View Poll Results: What's happening with the property market uptick (Mar 09) - u can choose more than 1

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  • This is a bear market rally. things will get worse

    47 51.65%
  • Singaporeans are idiots in general - always kena conned left right cte

    32 35.16%
  • Investors are parking their money into property as a hedge as the USD will be worthless anyways

    14 15.38%
  • Prices today are fair and close to the bottom. Expect an upturn by year end.

    22 24.18%
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Thread: Is the property market nuts? Poll

  1. #1
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    Default Is the property market nuts? Poll

    This post in part to answer some PM's i've gotten on the Sail and other prime areas. forgive me if my posts are long - sometimes i write these diatribes to help me think better as i'm getting old. too bad they don't got no viagra for the head on top of my neck.

    Before Feb, the whole property market was in a freefall. then came alexis & caspians where our local champion citizens came in and bought it up at ridiculously high PSFs - this sparked off mi casa, kembangan, and a whole load of others. Thus developers came to this reality - either i play quantum for good locations, or low psf for the suburbs. thus one of two things happened.

    1. $650sq ft was the floor set for the suburbs mass market (mi casa, caspian etc)
    2. $1100psf was the floor set for not so [email protected] up localities (not exceeding $600k)

    So at around end Feb, people were starting to think: 'Eh, if a boondogs condo can fetch $650 PSF, 99 year somemore next to a mosquito infested lake, why am i selling my one amber for $750psf?' or 'Eh, if a condo apartment the size of my dining table in some cock area sells for $1100psf just because it's 5 mins away from raffles place by WRX, why am i selling my Sail for $1200psf?' and so on.

    Then Geithner came in to announce that the printing presses are on overdrive. at the same time, ST at the behest of EDB no doubt runs stories on new property funds from Dubai, Korea and EU setting up shop here. 1 week later, Li Ka Shing says buy property now can ka-ching!. Soros also came out to say inflation is here to stay (property is one of the hedges for inflation).

    at around the same time, dunno how agents get my number, but everyone starts calling me to sell my unit. they are offering $100-$150psf above what i bought. 3/4 of the calls are from agents representing indonesians, china chinese, or mideast investors.

    Now, you hear about owners upping their PSF prices across the board. i was looking at an MBR studio advertised for $1350psf. i offered $1300psf coz i was paying more attention to the agent's twins than anything else. but the ad turned out to be a fake just to gauge interest. it's still going for $1550psf.

    So i'm here wondering:
    - is this a false bear market rally just like in the stock markets
    - or are investors fearing inflation that much that they are buying up commodities and assets in Asia with their USD
    - or are Singaporeans just gullible sheep?

    let's have a poll and let the people decide

    P.s: for those that ask me how to get the best deal - my response is the same: lotsa lotsa homework, emails and calls. always get an army of agents to represent you so you won't kena kotok

  2. #2
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    The pertinent issue here is your agent's twins. Any pic? If not, name and number will do too.

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    gfoo,

    I can understand your frustration, especially for genuine buyers like us who have been waiting and waiting for the prices to crash so that we can buy our dream home at dirt cheap price last since 3 years ago. But the fact that both developers and sub-sale sellers all have strong holding power and now its a tug-of-war between sellers (asking for high price) and buyers (asking for dirt cheap price). So, how do you think the market will fare? Everyone thinks that with the bad economic situation where more people are starting to lose their jobs and expats are going back their kampung, prices should by right, start to crash. But this is not happening. I am also wondering why and when the prices will crash like no tomorrow.

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    Hi gfoo, the poll is good. However, one comment. I feel the majority of the forummers here are "buyers". So the polls result obtained so far could be biased in a certain way.

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    I would think the crazy uncertainties in the stock market due to the uncertain global economy going forward and the promise of massive inflation coming due to the printing press as two reasons why people with cash are willing to choose the lesser evil of buying property.

    But if what you mentioned about middle-east buyers and overseas buyers coming in is true, that means this property market stablisation should be real. Global Investors go where the money brings value.

