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Thread: Watermark - Hong Leong Holdings (Freehold/999yrs)

  1. #1
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    Default Watermark - Hong Leong Holdings (Freehold/999yrs)

    Watermark ("WM")

    Hi all,
    Just want to get some feedback on your views for this Project. I tried to do a quick search for previous threads on this but not very successful (though results returned do include threads which mentioned the word "Watermark", but it appears a specific Watermark thread was not really set up. This said, I could have missed it as I was just looking very quickly).

    Believed WM TOPed about 8 months now and understand most of the units have been tenanted out - apparently at very low rates as the owners were all trying to lease it out during the Feb - March period. I went to see a number of units and most of them have a similar characteristics as follows:-

    1. Unit has a tenancy agreement in place, most of them has at least another 1.5 years to go.

    2. Most of the rentals was signed at a ridiculously low price. One of the prime river front unit entered into a 2 + 1 (option at the discretion of tenant) year tenancy agreement at SGD3.4psf/mth!! . Understand that agreement has no excess for all repairs. For each and every replacement item, owner has to pay from the 1st dollar onwards. Several other terms are also not fantastic for owner. Understand this is not specific to this unit but also exist in some other units agreement.

    Like this development but the rental in place seems to be more of a liability/punitive punishment rather than an asset. Any views??

  2. #2
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    Either tha landlord did the rental marketing himself, or his agent did not protect the landlord interest, or the landlord is desperate for tenants, everthing also agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Watermark ("WM")

    Hi all,
    Just want to get some feedback on your views for this Project. I tried to do a quick search for previous threads on this but not very successful (though results returned do include threads which mentioned the word "Watermark", but it appears a specific Watermark thread was not really set up. This said, I could have missed it as I was just looking very quickly).

    Believed WM TOPed about 8 months now and understand most of the units have been tenanted out - apparently at very low rates as the owners were all trying to lease it out during the Feb - March period. I went to see a number of units and most of them have a similar characteristics as follows:-

    1. Unit has a tenancy agreement in place, most of them has at least another 1.5 years to go.

    2. Most of the rentals was signed at a ridiculously low price. One of the prime river front unit entered into a 2 + 1 (option at the discretion of tenant) year tenancy agreement at SGD3.4psf/mth!! . Understand that agreement has no excess for all repairs. For each and every replacement item, owner has to pay from the 1st dollar onwards. Several other terms are also not fantastic for owner. Understand this is not specific to this unit but also exist in some other units agreement.

    Like this development but the rental in place seems to be more of a liability/punitive punishment rather than an asset. Any views??

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Watermark ("WM")

    Hi all,
    Just want to get some feedback on your views for this Project. I tried to do a quick search for previous threads on this but not very successful (though results returned do include threads which mentioned the word "Watermark", but it appears a specific Watermark thread was not really set up. This said, I could have missed it as I was just looking very quickly).

    Believed WM TOPed about 8 months now and understand most of the units have been tenanted out - apparently at very low rates as the owners were all trying to lease it out during the Feb - March period. I went to see a number of units and most of them have a similar characteristics as follows:-

    1. Unit has a tenancy agreement in place, most of them has at least another 1.5 years to go.

    2. Most of the rentals was signed at a ridiculously low price. One of the prime river front unit entered into a 2 + 1 (option at the discretion of tenant) year tenancy agreement at SGD3.4psf/mth!! . Understand that agreement has no excess for all repairs. For each and every replacement item, owner has to pay from the 1st dollar onwards. Several other terms are also not fantastic for owner. Understand this is not specific to this unit but also exist in some other units agreement.

