City fringe condos

[DC33_2008]

Hence, why people buy new apartment at so high $psf with large A/C ledges and balcony but small master bedroom, mini kitchen and toilet for while developer is laughing to the bank.

Nice place, astrid meadows. they don't make them like they used to anymore.

[Sandiwara]

Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money

But no one have such crystal ball

[teddybear]

Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):

Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!

But no one have such crystal ball

Buying at the wrong time and wrong location - lose money
Buying at the wrong time and right location - still lose money
Buying at the right time and right location - make money!
Buying at the right time and wrong location -still make money

[Kelonguni]

I think you have not been following up with most of the enbloc sales recently.

Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):

Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!

[teddybear]

For every successful enbloc sales, there are probably >9 disappointed ones............
Enbloc sales are just DREAMS for many, like striking LOTTERY (again for every 1 you heard of, there are many who sunk in MUCH more money and get little to ZERO return)................

I think you have not been following up with most of the enbloc sales recently.

[Kelonguni]

So how many CCR FH enbloc sales have you encountered in the last 3 years?

For every successful enbloc sales, there are probably >9 disappointed ones............
Enbloc sales are just DREAMS for many, like striking LOTTERY (again for every 1 you heard of, there are many who sunk in MUCH more money and get little to ZERO return)................

[Sandiwara]

If I pay 500k less to stay in PP compared to QT, and yet I am in city fringe, why not.... U know how many years we need to work to save 500k? Owing this money means we reduce on lifestyle for years, and I don't tink tis is a good way of living....provided u have 500k to spare without feeling a pinch!!! And for QT, the price is easier to go down than go up . And the reason for such a difference have to do with QT is a more matured estate and nearer to town. And developers spoil the market by bidding too much, and people are suck in by fear..... u see those who bought ascential sky, didn't resale at 2k psf, but resale at your purchase price, means ....next time u resell your Commonwealth towers, Queens Peak will either at your purchase price or lower, good luck to those who bought!

People see 500k differently.

[teddybear]

As I have mentioned before, I don't buy properties to enbloc.
As we all know, those so-called "enbloc potential" properties are all mostly dilapidating, that is why their owners are so eager to enbloc.
Another group of people meanwhile will purposely want to get elected to be MCST members to ensure that the estate is made to become dilapidated so that the other owners will agree to enbloc.
Another group is because they know the 99-years lease is running out, their market value will drop exponentially! What all this means is that such "enbloc potential" estate has extremely low rental rate.

In contrast, High quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, like Ardmore Park, don't think many owners would want to enbloc when they can enjoy the estate or rent out at good rental yield even at about 20 years old (unless the price is SO SO SUPER GOOD that they simply cannot refuse!).

If you want to know about enbloc, you can consult Laguna.
Actually Laguna already had already shared his/her experience about buying "enbloc potential" properties and the conclusion is same as what I mentioned above. If you still have doubts about what Laguna revealed, please raised it here openly.


So in summary, I avoid so-called "enbloc potential" properties, and emphasize on ensuring the estate is kept in best condition and collect best possible rental yields for >100 years!

So how many CCR FH enbloc sales have you encountered in the last 3 years?

[tonymontana]

Let me tell you this based on my experience (don't need crystal ball):

Buy FREEHOLD property in CCR right location even at WRONG TIMING - 50 years later you will still make SIGNIFICANT PROFITS
and better off than somebody who bought 99-years leasehold property in OCR at RIGHT TIMING!

based on your OWN experience, buy CCR 50 yrs later significant profits. So meaning you bought your CCR property at 10 years old and you're sixty Now? Or is it 20 y.o and 70 now? Or are you 80 years old?

I think you mean based on your analysis, not your personal experience.

just sayin'. Don't get mad. I (more or less) agree with you. Some LH property in town centre also have significant profits if bought 50 years ago. So not necessarily only freehold.

[Kelonguni]

So that means that for you, no matter 100 (built 1917) or 200 year old (built 1817) property, as long as is CCR FH, will be high quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, and all OCR properties will not have any of those qualities?

That is as scientific and logical (lack of) thinking as the Jurong human particulate filtration principle. But thanks for the entertainment.

As I have mentioned before, I don't buy properties to enbloc.
As we all know, those so-called "enbloc potential" properties are all mostly dilapidating, that is why their owners are so eager to enbloc.
Another group of people meanwhile will purposely want to get elected to be MCST members to ensure that the estate is made to become dilapidated so that the other owners will agree to enbloc.
Another group is because they know the 99-years lease is running out, their market value will drop exponentially! What all this means is that such "enbloc potential" estate has extremely low rental rate.

