True or False.

[Arcachon]

TDSR, MSR and maximum loan quantum ensuring the sub-prime mortgage crisis never happen within our borders. Doom and gloom?

Property market picking up. Doom and gloom?

The possibility of Feds raising interest rates due to the potential recovery of US economy. Doom and gloom?


You need to switch off the HYPE and listen to THE MARKET. The market rewards those who act on her signs. The market abandons all those who ignore her warnings and her gifts. You need to be serious about your money and talk to professionals with skin in the game, and listen closely to the signs from the MARKET!!!

I've been seeing a lot of such posts since yesterday. These are the same entities that had no idea that the sub-prime crisis was looming, and have no idea what causes the financial collapse in 2008 and who were running around like headless chickens when the public demanded answers.
.
See folks, this is what I have been talking about all these years. You need to stop listening to news and hype. Watch some self-help videos on youtube and listen to the advice of the richest people in our world. They all say the same thing: do not watch the news. Those guys know what's up. They know they drive the economy with their businesses, and people in offices have no clue about the market and they know the news hype up things to earn their viewership.
.
Before you let the fear get to you, ask yourself these:
1) What is TDSR?
2) What is MSR?
3) Is there a limit to the amount of money you can borrow for a property?
4) Why were these 3 things put in place?
When you are done asking yourself these questions, google for the answers.
.
This "risk" we are talking about is actually just the Feds raising interest rates, which is a sign that the economy is recovering. If an improving economy is a risk, what isn't a risk for you? And if you are done finding the answers to the above questions you might find yourself wondering why is this article even written this way.
.
This is shoddy reporting, plain and simple. It is MAS' duty to inform the public of a possibility of raising interest rates when the US economy is looking to improve. So what's the big deal right? What could be affected? Loans can be affected by the impending raising interest rates. That's all there is to it.
.
The problem of locals over-leveraging is very minuscule, with the clever TDSR and MSR that was implemented over the past years. The maximum loan quantum also set a further safeguard. With these measures in place, you basically have around 20-30% of your property already paid down in cash/CPF. And in case you have not found the answer yet, those 3 things are Singapore's answer to the sub-prime mortgage crisis.
So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing.

http://www.straitstimes.com/business...ime=1480461965

[Kelonguni]

I fully agree with a caveat.

Those pre-TDSR properties might still be at a minor, moderated risk. We still see some of these fire sales once in a while, but not sure the circumstances behind them.

Actually MAS just give broad stroke picture of risks but it's just the journalist paints what she wishes to paint.

For me, I read over 1million foreigners in Singapore and more coming, rent can be soft and may not fully cover loans, but won't be the case of nobody to rent out to. As long as not too many properties (say 1 or two still servicing, the CPF OA top up of rent should be more than sufficient). Then there should be buffer of cash savings and monthly savings as well.

One thing though: property stocks unsold are somewhat at an all time low - 2.8 years left. Not sure what it exactly means.

[Kelonguni]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...s/3326786.html

The report above is a bit more balanced.

What may be worrying is actually the group that does not plan for retirement. Say for example a household purchasing a single property priced at maximum loan that the couple (even add parents) can service in a single property. Fast forward 20 to 30 years, this group may encounter retirement difficulties if health or occupation issues arise. Within the 20-30 years, they will be surviving at bare minimum.

For the landlord group, not a big issue actually even if rent does not fully cover mortgage as explained - more than enough buffers all round.

[DC33_2008]

Congrats to those landlords who have invested long time ago in particular FH and in great location. Just sit on paper gain even with price correction and lower rent. This is just a Property cycle and important to hold through the tough times.

[teddybear]

"So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing."

Regarding your statement above, actually it is those who thought they have 40% paid up cash in the property but almost 0% cash on hand that does not know anything about money or financing and in substance they are actually over-leveraging(!!!) (and that is where MAS' LTV rule of 60% will be killing them when the recession comes, and RECESSION is coming! Will see more force-selling of these people who have 40% paid up cash or more in property but no CASH on hand...........)

TDSR, MSR and maximum loan quantum ensuring the sub-prime mortgage crisis never happen within our borders. Doom and gloom?

Property market picking up. Doom and gloom?

The possibility of Feds raising interest rates due to the potential recovery of US economy. Doom and gloom?


