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Thread: Property market sentiments?

  1. #451
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    tell me when you are lying in your hospital bed and taking your last few breaths. i will be kind and burn you some joss papers to see that you have a comfortable afterlife.


    Quote Originally Posted by dove
    I suggest u can convert half yr funds to joss paper

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    This is already happening. The less well-offs are selling off better-located HDBs to move to Sengkang & Punggol. The rich with children entering primary schools will move to Bukit Timah near top primary schools. DBSS HDBs cater only for high-income young couples.
    Punggol is a good move. In time to come (10 yrs and not 1 yr), Punggol prices would move up significantly.
    Top primary school, haiz. Parents and children are really poor things.

  3. #453
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    hi gfoo,. pls share your view on D15 and newton/orchard? especially D15. thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Lol. actually i did tat for D15 and newton/orchard.

    mbay had no lesser than 3 websites, almost 150 press releases, 6 PDF files - all available for public download. That and the huge construction sites and worker hostels all around. Kinda hits you in the face the potential of this place once the construction is completed. Well, less than 1 year to go to find out whether i'm right or wrong.

    it's a very very different kind of living here. We're all used to the gated communities of the traditional condo with a guard or two and a wall surrounding the development, enveloping all the facilities inside. Here, it's almost as if the entire 'hinterland' surrounding the development are the facilities. There's a Harry's, Da Paolos, Raffles Bar, Irish pub, Coffee Bean etc etc built on the condo grounds. but add a 20m radius underground and you have access to the retaillink shoppes. And once mbfc is completed, that 20m radius gives access to Singapore's answer to central park, an MRT, and 3 basements of shopping. Add another 100m in radius and i have a 5min walk to the IR and the gardens. Then you have collyer quay, etc etc - the list is rather long. all i need now is public kayaking by the bay and the right to drive my golf buggy* all the way to mgcc & i can sell my country club membership liao.

    so at the price i bought this place at, i thought then that it was quite a fair price, and it'll be kinda fun living here once everything is built up. i'm quite a sucker for cheap thrills


    *it's either a golf buggy, or when they legalize segways on pedestrian walks. There's one cheap made-in-china copy that the cops were using during the beijing olympics - i want one of those.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by wqmai
    Punggol is a good move. In time to come (10 yrs and not 1 yr), Punggol prices would move up significantly.
    Top primary school, haiz. Parents and children are really poor things.
    really cant see any value in the northeast area. care to share why punggol price will move up ?

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douk
    really cant see any value in the northeast area. care to share why punggol price will move up ?
    Well, almost 3/4 of BTO flats are in punggol. Once population is build up, shopping mall etc is bound to come. The punggol water-way is also under construction.
    If you live near the punggol MRT, getting to Dobby Ghuat is actually much nearer by MRT than other places such as Jurong and Tampines. If you are driving, you can go by CTE to town, Jalan Kayu is nearby for late night supper. Going by upper serangoon rd can lead you to serangon garden for makan, etc.
    By the way, I am comparing it towards places other than central area, city fringe or east coast.
    I see value in Punggol but does not mean that the price will match those in central, city fringe or east coast.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douk
    hi gfoo,. pls share your view on D15 and newton/orchard? especially D15. thanks.
    I've always maintained that i liked One Amber esp when the prices in Q1-Q2 averaged about $850-$950psf. Close to future MRT, shopping malls, a gentrified estate that is historically the more well-to-do locality of Singapore, fresher air, a suburban feel yet truly minutes to the city center - and great sea,bay,city views as well (not to mention FH).

    D15 (East Coast Road and before, NOT Telok Kurau and those 'tear down 2 semi-ds and build a 50 unit apartment' types) has a unique blend of culture, food, history and prestige that i like a lot. While condo prices there have gone up quite a bit, landed prices there are still somewhat sane, esp in the siglap area. There are some gems around.

    Silversea, Seaview and Esta are developments that have too many density negatives i don't wanna even think about. Ola (what's the price now?) at $900psf in Q1 holds a lot of promise - super low plot ratio vs surroundings, great location, and very very wide expanse of water features and swimming pools.

    But anything more than $1000-$1100psf for D15 is expensive.