    Like this development but the rental in place seems to be more of a liability/punitive punishment rather than an asset. Any views??

    this is something that has happened or will happen ..

    i kept arguing about the rental yield , in Rivergate .. renting out at 6-7k just covers the mortgage..

    some said they buying time, wait for price to go up then sell ..

    now price is higher .. can they sell if its tenanted ? can they force the tenant to break the lease ?

    who wants to buy at such a high price for w tenanted unit at ridiculous rental ..?

    so those who rent low to 'tie' over the low price period ..is now caught.. cannot sell unless they force tenant to move out ..
    cannot sell becos no buyer willing to buy tenanted unit with low yield

    LPPL

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    Thanks for the comments and inputs thus far. I have this mini "situation" which I came across and would like to seek some views from fellow forummers here. I keep to the key points so that its easier to read

    + Unit is about 3.4psf/month
    + Owner is selling with tenancy, left 1.5 years.
    + Based on the PSF level demanded (owner refused to back down anymore after several discussions), unlevered yield net of (i) property tax, (ii) annual maintenance, (iii) cash tax for the relevant tax bracket is less than 2.5%!!
    + Return on equity (based on current rates) is 4.5% but this plunges very quickly as soon as SOR/SIBOR starts to rise. A sensitivity on increase in SIBOR/SOR of 50bps is a 1.5% reduction (i.e. drops to 3.1%!!!) on ROE. This is no surprise. This yield analysis is important, to the extent, it relates to the period prior to maturity of the lease.
    + Owner mentioned there is an option provision in the tenancy agreement whcih can be exercised at the discretion of the tenant. When asked about the details, agents hardly know anything about it and owner is not keen to show the terms of the tenancy agreement. Owner is ONLY willing to show the tenancy agreement after they received the 1% (which does not help or offer any protection, as the money would have been out of the door by then).
    + If you look at AAA/AA+ grade (senior) corporate bonds can easily you about 6% off the secondary market now. Tenor for these bonds are about 2-2.5 years left. Unrated (but good underlyings) corporate bonds can yield about 8+%. Comparing the above property with alternate investments in the wholesale market makes my heart cringe... ...
    + I do like this unit, but the above economics just make the deal less interesting.

    Anyone has similar situation before ??? Its a case where you like it but the rational mind tells you not to....

    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    this is something that has happened or will happen ..

    i kept arguing about the rental yield , in Rivergate .. renting out at 6-7k just covers the mortgage..

    some said they buying time, wait for price to go up then sell ..

    now price is higher .. can they sell if its tenanted ? can they force the tenant to break the lease ?

    who wants to buy at such a high price for w tenanted unit at ridiculous rental ..?

    so those who rent low to 'tie' over the low price period ..is now caught.. cannot sell unless they force tenant to move out ..
    cannot sell becos no buyer willing to buy tenanted unit with low yield

    LPPL

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    are you buying to stay or for investment. either case, the owner is selling with tenancy. meaning to say, he is passing the low yield, all the shit he promise in the tenancy to you.

    Is it worth the risk, unless you forsee the price will appreciate in 1.5 yrs+option provision time. The killer is the option provision, dont know what was promise, another 2 yrs at the same rental?

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Thanks for the comments and inputs thus far. I have this mini "situation" which I came across and would like to seek some views from fellow forummers here. I keep to the key points so that its easier to read

    + Unit is about 3.4psf/month
    + Owner is selling with tenancy, left 1.5 years.
    + Based on the PSF level demanded (owner refused to back down anymore after several discussions), unlevered yield net of (i) property tax, (ii) annual maintenance, (iii) cash tax for the relevant tax bracket is less than 2.5%!!
    + Return on equity (based on current rates) is 4.5% but this plunges very quickly as soon as SOR/SIBOR starts to rise. A sensitivity on increase in SIBOR/SOR of 50bps is a 1.5% reduction (i.e. drops to 3.1%!!!) on ROE. This is no surprise. This yield analysis is important, to the extent, it relates to the period prior to maturity of the lease.
    + Owner mentioned there is an option provision in the tenancy agreement whcih can be exercised at the discretion of the tenant. When asked about the details, agents hardly know anything about it and owner is not keen to show the terms of the tenancy agreement. Owner is ONLY willing to show the tenancy agreement after they received the 1% (which does not help or offer any protection, as the money would have been out of the door by then).
    + If you look at AAA/AA+ grade (senior) corporate bonds can easily you about 6% off the secondary market now. Tenor for these bonds are about 2-2.5 years left. Unrated (but good underlyings) corporate bonds can yield about 8+%. Comparing the above property with alternate investments in the wholesale market makes my heart cringe... ...
    + I do like this unit, but the above economics just make the deal less interesting.