You need to switch off the HYPE and listen to THE MARKET. The market rewards those who act on her signs. The market abandons all those who ignore her warnings and her gifts. You need to be serious about your money and talk to professionals with skin in the game, and listen closely to the signs from the MARKET!!!

I've been seeing a lot of such posts since yesterday. These are the same entities that had no idea that the sub-prime crisis was looming, and have no idea what causes the financial collapse in 2008 and who were running around like headless chickens when the public demanded answers.
.
See folks, this is what I have been talking about all these years. You need to stop listening to news and hype. Watch some self-help videos on youtube and listen to the advice of the richest people in our world. They all say the same thing: do not watch the news. Those guys know what's up. They know they drive the economy with their businesses, and people in offices have no clue about the market and they know the news hype up things to earn their viewership.
.
Before you let the fear get to you, ask yourself these:
1) What is TDSR?
2) What is MSR?
3) Is there a limit to the amount of money you can borrow for a property?
4) Why were these 3 things put in place?
When you are done asking yourself these questions, google for the answers.
.
This "risk" we are talking about is actually just the Feds raising interest rates, which is a sign that the economy is recovering. If an improving economy is a risk, what isn't a risk for you? And if you are done finding the answers to the above questions you might find yourself wondering why is this article even written this way.
.
This is shoddy reporting, plain and simple. It is MAS' duty to inform the public of a possibility of raising interest rates when the US economy is looking to improve. So what's the big deal right? What could be affected? Loans can be affected by the impending raising interest rates. That's all there is to it.
.
The problem of locals over-leveraging is very minuscule, with the clever TDSR and MSR that was implemented over the past years. The maximum loan quantum also set a further safeguard. With these measures in place, you basically have around 20-30% of your property already paid down in cash/CPF. And in case you have not found the answer yet, those 3 things are Singapore's answer to the sub-prime mortgage crisis.
So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing.

http://www.straitstimes.com/business...ime=1480461965

[Kelonguni]

Is there anything stopping the person from taking only 20 to 30% down payment and keeping 10 to 20% as reserve?

"So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing."

Regarding your statement above, actually it is those who thought they have 40% paid up cash in the property but almost 0% cash on hand that does not know anything about money or financing and in substance they are actually over-leveraging(!!!) (and that is where MAS' LTV rule of 60% will be killing them when the recession comes, and RECESSION is coming! Will see more force-selling of these people who have 40% paid up cash or more in property but no CASH on hand...........)

[Arcachon]

TB is right, just finish talking to my friend about HDB loan.

Which is better?

A) Loan 40K from CPF and repay on monthly rest basis for 4 years and leave 40k in CPF for 4 years

B) Use 40K in CPF to clear the loan.

Assuming you have 40K in CPF and outstanding loan of 40K. You are still working and contributing to CPF and enough to pay the monthly mortgage.

Can someone do the math, thank you.

[Kelonguni]

A. Pay up 42159 after 4 years based on 2.6% interest. Some accrued interest around 2198

B. Paid 40000 after 4 years with 4154 accrued interest owed to CPF based on 2.5% interest.

Unless your option A includes using CPF for investment... A also gives more allowance for sudden situations during the 4 years. Or unless you add 1% extra interest for first 20K in CPF. Then calculations differ.

TB is right, just finish talking to my friend about HDB loan.

Which is better?

A) Loan 40K from CPF and repay on monthly rest basis for 4 years and leave 40k in CPF for 4 years

B) Use 40K in CPF to clear the loan.

Assuming you have 40K in CPF and outstanding loan of 40K. You are still working and contributing to CPF and enough to pay the monthly mortgage.

Can someone do the math, thank you.

[Arcachon]

Thanks, My friend told me and I believe a lot more will chose to clear the loan.

[DMCK]

many people feel good to be loan free

[Kelonguni]

many people feel good to be loan free

I think good to be loan free for at least / at most 1 property for the worst case provision. Then you can do whatever you want.

[Arcachon]

many people feel good to be loan free

After I explained to my friend, you should take a look at his face.

They feel good when they don't know.

Image all the interest one could earn by not paying the loan and instead just leave it in CPF

[Kelonguni]

Now you know why MAS emphasized the dangers of property and corporate bonds...


Up to $2 billion of Singapore Savings Bonds to be offered in 2017: MAS

The first savings bond will be issued on Jan 3, 2017, and up to $150 million will be available, said the Monetary Authority of Singapore in a press release on Thursday (Dec 1).