    For newton/buckley/evelyn, that window of opportunity where gems were selling 30% less than surrounding areas is no more. e.g. Buckley Residences was offered to me at $7XXpsf for FH penthouse early this year.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by wqmai
    Well, almost 3/4 of BTO flats are in punggol. Once population is build up, shopping mall etc is bound to come. The punggol water-way is also under construction.
    If you live near the punggol MRT, getting to Dobby Ghuat is actually much nearer by MRT than other places such as Jurong and Tampines. If you are driving, you can go by CTE to town, Jalan Kayu is nearby for late night supper. Going by upper serangoon rd can lead you to serangon garden for makan, etc.
    By the way, I am comparing it towards places other than central area, city fringe or east coast.
    I see value in Punggol but does not mean that the price will match those in central, city fringe or east coast.
    Punggol does have enormous potential, and is one of the 2 locations (the other is sembawang) that i predict will emerge an upper-class suburban enclave. But this will not be where current flats and BTOs built today are. Singaporeans are buying into some of the worst parts of Punggol's potential today. The high potential areas will be coastal, and on coney island - but that is at least a decade or more away.

    Stand in the middle of the main punggol road. You will feel a little claustrophobic, left and right are some of the densest flats around. I predict that while more population means a little more vibrancy, this area will mature with less dignity than what we're used to historically. There will be pockets of 'slums' simply due to the density.

    HDB flats today are a hit n miss in terms of design which affects how you live. HDB tries to follow modern trends like full length windows and such, but because each project is so dense, full length windows and other 'condo-like' design elements are in fact detrimental to privacy and living. I've visited those bunch of flats on top of Buangkok MRT - lauded for design excellence, and looks from afar like a condo, not to mention great convenience. But the design is such where the whole world can look into every one of your rooms - and there are so many undesirable miscreants roaming about with their nonsense due to the 24/7 kopitiams.

    As for the waterways, building a glorified longkang may bluff the uninformed initially, but over time, it will be seen as what it is.

  8. #458
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    To qualify my statement above before i get flamed, i have nothing against HDB. heck my first home after ROM was in marine parade. HDB flats are great living, convenient, and are of rather good quality for the price you pay for it.

    The only issue i have with HDB estates are the huge societal divides resulting in miscreants. If everyone in an estate had more or less tolerable differences in terms of economic status, i honestly think it will revert back to the estates of old where inclusiveness, openess, and close neighbourly relations was the rule of the day.

    Today, you have druggies sitting in playgrounds at night, numerous robberies especially in dire economic times, drive a car better than a cerato and sure kena scratch, break-ins, and idiots that pee and litter all over the place. There is this sense of insecurity in HDB estates today. And honestly, as long as the economic divide remains large, there ain't nothing HDB or town councils can do about it.

    Condo living affords a sense of community far far more than HDB estates do. All the kids play and grow up together - no matter how exclusive or mass market that condo is. The fathers in the condo all try to exhi-borat and yaya in the management committee; the stay home mums come up with spa clubs and other similar akua shit. Why? because the economic and social strata of families there are somewhat similar, and there is a strong sense of security in gated communities.

    The only similarity condos share with HDB is that somehow, each always has that crazy cat lady that feeds the cats every night and has somehow made it a mission in life to propagate the feline species.

  9. #459
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    hi gfoo .... interesting analysis on D15.
    Btw about your write-up on HDB & the 'longkang' in Punggol ... any difference man-made canal vs. those you see in some central areas (e.g. the 'river' that runs near OSM)??
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    As for the waterways, building a glorified longkang may bluff the uninformed initially, but over time, it will be seen as what it is.

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo

    The only similarity condos share with HDB is that somehow, each always has that crazy cat lady that feeds the cats every night and has somehow made it a mission in life to propagate the feline species.
    not true lah, cat ladies feed stray cats and will often bring them to be neutered. As they r territorial these neutered cats will prevent other stays from venturing into their turf hence controlling the stray population.. cats gd, help keep away roaches and other pest insects ~

  11. #461
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    I agree with gfoo. there is absolutely no such thing as posh AND convenient. That's one pie you can't have and eat.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerful
    hi gfoo .... interesting analysis on D15.
    Btw about your write-up on HDB & the 'longkang' in Punggol ... any difference man-made canal vs. those you see in some central areas (e.g. the 'river' that runs near OSM)??
    i think punggol's longkang will be the best designed and possibly a true waterway. But its still a longkong - OSM's and anything connected to the kallang watershed are worse: smelly polluted longkangs.