    Pte bankers are also gearing up clients to invest their money next quarter to position for any sort of economic recovery next year. But they are talking about asian focused equities portfolio, not property market.

    So.. Everything hinges on economic recovery .. I think if we have enough ... we just buy equities and bonds and properties..

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by focus
    But if what you mentioned about middle-east buyers and overseas buyers coming in is true, that means this property market stablisation should be real. Global Investors go where the money brings value.
    My personal, amateurish take on this is that in the face of devaluation and mass inflation, global investors are hedging their USD holdings in commodities and inflation-proof asset classes across the board. Gold, properties, natural resources - both on the fund and individual level.

    Today, my guru in the US has actually gone ahead with a purchase of a property in the states. This after years of calling the housing and stock market fall.

    I'm not allowed to do this but i'm replicating his words here. Note that this is a really old guy who's rich as croesus but as penny pinching as our ministry of health:

    "
    I made an offer on a house yesterday. Yet I expect prices to fall regionally. I also expect lots more houses to be offered for sale, beginning in April.
    Why did I buy?
    The agent said that the foreclosing bank had decided to sell it for $215,000. I decided this was a price I am willing to pay.
    I had walked through the house months ago. The seller was about to be foreclosed on. I was willing to go through the procedure of a short sale, where the seller would have to agree to my price, then get the bank to agree. There was another buyer in the picture. The bank was asking $230,000.
    My wife decided to buy. I decided to pay. Then she changed her mind. Why? It is too big a house for two people.
    She's right. It is. But it may be just right if we decide to sell to a large family at some point, when we scale down.
    How big is it? It has 2,850 s/f, total, for two floors, plus 1,950 s/f in an unfinished basement. There are 5 bedrooms, 3 baths.
    I am buying the basement for myself. For about $35,000, I can convert it into an office/recording studio, plus a kids' play area, a TV/music room, a kitchenette, a bedroom, a bathroom, storage space, and a huge pantry. It's cheap space per square foot.
    It was built in 2002.
    Why buy now? Because the short sale fell through. The other buyer backed out. The owner is out of the picture. The bank has lowered the price to $215,000. I am now the only bidder. I offered what the bank is asking. Don't get greedy, I say.
    Subtract $4,000 is closing costs. The bank will pay. We are at $211,000.
    I get a tax credit of $8,000. That shields $11,000 of my income. You thought that was for first-time buyers. It is. "First-time buyer" is defined as "someone who has not bought a house in 3 years." That is what my agent tells me. She has been selling homes this way for a month. "Your tax dollars at work." We are down to $203,000.
    I drove through the neighborhood. There was a house a few doors down the street just like the one I made the offer on. It has a much smaller back yard. Asking price: $369,000.
    I did the math. I decided to buy 30 minutes later. (Maybe I waited too long.)
    I will take a 15-year mortgage. I plan to sell some gold -- not too much -- to pay it off in a few years. I am buying the mortgage as a speculation. It's part of the investment.
    The interest rate will be 4.25%. My target rate was 4.2% months ago. Don't get greedy, I say. I'll not pass the deal for the extra .05%.
    I will pay 10% down. That will save me $15,000. I will pay $70 a month for this (PMI). That's $840 a year. Banks are not lending on second mortgages, which is what the borrowed money would be. I prefer to pay the extra money to get the $15,000.
    I plan to set up a soundproof audio/video recording studio in the basement. This will help me get more productive on this site. If I have the studio, I will be less likely to procrastinate on production. This is a motivational factor.
    I don't want to pay rent while waiting for a better deal to come along.
    It was time to act.
    It's possible that a better deal will come along. But when you have got a really good deal in your hand, close your hand.
    When I told a friend he could refinance at 4.25%, he immediately called my mortgage lady as SunTrust. He started the process yo secure a new loan. He will pay off his mortgage five years early for the same monthly fee.
    Thanks Bernanke. Thanks Paulson. We're getting the economy rolling again. Our economy. Not yours."

