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Thread: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

  1. #1
    Lou Guest

    Default Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Hi all,

    I don't whether there is a similar post like this before, but don't you guys think that the majority of the newer condos' facades look the same. Cubic, floor to ceiling glass, etc.. I'm neutral to the look, functional in my opinon, some are nice but most are getting bloody boring Imagine what they will look like 15 years down the road, do you think the present 'look' will age well?

  2. #2
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou
    Hi all,

    I don't whether there is a similar post like this before, but don't you guys think that the majority of the newer condos' facades look the same. Cubic, floor to ceiling glass, etc.. I'm neutral to the look, functional in my opinon, some are nice but most are getting bloody boring Imagine what they will look like 15 years down the road, do you think the present 'look' will age well?
    What is not boring to you?

  3. #3
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Actually I don't think any condo is designed to last for more than 40-50 years, which is why I find some Singaporeans' insistence on distinguishing leasehold condos from freehold condos so puzzling - sooner or later the building will age and become obsolete, freehold or leasehold. I'd bet at least 50% of all the condos standing in Singapore right now will not be there 50 years from now. Did your neighbourhood look the same in 1958 as it did now?

  4. #4
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Leasehold you can buy nothing in 50 yrs time, Freehold you buy a contemporay one.

  5. #5
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Actually I don't think any condo is designed to last for more than 40-50 years, which is why I find some Singaporeans' insistence on distinguishing leasehold condos from freehold condos so puzzling - sooner or later the building will age and become obsolete, freehold or leasehold. I'd bet at least 50% of all the condos standing in Singapore right now will not be there 50 years from now. Did your neighbourhood look the same in 1958 as it did now?

    Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    But the leases are NOT for the buildings, per se, but for the LAND. In other words, if your condo is built on freehold land, then you can always tear down the buildings and rebuild it anytime you want, whether 50 years later, 30 years later or even 10 years later if you (and your neighbours) have the funds and want a change of style, e.g. from a Spanish Villa to a Hawaiian theme or a Cottage one.

    Also, if your condo is leasehold and when you pass the half-way mark, the market value will start to decline while your neighbour, a freehold property, may be enjoying the boom. Also banks don't lend to condos with less than 50 years remaining lease.

    This is why you can buy a huge bungalow off Bukit Timah area for just $200,000 because the lease has a balance of only 23 years, but for freehold, it would cost millions.

    Hope the above helps.

    Francis

  6. #6
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    Lease can be top up with quite reasonable cost and this is common practice in all the places that I live all over the world. This is the main reason many LH properties were selling at record price in enbloc sales.

  7. #7
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    Lease can be top up with quite reasonable cost and this is common practice in all the places that I live all over the world. This is the main reason many LH properties were selling at record price in enbloc sales.
    Dream on enbloc dreamers.

  8. #8
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Dream on enbloc dreamers.
    En blocs come in waves.

    Sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it picks up.

    The Government increased plot ratios in order to enable en blocs.

    That's the long term plan of the Government - i.e. to increase intensity of living space to accomodate more people.

    Even HDB itself has the Selective En Bloc Scheme (SERS).

    En blocs are part of the grand scheme of things.

    In fact, older properties with en bloc potential are still the best real estate investment, compared to brand new condos from developers.

  9. #9
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Compare the psfppr of the enbloc prices between LH and FH and you will realise the difference. The best LH enbloc is Farrer Court which only has a psfppr of 700psfppr. The FH ones are way above - I believe u can go to "enbloc achieved" portion of this website to see the numbers. Therein lies the difference in value - and it is significant.

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    Lease can be top up with quite reasonable cost and this is common practice in all the places that I live all over the world. This is the main reason many LH properties were selling at record price in enbloc sales.

  10. #10
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Buildings can last hundreds of years if well maintained. In fact, the enblocs are more out of greed than a real need to tear down those properties. Sometimes, I wonder if there is a need to chase the newest "trend" in housing, like yourself. Now is the office building all-glass look, and the past "resort look" or "colonial look" condos become out-of-date. Then 10 years later, u may yearn for the spaceship look or whatever that is "in" and therefore want to enbloc your property, even if it is in good shape. It is really a waste of scare building and construction resources.