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTan
    i think priveldge banking is private banking. only saw 1 such cheque.

    Even better, I chased a cheque with no name and no company, but the signatory is among singapore forbes top 20 richest.
    Oh.. didn't know that preveliege refers to private banking.. thought previlege is like Citigold, Dbs treasures only, standchart priority type..

    Private banking is Citigold pte banking, UBS, Credit Suisse, StandardChartere Private Banking, DBS Private Banking..


    wow.. did you photocopy and paste on wall?! Not everytime can see signature of Forbes TOP 20!
    maybe next time can sign for him too..keke
    Last edited by focus; 21-06-09 at 16:54.

  14. #464
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    Privilege banking is not private banking, 2 v different tiers. Many prefer chequebooks that are nondescript as it's bad taste to flaunt -uob for example differentiates by. Chqbk by account type eg High-Yield etc

  15. #465
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    yeah, privilege is S$200k to dunno how much and private is US$2m and above. 2 big different tiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Privilege banking is not private banking, 2 v different tiers. Many prefer chequebooks that are nondescript as it's bad taste to flaunt -uob for example differentiates by. Chqbk by account type eg High-Yield etc

  16. #466
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    kallang waterway is a river, not a longkang. The one in front of dakota residence is mre like a longkang.
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    i think punggol's longkang will be the best designed and possibly a true waterway. But its still a longkong - OSM's and anything connected to the kallang watershed are worse: smelly polluted longkangs.

  17. #467
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    uob cards do nt have that many privileges as i thot it to have. The signature card i applied is said to offer cmplimentary parking at raffles city but each time i go there, they tell me quota up. Not many tie ups with food outlets etc n mostly on useless spa n facial etc that i dont use. I thk ocbc cards are a lot mre cnsumer friendly
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Privilege banking is not private banking, 2 v different tiers. Many prefer chequebooks that are nondescript as it's bad taste to flaunt -uob for example differentiates by. Chqbk by account type eg High-Yield etc

  18. #468
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    cAn't comment here, i dun have any credit cards - i use a single debit card, no privileges one

  19. #469
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    sometimes good to pay by credit to have record of spending and also when making advance payments for something. i once paid for some bridal service using credit card and the company closed shop after collecting money from customers. i wrote in and told the credit card company goods not delivered so i did not have to pay that portion of my credit card bill. thus it acts as a safeguard too....

    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    cAn't comment here, i dun have any credit cards - i use a single debit card, no privileges one

  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by wqmai
    Well, almost 3/4 of BTO flats are in punggol. Once population is build up, shopping mall etc is bound to come. The punggol water-way is also under construction.
    If you live near the punggol MRT, getting to Dobby Ghuat is actually much nearer by MRT than other places such as Jurong and Tampines. If you are driving, you can go by CTE to town, Jalan Kayu is nearby for late night supper. Going by upper serangoon rd can lead you to serangon garden for makan, etc.
    By the way, I am comparing it towards places other than central area, city fringe or east coast.
    I see value in Punggol but does not mean that the price will match those in central, city fringe or east coast.
    thanks. got your point. i never understand why north east area like hougang or even kovan can fetch good price. maybe this is the reason..

  21. #471
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    haha, this is exaggerated though.

    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    To qualify my statement above before i get flamed, i have nothing against HDB. heck my first home after ROM was in marine parade. HDB flats are great living, convenient, and are of rather good quality for the price you pay for it.

    The only issue i have with HDB estates are the huge societal divides resulting in miscreants. If everyone in an estate had more or less tolerable differences in terms of economic status, i honestly think it will revert back to the estates of old where inclusiveness, openess, and close neighbourly relations was the rule of the day.