    Anyone has similar situation before ??? Its a case where you like it but the rational mind tells you not to....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    + Unit is about 3.4psf/month
    + Owner is selling with tenancy, left 1.5 years.
    + Based on the PSF level demanded (owner refused to back down anymore after several discussions), unlevered yield net of (i) property tax, (ii) annual maintenance, (iii) cash tax for the relevant tax bracket is less than 2.5%!!
    + Return on equity (based on current rates) is 4.5% but this plunges very quickly as soon as SOR/SIBOR starts to rise. A sensitivity on increase in SIBOR/SOR of 50bps is a 1.5% reduction (i.e. drops to 3.1%!!!) on ROE. This is no surprise. This yield analysis is important, to the extent, it relates to the period prior to maturity of the lease.
    ROE 4.5% is quite ok leh. how much loan u taking?


    + Owner mentioned there is an option provision in the tenancy agreement whcih can be exercised at the discretion of the tenant. When asked about the details, agents hardly know anything about it and owner is not keen to show the terms of the tenancy agreement. Owner is ONLY willing to show the tenancy agreement after they received the 1% (which does not help or offer any protection, as the money would have been out of the door by then).
    get the agent to do some work, chase seller for the agreement with names/details blanked out. nuts to part 1% cash just to know terms of agreement. Is there something to hide? the more the seller refuse to reveal the more uncomfortable i would be..

    if seller still refuse and i am still keen on the pty, then i would mark down my offer price further by 1 or 2%.. fair is fair, i got to manage the unknown risk, rite?

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    - Net yield of about 2.5% is common now based on current property price and rental transacted, so not that bad actually.
    - Owner selling with tenancy locked at current rental rate for 1.5 years can be good or bad:
    (a) Good if rental continues to slide (especially if transacted price continue to increase)
    (b) Bad if rental increase (which is unlike in short-term).
    - Only caveat is to check what is promised in the tenancy agreement. However, 2 years tenancy + 1 year optional renewal is common. By renewal time, the rental can still be negotiated to current market rate, so no issue here. Tenant can't demand the low rental they previously got if market rate has also gone up.
    - Talk about corporate bonds, well they are different investments. The yield is expected to be higher for their reasons especially those with short tenure left, can't compare to property investment here which is expected to be longer term investment.
    - If you believe interest rate is expected to rise, you should go for fixed rate loan with longest locked in period (e.g. DBS fixed rate loan of 1.99%, 2.19%, 2.29% respectively for first 3 years). By end of 3rd years, then you can decide what you want to do with the property (sell or hold) and the loan (refinance or pay off) etc.
    - At the end of day, if for own stay and you really like at, then current market price in CCR still look reasonable price (for resale properties only, not the new launch). If for investment, then you have to consider whether will the price appreciate further. Rental is immaterial if you intend to sell 2-3 years down the road (as long as net-net your rental yield is still higher than loan interest).

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Thanks for the comments and inputs thus far. I have this mini "situation" which I came across and would like to seek some views from fellow forummers here. I keep to the key points so that its easier to read

