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Thread: Reflections at Keppel Bay (D4, 99 Years, Keppel Land)

  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangeroad80
    It's depends what you are comparing Reflections with .... if you compare it with The Marq at Patterson, The Orchard Residences and Sentosa cove, Reflections is considered cheap. If you compare it with HDB & BTOs, yes you will find it very expensive. It's relative, depending on what category of ppl buying it.

    If you still can find 1.4m or below unit in reflections, golf facing, please pm me, I want to buy. I am serious.
    The location of Reflections is very special. It is located at the Southern-most part of this entire huge piece of continent from Russia to China to Vietnam to Thailand to Malaysia to Singapore ... and Reflections is right at the Southern-most tip.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by reuters
    The location of Reflections is very special. It is located at the Southern-most part of this entire huge piece of continent from Russia to China to Vietnam to Thailand to Malaysia to Singapore ... and Reflections is right at the Southern-most tip.
    I tot that would be Sentosa Cove?

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by reuters
    The location of Reflections is very special. It is located at the Southern-most part of this entire huge piece of continent from Russia to China to Vietnam to Thailand to Malaysia to Singapore ... and Reflections is right at the Southern-most tip.
    Not really. Malaysia's JB would be the one. The water separating Malaysia and Singapore is a sea and not a river. Singapore is an island

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan0503
    Not really. Malaysia's JB would be the one. The water separating Malaysia and Singapore is a sea and not a river. Singapore is an island
    Haha... that is true.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heng
    At launch price of $1.2m, even with high holding costs of at least $10k a year, the 2 bedroom unit is attractive to hold on to, even if left vacant.

    I believe the high maintenance of close to $500 a month and property taxes will mean a loss of about $1,000 for every month the unit is not rented out.

    Like those whose caveats were lodged in 2011, I too thought that $1.4 m was reasonable based on photos I have seen , brochure descriptions, etc.

    Till I saw disappointment on the faces after collection of keys.....

    Actual vs Perceived.....Room sizes very much smaller than expected...

    Hot afternoon sun streaming in.... Views of other units blocking whatever sea view, etc....

    CONSOLATION : A pillar large enough to vent all frustrations after paying a premium price to the first owner fortunate enough to sell out before TOP or before getting keys and the reality hits home.....

    THUS it is always more prudent to view actual unit before buying ......
    Appreciate your true comment on the project. I think as an investment it is still a potential there.

  6. #606
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    Default 2,779 units for Sale & Rent ( In property Guru )

    Quote Originally Posted by orangeroad80

    find 1.4m or below unit in reflections, golf facing, please pm me, I want to buy. I am serious.
    Need your contact number or else you can contact agents in property guru ""2779 units for Sale & Rent ""


    The agents are only too happy to see you and conduct viewings while discussing prices.......

    That was how I got to view some of the units that were subsequently caveated at less than $1.4m... during the boom times last year ( before ABSD kicks in ).....

    Now will consider buying only if less than $1.4m ....since unlikely to have capital appreciation in the near term..... difficult to subsale when there are still close to 300 units unsold by developer

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heng
    Need your contact number or else you can contact agents in property guru ""2779 units for Sale & Rent ""

    As there are only 1100 units, this is a prime candidate for a short squeeze.
    Though I suspect the real answer are there are not 2779 units for sale and rent.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/bu...pagewanted=all

    As one of the earlier posters said, there may be a lot of vested interest on this thread. Similar to Caribbean, Sail, Rivergate and a few others before.

    Heng, you displayed amazing knowledge of the units (or in any case, more than me and this is the only development I have had any real interest in as I have thought Singapore property a lukewarm investment since 2010) yet you seemed surprised by some units having sun streaming in.

    I though this was true of all properties with a large window facing west. Is this development worse than others, or are facings something you don't pay much attention to, or did I get the wrong impression from your post?

    You also noted that room sizes are deceivingly small ...was this was not apparent from the floor plan, or was the floor plan misleading?

    You also mentioned units blocking each other's views. I though it would be pretty clear from the plan and scale models which units have the views and which do not. I'd be similarly surprised if a Sail owner could not tell the difference between a car park view and a sea view.

    I'm curious, because its seems odd to imagine someone being surprised by any of the above.

    The things I was surprised by with the development were:

    a. The size of the clubhouse, it is a lot more dominant than on the scale models
    b. The marble tiles - I though they would be larger than they are (24 x 24?)
    c. How consistent the theme was, for example the angular frameworks even extended to the carpark basement lefts and the clubhouse
    d. The use of the Caribbean's keyless locking system (Voss something), which can be a bit of a pain to use
    e. The fact that there are square units at the center of the development
    f. The use of grey marble. Maybe my memory is wrong, but I though it would be black with white veins.

