View Poll Results: Will Rivergate hit 1k psf ?

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Thread: Will Rivergate hit 1k psf and below?

  1. #151
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    one of its kind? buy high sell low? What is the rationale for highly paid top talent to buy high and sell low? Does that mean lesser paid fund managers are less talented? What happened to the highly paid top talents who were selling CDOs around the globe?

    It pains me to see how money was lost investing in BofA. In early 2008, Jim Rogers already said he feels sad to see the investment made in US investment banks. Obviously, many others saw clearly how much trouble there was going to be at BofA and other US Investment banks.


    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    I would say Temasek is one of its kind in the world. First class. Ferrell is in no way similar to Temasek. You can't compare it with a world class sovereign wealth fund with highly paid top talent managing it.

    btw, BOA price is still just US$11, still down more than 60% compared to 1 year ago. It's just that Temasek unloaded at -80% to -90%.

    Are you saying that Ferrell is also unloading at the bottom?

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    one of its kind? buy high sell low? What is the rationale for highly paid top talent to buy high and sell low? Does that mean lesser paid fund managers are less talented?
    The lesser paid fund managers are of course less talented than Temasek in buying HIGH and selling low.

    I read somewhere that if you throw S$1 MILLION into the Singapore River EVERY DAY, it would take you EIGHTEEN FREAKING YEARS to lose US$4.6 billion.

    See how talented our talent are.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    one of its kind? buy high sell low? What is the rationale for highly paid top talent to buy high and sell low? Does that mean lesser paid fund managers are less talented? What happened to the highly paid top talents who were selling CDOs around the globe?

    It pains me to see how money was lost investing in BofA. In early 2008, Jim Rogers already said he feels sad to see the investment made in US investment banks. Obviously, many others saw clearly how much trouble there was going to be at BofA and other US Investment banks.
    with the series of disastrous investments starting from the 90s with micropolis, it is beyond doubt that they are NOT talents.. LOL

  4. #154
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    Back to RG, I visited the project today and Lippo units are literally flying off the shelves at 1400 to 1500+psf. Another 10 sold yesterday. Soon we will see more 1400+psf transactions because all the high floor 1500+psf units have been snapped up with only 3 left. Out of my reach already. So ironic that we are discussing it under this thread where we were hoping to buy at 1k.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    I would say Temasek is one of its kind in the world. First class. Ferrell is in no way similar to Temasek. You can't compare it with a world class sovereign wealth fund with highly paid top talent managing it.

    btw, BOA price is still just US$11, still down more than 60% compared to 1 year ago. It's just that Temasek unloaded at -80% to -90%.

    Are you saying that Ferrell is also unloading at the bottom?
    There is a diff. Temasek lost $$$, Ferrel make $$$. If I were Ferrel, I will also sell now if I am in for a quick speculative gain.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    There is a diff. Temasek lost $$$, Ferrel make $$$. If I were Ferrel, I will also sell now if I am in for a quick speculative gain.
    Yup, Ferrell is better than Temasek.

  7. #157
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    There is a diff. Temasek lost $$$, Ferrel make $$$. If I were Ferrel, I will also sell now if I am in for a quick speculative gain.
    exactly... the only reason to unload now is to catch the sudden spike of buying sentiment.. in long run, this is still in the downtrend. I believe this is exactly what Ferrel is seeing...

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Douk
    exactly... the only reason to unload now is to catch the sudden spike of buying sentiment.. in long run, this is still in the downtrend. I believe this is exactly what Ferrel is seeing...
    I like this interpretation. So Ferrell is predicting prices will head lower... otherwise, assuming they have holding power, why sell now if prices are going to head higher?

  9. #159
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    The more desperate bears we have in this forum, the sooner price will stabilize and inch up. Nop, it is not V-shape, it is U-shape according to MM Lee. Wait till you see Q2 PPI up 0.1%, all the bears will rush out to buy.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    The more desperate bears we have in this forum, the sooner price will stabilize and inch up. Nop, it is not V-shape, it is U-shape according to MM Lee. Wait till you see Q2 PPI up 0.1%, all the bears will rush out to buy.
    Have you bought already?

    The article below was published in yesterday's BT, which they syndicated from Bloomberg http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...WuQ&refer=home

    Of course, the US consumers have absolutely no impact on Singapore's property market...

    Wall St slump's ripple effects hit average Joe

    May 22 (Bloomberg) -- After former Bear Stearns Cos. trader Guy Irace lost his job on the bond desk a year ago, he moved back to Long Island to teach high school math and dropped 40 pounds. Jack Yang’s deli in Manhattan cut three employees.

