Clover By The Park, Bishan

[goodie]

We never use our combined $30k salary to buy.
We used our $1M cash to buy.
Not so bad! Quite relaxing!
We, together with the rest who are like us, are accumulating and waiting to another opportunity to accumulate more wealth.

One moment you said "siong" to servicve bank loan, leaving little for savings next moment to have $1.0 mil cash....I think it is just wishful thinking. haha
I think with $1.0 mil cash you better retired and play golf la.

[MRT]

Upside will be limited here though as MRT spring up in all the prime areas in next 5-10 years. But happy can already. those who bot the most expensive HDB/condos in 1996 in Bishan are still crying now - still negative equity after the boom. It's not the best area for drivers due to CTE jam and exorbitant ERP. so must be prepared if others make more money, don't be red-eye. Also 99 yr LH with no chance of MRT EVER, so in recessionary times, will be hardest hit.

why the infatuation with MRT?
Bukit Timah, Shelford Road, Meyer Road, Mohd Sultan dont have MRT also, yet value appreciated the most compared to next to MRT locations...

What if Bishan North Shopping centre gets a makeover? or Bishan Park not only has a revamped river line, but turns into something like Dempsey Hill, with restaurants and bars appearing.
It already has 3 restaurants and a spa.

[Clover Penthouse]

Hi All Clover Fans,

Have purchased a penthouse at 39th floor, stack 15, facing bishan park at $779 psf.
Till date, i am still not very satisfied about this purchase because of the following reasons:
1) 99 yrs leasehold.
2) Condo surrounded by HDBs.

I am afraid that resale value will go down in 10-15 yrs.
What is your opinion?.
Thank You.

[AgentKoh]

We never use our combined $30k salary to buy.
We used our $1M cash to buy.
Not so bad! Quite relaxing!
We, together with the rest who are like us, are accumulating and waiting to another opportunity to accumulate more wealth.

Rich people are abound.....

[John]

Bishan North has bigger and more expensive HDB flats. As such, we do not see poor people begging in the food centres. However, we can see these poor people begging in older HDB estates. Bishan North shopping mall has 3 food centres which are of much better standard than other places including those in the city. Many HDB upgraders do not mind upgrading to private condos or apartments near HDB flats because they can make use of the amenities and they are not status conscious. If one is status conscious, he should buy a high end condo in a prime district without amenities.

[Bishan]

Bishan has the highest household income in Singapore? You come from which planet? Bishan is not even a private property area with so many HDBs! No freehold land even, how to have highest income? Bishan residents have also been complaining that they bought the expensive HDB, now Redhill, Queenstown, Clementi, Holland V, Marine Parade, more expensive. It no longer fetch best price for HDB already. Time to wake up.

This is a report done every 5 years. The last done is in 2005. The landscape may have changed but it should not be too much.

The Business Times
Published June 21, 2005
By ALEXANDRA HO

BISHAN New Town, where flats used to fetch eye-popping resale prices during the property boom, has the richest HDB residents. But new towns such as Punggol and Sengkang, which were hardly around in 1998, are fast catching up, according to HDB's latest Sample Household Survey.

The five-yearly survey - the most recent was in 2003 - found that Bishan residents lead the wealth stakes with an average monthly household income of $5,891. Next come Pasir Ris residents, with $5,782. It then swings to the north-eastern HDB towns of Punggol ($5,256) and Sengkang ($5,025), with more young professionals with higher education levels and income setting up homes there. Rounding up the top five is another new town, Sembawang, with an average monthly household income of $4,696.

As for the highest monthly household income by flat type, executive HDB flat owners are right at the top with 20.3 per cent of them having monthly household income of $10,000 and more. That's almost a 5 per cent rise from 1998's figures. As for five-roomers, 10.4 per cent of them make $10,000 and above, roughly a 4 per cent increase.

The survey also found that more people living in HDB flats are owning them. Ownership of HDB flats reaches 97.1 per cent, from 95.2 per cent in 1998.

