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Thread: Asking Price Above bank valuation?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin002
    This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

    When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.
    Ha ha... actually these are people you should keep in close contact with.

    from my experience, when they start to buy, it is time to offload...

    Just to share with you... previously i had a unit at this crappy project, more than 2 km from the main road. i paid slightly over 1 mio for it...

    The rental yield was damn good though... i was clocking >10% p.a. A good friend of my was telling it that the market is flat... the development is so far away...blah blah blah.... leasehold property is for fools.. and whatever reason he can think off.

    18 months into ownership, after collection 16k rental per month! The same friend decided that market was too good for him to sit outside any longer... he made an offer for a unit in the same development... at the same time i let go of my unit at more than twice my purchase price...

    He bought his, i sold mine.

    since then, the market hasn't seen daylight.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin002
    I suggest that you approach a loan agent which has contact from many banks. Unless you can get a very good loan arrangment from a banker you know.

    Get a tentative loan approval (70%, 80% or 90%) with the targeted few property that you have in mind. Once you have the unit number, get the bank/agent to do an immediate valuation. Yes, the valuation may be lower, but chances of the bank to match the valuation are still possible unless the asking price from seller is too drastic. Alternatively, to ask the seller to match or lower the asking price as the bank cannot match. If the seller is desperate, they may match otherwise, it is better to move on. The banks must have a good reason not to match (take note of the key word, "banks" not one but all).
    yep... agree...

    The best way to move forward is this:-

    1) call a bank, give them your financial status, and your income.
    2) ask from them, how much can the bank support in loan.
    3) ask for a written in principle approval.

    With this, you can then know a budget that you can work with.

    next question is, select properties that is within your budget. The above valuation issue is only a matter of how much cash you need to cough out at the onset. In theory it shouldn't affect your decision that much, honestly.

    Also, bear in mind, once you have an OTP at hand, banks quite a lot of time can suddenly match the valuation. But for prudent sake, best have a bit of margin to play with.

    In you know any valuer from any big houses, you can ask them to do valuation for you as well. Banks will accept that, and they even pay up to $750 for it. if the valuer are your friends... a bit easier to convince.

  3. #33
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    where to check the build ratio?

    what is the present build ratio requirement?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin002
    This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

    When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.
    Well said, that why you got your southbank so cheap

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acer
    where to check the build ratio?

    what is the present build ratio requirement?
    URA decides on the build ratio. They would be able to give you that information.

    The BR for each area is different. And the URA Master Plan changes every 5 years, so there is no way to know for sure.

    what we can do is to do an educated guess. for example, the next change in master plan is at 2012 or 2013. and since the city area is always growing, a lot of people expects the BR for the novena area to be increase tremedously, since Newton area has already been increased 5 years ago. That is why novena area has been snapped up. Especially the old developments. UOL also has a lot of projects in Newton / novena area. Internal sources tells me that they think that is the next area of growth and may become the next "city" area. They want to be in there early, and be known as the city shaper...

    Of course, these are hearsays, and we can only try to make an educated guess

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin002
    This statement is only true to the neighbour projects that are sold to HDB upgraders. You have to take note that certain projects in prime area are moving fast.

    When I tell people to buy in Dec to Mar, people say that price will drop further. Now I tell people to choose carefully but can still buy, people tell me that the fundamentals are not there and the market will come down in later. Mark my words, unless there is another major unforeseen event happening, the end 2009 and coming 2010 will only be better. If not, it will also maintain current pricing by moving sideward rather than downwards.
    absolutely true. market is definitely looking up. I just turned down a cheque from a very keen buyer, who is willing to top up $100k above bank valuation. there is still a lot of liquidity out there.

  7. #37
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    My offer was turned down due to someone offered 3K more. However , seller come back to me 1 week later due to his buyer loan rejected by bank , so his cheque bounch.


    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    absolutely true. market is definitely looking up. I just turned down a cheque from a very keen buyer, who is willing to top up $100k above bank valuation. there is still a lot of liquidity out there.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 爱屋及乌
    My offer was turned down due to someone offered 3K more. However , seller come back to me 1 week later due to his buyer loan rejected by bank , so his cheque bounch.
    And u got your unit ?

    YFG

  9. #39
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    Assuming your facts are right and such an event actually happened;
    its shocking that the agent actually agreed to pay the difference in selling price and your offered price, and even more surprising (the agent must be blindingly stupid!!), you actually managed to get even any form of compensation!!!