    Cavonberry’s, Yang’s 46th Street shop near the headquarters of the New York firm taken over by JPMorgan Chase & Co., once bustled with finance workers jostling to buy a barbeque chicken chopped salad and bottled water for $12. “They used to be turning them away at the door,” Irace said.

    Last week, slow enough that one cashier instead of the usual two operated the register at midday, Yang tallied up the ripple effect of the financial slump that cost Bear Stearns its independence: He negotiated a $4,000 monthly decrease in rent with Sierra Realty Corp., to $17,000, and is spending 35 percent less a week with Fischer Foods of New York Inc. for such things as artichokes and ham.

    “Since January, everything’s dead,” said Yang, 52.

    The biggest Wall Street crisis since the Great Depression isn’t just a setback for New York or bankers. The finance industry’s contraction may wipe out $185 billion in wages and profits, or $600 for every man, woman and child in the U.S., according to Thomas Philippon, a finance professor at New York University’s Stern School of Business. The trail of reduced income affects car mechanics, waiters, sports teams, hair stylists, jewelers, housecleaners and watch repair shops.

    Largest Absolute Drop

    “We’re seeing lots of lives derailed,” said Simon Johnson, professor of entrepreneurship at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

    Irace, who worked at Bear Stearns for 19 years and is now a teacher in Uniondale, New York, is one of 255,441 people who’ve lost U.S. finance jobs since January 2008, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Thousands more have seen cutbacks in pay.

    In New York City alone, bonuses fell to $18.4 billion last year from $32.9 billion in 2007, the largest absolute drop ever, according to the state comptroller’s office.

    The consumer discretionary and industrial sectors -- dependent on people who buy refrigerators, restaurant meals or cars -- are the only areas that have shrunk more than finance, with 383,340 and 270,278 job losses, according to the data. For each finance post eliminated, 3.3 in other industries will vanish, the comptroller’s office estimated.

    “The higher your income, the more in services you consume,” said Ariell Reshef, an economics professor at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. “You don’t iron your own shirt.”

    A Pound Of Ham

    On the convertible bond desk at Bear Stearns, traders made from $175,000 to $1 million annually, depending on bonuses, Irace said. He dined with co-workers at Del Frisco’s Double Eagle Steak House, home of the $55.95 porterhouse. Now he earns $75 to $175 a day at Kellenberg Memorial High School and often brings a packed lunch from home.

    “You buy a pound of ham and you’ve got sandwiches for the whole week,” said Irace, 44.

    Other banking refugees are navigating new lifestyles. Peter Stavropoulos, a one-time hedge fund strategist, said he handles drunk-driving cases as a lawyer in upstate New York. Amy DePaulo, a facilities manager at a New York bond firm for 14 years, may retrain as a paralegal after losing a job paying $100,000 annually. Michael Gabriel, a former money market fund manager for Victory Capital Management in Cleveland, said he’s applied for 100 jobs since his position was eliminated in 2007.

    Lots Of Underwear

    All are cutting back, with consequences for those who depended on banks’ outsized pay. The average securities industry salary reached a record high of almost $400,000 in 2007, or 6.8 times the average for nonfinancial jobs in the city, according to the comptroller’s office.

    Gabriel started cutting his own lawn, costing his gardener $450 a year, he said. DePaulo used to splurge on gifts for her nephew, spending $1,000 at Christmas. This past year the 22- year-old got lots of underwear, she said.

    Stavropoulos, whose father, George, was a clothing designer who made dresses for opera singer Maria Callas, got a dual degree in law and business and worked for almost a decade as a credit analyst at firms including Standard & Poor’s. He joined the Stamford, Connecticut, hedge fund Sailfish Capital Partners LLC in 2006. He left in 2008, as the firm wound down funds.

    Now his office looks out over a supermarket’s rooftop in Millerton, a town of 925 people about 100 miles (160 kilometers) north of Manhattan.

    $125 Haircut

    Earning less, the attorney stopped buying a daily venti black iced tea, unsweetened, from Starbucks Corp., which said Jan. 28 it will cut 6,700 jobs this year. He goes less often to Procter & Gamble Co.’s Frederic Fekkai salon in Greenwich, Connecticut, where haircuts start at $125. His wife’s cousin in Queens trims it.

    “I used to take $300 for the week -- that was walking- around money,” he said. “Now I take $100 for the week. Forget about ordering sushi for lunch.”

