One Devonshire (D9, Freehold, Allgreen)

[eng00701]

I bet that a large number of One devenshire units will be returned shortly.

Returning unit
actually i very curious about the process of returning units. how much is lost if unit returned? to the best of my knowldge, 25% of booking fee if option not exercised. 23% if downpayment and stamp duty paid?

Units bought at different prices
for example what happens when units in same development are sold for very different prices by developer. for example, parc centennial when the developer marketed themselves, they sold 5 units to some clowns. then due to poor response, about few weeks later, they reduced prices by like 10-20% and passed over marketing to huttons and it was a sell-out. what about the 5 buyers who bought at a premium? martinplace 30 units were sold at average 1700 or 1800 mid last year. this year it was released at 1400 or 1500. will developer offer them discount?

[stalingrad]

I think you need to exercise the option before paying the stamp duty. After you exercise the option and pay the stamp duty, you are hooked for life. You can't just walk away.

So, to those speculators that swarm to one Davershire like termites to the light in our living room, think twice before you exercise the option.

[gfoo]

I think you need to exercise the option before paying the stamp duty. After you exercise the option and pay the stamp duty, you are hooked for life. You can't just walk away.

So, to those speculators that swarm to one Davershire like termites to the light in our living room, think twice before you exercise the option.

Once you exercise the option - even before stamp duty - the developer can enact civil proceedings to claim the balance and costs. You prob have a 10% chance of winning claiming temporary insanity and stuff. Once you pay up stamp duty, it's as good as a marriage

[stalingrad]

Once you exercise the option - even before stamp duty - the developer can enact civil proceedings to claim the balance and costs. You prob have a 10% chance of winning claiming temporary insanity and stuff. Once you pay up stamp duty, it's as good as a marriage

I do think those buyers that forked out 2k psf for one denvonshire in this economic climate and in the face of so many condos being completed and launched in the next two years, do have a chance to plead temporary insanity. How else can you explain their behavior?

[gfoo]

I do think those buyers that forked out 2k psf for one denvonshire in this economic climate and in the face of so many condos being completed and launched in the next two years, do have a chance to plead temporary insanity. How else can you explain their behavior?

I guess their other alternative is 'mental handicap'. Just take an IQ test and let the judge certify them as morons.

i brought some close ang mor frens (here in town for CMMA) to 3 areas: Killiney, Woodleigh and MBay on a tickle. Their reaction:

Killiney: 'Dude you said it's Orchard Road. This ain't orchard road. Why would anyone wanna pay US$1.5psf to be near a strip mall anyways?

Woodleigh: After they heard the area was an ex-cemetary, they begged me to drive off. After they heard it was going for US$600psf, i think one had hernia (intestines fell into his balls sac)

MBay: 'If this turns out to be a manhattan, it's cheap at US$1000psf. But it'll never be as good as the ol' US of A, you f@cking chink. God bless america'

[stalingrad]

I have always thought that singaporeans are crazy to be willing to pay the highest prices to live close to the most polluted and most crowded areas such as orchard road and river valley road. Take orchard turn for example. I wouldn't live there if they handed it to me for free let alone paying 3k to 4k to buy one.

that said, I cannot expect all singaporeans to be like me, preferring serenity to noise, and fresh air to diesel fume. but if you look at economic fundamentals, you would also conclude that the buyers of one devonshire are crazy. With so many condos waiting to be launched and completed in the next few years, where would they find the renters willing to pay 10k per month to justify their investments?

the only thing you can say is lemming mentality and kiasu. they would rather die than let a condo boom pass them by. morgan stanley says that singapore is over-built, meaning that there are too many condos already and too many to be built in the future for buyers at current price levels not to lose 40% to 50% in two to three years. I think that is entirely possible.

[eng00701]

I am more convinced than ever that rivergate will fall below 1k psf by the end of 2010. retal yields are falling like a rock. expats are leaving in droves. where are the fundamentals that will support the current price levels for D9 properties?