    Given you guys decided to take action, the burden of proof basically will lie with you guys. First, there is a need to establish contract, if not present a duty, either duty of care or fiduciary duty (statutory obligations are out of the window in this instance).

    Even if you guys get through the first stage (which in itself is not all always that direct, unless he has an exclusive and even then, its arguable that it will at best be standard DoC). The next thing is to prove damages caused. Obviously, the seller will purport for the formulation you suggest... but it is also possible to look at it another way. As part of his duty, he has exercise due care and professional assessment that this is not the in the best interest of client to consider such offer (assuming you managed to put forwad DoC or FD above). English case law is persuasive but not binding. This said, there are a number of instances where it has been ruled that agents (property) may not necessary penalised if they have proven/shown to exercise discretion consistent of the level of care as reasonably to be assumed.

    For your case, you are not even privy to that contractual (if any) or agency relationship. You can only at best, try to enforce some right via the Third Parties Act... and even so, the agent's obligation to you in respect of that applicable will be extremely limited !!

    I can understand why the agent may settle out of court for the case with teh seller. As for paying you, the agent must be a real idoit!




    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    It depends, there was once i made an offer. The agent signed and indicated that the owner rejected my offer.

    A couple of months later, the unit was sold for less then the price i offered. i got in touch with the owner, we sue the agent.

    anyway, it was settled out of court. Basically the agent had to pay the owner the difference in the selling price and my offered price.

    i was given some compensation too, coz the selling price and the market price was a big margin.

    So, think again, if one is an agent and decides to sign on it.

    Anyways, there are ways to check if it is the owner or not. Telephone number, NRIC photocopy.. etc..etc...

    what i want to establish is that the owner saw my offer and decide to reject, and not because the agent didn't present my offer... we all know agents with exclusive can something get greedy!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    yep... agree...

    The best way to move forward is this:-

    1) call a bank, give them your financial status, and your income.
    2) ask from them, how much can the bank support in loan.
    3) ask for a written in principle approval.

    With this, you can then know a budget that you can work with.

    next question is, select properties that is within your budget. The above valuation issue is only a matter of how much cash you need to cough out at the onset. In theory it shouldn't affect your decision that much, honestly.

    Also, bear in mind, once you have an OTP at hand, banks quite a lot of time can suddenly match the valuation. But for prudent sake, best have a bit of margin to play with.

    In you know any valuer from any big houses, you can ask them to do valuation for you as well. Banks will accept that, and they even pay up to $750 for it. if the valuer are your friends... a bit easier to convince.
    Hi Pweesng, foremost, I enjoy reading your article so far. But I beg to differ on the above in bold.

    Bank ONLY accept certify valuer that are on panel.

    No matter what, Bank still do their own valution for secure loan, if you happen to have 1 or 10 reports, they are just reference.

    If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

    1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
    2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
    3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

    The above are applicable to local bank practices only.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by apple3
    Hi Pweesng, foremost, I enjoy reading your article so far. But I beg to differ on the above in bold.

    Bank ONLY accept certify valuer that are on panel.

    No matter what, Bank still do their own valution for secure loan, if you happen to have 1 or 10 reports, they are just reference.

    If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

    1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
    2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
    3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

    The above are applicable to local bank practices only.
    If you use a valuer not from the bank, they have the riight t rejext your report. Banks use 3 panel of valuers, average out of use the highest valuation and factor in some other issues which i think so, then issue out the loan. If everyone starts to be friend valuers and getting their own valuations, you will see a bubble blust again soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    If you use a valuer not from the bank, they have the riight t rejext your report. Banks use 3 panel of valuers, average out of use the highest valuation and factor in some other issues which i think so, then issue out the loan. If everyone starts to be friend valuers and getting their own valuations, you will see a bubble blust again soon.
    Actually not really.

    First of all, as long as the valuer is in the panel, the bank cannto reject.

    Secondly, the bank does not do a full valuation. For loan purpose, they only do desktop valuation.

    Trust me on this, i used to do this for a living in my younger days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Given you guys decided to take action, the burden of proof basically will lie with you guys. First, there is a need to establish contract, if not present a duty, either duty of care or fiduciary duty (statutory obligations are out of the window in this instance).

    I can understand why the agent may settle out of court for the case with teh seller. As for paying you, the agent must be a real idoit!

    Well, first of all, it wasn't difficult to proof. Given that the signature on the acknowledgement letter is forged.

