Buy A HDB Flat?

[bepgof]

2 mnth back got a 530k, 31yr pt blk 5 rm resale @ #23. Reno pro will takes 70k-90k. Have been staying in condo for past 3 yrs, seldom use facilities, paying $332/mnth not worth. Property tax is quite substaintial for holding 2 proty, @4% & 10%...

[bepgof]

New2mondrain, I agreed with Xebay11. Wondering HOW MUCH you PAID for yr PROPERTY TAX! for these 3 units. 3 yrs back, I held a hdb 5rm and a 3 beder condo concurrently. During which, 5rm has been fully paid and rented out for $1400/mnth, I paid $1.7k/mnth for condo insta. Anual valuation for condo = $15,000, x 0.04 = $600, mnthly=$50! so on so for. Gov is rich for people contributing toward stamp fee.

[Reporter]

Are investors pushing up prices of resale flats?
The Straits Times
Monday, 19 October 2009



With the relaxation of Housing Board restrictions over the years, it has become easier for a savvy Singaporean to make a relatively quick buck from buying a flat.

Since 2007, an owner need live in his flat for only three years before he can rent it out, if the flat was bought without a housing grant or subsidy.
For someone who enjoyed a subsidy or a grant, it is five years.

It is therefore no surprise to hear of people with investment acumen snapping up flats even if they already own private property, with an eye on the potential rent they can earn.

It is no small sum. Three-room flats in Toa Payoh fetched a median rent of $1,500 a month in the April to June period.

Rising resale prices could also mean that some buyers are taking a bet of another sort - rushing for flats in prime locations in the hope of getting a windfall when they sell them after the minimum occupation period.

Disgruntled house-hunters have asked if private property owners should be allowed to buy resale flats at all, given that the resale market is where first-time home-seekers head to if they cannot wait out the three years needed for the HDB to build subsidised flats.

But just how much of an impact do these investment-driven buyers have on the market?

When Insight asked the HDB what the proportion of private property owners among flat buyers was, it replied that 'exact figures are not readily available', but that the proportion was 'low'.

Meanwhile, there are no ready statistics on the number of flat buyers who sell off their properties immediately after the mandated period.

The HDB carries out periodic inspections to ensure flats are occupied, but policing is admittedly difficult. About 23,000 flats are now rented out legally. The number of recalcitrant owners who rented their flats illegally has dropped over the past three years, from 62 in 2007 to 17 from January to August this year.

As for flat owners who do not occupy their flats, the HDB has taken action against only one household since 2007. The board is in the process of acquiring it from the offending owners.

Property agency chiefs do not think investors hold much sway over the HDB resale market.

A private property owner who buys a resale flat would have to change his home address to that of the flat for at least three years. PropNex's chief executive Mohamed Ismail doubts most private property owners want that hassle.

In fact, given the climb in resale prices, investors are probably staying away, says ERA Asia-Pacific's associate director Eugene Lim.

He tells Insight: 'Buying at higher prices means lowering the rate of rental return. Most savvy investors will want to buy low and rent high to maximise returns.'

Economist Liu Yunhua from Nanyang Technological University feels that home-seekers should not begrudge the small minority of private property owners who buy resale flats for investment. After all, they are not entitled to the housing subsidies afforded to the majority of Singaporeans.

He says: 'As long as they do not get direct help from the Government, let them use their own method to get a share of land wealth. Their impact is very limited anyway, as they can buy only one flat each.'

Given the paucity of statistics, it is hard to say whether investors are driving up the prices of resale flats. Perhaps it is time for the HDB to start tracking home ownership patterns on this front.

[bepgof]

Speaking of HDB resale flats, does the 30 year financing limitation apply like what new2mondrian said in ealier post?

New is wrong, I have secured a 90% loan from UOB for a 31year old 5 rm flat in Aug 09.