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    "expect dead cat bounce"
    "this time it is dfferent"

    http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_356818.html

    March 31, 2009
    Expect 'false recoveries'
    By Alvin Foo

    The crisis is so severe and multi-faceted that the real economy may bottom out the same time or just before global equities do. -- ST PHOTO: NEO XIAOBIN
    THE crisis is so severe and multi-faceted that the real economy may bottom out the same time or just before global equities do, unlike in past downturns when the market recovered six months ahead, said a market strategist here on Tuesday. CMC Markets chief market strategist Ashraf Laidi told a media briefing on Tuesday: 'This time it's different. The economic weakness has reached out to people's pockets from various channels - price of houses, price of stocks, debts to repay. All these will force them to cut spending, beyond just discretionary spending.'
    Typically, a stock market turnaround is seen as an advance indicator of an economic recovery.
    But Mr Laidi noted that in 2002, the stock market bottomed out after the economy reached a low in the United States.
    Thus, financial markets will be in for several 'false recoveries.'
    He predicted that stock markets will retest last year's lows again by July, noting: 'We're in a bear market rally, a dead cat bounce ... we're going to see the November lows again.'
    He noted that market rebounds in past crises were usually limited to between 25 and 27 per cent, and never went beyond 29 per cent.
    'Macroeconomically, things are still in bad shape,' he said.
    Global equitites may see a sustained recovery only in the second half of next year.

  8. #8
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    Default hdb prices

    yesterday i was at ghim moh and met an agent who was selling a 3 room flat, hdb, corridor unit. the valuation alone was $295000, owner asking $320,000 and best part got people see.

    i'm not sure if prices are really going to fall if the hdb market continues to be so robust too. seeing the indicators, prices should already be moving down fast but after hearing this news yesterday, i'm not so optimistic about catching any units condo or otherwise at a bargain in the short run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tericia
    yesterday i was at ghim moh and met an agent who was selling a 3 room flat, hdb, corridor unit. the valuation alone was $295000, owner asking $320,000 and best part got people see.

    i'm not sure if prices are really going to fall if the hdb market continues to be so robust too. seeing the indicators, prices should already be moving down fast but after hearing this news yesterday, i'm not so optimistic about catching any units condo or otherwise at a bargain in the short run.
    HDB price is crazy
    I encounter a 3 rm flat @ Bedok, Val @ $330K Owner asking for 60K COV.
    Best part is had ppl offer him $330k + $10K but owner reject.

  10. #10
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    govt is doing e right thing by making hdb prices sky hi so as to push people to pte pty mkt to boost pte pty sector. I salute to hi hdb prices being both a hdb n pte pty owner
    Quote Originally Posted by Acer
    HDB price is crazy
    I encounter a 3 rm flat @ Bedok, Val @ $330K Owner asking for 60K COV.
    Best part is had ppl offer him $330k + $10K but owner reject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    govt is doing e right thing by making hdb prices sky hi so as to push people to pte pty mkt to boost pte pty sector. I salute to hi hdb prices being both a hdb n pte pty owner
    Keeping property prices high artificially, even if its govt housing, without due consideration to the affordability and income progression will only lead to another property bubble. Its also economically inefficient for households to spend so much of their income on property.

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    the hi prices of hdb is not artificial as it takes into consideratn the progression of our economy frm 3rd to 1st world and the appeal of our country to the rest of the world. Hdb houses have been underpriced for years til nw. I thk current prices reflect the true value of our housing cost n shud only go higher.
    Quote Originally Posted by HP65
    Keeping property prices high artificially, even if its govt housing, without due consideration to the affordability and income progression will only lead to another property bubble. Its also economically inefficient for households to spend so much of their income on property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    the hi prices of hdb is not artificial as it takes into consideratn the progression of our economy frm 3rd to 1st world and the appeal of our country to the rest of the world. Hdb houses have been underpriced for years til nw. I thk current prices reflect the true value of our housing cost n shud only go higher.
    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! wat a joke





    hdb price has gone up bcos supply in recent yrs have shrank. The supply glut after 98 crisis resulted in some ministry's rethink about public housing supply.. meanwhile number of foreigners flooding in continues unabated.
    new hdb flats are overpriced, u dun hv to think too hard to know wat their construction costs are. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    the hi prices of hdb is not artificial as it takes into consideratn the progression of our economy frm 3rd to 1st world and the appeal of our country to the rest of the world. Hdb houses have been underpriced for years til nw. I thk current prices reflect the true value of our housing cost n shud only go higher.
    you idiot.

