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Thread: Cuscaden vs Leonie Hill

  1. #1
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    Default Cuscaden vs Leonie Hill

    Hello. I am looking to buy old FH condos in D09 or D10.

    Was looking at Cuscaden Residences (D10) vs Leonie Hill Residence(D09).
    Psf prices are 2300+ vs 2200+. Prices went up min. 15-20% compared to end-2017.. so gutted that I did not buy it last year..

    I am not local and want to know which area is “perceived” to be more prestigious in Singapore. I really like Cuscaden because of its tranquility despite its proximity to Orchard shopping area (Forum, Hilton hotel, Wheelock, etc). I also like Leonie Hill very much as it’s really quiet as well while it is so close to Ngee Ann city and Mandarin Gallery. Are these two areas equal or is one more exclusive than the other? A local agent said “Leonie Hill or Grange address matters”..

    I am hoping to see some capital appreciation over the time horizon of next 15-20 years..(keeping my fingers crossed for enbloc)

    Looking to rent it out and live somewhere else cheaper while I am paying off all the debts..

    At a similar price range, am also considering Tanglin Park. Its top is 1986. Is it likely to go enbloc?
    It seems the affluent live there, hence they are not interested in making profit from enbloc?

    Many people seem to suggest to look for 99 LH rather than old FH in this forum.. Hence I also am considering buying Amarillys in Newton as it’s a lot cheaper than the aforementioned FH condos. (Psf 1400+)

    1) please share with me your perceptions about Leonie Hill vs Cuscaden

    2) any opinion about Tanglin Park and Amarillys?

  2. #2
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    Grange Road is historically more expensive than Leonie Hill.

    Tanglin Park. For it to go enbloc, there must be some kind of profit for the developer after costs. You can analyse that plot of land and see if there is any profitable upside for potential developers.

    Amaryllis Ville is located in D11 and it is 99 years leasehold... Perhaps 85 years left now on its lease.

    IMO, in areas like these where D9, D10 and D11 converge and are neighbouring each other, the district boundaries are simply technical constructs. I would just invest in whichever can bring higher returns. For living, I would just rent whichever is more convenient for me.

  3. #3
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    Thanks for being the first one to reply to my thread

    Is Cuscaden Residence regarded as “being part of Grange Road”?

    I was comparing it with Leonie Hill.. not the Grange or Grange Residences...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Anus View Post
    Grange Road is historically more expensive than Leonie Hill.

    Tanglin Park. For it to go enbloc, there must be some kind of profit for the developer after costs. You can analyse that plot of land and see if there is any profitable upside for potential developers.

    Amaryllis Ville is located in D11 and it is 99 years leasehold... Perhaps 85 years left now on its lease.

    IMO, in areas like these where D9, D10 and D11 converge and are neighbouring each other, the district boundaries are simply technical constructs. I would just invest in whichever can bring higher returns. For living, I would just rent whichever is more convenient for me.
    Btw, Tanglin Park the land is huge, 37000sqm for only 274 units. It’s only 4 story high or sth and I think if the developer(s) can build higher on that plot, it will be profitable.. it’s FH, so no need to pay for renewing the lease..

    Maybe 2000+ sqf price already has taken this into account.. cuz the developer will have to sell it at least 2600+ per sqf? And this is not easy for Tanglin area per se not such a prime location vs Orchard?

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    A few things to take into consideration when comparing both development. I actually viewed and considered both developments back in 2016.

    1) Prestige - in terms of prestige, Cuscaden area definitely considered more high class compared to the Leonie Hill area. Leonie Hill Residences is quite close to river valley already while Cuscaden is located near St Regis and Regent hotel. And City Dev is building the Edition hotel at the plot right next to Cuscaden Residences.

    2) Accessiblity - CR better at the moment but probably comparable in the future. Currently, in terms of transport: CR you have buses along Orchard Boulevard and Tanglin Road. MRT closest is Orchard MRT. LHR only buses along River Valley Road and closest MRT is Somerset (which is quite far away). In terms of malls, CR you have Forum/Tanglin Mall and LHR you have Great World City. Crowd probably abit different with Forum/Tanglin catering more to expats (higher price point) while GWC is more local.
    In the future, once the TE line is completed, LHR will be very close to the entrance of Great World station but CR won't be too far away from the Orchard Boulevard station as well.

    3) Layouts - both developments have a mix of 2-3 bedrooms. Personally i think LHR has a better layout because the typical 3BR for CR has odd shaped bedrooms.

    4) Development - CR's land is almost 2.5x the size of LHR. CR 150 units vs. 80 units for LHR so wouldn't be surprising if maintenance fee for LHR would be more expensive compared to CR. Furthermore, CR has full facilities including a proper size swimming pool and tennis court. From my memory, don't think LHR has a tennis court.