A new savings bond will continue to be issued every month. Individuals may apply for the SB JAN17 bond from 6pm on Dec 1 to 9pm on Dec 27.

[minority]

"So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing."

Regarding your statement above, actually it is those who thought they have 40% paid up cash in the property but almost 0% cash on hand that does not know anything about money or financing and in substance they are actually over-leveraging(!!!) (and that is where MAS' LTV rule of 60% will be killing them when the recession comes, and RECESSION is coming! Will see more force-selling of these people who have 40% paid up cash or more in property but no CASH on hand...........)

Wat a dumb analogy. Got some one pt the gun at the guy to take at 40% paid up to buy a 2nd property? Got people force them to make this decision? if the die die want to buy property wont they have bought 2 property with 20% down each even if LTV is 80%?

so you anal logy is really anal.

[Arcachon]

Wat a dumb analogy. Got some one pt the gun at the guy to take at 40% paid up to buy a 2nd property? Got people force them to make this decision? if the die die want to buy property wont they have bought 2 property with 20% down each even if LTV is 80%?

so you anal logy is really anal.

Yes, Ah Kong did it.

[teddybear]

minority,
You the BIGGEST BLOODY LIAR here, you are still around and now trying to lie again?

Hei, I thought you have disappeared because you still HAVE NOT ANSWER my questions to your CLAIMS!:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!


Read here:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...971#post521971

Can you SHOW US official CPF records which states the above?
If not, they must have been all LIES by you!

Wat a dumb analogy. Got some one pt the gun at the guy to take at 40% paid up to buy a 2nd property? Got people force them to make this decision? if the die die want to buy property wont they have bought 2 property with 20% down each even if LTV is 80%?

so you anal logy is really anal.

"So anybody who talks about over-leveraging when you have 20-30% of the property paid up in cash does not know anything about money or financing."

Regarding your statement above, actually it is those who thought they have 40% paid up cash in the property but almost 0% cash on hand that does not know anything about money or financing and in substance they are actually over-leveraging(!!!) (and that is where MAS' LTV rule of 60% will be killing them when the recession comes, and RECESSION is coming! Will see more force-selling of these people who have 40% paid up cash or more in property but no CASH on hand...........)

[Arcachon]

Another True or False.

We(Singapore) are headed for the same path as Japan.
Let's not pretend good parenting alone can solve this issue. It takes good investment decisions on your part right now. You need to know how to use money. If you are spending big money on something, you need to make sure it will make money for you or you're better off not buying it to begin with.
.
Where am i going with this? I am talking about your decisions of blindly choosing HDB BTOs. If HDB's growth rate continue to remain stagnant around the +-1% region (which it probably will be), then with the introduction of ECs, we seem to be heading towards a future where middle class live in ECs while lower income class live in HDBs. Think about it. Let's say a HDB of around $600,000. You pay 3% a year for the next 10 years and you will have paid up to 30% of property taxes for that property. That's around $180,000. Even supposing your HDB is one of the few area which experience high growth, let's just give it a ballpark figure and assume you have 10% appreciation while the rest of the country dance around the +-1% region. That's still a net loss of $120,000 over 10 years.
Compared to the appreciation in ECs, while they make profits of $200,000 and above everytime they move to a different place, your property is bleeding money. Why is that?
.
I'd tell you why.
1) You went the old way of doing what your parents did. You think the decisions made 3 decades ago still applies to the current economy.
2) You do not have sufficient knowledge of the current economy.
3) You do not know how to use money, and you do not know anyone who knows how to better use money.
4) You listen to the bullshit story that people buy a home to live and die in that very spot.
Let me tell you something. That place is just concrete and dust until you own it. That's what it was, and what it will be. With a property tax of 3%, IF YOU LIVED IN THE SAME PROPERTY FOR 33 YEARS YOU WILL HAVE PAID FOR THE SAME PLACE TWICE. Most people do not live in the same place all their lives. You heard this from the keyboard warriors saying they just want a place to live and die in. You hear this all the time but in reality, when the lower income people know that they can sell their current property and get another one while still having a net profit of $50k-$80k, they do it in a heartbeat; and if they know they could make a net profit of more than $100k they would have signed the deal YESTERDAY. So if the rich and the lower income classes are doing this, why do you want to remain stuck in the same property bleeding out money in taxes? Your family will still be your family. You can always forge new memories. What you cannot do is go back in time to make the right decisions so you turn a loss of -$120,000 into a profit of +$300,000.
.
You probably never heard of this or even considered this before you read this post.
The only question that remains now is: "How do i learn how to make better use of my money?"

http://bloom.bg/2fIQ3D4

[minority]

minority,
You the BIGGEST BLOODY LIAR here, you are still around and now trying to lie again?