That tallies with the Department of Statistics' Household Expenditure Survey, which found that housing costs have replaced food as the largest household expenditure.

It could also have something to do with the rise in average monthly household income. From $3,719 in 1998, this had risen to $4,238 in 2003. Those living in bigger flat types actually reported a higher increase in their household income compared with those in one- and two-room flats, who actually saw a slight dip.

The number who live in government-subsidised flats in 2003 grows by 5.2 per cent to 2.84 million people. This accounts for 84 per cent of all Singaporeans. Most HDB flat owners tend to live in four-room flats - close to 40 per cent, or 312,529 households.

HDB also found a rising standard of living among residents, with more people owning consumer goods. For instance, ownership of DVD/ VCD/ VCR players has grown to 81.4 per cent, from 74 per cent, air-conditioners to 70 per cent from 57.6 per cent, and computers to 68.6 per cent from 49.3 per cent, with more than half of the households having internet access.

Household sizes continue to get smaller. An average household has 3.5 persons - a fall from 3.7 persons in 1998, which is, in turn, a fall from 6.2 persons in 1968, when the survey was first done.

The small households are concentrated in new towns, such as Punggol, and mature towns like Queenstown. Towns of intermediate age, for example, Choa Chu Kang, seem to escape that phenomenon.

Just like the general population, the ageing of HDB residents seems inevitable. In 2003, 7.6 per cent of HDB residents were elderly residents, while it was 7.2 per cent in 1998.

As Singapore continues to face a land crunch, HDB residents seem prepared to live in taller blocks of 40-storeys and above, with 31.9 per cent answering in the affirmative. HDB also found that the younger set are more receptive to the idea. Household income is another factor, with those earning more being more willing to live in taller blocks. Most say they would do so because of the good view and that it would be breezier.

Those households who said they intend to move in the next five years fell to 18.6 per cent from 35.7 per cent in the last survey. The age group that's the most likely to make changes - either through upgrading, downgrading or making a lateral move - are those between the ages of 35 and 39. As for the general HDB population, 65.5 per cent of those who made a change in residence did so to upgrade.

And despite the economic downturns in the last few years, more HDB residents said they are satisfied with their lives - 93.4 per cent, higher than the 89.1 per cent who said the same in 1998. 91 per cent also perceived themselves as middle class and above.

The HDB survey is done once every five years. So far, eight surveys have been done since 1968. In the 2003 survey, 7,300 households were involved.

[Aiyoh]

They're different league and freehold lah. You buy leasehold aka HDB type of land meant for wannabes who cannot afford FH. Your area congestion like crazy. Got car also no use. No MRT, cannot drive. Leasehold. Surrounded by HDB. Not prestigious.

Incidentally, all those you name below will get future MRT! Freehold + MRT in the future.

why the infatuation with MRT?
Bukit Timah, Shelford Road, Meyer Road, Mohd Sultan dont have MRT also, yet value appreciated the most compared to next to MRT locations...

What if Bishan North Shopping centre gets a makeover? or Bishan Park not only has a revamped river line, but turns into something like Dempsey Hill, with restaurants and bars appearing.
It already has 3 restaurants and a spa.

[Outdated]

So old report ah! The report only survey the HDB flats lah! Aiyoh! Sengkang, hougang, Pasir Ris and Bishan richest people in Singapore will make people laugh.....

This is a report done every 5 years. The last done is in 2005. The landscape may have changed but it should not be too much.

The Business Times
Published June 21, 2005
By ALEXANDRA HO

BISHAN New Town, where flats used to fetch eye-popping resale prices during the property boom, has the richest HDB residents. But new towns such as Punggol and Sengkang, which were hardly around in 1998, are fast catching up, according to HDB's latest Sample Household Survey.

The five-yearly survey - the most recent was in 2003 - found that Bishan residents lead the wealth stakes with an average monthly household income of $5,891. Next come Pasir Ris residents, with $5,782. It then swings to the north-eastern HDB towns of Punggol ($5,256) and Sengkang ($5,025), with more young professionals with higher education levels and income setting up homes there. Rounding up the top five is another new town, Sembawang, with an average monthly household income of $4,696.