[new2mondrian]

Speaking of HDB resale flats, does the 30 year financing limitation apply like what new2mondrian said in ealier post?

apologies. i wasn't clear in posting that comment. basically it is not a financing limitation for flats that are above 30 years; but rather when one buys a 30 plus years old HDB flat, the flat's remaining lease term would be close to 60years and below upon resale. With there being 60years of lease (or less) left, CPF ruling on the quantum of CPF funds which can be utilised for the flat kicks in. Which means any buyer of your resale unit better be cash rich enough to fund the unit in cash when the CPF limit is reached. This may be problematic when trying to resell the flat later.

http://ask-us.cpf.gov.sg/hybrid/Them...Id=&SourceId=0

Q:How much can I withdraw from my CPF to buy a property with remaining lease of at least 60 years? A:

You can use your Ordinary Account savings, and the future monthly CPF contributions in this account to buy the property and/ or to pay the monthly instalments of the housing loan up to 100% of the Valuation Limit (VL). The VL is the lower of the purchase price or the value of the property at the time of purchase.
If your housing loan is still outstanding when the total CPF usage for the property reaches 100% VL and you are below the age of 55, you may continue to use your CPF Ordinary Account savings to repay the housing loan up to the applicable Withdrawal Limit if you can set aside half of the prevailing Minimum Sum. Savings in the Special Account (including the amount used for investments) and Ordinary Account can be used to meet this required amount. Please click here for more details.

However if you are 55 years and above when the VL is reached, you may use the excess CPF Ordinary Account savings to repay the housing loan after setting aside half of the Minimum Sum that is applicable to you.For more information on Minimum Sum, click here.

[new2mondrian]

New2mondrain, I agreed with Xebay11. Wondering HOW MUCH you PAID for yr PROPERTY TAX! for these 3 units. 3 yrs back, I held a hdb 5rm and a 3 beder condo concurrently. During which, 5rm has been fully paid and rented out for $1400/mnth, I paid $1.7k/mnth for condo insta. Anual valuation for condo = $15,000, x 0.04 = $600, mnthly=$50! so on so for. Gov is rich for people contributing toward stamp fee.

actually the best way to ensure a capital guaranteed model is to find lots of milo tins and tie the dollar notes into wads and place them inside, and hide those milo tins under the bed. no sub-prime crisis, no counter-party risk, no stock price fluctuation.... but do watch out for termites...

as long as one has substantial reserves to pay up most of the amount loaned and is comfortably leveraged, it is an each-to-his-own model. at the end of the day, investment is a choice, leveraging is a choice, and diversification of portfolio is a choice. Some love it in equities, some love it in properties, some love it in insurance, some love it in gold bars, some love it in milo tins. that's how the economy keeps humming.

[gfoo]

i read with interest that some of the bros here would rather - given a choice - bring up a family in a HDB than private. this is an interesting dynamic for me as i was never brought up in one, and my personal experience stems from my first marital property which was sold after 3 years. i've also stayed at senggang for a couple of weeks while transitioning renovations. here are my observations, and i am using straits times terminology so as not to be seditious.

there exists a very apparent social divide. at the upper flrs of the carpark you find beemers, mbs, porsches and maseratis; while the lower floors carry the cherries and kias of which a good many are weekend plates. a good many of these had tanned owners. every quarter there would always be an instance in the upper decks - cashcard/laptop/hp

every couple of months there will be at least one instance of theft/breakins at flats - some reported and ST, most are not

in the late wkend evenings, the compound is chock full of miscreants playing loud music, and playgrounds are littered w syringes. again, mostly the tanner variety.

in the afternoons, unites colors of ahbengs and ahlians at the void deck playing truant, some drinking and most smoking.

in the 2 weeks at senggang, a wrx had his mod parts stripped, and there were 2 fights at the nearby kopitiam



the above were strong reasons i gave up on hdb - it's no longer safe for kids today imho.

[teddybear]

Thanks for sharing. Heard of something similar from friends living in HDBs before but I just wondered whether what my friends said were just one-off coincidence or it is really common nowsdays. While the country has progressed in terms of GDP headlines, is the social quality and youngs' characters actually degenerating in the HDB neighbourhood?

i read with interest that some of the bros here would rather - given a choice - bring up a family in a HDB than private. this is an interesting dynamic for me as i was never brought up in one, and my personal experience stems from my first marital property which was sold after 3 years. i've also stayed at senggang for a couple of weeks while transitioning renovations. here are my observations, and i am using straits times terminology so as not to be seditious.

there exists a very apparent social divide. at the upper flrs of the carpark you find beemers, mbs, porsches and maseratis; while the lower floors carry the cherries and kias of which a good many are weekend plates. a good many of these had tanned owners. every quarter there would always be an instance in the upper decks - cashcard/laptop/hp

every couple of months there will be at least one instance of theft/breakins at flats - some reported and ST, most are not

in the late wkend evenings, the compound is chock full of miscreants playing loud music, and playgrounds are littered w syringes. again, mostly the tanner variety.

in the afternoons, unites colors of ahbengs and ahlians at the void deck playing truant, some drinking and most smoking.

in the 2 weeks at senggang, a wrx had his mod parts stripped, and there were 2 fights at the nearby kopitiam



the above were strong reasons i gave up on hdb - it's no longer safe for kids today imho.