Hei, I thought you have disappeared because you still HAVE NOT ANSWER my questions to your CLAIMS!:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!


Read here:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...971#post521971

Can you SHOW US official CPF records which states the above?
If not, they must have been all LIES by you!

LOL!!! YOU LIKE TO MISQUOTE AND TWIST WHAT EVER BULL SHIT AS FACT!!! YOUR ANAL LOGY IS REALLY ANAL! YOU ARE FREE TO PROOF ME WRONG.

DONT COME MIS QUOTE SOME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

[Arcachon]

Anyone spot the incorrect figures.

[Kelonguni]

Anyone spot the incorrect figures.

So obvious still need to spot? Obviously someone who never owned property.

[teddybear]

Ha ha ha!
that one has never owned property?!..........

So obvious still need to spot? Obviously someone who never owned property.

Anyone spot the incorrect figures.

[Kelonguni]

Ha ha ha!
that one has never owned property?!..........

Not you... You definitely have owned only CCR FH property(ies).

It's the latest article that was posted by Arcachon. Actually the Bloomberg post about Japan, I find it quite entertaining and educational though.

[Kelonguni]

Supposing one buys a HDB for 600K.

Downpayment say for example is 60K, loan 540K. After 10 years, the loan left is 404K. The interest paid is roughly 120K, and the amount paid to mortgage is roughly 135K. (If use CPF loan)

So assuming 1% growth in price a year, the property is worth 662K 10 years later.

If the fella sells his HDB at the 10th year, he gets back 660K - 404K = 258K after having paid the downpayment and mortgage and interest of 60K + 120K + 135K = 315K.

Wow, he just paid 57K for 10 years of ownership. Good deal or bad deal, paying $475 per month for 10 years to live in and/or rent out the property, say rent out 1 or 2 rooms for 5 years then rent out whole unit for another 5 years?

And if he has the guts to loan from bank rather than CPF, the interest differences will also be interesting to calculate although unpredictable. Another possibility is to put down a larger downpayment.

True or false?

[teddybear]

Ha ha ha!

What misquote, what anal logy lah, still no proof to prove right, just false accusation only?

But on the other hand, I have PROOF that you are LYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
minority, you are JUST such a SUPER BLOODY LIAR LIAR...........

Very simple, you LIED that:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!


and now you know that you have NOTHING concrete to back up YOUR FALSE CLAIMS and hence you can only avoid my questions regarding your FALSE CLAIMS.............

LOL!!! YOU LIKE TO MISQUOTE AND TWIST WHAT EVER BULL SHIT AS FACT!!! YOUR ANAL LOGY IS REALLY ANAL! YOU ARE FREE TO PROOF ME WRONG.

DONT COME MIS QUOTE SOME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

minority,
You the BIGGEST BLOODY LIAR here, you are still around and now trying to lie again?

Hei, I thought you have disappeared because you still HAVE NOT ANSWER my questions to your CLAIMS!:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!


Read here:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/sho...971#post521971

Can you SHOW US official CPF records which states the above?
If not, they must have been all LIES by you!

[minority]

Ha ha ha!

What misquote, what anal logy lah, still no proof to prove right, just false accusation only?

But on the other hand, I have PROOF that you are LYING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
minority, you are JUST such a SUPER BLOODY LIAR LIAR...........

Very simple, you LIED that:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!


and now you know that you have NOTHING concrete to back up YOUR FALSE CLAIMS and hence you can only avoid my questions regarding your FALSE CLAIMS.............

why beat ard the bush answer the question on your ANAL LOGY LEH?? cannot answer? coz its plain bulls shit?

[Arcachon]

Supposing one buys a HDB for 600K.