    Stavropoulos remembers accompanying 16 people in mid-2007 to Morimoto, the West Village sushi restaurant of Masaharu Morimoto, from the “Iron Chef” television program. The group spent more than $3,200, he said, then headed to the Buddha Bar, where patrons rubbed shoulders in a high-ceilinged space resembling an Asian temple.

    Many nights, financial types crowded tables where “bottle service” starts at $250 for a Veuve Clicquot Brut Rose 2000 champagne, said Jessica Rosa, a waitress at the time.

    Falling Tips

    It wasn’t uncommon to see someone with a black American Express Co. card ringing up a $30,000 tab, said Tim Gaglio, who helped start the restaurant and bar in 2006.

    The black “Centurion” card, billed as “the world’s rarest,” is available by invitation only, according to the company’s Web site.

    At the peak, Rosa, 30, said she made $85,000 a year working three days a week.

    “You wouldn’t see an empty chair here,” she said, surveying the half-filled lounge last week. As tips fell, Rosa stopped taking frequent trips to Miami, where she ate at the Prime 112 steakhouse on Ocean Drive, and to Puerto Rico, where she stayed at the Palmas del Mar resort.

    Buddha Bar’s Gaglio said he’s planning for sales of $12 million this year after they reached $20 million in 2007, when the restaurant was one of the country’s highest-grossing. He’s added cheaper wines, like a J. Lohr Chardonnay for $11 by the glass, and is squeezing fish vendor F. Rozzo & Sons and beef seller John Jobbagy for pennies per pound. He asked employees to work harder, and said he terminated three last week.

    Period Of Excess

    “For such a long time, it was such enormous volume that people got very complacent and spoiled,” he said.

    The pullback may prove worthwhile in the long run, by directing the economy to more productive areas, said the University of Virginia’s Reshef.

    Wall Street compensation may have been as much as 50 percent too high from 1995 to 2006, according to his December 2008 survey with NYU’s Philippon of the U.S. finance industry over the past century. The other period of excess pay was around 1930, the year after the stock market crashed.

    “What happened here is a misallocation of capital on a gigantic scale,” Reshef said.

    Eventually, people will replace lost income as they retrain, gain new skills, move and find jobs -- which may take as long as 10 years, said Johnson, the Cambridge, Massachusetts- based economist.

    Little League

    “An economy like the United States has the ability to create new jobs and it has a bounce-back ability that we shouldn’t discount,” he said.

    Irace, who enjoyed coaching Little League baseball as a teenager on Long Island, said he considered a career as a coach or an athletic director when he graduated in finance from Fairfield University, in Fairfield, Connecticut. Instead he found a job at Salomon Brothers with the help of a roommate’s father, a managing director. Two years later, he moved to Bear.

    After Irace got his termination papers in June from JPMorgan Chase, he called “Brother K.”

    Brother Kenneth Hoagland, the principal at Kellenberg, a private Catholic institution, taught Irace at Chaminade High School in Mineola, New York.

    Hoagland called Irace in for an interview in August, when he needed a replacement for a math instructor on leave. A month later, the former trader was teaching quadratic equations and factoring to freshmen in five 40-minute periods of algebra a day. He enrolled in refresher math classes at Nassau Community College, sometimes learning subjects a day or two ahead of the kids. This semester, he’s teaching sixth-graders measurements and percentages.

    Conditioning Drills

    Seated at wooden desks, 21 to 39 in each class, they get excited when he flashes the animated math adventures of a robot named Moby onto a classroom projector. After school, Irace, now 198 pounds (90 kilograms), puts a whistle on a yellow cord around his neck and runs girls through conditioning drills as an assistant coach for the lacrosse team. The extra coaching stipend runs $1,000 to $2,000 for the season.

    Irace used to spend about as much in Manhattan every month, when he had an apartment in Gramercy Park and co-workers joked that he attended more New York Knicks games than Jeff Van Gundy, the National Basketball Association team’s former coach. This week, he stayed home and graded papers.

    Single -- with his three-bedroom, Colonial-style house in Oyster Bay, Long Island, paid off -- Irace got what he called a “very generous” severance from JPMorgan that runs out in September. His teaching job ends June 16, and with no guarantee of a job in the fall, he plans to look into unemployment benefits. Irace tells Wall Street friends he won’t be back.

    “Things don’t always work out this way,” he said, recalling what one teacher told him when he got the Kellenberg job: “This is probably your true calling.”