In contrast, High quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, like Ardmore Park, don't think many owners would want to enbloc when they can enjoy the estate or rent out at good rental yield even at about 20 years old (unless the price is SO SO SUPER GOOD that they simply cannot refuse!).

If you want to know about enbloc, you can consult Laguna.
Actually Laguna already had already shared his/her experience about buying "enbloc potential" properties and the conclusion is same as what I mentioned above. If you still have doubts about what Laguna revealed, please raised it here openly.


So in summary, I avoid so-called "enbloc potential" properties, and emphasize on ensuring the estate is kept in best condition and collect best possible rental yields for >100 years!

[teddybear]

You have to ask yourself, if you buy a Kia, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?

Now, if you are willing to pay much more and buy say a Mercedes Benz E-class, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?

That basically will tell you about quality of OCR condos vs CCR condos.
And obviously Freehold makes a lot of difference since for 99-years leasehold, your property and land is worth $ZERO at the end of 99-years.

All the above are just common sense that only people without those will dispute these..........................

So that means that for you, no matter 100 (built 1917) or 200 year old (built 1817) property, as long as is CCR FH, will be high quality well built with good quality workmanship properties, and all OCR properties will not have any of those qualities?

That is as scientific and logical (lack of) thinking as the Jurong human particulate filtration principle. But thanks for the entertainment.

[Kelonguni]

So that means you will buy a 30-year old Mercedes or BMW and will not buy a brand new Toyota at the same price, say 100K?

You have to ask yourself, if you buy a Kia, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?

Now, if you are willing to pay much more and buy say a Mercedes Benz E-class, what quality of engine, crash safety fittings, and furnishing will you get?

That basically will tell you about quality of OCR condos vs CCR condos.
And obviously Freehold makes a lot of difference since for 99-years leasehold, your property and land is worth $ZERO at the end of 99-years.

All the above are just common sense that only people without those will dispute these..........................

[teddybear]

99-years leasehold OCR property is like Kia, how to compare?
I will never buy Kia, regardless of price!

So that means you will buy a 30-year old Mercedes or BMW and will not buy a brand new Toyota at the same price, say 100K?

[thomastansb]

That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.

If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.

99-years leasehold OCR property is like Kia, how to compare?
I will never buy Kia, regardless of price!

[Sandiwara]

That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.

If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.

I wish real life is as simple as only Lease Hold or Freehold. Like digital world 1 or 0. The realty is not as simple as that. I have a friend that die-die only want to buy freehold. Until now He have not have any property in Singapore. Meanwhile I already pay the installment for current condo for 5 years. The price not change so much which is still around 800k as per price on 2012. At least if I sell my condo I still pocket 240K from the transaction. And in 2012 I just need to pay 128K for the down payment.

[Amber Woods]

I wish real life is as simple as only Lease Hold or Freehold. Like digital world 1 or 0. The realty is not as simple as that. I have a friend that die-die only want to buy freehold. Until now He have not have any property in Singapore. Meanwhile I already pay the installment for current condo for 5 years. The price not change so much which is still around 800k as per price on 2012. At least if I sell my condo I still pocket 240K from the transaction. And in 2012 I just need to pay 128K for the down payment.

Do you mean you bought resale in 2012 and has been renting it out for $4000 pm for 5 years and hence the $240K collected from rental? Do you not offset against your mortgage payment, maintenance fee and property tax off from the $240K?

[Sandiwara]

Do you mean you bought resale in 2012 and has been renting it out for $4000 pm for 5 years and hence the $240K collected from rental? Do you not offset against your mortgage payment, maintenance fee and property tax off from the $240K?

Sorry for the confusion. I bought it for stay. I am PR so I can effort to sell it if I have no choice
And keep the 240k after deduct bank loan balance.

[Amber Woods]

Sorry for the confusion. I bought it for stay. I am PR so I can effort to sell it if I have no choice

If you bought in 2012, the price level today is about the price level in 2011/2012. How did you manage $240K in paper profit? Did you buy undervalued property in 2012 or you paid market price in 2012?

[Sandiwara]

If you bought in 2012, the price level today is about the price level in 2011/2012. How did you manage $240K in paper profit? Did you buy undervalued property in 2012 or you paid market price in 2012?

I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.

[teddybear]

You pay instalment from your own pocket to reduce the bank loan don't need to count?????

Oh ho ho, you are a real financial idiot don't know what to say loh..........................

I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.

[teddybear]

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.


Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!

That is why you should stay away from property since you don't understand the concept of returns.

If the Kia cost me 10k, I can rent out for 10 years. Easily can rent for 12k a year. You say regardless of price, not I say one. If the Kia cost $100, then the returns even higher.

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.

[Kelonguni]

The only problem is if you live in it. You pay the rent yourself for 20-30 years. Never get to enjoy a single cent of rent, and cannot afford to buy another property.

