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Thread: The Grandhill (Freehold)

  1. #1
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    Default The Grandhill (Freehold)

    Does anyone have any ffeedback or advice on this property?
    I am looking at this place now....

  2. #2
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    grandhill is one of the best in my opinion. seaview, quiet and serene. what do u wish to know?

  3. #3
    property supporter Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by jt88
    grandhill is one of the best in my opinion. seaview, quiet and serene. what do u wish to know?
    Ya, I also want to buy but current psf is high, above 1000. Do you dare to buy at the current situation???

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    Default View

    Would the view be blocked by the yet to be built Far East's condo at Belmeg?

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    I believe it will not be block by the Balmeg development as the Balmeg would only be at best alongside/abreast with Grandhills. Besides Balmeg appears to be located on the side towards the PSA cranes.

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    MY question on Grandhill is in respecto the reasonable price level one might expect there. Banks are currently valuing properties there at less than 1000psf. HSBC and DBS have reverted with similar preliminary valuation response. Particularly, their valuation appears to he dropped over the past 3 months (not surprisingly). They used to be able to take a valuation of aboug 1000psf for the exact same property.... 3 months down the road, they have advised not able to value at 1000psf anymore... ....

    Any ideas if the owners there are simply too much or if you have any ideas or views as to bank;'s valuation appears to be below wha owners are asking for... will be helpful.

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    yeah definitely no units will be blocked by far east plot. unless the landed properties in front of grandhill gets enbloc and develops 5storey high apts. but still, maybe only 1st and 2nd floor units will be affected.

  8. #8
    property supporter Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    MY question on Grandhill is in respecto the reasonable price level one might expect there. Banks are currently valuing properties there at less than 1000psf. HSBC and DBS have reverted with similar preliminary valuation response. Particularly, their valuation appears to he dropped over the past 3 months (not surprisingly). They used to be able to take a valuation of aboug 1000psf for the exact same property.... 3 months down the road, they have advised not able to value at 1000psf anymore... ....

    Any ideas if the owners there are simply too much or if you have any ideas or views as to bank;'s valuation appears to be below wha owners are asking for... will be helpful.
    I can understand your frustration in trying to get a resonably priced unit at Grandhill, I am also having the same problem as I felt the current psf owners at Granhill are asking is on the high side. But the fact is that no one wants to lower their psf and I really don't know when they will crack. I suspect most of them have holding power and they are not in a hurry to offload their unit at lower psf.

    Even projects such as Maylea are still asking between 900-1000psf and it has been a frustration 1 month hunt for my family, going to units every weekend and ended up like a tourist and agent being a tour guide.

    I guess it all depends on how urgent you need a unit and the only downside will be that prices may go up again which is quite unlikely in view of so many negative news about our property market.

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    Yes, passed by the development yesterday and agreed that it will not be blocked by the new Balmeg condo.... may be just the sideview only for some unit. The older Le Hill is asking for $800 to $900 psf. I think Grandhill is a much better project than Le Hill. But, I personally think that above $1000 psf may be on the high side at current market condition. I also think that there may be a possibility of price adjustment at Pasir Panjang Hill areas once Far East launch its Balmeg condo. I don't think Far East will launch it cheap.

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    My advice is that you take the bank's "valuation" purely as (i) the bank's own risk management mechanism in ensuring that they will be able to recover the loan sum if there is a foreclosure and sale (as they like to say, the banks lend you the umbrella when it's sunny, and not when it's raining), and (ii) therefore a very rough guide.

    I've had different banks quote a spread of more than 15% for the same property at the same time, not least when some of them simply call their agent friends for "quotes".

    Not suggesting that prices should be higher nor lower than what the banks' valuation is.

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    MY question on Grandhill is in respecto the reasonable price level one might expect there. Banks are currently valuing properties there at less than 1000psf. HSBC and DBS have reverted with similar preliminary valuation response. Particularly, their valuation appears to he dropped over the past 3 months (not surprisingly). They used to be able to take a valuation of aboug 1000psf for the exact same property.... 3 months down the road, they have advised not able to value at 1000psf anymore... ....

    Any ideas if the owners there are simply too much or if you have any ideas or views as to bank;'s valuation appears to be below wha owners are asking for... will be helpful.

  11. #11
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    Dear all,
    Thanks for your responses and sharing your views on the same.

