Trevista (D12, 99 years leasehold, NTUC Choice Homes)

[new2mondrian]

Hi xebay11,

Do you have any advices for new entrants like me? I am belonging to mid 30s and the "sandwich" class people. Do I need to pay an atrocious figure for a resales HDB?

Actually HDB figures are not atrocious. Go for the real stats behind the lodged caveats. You can see that it is not impossible to get a 4room at $350k to $450k; a 5-room at $500k plus to $600k even in matured estates such as Holland/Clementi/Queenstown. HDB always gives the best value in terms of rental yield, and there is really limited downside risk and the town council takes care of virtually everything - from estate renewal to cracks and lift upgrading. If you belong to the sandwiched class, can always choose the affordable HDB option. Even if you don't belong to the so-called sandwich class (after all the term "sandwich" is a matter of perspective), HDB living also a good long term option for all families.

My two cents.

[xebay11]

Do not follow the herd mentality.

I strongly agree, that is why I shaking head on $900 to 1200 psf LH purchases.

[DC33_2008]

There are ways to mitigate the risk.

1. Buy within your means

2. Buy FH where possible, if LH they must be very well located and if possible, flipped within 5 years.

3. Buy near MRT or city, so that rental income can protect you in case of failure, if husband and wife work, rental income is triple redundancy.

4. If you feel no appetite for risk, stay put, try not to make any compromises on the points I have outlined.

It is unfortunate that property prices have gone up so much since 1990 but not the average household income of Singaporean. The next generation may want nice private properties but will be beyond their reach unless they work very hard for the bank. So! Maybe some of the investments may be for their children given the Asian Culture.

[xebay11]

Actually HDB figures are not atrocious. Go for the real stats behind the lodged caveats. You can see that it is not impossible to get a 4room at $350k to $450k; a 5-room at $500k plus to $600k even in matured estates such as Holland/Clementi/Queenstown. HDB always gives the best value in terms of rental yield, and there is really limited downside risk and the town council takes care of virtually everything - from estate renewal to cracks and lift upgrading. If you belong to the sandwiched class, can always choose the affordable HDB option. Even if you don't belong to the so-called sandwich class (after all the term "sandwich" is a matter of perspective), HDB living also a good long term option for all families.

My two cents.

I agree most HDBs are better value in rental yield and all other things you mentioned, most people do not see that gap between HDB and Pte property was narrow even just a few months ago, which started the ball rolling in this frenzy, but now the gap has widened again, I guess they are in denial that they may have missed the boat and are now acting irrationally.

[DC33_2008]

Actually HDB figures are not atrocious. Go for the real stats behind the lodged caveats. You can see that it is not impossible to get a 4room at $350k to $450k; a 5-room at $500k plus to $600k even in matured estates such as Holland/Clementi/Queenstown. HDB always gives the best value in terms of rental yield, and there is really limited downside risk and the town council takes care of virtually everything - from estate renewal to cracks and lift upgrading. If you belong to the sandwiched class, can always choose the affordable HDB option. Even if you don't belong to the so-called sandwich class (after all the term "sandwich" is a matter of perspective), HDB living also a good long term option for all families.

My two cents.

The problem is that younger people like to drink coffee in Starbuck and Coffee Bean and not corner coffee shop. Is this about progress of the nation?

[xebay11]

The problem is that younger people like to drink coffee in Starbuck and Coffee Bean and not corner coffee shop. Is this about progress of the nation?

Can they earn enough to sustain this lifestyle? The workforce now has to compete with 3rd world foreigners who will depress salaries.

[new2mondrian]

It is unfortunate that property prices have gone up so much since 1990 but not the average household income of Singaporean. The next generation may want nice private properties but will be beyond their reach unless they work very hard for the bank. So! Maybe some of the investments may be for their children given the Asian Culture.

actually i heard this many times, from the 80s to the 95-96 boom and all the way till todate, probably used to the maxed by rogue agents and developers trying to fuel the "miss the boat" and "buy for your children" mentality. Except for the landed category, Singapore still has tonnes of land available for housing. HDB for one is continually tearing down low density areas and building upwards and denser through its en-bloc process; private condos go through their natural demand-driven enbloc. Hence there is always sufficient land, UNLESS one is talking about real waterfront housing land (I am not talking about the longkangs and canals here which is overused again by the agents) or freehold large landed plots of 5000 sqft and above.

Hence to buy or not to buy is should be a balanced decision based on market fundamentals and personal wealth/income levels.

[DC33_2008]

Can they earn enough to sustain this lifestyle? The workforce now has to compete with 3rd world foreigners who will depress salaries.