People are stupid, and tend to judge the reasonableness of current prices based on past price levels. They are too stupid to understand that the credit crisis was a game changer, and the prices for condo in D9 in 2007 and 2006 are a thing of the past and will not return for 10 or 20 years.

Human minds are defective, and that explains why One devenshire is selling like that hot cakes. When more and more condos are launched and rental yields keep falling, I bet one denvenshire will fall to 1k psf level too.

No need to rush, guys. just sit back and watch the stupid speculators burn, and burn in hell.

i am not trying to defend the 1 devon buyers but would think to say 1 devon will fall to 1k psf is abit over-exaggeration.

firstly hdb prices proven to be remarkably resilient even in the face of the financial crisis. one of the reasons is that hdb controls the supply and would not build if there is no demand.
assuming hdb prices remain stable, there is a limit to the price to which suburb condos will fall. suburbs condo developments will always be more ex than hdb. prices cannot fall too low as it will spur a surge in demand for those condos. if hdb cost 400psf, how can condos cost only 500psf?
by saying that a prime D condo drop to 1k psf, non-prime is at 400-600 psf? it cant be the case that 1 devon is 1k and clementi is 900psf. who on earth will buy clementi then.

secondly, developers also have their cost. they dun simpily inherit the land. they would have bought the land from government or en-bloc-ed it. there is also the material and construction cost. for the condos built in two years time, some of the land were bought at a premium price during boom and developers wouldnt sell unless a min price is met. although there is a large supply coming up, again it cant possibly depress prices so much. cost of land cannot drop drastically since there are only 2 main sources, buy from govenment or en-bloc. the government controls the price of land by not releasing until min bid is met. if you were the home owner, would u accept a dirt cheap quotation from developer?

i am not trying to say that the 1 devon buyers got a steal at 2k psf. maybe. nobody knows. maybe they over-paid by 20%. maybe more. but the point is if a global economic crisis which seemed to have no light at the end of the tunnel, only depressed property by 30%. it just doesnt make sense that a case of over-supply will crash the market and prices will drop 100% from 2k to 1k.

[stalingrad]

first of all, going from 2k to 1k psf is a drop of 50%, not 100%.

Second, your argument about HDB provides a floor for condos is true. but that also means condo prices represent a ceiling for HDB prices. When demand and supply for condos get out of whack, prices for condos will drop, dragging HDBp prices with it. this will happens no matter what the government does. It cannot unbuild HDB units by dynamiting them, can they?

Third, you said developers will refrain from selling when prices are low. that is true, and that is precisely what they did in the first quarter of this year. But can they hold the inventory forever? They cannot, because they incur a lot of cost holding the inventory. Thus, over the long run, it is demand that determines prices for condo, not developers' holding power.

Ultimately condo prices must be supported by rental yields. against the backdrop of dropping rental yields, prices of condo cannot go up. thus, I am convinced more than ever that 1k psf for one devonshire is entirely possible.

[jitkiat]

first of all, going from 2k to 1k psf is a drop of 50%, not 100%.

Second, your argument about HDB provides a floor for condos is true. but that also means condo prices represent a ceiling for HDB prices. When demand and supply for condos get out of whack, prices for condos will drop, dragging HDBp prices with it. this will happens no matter what the government does. It cannot unbuild HDB units by dynamiting them, can they?

Third, you said developers will refrain from selling when prices are low. that is true, and that is precisely what they did in the first quarter of this year. But can they hold the inventory forever? They cannot, because they incur a lot of cost holding the inventory. Thus, over the long run, it is demand that determines prices for condo, not developers' holding power.

Ultimately condo prices must be supported by rental yields. against the backdrop of dropping rental yields, prices of condo cannot go up. thus, I am convinced more than ever that 1k psf for one devonshire is entirely possible.

