stupid to even suggest that speculators are driving up prices of HDB flats when HDB does the valuation and send prices sky rocketing. HDB has created an environment for home sellers to thrive, i.e. future valuations are always based on past transacted prices in the area (which will always and almost certainly be higher each time). if they really want to curb rising prices of hdb flats, they should not be looking to pinpoint their fingers at so called speculators but rather look at the methods they employ in valuing properties. Deviating from past trasacted prices is the way to start if they really want to control prices of hdb flats, not restricting people from selling their flats for 3 years and cutting back on loans which unduely penalises those in hardship and need to sell their flat for money or those who are doing too well in their career and looking to upgrade to a bigger flat in 1 year.

    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    Thankfully I boarded the Singapore property boat long before this forum was even created and save for 3 local pte ppty that I have no intention to sell unless 2 of them gets enbloc, I have no desire to get onto the Sg ppty boat. I'm quite happy to let you guys fight it out, seriously. I'm only concerned with the social impact for the future generation if ppty px are unattainable for my kids...ok, I had that sorted which is why I'm keeping 2 condos but i'm sure there will be others out there who are worried for their kids.

    Besides, in a short space of 18 mths, I have already bought and sold numerous overseas ppty and save for a townhouse at Verdue which I contemplated buying, none other ppty in Sg interests me at all. While you are right I missed the recent Sg ppty boat but I'm not disgruntled as I boarded a more rewarding ppty boat overseas....ok, I have to admit I'm squared for a ppty in Canary Wharve due to the depreciation of the pound.

    I'm not sure how seasoned you guys are in the ppty mkt. For me, I've only been thru 2 cycles? First entered the mkt in the 90s thru Tulip Gdn and Leedon Hts. Made my 1st mio mainly from the exodus of hong kongers to sg. If I had just exited the mkt 3 mths late, I'm probably dead by now. While I do not claim to be seasoned in ppty, I can keenly smell it when speculation is in the air. Burnt smell is nice, just make sure its not your flesh that is burnt.....

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    you go on and on in this entire forum selling the idea of propertism when there is nothing more than inflation coupled with strong economic fundamentals that drive property prices up over the years. My parents who were just drawing $400 a month income in the early 80s would be drawing 20 times that amount today. Likewise for a property sold at $200000 in the 1980s and valued at $1mil or even 2 mil today is quite normal and no big hoohah.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlrx
    How could it be that if you "had just exited the mkt 3 mths late," you're "probably dead by now"?

    Leedon Heights was en blocked in April 2007 to GuocoLand for $835 million, so each of the 314 units would have fetched $2.66 million, on average.

    Instead, it should be that if you "had not exited the mkt at all," you "would make even more money by now"?

    This is another example of the benefits of Propertism Rule No. 1 - Properties should only be bought. Not sold. Unless through En Bloc. Then quickly get a replacement property.

    Another benefit of believing in Propertism, the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term, is that there is no need to be afraid of "speculation" or "burnt flesh".

    For example, 1981 was a highly speculative year when "RIDICULOUS PRICES" were set.

    See how "RIDICULOUS" some of these prices were, e.g. 2,400 sq ft Chen Yuan Apartment (the former site of Urbana at 1 River Valley Close) asking $800,000 or $333 psf.

    RIDICULOUS!!!




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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulators
    you go on and on in this entire forum selling the idea of propertism when there is nothing more than inflation coupled with strong economic fundamentals that drive property prices up over the years. My parents who were just drawing $400 a month income in the early 80s would be drawing 20 times that amount today. Likewise for a property sold at $200000 in the 1980s and valued at $1mil or even 2 mil today is quite normal and no big hoohah.
    If everyone can think like you, then I can retire from preaching the Propertism religion.

    However the fact is, everytime there is a crisis (which is bound to happen every few years), some idiots will panic and dump their properties in fire sales causing prices to fall.

    What I am trying to show these idiots is that they had been just IDIOTS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xebay11
    I think the real problem driving up demand (prices) for HDB is not so much private pty owners buying HDB flats for investment, thereby creating artificial demand, it is actually the HDB owners who are buying private property and NOT selling their HDB that is creating problems.

    I think there should be a ruling that HDB owners are only allowed to own pte property for first 5 years or upon TOP, whichever comes first, after that they have to sell it back to HDB at original subsidised price including any grants given.

    This will immediately free up ALOT of HDB flats and private condos and help supply and moderate prices in both sectors.

    Nowadays any fool can buy $1m condo with 10% and use HDB rental to finance the monthly instalment.