As for the highest monthly household income by flat type, executive HDB flat owners are right at the top with 20.3 per cent of them having monthly household income of $10,000 and more. That's almost a 5 per cent rise from 1998's figures. As for five-roomers, 10.4 per cent of them make $10,000 and above, roughly a 4 per cent increase.

The survey also found that more people living in HDB flats are owning them. Ownership of HDB flats reaches 97.1 per cent, from 95.2 per cent in 1998.

That tallies with the Department of Statistics' Household Expenditure Survey, which found that housing costs have replaced food as the largest household expenditure.

It could also have something to do with the rise in average monthly household income. From $3,719 in 1998, this had risen to $4,238 in 2003. Those living in bigger flat types actually reported a higher increase in their household income compared with those in one- and two-room flats, who actually saw a slight dip.

The number who live in government-subsidised flats in 2003 grows by 5.2 per cent to 2.84 million people. This accounts for 84 per cent of all Singaporeans. Most HDB flat owners tend to live in four-room flats - close to 40 per cent, or 312,529 households.

HDB also found a rising standard of living among residents, with more people owning consumer goods. For instance, ownership of DVD/ VCD/ VCR players has grown to 81.4 per cent, from 74 per cent, air-conditioners to 70 per cent from 57.6 per cent, and computers to 68.6 per cent from 49.3 per cent, with more than half of the households having internet access.

Household sizes continue to get smaller. An average household has 3.5 persons - a fall from 3.7 persons in 1998, which is, in turn, a fall from 6.2 persons in 1968, when the survey was first done.

The small households are concentrated in new towns, such as Punggol, and mature towns like Queenstown. Towns of intermediate age, for example, Choa Chu Kang, seem to escape that phenomenon.

Just like the general population, the ageing of HDB residents seems inevitable. In 2003, 7.6 per cent of HDB residents were elderly residents, while it was 7.2 per cent in 1998.

As Singapore continues to face a land crunch, HDB residents seem prepared to live in taller blocks of 40-storeys and above, with 31.9 per cent answering in the affirmative. HDB also found that the younger set are more receptive to the idea. Household income is another factor, with those earning more being more willing to live in taller blocks. Most say they would do so because of the good view and that it would be breezier.

Those households who said they intend to move in the next five years fell to 18.6 per cent from 35.7 per cent in the last survey. The age group that's the most likely to make changes - either through upgrading, downgrading or making a lateral move - are those between the ages of 35 and 39. As for the general HDB population, 65.5 per cent of those who made a change in residence did so to upgrade.

And despite the economic downturns in the last few years, more HDB residents said they are satisfied with their lives - 93.4 per cent, higher than the 89.1 per cent who said the same in 1998. 91 per cent also perceived themselves as middle class and above.

The HDB survey is done once every five years. So far, eight surveys have been done since 1968. In the 2003 survey, 7,300 households were involved.

[AGENTKoh]

So old report ah! The report only survey the HDB flats lah! Aiyoh! Sengkang, hougang, Pasir Ris and Bishan richest people in Singapore will make people laugh.....

HA HA....

Why people spent so much on a clover condo.... so cramp....on small plot of land....

CTE jam like nobody business

[No regrets]

Buy already don't regret. Not much upside but happy can already. It's interesting people buy 99LH private property at HDB area - it's like neither here nor there. You must be HDB upgrader. If make money next time, can upgrade to more exclusive and freehold lor. Hopefully the prices won't become out of reach by then.

Hi All Clover Fans,

Have purchased a penthouse at 39th floor, stack 15, facing bishan park at $779 psf.
Till date, i am still not very satisfied about this purchase because of the following reasons:
1) 99 yrs leasehold.
2) Condo surrounded by HDBs.

I am afraid that resale value will go down in 10-15 yrs.
What is your opinion?.
Thank You.