    Anyway, enbloc is almost dead now. I know there are people who still believes everyone will kena one enbloc windfall in their lifetime because all properties will get old and enbloc. I take a different view. Property developers want to make money at the end of the day. If it is not economically viable to enbloc your property, they will not do it, even if u offer at a huge discount, let alone make money. So buy a place that you like to stay, don't always dream of an enbloc windfall.

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    Lease can be top up with quite reasonable cost and this is common practice in all the places that I live all over the world. This is the main reason many LH properties were selling at record price in enbloc sales.

  11. #11
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Buildings can last hundreds of years if well maintained. In fact, the enblocs are more out of greed than a real need to tear down those properties. Sometimes, I wonder if there is a need to chase the newest "trend" in housing, like yourself. Now is the office building all-glass look, and the past "resort look" or "colonial look" condos become out-of-date. Then 10 years later, u may yearn for the spaceship look or whatever that is "in" and therefore want to enbloc your property, even if it is in good shape. It is really a waste of scare building and construction resources.

    Anyway, enbloc is almost dead now. I know there are people who still believes everyone will kena one enbloc windfall in their lifetime because all properties will get old and enbloc. I take a different view. Property developers want to make money at the end of the day. If it is not economically viable to enbloc your property, they will not do it, even if u offer at a huge discount, let alone make money. So buy a place that you like to stay, don't always dream of an enbloc windfall.


    Please mind your language and stop putting words in other peoples' mouths.

    You are free to state your views when you say "Sometimes, I wonder if there is a need to chase the newest "trend" in housing, like yourself.", but adding the last two words "like yourself" is a false allegation and unfair attack because I NEVER said I want to "chase the newest trend"; I merely said some owners may want to change the "THEME" of the condo. I did not even touch upon your concept of "newest trend". Please watch your words.

    You appeared to be a sour grape that lost out to the en bloc frenzy because the topic of this tread is about "ageing of condos" as in "Some Condos Age Well, Most Don't...", but you diverted to your bitter en bloc sickness.

    While I can agree with you that many, if not most, of those enbloc during this cycle (not those in the 1990s) are out of pure greed, especially with a group of "condo raiders" who bought into an estate, formed a sale committee and tried to force a collective sale, not all are greedy.

    In the 1990s, many of the en blocs were out of necessity because they were owned by a large number of retirees without the funds to refurnish an ailing estate.

    One of them is Eng Kong Green owned mostly by retired school teachers. When the building aged and funds were needed to replace all the underground service pipes, sewers, etc., the retirees simply could not afford it.

    But interestingly, Eng Kong Green was not enbloc-ed; instead, they got a developer who re-developed the estate and returned one for one to the original owners, with the extras to cover the cost of construction and the developers' profits. If you visit Eng Kong Green in Eng Kong Crescent, you will see a row of houses just outside the condo. These were the units built on the extra land given to the developer to cover their construction costs and profits.

    Please be constructive in your postings. This is an informative website to share knowledge and experience and not to pick a fight: if you are a fighting cock, please go to KL and join UMNO, BN, Mahathir and Anwar

  12. #12
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Allow me to offer my two-cents worth of experience, having managed condos for more than 30 years.

    Firstly, buildings are generally able to last about 50 years in our climate, except those located near the sea where the salt sprays will cause premature ageing, reducing the lifespan to about 40 years. Concrete dries up and become porous leading to more interfloor seepage, wires and sewers need replacement, etc. So you are correct in your first point.

    But there is a big difference between freehold (or estate in perpetuity) and a 99-year leasehold.

    Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely.

    Lease can be top up with quite reasonable cost and this is common practice in all the places that I live all over the world. This is the main reason many LH properties were selling at record price in enbloc sales.


    When you are replying, please leave a couple of lines so that your reply stands out, otherwise it seems the whole of the above belongs to one writer.

    While leases can be topped up, it is up to SLA to decide (a) whether to allow the top up, (b) the price, and (c) the conditions for a topping up.

    In all cases, a lease CANNOT be topped up without any improvement to the site and it is a standard requirement that topping up can only be allowed if the site is to be re-developed.

    Assuming you bought a piece of 99-year leasehold land and you are rich enough to build a small boutique condo, just 20 units, and with your extended family and other relatives, you own all the 20 units. For this reason, you put extra efforts to give the condo a theme and special design.