    Today, you have druggies sitting in playgrounds at night, numerous robberies especially in dire economic times, drive a car better than a cerato and sure kena scratch, break-ins, and idiots that pee and litter all over the place. There is this sense of insecurity in HDB estates today. And honestly, as long as the economic divide remains large, there ain't nothing HDB or town councils can do about it.
    Condo living affords a sense of community far far more than HDB estates do. All the kids play and grow up together - no matter how exclusive or mass market that condo is. The fathers in the condo all try to exhi-borat and yaya in the management committee; the stay home mums come up with spa clubs and other similar akua shit. Why? because the economic and social strata of families there are somewhat similar, and there is a strong sense of security in gated communities.

    The only similarity condos share with HDB is that somehow, each always has that crazy cat lady that feeds the cats every night and has somehow made it a mission in life to propagate the feline species.

  22. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    yeah, privilege is S$200k to dunno how much and private is US$2m and above. 2 big different tiers.
    Yup, think the term 'financial planning' probably still applies for that first group, while 'wealth management' is for the latter ...

  23. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Today, you have druggies sitting in playgrounds at night, numerous robberies especially in dire economic times, drive a car better than a cerato and sure kena scratch, break-ins, and idiots that pee and litter all over the place. There is this sense of insecurity in HDB estates today. And honestly, as long as the economic divide remains large, there ain't nothing HDB or town councils can do about it.

    Condo living affords a sense of community far far more than HDB estates do. All the kids play and grow up together - no matter how exclusive or mass market that condo is. The fathers in the condo all try to exhi-borat and yaya in the management committee; the stay home mums come up with spa clubs and other similar akua shit. Why? because the economic and social strata of families there are somewhat similar, and there is a strong sense of security in gated communities.

    The only similarity condos share with HDB is that somehow, each always has that crazy cat lady that feeds the cats every night and has somehow made it a mission in life to propagate the feline species.
    gfoo, though I agree with you on the social/rich poor divide will polarise the society in years to come, I do not agree on the sense of community in condo living versus the sense of insecurity in HDB dwelling, unless you are referring to those 1-2 bedroom flats in lower income districts such as Redhill and Queenstown. But even so, I would still prefer my child to grow up in a HDB flat than in a condo or landed property. The best way for a child to learn the qualities of humility, thrift and social compassion is through the behaviour of his/her parents. It is always easier for a child to understand the value of a dollar, about the less fortunate around him/herself, about the social divide and to develop compassion and humility through it by staying in a community where the children are from a lower income strata. Even when my husband and I earn a combined income exceeding $350K per annum, we still choose to drive a Jap car that costs less than $50K, and we still chose to eventually stay in a HDB flat such that our child can grow up to be grounded and humble. After all, the best way to teach a child is to lead by example.

    When parents start flaunting their wealth through private banking, spa clubs and super-cars ownership, it becomes next to impossible to instil in a young child the need to stretch each dollar, to be humble and to accept people of a lower income strata as equals. That's my humble flip side of the coin too.

  24. #474
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    Default Will property prices ever go back to the 2006 levels?

    Will property prices ever go back to the 2006 levels, when 500-600k can buy u a spacious 1250sqft 3bedroom unit.... I was looking at the quartz that time, but didn't buy because not enough funds.

  25. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    gfoo, though I agree with you on the social/rich poor divide will polarise the society in years to come, I do not agree on the sense of community in condo living versus the sense of insecurity in HDB dwelling, unless you are referring to those 1-2 bedroom flats in lower income districts such as Redhill and Queenstown. But even so, I would still prefer my child to grow up in a HDB flat than in a condo or landed property. The best way for a child to learn the qualities of humility, thrift and social compassion is through the behaviour of his/her parents. It is always easier for a child to understand the value of a dollar, about the less fortunate around him/herself, about the social divide and to develop compassion and humility through it by staying in a community where the children are from a lower income strata. Even when my husband and I earn a combined income exceeding $350K per annum, we still choose to drive a Jap car that costs less than $50K, and we still chose to eventually stay in a HDB flat such that our child can grow up to be grounded and humble. After all, the best way to teach a child is to lead by example.

