Clover By The Park, Bishan

[cl0ver]

Point to note is that Mandarin Gardens do not have amenities right outside, with the nearest being Siglap Center. And its also open to public as a friend of mine used to work in a shop there, and we were even invited to use the pool.

If we just use Trevista, since it similar in location & assume buyers profile, the maintenance fees for 3BR is at lower of $270pm. So the difference of $105 times the numbers of units will work out to about $65K pm, and definitely, the shop or shops rental will find it very hard to meet.

lol! i have to give it to you for creativity. but the truth is, not all establishment are the same.
if you want comparison, do consider this. Clover has 2 blocks only while Trevista has 3. That means, when hiring cleaners the common areas on each floor would cost 50% more to clean in Trevista.
3 blocks also means more lifts and that contributes a higher maintenance with separate generators for each block.

i still didnt understand why we are harping on a potential retail outlet in clover when it was never really advertised. Clover is not a service apartment. it does not have the same retail concept that you can find in mandarin gardens. in fact the area for proposed cafeteria is probably as small as a sundry shop with some deck chairs by the pool.

whether this space becomes a cafeteria, or childcare or mahjong room would probably not drive any increase in the maintenance fee which main purpose is to upkeep the whole establishment.

[sleek]

lol! i have to give it to you for creativity. but the truth is, not all establishment are the same.
if you want comparison, do consider this. Clover has 2 blocks only while Trevista has 3. That means, when hiring cleaners the common areas on each floor would cost 50% more to clean in Trevista.
3 blocks also means more lifts and that contributes a higher maintenance with separate generators for each block.

i still didnt understand why we are harping on a potential retail outlet in clover when it was never really advertised. Clover is not a service apartment. it does not have the same retail concept that you can find in mandarin gardens. in fact the area for proposed cafeteria is probably as small as a sundry shop with some deck chairs by the pool.

whether this space becomes a cafeteria, or childcare or mahjong room would probably not drive any increase in the maintenance fee which main purpose is to upkeep the whole establishment.

Oh well, it for the residents there to decide.

Do keep us posted on the Maintenance Fee one year after TOP and hopefully it will remains as when you take over your units.

[Eldenfirefly]

Well, if the developer said maintenance fees would be around $170, they must have some grounds to state that. Are you guys actually implying that in this case, Sim Lian is specifically lying and that the mantenance fee would be much higher?

Personally, if a developer want people to buy their units, there are far more effective and creative ways to get people to buy. Don't need to use low maintenance fees as a selling point.

I think the developer has no reason to lie in this case, so rather than arguing that it is "not possible", blah blah, maybe you guys should find some other angle instead of implying that the developer is lying. Wait kenna sue for libel then you know... lol

[sleek]

That's depend on whether you define Sales Tactics as lying or not. But apparently, the low maintenance fees works on some of your neighbours, if you see the threads above.

Think we are just highlighting that the maintenance fees may not be sustainable in the near future after TOP, so it may actually goes higher once MC takes over.

[CLOVERLUV]

Yup, your first post is a good post... this project is for self stay folks who can pay more for a better project.... Park view is rare and first to be sold out... cityview not too bad but still good enough since buyers are late.

Of course if can wait... the price should fall after 3 to 5 years from TOP. That is what usually happens when L99 projects lose their permium effect when it is aged.

Most of the Bishan flats is more then 15 years.Did the price fall?My friend had brought his Bishan 5rm flat for $100k 20 years ago do you think the price will fall below $100k after 3 to 5 years from now?

[xebay11]

Most of the Bishan flats is more then 15 years.Did the price fall?My friend had brought his Bishan 5rm flat for $100k 20 years ago do you think the price will fall below $100k after 3 to 5 years from now?

Cannot compare like that, those days Bishan as cemetry was fresh in the memories of buyers and also those days, developers / HDB not greedy, they sell at a price people can afford, so prices were low, these days they sell at Affordibility + Future earnings + Rental potential so prices very high, in every game there is always a food chain, the one higher up the food chain always wins. In property the food chain is Govt > Developer > Owner.