    Then come the end of the lease. I can almost guarantee you, 99.9%, that SLA will not simply top up your lease to another 99yrs without a redevelopment, and even if they do, you would probably find that the top up fee exceeds your original cost of the land and construction by several times.

    I have more than 30 years' of experience in this field and had handled some two dozen applications for lease extensions -- all with one mandatory condition: estate must be re-developed.

  13. #13
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Compare the psfppr of the enbloc prices between LH and FH and you will realise the difference. The best LH enbloc is Farrer Court which only has a psfppr of 700psfppr. The FH ones are way above - I believe u can go to "enbloc achieved" portion of this website to see the numbers. Therein lies the difference in value - and it is significant.


    You are perfectly correct. It is pure commonsense that if two properties are in the same location, of the same site, with the same facing and quality of finish, i.e. ceteris paribus, but one is 99 LH while the other is FH, and if both are priced the same, any buyer preferring the LH must be an inmate from Woodbridge!

    In fact, you DON'T own a LH property: you lease it. As an accountant, we depreciate LH properties, but do not do so for FH properties.

  14. #14
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Who is picking a fight here? Please reread my posting above. In no way a normal person will find it offensive. Not everyone believes that every old property can be enbloced forever. You may take a different view, fine. I would suggest if you cannot swallow alternative views, then don't read. And I believe my post was a lot more polite than yours.

    I despise people who call names and say things without basis. Why did you call me a sour grape that lost out on the enbloc frenzy? On what basis? This is totally uncalled for! Please take a step back and re-read your posts vs mine, for God's sake.

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Buildings can last hundreds of years if well maintained. In fact, the enblocs are more out of greed than a real need to tear down those properties. Sometimes, I wonder if there is a need to chase the newest "trend" in housing, like yourself. Now is the office building all-glass look, and the past "resort look" or "colonial look" condos become out-of-date. Then 10 years later, u may yearn for the spaceship look or whatever that is "in" and therefore want to enbloc your property, even if it is in good shape. It is really a waste of scare building and construction resources.

    Anyway, enbloc is almost dead now. I know there are people who still believes everyone will kena one enbloc windfall in their lifetime because all properties will get old and enbloc. I take a different view. Property developers want to make money at the end of the day. If it is not economically viable to enbloc your property, they will not do it, even if u offer at a huge discount, let alone make money. So buy a place that you like to stay, don't always dream of an enbloc windfall.




    Please mind your language and stop putting words in other peoples' mouths.

    You are free to state your views when you say "Sometimes, I wonder if there is a need to chase the newest "trend" in housing, like yourself.", but adding the last two words "like yourself" is a false allegation and unfair attack because I NEVER said I want to "chase the newest trend"; I merely said some owners may want to change the "THEME" of the condo. I did not even touch upon your concept of "newest trend". Please watch your words.

    You appeared to be a sour grape that lost out to the en bloc frenzy because the topic of this tread is about "ageing of condos" as in "Some Condos Age Well, Most Don't...", but you diverted to your bitter en bloc sickness.

    While I can agree with you that many, if not most, of those enbloc during this cycle (not those in the 1990s) are out of pure greed, especially with a group of "condo raiders" who bought into an estate, formed a sale committee and tried to force a collective sale, not all are greedy.

    In the 1990s, many of the en blocs were out of necessity because they were owned by a large number of retirees without the funds to refurnish an ailing estate.

    One of them is Eng Kong Green owned mostly by retired school teachers. When the building aged and funds were needed to replace all the underground service pipes, sewers, etc., the retirees simply could not afford it.

    But interestingly, Eng Kong Green was not enbloc-ed; instead, they got a developer who re-developed the estate and returned one for one to the original owners, with the extras to cover the cost of construction and the developers' profits. If you visit Eng Kong Green in Eng Kong Crescent, you will see a row of houses just outside the condo. These were the units built on the extra land given to the developer to cover their construction costs and profits.

    Please be constructive in your postings. This is an informative website to share knowledge and experience and not to pick a fight: if you are a fighting cock, please go to KL and join UMNO, BN, Mahathir and Anwar

  15. #15
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Thanks for the insightful post. Query, what are the charges for the lease topup? It appears SLA has the final say in the prices and whether the topup can be approved. What if the SLA (the landlord) levy market prices, which is probably the fairest basis? If a landlord were to renew a lease, he has every reason to ask for market prices. If that is the case, then one might be better off buying a brand new 99 year lease property. Contrary to popular beliefs, 99 years is not a very long time. A person who bought a property in his 20s will only be 70+ when the lease is up for renewel. So it is likely that either this person or his next generation will kena the lease topup/expiry for a 99 years property.

