The Raintree (D21, 99 years leasehold, Frasers Centrepoint)

[Unregistered]

Heard from my agent that she has just sold a rail facing unit on 4th floor for about 720k

So if your current highest offer was for 718k for 3rd floor, that should be about right? Higher floors above 5th storey being offered 750k logically should then be within reason too I believe... that is judging from an actual sale of 4th floor and your offer from a genuine buyer for 3rd floor at 718k?

[Unregistered]

By looking thru the ad in ST on property lately, it becomes evident that the market is in sort of chaotic state, at least for many older developments. It is common sight this day to see asking price for property shot up by a big margin in comparing to just three to four months ago, but what is really strange here is that asking price for different units in the same development could differ by as much as 150 psf (I am indeed referring to mass condo projects with average selling price less than a million). Even conisder differencees in facing and high Vs low floor scenario, this is something quite extra ordinary. By speaking to some agents, it is indeed quite clear that many owners demand to have their property listed at a very unreasonable price. In an orderly and rationale market, it is typical to list a property at or slighly above bank valuation, but many owners did not even want to know/care what the bank valuation is for their property. When I called up one agent to ask him about the bank valuation for the unit he listed, he admitted to me that it is about 150K about valuation.

I am also concerned about the argument of cheap price of property in singapore in comparison to other major city such as HK. Majority of mass condo projects (less than 1.5 million purchase price) historically will only provide you a rental yield of 4-4.5%. Since FH property is generally 25% more expensive on PSF basis, the yield could easily drop to 2.5-3%. The rental yield has significantly risen since last year, but the price of property has risen in tandem in the last few months. In fact, there is sign that rental yield has since stabilized and some units had even reduced the asking price (persumable could not find tenants after months). With this scenario developing, the rental yield for most of the property remain more or less the same as two years ago. In HK, it is rather easy to fetch 6% rental yield for mass condo project. If you agree that rental yield is the most common bench mark in the world to guage the invetment quality of a property, perhaps we should not be over optimistic to think that there is a long way to go for property in Singapore to catch up to that of HK.

Thanks for the good points raise! Interesting discussions here.

For RT though, I don't think there's even a need to do comparisions with HK & other cities. It is just within Singapore market itself, it has some catching up to do already. That is taking into account the list price of other development units during reasonably good times and current so called "boom" time. Which in my opinion, while it may be "boom" time for selected districts in Singapore, for district 21, it is more like "recovery" at this stage. That is judging from the price of other properties that had been capable of recovery, like Southhaven & Springdale, which had returned to its first launched price of the the past. Take 20-30% off those and we have in fact a pretty realistic idea of the value of a brand new leasehold property like RT in this locality. 700k plus plus for 3 rm would & should then seem quite reasonable, at least for now whle the property is still new!

[Unregistered]

Certainly, for high end projects, it is difficult to use any kind of rationale to predict future trends as folks who can afford this sort of projects are not ordinary investors concerning about rental yields as much. In fact, the asking price for high to ultra high end projects in both HK and SInagpore have been rising steadily for the last few yrs and developers are scrambling to secure as many en bloc lands as possible in prime district as these projects can sometime bypass certain standard scrutiny in making an investment decision. However, I doubt the price of high end condo can keep climbing like HK. If you have been to HK, you would be able to tell the incredible view many of these expensive condos or villa can offer. Many places in HL offer truly spectacular views of mountain, city, sea and someimes even islands all at once which I don't think Singapore can beat that.

All these hype generated from the IR. There is certainly a buzz going around.
People all around the world are taking notice at this part of the world - tiny red dot. We are re-making Singapore. Sound fundamentals-politically stable, safe, booming economy, F1, IR are creating all round optimism.
Where would you park your $$? Here of course....
We may not be like HK.....but we hv our own niche. Uniquely Singapore.

[Unregistered]

So if your current highest offer was for 718k for 3rd floor, that should be about right? Higher floors above 5th storey being offered 750k logically should then be within reason too I believe... that is judging from an actual sale of 4th floor and your offer from a genuine buyer for 3rd floor at 718k?