    assuming you're right, that our transition from 3rd world to 1st has resulted in world-class housing prices, you failed to realise that singaporean salaries in general are anything but world-class.

    in fact, the minority of singaporeans, high earners who earn a salary on par with their counterpart in london or new york usually do not even reside in singapore, and even if they lived in singapore, are statistical outliers who buy and live in huge landed properties in holland bukit timah or some chic apartment on paterson - NOT representative at all of the general singaporean population.

    the price of homes for the general population (HDB) have gone up way beyond the reach of the average income singaporean. some of them may take 2 generations to pay off their flat.

    if that is not overpriced, I don't know what is.
    Last edited by ahlahdin; 10-04-09 at 20:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    the hi prices of hdb is not artificial as it takes into consideratn the progression of our economy frm 3rd to 1st world and the appeal of our country to the rest of the world. Hdb houses have been underpriced for years til nw. I thk current prices reflect the true value of our housing cost n shud only go higher.
    not everyone holding the salary like elite

    Our minister salary is top of the world. Does not make the rest also top of the world.
    How many % is that in the whole population in Singapore is having that kind of salary?

    Economy 1st world.
    But salary only the tips is 1st world.

    Base on a study that the government release some time back.
    middle class is from $3k mthly salary onward.

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    What????? you expect hdb to sell you a flat at cost or near cost???? maybe if ur father is the MM, that may happen. In the 1980s, the average salaries of people was between $300 to $500 a month (not sure if you remember) and a flat costs merely a few tens of thousands to buy it. When society becomes more affluent, and people are earning averagely $2000 to $3000 now, do you still expect the govt to sell people 4 -rm flats at $30000?? If HDB flats are going for less than $100k now, nobody would be taking a loan and the banks will dry up. You forgot to mention inflation as a factor for the prices of flats to go up. It is simple logic, the plate of noodles that used to cost you $1 is now $4 at a food court, so do you still expect things to be priced as low as the 1980s? If you still consider $300k for a 4 rm hdb flat in a matured estate expensive, maybe the better solution for you would be to live in malaysia, with many kampong towns still around for you to buy cheap houses (even landed property)...


    Quote Originally Posted by august
    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! wat a joke





    hdb price has gone up bcos supply in recent yrs have shrank. The supply glut after 98 crisis resulted in some ministry's rethink about public housing supply.. meanwhile number of foreigners flooding in continues unabated.
    new hdb flats are overpriced, u dun hv to think too hard to know wat their construction costs are. lol

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    Hey nut, who told you that you would need world class salary to live in an hdb flat? do you know that londoners and new yorkers pay really high taxes and the standard of living is also damn high? I bet you have never even worked in these countries nor have you lived there. a mcdonald's meal in london cost around 4 pounds, which translates to around 12 bucks when the pound was 1-3. To dine in a chinese restaurant, ordering a bowl of wanton soup with 4 wantons in it, would cost you 3 pounds and there are many more examples of the high cost of living. When kids play at arcades in london, they slot 1 pound coins into the machines, not the 50 cents our kids usually put into the machines.

    my point is that with that kind of living standard in london and new york , it works out to about the same as singapore when you weigh it against the income of people. If you are talking about ministers salaries and their homes, you are right that a $300k home is peanuts to them, coz one of our ministers live in a $20 million dollar house along Astrid Hill (beside house number 8) with a swimming pool overlooking vast greenery (pass the unit which has a guard house outside and you will see). Maybe you can divide $20 million by $300k and see the difference for yourself.