    The bank's valuation affects/impact on my buying decision on a number of ways
    1. Financeability of the property. On the basis of me requesting for a 80% loan from the banks, they would be willing to do so, to the extent, the loan quantum will be limited to the 80% of the loan value. Suppose owner is looking to sell at 1.1mio but banks are only able to value it at 1mio. The resulting bank financing would be 800K (80% loan) and I would potentially have to fork out 300K cash/CPF. This means 100K of the property purchase price will not be financed by debt - 100% equity for me on that 100K above bank's valuation. From investment point of view for me, thats a downside and problem for me. From a affordability perspective, that is also additional burden for me, unfortunately.

    2. Refinanceability of property. For the same reasons in Pt. 1 above, I wonder how would this impact on my future refinanceability or prospective buyers' ability of finance the purchase. While I think bank valuation in some way are likely to be tagged to their/their valuers' views of the property market - this is something which we cannot never foretell if it will indeed be a problem in future, albeit it will really depend on when the sale or refinancing is occuring.

    3. Banks Valuation. To me, approaching a number of bank is a quite fix for me to get a "rough" feel of the market. Like Starrynight rightly pointed out, the evaluation criteria of bank's valuation might slightly different from what an investor / speculator's view. I agree. Having said this, I think there are, to some extent, some similarities in bank's approach to valuation given their primary risk mitigation for property mortgage loan defaults are essentially enforcement of security and liquidation (though not very common?).

    My own thoughts (purely my personal view) on bank's valuation and their underlying criteria and how it lines up with my interest as a homestayer as follows:-
    1. Banks lend on a certain loan-to-valuation ratio (i.e. 80%, 90%) as a means of buffer for market risk in the event of a default by the mortgagor/Borrower.
    2. In the event of a default by the Borrower, banks will exercise security and take over the legal ownership of the property. As most banks would prefer not to hold these property on their banks, they would usually take the liquidation approach - sell the property with a goal to recover all interest and loan principal outstanding.
    3. The LTV ratios provides banks a form of buffer against market risk. SUppose a bank lends at 80%, they have in effect a 20% buffer against market risk should they need to enforce security / liquidation. As banks are primarily concerned about getting their interest due and principal back, financing at 80% appears to be a safe bet for them in this sense (i.e. subject to them able to sell the property at, at least 80% of the property valuation).
    In this sense, the bank's valuation in some way or another are aligned with homestayers interest. If my view is acceptable, then the banks valuation would be a proxy to their view on the value of a property. Banks being one of the main mortgager financiers in Singapore, their views would in a large part form a substantial portion of the market's view? Banks being the key pillar to the financing community, their view in some way or another would form the view of the market consensus (highly qualified, to the extent this view could be considered as "market's view" is such that (i) the property market is largely financed by banks, and (ii) the proportion of investor whom purchased the properties in the market as a whole, is negligible).

    To keep the long story short, the decision to make a purchase at a price substantially higher than banks valuation would be challenging and difficult for me.

    Back to the point of The Grandhill - yes, it is frustrating.Owners in this developments appears to continue to be optimistic and a number of the agents whom I spoke to, indicated that owners in this dept. in generally is still looking at pricing north of 1000psf.

    In respect of price adjustment in The Grandhill after Far East launches the nearby plot, any views, any one on this ? To me, as a serious homestaying buyer, this is very worrying for me!!

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    Back to the point of The Grandhill - yes, it is frustrating.Owners in this developments appears to continue to be optimistic and a number of the agents whom I spoke to, indicated that owners in this dept. in generally is still looking at pricing north of 1000psf.

    In respect of price adjustment in The Grandhill after Far East launches the nearby plot, any views, any one on this ? To me, as a serious homestaying buyer, this is very worrying for me!![/quote]

    As history of FAR East Launches, normally high will also bring the greedy selller of Grandhill up their price. As price for FE plot will be at least near to S$1200psf.Grandhill which share the same seaview or even better will be hard to come by. Somemore is already TOP 2 yrs. Pasir Panjang Hill units are rare compare to units along PP rd.

  13. #13
    property supporter Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by PropertiesHunter
    Back to the point of The Grandhill - yes, it is frustrating.Owners in this developments appears to continue to be optimistic and a number of the agents whom I spoke to, indicated that owners in this dept. in generally is still looking at pricing north of 1000psf.