Everything is possible with a probability. If the probability is high, there will be people shorting SC Global, All Greens, Bukit Sembawang where biz is primarily in high end segment. Judging from the property stock prices, obviously the market does not attach a very high probability of another 50% property crash in Singapore. It is like the VIX option trader who makes a 800,000 USD leverage bet on VIX > 45 but below 55 in summer 2009, obviously he thinks the probability of that happening is very high. And VIX is now only 31.54 ... may be the option trader knows something real bad coming?

[stalingrad]

Everything is possible with a probability. If the probability is high, there will be people shorting SC Global, All Greens, Bukit Sembawang where biz is primarily in high end segment. Judging from the property stock prices, obviously the market does not attach a very high probability of another 50% property crash in Singapore. It is like the VIX option trader who makes a 800,000 USD leverage bet on VIX > 45 but below 55 in summer 2009, obviously he thinks the probability of that happening is very high.

the reasons that developers' share prices have corrected, but not crashed are many-fold, one of which is that there are so many "naive" buyers out there. In fact, I would even say that developers are toasting each other for the luck of having so many buyers suddenly appearing out of the woodwork. They were really worried early this year that they would go bankrupt.

But that doesn't mean that prices will not crash later on. and who will suffer the most when they do crash? not the developers. It will be the buyers.

[jitkiat]

the reasons that developers' share prices have corrected, but not crashed are many-fold, one of which is that there are so many "naive" buyers out there. In fact, I would even say that developers are toasting each other for the luck of having so many buyers suddenly appearing out of the woodwork. They were really worried early this year that they would go bankrupt.

But that doesn't mean that prices will not crash. and who will suffer the most if they do crash. not the developers. It will be the buyers.

What is so good about property developers going bust and SG properties going into deflation spiral? Singapore prosperity relies a lot on property developers taking business risk to build this nation. Singapore government has a stake directly or indirectly in these developers and will not wish to see them belly up. If buyers of One Devonshire think that they get a good deal at 2000psf, we have to thank them for drawing down the huge supply pile in this market segment. If another crisis strikes, at least we will not be in dire oversupply situations and less likely to fall into deadly deflation spiral.

[cheerful]

Well said .. this one >> ("HDB provides a floor for condos is true. but that also means condo prices represent a ceiling for HDB prices. When demand and supply for condos get out of whack, prices for condos will drop, dragging HDBp prices with it. this will happens no matter what the government does. It cannot unbuild HDB units by dynamiting them, can they? ... But can they hold the inventory forever? They cannot, because they incur a lot of cost holding the inventory. Thus, over the long run, it is demand that determines prices for condo, not developers' holding power. ")


The toasting part could be true, esp for some projects at marymount selling at tt kinda price! .... but speculators/investors should feel more pain bah (as compared to owner-occupiers) ...

the reasons that developers' share prices have corrected, but not crashed are many-fold, one of which is that there are so many "naive" buyers out there. In fact, I would even say that developers are toasting each other for the luck of having so many buyers suddenly appearing out of the woodwork. They were really worried early this year that they would go bankrupt.

But that doesn't mean that prices will not crash later on. and who will suffer the most when they do crash? not the developers. It will be the buyers.

[eng00701]

first of all, going from 2k to 1k psf is a drop of 50%, not 100%.

Second, your argument about HDB provides a floor for condos is true. but that also means condo prices represent a ceiling for HDB prices. When demand and supply for condos get out of whack, prices for condos will drop, dragging HDBp prices with it. this will happens no matter what the government does. It cannot unbuild HDB units by dynamiting them, can they?

Third, you said developers will refrain from selling when prices are low. that is true, and that is precisely what they did in the first quarter of this year. But can they hold the inventory forever? They cannot, because they incur a lot of cost holding the inventory. Thus, over the long run, it is demand that determines prices for condo, not developers' holding power.