That is exactly what happen in the US. They are using future money based on their potential. Life is going to be more and more competitive. People are trying to breakthrough and therefore going for different types of investment. They hope if they can make a couple of millions and retire to drink coffee. Unfortunately, life is not so simple.

[DC33_2008]

actually i heard this many times, from the 80s to the 95-96 boom and all the way till todate, probably used to the maxed by rogue agents and developers trying to fuel the "miss the boat" and "buy for your children" mentality. Except for the landed category, Singapore still has tonnes of land available for housing. HDB for one is continually tearing down low density areas and building upwards and denser through its en-bloc process; private condos go through their natural demand-driven enbloc. Hence there is always sufficient land, UNLESS one is talking about real waterfront housing land (I am not talking about the longkangs and canals here which is overused again by the agents) or freehold large landed plots of 5000 sqft and above.

Hence to buy or not to buy is should be a balanced decision based on market fundamentals and personal wealth/income levels.

Unfortunately, the prices of HDB flat are also pegged to open market prices with a discount. Look at Duxton Plain at Tanjong Pagar.

[coburn]

Sorry to hate to burst your bubble, but with more than $300k in combined income you could have easily mutliplied your money, I shan't teach you too much or else I may lose opps myself, but now I know why most ppl never look towards a certain segment of property market which can generate huge returns and only look at residential. Ha Ha.

I have one maxim in life, it is a sin to sleep in a million dollar property as it could have been invested for better returns, but it is even a bigger sin to sleep on cash.

whatever, it is fine with us...
just different strokes for different folks
as long as at the end, we have sufficient money to retire comfortably, it does not matter if we retire at 40 or 60..

i stress, for us, what is important is the peace of mind and relatively less stressful pace that we are living now

[amk]

I have one maxim in life, it is a sin to sleep in a million dollar property as it could have been invested for better returns, but it is even a bigger sin to sleep on cash.

well to maximize profit is not the purpose of life, for me So I sleep peacefully in a million dollar property.

Seriously, different people have different objective in life. You either use money to buy life, or use life to buy money.

I feel sorry for YewTan. Being in this sandwich situation is really frustrating. Talk is easy, timing the market sometimes is not an option in your life.

[Honesty]

I strongly agree, that is why I shaking head on $900 to 1200 psf LH purchases.

Me too, totally agreed...

At these prices how to get good rental yield?? (How much can you rent)

At these prices how to get capital gain? (Who can afford to buy from you)

At these prices how to service the loan in long run? ($4,000 per month)

With all these reasons and still want to rush in, then GOOD LUCK TO YOU.

[bargain hunter]

teachers and other civil servants are not "common people". they have the ability to leverage up knowing their jobs are safe, thus, there are a lot of such people who make millions in property.

True, but I have seen common people like teachers make millions in property, being first movers.

[xebay11]

well to maximize profit is not the purpose of life, for me So I sleep peacefully in a million dollar property.

Seriously, different people have different objective in life. You either use money to buy life, or use life to buy money.

I feel sorry for YewTan. Being in this sandwich situation is really frustrating. Talk is easy, timing the market sometimes is not an option in your life.

I am not maximising profit, to me property is a hedge against inflation and plan for my children and retirement.

[xebay11]

Me too, totally agreed...

At these prices how to get good rental yield?? (How much can you rent)

At these prices how to get capital gain? (Who can afford to buy from you)

At these prices how to service the loan in long run? ($4,000 per month)

With all these reasons and still want to rush in, then GOOD LUCK TO YOU.

And to think that this is an NTUC project and the Govt is still releasing land with high reserve price, good luck to the next generation. The top are only making money for themselves.

[Douk]

teachers and other civil servants are not "common people". they have the ability to leverage up knowing their jobs are safe, thus, there are a lot of such people who make millions in property.

That is so true. with a secure stream of income, it is a easier decision to commit into property at recession time.

[DC33_2008]

That is so true. with a secure stream of income, it is a easier decision to commit into property at recession time.

The people who join as civil servants and teachers in the recent years are also on contract. No more permanent or pension service anymore, ie. golden rice-bowls. They have also made it more competitive.

[moneyspinner]

I think everyone should be aware that we are in a low interest rate environment. FDs in banks are paying you paltry interest rates of less than 1 pct per annum. So, in terms of yield, so long as you can earn more than 1 pct in terms in terms of rental yield you should be better off. Furthermore, you may stand to gain in terms of capital gain! What other investment can deliver this dual potential benefits especially in the context of land scare Singapore. With the influx of FTs into Singapore and potential of Singapore population to reach 6.5 million, demand for houses is great going forward. And mind you, this fact hasn't taken into account those foreign direct investment into properties here!