    I dont know how you came up with 2 generations to pay up for an hdb flat? Many hdb dwellers can even thank hdb for owning subsidised flats (including me). I bought my first hdb flat in punggol at 150k and later sold it at 250k, leaving me with 100k to better plan for my future. many hdb dwellers are doing that so nothing new. singapore has 90% home-ownership and i don't blame you for thinking that every singaporean should have the right to own a flat with the govt achieving that kind of figure which is unprecedented by any country in the world. but let me ask you, on what basis do you think that all singaporeans ( i mean 99%) should have flat ownership? you mean the govt should also help the jobless and ultra-low income people to buy flats? wouldn't it go against the grain of our meritocratic system? with rising home prices, the percentage of home ownership has not dropped, so doesnt it speak of a country increasing in affluence? maybe you are disgruntled as you belong to that 10%.


    Quote Originally Posted by ahlahdin
    you idiot.

    assuming you're right, that our transition from 3rd world to 1st has resulted in world-class housing prices, you failed to realise that singaporean salaries in general are anything but world-class.

    in fact, the minority of singaporeans, high earners who earn a salary on par with their counterpart in london or new york usually do not even reside in singapore, and even if they lived in singapore, are statistical outliers who buy and live in huge landed properties in holland bukit timah or some chic apartment on paterson - NOT representative at all of the general singaporean population.

    the price of homes for the general population (HDB) have gone up way beyond the reach of the average income singaporean. some of them may take 2 generations to pay off their flat.

    if that is not overpriced, I don't know what is.

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    My mum in her late early 30s was today's equiv of a VP in an MNC in the 80s. When I was a VP in an MNC, my pay was only about 25% higher. BUT:

    She bought a FH condo overlooking sentosa at $300psf. Today, 99yr Carribean going at $1100psf. A 5rm HDB at Telok Blangah overlooking Keppel Club cost $120,000. Now it is $550k. Last time a bowl of wanton mee costs $0.80. Now it is at least $1.80.

    I sold my 5rm flat in the east to a young late 20s couple for $600k. Their combined income qualified for a HDB loan. They were cash poor, and didn't have enough for the standard deposit, i assume they maxed out their HDB loan. Their combined income was about $8.5k - they did not qualify for new flats. At this quantum (95% loan @ 35 years), their monthly repayment is about $2k. They also have 2 cars. They are both private sector. Unfortunately, most young couples and kids live this way today - paycheck to paycheck.

    Most grad young couples at age 25 combined income is prob $5000. A $280k 4rm in punggol will take $1000 per month in repayments. That's 20% of income for the boondogs - or their entire CPF contribution.

    Simply because the CPF system mitigates the forking out of cash, doesn't make it right for HDB to cost them that high. HDB flats at this rate are overpriced, when a young DINK couple needs to commit 1/4 of their earnings just to pay a mortgage till they are 65 years old.

    And please dun give us some cock story about inflation. 300-500% inflation in 20 years for construction costs? And we all know land costs are arbitrary - go ask HDB for a breakdown of costs if you can, incl the cost of purchasing land, then track the money flows, then come back and post in this forum - otherwise your arguments do not have credibility

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    inflation is just 1 of the factors i did not say it was the only factor. It took singapore just 40yr to be a first world country so for pty prices to reach this level in a short space of 20 odd years (half of singapore's age) is no hoohah. If u feel that i am talking cock then u r saying that our govt is the biggest cock for not pricing pty correctly. I think our govt is at least more intelligent than u which of course is needless to mention
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    My mum in her late early 30s was today's equiv of a VP in an MNC in the 80s. When I was a VP in an MNC, my pay was only about 25% higher. BUT:

    She bought a FH condo overlooking sentosa at $300psf. Today, 99yr Carribean going at $1100psf. A 5rm HDB jat Telok Blangah overlooking Keppel Club cost $120,000. Now it is $550k. Last time a bowl of wanton mee costs $0.80. Now it is at least $1.80.