Ultimately condo prices must be supported by rental yields. against the backdrop of dropping rental yields, prices of condo cannot go up. thus, I am convinced more than ever that 1k psf for one devonshire is entirely possible.

haha. i hate this. presenting our points and arguing over a forum does absolutely nothing to change real situation. i am no expert and will no pretend to be one. but anyway here goes.

hideous maths. my bad for the 100% thingy. made mistake by considering from other point. 1k to 2k is 100%.
my point is that there is a threshold for price drop. while government cant dynamite buildings, they are not entirely helpless either.
singapore is not a place with infinite land. the min cost of a development will be the land cost and construction cost which should remain stable within a range. unless the developer can make a profit after factoring in all these, there would no longer be anymore supply since it makes no sense for them to build. if hdb deems there is a over-supply they could just stop construction. stemming the over-supply. the fact that new hdb developments are still selling well at these prices show that there is a demand for stay rather than investment.

if i were a hdb deweller, when condos drop to a certain level, i will surely consider buying. the suburb condos will see a rise in interest as seen in developments like mi casa and arte. this will provide a buffer for the price drop of condos.

while i am not saying that projects being released now have a good chance of de-valuing, it just does not seem logical that it will drop beyond the worst of the recent crisis

[stalingrad]

What is so good about property developers going bust and SG properties going into deflation spiral? Singapore prosperity relies a lot on property developers taking business risk to build this nation. Singapore government has a stake directly or indirectly in these developers and will not wish to see them belly up. If buyers of One Devonshire thinks that they get a good deal at 2000psf, we have to thank them for drawing down the huge supply pile in this market segment. If another crisis strikes, at least we will not be in dire oversupply situations and will not fall into deadly deflation spiral.

I am not wishing for singapore to go into a deflationary spiral. In fact, I am not wishing for anything bad for singapore at all. don't talk like I am a traitor. but what one hope and one thinks will happen are entirely different matters.

While I wish singapore and condo buyers well, I firmly believe that too many people are fooled by the lull in the financial storm that is just unfolding. these guys that jumped the guns are going to suffer tremendously when the storm regains its strength and hits us again.

[jitkiat]

I am not wishing for singapore to go into a deflationary spiral. In fact, I am not wishing for anything bad for singapore at all. don't talk like I am a traitor. but what one hope and one thinks will happen are entirely different matters.

While I wish singapore and condo buyers well, I firmly believe that too many people are fooled by the lull in the financial storm that is just unfolding. these guys that jumped the guns are going to suffer tremendously when the storm regains its strength and hits us again.

Hmm .. may be we should ask Property_Owner and Alexis why they are buying up so many condos. These people are certainly not fools. And I don't think they will suffer tremendously when the storm regains its strength.

[stalingrad]

Hmm .. may be we should ask Property_Owner and Alexis why they are buying up so many condos. These people are certainly not fools. And I don't think they will suffer tremendously when the storm regains its strength.

you are not a naive person, given that you know about VIX. but what is tremendously? if these Alexis buyers lose just 20%, that would be a complete wipe out for them. I don't need to remind you that they finance the other 80% with bank loans.

[jitkiat]

you are not a naive person, given that you know about VIX. but what is tremendously? if these Alexis buyers lose just 20%, that would be a complete wipe out for them. I don't need to remind you that they finance the other 80% with bank loans.

Sorry, Alexis refers to a forumer who bought many condo units including Alexis project. What I really mean is that are you sure that those who invested in these projects are not rich and smart? Because you talked like people who buy properties now are all fools cheated by property developers.

[爱屋及乌]

what is your stake and what is your defination of "large number" , e.g 20% or 50% and "shortly" , e.g within 3 , 6 or 9 months ...?

I bet that a large number of One devenshire units will be returned shortly.

[denverusa]

i heard there are many professionals and businessmen bought one devon without loans . so i presume they know what they are doing so we shd not be worrying abt them !

[KT_Lim]

people have a choice with their financial management. maybe they are fools to jump into the property bangwagon. but what's with all this cursing abt fools and morons? I would think if ur so smart, u would not be spending time here making small chat, would u? end of the day, its people's monies and u just sound like a sour grape!

you are not a naive person, given that you know about VIX. but what is tremendously? if these Alexis buyers lose just 20%, that would be a complete wipe out for them. I don't need to remind you that they finance the other 80% with bank loans.