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered



    When you are replying, please leave a couple of lines so that your reply stands out, otherwise it seems the whole of the above belongs to one writer.

    While leases can be topped up, it is up to SLA to decide (a) whether to allow the top up, (b) the price, and (c) the conditions for a topping up.

    In all cases, a lease CANNOT be topped up without any improvement to the site and it is a standard requirement that topping up can only be allowed if the site is to be re-developed.

    Assuming you bought a piece of 99-year leasehold land and you are rich enough to build a small boutique condo, just 20 units, and with your extended family and other relatives, you own all the 20 units. For this reason, you put extra efforts to give the condo a theme and special design.

    Then come the end of the lease. I can almost guarantee you, 99.9%, that SLA will not simply top up your lease to another 99yrs without a redevelopment, and even if they do, you would probably find that the top up fee exceeds your original cost of the land and construction by several times.

    I have more than 30 years' of experience in this field and had handled some two dozen applications for lease extensions -- all with one mandatory condition: estate must be re-developed.

  16. #16
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered



    When you are replying, please leave a couple of lines so that your reply stands out, otherwise it seems the whole of the above belongs to one writer.

    While leases can be topped up, it is up to SLA to decide (a) whether to allow the top up, (b) the price, and (c) the conditions for a topping up.

    In all cases, a lease CANNOT be topped up without any improvement to the site and it is a standard requirement that topping up can only be allowed if the site is to be re-developed.

    Assuming you bought a piece of 99-year leasehold land and you are rich enough to build a small boutique condo, just 20 units, and with your extended family and other relatives, you own all the 20 units. For this reason, you put extra efforts to give the condo a theme and special design.

    Then come the end of the lease. I can almost guarantee you, 99.9%, that SLA will not simply top up your lease to another 99yrs without a redevelopment, and even if they do, you would probably find that the top up fee exceeds your original cost of the land and construction by several times.

    I have more than 30 years' of experience in this field and had handled some two dozen applications for lease extensions -- all with one mandatory condition: estate must be re-developed.
    Will u be around in another 99 yrs times? So how u know? Can your experience foretell 99 yrs later?

  17. #17
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    Compare the psfppr of the enbloc prices between LH and FH and you will realise the difference. The best LH enbloc is Farrer Court which only has a psfppr of 700psfppr. The FH ones are way above - I believe u can go to "enbloc achieved" portion of this website to see the numbers. Therein lies the difference in value - and it is significant.




    You are perfectly correct. It is pure commonsense that if two properties are in the same location, of the same site, with the same facing and quality of finish, i.e. ceteris paribus, but one is 99 LH while the other is FH, and if both are priced the same, any buyer preferring the LH must be an inmate from Woodbridge!

    In fact, you DON'T own a LH property: you lease it. As an accountant, we depreciate LH properties, but do not do so for FH properties.
    LH is for speculations, Freehold is for long term investment or own stay.

  18. #18
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Who is picking a fight here? Please reread my posting above. In no way a normal person will find it offensive. Not everyone believes that every old property can be enbloced forever. You may take a different view, fine. I would suggest if you cannot swallow alternative views, then don't read. And I believe my post was a lot more polite than yours.

    I despise people who call names and say things without basis. Why did you call me a sour grape that lost out on the enbloc frenzy? On what basis? This is totally uncalled for! Please take a step back and re-read your posts vs mine, for God's sake.

    He is the Resident of IMH.

  19. #19
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    April 6, 2008

    PROPERTY

    7 signs of a property slowdown

    Buyers seem to be gaining ground again in the private homes market but consultants say it's far from crashing yet

    By Joyce Teo, Property Correspondent


    After rocketing to dizzying heights last year, the private homes market has stalled because of the global credit crunch - an external factor that took the market by surprise.

    The withdrawal of the deferred payment scheme last year has also dampened demand somewhat.

    Sales volumes and interest have fizzled out just as quickly as the market surged last year.