    + Unit is about 3.4psf/month
    + Owner is selling with tenancy, left 1.5 years.
    + Based on the PSF level demanded (owner refused to back down anymore after several discussions), unlevered yield net of (i) property tax, (ii) annual maintenance, (iii) cash tax for the relevant tax bracket is less than 2.5%!!
    + Return on equity (based on current rates) is 4.5% but this plunges very quickly as soon as SOR/SIBOR starts to rise. A sensitivity on increase in SIBOR/SOR of 50bps is a 1.5% reduction (i.e. drops to 3.1%!!!) on ROE. This is no surprise. This yield analysis is important, to the extent, it relates to the period prior to maturity of the lease.
    + Owner mentioned there is an option provision in the tenancy agreement whcih can be exercised at the discretion of the tenant. When asked about the details, agents hardly know anything about it and owner is not keen to show the terms of the tenancy agreement. Owner is ONLY willing to show the tenancy agreement after they received the 1% (which does not help or offer any protection, as the money would have been out of the door by then).
    + If you look at AAA/AA+ grade (senior) corporate bonds can easily you about 6% off the secondary market now. Tenor for these bonds are about 2-2.5 years left. Unrated (but good underlyings) corporate bonds can yield about 8+%. Comparing the above property with alternate investments in the wholesale market makes my heart cringe... ...
    + I do like this unit, but the above economics just make the deal less interesting.

    Anyone has similar situation before ??? Its a case where you like it but the rational mind tells you not to....

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    for those that have been in the mkt for some time, its no surprise how much the SOR/Sibor can spike up within a short period of time and maintain there for quite a while.

    Corporate bond is not so diff in investment. Cos the whole basis people are using as a rationale for investing in property nowadays is because the deposit rate is meager, and isn't deposit a even shorter tenure investment???

    If its not comfortable........dun have to stretch to buy......
    Property is one of the most important investment in our (for most of us) life and dun forget its on leverage......so exercise caution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Thanks for the comments and inputs thus far. I have this mini "situation" which I came across and would like to seek some views from fellow forummers here. I keep to the key points so that its easier to read

    + Unit is about 3.4psf/month
    + Owner is selling with tenancy, left 1.5 years.
    + Based on the PSF level demanded (owner refused to back down anymore after several discussions), unlevered yield net of (i) property tax, (ii) annual maintenance, (iii) cash tax for the relevant tax bracket is less than 2.5%!!
    + Return on equity (based on current rates) is 4.5% but this plunges very quickly as soon as SOR/SIBOR starts to rise. A sensitivity on increase in SIBOR/SOR of 50bps is a 1.5% reduction (i.e. drops to 3.1%!!!) on ROE. This is no surprise. This yield analysis is important, to the extent, it relates to the period prior to maturity of the lease.
    + Owner mentioned there is an option provision in the tenancy agreement whcih can be exercised at the discretion of the tenant. When asked about the details, agents hardly know anything about it and owner is not keen to show the terms of the tenancy agreement. Owner is ONLY willing to show the tenancy agreement after they received the 1% (which does not help or offer any protection, as the money would have been out of the door by then).
    + If you look at AAA/AA+ grade (senior) corporate bonds can easily you about 6% off the secondary market now. Tenor for these bonds are about 2-2.5 years left. Unrated (but good underlyings) corporate bonds can yield about 8+%. Comparing the above property with alternate investments in the wholesale market makes my heart cringe... ...
    + I do like this unit, but the above economics just make the deal less interesting.

    Anyone has similar situation before ??? Its a case where you like it but the rational mind tells you not to....
    For CCR properties, investment objective is inclined towards capital appreciation n not rental yield (like Hong Kong). For FH prime pty, gross yield can be as low as 2.8%. If yield is your investment objective, go for other instruments/ OCR properties/ HDB/ commercial ptys.

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    i can't agree more. Anyone buying a 700sqft The Sail at 2000psf would be looking at only 4.2% rental yield if the place is rented for $5000 a month, and that is if anyone even wants to pay $5000 to rent such a mickey mouse unit . A $700000 decent sized 3 bedder in the OCR near MRT if rented at $3000 a month earns 5.1% rental yield which is better for rental investment.