[august]

there exists a very apparent social divide. at the upper flrs of the carpark you find beemers, mbs, porsches and maseratis; while the lower floors carry the cherries and kias of which a good many are weekend plates. a good many of these had tanned owners. every quarter there would always be an instance in the upper decks - cashcard/laptop/hp

now that u mention, in the condo i stay at, the cars at the underground carpark seems to have a "social divide" too - the continental cars all seem to congregate at one area aka CCR, while the rest of the jap korean made car at RCR hahaha

[gfoo]

now that u mention, in the condo i stay at, the cars at the underground carpark seems to have a "social divide" too - the continental cars all seem to congregate at one area aka CCR, while the rest of the jap korean made car at RCR hahaha

lol. jap and even hyundais are ok - many hidden millionaires drive em. but to trust family safety to milk tins like cherries and pimentos .... i've seen enough NS highway accident photos being emailed around that taking such risks ain't worth it. any of you who have groomwerkz package, when u sens your car in fr grooming indent one cherry qq from yong and drive - you'll see what i mean. the problem us that such milk tin owners want their car to be 'evoz' so bad that they lup on loud exhos, loud stickers, and bling bling flickering lights - that they start driving on the roads like they are evos. damn dangerous

[xebay11]

apologies. i wasn't clear in posting that comment. basically it is not a financing limitation for flats that are above 30 years; but rather when one buys a 30 plus years old HDB flat, the flat's remaining lease term would be close to 60years and below upon resale. With there being 60years of lease (or less) left, CPF ruling on the quantum of CPF funds which can be utilised for the flat kicks in. Which means any buyer of your resale unit better be cash rich enough to fund the unit in cash when the CPF limit is reached. This may be problematic when trying to resell the flat later.

http://ask-us.cpf.gov.sg/hybrid/Them...Id=&SourceId=0


Q:How much can I withdraw from my CPF to buy a property with remaining lease of at least 60 years? A:

You can use your Ordinary Account savings, and the future monthly CPF contributions in this account to buy the property and/ or to pay the monthly instalments of the housing loan up to 100% of the Valuation Limit (VL). The VL is the lower of the purchase price or the value of the property at the time of purchase.

If your housing loan is still outstanding when the total CPF usage for the property reaches 100% VL and you are below the age of 55, you may continue to use your CPF Ordinary Account savings to repay the housing loan up to the applicable Withdrawal Limit if you can set aside half of the prevailing Minimum Sum. Savings in the Special Account (including the amount used for investments) and Ordinary Account can be used to meet this required amount. Please click here for more details.

However if you are 55 years and above when the VL is reached, you may use the excess CPF Ordinary Account savings to repay the housing loan after setting aside half of the Minimum Sum that is applicable to you.For more information on Minimum Sum, click here.

Thanks that is exactly the info I was looking for. As I went to view many old 3 rm HDBs for investment, looks like not good idea.

[focus]

lol. jap and even hyundais are ok - many hidden millionaires drive em. but to trust family safety to milk tins like cherries and pimentos .... i've seen enough NS highway accident photos being emailed around that taking such risks ain't worth it. any of you who have groomwerkz package, when u sens your car in fr grooming indent one cherry qq from yong and drive - you'll see what i mean. the problem us that such milk tin owners want their car to be 'evoz' so bad that they lup on loud exhos, loud stickers, and bling bling flickering lights - that they start driving on the roads like they are evos. damn dangerous

YES! ABSOLUTELY HATE THE SOUND FROM MOD CARS AND BIKES!
Especially in the middle of the night.

Sometimes I wished I could throw water bombs at them from my flat and hopefully crash a few of them.. but then ... it's illegal... sobsob

[xebay11]

YES! ABSOLUTELY HATE THE SOUND FROM MOD CARS AND BIKES!
Especially in the middle of the night.

Sometimes I wished I could throw water bombs at them from my flat and hopefully crash a few of them.. but then ... it's illegal... sobsob

Condos also have pros and cons, if you face the pool there are hundreds of screaming kids on the weekends. So far I find non-pool facing condo or landed property best for peace and serenity.