    While many players hang on to the notion that strong fundamentals - low interest rates, for instance - will support the market, sentiment has fast melted away.

    Is the property market slowing to a crawl? We examine the mounting evidence.

    1 Growth in home prices weakens

    The Urban Redevelopment Authority's (URA's) early estimate of first-quarter data showed a 4.2 per cent rise in private home prices against 6.8 per cent in the previous quarter and 31 per cent last year.

    Consultants expect price growth to weaken. Prices, especially for high-end homes, might fall but not significantly as sellers are still reluctant to accept lower prices, said a seasoned property agent. 'There's no urgency to do so.'

    2 Launches are held back

    Developers have ample properties to sell but most continue to hold back launches. Some small ones have gone ahead but the response has been unimpressive.

    With buyers and sellers choosing to remain on the sidelines as the global impact of a slowing United States economy remains uncertain, the market is largely quiet.

    URA data showed that only 185 new private homes were sold in February, down from 328 in January. Last year, developers sold 14,811 new homes.

    3 Collective sales have died down

    This market is dead, for now at least, as developers stay away and new rules make it tougher for owners to sell en bloc.

    So far this year, only one sale has been done compared with 26 in the first quarter of last year.

    And one potential sale - that of Makeway View in Newton - was cancelled after the buyer, Bravo Building Construction, said it had found out that it would have to pay a higher-than-expected development charge.

    Owners of some estates are starting to lower their price expectations.

    Pinetree Condominium in Balmoral Park, for instance, was recently relaunched at a lower indicative price of $128 million - down from around $145 million last September, but still well above the 2006 price tag of $59 million.

    4 Investor funds pull out or hold off

    Islamic investment bank Kuwait Finance House, which agreed last December to buy 97 Goodwood Residence units for $818.4 million from GuocoLand, allowed the purchase option to lapse.

    Both parties said last month that they were still in talks but did not provide clear reasons for the pullout. Industry sources had speculated that the fund's price - a record for the condo's area - was too high.

    A recent DTZ Research report said some funds are holding off making investments, at least for the first half of this year, until the extent of the US slowdown and its global impact become clearer.

    5 Sellers hand out discounts galore

    In the resale market, sellers are getting more flexible. There are more desperate sellers in the market this year, property agents said.

    Some want to sell one or two of their properties because they had bought some units under the deferred payment scheme, and payment is due in six months to a year, one agent said.

    For new launches or sales of new units, some developers are also willing to give discounts when asked, while others offer stamp duty rebates to attract buyers.

    6 Agents less sought after, ads dwindle

    Property agents have more free time and are taking out fewer advertisements because of the poor response.

    Last year, a seller's unit could be marketed by five to six agents, with the deal going to the agent who garnered the best price.

    But this year, a seller might go with one agent, said HSR Property Group's executive director, Mr Eric Cheng.

    On average, an ad for a reasonably priced unit could attract 12 to 15 calls last year. That is now down by half, he said. Prime, high-end homes have it worse, he added, noting that there could be no calls at all for some ads.

    'I have not been advertising since Nov 15 because I could see sales volume falling,' said agent Andrew Soh.

    7 Buyers toss in low bids to test the waters

    Some developers have offered rather low bids in recent land tenders, which signals a slowing property market.

    The Government in mid-March decided not to award a landed housing site in Jurong West as the bids were too low.

    Then, the lowest bid for a Yishun condo site came in at just $95 per sq ft of potential gross floor area.

    'The developers are pricing in the risks of falling prices,' said Knight Frank's director for consultancy and research, Mr Nicholas Mak.

    'Given thin volume, they could also be hoping that there is no competition.'

    Going forward, optimistic players are waiting for the market to regain some of its former glory in the next six months.

    The pessimistic ones are prepared to ride out the whole year and possibly the next.

    'If volume remains thin, there is a chance that private home prices might weaken this year, but the market is not expected to crash,' said Mr Mak.
    The 8th sign is the loud thuds heard due to speculators jumping off high rises.

  20. #20
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    I know of people (I think there was a Today article) who thinks the lease will be renewed free because to many leasehold property le. I doubt so. Some believe garmen will be "nice" and give a discount. Whatever it is, still got to pay money to top up. It's whether u want to risk it or not lor. Cannot always hope garment will nice nice top up free one. But if garmen go by the book of the law, then once lease expire, well, they can do anything, renew the lease at market, take away the lease and lease to someone else or for own use etc... so it all depends on how much u want to be exposed to this uncertainty. But one thing I'm quite sure. It is not free.