    5) Rental - obviously with the construction going on next door at CR, rental wouldn't be good in the short term while no on going construction near LHR.

    In summary, i would personally go for CR. The development and surrounding environment feels alot more posh compared to LHR. In the future, CR will be surrounded by high end hotels and high end serviced apartments (Hana). YTL's 3 Orchard by the Park and GLS Cuscaden plot also near by.

  6. #6
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    Cuscaden area is probably on par with Paterson Hill/Road, Ardmore, and Claymore area.

    Grange Road and Leonie Hill areas are considered secondary areas already (for condos). Even for landed, those along Paterson Road/Paterson Hill/Cuscaden area is more prestigious to Grange road area (which is much further away from Orchard Road).

    Tanglin Park and Amarillys are both pretty far from MRT station.

    D9, D10, and D11 have private properties that are mostly freehold. The few 99-years leasehold does not hold their values very well - Amarillys is a very good example. Initially it was selling at much higher price psf when new, but as it ages, it is now selling at lower price psf compare to its nearby freehold neighbouring estates which are much older than Amarillys.


    Quote Originally Posted by honeypot View Post
    Hello. I am looking to buy old FH condos in D09 or D10.

    Was looking at Cuscaden Residences (D10) vs Leonie Hill Residence(D09).
    Psf prices are 2300+ vs 2200+. Prices went up min. 15-20% compared to end-2017.. so gutted that I did not buy it last year..

    I am not local and want to know which area is “perceived” to be more prestigious in Singapore. I really like Cuscaden because of its tranquility despite its proximity to Orchard shopping area (Forum, Hilton hotel, Wheelock, etc). I also like Leonie Hill very much as it’s really quiet as well while it is so close to Ngee Ann city and Mandarin Gallery. Are these two areas equal or is one more exclusive than the other? A local agent said “Leonie Hill or Grange address matters”..

    I am hoping to see some capital appreciation over the time horizon of next 15-20 years..(keeping my fingers crossed for enbloc)

    Looking to rent it out and live somewhere else cheaper while I am paying off all the debts..

    At a similar price range, am also considering Tanglin Park. Its top is 1986. Is it likely to go enbloc?
    It seems the affluent live there, hence they are not interested in making profit from enbloc?

    Many people seem to suggest to look for 99 LH rather than old FH in this forum.. Hence I also am considering buying Amarillys in Newton as it’s a lot cheaper than the aforementioned FH condos. (Psf 1400+)

    1) please share with me your perceptions about Leonie Hill vs Cuscaden

    2) any opinion about Tanglin Park and Amarillys?
    Last edited by teddybear; 28-03-18 at 21:45.

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    Tanglin Park is bordering those Good Class Bungalow (GCB) areas. It is unlikely that developers are allowed to build higher now and in future given the restricted plot ratio (of probably 1.4) - and it is unlikely this will be revised in future else it will affect the landed properties and the GCBs nearby. This is a matter of land planning by URA.

    Quote Originally Posted by honeypot View Post
    Btw, Tanglin Park the land is huge, 37000sqm for only 274 units. It’s only 4 story high or sth and I think if the developer(s) can build higher on that plot, it will be profitable.. it’s FH, so no need to pay for renewing the lease..

    Maybe 2000+ sqf price already has taken this into account.. cuz the developer will have to sell it at least 2600+ per sqf? And this is not easy for Tanglin area per se not such a prime location vs Orchard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Tanglin Park is bordering those Good Class Bungalow (GCB) areas. It is unlikely that developers are allowed to build higher now and in future given the restricted plot ratio (of probably 1.4) - and it is unlikely this will be revised in future else it will affect the landed properties and the GCBs nearby. This is a matter of land planning by URA.
    Yes, I also found out the plot ratio is very low at 1.4..

    Btw I was also interested in Paterson Collectioj but heard from my friend who lives in The Paterson that it would be a serviced apartment. Bukit sembawang determined not to sell it as condos.. they already paid penalties to Govt for not selling the units within two years from the end of construction..

    I am an expat and have to pay 19% stamp duties on top. Do you think I am crazy to buy a Cuscaden residence now? At 2300+ sqf?
    Because ultimately I should be able to sell that property at 20%-30% more expensive price to recoup my original investment + interest I pay. Morgan Stanley said the prime district condo price would double by 2030. Do you feel that it could happen?

    I am tired of paying rents in singapore.. I have seed money..my wife wants stable “home”.. so seriously considering buying a condo..

    We did our research. Too late to go into East coast, Patong Pasir, and etc.. Queenstown looks alright but apparently it’s old men’s city?
    so we figured out it’d be better to invest in prime districts.. Just chip in your thoughts please.

  9. #9
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    Frankly speaking, to buy or not, you have to make your own decision.