    Quote Originally Posted by jc
    For CCR properties, investment objective is inclined towards capital appreciation n not rental yield (like Hong Kong). For FH prime pty, gross yield can be as low as 2.8%. If yield is your investment objective, go for other instruments/ OCR properties/ HDB/ commercial ptys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW

    + If you look at AAA/AA+ grade (senior) corporate bonds can easily you about 6% off the secondary market now. Tenor for these bonds are about 2-2.5 years left. Unrated (but good underlyings) corporate bonds can yield about 8+%. Comparing the above property with alternate investments in the wholesale market makes my heart cringe... ...
    Hi DW, where can I see the prices of corporate bonds and how can I go about buying? The yields are looking more attractive than property rental yields now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilander
    Hi DW, where can I see the prices of corporate bonds and how can I go about buying? The yields are looking more attractive than property rental yields now.
    Contact your RM in your relationship bank. A lot of these bonds are traded in the secondary markets, at a discount. The yield I am talking about is YTM and not just coupon yield.

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    Those that sell in bundle of $250k per transaction? Previously was being offered Capitaland or CMT (can't remember which one) offering 4+% coupon but I deemed it as unworthy of investment because of the high risks involved as the company too highly geared and I expect the bond price to drop going forward as more higher yield instruments become available. Buying any type of bonds now is (I believe) a very poor investment as it cannot hedge against inflation which we will soon see once economy firms up.

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Contact your RM in your relationship bank. A lot of these bonds are traded in the secondary markets, at a discount. The yield I am talking about is YTM and not just coupon yield.

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    Default Wanted: Watermark units for multiple purchase

    Dear all,

    My clients from overseas are coming to Singapore on Mid October to invest in private residential properties. Watermark is one of their choice condo.

    Their requirements are as follows:

    1) 2 bedrooms or smaller;
    2) Regular shaped interior;
    3) Attractive pricing;
    4) Floor Plan required;
    5) Interior photos provided will be wonderful

    Call me at +65-92993342 or email property details including floor plan & interior pictures to [email protected] before Thursday, 8 Oct 2009 3pm.

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    $1,400 psf?
    Quite a good high for Watermark, isn't it?


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area ........ Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #09-09 .... $1,400 psf o.. 904 sqft .... $1,265,000 ..... 29 Dec 09

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    $1,400 psf?
    Quite a good high for Watermark, isn't it?


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area ........ Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #09-09 .... $1,400 psf o.. 904 sqft .... $1,265,000 ..... 29 Dec 09

    looks like the seller is a happy man.

    Watermark, i will offer $1280psf - $1320psf

    If there are genuine sellers, contact me.

    direct seller to direct buyer transaction preferred.

    direct seller save on fees, i save on hearing bullshit.

    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle
    looks like the seller is a happy man.

    Watermark, i will offer $1280psf - $1320psf

    If there are genuine sellers, contact me.

    direct seller to direct buyer transaction preferred.

    direct seller save on fees, i save on hearing bullshit.

    thanks
    I am not sure if that $1,400-psf seller is a happy man.
    But I do know this latest seller who has recorded a nw hgh of $1,404 psf is a happy man. He should be as his unit is 5 levels lower than the former's.


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area ........ Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #04-09 .... $1,404 psf o.. 926 sqft .... $1,300,000 ..... 30 Dec 09

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    I am not sure if that $1,400-psf seller is a happy man.
    But I do know this latest seller who has recorded a nw hgh of $1,404 psf is a happy man. He should be as his unit is 5 levels lower than the former's.


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area ........ Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #04-09 .... $1,404 psf o.. 926 sqft .... $1,300,000 ..... 30 Dec 09

    $4psf makes a difference between happy or not ???


    Please, i already said, save me the bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle, 1 week ago
    $4psf makes a difference between happy or not ???


    Please, i already said, save me the bullshit.
    OK, since you talk so "big" as if the world owe you a liviing, let me save you the bullshit of $4 psf difference.

    $1,507 psf - $107 psf difference.
    Buy it now. Otherwise, cut your bullshit from this thread.