[AGENTKoh]

Buy already don't regret. Not much upside but happy can already. It's interesting people buy 99LH private property at HDB area - it's like neither here nor there. You must be HDB upgrader. If make money next time, can upgrade to more exclusive and freehold lor. Hopefully the prices won't become out of reach by then.

Aiyo... like staying in HDB again... dun u think so?????

[home-run]

haiz agentkoh, if u have a bit of class, dun criticize other developer's project.

there are lots of happy buyers at clover.
there are lots of sour grapes out there too.( are u one of them?)

if u can afford it, u like it, buy it.
otherwise look for something else.

[Sage1]

Also, too many units. 600+units? OMG!!!!!

With $779 psf, you could have bought a resale freehold at a reasonable good location with potential (e.g. future MRT, masterplan areas). You and your family can immediate enjoy the full condo facilities. If you don't need to move in, you can immediately be cash flow positive through your rental yield. Assuming it is a large penthouse unit, your rent per month can be easily $5k. For 3 years it is easily $180k of rental revenue for you. You bought a 99LH property in an HDB estate with too many units (lack exclusivity) and still have to wait 3 years for your property to complete. This can't be too wise a decision.

Hi All Clover Fans,

Have purchased a penthouse at 39th floor, stack 15, facing bishan park at $779 psf.
Till date, i am still not very satisfied about this purchase because of the following reasons:
1) 99 yrs leasehold.
2) Condo surrounded by HDBs.

I am afraid that resale value will go down in 10-15 yrs.
What is your opinion?.
Thank You.

[Farrer]

Also, too many units. 600+units? OMG!!!!!

With $779 psf, you could have bought a resale freehold at a reasonable good location with potential (e.g. future MRT, masterplan areas). You and your family can immediate enjoy the full condo facilities. If you don't need to move in, you can immediately be cash flow positive through your rental yield. Assuming it is a large penthouse unit, your rent per month can be easily $5k. For 3 years it is easily $180k of rental revenue for you. You bought a 99LH property in an HDB estate with too many units (lack exclusivity) and still have to wait 3 years for your property to complete. This can't be too wise a decision.

You aiyoh this aiyoh that.... Ong Beng Seng ask you to buy his 99yrs wavey condo at Farrer Road at $1500 psft leh... u dont have to rush, coz he has 1500 units sial !
and i heard Farrer Rd also always jam.....
how like that?

[Upgrader]

Aiyo... like staying in HDB again... dun u think so?????

There are ppl who loves old estates....
People in Seranggoon upgrade to Sunglade coz condo facilities but same location mah.....
alot of whampoa HDB upgraders also upgrade to many condos around there coz they love it there....
Do you think ppl at The Qualtz are HDB upgraders? Considering the HDBs there looks so damn fine !!!

Sometimes its the location. I want my kids to go to Raffles or Catholic High, i want a park view, i want to pay cheap maintainence like HDB..... so.. i buy clover lor.....

[Unregistered123]

Hi All Clover Fans,

Have purchased a penthouse at 39th floor, stack 15, facing bishan park at $779 psf.
Till date, i am still not very satisfied about this purchase because of the following reasons:
1) 99 yrs leasehold.
2) Condo surrounded by HDBs.

I am afraid that resale value will go down in 10-15 yrs.
What is your opinion?.
Thank You.

If you have enough spare money, why worry?. If you like it, then buy it.
People like AgentKoh can only talk nonsense.

[Bad traffic]

Farrer traffic cannot beat the infamous CTE.

Someone mention Bishan Park can become all the hip places in the west like Dempsey, Goodwood, Portsdown etc. For these places to thrive, it must have the following attibutes

1) Good traffic - the target crowd are the motorists. Driving down Holland, Bukit Timah, Buona Vista - traffic is usually good. However, CTE is a nightmare. When a person wants to chill-out, the last thing he wants is to be stuck in traffic jam! Also, motorists don't like to be ripped off by exorbitant evening ERP charges when they go chillout.

2) Easy free parking - Those Dempsey/Goodwood/Portsdown etc. are all private property areas with lots of free parking. Bishan Park doesn't have.