    However, I can only tell you my opinion and my thinking:

    1) For Paterson Collection, Bukit Sembawang not selling anymore. BS refused to sell at cheap price of about $2500 psf (when they can), and so they rather pay the QC charges and convert PC to become serviced apartment to collect rent (which to them is more decent and more worth it than selling PC at $2500 psf). That very much tells us what kind of value BS has attached to PC (in CCR prime district), which they rather own than sell at $2500 psf.

    2) Cuscaden Residence at $2300 psf and being freehold is considered cheap! My impression (just off my head, pls check) is that this is like more than 25% off the historical peak price (for this estate) hit in 2007.
    On the other hand, you look at OCR, those condos are now asking and selling at >=$1500 psf (and is just 99-years leasehold)! These are basically at their thousand years historical peak (much higher than the peak hit in 2007)!
    Would you be willing to buy at thousand years historical peak price or at a discount of 25% from historical peak (hit in 2007)?

    3) You look at Orchard Residences nearby, just 99-years leasehold and selling at >$3000 psf and even hitting $6000 psf!
    You look at MarQ@Paterson nearby, this is freehold and most are transacted at $4000-8000 psf!

    4) Cuscaden Residence is freehold, which itself I believe justify paying 15% ABSD stamp duties (if you are buying for the long term). The 15% ABSD would not be worth it if you are buying 99-years leasehold properties, since you have to start thinking about disposing it to the next greater fool once you owned it as its land lease runs down.

    5) Singapore's property cooling measures are well-meaning, but yet it has shown its very serious side effects!
    Whil the property cooling measures are supposed to cool all private properties, it seems to hit CCR prime district properties (like where Cascuden Residences is located) terribly hard that many drop >20-35% off the historical peak price hit in 2007.
    However, these property cooling measures seem to have negligible effect on OCR private properties, particularly the new launch that they are now selling at thousand years historical peak (much higher than the peak price hit in 2007)!

    6) Comparing Singapore CCR prime districts to other cities like HK, NY, London, etc, I believe Singapore is still much cheaper right?
    And you have to add much better security (think about better safety for your wife and your children), air quality, cheap to eat out, fast transport, green and clean environment etc into your appraisal and comparison.

    7) As I am writing now, CCR private properties prices are already recovering.
    New Futura at Leonie Hill (a location which usually commands cheaper price than Cuscaden/Paterson/Ardmore/Claymore) are now selling at $3200 psf and higher!

    8) I have no doubt that CCR property price recovery will supersede OCR going forward, just a matter of time, given the massive money printing and soon much higher cost of living and inflation with the increases of water charges (by 30%), petrol duties, electricity tariffs, car park charges, commercial rentals (by 100% or more in many cases), soon carbon taxes, car prices, public transport fares, escalating manpower and material costs to construct properties, many enbloc sales at historical peak prices, escalating land sale prices, escalating land DC charges, etc!
    Remember the saying (which I believe and have benefitted tremendously): hard assets like properties are the best hedge against money printing and escalating inflation!

    Quote Originally Posted by honeypot View Post
    Yes, I also found out the plot ratio is very low at 1.4..

    Btw I was also interested in Paterson Collectioj but heard from my friend who lives in The Paterson that it would be a serviced apartment. Bukit sembawang determined not to sell it as condos.. they already paid penalties to Govt for not selling the units within two years from the end of construction..

    I am an expat and have to pay 19% stamp duties on top. Do you think I am crazy to buy a Cuscaden residence now? At 2300+ sqf?
    Because ultimately I should be able to sell that property at 20%-30% more expensive price to recoup my original investment + interest I pay. Morgan Stanley said the prime district condo price would double by 2030. Do you feel that it could happen?

    I am tired of paying rents in singapore.. I have seed money..my wife wants stable “home”.. so seriously considering buying a condo..

    We did our research. Too late to go into East coast, Patong Pasir, and etc.. Queenstown looks alright but apparently it’s old men’s city?
    so we figured out it’d be better to invest in prime districts.. Just chip in your thoughts please.
    Last edited by teddybear; 01-04-18 at 13:14.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Cuscaden vs Leonie Hill

    Hi all, I would like to revive this thread, if you don't mind.

    So I am now in my early 30s, still single, a working professional, with some savings. I have decided that I might be ready to buy a CCR condo, preferably near Orchard/ D9 which has been my dream ever since I could remember. My budget is approximately $2.5-3 million. Looking for a 2 BR or 3 BR (if the budget allows), more for investment at this point in time, then perhaps own-stay should the opportunity/ need come in the future.

    Given the lowish budget for a condo in Orchard/ D9, I am aware that my options are limited. Moreover, I am only looking at FH properties as I believe property investment is a long-term one and I am a person who believes in FH condos over 99LH ones (also partially due to my parents' influence). Therefore, this leaves me with FH resale condos only.