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area .......... Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #08-10 .... $1,507 psf o.. 1,055 sqft .... $1,590,000 ..... 25 Jan 09

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    OK, since you talk so "big" as if the world owe you a liviing, let me save you the bullshit of $4 psf difference.

    $1,507 psf - $107 psf difference.
    Buy it now. Otherwise, cut your bullshit from this thread.


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area .......... Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #08-10 .... $1,507 psf o.. 1,055 sqft .... $1,590,000 ..... 25 Jan 09
    Haha. Make me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    OK, since you talk so "big" as if the world owe you a liviing, let me save you the bullshit of $4 psf difference.

    $1,507 psf - $107 psf difference.
    Buy it now. Otherwise, cut your bullshit from this thread.


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ....................... psf .............. Area .......... Price ............. Contract Date
    1 Rodyk Street #08-10 .... $1,507 psf o.. 1,055 sqft .... $1,590,000 ..... 25 Jan 09
    I dont think 've talked big at all in this thread or this forum so do yourself some good and stop displaying your inferiority complex.

    everybody here knows that having 7 digits in the bank account is no big deal these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle, 13 February 2010 11.46 pm
    I dont think 've talked big at all in this thread or this forum so do yourself some good and stop displaying your inferiority complex.

    everybody here knows that having 7 digits in the bank account is no big deal these days.
    I don't remember saying it is a big deal of having 7 digits in the bank. I am OK on my part. You can tell that yourself. I couldn't care less.


    If you did not "talk big", I wouldn't have replied. I am waiting for you next "talk big" and "offensive" reply. I have all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reporter
    I don't remember saying it is a big deal of having 7 digits in the bank. I am OK on my part. You can tell that yourself. I couldn't care less.


    If you did not "talk big", I wouldn't have replied. I am waiting for you next "talk big" and "offensive" reply. I have all the time.
    You win, you the man.
    You can take this thread and keep it too

    Over and out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle
    everybody here knows that having 7 digits in the bank account is no big deal these days.
    That's another very wise statement supporting Propertism - the belief that property prices will always go up in the long term. Simply because paper money will eventually lose all its value.

    This statement will serve as a wake up call for those people who want to "wait" and "wait" when buying properties.

    How long would they like to wait? It's been almost a hundred years since 6 July 1911, when you could buy up the whole Rodyk Street site on which the Watermark is now sitting, at a land cost of around $1 psf, or a 5 digit sum for the entire 90,000 sq ft site.



    But then in those days, having 7 digits in the bank account was really a big deal.

    Look at the lower of the two notices above. Guardian Assurance Company, one of the largest insurance companies in Britain, had a subscribed capital of only 2,000,000 (7 digits).

    Today, Guardian Assurance Company has assets of 22,000,000,000 (11 digits)!

    The modern banking process manufactures currency out of nothing..
    - Lord Josiah Stamp, Former Director of the Bank of England (1937)

    At the end fiat money returns to its inner valuezero.
    - Voltaire (21 November 1694 30 May 1778)

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    Watermark Robertson Quay has a nw hgh of $1,692 psf!


    Watermark Robertson Quay
    Address ...................... psf ............... Area ........ Price ............ Contract Date
    5 Rodyk Street #07-24 .... $1,692 psf .... 904 sqft .... $1,530,000 .... 20 Apr 10

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    Thanks for the info.............but I already dropped it long ago and bought something else better and at better price.

    Probably look to buy another one but, definitely not Watermark at that price......plenty to choose from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttle, 7 May 2010 12.18 pm
    Thanks for the info.............but I already dropped it long ago and bought something else better and at better price.

    Probably look to buy another one but, definitely not Watermark at that price......plenty to choose from.
    Congratulations on your purchase.

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    Do you think Watermark price will go up with the launch of UP @ Robertson?
    Watermark seems to have a better location and its FH.
    Its the cheapest surround the Rodyk area apart from Robertson 100.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    1,099

    Default

    wrong post

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    14

    Default

    Why is it wrong post? Just asking for comment on Watermark since they are on the same road with UP

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