[stocker]

YES! ABSOLUTELY HATE THE SOUND FROM MOD CARS AND BIKES!
Especially in the middle of the night.

Sometimes I wished I could throw water bombs at them from my flat and hopefully crash a few of them.. but then ... it's illegal... sobsob

Mod cars and bikes are in private estates too, and they are much noiser!! Think harley davidsons and lambo and ferrari with Larnis or Tubis!!

[focus]

Mod cars and bikes are in private estates too, and they are much noiser!! Think harley davidsons and lambo and ferrari with Larnis or Tubis!!

Uh... I thought harleys and lambos and ferraris are all loud by birthright.. no need mod already damn loud?

Sorry, dont know much about cars, i not into cars.

But yes! Please turn down the volume when you are driving loud cars! Don't revv the engine so hard!

[focus]

Condos also have pros and cons, if you face the pool there are hundreds of screaming kids on the weekends. So far I find non-pool facing condo or landed property best for peace and serenity.

Yes, if got views, then buy non-pool facing. If no views, then better get pool facing. At least got eye-candies.. i rather face the pool than face a block of bricks across the road

[wreckwrx]

Uh... I thought harleys and lambos and ferraris are all loud by birthright.. no need mod already damn loud?

Sorry, dont know much about cars, i not into cars.

But yes! Please turn down the volume when you are driving loud cars! Don't revv the engine so hard!

My neighbor drives a M3 and you can hear him before you even see his car... And there are a couple of Porsche and one Nissan GTR in the same development as well.... and for sure they are much louder than a bunch of vios/ suzuki swift with operated exhaust pipes...

[stocker]

Dunno all these can pass LTA or not?

[xebay11]

Mod cars and bikes are in private estates too, and they are much noiser!! Think harley davidsons and lambo and ferrari with Larnis or Tubis!!

My neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maserati, quite loud when he backs into the drive way, but other then that no revving.

[focus]

My neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maserati, quite loud when he backs into the drive way, but other then that no revving.

Wa... your neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maserati...

and to be his neighbour..also buay kan tan (not easy)..hor...

U live in D10 GCB one ah?

[jlrx]

My neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maserati, quite loud when he backs into the drive way, but other then that no revving.

Wa... your neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maserati...

and to be his neighbour..also buay kan tan (not easy)..hor...

U live in D10 GCB one ah?

Since xebay11's neighbour has a few Ferraris and Maseratis, xebay11 himself may have a few Porsches and Lamborghinis.

Hence he cannot complain about the neighbour, otherwise the neighbour will complain about him.

Must be mutually tolerant.

[gfoo]

stock sounds from high capacity engines like ferraris etc have a low bassy gurgle, and doesnt sound too bad

kuitao and exhoz mods for low capacity engines like 1.2l, 1.6l etc create drone and are loud screamers. those are the irritating POSs you hear late at night

in the States, these poseurs are named 'ricers'. in malaysia, 'rempits'

in Singapore, can call them 'armpits'.

Personally i just call them CBs

[andy]

As for leaving properties to the next generation, I have never believed in that. I would gladly invest $1M or more in educating my child and equipping him with the right skill sets (hopefully) to adapt to an ever-changing landscape, but not leave a cent nor a single property to him... too much money to the next generation be more often be a bane than a blessing. My two

Interesting. A famous person once said you should give your children enough so they could do anything but not enough such that they do not have to work.

Life's skill is a must. However, properties, if we have, we have to give these away because where you are going you are not going to need it

[gfoo]

New2mondrian's view is not wrong and should be respected, it's just at another societal facet - one shouldn't generalize that all old money is bad influence.

A good education, upbringing and passing-on of guanxi are givens. Old money should never be rebuked or taught as a wrong thing. Rather it's what the descendants do to multiply it for future generations to multiply that counts.
Wasted fortunes and the idle rich is a condition of a failed and neglected upbringing in the first place.

[andy]

New2mondrian's view is not wrong and should be respected, it's just at another societal facet - one shouldn't generalize that all old money is bad influence.

A good education, upbringing and passing-on of guanxi are givens. Old money should never be rebuked or taught as a wrong thing. Rather it's what the descendants do to multiply it for future generations to multiply that counts.
Wasted fortunes and the idle rich is a condition of a failed and neglected upbringing in the first place.

Didn't say he was wrong about equipping kids with education and life's skills. As you said these are a given.