    HDB/PAP are you listening?
    Quite a lot of interesting views on this thread, from HDB housing policies to the definition of democracy. Let me add my 2 cents worth:

    1) One of the key elements of democracy lies in the one man, one vote system. Everyone has a right to determine who (and which party) he/she wants to vote for, regardless of his/her social stature or income level. Therein lies the greatest challenge to HDB's public housing policy. With home ownership for citizens (aka THE Voters) at more than 80%, any policy that devalues their greatest asset (aka the HDB flat) is vastly unpopular. But any policy that causes wild speculative movement in HDB prices is not popular either. A long term (stable) appreciation of HDB prices keeps the HDB dwellers happy, and provides the floor for mass market condo prices, and also keep the remaining 12-15% of Singaporeans in mass market condos happy. Hence, any key election strategy will always be aimed at the long term sustainable appreciation of HDB flats (eg main upgrading programs, lift upgrading, precinct upgrading, MRT/LRT lines etc etc), and not the reverse trend.

    2) To dictate that HDB owners (aka the voters) sell off their flat within 5 years of owning a private property does not address the full concern, nor will it alleviate the problem of escalation in flat prices. 5 years is sufficient for at least 1-2 property cycles, and market synergies (of demand and supply) might have changed during that period. And this unfairly penalises property investment (in Singapore) as an asset class vis-a-vis other asset classes.

    To me, the appreciation of HDB prices in matured estates is largely due to the flexible policy behind subletting (and the difficult albeit loose enforcement against illegal subletting). The rental yield, and the ease of rental income, behind the HDB flat has induced many to purchase HDB or hang onto them as part of their property portfolio, and led to the escalation of HDB prices in recent years. So what if a 3 room flat in Queenstown costs $400k? If someone can rent it out for $1.8k per month, the yield is still attractive; not to mention that the person remains vested in all future upgrading programs.

    Should the Govt be really serious about keeping the lid on prices and ensuring genuine demand, then the most logical path is to return to the fundamentals of the HDB housing policy, which is to provide housing for its citizens. Public housing is for purely self-stay purposes, not for speculation, not for rental. However, this policy will again prove unpopular to those who have benefitted/are benefitting from the loose rental policy and definitely not a pre-election measure. Hence we shall all wait and see if the market still calls for further "refinements" to MBT's policies.

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    good thoughts!

    The beauty of it is that the worst it becomes, the more likelyhood that drastic measures will be introduced. It is a slow and gradual road to death... Everyone walks down that road. Just when it is the time to walk... now we are just talking about walking or having baby steps.. we'll run when the time comes.

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    xebay11 is offline New Launch Project Specialist
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    new2mondrian

    What I suggested is definitely not popular but I believe it will temper property prices.

    As first time HDB owners, that actually means that they have deprived another really needy person of one queue space, subsidy (real or perceived) and govt grant, so if this group of people have done well enough to buy another private property without selling their HDB, they are well and truly sucessful in the Singapore dream, therefore should rightfully give up their subsidised flat, or at least pay back the difference in current market price and original purchase price and whatever grant they have taken. Or make it MANDATORY that they continue to stay in their HDB regardless of MOP and as long as they hold on to private property.

    This will have the effect of freeing up more flats for those who cannot hold HDB and private pty and make others think twice about owning private property while still holding on to their HDBs and this would have a siginificant impact on increasing supply, as this HDB owner buying pte pty group is large and growing.

    I have no qualms about private property owners buying HDB at open market prices including COVs, this would in effect enrich HDB owners and as a resale flat, there are no grants or subsidies taken so no foul.

    In a truly democratic structure the rich must be able prosper and be rewarded for hard work and achievements. They less well off should be helped but not at the expense of the other less well off.

    BTW I am curious as to your gender, your public profile shows you as male but sometimes you claim to be a mom
    Last edited by xebay11; 08-03-10 at 10:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xebay11
    new2mondrian

    BTW I am curious as to your gender, your public profile shows you as male but sometimes you claim to be a mom
    Oops.... u mean there is a public profile option? I think it's defaulted to male then for any new sign-ups. I have never accessed my own public profile....

    Let me go figure it out, and I'll change it. Wah lau, how to be male and a mom?!!! I am definitely a female and proud of it.

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    I have just changed it! Gosh.... there is even a "Don't Know" in the gender option.... what is the world coming to???!!!

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    xebay11 is offline New Launch Project Specialist
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    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    I have just changed it! Gosh.... there is even a "Don't Know" in the gender option.... what is the world coming to???!!!
    LOL you have been a 'male' for 2 years

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