    I sold my 5rm flat in the east to a young late 20s couple for $600k. Their combined income qualified for a HDB loan. They were cash poor, and didn't have enough for the standard deposit, i assume they maxed out their HDB loan. Their combined income was about $8.5k - they did not qualify for new flats. At this quantum (95% loan @ 35 years), their monthly repayment is about $2k. They also have 2 cars. They are both private sector. Unfortunately, most young couples and kids live this way today - paycheck to paycheck.

    Most grad young couples at age 25 combined income is prob $5000. A $280k 4rm in punggol will take $1000 per month in repayments. That's 20% of income for the boondogs - or their entire CPF contribution.

    Simply because the CPF system mitigates the forking out of cash, doesn't make it right for HDB to cost them that high. HDB flats at this rate are overpriced, when a young DINK couple needs to commit 1/4 of their earnings just to pay a mortgage till they are 65 years old.

    And please dun give us some cock story about inflation. 300-500% inflation in 20 years for construction costs? And we all know land costs are arbitrary - go ask HDB for a breakdown of costs if you can, incl the cost of purchasing land, then track the money flows, then come back and post in this forum - otherwise your arguments do not have credibility

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    Lol i ain't going to argue w you. Who cares who's more intelligent - i can continue to be spore's biggest arsewit for all i care. I do not agree with the system but heck, it's worked very well for many of us here. As long as there continues to be people who think and act like you, we will continue to laugh all the way to the bank. Thus, i am really happy for status quo, just too bad for the nextgen

    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    inflation is just 1 of the factors i did not say it was the only factor. It took singapore just 40yr to be a first world country so for pty prices to reach this level in a short space of 20 odd years (half of singapore's age) is no hoohah. If u feel that i am talking cock then u r saying that our govt is the biggest cock for not pricing pty correctly. I think our govt is at least more intelligent than u which of course is needless to mention

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    and by the way why didnt u sell ur 5 rm flat to the young couple at a big discount frm the valuation n chose to sell it at 600k if u r that against hdb's high valuation? U r one of those typical singaporeans who reap the benefit from rising hdb price n jiang feng liang hua about hdb overpricing flats. I think forumers can judge whether u r walking the talk urself or just talking cock here
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    My mum in her late early 30s was today's equiv of a VP in an MNC in the 80s. When I was a VP in an MNC, my pay was only about 25% higher. BUT:

    She bought a FH condo overlooking sentosa at $300psf. Today, 99yr Carribean going at $1100psf. A 5rm HDB at Telok Blangah overlooking Keppel Club cost $120,000. Now it is $550k. Last time a bowl of wanton mee costs $0.80. Now it is at least $1.80.

    I sold my 5rm flat in the east to a young late 20s couple for $600k. Their combined income qualified for a HDB loan. They were cash poor, and didn't have enough for the standard deposit, i assume they maxed out their HDB loan. Their combined income was about $8.5k - they did not qualify for new flats. At this quantum (95% loan @ 35 years), their monthly repayment is about $2k. They also have 2 cars. They are both private sector. Unfortunately, most young couples and kids live this way today - paycheck to paycheck.

    Most grad young couples at age 25 combined income is prob $5000. A $280k 4rm in punggol will take $1000 per month in repayments. That's 20% of income for the boondogs - or their entire CPF contribution.

    Simply because the CPF system mitigates the forking out of cash, doesn't make it right for HDB to cost them that high. HDB flats at this rate are overpriced, when a young DINK couple needs to commit 1/4 of their earnings just to pay a mortgage till they are 65 years old.

    And please dun give us some cock story about inflation. 300-500% inflation in 20 years for construction costs? And we all know land costs are arbitrary - go ask HDB for a breakdown of costs if you can, incl the cost of purchasing land, then track the money flows, then come back and post in this forum - otherwise your arguments do not have credibility

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    and by the way why didnt u sell ur 5 rm flat to the young couple at a big discount frm the valuation n chose to sell it at 600k if u r that against hdb's high valuation? U r one of those typical singaporeans who reap the benefit from rising hdb price n jiang feng liang hua about hdb overpricing flats. I think forumers can judge whether u r walking the talk urself or just talking cock here
    lol. read my prev post.

    and yes, i did sell it less than valuation. on top of that, almost $100k in furnishings, reno and electronics. even my xbox360, yamaha 5.1 receiver, big screen TV, etc etc. and why did i do that? coz i can.