[amk]

I am not maximising profit, to me property is a hedge against inflation and plan for my children and retirement.

You are mixing buying for investment and buying for home stay into one property. Good for you. I cannot do this.

For me, first and foremost I must have a property as a comfortable home for me and my family, for my children to grow up with. You should be paying off this property very early in your life.

The investment as hedge against inflation / invest for retirement part is for the 2nd property, not the primary residence. i.e. I do not move my primary residence just to achieve better investments. I knew some one who just sold his primary residence to capitalize on the current uptrend of property price, and moved to rental, to wait for the market correction. I think this is wrong.

For the primary residence, first and foremost it's a home. Therefore it's more of a cost than investment.

Many people, especially the mass market condo buyers, are trying to do the 1st, i.e. get a comfortable home for the family. They are trying to gauge the balance of a comfortable home vs a good investment. Some times you have no choice but to make a compromise. I keep on saying this: this is not as simple as it seems. You think these buyers do not know the price is high now ? They do. They made a decision on their life. If the current price is within their means, I certainly do not discredit them. After all, for own stay, whatever market movement has totally no meaning to them. Just maybe a feel good factor.

[gfoo]

one real scare will be all it takes for the house of cards to start tumbling down

kiasi-ism is a function of kiasu-ism - singaporean mentality that will never change

you will see the mickey mouses and studios dumping first as their loss is not that large quantum wise, but this will affect the 'genuine' stayer-buyers of larger units

that will be the time mentality will revert to psf rather than absolute quantum

[DC33_2008]

You are mixing buying for investment and buying for home stay into one property. Good for you. I cannot do this.

For me, first and foremost I must have a property as a comfortable home for me and my family, for my children to grow up with. You should be paying off this property very early in your life.

The investment as hedge against inflation / invest for retirement part is for the 2nd property, not the primary residence. i.e. I do not move my primary residence just to achieve better investments. I knew some one who just sold his primary residence to capitalize on the current uptrend of property price, and moved to rental, to wait for the market correction. I think this is wrong.

For the primary residence, first and foremost it's a home. Therefore it's more of a cost than investment.

Many people, especially the mass market condo buyers, are trying to do the 1st, i.e. get a comfortable home for the family. They are trying to gauge the balance of a comfortable home vs a good investment. Some times you have no choice but to make a compromise. I keep on saying this: this is not as simple as it seems. You think these buyers do not know the price is high now ? They do. They made a decision on their life. If the current price is within their means, I certainly do not discredit them. After all, for own stay, whatever market movement has totally no meaning to them. Just maybe a feel good factor.

You are absolutely right! Basic needs first, ie. shelter first before moving up the triangle of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Unfortunately, people want everything fast at double or triple quick time. So! We get to see a lot of people wants the cake fast and eat it without considering the repercussion.

[DC33_2008]

You are mixing buying for investment and buying for home stay into one property. Good for you. I cannot do this.

For me, first and foremost I must have a property as a comfortable home for me and my family, for my children to grow up with. You should be paying off this property very early in your life.

The investment as hedge against inflation / invest for retirement part is for the 2nd property, not the primary residence. i.e. I do not move my primary residence just to achieve better investments. I knew some one who just sold his primary residence to capitalize on the current uptrend of property price, and moved to rental, to wait for the market correction. I think this is wrong.

For the primary residence, first and foremost it's a home. Therefore it's more of a cost than investment.

Many people, especially the mass market condo buyers, are trying to do the 1st, i.e. get a comfortable home for the family. They are trying to gauge the balance of a comfortable home vs a good investment. Some times you have no choice but to make a compromise. I keep on saying this: this is not as simple as it seems. You think these buyers do not know the price is high now ? They do. They made a decision on their life. If the current price is within their means, I certainly do not discredit them. After all, for own stay, whatever market movement has totally no meaning to them. Just maybe a feel good factor.

You are absolutely right! Basic needs first, ie. shelter first before moving up the triangle of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. People want everything fast at double or even triple quick time without considering the repercussion of their actions.

[xebay11]

amk, my primary residence is my investment, I started with HDB stayed 8 years, moved to 99 LH stayed 5 years, now moving to FH, next time rent out for rental income and hopefully pass down, same as what my parents have done, my parents are at the renting out their FH property stage, they enjoy good and meaningful retirement, going to the beach in the mornings, cycling, going out for dinners and really enjoying their lives.