Number 4 is not a lucky number. No wonder the owner is quick to sell.
I will still hold at 580psf or $736k. However, i am in 2 minds.
Even at 580psf, i may still be unwilling to sell.
Comparing to Casa Merah which is selling abover 600psf to 700psf, why we do want to shortchange ourselves.

RT is a quality development and offers value for money even at 580psf.
There are many positives:
- This area can command high rental.
- At 1270sf, the unit is actually spacious.
- Near to amenities
- Near to top schools (from Primary to secondary to NUS)
- future downtown line (not too far away in 2015)
- rustic railway sound
- Fresh air
- tranquility (unlike SH, springdale, LW which is near to the road and perpetual noise)
- No bad traffic jams like those near hillviews
- Near Bukit timah hill
- Near PIE, BKE

[Unregistered]

dun be fooled by agents quoting high prices just to get the marketing rights for your property.

If the demand is there, you can sell it yourself and avert the 2%. I sold mine within a week of putting up my own ad. Save myself some good money....would rather pamper myself then feed the vultures

unless you have problems getting the price you want or selling the unit, otherwise RT is quite seller in itself. Should be able to secure 30% capital gain

What are the admin involved when selling a private property? I heard it is more complicated.
Is it as easy as selling HDB flats? If so, i may also want to save the 2% commission fee. Not sure what the agent can value add besides marketing?

[Unregistered]

Not just RT only. Many other properties can be bought much cheaper 1 year ago. City square is now selling $400k above its soft launch prices. Haha.....i just missed the boat then.
However, the prices are still lower than the 1996 level.
Also as compared to HK and other cities, the prices in Singapore have a long catch up to do.

The speculative market is still at an early stage or only a tiny bubble is formed. stock index keeps hitting new record high.
There is a general believe that the property market would breach the 1996 level.
In 1996, the HK ppl came to buy into property too due to uncertainty of the handover to china. This add on to the already huge demand and thus the buying frenzy. A mass market condo can go up to $900k to $1mil.
This time, the demand came from all over the world. So the possibility is there. But you can trust the gov to act before bubble burst.

[Unregistered]

Thanks for the good points raise! Interesting discussions here.

For RT though, I don't think there's even a need to do comparisions with HK & other cities. It is just within Singapore market itself, it has some catching up to do already. That is taking into account the list price of other development units during reasonably good times and current so called "boom" time. Which in my opinion, while it may be "boom" time for selected districts in Singapore, for district 21, it is more like "recovery" at this stage. That is judging from the price of other properties that had been capable of recovery, like Southhaven & Springdale, which had returned to its first launched price of the the past. Take 20-30% off those and we have in fact a pretty realistic idea of the value of a brand new leasehold property like RT in this locality. 700k plus plus for 3 rm would & should then seem quite reasonable, at least for now whle the property is still new!

Upper Bukit Timah area actually have far more FH than leashold condos, thanks to the govt initiative of relocating factories in that area and property boom in the 90s. Lately, the ad in ST gave the impression that all the condos in that area have more or less back to the same price levels in the 90s. Is it real? can property prices in that area recover in just few short months? I am sure there will be units transacted at high price levels, but we shall wait till the end of the year to look at total number tranacted and average psf price before passing judgement on the actual scale of the recovery.

I am sure looking at the tranacted price of RT units would encourage many owners in that area such as sounthhaven II and springdale to ask for ever increasing price for their units since RT is only a leashold project. I hope as times go on, this uniquely Singapore phenomenon will slowly go away. Hope recent encloc deals in FH Vs leashold in similar areas will convince locals that buying property is about location. It is rather silly to pay 30% more because it is a FH property. RT stands out in terms of location and I really don't think most of the FH condos in that area share that quality.

[Unregistered]

Upper Bukit Timah area actually have far more FH than leashold condos, thanks to the govt initiative of relocating factories in that area and property boom in the 90s. Lately, the ad in ST gave the impression that all the condos in that area have more or less back to the same price levels in the 90s. Is it real? can property prices in that area recover in just few short months? I am sure there will be units transacted at high price levels, but we shall wait till the end of the year to look at total number tranacted and average psf price before passing judgement on the actual scale of the recovery.