    I have done some research over the past few months, and two condos have come up in my search time and again. They are Cuscaden Residences (CR) and The Paterson (TP). They both have prestigious Orchard Rd addresses, Cuscaden Rd and Paterson Rd respectively. Of course, there are pros and cons with each one and I have listed them below.

    CR:
    Pros - great address/ geographical location, 350m to upcoming Orchard Boulevard station, right next to new launches like Cuscaden Reserve/ Park Nova/ Boulevard 88 makes this look cheap, near-ish to malls like Tanglin Mall and The Forum hence great for grocery shopping etc, pretty big site area, decent facilities.
    Cons - 2BR and 3BR units have really strange layouts, price point (in terms of psf and overall quantum) slightly higher than TP, rental return also perhaps slightly lower than TP.

    TP:
    Pros - great address/ geographical location, tucked away from main road hence more privacy/ less noise, 350m to Orchard station which will soon become an interchange station, large GLS land plots above Orchard interchange MRT which will soon be launched hence there is upside potential, being almost next to the infamous Marq @ Paterson Hill similarly makes this look cheap, 2 BR and 3 BR layouts are generally better than CR, price point slightly lower than CR, rental return slightly better than CR.
    Cons - site area is approximately 57000+ sqft - while not considered small in today's terms, it is still smaller than CR; facade looks a bit dated (though this is subjective).

    Both condos are about the same age (CR TOPed in 2002 and TP in 2004). I am also thinking about future enbloc potential for them both.

    Would any gurus like to offer some advice and share some insights? Thanks in advance!




    Quote Originally Posted by teddybear View Post
    Frankly speaking, to buy or not, you have to make your own decision.

    However, I can only tell you my opinion and my thinking:

    1) For Paterson Collection, Bukit Sembawang not selling anymore. BS refused to sell at cheap price of about $2500 psf (when they can), and so they rather pay the QC charges and convert PC to become serviced apartment to collect rent (which to them is more decent and more worth it than selling PC at $2500 psf). That very much tells us what kind of value BS has attached to PC (in CCR prime district), which they rather own than sell at $2500 psf.

    2) Cuscaden Residence at $2300 psf and being freehold is considered cheap! My impression (just off my head, pls check) is that this is like more than 25% off the historical peak price (for this estate) hit in 2007.
    On the other hand, you look at OCR, those condos are now asking and selling at >=$1500 psf (and is just 99-years leasehold)! These are basically at their thousand years historical peak (much higher than the peak hit in 2007)!
    Would you be willing to buy at thousand years historical peak price or at a discount of 25% from historical peak (hit in 2007)?

    3) You look at Orchard Residences nearby, just 99-years leasehold and selling at >$3000 psf and even hitting $6000 psf!
    You look at MarQ@Paterson nearby, this is freehold and most are transacted at $4000-8000 psf!

    4) Cuscaden Residence is freehold, which itself I believe justify paying 15% ABSD stamp duties (if you are buying for the long term). The 15% ABSD would not be worth it if you are buying 99-years leasehold properties, since you have to start thinking about disposing it to the next greater fool once you owned it as its land lease runs down.

    5) Singapore's property cooling measures are well-meaning, but yet it has shown its very serious side effects!
    Whil the property cooling measures are supposed to cool all private properties, it seems to hit CCR prime district properties (like where Cascuden Residences is located) terribly hard that many drop >20-35% off the historical peak price hit in 2007.
    However, these property cooling measures seem to have negligible effect on OCR private properties, particularly the new launch that they are now selling at thousand years historical peak (much higher than the peak price hit in 2007)!

    6) Comparing Singapore CCR prime districts to other cities like HK, NY, London, etc, I believe Singapore is still much cheaper right?
    And you have to add much better security (think about better safety for your wife and your children), air quality, cheap to eat out, fast transport, green and clean environment etc into your appraisal and comparison.

    7) As I am writing now, CCR private properties prices are already recovering.
    New Futura at Leonie Hill (a location which usually commands cheaper price than Cuscaden/Paterson/Ardmore/Claymore) are now selling at $3200 psf and higher!

    8) I have no doubt that CCR property price recovery will supersede OCR going forward, just a matter of time, given the massive money printing and soon much higher cost of living and inflation with the increases of water charges (by 30%), petrol duties, electricity tariffs, car park charges, commercial rentals (by 100% or more in many cases), soon carbon taxes, car prices, public transport fares, escalating manpower and material costs to construct properties, many enbloc sales at historical peak prices, escalating land sale prices, escalating land DC charges, etc!
    Remember the saying (which I believe and have benefitted tremendously): hard assets like properties are the best hedge against money printing and escalating inflation!

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