    In respect of price adjustment in The Grandhill after Far East launches the nearby plot, any views, any one on this ? To me, as a serious homestaying buyer, this is very worrying for me!!
    As history of FAR East Launches, normally high will also bring the greedy selller of Grandhill up their price. As price for FE plot will be at least near to S$1200psf.Grandhill which share the same seaview or even better will be hard to come by. Somemore is already TOP 2 yrs. Pasir Panjang Hill units are rare compare to units along PP rd.[/QUOTE]

    I believe the only thing that can prop up the price for PP and D5 in particular will be the revamp of Har Par Villa which URA and STB are currently working together to come up with a new theme park. Not too long ago, Disneyland have indicated their interest to have a theme park in SE Asia and Singapore would probably be an ideal choice place. I am not sure whether the size of the current HPV can accomodate such a big theme park. However, there will be a new MRT station (HPV station) coming up probably by 2010 and I think the govt has big plans for the area.

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    What Haw Par Villa site will be is still uncertain. But, for sure that the pace of development in the vicinity has picked up a lot so much so that LTA has brought forward the opening of the West Coast MRT station. The Haw Par Villa site, being just next to the station, will surely be put to its highest and best use. This area got potential for further growth. There is a future road connecting West Coast Highway to South Buona Vista via Sc Park II and NUS hostel. More land earmarked for Sc Park devt on the other side of Pasir Panjang Hill. See Draft Master Plan 2008.

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    Just out of curiosity, are u in the finance line? Lots of finance terminology in your post

    You are totally right in the rationale for 80% financing (i.e. the buffer) and hence the higher interest rate for 90% financing.

    As I said, diff banks can have totally diff valuations, so you can try the banks and find the best quote, subject of course to the loan packages, etc. You could even try calling diff bankers from the same bank(!), although I have never tried this, because I believe they have different valuation agent contacts.

    Lastly, I personally feel the overriding consideration should be the how much you need (not want) the property (i.e. whether to stay, or for some other purpose), and the overall view of the market. If you think the market will drop, then if you don't need this roof to live under, don't buy, and u don't have to worry about the foreclosure / margin calls if the valuation drops below the loaned amount. If you on the other hand take the view that the prices should stay stable / go up, then the things u mentioned are not such a significant issue.

    I'm fairly sure that the owners of the places at Grandhill / Le Hill / Ventana, etc. are waiting for the prices at the Far East / MCL / another one developments to boost their prices... same as for the Bt. Timah stretch not so long ago.. as the other poster said, Far East's practices are well known.

    Personally, I have a place somewhere along the Pasir Panjang stretch, and I think some of the places are underpriced when u compare with e.g. Hillview... when I have the means to buy another place, I will still try for Districts 5 and 4, but that's purely my personal view...

    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Dear all,
    Thanks for your responses and sharing your views on the same.

    The bank's valuation affects/impact on my buying decision on a number of ways
    1. Financeability of the property. On the basis of me requesting for a 80% loan from the banks, they would be willing to do so, to the extent, the loan quantum will be limited to the 80% of the loan value. Suppose owner is looking to sell at 1.1mio but banks are only able to value it at 1mio. The resulting bank financing would be 800K (80% loan) and I would potentially have to fork out 300K cash/CPF. This means 100K of the property purchase price will not be financed by debt - 100% equity for me on that 100K above bank's valuation. From investment point of view for me, thats a downside and problem for me. From a affordability perspective, that is also additional burden for me, unfortunately.

    2. Refinanceability of property. For the same reasons in Pt. 1 above, I wonder how would this impact on my future refinanceability or prospective buyers' ability of finance the purchase. While I think bank valuation in some way are likely to be tagged to their/their valuers' views of the property market - this is something which we cannot never foretell if it will indeed be a problem in future, albeit it will really depend on when the sale or refinancing is occuring.

    3. Banks Valuation. To me, approaching a number of bank is a quite fix for me to get a "rough" feel of the market. Like Starrynight rightly pointed out, the evaluation criteria of bank's valuation might slightly different from what an investor / speculator's view. I agree. Having said this, I think there are, to some extent, some similarities in bank's approach to valuation given their primary risk mitigation for property mortgage loan defaults are essentially enforcement of security and liquidation (though not very common?).