[bargain hunter]

afterall, one devonshire units are efficient (all bedrooms able to fit in a queen sized bed) despite not big and luxurious sized, so understandably, the psf is high. but if you compare say high floor 4 bedrooms at martin place 1894 sq ft at 1550psf (2.93m) and 4 bedroom 1603 sq ft at 1750psf (2.8m) at one devonshire, one devonshire units are actually "cheaper" in absolute quantum despite higher psf and better location. the same applies for the 2 and 3 bedrooms (even if not cheaper quantum is at least similar). that probably explains the rationale behind why people are snapping up the units at close to 2k psf. At this moment, the buyers are not of the opinion that they are buying something overvalued, so why should they not exercise their options? down the road, if the property market turns down again, just too bad for them, but had they bought a ppty elsewhere, it would fall as much as well anyway.

[eng00701]

afterall, one devonshire units are efficient (all bedrooms able to fit in a queen sized bed) despite not big and luxurious sized, so understandably, the psf is high. but if you compare say high floor 4 bedrooms at martin place 1894 sq ft at 1550psf (2.93m) and 4 bedroom 1603 sq ft at 1750psf (2.8m) at one devonshire, one devonshire units are actually "cheaper" in absolute quantum despite higher psf and better location. the same applies for the 2 and 3 bedrooms (even if not cheaper quantum is at least similar). that probably explains the rationale behind why people are snapping up the units at close to 2k psf. At this moment, the buyers are not of the opinion that they are buying something overvalued, so why should they not exercise their options? down the road, if the property market turns down again, just too bad for them, but had they bought a ppty elsewhere, it would fall as much as well anyway.

not too sure about figures for martinplace. apparently straits time quotes martinplace as being sold at a median price of $1423 psf. 1750 psf for 1 devon would be preview price of a mid floor unit.

[bargain hunter]

i did get quotes for both martin place and one devonshire. a mid 20s floor for 4 bedder, i was quoted 1750psf at one devonshire and 1550psf for martin place for IAS scheme. Non NPS less another 2% for both.

not too sure about figures for martinplace. apparently straits time quotes martinplace as being sold at a median price of $1423 psf. 1750 psf for 1 devon would be preview price of a mid floor unit.

[bargain hunter]

Latest update from BT today:

Over at Devonshire Road, Allgreen Properties sold 130 units last week at One Devonshire, a 36-storey freehold condo with a total 152 units.
The average price of the units sold is understood to be $1,800 psf, assuming a normal progress payment scheme.
Allgreen is charging buyers a 2 per cent price premium for IAS. For those who opt for the deferred payment scheme, the price premium is 3 per cent.
Around 65 per cent of the 130 buyers have opted for normal progress payment. Knight Frank is marketing the development.

[mr funny]

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/...38787,00.html?

Published June 23, 2009

New projects enjoy strong weekend sales

8@ Woodleigh drew mostly S'poreans, specu-vestors due to its location

By KALPANA RASHIWALA


(SINGAPORE) There seems to be no let-up in home sales.


Selling like hotcakes: 302 of the total 330 units in the 8@ Woodleigh condo were sold between Friday and Sunday. The average price of the 99-year leasehold project near Potong Pasir MRT Station is about $780 per square foot


The Gale: A Facebook page for Tripartite Developers' project will be launched to help market it. It is expected to be launched to the public in July

Frasers Centrepoint is said to have sold 302 of the total 330 units in its 8@Woodleigh condo since Friday. The average price of the 99-year leasehold project near Potong Pasir MRT Station is about $780 per square foot. Buyers who opt for an interest absorption scheme (IAS) offered by the developer have to pay 3 per cent more.

The 15-storey development comprises five blocks. About 40 per cent of the units are studios, two-bedders as well as apartments with two-bedrooms plus study. The remaining 60 per cent are three- and four-bedders.

The average price of a studio unit is around $400,000 while a two-bedder typically costs between $650,000 and $670,000.