    There are other issues as to why i was given a compensation. However, i have signed a NDA in settlement of the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by apple3
    If you happen to know a valuer that are on panel and happen to be the one doing valuation for the property that you are pledging and you are using him to convincing the bank mgr, 3 things may happen;

    1. The staff will act blur and take it as never hear before.
    2. The staff will be a fool and in deep shit for entertaining this instance.
    3. Upon reporting, the loan facility will be terminated immediately pending reviews & investigation.

    The above are applicable to local bank practices only.
    So what happen... If for examply i work in a property developer company professionally. And part of my work, i work with property valuers on a dialy basis... these people are all my friends...

    and so happen they are appointed to do a valuation on a property i am purchasing... the 3 points above applies too?

    I can tell you for sure.. .As long as your valuation report is from a reputable house that is on the panel of the bank (and almost all big houses are). They will have no reason to reject your valuation report, as long as it is within 30 to 60 days of issue.

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    Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKSG
    And u got your unit ?

    YFG

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    Quote Originally Posted by 爱屋及乌
    Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.
    What you mean?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 爱屋及乌
    Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.
    yes good for you, dun be so impulsive and let the seller extort from you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 爱屋及乌
    Not yet , because I realized that the buyer and I had pushed the price up during the previous negotiation. I will only consider if the seller willing to accept my original offer.
    Ya good to know that you are the only buyer left. Best is that you give a 1% cheque for the option and ask the ower if they want to accept, otherwise, you will go for another property. Don't waste your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    So what happen... If for examply i work in a property developer company professionally. And part of my work, i work with property valuers on a dialy basis... these people are all my friends...

    and so happen they are appointed to do a valuation on a property i am purchasing... the 3 points above applies too?

    I can tell you for sure.. .As long as your valuation report is from a reputable house that is on the panel of the bank (and almost all big houses are). They will have no reason to reject your valuation report, as long as it is within 30 to 60 days of issue.
    Do you know how many SISV certified valuers out there in the market?
    And how many valuation houses out there in the market?
    Lastly, how many properties in Singapore?

    Do you know what are the chances like in a case where you happen to see a property AND the person the bank call up from panel to conduct the valuation is your friend and you happen to know him? It is very slim pal, unless on you instruct your friend-valuer to do so.

    And back to the onus, yes, the bank have no reason to reject the panel report. BUT if the loaner is KNOWN to be a friend or related to the valuer, the report MUST NOT be use. I repeat, clear conflict of interest, on policy, must not be use. This is a secure loan, if default occur and reprocession fail with such arrangement (friend-valuer) on the record, the person that approve the loan will be taken to task.

    The reason why I have been hugging on this issue is while you could be right on surface for some issues, you could indirectly get some forumer into trouble or unnecc inconveniences if they heed your advise to get friend-valuer to approach bank in a round the bush manner. Do you think we are so dumb not knowing all the private undertable arrangement?

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    And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

    Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

    U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

    YFG

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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSG
    And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

    Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

    U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

    YFG
    There are certainly some flexiblity here. But I guess one have to be able to get hold of the valuer the bank has called in the first place. Follow by if the bank mgr got the balls to ask for a revise as a friend favor.

    I do agree that fictional increase will get the valuer strike off the panel. Worse if there are personal gain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    Well, first of all, it wasn't difficult to proof. Given that the signature on the acknowledgement letter is forged.

    There are other issues as to why i was given a compensation. However, i have signed a NDA in settlement of the issue.
    I think we are just talking about different things. I am specific about my reference - as the point of law in awarding damage, not the need to proof if a forgery was indeed done.

    To claim damages, FIRST you must prove or establish there is a contract or duty being breached. If the agent do not have a written contractual arrangement or any agency agreement in place, you then have to prove a duty was breached. Again, I am not referring to the need to prove forgery. The principles of law is a very logical process and it has nothing to do if such a forgery is in place. In any case, if it was indeed a material case of forgery, the case would have taken up by AG (criminal breach of trust) instead.

    This is standard (which I cannot understand why the confusion by some between the legal obligation of one and moral wrong) - to claim damage, you have to first demonstrate relationship, basis, breach and damages/recourse.

    I am talking about first establish your claim of the relationship, not the forgery part. For what its worth, the forgery part would be the last of the legal analysis, if you get the drift. Its damages that matter, not the causal act that lead to this. This is crystal clear and evident in all judgements, as far as Singapore courts are concerned.