    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered

    Will u be around in another 99 yrs times? So how u know? Can your experience foretell 99 yrs later?

  21. #21
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]I know of people (I think there was a Today article) who thinks the lease will be renewed free because to many leasehold property le. I doubt so. Some believe garmen will be "nice" and give a discount. Whatever it is, still got to pay money to top up. It's whether u want to risk it or not lor. Cannot always hope garment will nice nice top up free one. But if garmen go by the book of the law, then once lease expire, well, they can do anything, renew the lease at market, take away the lease and lease to someone else or for own use etc... so it all depends on how much u want to be exposed to this uncertainty. But one thing I'm quite sure. It is not free.


    can you pls post the article here ..or is there any govt website which can provide information on rules /regulation regd 99 leaseholds ?

  22. #22
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    "Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely."

    "But the leases are NOT for the buildings, per se, but for the LAND. In other words, if your condo is built on freehold land, then you can always tear down the buildings and rebuild it anytime you want, whether 50 years later, 30 years later or even 10 years later if you (and your neighbours) have the funds and want a change of style, e.g. from a Spanish Villa to a Hawaiian theme or a Cottage one."

    "Also, if your condo is leasehold and when you pass the half-way mark, the market value will start to decline while your neighbour, a freehold property, may be enjoying the boom. Also banks don't lend to condos with less than 50 years remaining lease."



    My view:
    While this may or may not be true (I'm not in the construction line so I don't know), unless a building is really aesthetically pleasing or has some obvious historical value, I don't think every building needs to be conserved beyond its period for safe occupation. I understand that freehold supposedly means you own a piece of that land forever, and yes, in theory, the owners can do anything, make any changes to their collective property anytime in the future. But in reality, how likely is that to happen? How financially viable will it be for the owners to repair a decaying building? or tear it down and rebuild it? Will it be worth it? Even if all the owners have the financial clout and the willingness to fork out more money, how likely is it that everyone will agree on doing the same changes? So, while a freehold property 40 years after its TOP date MIGHT have more percevied market value than a leasehold property of the same age, if a new buyer has to spend a fortune just to make the building habitable again, wouldn't it be easier to buy a brand new leasehold property, or any new property? Some of my friends operate on the romantic notion that they can leave this piece of property to their children. Why do we assume that our children will want it? why do we assume that they will want to live in the same neighbourhood? So, an owner of a piece of freehold property CAN own a share of that land forever, but unless he and his future generations have the money and willingness to revitalize decaying buildings every 40 or 50 years, and get every other owner to act in unison (this might be the toughest challenge) it just sounds good in theory. This is why I think the perceived advantages of freehold properties over leasehold properties are vastly overstated and overrated.

  23. #23
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    You sounded like the Ang Mo who contributed an article to one of the newspapers ("Today" or "Straits Times:?) expressing the same opinion. There was another post whereby almost everyone replied that this is the most ridiculous property-related article to be ever published in the Singapore papers.

    Property is like stock market. When it is too bullish, all market participants are driven by greed and herd instinct, and usually, one will not be able to distinguish a good property from a junk. Vice versa when market is bearish.

    During the last one year, leasehold properties (whether new or enbloc) were sold at ridiculous prices because of the overly bullish market.

    The party is coming to an end and in such market, leasehold properties will be hit the hardest. Reason being that, leasehold properties are depreciating asset and developers will not want to hold it for too long especially during economic downturn. On the other hand, freehold land is as good as "gold" and developers with holding powers will be prepared to hang on to them.

    You just have to look at Kerrisdale (leasehold, sold cheaply by Wing Tai during the bad times of the property cycle) vs neighbouring City Square (freehold, held on by City Development for decades before being released recently during the upswing.)

    Singaporeans are pragmatic lot. Most do not buy properties with the intention of passing on to the next generation. It is about having a shelter and yet at the same time, preserving the value of the asset, which could be either for retirement planning or simply to pass the sales proceeds to our children after our death.