[Bishan Kid]

You are mixing buying for investment and buying for home stay into one property. Good for you. I cannot do this.

For me, first and foremost I must have a property as a comfortable home for me and my family, for my children to grow up with. You should be paying off this property very early in your life.

The investment as hedge against inflation / invest for retirement part is for the 2nd property, not the primary residence. i.e. I do not move my primary residence just to achieve better investments. I knew some one who just sold his primary residence to capitalize on the current uptrend of property price, and moved to rental, to wait for the market correction. I think this is wrong.

For the primary residence, first and foremost it's a home. Therefore it's more of a cost than investment.

Many people, especially the mass market condo buyers, are trying to do the 1st, i.e. get a comfortable home for the family. They are trying to gauge the balance of a comfortable home vs a good investment. Some times you have no choice but to make a compromise. I keep on saying this: this is not as simple as it seems. You think these buyers do not know the price is high now ? They do. They made a decision on their life. If the current price is within their means, I certainly do not discredit them. After all, for own stay, whatever market movement has totally no meaning to them. Just maybe a feel good factor.

Your thoughts reminded me of an experienced trader in Chicago board of trade which I spoken to many years ago.

Within his capacity, he will speculate anything that moves to make money except the home that shelters his family.

Maybe the philosophy of life varies with individuals.

[DC33_2008]

amk, my primary residence is my investment, I started with HDB stayed 8 years, moved to 99 LH stayed 5 years, now moving to FH, next time rent out for rental income and hopefully pass down, same as what my parents have done, my parents are at the renting out their FH property stage, they enjoy good and meaningful retirement, going to the beach in the mornings, cycling, going out for dinners and really enjoying their lives.

It is quite a good plan. I have started similar planning 16 years ago and managed to have a few fully paid-up freehold properties. I have used rental income to pay for the housing loan. Just a word of caution, rental yield may not be as good as 16 years ago. So, it may take a bit longer. On the other hand, interest was a lot higher then. I am also following my parents footstep who have private property which has increased by more than 150 folds. However, this may not happen at such quantum now. Location is still very important. Now, I see MRT stn is another important factor to consider if one is looking at rental or even for own-stay. Hence, I have moved to leasehold property. It is no harm to leverage on the bank for loan if it is a good investment and must have the holding power no matter what. It must not affect the family life-style.

[jitkiat]

Quote from H88

29 Aug 2009

7 flr, 689 sqft 1+1BR - around $704k or $1,021 psf
24 flr, 926 sqft 2BR - around $925k or $998 psf
15 flr, 1,012 sqft 2+1BR - around $1.007m or $995 psf
30 flr, 1,270 sqft 3BR - around $1.232m or $1,030 psf
27 flr, 1,733 sqft 4BR - around $1.468m or $847 psf

[wreckwrx]

amk, my primary residence is my investment, I started with HDB stayed 8 years, moved to 99 LH stayed 5 years, now moving to FH, next time rent out for rental income and hopefully pass down, same as what my parents have done, my parents are at the renting out their FH property stage, they enjoy good and meaningful retirement, going to the beach in the mornings, cycling, going out for dinners and really enjoying their lives.

Congratulations on making the right decision at each stage of your journey.

I have known people that got stuck at their very 1st or 2nd move and never recovered since.... i m sure you heard of horror stories like people paying $600k for a "Edge-Dee-Bee" flat in Tampines during those pre-97 days or buying units directly from a certain "Eff-Yee-Oh" developer at prices that remain stagnated even through the boom cycles where everyone else was making a killing....

[wreckwrx]

It is quite a good plan. I have started similar planning 16 years ago and managed to have a few fully paid-up freehold properties. I have used rental income to pay for the housing loan. Just a word of caution, rental yield may not be as good as 16 years ago. So, it may take a bit longer. On the other hand, interest was a lot higher then. I am also following my parents footstep who have private property which has increased by more than 150 folds. However, this may not happen at such quantum now. Location is still very important. Now, I see MRT stn is another important factor to consider if one is looking at rental or even for own-stay. Hence, I have moved to leasehold property. It is no harm to leverage on the bank for loan if it is a good investment and must have the holding power no matter what. It must not affect the family life-style.

Totally agreed that one should not just buy blindly and should work out their sums very carefully.....

[Property_Owner]

soon u see the flippers will adv in papers

[jitkiat]

soon u see the flippers will adv in papers

If Optima flippers are unsuccessful @ 950psf ... I wonder what is the chance of selling at 1,100psf for Trevista when they are up against flippers at The Arte / Vista Residences.