    Thats why I am completely shocked what an idoit that agent could have been in this assumed dealing with you. Signing an NDA, I see no reason why you have to limit your rights and increase your obligation on the same.

    Anyway, glad you met such an idoit agent.

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSG
    And there is a limit how much valuer can do ...

    Add a few percentage points to the valuation---> can ...

    U want your friend to add 15% to your property ... think he will not be your friend for long ... haha!

    YFG
    Maybe can for her. You never know. How many times she can buy and sell? Guess 2? or 3? That's why bank may find it ok to ........ For me? pai seh....I'm scare loh....

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    i never talk about asking valuers to match the value of the property 15% to 20% ah...

    In any case, unless it is one of those black and white houses that is so rare to come by, under today's conditions, no one in the right mind would purchase a unit that is valued 15% below the market price.

    most of the cases i come across, the valuation is just short of abit, and the buyer is limited in terms of cash, hence need someone to match the valuation.

    i don't have to argue to make anyone believe me. Those who have done it before, knows how this can be done

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    Legally, speaking, the agent don't have to pay me a single cent. but if i were to take this case up to the court, yes, i may not win, but the agent would not be walking away from the court house with deals lining up, waiting for him to sell. What does it cost me? $50k or $60k? its not a big sum, i will burn it just to get him down for the rest of his career.

    Sometimes, whether the agent would agree to resolve the matter privately, also depends on the circumstance he or she is under. Look at the war, not the battle.

    To me, to settle it, at least he still got some brains... to fight it, he would be a complete idiot. Either way, he is going to lose, its a matter of now, or future business.

    Anyway, this is talking about a civil suit. There is nothing criminal involve. If i can establish that i lose money becase of what he did previously, there is a case, as to how much i will get in award, or whether i woudl even win the case, it is not up to you or me.

    But if his name gets flashed across the newspaper, he is definitely losing in someways.




    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    I think we are just talking about different things. I am specific about my reference - as the point of law in awarding damage, not the need to proof if a forgery was indeed done.

    To claim damages, FIRST you must prove or establish there is a contract or duty being breached. If the agent do not have a written contractual arrangement or any agency agreement in place, you then have to prove a duty was breached. Again, I am not referring to the need to prove forgery. The principles of law is a very logical process and it has nothing to do if such a forgery is in place. In any case, if it was indeed a material case of forgery, the case would have taken up by AG (criminal breach of trust) instead.

    This is standard (which I cannot understand why the confusion by some between the legal obligation of one and moral wrong) - to claim damage, you have to first demonstrate relationship, basis, breach and damages/recourse.

    I am talking about first establish your claim of the relationship, not the forgery part. For what its worth, the forgery part would be the last of the legal analysis, if you get the drift. Its damages that matter, not the causal act that lead to this. This is crystal clear and evident in all judgements, as far as Singapore courts are concerned.

    Thats why I am completely shocked what an idoit that agent could have been in this assumed dealing with you. Signing an NDA, I see no reason why you have to limit your rights and increase your obligation on the same.

    Anyway, glad you met such an idoit agent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    Legally, speaking, the agent don't have to pay me a single cent. but if i were to take this case up to the court, yes, i may not win, but the agent would not be walking away from the court house with deals lining up, waiting for him to sell. What does it cost me? $50k or $60k? its not a big sum, i will burn it just to get him down for the rest of his career.

    Sometimes, whether the agent would agree to resolve the matter privately, also depends on the circumstance he or she is under. Look at the war, not the battle.

    To me, to settle it, at least he still got some brains... to fight it, he would be a complete idiot. Either way, he is going to lose, its a matter of now, or future business.

    Anyway, this is talking about a civil suit. There is nothing criminal involve. If i can establish that i lose money becase of what he did previously, there is a case, as to how much i will get in award, or whether i woudl even win the case, it is not up to you or me.

    But if his name gets flashed across the newspaper, he is definitely losing in someways.
    Some more than 10 years ago Philip Yeo publicly named government scholars whom broke their bond in order to shame them as well; part of the intent was naturally to create a personal diaster for these scholars. There was also 2 separate instances of agents trying to get off multiple tenants with their deposits, on pseudo leases, which the owner was never aware of. Anyone remembered any of their names without having to search the news archives ??