I would rather take 2 LH properties with 60 years or more each.

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.


Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!

[teddybear]

I am talking about investment properties lah!

Anyway, a freehold property is only about 20% more than a totally new 99-years leasehold property, and you can't even buy 2LH properties at the same location with the price of a Freehold property!

As to 60 years remaining lease left property, the rental you can get is probably only about half of the new 99-years LH property, so what is the point of getting 2LH with 60 years lease left with same total rental BUT you incur more property taxes, more maintenance funds costs, can't refinance your aging leasehold property with the banks when you need money etc?

The only problem is if you live in it. You pay the rent yourself for 20-30 years. Never get to enjoy a single cent of rent, and cannot afford to buy another property.

I would rather take 2 LH properties with 60 years or more each.

[Kelonguni]

What if it is Hillford, brand new, 60 years LH X 2?

Can rent out 2 properties versus your one precious FH?

I am talking about investment properties lah!

Anyway, a freehold property is only about 20% more than a totally new 99-years leasehold property, and you can't even buy 2LH properties at the same location with the price of a Freehold property!

As to 60 years remaining lease left property, the rental you can get is probably only about half of the new 99-years LH property, so what is the point of getting 2LH with 60 years lease left with same total rental BUT you incur more property taxes, more maintenance funds costs, can't refinance your aging leasehold property with the banks when you need money etc?

[teddybear]

Oh really?
I bet you have to hold these properties till the 60 years lease expire because:
1) Very few buyers (if any) would want to take over the babies from you.
2) You cannot refinance when your properties has <40 years lease left.
3) Your REAL return is actually very much lower than a freehold (by virtue that you only can collect rental for 60 years).
4) Your real costs of maintaining 2 properties is actually higher than maintaining 1 property (more property taxes, more maintenance and sinking fund costs, more repairs costs and refurnishing costs for next tenant, etc!)

Buying properties, after all, is about the value of land and capital appreciation (not rental income)!

I will never buy property purely for rental yield because I can make much more money playing Futures with those money!

It is the same principle as playing stocks...............
I can safely say I apply these principles I advocated to properties, stocks, and futures - and in all categories I am making very good money! Can you??????????

What if it is Hillford, brand new, 60 years LH X 2?

Can rent out 2 properties versus your one precious FH?

[aspirations]

anyway. amidst all the discussion going on above... the plot of land near serangoon gardens was recently sold at a bullish price.. and the expected selling psf is $1600 onwards.. and its not even city fringe..........!!!

[tonymontana]

I am not sure whether this is consider profit. The loan balance is 552k, 800k-552k = 248k.

it's not profit.

[Kelonguni]

Double your rental in the same vicinity of course double costs. From the 30th to 60th year, the rental income will be double that of a single FH. And that already works for many people.

Is just for illustration. My stocks are doing excellently well too. Futures is just betting for me.

Oh really?
I bet you have to hold these properties till the 60 years lease expire because:
1) Very few buyers (if any) would want to take over the babies from you.
2) You cannot refinance when your properties has <40 years lease left.
3) Your REAL return is actually very much lower than a freehold (by virtue that you only can collect rental for 60 years).
4) Your real costs of maintaining 2 properties is actually higher than maintaining 1 property (more property taxes, more maintenance and sinking fund costs, more repairs costs and refurnishing costs for next tenant, etc!)

Buying properties, after all, is about the value of land and capital appreciation (not rental income)!

I will never buy property purely for rental yield because I can make much more money playing Futures with those money!

It is the same principle as playing stocks...............
I can safely say I apply these principles I advocated to properties, stocks, and futures - and in all categories I am making very good money! Can you??????????

[anythingwhatever]

So if I can get an old OCR, left 50 years, at 100k. Rent out 2k a month. The returns is WOW.


Now, using your logic, if I get a FREEHOLD property, rent out for >1000 years at $2k pm, that is total > $24,000,000 = $24 MILLIONS! That is what I will call WOW WOW WOW!

The problem is, in Singapore, buildings won't last 1000 years lah...

Once the building go enbloc around 50-60 years age, even FH can easily become LH (as seen from the tricks by certain developers which are being followed by more of others).

In land-rich countries, I agree FH would be a lot more relevant.

SG1K? Think again bah.

[anythingwhatever]

Double your rental in the same vicinity of course double costs. From the 30th to 60th year, the rental income will be double that of a single FH. And that already works for many people.

Is just for illustration. My stocks are doing excellently well too. Futures is just betting for me.

Bro, would suggest saving your Oxygen on 1000 Ears Peek Prize lah, no need to produce more Carbon Dioxide for Global Warming.

If the Narrow-minded simply can't see value beyond the CCR, just let it be...