    My own thoughts (purely my personal view) on bank's valuation and their underlying criteria and how it lines up with my interest as a homestayer as follows:-
    1. Banks lend on a certain loan-to-valuation ratio (i.e. 80%, 90%) as a means of buffer for market risk in the event of a default by the mortgagor/Borrower.
    2. In the event of a default by the Borrower, banks will exercise security and take over the legal ownership of the property. As most banks would prefer not to hold these property on their banks, they would usually take the liquidation approach - sell the property with a goal to recover all interest and loan principal outstanding.
    3. The LTV ratios provides banks a form of buffer against market risk. SUppose a bank lends at 80%, they have in effect a 20% buffer against market risk should they need to enforce security / liquidation. As banks are primarily concerned about getting their interest due and principal back, financing at 80% appears to be a safe bet for them in this sense (i.e. subject to them able to sell the property at, at least 80% of the property valuation).
    In this sense, the bank's valuation in some way or another are aligned with homestayers interest. If my view is acceptable, then the banks valuation would be a proxy to their view on the value of a property. Banks being one of the main mortgager financiers in Singapore, their views would in a large part form a substantial portion of the market's view? Banks being the key pillar to the financing community, their view in some way or another would form the view of the market consensus (highly qualified, to the extent this view could be considered as "market's view" is such that (i) the property market is largely financed by banks, and (ii) the proportion of investor whom purchased the properties in the market as a whole, is negligible).

    To keep the long story short, the decision to make a purchase at a price substantially higher than banks valuation would be challenging and difficult for me.

    Back to the point of The Grandhill - yes, it is frustrating.Owners in this developments appears to continue to be optimistic and a number of the agents whom I spoke to, indicated that owners in this dept. in generally is still looking at pricing north of 1000psf.

    In respect of price adjustment in The Grandhill after Far East launches the nearby plot, any views, any one on this ? To me, as a serious homestaying buyer, this is very worrying for me!!

  16. #16
    DC33 Guest

    Default AIR QUALITY

    Family with members who have allergy may have to consider the container trucks travelling along the west coast highway. Air quality may not be so good. Even the high standard EURO IV Diesel engines generate 5 times more PM2.5 (particulate matter of size less than 2.5 micron) than petrol-driven cars. They can stay suspended in the air for a long time as they are ultra-fine. So! How about those lower standard ones.

  17. #17
    me Guest

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    Heh - I thought we've been through these discussions before? Jurong got Jurong Island industrial stuff, Geylang got prostitutes, North side of Singapore also got industrials, East side got aeroplanes and ships generating pollution also (have you seen the fuel for ships? They look like tar!!), so there is no where in Singapore that is safe, except perhaps the cleanrooms in the wafer fabs

    Quote Originally Posted by DC33
    Family with members who have allergy may have to consider the container trucks travelling along the west coast highway. Air quality may not be so good. Even the high standard EURO IV Diesel engines generate 5 times more PM2.5 (particulate matter of size less than 2.5 micron) than petrol-driven cars. They can stay suspended in the air for a long time as they are ultra-fine. So! How about those lower standard ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Heh - I thought we've been through these discussions before? Jurong got Jurong Island industrial stuff, Geylang got prostitutes, North side of Singapore also got industrials, East side got aeroplanes and ships generating pollution also (have you seen the fuel for ships? They look like tar!!), so there is no where in Singapore that is safe, except perhaps the cleanrooms in the wafer fabs
    Well said, about ask Dc33 where is the best place to live in Singapore or there is none.

    I think only " Heaven is our Home" .

  19. #19
    DC33 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by PropertiesHunter
    Well said, about ask Dc33 where is the best place to live in Singapore or there is none.

    I think only " Heaven is our Home" .
    It's relative. However, stay clear of major highways/ expressways, ports, heavy industries, and oil refinery. I guess you will know where are these places. The concentration of PM from traffic should decrease with height as there is stronger wind. Just stay away from sources of PM. This is only one of the many pollutants in the air.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC33
    It's relative. However, stay clear of major highways/ expressways, ports, heavy industries, and oil refinery. I guess you will know where are these places. The concentration of PM from traffic should decrease with height as there is stronger wind. Just stay away from sources of PM. This is only one of the many pollutants in the air.
    Then you should get out of Singapore and stay at some unknown outcasted place.

  21. #21
    DC33 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackjack21trader
    Then you should get out of Singapore and stay at some unknown outcasted place.
    Not really! There are places like this in Singapore. Some people (probably the richer ones) own a few houses in Singapore to enjoy different environment. Like in Sentosa or even outside Singapore. URA is creating this in Masterplan 2008. That is their vision. Promote waterfront activities, parks, etc.

    There are more than 35 air quality monitoring stations in Singapore and only one PSI (Pollutant Standard Index) reported. PSI varies from places to places and it will affect property prices. Not sure where you stay! Hope you are on high floors and away from expressways and oil refinery! Good Health!

  22. #22
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    Default Any new pricing information?

    Hi guys,
    I wonder if anyone here has any new pricing information. I went to visit one of the apartments there and the owner quoted a price of above 1100psf for a particular (which in my opinion, is not the best level or unit facing in any case) unit.