    On the pleasant side, the construction quality - tile gaps, use of filler, solidness of parquet and tiles looks top notch, though there is the usual unnecessary paint splotches as for any development. The spacing between units also was larger than it looked on the scale model, and the generous corridor and lift spaces were also a pleasant surprise (cf Sail). The downstairs furniture is also a great and unexpected high end tough (though how practical or durable is anyone's guess)

    As I've said before, if it were not for schooling and the fact I do not have $4m burning a hole in my pocket, I'd be in a Reflections villa tomorrow.

    Check out the poster's unit on page 27 of this thread....stunning!

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...424271&page=27

  8. #608
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    reflections is abt VIEW

    upgrade la on interior....spend $50k like extend room, pillars deco

    u know fm d swimming pools 2 only
    more decorative pools

    LIVING the waterfront living

    Tsunami hit better than east coast
    sentosa will block

  9. #609
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    Yeah, you are right there are 2 units which sold below 1.4m in 2011 [attached]. One of them is the smallest sized unit 1+Study 14th floor, golf facing unit. In fact, the second unit 893 unit at 1.35m is a v good buy even if it's facing golf, it should be a fire sales because it's selling at launch price of 1500 psf for 2 bedders. You should have got it during that time. Now that the project has TOP, not sure if the lowest entry price may slowly creep to 1.5m & abv, there are still a rare no of units now below 1.5m, let's wait and observe... I may be wrong.

    Nowadays, ppl rush to spend 1.5m-1.7m to buy a punggol mass market condo at 1300-1500psf, while my colleague bought a BTO just a throw away from punggol mrt at only 280k. The mass market prices are now nearing some of the CCR and RCR condos, it would be much wiser to put the money into a CCR/RCR condo than a OCR mass market condo. Once the economy turns good, CCR/RCR will be the first to shoot up and has higher capital gains.

    Keppel did not release all the 1100 units yet, they have only released 900 plus units and 800 plus were sold. The timing of their periodic releases are indeed v strange, I am also curious why Keppel is still holding onto the remaining 200 units and did not spread & release them during the past 5 years. But I understand the remaining ones are all 3 bedders & abv, mostly villas and some PH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heng
    Need your contact number or else you can contact agents in property guru ""2779 units for Sale & Rent ""


    The agents are only too happy to see you and conduct viewings while discussing prices.......

    That was how I got to view some of the units that were subsequently caveated at less than $1.4m... during the boom times last year ( before ABSD kicks in ).....

    Now will consider buying only if less than $1.4m ....since unlikely to have capital appreciation in the near term..... difficult to subsale when there are still close to 300 units unsold by developer

  10. #610
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    I am still looking for IDs, anyone good ones to recommend ? Can pm me, thks.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangeroad80
    Keppel did not release all the 1100 units yet, they have only released 900 plus units and 800 plus were sold. The timing of their periodic releases are indeed v strange, I am also curious why Keppel is still holding onto the remaining 200 units and did not spread & release them during the past 5 years. But I understand the remaining ones are all 3 bedders & abv, mostly villas and some PH.

    Keppel is repeating the same strategy they used for the Caribbean, where they originally held back 150 units for corporate lease. These were rented as fully furnished units at approximately 50% above market rents (e.g $7-8K for a 2 bedder) and then sold at an average of $1450psf last year (versus the price of their last release in 2007 of $750psf). This is how Keppel the benchmarked the Reflections first launch price.

    Their phase three is already in the works. Total development size 325,00sqft, so 200-300 units total depending on the size.

    http://www.heintges.com/project.php?...pel-bay-plot-3

    I think this may be why Caribbean prices have been so firm recently. This is a mirror of the Caribbean plot.

    Now if you were Keppel with 3 more plots to develop after this, what price are you going to try to launch? $1500 (Caribbean current average) $2,000psf (Reflections current average, assuming a range of $1500-$2500psf) or $2,500psf? And what price do you think Keppel believes it can get for the balance Reflections units in (say) 2016...$2,500psf or current prices?

    For those curious, they are leasing at fully furnished apartments. Published rate is $10-13K for a 2bedroom, average $13-19K for 3bedroom and $30K for a 4bedder, with 10% off for the current time. These are all villa blocks with inward facings. They are not available for sale...I asked and was not entertained.