    And the qualms of en-bloc is that buildings are being torn down too early (<20 years). If a freehold property can last till 50 years, I am sure that by then, it will not be difficult to obtain 80% owner consensus fo en-bloc, and offload it during a rising property cycle.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    "Although buildings are designed to last about 50 years, good maintenance can prolong a building to easily 100 years and with conservation techniques, almost indefinitely."

    "But the leases are NOT for the buildings, per se, but for the LAND. In other words, if your condo is built on freehold land, then you can always tear down the buildings and rebuild it anytime you want, whether 50 years later, 30 years later or even 10 years later if you (and your neighbours) have the funds and want a change of style, e.g. from a Spanish Villa to a Hawaiian theme or a Cottage one."

    "Also, if your condo is leasehold and when you pass the half-way mark, the market value will start to decline while your neighbour, a freehold property, may be enjoying the boom. Also banks don't lend to condos with less than 50 years remaining lease."



    My view:
    While this may or may not be true (I'm not in the construction line so I don't know), unless a building is really aesthetically pleasing or has some obvious historical value, I don't think every building needs to be conserved beyond its period for safe occupation. I understand that freehold supposedly means you own a piece of that land forever, and yes, in theory, the owners can do anything, make any changes to their collective property anytime in the future. But in reality, how likely is that to happen? How financially viable will it be for the owners to repair a decaying building? or tear it down and rebuild it? Will it be worth it? Even if all the owners have the financial clout and the willingness to fork out more money, how likely is it that everyone will agree on doing the same changes? So, while a freehold property 40 years after its TOP date MIGHT have more percevied market value than a leasehold property of the same age, if a new buyer has to spend a fortune just to make the building habitable again, wouldn't it be easier to buy a brand new leasehold property, or any new property? Some of my friends operate on the romantic notion that they can leave this piece of property to their children. Why do we assume that our children will want it? why do we assume that they will want to live in the same neighbourhood? So, an owner of a piece of freehold property CAN own a share of that land forever, but unless he and his future generations have the money and willingness to revitalize decaying buildings every 40 or 50 years, and get every other owner to act in unison (this might be the toughest challenge) it just sounds good in theory. This is why I think the perceived advantages of freehold properties over leasehold properties are vastly overstated and overrated.

  24. #24
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Hi guys, I see that both sides are knowledgeable, equally eloquent and presents well argued positions on leasehold vs freehold properties. SLA website has some information regarding how leasehold land is valued with respect to freehold land, which showed a fractional relationship that exists:

    http://www.sla.gov.sg/htm/ser/ser0204.htm

    http://www.sla.gov.sg/doc/ser/THE_DI...Appendix_1.pdf

    I thought it interesting that leasehold land value is actually very well preserved even up to 40-50 years in the eyes of the government (valued at 70-75% of freehold equivalent land with remaining 50-60 years tenure). This leads me to believe that as long as a leasehold condo is not older than 40 years, there is really nothing much to worry about. What are your views?

    It seems to me also that the number of freehold condos being launch in recent years are on the rise. This makes me feel uneasy about the premium that's being charged versus a leasehold condo (in the range of 30%?). What do you think a fair premium should be (let's say in a hypothetical example where two new condos, one a leasehold and the other freehold, are standing side by side)?

    Hope to get some quality answers from both sides with good logic, not useless responses like "FH is forever, leasehold got time expiry". Thank you.

  25. #25
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    "I thought it interesting that leasehold land value is actually very well preserved even up to 40-50 years in the eyes of the government (valued at 70-75% of freehold equivalent land with remaining 50-60 years tenure). This leads me to believe that as long as a leasehold condo is not older than 40 years, there is really nothing much to worry about. What are your views?

    It seems to me also that the number of freehold condos being launch in recent years are on the rise. This makes me feel uneasy about the premium that's being charged versus a leasehold condo (in the range of 30%?). What do you think a fair premium should be (let's say in a hypothetical example where two new condos, one a leasehold and the other freehold, are standing side by side)?