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by firec
    Have you bought already?

    The article below was published in yesterday's BT, which they syndicated from Bloomberg http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2...WuQ&refer=home

    Of course, the US consumers have absolutely no impact on Singapore's property market...
    Pal, what about you? You bought seaview at 750psf already? Or someone bought it at 755psf?

  12. #162
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    do u live along Duok Ave behind NUS?
    Quote Originally Posted by Douk
    exactly... the only reason to unload now is to catch the sudden spike of buying sentiment.. in long run, this is still in the downtrend. I believe this is exactly what Ferrel is seeing...

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    Pal, what about you? You bought seaview at 750psf already? Or someone bought it at 755psf?
    The auction was cancelled. Maybe it's sold at 2000psf. Good chance your property will appreciate in value very soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    but I still have my havana cigar and my martell to drink every night.
    Ya lah, you are rich lah, hao lian.

    If you are so rich, whether prices go up or down doesn't matter to you right, so why are you still concerned and hanging around a forum on condos? Shouldn't you be playing golf, jetting around and socialising with the upper class?

    And you should be staying and investing in GCBs, not the poor-man's condos which you talked about in these threads.

    Or you are just pretending lor... you only have a net worth of $5-6mio like the rest of us here.
    Last edited by firec; 24-05-09 at 22:58.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    Owner. 2nd unit sold for me. Please...don't ask if i'm a agent or not
    Of course you're an agent. Not hard to tell.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    Paiseh. Not me. I mean my friend.
    You miss this post!

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    My friend just sms me. He sold another of his RG @ 1400psf.
    And this!!!!!!

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Property_Owner
    And this!!!!!!
    One conclusion. RG is a hot property. It is not that the psf will not go down to $1K and below. But the interested demand is sufficiently to keep it above the $1kpsf level. Meaning too many investors waiting to grab at $1,100psf to $1,300psf for good units. I believe the rationale is that it has the potential capital gain to at least $1,500psf and above. Therefore, short term risk of going to $900-$1000psf is negligible to them.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin002
    One conclusion. RG is a hot property. It is not that the psf will not go down to $1K and below. But the interested demand is sufficiently to keep it above the $1kpsf level. Meaning too many investors waiting to grab at $1,100psf to $1,300psf for good units. I believe the rationale is that it has the potential capital gain to at least $1,500psf and above. Therefore, short term risk of going to $900-$1000psf is negligible to them.
    so the seller at 1400 psf is taking profit ?

    or is he seeing 1400 toppish ? cash out and go into something nearby for 1200 psf ?

  20. #170
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    If I am them, I sell RG at $1400-1500 psf and buy Cuscaden Royale or whatever near Ochard MRT at $1800 psf.

    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    so the seller at 1400 psf is taking profit ?

    or is he seeing 1400 toppish ? cash out and go into something nearby for 1200 psf ?

  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    so the seller at 1400 psf is taking profit ?

    or is he seeing 1400 toppish ? cash out and go into something nearby for 1200 psf ?

    The launch price is around $1Kpsf for RG in 2005. There could be various reason for seller at $1,400psf. One thing for sure, he is taking profit.

    $1,400 definately not toppish as it goes beyond $1,700psf during peak.

    I guess seller could have missed the boat previously and after recent crisis, decided to let go as long as there is good profit.

  22. #172
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    Default Quote from another forum

    Originally Posted by overlorden
    i have checked out the cbd projects lately as i was hoping to pick up some bargains and this is what i found:

    Lumiere - asking $1,700-1800 for high floors with panorama seaview. low floor developer sold units this month at $1400-1500 with pocket view. small units (500-900 sq.ft.) means good yields as price point can be around $1 million. only other unblocked seaview in CBD except for Sail and MBR. But SOHO project a bit different than pure residential (compare more to Central at Clark Quay but more exclusive finish and better MRT access for CBD (Tg Pagar vs purple line). Will turn out nicer than Icon when completed but undermarketed by developer so not many people know.

    Icon - around $1400-1500 psf for middle and high floors. More time expired on lease than other CBD projects. decent finish but dont like 15-20 units per floor and 600+ total units....think in 5 years it will look worse and have more International Plaza feel...good yield potential at these prices but not much appreciation potential as i dont think this will ever be a $2000psf project. BTW, i asked for a valuation of an Icon unit and PREMAS gave me a report that said Icon should always be valued $200-300psf than Lumiere based on quality....fyi only.