    Keppel is a company with the same guys in charge for 30 years. This is a "hedgehog" company, what they plan to do is not very difficult to work out.

    http://www.ianbell.com/2009/05/19/th...h-one-are-you/
    Last edited by 8kenshin; 11-02-12 at 05:15.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8kenshin
    The are repeating the same strategy they used for the Caribbean. They kept 150 units for corporate lease. These were rented fully furnished at approximately 50% above market rents (e.g $7-8K for a 2 bedder) and then sold at an average of $1450psf last year (versus the price of their last release in 2007 of $900psf). This is how Keppel the benchmarked the Reflections first launch price.

    Their phase three is already in the works. Total development size 325,00sqft, so 200-300 units total depending on the size.

    http://www.heintges.com/project.php?...pel-bay-plot-3

    I think this may be why Caribbean prices have been so firm recently. This is a mirror of the Caribbean plot. Now if you were Keppel with 3 more plots to develop after this, what price are you going to try to launch? $1500 (Caribbean current) $2,000psf (Reflections current) or $2,500psf?

    For those curious, they are leasing at fully furnished apartments. Published rate is $10-13K for a 2bedroom, average $13-19K for 3bedroom and $30K for a 4bedder, with 10% off for the current time. These are all villa blocks with inward facings. They are not available for sale...I asked and was not entertained.

    Keppel is a company with the same guys in charge for 30 years. This is a "hedgehog" company, what they plan not very difficult to work out.

    http://www.ianbell.com/2009/05/19/th...h-one-are-you/
    I din know Kep Land is such a cute company.

    http://www.worldmostamazingthings.co...ts-photos.html

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyenergix
    I din know Kep Land is such a cute company.

    http://www.worldmostamazingthings.co...ts-photos.html


    In my book, hedgehogs that act like hedgehogs are the best type of companies to deal.

    Foxes are clever but can be tricky (FEO, Sinoland, Citydev?), and hedgehogs that try to be foxes are confused and confusing (SPH, Ho Bee?)

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8kenshin


    In my book, hedgehogs that act like hedgehogs are the best type of companies to deal.

    Foxes are clever but can be tricky (FEO, Sinoland, Citydev?), and hedgehogs that try to be foxes are confused and confusing (SPH, Ho Bee?)
    OMG, we have an author here. This forum is getting interesting...

    What book(s) have you published?

  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyenergix
    OMG, we have an author here. This forum is getting interesting...

    What book(s) have you published?
    Zero. I do occasionally get paid for writing thing for people though

  16. #616
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    Default 2 bedrooms : back to cost ? no rentals for next few months, etc

    Imagine the scenario in 2007 when Reflections was launched... Beautiful iconic development by the sea side,......etc

    Rush in to buy 2 bedroom for investment at around $1.2m .... what were the hopes then ?

    High subsale prices, good rental, etc....

    Reality now :

    Many who bought other properties around 2007 have reaped handsome profits, doubling their investment, ...etc . Some have even made enough to have their new condos fully paid.

    Thus came the cooling measures, one round after another to tamper the gains from properties. Latest round is the ABSD where buyers have to pay additional 3 to 10% stamp duty on top of the usual stamp duties.

    For Reflections, owners did not get to make huge profits because there were just too many units,...etc.

    If only TOP was in 2010 or earlier.....

    So with the TOP on 5 December 2011, came the realisation of "dream".

    Only units with good sea views can hope to have big capital gains.

    Now that you can step inside actual unit, you become aware of layout, reflections from other units in your eyes,,,etc. Some have just realised that trees have grown over the 5 years and now can block views even at 15th storey sky bridge.

    Remembering the hopes 5 years ago, would owners hold out or move on to more lucrative investments ? Unless got sea view, the golf course view will disappear soon.

    Replacing the golf view will be construction, noise, dust, etc for a number of years. Then the mere inconveniences may be replaced by solid tall blocks ???

    Still hope for pre-ABSD price of $1.4m in 2011 or revert to launch price of $1.2m ..... cash out before another scenario appears ? Disappearing golf view is the only change that one is assured of in the near future.

    Why rent a NO VIEW unit ?

  17. #617
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    Default below $1,400 psf / $ 1.2m at launch ( 2 bedrooms )

    Quote Originally Posted by orangeroad80
    Yeah, you are right there are 2 units which sold below 1.4m in 2011 [attached]. ......because it's selling at launch price of 1500 psf for 2 bedders. ...
    More likely that 2 bedroom units were sold at below $1,400 psf or about $1.2 m during launch ... I know a few friends who bought at around $1.2m.

    The $1.35 m unit sold in 2011 is on the 13th floor : not the 14th
    It now has a good view of the golf course : better than view of other units from low floor units.