    Hope to get some quality answers from both sides with good logic, not useless responses like "FH is forever, leasehold got time expiry". Thank you."[/QUOTE]




    Personally I think people get too hung up over the terms freehold and leasehold. Since freehold suggests forever and leasehold has a finite sound to it, I guess people automatically assume that there should be a premium for freehold properties. When I buy a piece of property, either I will live in it or I'll rent it out. Either way, PEOPLE will have to live in it. I think when PEOPLE judge a piece of property they will live in, they will look at criteria such as location, its physical appearance, quality of the finishing, maybe reputation of the builder, reputation of the developer, and so on. To me, all of these criteria contribute to the value of the property. Unless there is evidence showing that developers use better raw materials, hire better designers (and this is subjective), and generally build better products in freehold projects, why should I differentiate condos based on freehold and leasehold? On a side note, a real estate agent told me last year that she actually thought some developers would use inferior material for freehold projects because they felt freehold units would sell no matter what, and that buyers wold have to be enticed to buy leasehold properties so they use better material (freehold owners don't get mad, this is just an agent's point of view).

    Whether freehold or leasehold, a condo will eventually become old. I think this is the true cause of declining property value, not the lease terms. Even if a person intends to retain ownership of a freehold unit "forever," and intends to exercise control over his share of the land for as long as he can, I think there will be too many uncertainties and external factors down the road that will prevent him from doing so. Therefore I don't think I will pay a premium in exchange for a right that I probably will not put to good use.

  26. #26
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    ahahaha.. so naive u all.. i 13 yr old oso know better la..

    lease hold and free hold are just imaginary terms.. all in ur head.. 99 years? tell me which one govt has lasted 99 years?

  27. #27
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered
    ahahaha.. so naive u all.. i 13 yr old oso know better la..

    lease hold and free hold are just imaginary terms.. all in ur head.. 99 years? tell me which one govt has lasted 99 years?
    What imaginary terms for lease hold and free hold. If you are not 13, than put in complete views.

  28. #28
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Who is picking a fight here? Please reread my posting above. In no way a normal person will find it offensive. Not everyone believes that every old property can be enbloced forever. You may take a different view, fine. I would suggest if you cannot swallow alternative views, then don't read. And I believe my post was a lot more polite than yours.

    I despise people who call names and say things without basis. Why did you call me a sour grape that lost out on the enbloc frenzy? On what basis? This is totally uncalled for! Please take a step back and re-read your posts vs mine, for God's sake.


    Have the guts to admit what you said and stop twisting and turning around. You still want to divert attention to the en bloc issue when this thread is about the ageing of buildings. You were the first to accuse me and therefore deserve a reprisal.

    Ah, shut up, go to hell with you!

  29. #29
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]Thanks for the insightful post. Query, what are the charges for the lease topup? It appears SLA has the final say in the prices and whether the topup can be approved. What if the SLA (the landlord) levy market prices, which is probably the fairest basis? If a landlord were to renew a lease, he has every reason to ask for market prices. If that is the case, then one might be better off buying a brand new 99 year lease property. Contrary to popular beliefs, 99 years is not a very long time. A person who bought a property in his 20s will only be 70+ when the lease is up for renewel. So it is likely that either this person or his next generation will kena the lease topup/expiry for a 99 years property.


    You are correct, SLA calls the shot. The costs depends on THEIR market price (usually aribitrary) and the top up period.

    Lakeside Towers and Lakeside Apartments had a remaining lease of about 67 years when it was privatised a couple of years ago (both built by JTC), and the owners wanted a fresh 99 year lease, but the price quoted by SLA was certainly beyond their budget as many of the owners are retirees.

    That was the reason why the estate wanted to go the en bloc road because with the short lease, LT and LA were selling below those of nearby HDB!

    It is a pity actually because JTC put in about $20m. of upgrading replacing all the underground service pipes, changed all the lifts and water tanks, etc., without the owners paying a penny. It is the only privatisation that the owners paid nothing compared with the HUDC estates where the privatisation cost is between $14,000 and $20,000 per unit.

    The $20m. include legal fees, survey fees, construction of a management office, etc.

  30. #30
    Unregistered Guest

    Default Re: Some Condos Age Well, Most Don''t...

    [QUOTE=Unregistered]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered

    Will u be around in another 99 yrs times? So how u know? Can your experience foretell 99 yrs later?

    I am talking about the current policy of SLA, not 99 years later. Of course, you are free to express your views, if you do have any experience in this area.

    Nobody can foretell 99 yrs later, not even six months later otherwise there would not be so many conflicting views. But each view must be supported by empircal evidence, otherwise the writer is simply picking hair and not being constructive.

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