For the above reasons, The Bishan Park chillout place will only attract people in Bishan - not enough business. They will not thrive. There is a reason why all the good food and chill out places are in the west.

You aiyoh this aiyoh that.... Ong Beng Seng ask you to buy his 99yrs wavey condo at Farrer Road at $1500 psft leh... u dont have to rush, coz he has 1500 units sial !
and i heard Farrer Rd also always jam.....
how like that?

[No diff]

Only primary school look at the proximity to your home. RI is secondary school leh - they look at results only. So staying in Bishan doesn't give u advantage in entering RI. No diff.

More impt to be near good primary schools.

There are ppl who loves old estates....
People in Seranggoon upgrade to Sunglade coz condo facilities but same location mah.....
alot of whampoa HDB upgraders also upgrade to many condos around there coz they love it there....
Do you think ppl at The Qualtz are HDB upgraders? Considering the HDBs there looks so damn fine !!!

Sometimes its the location. I want my kids to go to Raffles or Catholic High, i want a park view, i want to pay cheap maintainence like HDB..... so.. i buy clover lor.....

[CTE]

i guess CTE is not the only way out of bishan...
with the widening project plus opening of KPE, lets see how it lessen the congestion...

ERP, cannot predict, it will be everywhere eventually.

well, i wouldnt want a chill out place where the whole singapore will come to.
the word chill out means.. somewhere i come home to to chill.....

Upp Thomson Rd is already reinventing itself to be a Holland V.....
Lets see what Bishan Park will be like after the River makeover....

chill out in West? havent heard of any except sunset way......
again, i think its for ppl from the west only...

its the same for Siglap.... its quite chill out but caters for easterners....
i live in north east and hardly go there.... perhaps once a year....

[Upgrader]

Only primary school look at the proximity to your home. RI is secondary school leh - they look at results only. So staying in Bishan doesn't give u advantage in entering RI. No diff.

More impt to be near good primary schools.

Yes, i have 2 boys... i hope within 1km they can get into Catholic High.....
and after PSLE, maybe they can choose Catholic or Raffles....
anyway, my reasons can be totally different from yours....

[ONG]

Farrer traffic cannot beat the infamous CTE.

Someone mention Bishan Park can become all the hip places in the west like Dempsey, Goodwood, Portsdown etc. For these places to thrive, it must have the following attibutes

1) Good traffic - the target crowd are the motorists. Driving down Holland, Bukit Timah, Buona Vista - traffic is usually good. However, CTE is a nightmare. When a person wants to chill-out, the last thing he wants is to be stuck in traffic jam! Also, motorists don't like to be ripped off by exorbitant evening ERP charges when they go chillout.

2) Easy free parking - Those Dempsey/Goodwood/Portsdown etc. are all private property areas with lots of free parking. Bishan Park doesn't have.

For the above reasons, The Bishan Park chillout place will only attract people in Bishan - not enough business. They will not thrive. There is a reason why all the good food and chill out places are in the west.

You talk like its still justifiable to go for the new Farrer project at double the price? Come on !!!
Traffic there sucks as well... the only winners are Farrer court residents who got 2.15mil each....
1500 units will take YEARS to sell...

[why Farrer]

You talk like its still justifiable to go for the new Farrer project at double the price? Come on !!!
Traffic there sucks as well... the only winners are Farrer court residents who got 2.15mil each....
1500 units will take YEARS to sell...

in addition, estimated PSF range from $1300 to $1400...how many ppl can afford?

[Chill]

KPE confirm has 16 gantries. Every KM one gantry.

You not familiar with the west/northwest? The chillout place are there. Greenwood, Sixth Ave, Portsdown, Gillman Village, Dempsey, Harding, Rochester etc etc.

i guess CTE is not the only way out of bishan...
with the widening project plus opening of KPE, lets see how it lessen the congestion...

ERP, cannot predict, it will be everywhere eventually.

well, i wouldnt want a chill out place where the whole singapore will come to.
the word chill out means.. somewhere i come home to to chill.....