    Indeed $1.35m is a good price for high floor unit with unobstructed golf view in 2011 : but in 2012, a more likely price may be around $1.2m

    Lesser Premium developments can get 2 bedroom units at about $900k ( see today's advertisements in newspapers )

    That is easily a $ 400,000 premium for a 2 bedroom unit

  18. #618
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    iconic structure...every1 knows it
    great view 4 sea facing units
    everlasting bldg structure. 20yrs down d road still d same
    no worries on tsunami- covered by sentosa
    a place u buy 4 own stay. live the waterfront living. diff fm east coast
    pelnty of deco pools grandeur feel even tumble in wont drown



    low investment yield 4 new buyers. only gd 4 own stay
    2 swimming pools 2 cater 4 how many tenants? 1100..crowded pool if all go down
    facilities insufficient. 100 tenants in other projects hvg problems wth fighting 4 BBQ pits
    1 pillar cost expensive $thousand
    not enuf trees damn f...k..g hot
    paying a lot 4 electricity on lighting..where's environmental friendly thingy?

  19. #619
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    Be contended. At least you own an iconic building.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heng
    Imagine the scenario in 2007 when Reflections was launched... Beautiful iconic development by the sea side,......etc

    Rush in to buy 2 bedroom for investment at around $1.2m .... what were the hopes then ?

    High subsale prices, good rental, etc....

    Reality now :

    Many who bought other properties around 2007 have reaped handsome profits, doubling their investment, ...etc . Some have even made enough to have their new condos fully paid.

    Thus came the cooling measures, one round after another to tamper the gains from properties. Latest round is the ABSD where buyers have to pay additional 3 to 10% stamp duty on top of the usual stamp duties.

    For Reflections, owners did not get to make huge profits because there were just too many units,...etc.

    If only TOP was in 2010 or earlier.....

    So with the TOP on 5 December 2011, came the realisation of "dream".

    Only units with good sea views can hope to have big capital gains.

    Now that you can step inside actual unit, you become aware of layout, reflections from other units in your eyes,,,etc. Some have just realised that trees have grown over the 5 years and now can block views even at 15th storey sky bridge.

    Remembering the hopes 5 years ago, would owners hold out or move on to more lucrative investments ? Unless got sea view, the golf course view will disappear soon.

    Replacing the golf view will be construction, noise, dust, etc for a number of years. Then the mere inconveniences may be replaced by solid tall blocks ???

    Still hope for pre-ABSD price of $1.4m in 2011 or revert to launch price of $1.2m ..... cash out before another scenario appears ? Disappearing golf view is the only change that one is assured of in the near future.

    Why rent a NO VIEW unit ?

  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8kenshin
    Keppel is repeating the same strategy they used for the Caribbean, where they originally held back 150 units for corporate lease. These were rented as fully furnished units at approximately 50% above market rents (e.g $7-8K for a 2 bedder) and then sold at an average of $1450psf last year (versus the price of their last release in 2007 of $750psf). This is how Keppel the benchmarked the Reflections first launch price.

    Their phase three is already in the works. Total development size 325,00sqft, so 200-300 units total depending on the size.

    http://www.heintges.com/project.php?...pel-bay-plot-3

    I think this may be why Caribbean prices have been so firm recently. This is a mirror of the Caribbean plot.

    Now if you were Keppel with 3 more plots to develop after this, what price are you going to try to launch? $1500 (Caribbean current average) $2,000psf (Reflections current average, assuming a range of $1500-$2500psf) or $2,500psf? And what price do you think Keppel believes it can get for the balance Reflections units in (say) 2016...$2,500psf or current prices?

    For those curious, they are leasing at fully furnished apartments. Published rate is $10-13K for a 2bedroom, average $13-19K for 3bedroom and $30K for a 4bedder, with 10% off for the current time. These are all villa blocks with inward facings. They are not available for sale...I asked and was not entertained.

    Keppel is a company with the same guys in charge for 30 years. This is a "hedgehog" company, what they plan to do is not very difficult to work out.

    http://www.ianbell.com/2009/05/19/th...h-one-are-you/
    Wow! Learn something new today

  21. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by richie$$$
    everlasting bldg structure. 20yrs down d road still d same
    Launched 2007.

    20 years later, left <75 years.... not sure what the value will be like....

  22. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8kenshin
    Keppel is repeating the same strategy they used for the Caribbean, where they originally held back 150 units for corporate lease. These were rented as fully furnished units at approximately 50% above market rents (e.g $7-8K for a 2 bedder) and then sold at an average of $1450psf last year (versus the price of their last release in 2007 of $750psf). This is how Keppel the benchmarked the Reflections first launch price.