    Surprisingly, my agent actually advised me against the pricing and made an interesting observation.

    There is a total of 50+ units at Grandhill. As of end July, there are a total of 76 transactions recorded at the REALIS system (including the original sales from developer). This implies, approximately, 50% of the units have been resaled once. Out of the 76 transactions recorded, only 3 transactions are above 1000psf and none were above 1050psf.

    The proposed pricing of 1150psf (for a unit which is not the best facing or level, at least in my opinion) would appears to be a record high for this development (highest ever recorded) in what seems to be a downward sloping market.

    Food for thought ??

  23. #23
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    Assuming you are buying with a view to selling it at some point soon, then you need to think about your cost, and in this case I think 1150psf is def not a good buy..


    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    Hi guys,
    I wonder if anyone here has any new pricing information. I went to visit one of the apartments there and the owner quoted a price of above 1100psf for a particular (which in my opinion, is not the best level or unit facing in any case) unit.

    Surprisingly, my agent actually advised me against the pricing and made an interesting observation.

    There is a total of 50+ units at Grandhill. As of end July, there are a total of 76 transactions recorded at the REALIS system (including the original sales from developer). This implies, approximately, 50% of the units have been resaled once. Out of the 76 transactions recorded, only 3 transactions are above 1000psf and none were above 1050psf.

    The proposed pricing of 1150psf (for a unit which is not the best facing or level, at least in my opinion) would appears to be a record high for this development (highest ever recorded) in what seems to be a downward sloping market.

    Food for thought ??

  24. #24
    helo Guest

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    maybe this unit is a resale of a resaled unit? seller has to sell high to breakeven? u can ask yr agent to tell u when the unit was purchased.

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    Not relating to Grandhill specifically, but there were quite a lot of new caveats lodged and see-able for District 5 on the URA website this week (pre-ghost month rush perhaps?) - useful to take a look to see prices for devts in District 5, and the price trends..

    Quote Originally Posted by helo
    maybe this unit is a resale of a resaled unit? seller has to sell high to breakeven? u can ask yr agent to tell u when the unit was purchased.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by starrynight
    Not relating to Grandhill specifically, but there were quite a lot of new caveats lodged and see-able for District 5 on the URA website this week (pre-ghost month rush perhaps?) - useful to take a look to see prices for devts in District 5, and the price trends..
    The Peak at Balmeg has been launched, reported average price for the entire development is 993psf. Appreciate any views or thoughts on how this might elevate or depress prices at Grandhill. Our previous discussion appears to indicate Grandhill owners are asking effectively about high 900s pricing.

    On the basis of
    1. The Peak will have direct access to MRT (in future) and Grandhill would have to skirt around a long, round about way to walk to the proposed MRT (future).
    2. The Peak has full condo facilities, 3 storey club house and way much larger swimming, amongst others
    3. The Peak would be on substantially higher ground level (for certain units and blocks)
    4. The Peak would be paying for developers price, brand new plus the developer of the Peak (MCLLand) appears to be generally on the higher end of things in terms of finishing as compared to Hoi Hup (Grandhill developer)

    How does Grandhill compares with The Peak at Balmeg given the above?

  27. #27
    recession. Guest

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    Told everyone already, we are going into a recession.

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    Wa interesting development....

    So.. Year 2009 is the year then...
    when other projects also TOP and if rental demand is weak and interest rate rises... then it will be time for bargain hunting..

  29. #29
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    Default check out the us markets

    it's down down down...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DW
    The Peak at Balmeg has been launched, reported average price for the entire development is 993psf. Appreciate any views or thoughts on how this might elevate or depress prices at Grandhill. Our previous discussion appears to indicate Grandhill owners are asking effectively about high 900s pricing.

    On the basis of
    1. The Peak will have direct access to MRT (in future) and Grandhill would have to skirt around a long, round about way to walk to the proposed MRT (future).
    2. The Peak has full condo facilities, 3 storey club house and way much larger swimming, amongst others
    3. The Peak would be on substantially higher ground level (for certain units and blocks)
    4. The Peak would be paying for developers price, brand new plus the developer of the Peak (MCLLand) appears to be generally on the higher end of things in terms of finishing as compared to Hoi Hup (Grandhill developer)

    How does Grandhill compares with The Peak at Balmeg given the above?

    DOnt need to compare, as will be benefit those who stay sideline and BUy at lower price (recession on Global crisis)later for those who flip.

    Wait till interest of borrow less than 1% then slowly pick your place.

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