I am sure looking at the tranacted price of RT units would encourage many owners in that area such as sounthhaven II and springdale to ask for ever increasing price for their units since RT is only a leashold project. I hope as times go on, this uniquely Singapore phenomenon will slowly go away. Hope recent encloc deals in FH Vs leashold in similar areas will convince locals that buying property is about location. It is rather silly to pay 30% more because it is a FH property. RT stands out in terms of location and I really don't think most of the FH condos in that area share that quality.

Agree on that point on location. Personallyfeel that with RT's location to be used as condo quite a waste! Would have been an idyllic getaway commercial facilioties like spa & aesthetics treatment/ recovery centre! Not that I am complaining, being an RT owner who's greatly looking forward to its unique surrounding qualities as a home!

[ht]

What are the admin involved when selling a private property? I heard it is more complicated.
Is it as easy as selling HDB flats? If so, i may also want to save the 2% commission fee. Not sure what the agent can value add besides marketing?

I have no experience at all, even selling HDB, but managed to do it after asking around.

I first surveyed the prices and decided on what I want to sell for (give room for negotiation), and then put up an ad to gauge the responses. Once I have some calls and ascertained that I am about to close a deal, I called the law firm that handled my RT purchase for advice. I have them handle my sale as well.

Basically, you need an offer to purchase form (the law firm can help you draft if your are letting them handle your sale), so that you can receive the 1% when you have met and agreed the price with the buyer.

You have to advise the buyer to get a solicitor to manage his/her purchase, whom will also help them to exercise the option within, typically, 2 weeks, with a payment of another 4%.

The rest the law firms of both parties will handle.

Personally, I feel that the agent is only relevant, if you have problem marketing your unit (RT?? no prob), or secure the price you want. If you think that you can do both by talking to a few people on the phone, negotiating, that is 2% savings !!

Well, it is up to you, some may still think it's too much trouble.

[Unregistered]

I have no experience at all, even selling HDB, but managed to do it after asking around.

I first surveyed the prices and decided on what I want to sell for (give room for negotiation), and then put up an ad to gauge the responses. Once I have some calls and ascertained that I am about to close a deal, I called the law firm that handled my RT purchase for advice. I have them handle my sale as well.

Basically, you need an offer to purchase form (the law firm can help you draft if your are letting them handle your sale), so that you can receive the 1% when you have met and agreed the price with the buyer.

You have to advise the buyer to get a solicitor to manage his/her purchase, whom will also help them to exercise the option within, typically, 2 weeks, with a payment of another 4%.

The rest the law firms of both parties will handle.

Personally, I feel that the agent is only relevant, if you have problem marketing your unit (RT?? no prob), or secure the price you want. If you think that you can do both by talking to a few people on the phone, negotiating, that is 2% savings !!

Well, it is up to you, some may still think it's too much trouble.

It is similar to HDB. But I think HDB should be more reliable, cheaper and efficient.
I went thru the whole process by just signing a few templates forms and couple of hundreds $$.
Lawyers' fees nowadays are 0.4% of the selling prices?? This was the rate quoted and by the bank's recommended lawyer.

[Kev]

Hi all,
How do u find the external paint work for RT?
I thot the color match can be better. Woody, rustic theme?
I prefer a darker color than the white on the windows frame and on surrounding unit.

Any comment??
Maybe it is not the finished article yet.
Is there a second coating?

[DIY]

actually all you need is a template option form and a lawyer, and you can be your own agent to sell your own property.

[Unregistered]

Hi all,
How do u find the external paint work for RT?
I thot the color match can be better. Woody, rustic theme?
I prefer a darker color than the white on the windows frame and on surrounding unit.

Any comment??
Maybe it is not the finished article yet.
Is there a second coating?

Have not been there for a while. Any pics?

[Unregistered]

You must be kidding me! Rustic railway sound??? More like deafening and ear-splitting!