    Their phase three is already in the works. Total development size 325,00sqft, so 200-300 units total depending on the size.

    http://www.heintges.com/project.php?...pel-bay-plot-3

    I think this may be why Caribbean prices have been so firm recently. This is a mirror of the Caribbean plot.

    Now if you were Keppel with 3 more plots to develop after this, what price are you going to try to launch? $1500 (Caribbean current average) $2,000psf (Reflections current average, assuming a range of $1500-$2500psf) or $2,500psf? And what price do you think Keppel believes it can get for the balance Reflections units in (say) 2016...$2,500psf or current prices?

    For those curious, they are leasing at fully furnished apartments. Published rate is $10-13K for a 2bedroom, average $13-19K for 3bedroom and $30K for a 4bedder, with 10% off for the current time. These are all villa blocks with inward facings. They are not available for sale...I asked and was not entertained.

    Keppel is a company with the same guys in charge for 30 years. This is a "hedgehog" company, what they plan to do is not very difficult to work out.

    http://www.ianbell.com/2009/05/19/th...h-one-are-you/

    Thanks for sharing. Knowing the company's philosophy helps us to redefine our approach.

    Good to have the single-minded focus of the Hedgehog for our core essence and wear the Fox veneer of opportunistic flexibility when the situation calls for it - the best of all worlds !

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8kenshin
    .......
    For those curious, they are leasing at fully furnished apartments. Published rate is $10-13K for a 2bedroom, average $13-19K for 3bedroom and $30K for a 4bedder, with 10% off for the current time. These are all villa blocks with inward facings. They are not available for sale...I asked and was not entertained....
    any rented out so far?
    are these prices really achievable?
    how does that compare to asking rental for high floor seaview Reflection condos there?

  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by sh
    Launched 2007.

    20 years later, left <75 years.... not sure what the value will be like....
    compare wth same LH property la..hello
    a fan of FH will not b here. i used 2 but after reviewing d investment yield. better 4 LH.
    thks 2 u FH fans, there's a gap. lower capital outlay 4 leasehold
    stay loyal FH buddy as u will always pay premium 4 property in same locality n leave property 4 next gen

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by richie$$$
    compare wth same LH property la..hello
    a fan of FH will not b here. i used 2 but after reviewing d investment yield. better 4 LH.
    thks 2 u FH fans, there's a gap. lower capital outlay 4 leasehold
    stay loyal FH buddy as u will always pay premium 4 property in same locality n leave property 4 next gen
    yup... die hard FH fan here.

    property should be an appreciating asset.

    LH properties run foul of that rule.

    Assuming FH prices stay constant.... LH is depreciating.


  26. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by sh
    yup... die hard FH fan here.

    property should be an appreciating asset.

    LH properties run foul of that rule.

    Assuming FH prices stay constant.... LH is depreciating.

    if LH r nt renewed on lease by developers thru enbloc
    only in SG.
    u pay premium 4 next generation 2 maintain price
    use is d same
    i used 2 b diehard hardcore fan
    realised cashflow same. tenants dun diff FH n LH
    only if u buy sell or trader in properties n FH diehard fans dun sell...

  27. #627
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    in other countries stick 2 FH
    bt pls stick 2 ur belief
    helps us LH & FH fans 2 arbitrage LOL
    i m both bt no diehard

  28. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by richie$$$
    if LH r nt renewed on lease by developers thru enbloc
    only in SG.
    u pay premium 4 next generation 2 maintain price
    use is d same
    i used 2 b diehard hardcore fan
    realised cashflow same. tenants dun diff FH n LH
    only if u buy sell or trader in properties n FH diehard fans dun sell...
    Developer has to pay differential premium to top up LH land back to 99. No issue with FH. So developer will pay less to the LH enbloc owners.

    The issue does not go away through enbloc.

  29. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by richie$$$
    if LH r nt renewed on lease by developers thru enbloc
    only in SG.
    u pay premium 4 next generation 2 maintain price
    use is d same
    i used 2 b diehard hardcore fan
    realised cashflow same. tenants dun diff FH n LH
    only if u buy sell or trader in properties n FH diehard fans dun sell...
    Bro can elaborate a bit more? Your English very cheem... I catch no ball.... So fh good or LH good?

  30. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCR
    Bro can elaborate a bit more? Your English very cheem... I catch no ball.... So fh good or LH good?
    Haha... you are revealing your age.

    Like sms-ing, ricies$$$ uses a lot of short form text.... more tedious for old folks to digest and comprehend. I kena suan before already. Haha...

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