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    of course u can do afford to gv discounts frm valuation price as u would still be making a handsome profit even after the discount (we r not 5yr olds). why dont u sell ur flat at $1k above ur original cost in playing ur part in helping to bring hdb prices in ur area down (as hdb val is based on past transactn). U cant and wont do that right? So stop talking cock here...
    Quote Originally Posted by gfoo
    lol. read my prev post.

    and yes, i did sell it less than valuation. on top of that, almost $100k in furnishings, reno and electronics. even my xbox360, yamaha 5.1 receiver, big screen TV, etc etc. and why did i do that? coz i can.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    What????? you expect hdb to sell you a flat at cost or near cost???? maybe if ur father is the MM, that may happen. In the 1980s, the average salaries of people was between $300 to $500 a month (not sure if you remember) and a flat costs merely a few tens of thousands to buy it. When society becomes more affluent, and people are earning averagely $2000 to $3000 now, do you still expect the govt to sell people 4 -rm flats at $30000?? If HDB flats are going for less than $100k now, nobody would be taking a loan and the banks will dry up. You forgot to mention inflation as a factor for the prices of flats to go up. It is simple logic, the plate of noodles that used to cost you $1 is now $4 at a food court, so do you still expect things to be priced as low as the 1980s? If you still consider $300k for a 4 rm hdb flat in a matured estate expensive, maybe the better solution for you would be to live in malaysia, with many kampong towns still around for you to buy cheap houses (even landed property)...
    hahahaha another joke!



    watever floats ur boat then~

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    What????? you expect hdb to sell you a flat at cost or near cost???? maybe if ur father is the MM, that may happen. ....:
    Yes i do, and you should too.
    HDB is public housing board not some money making company.

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    i know you miss the good old kampong days singapore had with everything going at dirt cheap price, but hello friend, singapore needs to progress lah.... public housing does not mean it should be cheapskate housing. You must recognise that our land is at a premium and we have only six hundred over square km of land to contend with (like it or not). with no natural disasters, no wars (not like the middle east), sound governance and a country touted as the number 1 living destination by expats, do you still expect hdb prices to crawl back to the 1980s? I think you got to be realistic. I am not pro-PAP and neither am I pro-WP, I am just looking at Singapore from the point of view of a global citizen.

    Quote Originally Posted by pete
    Yes i do, and you should too.
    HDB is public housing board not some money making company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by franzmark
    i know you miss the good old kampong days singapore had with everything going at dirt cheap price, but hello friend, singapore needs to progress lah.... public housing does not mean it should be cheapskate housing. You must recognise that our land is at a premium and we have only six hundred over square km of land to contend with (like it or not). with no natural disasters, no wars (not like the middle east), sound governance and a country touted as the number 1 living destination by expats, do you still expect hdb prices to crawl back to the 1980s? I think you got to be realistic. I am not pro-PAP and neither am I pro-WP, I am just looking at Singapore from the point of view of a global citizen.
    I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue, but I should point out that HDB flats are not for sale to foreigners; they are entirely the domain of Singapore citizens. In that regard, it's not subject so much to global forces, just local ones. The HDB's original masterplan was to help all Singaporeans own the roofs over their heads, and I must applaud them for being very successful in the initial years. However, in recent years, it is a fact that many Singaporeans can no longer afford the flats, or it takes too long for them to actually become "owners" of their flats. In many cases, young couples are taking out 30-year loans to pay for their flats.