The project drew mostly Singaporean buyers. In addition to attracting those who bought units for their own occupation, the project is said to have drawn a fair bit of specu-vestors.

8@Woodleigh's location next to the future Stamford American International School gives it a strong investment appeal.

'Some people bought with a view to leasing the units to expat families (for the bigger units) or to the single teachers at the school (for studios and two-bedders),' a market watcher said.

The project is being marketed by DTZ and ERA.

Over at Devonshire Road, Allgreen Properties sold 130 units last week at One Devonshire, a 36-storey freehold condo with a total 152 units.

The average price of the units sold is understood to be $1,800 psf, assuming a normal progress payment scheme.

Allgreen is charging buyers a 2 per cent price premium for IAS. For those who opt for the deferred payment scheme, the price premium is 3 per cent.

Around 65 per cent of the 130 buyers have opted for normal progress payment. Knight Frank is marketing the development.

Chip Eng Seng group's Oasis @ Elias condo is expected to be released soon, as early as this week. The 99-year project has a total 388 units and should give some competition to City Developments' Livia condo nearby.

Over at Flora Road, in the Upper Changi area, Tripartite Developers is getting ready to launch its freehold condo, The Gale. A Facebook page for the project will be launched to help market the project.

The Gale comprises 329 units in nine blocks. The eight-storey project has a range of unit sizes, from one-bedders to four-bedroom apartments with a roof terrace.

Buyers will have the option of signing up for IAS. Buyers and current owners of a Tripartite property will enjoy a loyalty bonus (a 0.5 per cent price discount) if they buy a unit at The Gale, and a referral fee (0.5 per cent of purchase price) if they get a friend or family member to buy a unit in the condo.

Tripartite is a joint venture involving Hong Leong Holdings, City Developments and TID Pte Ltd. Hong Leong Holdings, which issued a press statement on the project yesterday, did not give an indication of pricing. 'The project is expected to be launched to the public in July,' it added.

[bargain hunter]

From The Edge,


http://www.theedgesingapore.com/comp...try-cover.html

[panamera]

people have a choice with their financial management. maybe they are fools to jump into the property bangwagon. but what's with all this cursing abt fools and morons? I would think if ur so smart, u would not be spending time here making small chat, would u? end of the day, its people's monies and u just sound like a sour grape!

Well said.. Most forumers have a vested agenda here. My guess most are waiting to buy. Sellers just get the agent to market at their asking price.

Home owners probably are at reno forums figuring out how to do up their place.

That leaves the bulk as buyers, who are trying to talk down prices so that they can buy at the low and are worried that the low has passed on hindsight.

Some are probably trying to upgrade themselves from the Carabelle to District 9 on the cheap.

[nobrainer32007]

Exactly!

Some missed the boat totally and some scared to miss the boat hence kao pek kao bu here

Well said.. Most forumers have a vested agenda here. My guess most are waiting to buy. Sellers just get the agent to market at their asking price.

Home owners probably are at reno forums figuring out how to do up their place.

That leaves the bulk as buyers, who are trying to talk down prices so that they can buy at the low and are worried that the low has passed on hindsight.

Some are probably trying to upgrade themselves from the Carabelle to District 9 on the cheap.

[gfoo]

You forgot one more category - those ma long long chee siow chia pa bo sai pangs like me

[Property_Owner]

Well said.. Most forumers have a vested agenda here. My guess most are waiting to buy. Sellers just get the agent to market at their asking price.

Home owners probably are at reno forums figuring out how to do up their place.

That leaves the bulk as buyers, who are trying to talk down prices so that they can buy at the low and are worried that the low has passed on hindsight.

Some are probably trying to upgrade themselves from the Carabelle to District 9 on the cheap.

Don't have to talk to bring down the price. It will happen. As it always had. What goes up will come down. What came down will goes up. It's a cycle. Be it properties or stocks. It's about judgement and timimg, goes in at the wrong time end up a loser. Who dares wins!