[QUOTE=Unregistered]
RT is a quality development and offers value for money even at 580psf.
There are many positives:
- rustic railway sound

[Unregistered]

Hi all,
How do u find the external paint work for RT?
I thot the color match can be better. Woody, rustic theme?
I prefer a darker color than the white on the windows frame and on surrounding unit.

Any comment??
Maybe it is not the finished article yet.
Is there a second coating?

yes , i heard it's salmon pink or something strange , haven't seen ot myself . I wish they would always go for neutral beige , cream types of colour. Let's hope its not the final colour . Anyway we can appeal to have it changed to something neutral ???

[ht]

actually all you need is a template option form and a lawyer, and you can be your own agent to sell your own property.

spot on DIY !!

ST's money section reported substantial increase in property agents over the last few months. Good and easy money to be made.

[Unregistered]

Have not been there for a while. Any pics?

No pic. Although it looks ok, it can be better.
Also, i thot the original color scheme is light green.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE=Unregistered]You must be kidding me! Rustic railway sound??? More like deafening and ear-splitting!

RT is a quality development and offers value for money even at 580psf.
There are many positives:
- rustic railway sound

Gone in 10 seconds.

[Unregistered]

A friend who bought a unit at ~$440psf when it was launched 2 yrs ago just sold it for $580psf.

Guess it's reasonable to say that RT has appreciated at least 30% compared to initial launch prices.

[ht]

A friend who bought a unit at ~$440psf when it was launched 2 yrs ago just sold it for $580psf.

Guess it's reasonable to say that RT has appreciated at least 30% compared to initial launch prices.

rail facing unit? if true, he has gotten a pretty good price, i must say...

[Unregistered]

A friend who bought a unit at ~$440psf when it was launched 2 yrs ago just sold it for $580psf.

Guess it's reasonable to say that RT has appreciated at least 30% compared to initial launch prices.

Even though it has appreciated, it is still reasonable at 580psf for its unique environment. It may test the support at $600psf nearing TOP.
In comparison to gardenvista and casa merah, this is a bargain.
Besides the Pearl @ Mount Faber, where else can u get a development in the hill at such price?

[Unregistered]

Even though it has appreciated, it is still reasonable at 580psf for its unique environment. It may test the support at $600psf nearing TOP.
In comparison to gardenvista and casa merah, this is a bargain.
Besides the Pearl @ Mount Faber, where else can u get a development in the hill at such price?

The last remaining units facing the pool were already sold at ~$650psf by FCL.

FYI, a unit at The Pearl@Mt Faber (also 99yr) sold for ~$1000psf recently.

Considering market demand, I wud say that nearing TOP, rail facing units can easily ask for ~$620-650psf... while the better facing ones (greenery and pool) can easily ask for $720psf upwards.

A plus point is RT will be ready latest by early next yr when a lot of the other new developments which were launched in the past yr won't hit the market till late 2009/2010. This property boom has caused a big crunch on resources. New development launched this yr wont see them ready until the "official" TOP date. You'll notice that a lot of sold out development haven't even started work yet.

Currently, there's a very high demand for new ready units.... this trend will continue into 2009/2010. Expect a big influx of foreigners nearing the opening of the 2 IRs. Also more and more MNCs are setting up shops here.

Hold on guys.... all signs say we are going higher....

[Unregistered]

Thought I share this with you......

I was at the reserve with some expat friends yesterday. I showed them RT. They were very impressed with the location. Two of them are now renting along Bukit Timah. Paying $4K+ rent for a 3-bedder. To my surprise, they said they are most willing to pay more (one mentioned maybe $5K) for a 3-bedder in RT as they said the environment alone can command a very high premium. They really liked what they saw. So I told them that I will be most willing to rent them my unit when it's ready Hmmmm....

RT is surely a jewel yet to be discovered by many.

[Unregistered]

Thought I share this with you......

I was at the reserve with some expat friends yesterday. I showed them RT. They were very impressed with the location. Two of them are now renting along Bukit Timah. Paying $4K+ rent for a 3-bedder. To my surprise, they said they are most willing to pay more (one mentioned maybe $5K) for a 3-bedder in RT as they said the environment alone can command a very high premium. They really liked what they saw. So I told them that I will be most willing to rent them my unit when it's ready Hmmmm....