    Clift - 1 bank sale done at 1156 PSF (auction). No great views to speak of. Remaining units not so cheap ($1300-1700 psf). Bad layouts. Would disregard this project as no MRT access, and 12 units per floor in Amoy area. Not my cup of tea.

    One Shenton - instead of a seaview, this project gets 4-5 years of construction on the sea-facing side. Should be good finishes but not much appreciation potential at prices of $1700-1800+ psf...units too big to offer good yields at this price. nice building and great architecture but not a good investment unless u can get banks to rent corporate apartments.

    Sail - asking up to $2.4k psf for top bayviews now! around $1500-1600 psf for non bayview.

    Marina Bay Residence - v. nice project....bayviews should be priced higher than Sail due to better finishes. Seaview also nice. Finishing quality higher than Sail (supposedly).

    Marina Bay Suites - waiting for launch still....developer said before that will never launch until price is at least $2500 psf...wonder if still true as this one will be definitely blocked so I wonder how to price higher than One Shenton...

    Therefore, for CBD, this is how I think the market will rank project pricing (PSF basis) from highest to lowest value (not necessarily today, but after all projects are complete in next 1-2 years):

    1) MBR Bayview
    2) Sail Bayview
    3) MBR Seaview-Cityview
    4) Sail Seaview
    5) Lumiere Seaview
    6) One Shenton High Floor
    7) Marina Bay Suites High Floor (when launched)
    8) Sail Blocked units = Lumiere City View = Icon High Floor = One Shenton Low Floor = Clift City View and High Floor
    9) Clift Low Floor = Icon Low Floor
    10) Beacon


    => Thought this is excellent, thanks to original contributor

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by jitkiat
    Originally Posted by overlorden


    Sail - asking up to $2.4k psf for top bayviews now! around $1500-1600 psf for non bayview.

    TS and MBR are priced such when the whole area is a dusty construction site. I wonder what the pricing will be once everything comes to fruition end 2009/early 2010. I do hope the 'landscape premium' balances out further potential declines that i will prob hit us once this false recovery ends

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    did ferrel manage to unload all those units?

  25. #175
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    Default Fire sale?

    Any cheap/fire sale units available? I'm looking to buy... but only if price is good

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    an agent just sms, a 3 bedder above 35th floor asking 1500psf ~ lol

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    probably spurred on by Ferell's successful sales of 3 and 4 bedrooms at above 1500psf for > #30, but that's at the premium blk 97.


    Quote Originally Posted by august
    an agent just sms, a 3 bedder above 35th floor asking 1500psf ~ lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    probably spurred on by Ferell's successful sales of 3 and 4 bedrooms at above 1500psf for > #30, but that's at the premium blk 97.
    Ferrell's units are actually owned by Stephen Riady / Lippo. Ferrell was merely helping to sell... Ferrell has a property fund in its fund family, and no prie for guessing who is the owner of the fund.

    in any case, those units has been taken back from Ferrell. Now it is being sold by Auric Pacific, another of Lippo's vehicle.

  29. #179
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    Does it matter who is selling the units since the ultimate owner is still Lippo?

    How are the units taken back from Ferrell? Ferrell owns the units from their purchase in 2005 right? Auric Pacific is a seperate listed entity also controlled by Lippo but if the units were to be sold by Auric Pacific surely there would have to be a sale from Ferrell to Auric and not just a "take back" as you mentioned? There would be different minority shareholders which have an interest in Ferrell and Auric right?


    Quote Originally Posted by pweesng
    Ferrell's units are actually owned by Stephen Riady / Lippo. Ferrell was merely helping to sell... Ferrell has a property fund in its fund family, and no prie for guessing who is the owner of the fund.

    in any case, those units has been taken back from Ferrell. Now it is being sold by Auric Pacific, another of Lippo's vehicle.

  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    Does it matter who is selling the units since the ultimate owner is still Lippo?

    How are the units taken back from Ferrell? Ferrell owns the units from their purchase in 2005 right? Auric Pacific is a seperate listed entity also controlled by Lippo but if the units were to be sold by Auric Pacific surely there would have to be a sale from Ferrell to Auric and not just a "take back" as you mentioned? There would be different minority shareholders which have an interest in Ferrell and Auric right?
    well.. take back means... the person in charge of the sales is no longer David Lee but Yao Cher Wan.

    What i highly suspect is that there is only one investor in Ferrell's property fund.. that is why things can be so fluid.

    Yes, the units are still owned by Ferrell, but they basically no longer makes decision on what to sell and how much to sell at anymore...

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