[sleek]

Most of the Bishan flats is more then 15 years.Did the price fall?My friend had brought his Bishan 5rm flat for $100k 20 years ago do you think the price will fall below $100k after 3 to 5 years from now?

Not sure about 20 years ago and the $100K price tag.

But the latest HDB flats to be built there, already 13 years old Bishan Heights 5rm, were sold at $3xxK. Think resale flats then are around $450K and now is about $550K.

So to fall to $100K is near impossible even for a 3BR there, short of a major disaster the next 3 to 5 years.

[cl0ver]

sleek, so what made you buy 8@woodleigh, which is LH99 facing ex-cemetary at an avg price of 950psft?

[sleek]

sleek, so what made you buy 8@woodleigh, which is LH99 facing ex-cemetary at an avg price of 950psft?

Seriously, you want to know?

Part of the reason is the traffic conditions here when NL & Clover are completed. Had enough of it, since we moved in 13 years ago and my kid didn't get into Catholic High, even though we were staying right next door because of Balloting.

Anyway already staying in ex-Cemetary land in Bishan, so won't be too concerned by an ex-cemetary across the road and also its quite a heavily-used park now.

More concern will be the future developments there!

Actually did consider Clover and was offered a 12xxsf 4th floor partial pool & park view at $900K, although the psf is lower, the overall quantum is much higher than what I'm willing to afford.

So consider all the new launches with close proximities to MRTs, now asking above $900psf, then we had a pretty good deal since launch were about $800psf for 2BR. And if you check the caveats lodged on Streetsine, quite a lot are actually below $800psf for size of 9xxsf and bigger units.

[Condorich]

Most of the Bishan flats is more then 15 years.Did the price fall?My friend had brought his Bishan 5rm flat for $100k 20 years ago do you think the price will fall below $100k after 3 to 5 years from now?

Ask the buyers who bought in 1997/98 peak. and on Condo, Bishan 8 is my favourite example. LOL

Anyway no point to lose hair over this.. only time will tell..

But at least you like what you paid for and that is more important than anything. There could even be a possiblity of a MRT station being placed near it.... so stay cheerful.

[amk]

Ask the buyers who bought in 1997/98 peak. and on Condo, Bishan 8 is my favourite example. LOL

but if you think every year is like 1997, you will never buy anything.
FEO's Bishan 8 is such a unique project, just like Centro. Compounded by the fact it's in 1996. You also have Hillvista for that matter. Totally overpriced projects, agreed.

But this does not mean each and every project is like this. From the tune of this forum, it looks like each and every project is being talked down.

For me personally, there are quite a few projects that are quite fair. Clover, Double Bay, 8@Woodleigh, Trevista etc. Those really wrong ones are Centro, Silversea, Koh Bro's Lincolm Residence.

In your book, is there *any* current launch project that is a "good" project ? None ?

[Condorich]

but if you think every year is like 1997, you will never buy anything.
FEO's Bishan 8 is such a unique project, just like Centro. Compounded by the fact it's in 1996. You also have Hillvista for that matter. Totally overpriced projects, agreed.

But this does not mean each and every project is like this. From the tune of this forum, it looks like each and every project is being talked down.

For me personally, there are quite a few projects that are quite fair. Clover, Double Bay, 8@Woodleigh, Trevista etc. Those really wrong ones are Centro, Silversea, Koh Bro's Lincolm Residence.

In your book, is there *any* current launch project that is a "good" project ? None ?

Yes agree... just a general comment that property behaves like a cyle... there's up and there will be down.. simple logic... just make sure you have holding power to ride out the lows.. otherwise.. you just can't help it when others are selling at a lost and expect your property prices to hold... you are a tiny dot in the wide wide sea.. I don't talk down projects, I caution buyers... nothing wrong with that. And if you have noticed.. clover is unique and pretty good for the park view. On the other side, not near to MRT... so my views are balanced views.

Fools would think they are wise and the wise would think they are fools.

Good buy are those that are within your means... loan serving ratio of about 20%... near MRT, good facing and preferably FH..