But having done that and not entrust one cent to your decendents means either you have failed in your duty or they are mentally impaired.

I mean what else are you going to do with the wealth you have apart from donating the proceeds to charity.

[gfoo]

Didn't say he was wrong about equipping kids with education and life's skills. As you said these are a given.

But having done that and not entrust one cent to your decendents means either you have failed in your duty or they are mentally impaired.

I mean what else are you going to do with the wealth you have apart from donating the proceeds to charity.

agreed.

some i know have conditional trusts funds - maybe that could be a good way to go about things: all assets property etc into a trust, manage the trust like a company in line with economic growth, cockup 3 times and the trust cuts you off and benefits charity.

something like that maybe

[jlrx]

Didn't say he was wrong about equipping kids with education and life's skills. As you said these are a given.

But having done that and not entrust one cent to your decendents means either you have failed in your duty or they are mentally impaired.

I mean what else are you going to do with the wealth you have apart from donating the proceeds to charity.

I have to agree with andy.

Education's value is getting less vis-a-vis property's value.

No matter what professions our children pursue, they will find the value of human resource increasing decimated by an overpopulated world. Engineers have been vanquished; doctors mauled; and lawyers are now watching in horror, as the flood gate opens.

Giving our children a good education alone without properties is like sending our well-trained commandos to war without weapons.

It will only turn them into prolific letter writers who flood the Straits Times ad nauseum with complaints about rising property prices.

[gfoo]

I have to agree with andy.

Education's value is getting less vis-a-vis property's value.

No matter what professions our children pursue, they will find the value of human resource increasing decimated by an overpopulated world. Engineers have been vanquished; doctors mauled; and lawyers are now watching in horror, as the flood gate opens.

Giving our children a good education alone without properties is like sending our well-trained commandos to war without weapons.

It will only turn them into prolific letter writers who flood the Straits Times ad nauseum with complaints about rising property prices.

everyone has a different method. for me i wouldn't go that far as to give lock stock and barrel. after JC/army, my kid will have use of any of the family's properties either shared or himself till he wants to get his own place - but it will never be transferred in his name. the extent i will go is to part-fund his first marital home. If the in-laws are of equal status, then possible each spouse will each get 50% as a matrimonial gift. nothing beyond that tho.

[shespawn]

I have to agree with andy.

Education's value is getting less vis-a-vis property's value.

No matter what professions our children pursue, they will find the value of human resource increasing decimated by an overpopulated world. Engineers have been vanquished; doctors mauled; and lawyers are now watching in horror, as the flood gate opens.

Giving our children a good education alone without properties is like sending our well-trained commandos to war without weapons.

It will only turn them into prolific letter writers who flood the Straits Times ad nauseum with complaints about rising property prices.

very true. More wealth leave to the children also lead to them suing each other about their fair share. just look at those recent court cases involving the rich. i rather leave everything to a foundation, that gives the poor more opportunity to succeed in their life. just look at Warren Buffet.

[Reporter]

stock sounds from high capacity engines like ferraris etc have a low bassy gurgle, and doesnt sound too bad

kuitao and exhoz mods for low capacity engines like 1.2l, 1.6l etc create drone and are loud screamers. those are the irritating POSs you hear late at night

in the States, these poseurs are named 'ricers'. in malaysia, 'rempits'

in Singapore, can call them 'armpits'.

Personally i just call them CBs

... remind me of motorcycles's sounds ... especially at night ...

Those jokers who revved their 125cc at night really irritate me.
However, I love the low bassy sound of a 1,100cc. It's so ***y!

I stopped riding bike after I upgraded my licence to Class 2. What a waste!

agreed.

some i know have conditional trusts funds - maybe that could be a good way to go about things: all assets property etc into a trust, manage the trust like a company in line with economic growth, cockup 3 times and the trust cuts you off and benefits charity.

something like that maybe

everyone has a different method. for me i wouldn't go that far as to give lock stock and barrel. after JC/army, my kid will have use of any of the family's properties either shared or himself till he wants to get his own place - but it will never be transferred in his name. the extent i will go is to part-fund his first marital home. If the in-laws are of equal status, then possible each spouse will each get 50% as a matrimonial gift. nothing beyond that tho.

I like the idea managing the assets/estate with a trust.

The assets/estate will be theirs but they must earn their rights. This is where proper upbringing (by the parents - not the schools) will teach them to earn that.