    When parents start flaunting their wealth through private banking, spa clubs and super-cars ownership, it becomes next to impossible to instil in a young child the need to stretch each dollar, to be humble and to accept people of a lower income strata as equals. That's my humble flip side of the coin too.
    How about the role of school, mass media and peer pressure? Your son asks you for an Applet's iPod just because all his classmates have iPod, would u buy for him? You drive Japanese car then your son never take MRT/bus? You eat at restaurant everyday, then your son want to eat at non-aircon foodcourt? While I appaud your effort, it is definitely not easy in Singapore to teach the kids to be prudent, humble & thrifty. Staying in HDB is a minor factor at best compared to parent's behaviour, peer pressure, media, school, teachers etc My colleague's son entered neighbourhood school, 1st day primary school, teacher's first question is "those who have tuitions raise your hands .."

  26. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus
    Oh.. didn't know that preveliege refers to private banking.. thought previlege is like Citigold, Dbs treasures only, standchart priority type..

    Private banking is Citigold pte banking, UBS, Credit Suisse, StandardChartere Private Banking, DBS Private Banking..


    wow.. did you photocopy and paste on wall?! Not everytime can see signature of Forbes TOP 20!
    maybe next time can sign for him too..keke
    Why take picture of cheque when I can collect cheque and take picture with the cheque giver? But I dun do it cos as gfoo says it is in bad taste. Got a lot of chance to do that with different who who of sg. But somehow when I go to peoples house and see family photos mixed with other pictures of them shaking hands with politicians and businessmen, I feel that they are trying to hard.

    Gfoo, Thanks for the clarification. Yeah the cheque is a uob account High- Yield.

  27. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnTan
    Why take picture of cheque when I can collect cheque and take picture with the cheque giver? But I dun do it cos as gfoo says it is in bad taste. Got a lot of chance to do that with different who who of sg. But somehow when I go to peoples house and see family photos mixed with other pictures of them shaking hands with politicians and businessmen, I feel that they are trying to hard.

    Gfoo, Thanks for the clarification. Yeah the cheque is a uob account High- Yield.
    You an agent?

  28. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by new2mondrian
    gfoo, though I agree with you on the social/rich poor divide will polarise the society in years to come, I do not agree on the sense of community in condo living versus the sense of insecurity in HDB dwelling, unless you are referring to those 1-2 bedroom flats in lower income districts such as Redhill and Queenstown. But even so, I would still prefer my child to grow up in a HDB flat than in a condo or landed property. The best way for a child to learn the qualities of humility, thrift and social compassion is through the behaviour of his/her parents. It is always easier for a child to understand the value of a dollar, about the less fortunate around him/herself, about the social divide and to develop compassion and humility through it by staying in a community where the children are from a lower income strata. Even when my husband and I earn a combined income exceeding $350K per annum, we still choose to drive a Jap car that costs less than $50K, and we still chose to eventually stay in a HDB flat such that our child can grow up to be grounded and humble. After all, the best way to teach a child is to lead by example.

    When parents start flaunting their wealth through private banking, spa clubs and super-cars ownership, it becomes next to impossible to instil in a young child the need to stretch each dollar, to be humble and to accept people of a lower income strata as equals. That's my humble flip side of the coin too.
    Lol i don't have a kid yet, but fingers crossed, soon . My job as future-parent is to provide the best available infrastructure for my kid to flourish and be an outstanding member of society. We can agree to disagree, as parenting is a very personal, and subjective concern unique to individuals.


    - Rather than teaching my kid about the value of the dollar, i will want to teach him the utility of the dollar. earning a buck through hard work is one thing, but earning two bucks through less work and then turning those two bucks into a hundred bucks is another.

    - The close community ties of the HDB flats of old is gone. At my marital place, there are druggies in the playgrounds, out-of-work young persons influencing schoolkids and such, undesirables swearing at the playgrounds etc. You have robberies, car vandalism, and other miscreant behaviour. Getting my kid to identify with the lower strata is one thing, exposing the kid to such risks to me is irresponsibile when one has alternatives.

    Let's not kid ourselves - the people we hangout with are more or less people that we are comfortable with, and that invariably means people of similar social stratas and common interests. The formative years of a kid is important - i posted previous in another thread 'It's who you grow up with that defines how you grow up'.

    A kid who hangs out with peers that play truant to go play arcade will eventually play truant to go play arcade - because that is the accepted norm amongst his 'society'. A kid who hangs out with peers that love soccer will kick a ball soon; etc etc you catch my drift.