[2004civic]

location is king, not lease.

leasehold projects like Clover or Trevista tend to be cheaper than similar freehold projects like Tresalveo and Arte at Thomson respectively.

so for leasehold, the overall yield (from renting your property) is higher than that of freehold since one pays less upfront, 'cos when people rent your place, they do not care about the lease, only the location (eg near mkt, near amenities, near sch, near MRT, near park, good view etc)

[xebay11]

location is king, not lease.

leasehold projects like Clover or Trevista tend to be cheaper than similar freehold projects like Tresalveo and Arte at Thomson respectively.

so for leasehold, the overall yield (from renting your property) is higher than that of freehold since one pays less upfront, 'cos when people rent your place, they do not care about the lease, only the location (eg near mkt, near amenities, near sch, near MRT, near park, good view etc)

Aiya why you compare Orange to Apple? You take FH bad location compared with LH good location ???? If both locations are just as well located eg near MRT etc, the FH one will hold better value, rental yield? I am not sure now, many LH properties have surpassed the price of well located FH properties liao, I also thought Trevista is higher priced than Arte?? Are you sure your analysis is logical??....timing and being first mover is king.

[CLOVERLUV]

Aiya why you compare Orange to Apple? You take FH bad location compared with LH good location ???? If both locations are just as well located eg near MRT etc, the FH one will hold better value, rental yield? I am not sure now, many LH properties have surpassed the price of well located FH properties liao, I also thought Trevista is higher priced than Arte?? Are you sure your analysis is logical??....timing and being first mover is king.

My personnel view is that now a day I think most people are buying poperty base on what they like and affort rather then FH or LH.After all no body know what is going to happen next....

[noblebaby]

When is the TOP of Clover? the construction is quite fast

[alamak]

My personnel view is that now a day I think most people are buying poperty base on what they like and affort rather then FH or LH.After all no body know what is going to happen next....

Sorri to intercept you here ! Exactly, that's the kind of thinking of folks who chased after the Centro or the Trevista. That's why they become easy prey to marketing gimmick and own "miss the boat" syndrome.

[Number_9z]

Sorri to intercept you here ! Exactly, that's the kind of thinking of folks who chased after the Centro or the Trevista. That's why they become easy prey to marketing gimmick and own "miss the boat" syndrome.

actually I am just curious why there are some many arguments on whether some properties are worth it or not? No one can predict how the property market will behave like what happened in the 1997 crash and the 2007 spike in prices. Not even the so called property experts, analysts or even the govt.. The recession was painted to be the Dooms day of the world in March this year and see what people are saying now Frankly, who can say what's a fair price!? Its all about free market, one likes slapping and the other likes to be slapped... I believe most people, if not all, knows about the risk...if you have the risk appetite, why not? If you dun do your homework, and become "prey" to marketing gimmick, who do you blame? We are talking about few hundreds thousands to millions of $$$.
I like my 80c kopi but many like the $5 star buck coffee. I continue to spend thousands on 4D/toto knowing that I might never become a millionaire..Do I blame Singapore pools for pasting the $3M toto this week poster?

[brian_tay]

actually I am just curious why there are some many arguments on whether some properties are worth it or not? No one can predict how the property market will behave like what happened in the 1997 crash and the 2007 spike in prices. Not even the so called property experts, analysts or even the govt.. The recession was painted to be the Dooms day of the world in March this year and see what people are saying now Frankly, who can say what's a fair price!? Its all about free market, one likes slapping and the other likes to be slapped... I believe most people, if not all, knows about the risk...if you have the risk appetite, why not? If you dun do your homework, and become "prey" to marketing gimmick, who do you blame? We are talking about few hundreds thousands to millions of $$$.
I like my 80c kopi but many like the $5 star buck coffee. I continue to spend thousands on 4D/toto knowing that I might never become a millionaire..Do I blame Singapore pools for pasting the $3M toto this week poster?

Well said!

When my parents bought their 4rm HDB flat in 80s at $80k, who would have expected at that time that they can sell it at $200+k. When I bought my Sengkang flat at $270k in 1999, who would have expected that it can be sold at $400+k, I mean Sengkang is a shithole with perpetual traffic jams and no amenities at that time!