Upp Thomson Rd is already reinventing itself to be a Holland V.....
Lets see what Bishan Park will be like after the River makeover....

chill out in West? havent heard of any except sunset way......
again, i think its for ppl from the west only...

its the same for Siglap.... its quite chill out but caters for easterners....
i live in north east and hardly go there.... perhaps once a year....

[Farrer Court]

Actually Clover buyers should prefer to see the new Farrer Court successful. This is a landmark 99 years LH enbloc case. If the developer cannot make money on this 99yr enbloc even though they intensify the plot by so much, then other built-to-the-brim 99LH condos like Clover can say buy buy to enbloc already - with no enbloc prospect, the 99LH properties can only go one way - down. It's like buying a depreciating asset.

[Clover King]

Rich people are abound.....

Looks like there are lots of bullshitters in this forum. Some earning combine 20K , some 30K. Sure or not, if really earn so much, why buy Clover, should go and buy St Regis. I think these are all ppl with inferiority complex and like building castle in the air. I believe their earning must be in Ringgit or Thai Bahts.

Seriously, there are also lots of sour grapes in this forum who cannot afford to buy and out of jealousy, pray that prices will drop. Whats wrong with buying an expensive condo in the hearts of HDB. Not only can you enjoy the amenities, proximity of public transport and the convenience of marketing, you are seen as the elite amongst the estate. Like one said in 10 years time, our building will be the most modern and majestic within the whle of Bishan. Envy for all you want those losers who have missed out on this opportunity and KUDOS to all the proud owners. Go CLOVER GO

[Curious]

Agreed with Clover King and buying a condo is not only for investment purpose. Go with your means and feel on the project, like it and buy it if able to afford.

Personally, love the area so much and still have not decide which unit to get.

[noblebaby]

Agreed with Clover King and buying a condo is not only for investment purpose. Go with your means and feel on the project, like it and buy it if able to afford.

Personally, love the area so much and still have not decide which unit to get.

all units fully launched? still wait?

[Clover King]

Alas there is someone who is as wise as me....hehe

Seriously, you should take action when your mind are made up as long as you do not need to beg steal or borrow. Buy the unit of your choice at the location of your desire, you can never go wrong. Worst case, you can always rent it out and go in auto cruise with self-financing. Think on the bright side, amongst all the popular Asian countries, Singapore properties are the lowest compared to HK, Taiwan and Japan. This factor alone provide lots of rooms and justification for propery appreciation. Singapore is slowly and surely ovetaking HK & Tokyo as the preferred location for most MNC companies and expatriates and with the govt projection to have a population of 6 millions by 2010 and its growing popularity as the regional hub for almost everything, 2 integrated resorts, F1 host, Medical Hub, Aero Hub, AMK HUB, Toa Payoh HUB, Star HUB, it can only mean one thing................Housing Upside Bullish (HUB)

[Clover Queen]

Alas there is someone who is as wise as me....hehe

Seriously, you should take action when your mind are made up as long as you do not need to beg steal or borrow. Buy the unit of your choice at the location of your desire, you can never go wrong. Worst case, you can always rent it out and go in auto cruise with self-financing. Think on the bright side, amongst all the popular Asian countries, Singapore properties are the lowest compared to HK, Taiwan and Japan. This factor alone provide lots of rooms and justification for propery appreciation. Singapore is slowly and surely ovetaking HK & Tokyo as the preferred location for most MNC companies and expatriates and with the govt projection to have a population of 6 millions by 2010 and its growing popularity as the regional hub for almost everything, 2 integrated resorts, F1 host, Medical Hub, Aero Hub, AMK HUB, Toa Payoh HUB, Star HUB, it can only mean one thing................Housing Upside Bullish (HUB)

I agree fully with Clover King. Looks like we are a couple King and Queen. Wonder if we are actually neighbour like next to one another....

[Curious]

Yes yes ... should be going over the weekend.

BTW, what is auto cruise with self financing ??? Very new to me ????