    The comment earlier about housing prices versus food prices is inaccurate as well. Food prices have gone up because of inflation yes. Ingredients are more expensive, rent is higher, utilities too, so the prices of your cup of kopi and your bowl of fishball noodles must therefore rise to allow the hawkers to continue making a living. However, the cost of building HDB flats have not gone up in a manner such as to justify the rise in flat prices. HDB itself has moved away from its policy of pricing flats at a margin above cost, but instead, adopting a market price based on evaluation of apartment prices in the vicinity of the new flats. Such a pricing method is artificial because HDB doesn't have to pay market prices for its land, unlike private developers. The result is that HDB extracts a sizable profit from its developments; it enjoys cheap costs and also high prices engineered by private market forces. It has the best of both worlds in other words.

    I am not saying that is wrong in itself. Should the government go further to subsidise public housing so that more Singaporeans can afford their own homes (and bigger ones)? Or what? But what is a fact is that in either event, HDB prices currently are artificially high, and to point to private housing prices as a catalyst is disingenuous, because it is a conscious choice on the part of HDB to peg their prices accordingly. This is a question of public policy, not market forces.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by propertyguru
    I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue, but I should point out that HDB flats are not for sale to foreigners; they are entirely the domain of Singapore citizens. In that regard, it's not subject so much to global forces, just local ones. The HDB's original masterplan was to help all Singaporeans own the roofs over their heads, and I must applaud them for being very successful in the initial years. However, in recent years, it is a fact that many Singaporeans can no longer afford the flats, or it takes too long for them to actually become "owners" of their flats. In many cases, young couples are taking out 30-year loans to pay for their flats.

    The comment earlier about housing prices versus food prices is inaccurate as well. Food prices have gone up because of inflation yes. Ingredients are more expensive, rent is higher, utilities too, so the prices of your cup of kopi and your bowl of fishball noodles must therefore rise to allow the hawkers to continue making a living. However, the cost of building HDB flats have not gone up in a manner such as to justify the rise in flat prices. HDB itself has moved away from its policy of pricing flats at a margin above cost, but instead, adopting a market price based on evaluation of apartment prices in the vicinity of the new flats. Such a pricing method is artificial because HDB doesn't have to pay market prices for its land, unlike private developers. The result is that HDB extracts a sizable profit from its developments; it enjoys cheap costs and also high prices engineered by private market forces. It has the best of both worlds in other words.

    I am not saying that is wrong in itself. Should the government go further to subsidise public housing so that more Singaporeans can afford their own homes (and bigger ones)? Or what? But what is a fact is that in either event, HDB prices currently are artificially high, and to point to private housing prices as a catalyst is disingenuous, because it is a conscious choice on the part of HDB to peg their prices accordingly. This is a question of public policy, not market forces.
    such a policy has created an unsustainable debt bubble ~

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by august
    such a policy has created an unsustainable debt bubble ~
    I didn't say I agree with the policy ;-)

    Anyway, I am not sure the debt bubble is unsustainable. If it was, then surely in the throes of this recession, which many have dubbed the worst this century, it would have burst? More likely in my opinion, and perhaps just as pessimistically, a majority of the population will remain in debt for the better part of their working lives, with precious little savings to retire on.

    As it is, this is already happening, which is why the government recently introduced the reverse mortgage scheme. The fact that we need to have this scheme is a reflection that perhaps the HDB masterplan to help Singaporeans own their flats was not as resounding a success as the government would like us to believe. Unless the plan was merely restricted to help Singaporeans own their flats only during their lifetime, and not after :-P

    The little ironies of Singapore, to quote our own literary dissident, Catherine Lim.

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    Heard from the grapevine that HDB may be slowly moving towards the privatisation of HDB and to make the prices of HDB flats competible to the private, using private as a benchmark. The DBSS projects are just pioneering the govt's intention and eventually (i may not live to see that day), HDB will be 80% controlled by private developers working in partnership with the government. The current hdb valuation is based on the past transacted prices within the area and valuations in certain places have shown that HDB is very desired regardless of price to the singaporean or PR homebuyer. Meiling street, Kim Tian and certain parts of Bt Merah have seen HDB valuations going to as high as between $780000 to $840000 (I kid you not) for an Executive apartment and the valuation itself is already more than the price of some 3 bedroom condos. Why did the govt allow this trend without correcting prices? You can probably figure out the answer....

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