No one can predict the future, so as long as you like the property and its within your affordability, why not!

[Number_9z]

Well said!

When my parents bought their 4rm HDB flat in 80s at $80k, who would have expected at that time that they can sell it at $200+k. When I bought my Sengkang flat at $270k in 1999, who would have expected that it can be sold at $400+k, I mean Sengkang is a shithole with perpetual traffic jams and no amenities at that time!

No one can predict the future, so as long as you like the property and its within your affordability, why not!

yeah!! I almost bought MeraPrime in Tiong Bahru when it was first launched but decided not to as I thought it was expensive then...look at its asking price now anyway....its a personal choice on whether to buy or not!! I congrat those who earned, but to those who are still sitting on a loss...hang in there man.... Singapore is a small islands, there's a good chance of appreciation in the long term, if not just stayed in happily... Cheers and world peace

[Eldenfirefly]

Went to the showroom last Sunday. The agent told me around 80% sold out already. Considering its a large development (616 units), that's pretty impressive.

They got 2 more years to sell the remaining 120 or so units. No pressure. No wonder they say they may pull down the showroom by end of the year.

Both buildings already above 25 stories high in stage of building.

[Number_9z]

Went to the showroom last Sunday. The agent told me around 80% sold out already. Considering its a large development (616 units), that's pretty impressive.

They got 2 more years to sell the remaining 120 or so units. No pressure. No wonder they say they may pull down the showroom by end of the year.

Both buildings already above 25 stories high in stage of building.

2 more years? Thought going to TOP next year!? anyway, they have been selling for quite some time already... my fren bought an unit there and he was monitoring it like everyday as he stayed nearby

[Eldenfirefly]

Top is sometime in 2011 leh. Not 2010.

[cl0ver]

Launched in Jul 2008
Hopefully TOP before Jul 2011. Less than 3 yrs mah.

[Reporter]

Private Residential Units Sold in the Month of August 2009

Project Name ....... Locality . Units Sold To Date . Units Sold In Month . Highest $psf . Median $psf . Lowest $psf
Clover By The Park . RCR ....... 454 ...................... 21 ......................... 862 .............. 774 ............. 677

So Bishan is lower than Ang Mo Kio and Toa Payoh?

[kane]

cos no big developer there to "show" the way... sim lian don't know how to market their apts well enough. even with the advantage that it's within the central region boundary...

[amk]

So Bishan is lower than Ang Mo Kio and Toa Payoh?

no u cannot conclude this based on clover. clover's location, after all, is not right next to MRT, unlike Trevista and Centro. Plus Clover is launched much earlier, didn't catch the recent "new launch" phenomenon.

The real Bishan benchmark to compare, in my opinion, will be that plot of land right next to Bishan MRT. That's on reserve list and had been on sale for 2ys already. It has every reason to be more than Trevista and Centro. (Bishan MRT is an exchange on circle line; surrounding within 50m no tall HDBs so clear view; 3 sides of the land i.e. stadium/MRT, are guaranteed unblocked even in the future; within 1km to 2 primary schools; MRT tracks are underground so not like AMK has track noise; J8 is a much better shopping center than HDB Hub and AMK Hub, plus library next to it.

I'm very keen in this area (for home stay), and had been monitoring this site ever since it's been launched for sale. Very weird, it was "triggered" for sale, by right should be sold long time ago. Dun know why still not sold. For this site, I think even at $1000 psf it will still find plenty of buyers.

[cl0ver]

the next site is the one nextdoor to Gardens @ Bishan...
that estimated to catch $850 psft for leasehold..

[sleek]

the next site is the one nextdoor to Gardens @ Bishan...
that estimated to catch $850 psft for leasehold..

Believed that when bidding closed, $850 will be breakeven cost for the developer, so the project will be over $1K psf.

[kane]

nowadays people speak of 1000psf as if it is the norm for suburban developments. 1mio can't buy much good stuff anymore.