Downpayment say for example is 60K, loan 540K. After 10 years, the loan left is 404K. The interest paid is roughly 120K, and the amount paid to mortgage is roughly 135K. (If use CPF loan)

So assuming 1% growth in price a year, the property is worth 662K 10 years later.

If the fella sells his HDB at the 10th year, he gets back 660K - 404K = 258K after having paid the downpayment and mortgage and interest of 60K + 120K + 135K = 315K.

Wow, he just paid 57K for 10 years of ownership. Good deal or bad deal, paying $475 per month for 10 years to live in and/or rent out the property, say rent out 1 or 2 rooms for 5 years then rent out whole unit for another 5 years?

And if he has the guts to loan from bank rather than CPF, the interest differences will also be interesting to calculate although unpredictable. Another possibility is to put down a larger downpayment.

True or false?

True only if it is 1% and resale. BTO and EC will need another formula to calculate. In low growth period can also conside as a form of force saving. If more than one property it can also use as asset accumulation.

[teddybear]

Don't understand, property prices dropping, regardless of private or HDB flats because of so many hard-hitting property cooling measures and tightening of foreigners coming in, and government is no longer pursuing asset appreciation for HDB flats, you still want to buy property and expect asset appreciation???
So many properties in the pipeline and few foreigners coming in (Singapore going into recession, even by then Government open big gate also few will come because no new jobs available, unless to replace Singaporeans? So, by then, you buy properties to invest to rent to who hah?

True only if it is 1% and resale. BTO and EC will need another formula to calculate. In low growth period can also conside as a form of force saving. If more than one property it can also use as asset accumulation.

[Kelonguni]

True only if it is 1% and resale. BTO and EC will need another formula to calculate. In low growth period can also conside as a form of force saving. If more than one property it can also use as asset accumulation.

But truth be told, I have never heard of anyone buying a BTO at 600K aim to sell at 662K 10 years later.

Think Bidadari and Clementi BTOs selling for 600K, I think minimum to get them to consider selling is 800K or 900K after 5 years.

[Arcachon]

Don't understand, property prices dropping, regardless of private or HDB flats because of so many hard-hitting property cooling measures and tightening of foreigners coming in, and government is no longer pursuing asset appreciation for HDB flats, you still want to buy property and expect asset appreciation???
So many properties in the pipeline and few foreigners coming in (Singapore going into recession, even by then Government open big gate also few will come because no new jobs available, unless to replace Singaporeans? So, by then, you buy properties to invest to rent to who hah?

There will be a time when Singaporean need to rent instead of buying. Money printing cannot stop whether we like it or not, keep your money in the bank can only see it depreciated right in front of your eyes.

After spending Billion on infrastructure, whether we like it or not Land price cannot stay at current value.

We send the cheap Labor home whether we like it or not Labor cost is going up.

When oil price go up, whether we like it or not everything got to go up.

My father once ask me why I want to buy a 5 room HDB when I only got one son. He bought a 3 room HDB with 4 son and his brother and mother stay with us.

We use to be able to buy as many room as we like but now you don't have the salary you don't buy what you want.

If you notice the pipeline is still there but the number of property in the pipeline is get lesser.

[Kelonguni]

I think as SERS proceed over time we will see more compromises on space. Maybe size still the same but more dense and blocks built closer.

Nonetheless, I think Singaporean home ownership scheme will not change much, at least not in my lifetime. Only move to Tengah and ultimately Lim Chu Kang / Tekong. Maybe size smaller and live closer and closer, more levels per block above ground and underground.

Private property is another story - the Govt does not owe anyone a private property. Those who wait and wait will only get more and more lugi offerings over time. HK has demonstrated human limits and slowly bit by bit, we will move there. I think for HK car park lots are sold separately, and some developments seem to be getting there.

There will be a time when Singaporean need to rent instead of buying. Money printing cannot stop whether we like it or not, keep your money in the bank can only see it depreciated right in front of your eyes.

After spending Billion on infrastructure, whether we like it or not Land price cannot stay at current value.

We send the cheap Labor home whether we like it or not Labor cost is going up.

When oil price go up, whether we like it or not everything got to go up.

My father once ask me why I want to buy a 5 room HDB when I only got one son. He bought a 3 room HDB with 4 son and his brother and mother stay with us.

We use to be able to buy as many room as we like but now you don't have the salary you don't buy what you want.

If you notice the pipeline is still there but the number of property in the pipeline is get lesser.