    I grew up in a condo. Every day, we have an allotted time where the other kids will ask my mom or maid for permission to play - and we'll go en-masse down to the pool: I learnt how to dive. Other days, we'll go to each other's place for hours of D&D: I learnt how to imagine and create great stories. Exam time, those of us who were of the same grade will go to the reading room to study, sometimes the older brothers will guide us, sometimes someone's tuition teach will guide us enmasse. We'll cycle in the compound free of fear of rushing cars under the watchful eye of the guard: i learnt to ride a bike & roller skate. When we grew up, these same neigbour kids became close friends sharing business experiences, contacts and contracts. I have never seen such an extent in my 5 years living in a HDB in modern times. This is happening at the condo i stay in now.

    While i agree with you no one should flaunt private banking accounts or their Infinite cards or black centurions, cars and stuff are individual passions. I want my kid to aspire, not to learn how to stretch the dollar he has, but rather how to grow that dollar in to many more dollars. He will always to be taught compassion, and to treat all as human beings, but whether the kid treats those from other stratas as equals is subjective. If my kid deems himself the equal to the Prince of Wales, he'd better work hard to reach that par. If those beneath him want to be treated as an equal, they'd have to earn his respect.

    Dun flame hor. This is not an argument or to put anyone down, but this is my own very personal way of how if i do have a kid, i'll bring him or her up. It may not be the right way or the best way, but it's my way.

  29. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    Lol i don't have a kid yet, but fingers crossed, soon . My job as future-parent is to provide the best available infrastructure for my kid to flourish and be an outstanding member of society. We can agree to disagree, as parenting is a very personal, and subjective concern unique to individuals.


    - Rather than teaching my kid about the value of the dollar, i will want to teach him the utility of the dollar. earning a buck through hard work is one thing, but earning two bucks through less work and then turning those two bucks into a hundred bucks is another.

    - The close community ties of the HDB flats of old is gone. At my marital place, there are druggies in the playgrounds, out-of-work young persons influencing schoolkids and such, undesirables swearing at the playgrounds etc. You have robberies, car vandalism, and other miscreant behaviour. Getting my kid to identify with the lower strata is one thing, exposing the kid to such risks to me is irresponsibile when one has alternatives.

    Let's not kid ourselves - the people we hangout with are more or less people that we are comfortable with, and that invariably means people of similar social stratas and common interests. The formative years of a kid is important - i posted previous in another thread 'It's who you grow up with that defines how you grow up'.

    A kid who hangs out with peers that play truant to go play arcade will eventually play truant to go play arcade - because that is the accepted norm amongst his 'society'. A kid who hangs out with peers that love soccer will kick a ball soon; etc etc you catch my drift.

    I grew up in a condo. Every day, we have an allotted time where the other kids will ask my mom or maid for permission to play - and we'll go en-masse down to the pool: I learnt how to dive. Other days, we'll go to each other's place for hours of D&D: I learnt how to imagine and create great stories. Exam time, those of us who were of the same grade will go to the reading room to study, sometimes the older brothers will guide us, sometimes someone's tuition teach will guide us enmasse. We'll cycle in the compound free of fear of rushing cars under the watchful eye of the guard: i learnt to ride a bike & roller skate. When we grew up, these same neigbour kids became close friends sharing business experiences, contacts and contracts. I have never seen such an extent in my 5 years living in a HDB in modern times. This is happening at the condo i stay in now.

    While i agree with you no one should flaunt private banking accounts or their Infinite cards or black centurions, cars and stuff are individual passions. I want my kid to aspire, not to learn how to stretch the dollar he has, but rather how to grow that dollar in to many more dollars. He will always to be taught compassion, and to treat all as human beings, but whether the kid treats those from other stratas as equals is subjective. If my kid deems himself the equal to the Prince of Wales, he'd better work hard to reach that par. If those beneath him want to be treated as an equal, they'd have to earn his respect.

    Dun flame hor. This is not an argument or to put anyone down, but this is my own very personal way of how if i do have a kid, i'll bring him or her up. It may not be the right way or the best way, but it's my way.
    At what age you start smoking?

  30. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    At what age you start smoking?
    Army, reinforced during NUS.

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