    More often than not, forummers like to indulge in the anonymity of internet and start to sprout interesting scenarios, arguments and in some instances, rather shaky and weak legal arguments fundamentally flawed.
    I appreciate there are certain individuals sometimes have "personal mandates" to put up a response for personal gratification (particularly behind the veil of anonymity over the internet, which is a convenient approach), notwithstanding however unsubstantiated, supported or unthought of. Human minds are often far too forgetful to remember ill-publicity. The basis of leveraging against another individual in that a insignificant sum of money can get someone down the rest of his career; by way of public circulation does not convince me nor hold any water on its own.

    I am precise and specific in my views. My primary goal was really to share my experiences and expertise with my views on the legal basis of a certain supposedly scenario and what appears to be a clear "overhand" in respect of the said dispute. As a matter of factly, the litigation cost for such cases are certainly not going to be in the range you have suggested. I am not sure how certain forummers can sprout such number which seems to be clearly ignorant to the bindingly obvious. As to the impact of future business, I clearly cannot see how it will impact on the same, given it is likely only parties privy to such incidents will be made awared of.

    *I learned from some forrumers about this phrase - "talk is cheap", and I would say this is one instance which I certainly is learning how to apply on.

    Anyway, I rest my case. I have come across way too many such individuals which tries to convince the uninformed; putting forward propositions base on shockingly illogical, ungrounded and unfounded theories or considerations (I refer to the legal basis of consideration). I do not expect everyone in the forum to be a particularly trained in legal arguments but it would be decent to ask individuals to be less embarassed, if it ok to say so.

    It is not my intention to embarass anyone or to be offending but I ask participants herein to put up some decency and perhaps respect for yourself ; and arguments put forward to be minimally substantiated, not necessarily with the force of the law, but with basic logic.

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    I also find the incident hard to believe, but since I am not sure whether legally this can be push to the extreme, I can only give the benefit of doubt. Thanks for clearly articulating your views. Your input is much appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Some more than 10 years ago Philip Yeo publicly named government scholars whom broke their bond in order to shame them as well; part of the intent was naturally to create a personal diaster for these scholars. There was also 2 separate instances of agents trying to get off multiple tenants with their deposits, on pseudo leases, which the owner was never aware of. Anyone remembered any of their names without having to search the news archives ??

    More often than not, forummers like to indulge in the anonymity of internet and start to sprout interesting scenarios, arguments and in some instances, rather shaky and weak legal arguments fundamentally flawed.
    I appreciate there are certain individuals sometimes have "personal mandates" to put up a response for personal gratification (particularly behind the veil of anonymity over the internet, which is a convenient approach), notwithstanding however unsubstantiated, supported or unthought of. Human minds are often far too forgetful to remember ill-publicity. The basis of leveraging against another individual in that a insignificant sum of money can get someone down the rest of his career; by way of public circulation does not convince me nor hold any water on its own.

    I am precise and specific in my views. My primary goal was really to share my experiences and expertise with my views on the legal basis of a certain supposedly scenario and what appears to be a clear "overhand" in respect of the said dispute. As a matter of factly, the litigation cost for such cases are certainly not going to be in the range you have suggested. I am not sure how certain forummers can sprout such number which seems to be clearly ignorant to the bindingly obvious. As to the impact of future business, I clearly cannot see how it will impact on the same, given it is likely only parties privy to such incidents will be made awared of.

    *I learned from some forrumers about this phrase - "talk is cheap", and I would say this is one instance which I certainly is learning how to apply on.

    Anyway, I rest my case. I have come across way too many such individuals which tries to convince the uninformed; putting forward propositions base on shockingly illogical, ungrounded and unfounded theories or considerations (I refer to the legal basis of consideration). I do not expect everyone in the forum to be a particularly trained in legal arguments but it would be decent to ask individuals to be less embarassed, if it ok to say so.

    It is not my intention to embarass anyone or to be offending but I ask participants herein to put up some decency and perhaps respect for yourself ; and arguments put forward to be minimally substantiated, not necessarily with the force of the law, but with basic logic.

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    You are welcome.

  29. #59
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    May 2009
    Posts
    130

    Default

    Fine with me, whether you believe or not.

    I also do not need to convince you that the incident really happen.

    In any case, there isn't anything for me to benefit from it.

    If you are willing to put a wager and prove me wrong, then let's talk. anonmity or not, I always prefer to put dough where my fingers are.

  30. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    698

    Default

    hi, need some advice.

    which bank gives the highest valuation nowadays? maybank?

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