RT is surely a jewel yet to be discovered by many.

As an agent, I can tell you that more and more people are wanting to buy than rent. Their argument is - if they are to pay so high rents, must as well pay towards own's home. I used to do a lot of rentals. There weren't enough supply to meet demand so it's quite frustrating for agents like me. Now am doing more buying/selling. Again, we have sellers asking for the sky. Buyers are still hoping prices will be more reasonable. So the game goes on. So you see it ain't easy making a living in this so-called property boom!

[Unregistered]

Thought I share this with you......

I was at the reserve with some expat friends yesterday. I showed them RT. They were very impressed with the location. Two of them are now renting along Bukit Timah. Paying $4K+ rent for a 3-bedder. To my surprise, they said they are most willing to pay more (one mentioned maybe $5K) for a 3-bedder in RT as they said the environment alone can command a very high premium. They really liked what they saw. So I told them that I will be most willing to rent them my unit when it's ready Hmmmm....

RT is surely a jewel yet to be discovered by many.

I am surprised that they are willing to pay $4k+ in rent for BT area.
$3.5k-4k can get you condo places like meraprime right next to tiong bahru MRT very near to Orchard rd.
Yup.....Might as well they buy rather rent.

[Unregistered]

I am surprised that they are willing to pay $4k+ in rent for BT area.
$3.5k-4k can get you condo places like meraprime right next to tiong bahru MRT very near to Orchard rd.
Yup.....Might as well they buy rather rent.

Different things appeal to different people. Some like to be in the centre of activities, some like quiet and peace, so a serene nature reserve would be more appealing to them...

[Unregistered]

The last remaining units facing the pool were already sold at ~$650psf by FCL.

FYI, a unit at The Pearl@Mt Faber (also 99yr) sold for ~$1000psf recently.

Considering market demand, I wud say that nearing TOP, rail facing units can easily ask for ~$620-650psf... while the better facing ones (greenery and pool) can easily ask for $720psf upwards.

A plus point is RT will be ready latest by early next yr when a lot of the other new developments which were launched in the past yr won't hit the market till late 2009/2010. This property boom has caused a big crunch on resources. New development launched this yr wont see them ready until the "official" TOP date. You'll notice that a lot of sold out development haven't even started work yet.

Currently, there's a very high demand for new ready units.... this trend will continue into 2009/2010. Expect a big influx of foreigners nearing the opening of the 2 IRs. Also more and more MNCs are setting up shops here.

Hold on guys.... all signs say we are going higher....

How is it that the prices can reach $620-650psf nearing TOP? So optimistic??
However, I think RT is lagging behind other recent developments.
Wah......just asked about the new launch northwood which was sold out.
Prices for 3-bed room is $800k. Casa merah is also at $780k-$800k+.
Even further away in terms of location. Yishun and Tanah Merah are far north and far east respectively.

Maybe it is all about the recent advertising?? ppl are not so aware of RT.

[Unregistered]

The difference is that Yishun and Tanah Merah condos are nearer to the HDB heartlands, where the upgraders most likely come from. Everyone knows that these upgraders will want to live near their parents (who presumable will still be living in their old HDB estates).

The Raintree in Upper Bukit Timah is not really marketed and positioned as an upgrader project, and is located not near any HDB heartland.

This could account for the lack of exposure and demand among this upgrader price segment in the market.

[Unregistered]

Different things appeal to different people. Some like to be in the centre of activities, some like quiet and peace, so a serene nature reserve would be more appealing to them...

In addition, some would also prefer new development.
They would prefer everything new to 2nd hand and old.
So new TOP like RT, would fetch higher premium in rental in the initial years.

Seriously, having seen many rented condo, their conditions are pathetic.

[Unregistered]

What is your favourite raintree(s)? I like raintrees on Upper Thomson Road towards Sembawang and also on ECP towards the airport. They provide shelter on the road, making the surrounding cool and majestic. Hopefully thats true for The Raintree Condo providing us with a comfortable home for all of us.