Why condo units are shrinking

[hopeful]

My parents retired. My auntie retired. They sell off their HDB and downgrade.

do you mind to let us know if they sell their flat in the 80's or in the later periods, like 00's or 10's

[minority]

Then how about the rents for hdb so affordable that made the hdb prices go up n shrunk the hdb units due to demand.

Then we force people who can afford a pc to buy or rent pc instead of resale?

Can also argue in the same vein.

I find the person who wrote the forum just want to buy a big PC cheap thats all. sound like MTB.

Actually how about the fact Singapore have developed from a swamp to a 1st world city thus the value of the things on this island will naturally increase with the countries worth and with that size changed which is regardless HDB, PC or landed?

Like that should we must well devalue singapore back to a swap or third world country so HDB, PC or landed can be big again ? but they want live in a swamp in third world conditions?

[minority]

The logic is if people have the incentive to sell their HDB flats, they would have bought a bigger private apartment as a form of upgrade or investment. Since rental yield for HDB flat is higher, there is no incentive to sell their HDB flats. By keeping their HDB flats, there is just so much money left that they could afford to buy private properties; hence small unit apartments is in demand, not by choice but by circumstances.

So let me put it the other way round. So if the singaporean mentality is must have a investment prop. so the person have HDB not cannot rent out. What will happen is the HDB person will not sell. since cannot rent out will go buy a smaller unit to rent out.

How will that logic of not allowing them to rent out HDB help with lesser demand for smaller units? coz there will still be demand.

[hopeful]

I find the person who wrote the forum just want to buy a big PC cheap thats all. sound like MTB.

Actually how about the fact Singapore have developed from a swamp to a 1st world city thus the value of the things on this island will naturally increase with the countries worth and with that size changed which is regardless HDB, PC or landed?

Like that should we must well devalue singapore back to a swap or third world country so HDB, PC or landed can be big again ? but they want live in a swamp in third world conditions?

i dont get the part about progress.
so when singapore, value increased, and size decreased?

eg. (figures just plucked)
like last time, people earn $3k can afford big HDB, can fully pay in 6 years.
now, singapore progressed, people earn $6k can afford only small HDB. fully pay in 15 years.

like that is still call progress?

[thomastansb]

The last few years

do you mind to let us know if they sell their flat in the 80's or in the later periods, like 00's or 10's

[walkthetiger]

The last few years

..u mentioned about ur parents hbd as example here.....but, even if ur parents can't sell so much to prepare their retirement... hope u did not forget ur responsibility to take full care of them after they retired.... they had invested in u...

[Amber Woods]

So let me put it the other way round. So if the singaporean mentality is must have a investment prop. so the person have HDB not cannot rent out. What will happen is the HDB person will not sell. since cannot rent out will go buy a smaller unit to rent out.

How will that logic of not allowing them to rent out HDB help with lesser demand for smaller units? coz there will still be demand.

If HDB flat owners cannot rent out their entire flat, there is more incentive for them to sell and buy a bigger unit to upgrade; hence demand for bigger units increases

By allowing them to rent out their HDB flats, they see more benefit to rent out rather than to sell;hence demand for smaller units increases.

The logic is there.

[minority]

If HDB flat owners cannot rent out their entire flat, there is more incentive for them to sell and buy a bigger unit to upgrade; hence demand for bigger units increases

By allowing them to rent out their HDB flats, they see more benefit to rent out rather than to sell;hence demand for smaller units increases.

The logic is there.

if I the HDB intention is invest. they will still go buy a MM.

[minority]

i dont get the part about progress.
so when singapore, value increased, and size decreased?

eg. (figures just plucked)
like last time, people earn $3k can afford big HDB, can fully pay in 6 years.
now, singapore progressed, people earn $6k can afford only small HDB. fully pay in 15 years.

like that is still call progress?

what is the quality of HDB then? Brick walls that are not plastered? what about the infra around the HDB then? what abt from village to HDB to now PC? what abt having safe and clean water? what about not neededing to squat by the street to eat to siting in aircon to have a meal? what bat jobs? a plentiful of job with low jobless rates? what about from a old rattling non aircon bus to aircon bus today? and the list goes on.

[hopeful]

what is the quality of HDB then? Brick walls that are not plastered? what about the infra around the HDB then? what abt from village to HDB to now PC? what abt having safe and clean water? what about not neededing to squat by the street to eat to siting in aircon to have a meal? what bat jobs? a plentiful of job with low jobless rates? what about from a old rattling non aircon bus to aircon bus today? and the list goes on.

the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.


we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.

any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).

i mean what is considered as progress?

[minority]

the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.


we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.

any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).

i mean what is considered as progress?

Singapore Progress u mean a HDB in a middle of no where compare to a HDB in singapore down town. values the same? even within singapore different location have different value. the progress of the country development raises the value of things in the country. Where more people desire to be here.

must then u must well say a hut in africa desert is cheaper than a hut in Singapore then. how can that be a hut is a hut!

[minority]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/....html?cid=FBSG

SINGAPORE: Senior citizens who sold off their old flats and moved to a studio apartment have made around S$200,000 each from the scheme.

This is the amount they gained after paying off outstanding loans for the old flat and fully paying for the new studio apartment.

National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan revealed this in his blog on Wednesday as he described the Studio Apartment scheme as one which has become "valuable in supporting seniors' retirement needs".

He said that between 2006 and 2013, 7,600 households have booked a studio apartment.

Of these, two-thirds were below 65.

Half were living alone, being divorced, single or widowed.

About 70 per cent were former owners of a 3- or 4-room flat.

Mr Khaw said: "We are taking studio apartments one step further by weaving them into integrated developments, like the Kampung Admiralty which we broke ground for recently.

"The two blocks of studio apartments will have easy access to a hawker centre, public plaza, healthcare, childcare and eldercare services, all under the same roof.

"The co-location is deliberate to promote inter-generational interaction and bonding with their children and grandkids.

"We will continue to experiment and try out new layouts to see what will work best for our seniors, and to enable them to age actively where they live, in their familiar HDB town."

[minority]

the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.


we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.

any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).

i mean what is considered as progress?

picture tells a thousand words. u mean u cannot spot the difference?

[hopeful]

from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.

from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?

what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.

in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.

is that progress?

[hopeful]

The last few years

thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?

i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.

from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.

[walkthetiger]

thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?

i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.

from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.

"孝" is lacking too... Many people seek help from gov and complain to gov their parents have no money to retire…and some may even say they can't support their retired parents...if so, then how can they be busying investing in PCsssss… I was recently told that these people can be top 5% earner in Singapore…. Haha…

[challenger]

simple minded and selfish.

what about those people i.e. retirees who depends on renting out their rooms for retirement income for daily usage.

simpleminded.

If am fine with folks who rent out rooms for additional income. Old folk do that to help in cost of living.

I am ok if old folks stay in PC and rent out their HDB for income, ... provided they only have 1 PC.

The question is, if the person is young, maybe 35 years old, with high income, with one or more PC and HDB for rental income. Things are a bit grey. The person is depriving others of staying in subsidised housing. Should we as a society let one person make more money through rent or give the opportunity to another young person to stay in good location HDB at a cheaper price?

Considering the stage we are at, any rule change on HDB rental is going to hit people very hard. Where are all the SP, WP, EP going to stay? Who is going to rent all those HDB? PC price is going to shoot up since only alternative is to go private.

Some people will suggest tax the young person holding on to both HDB and PC, or limit the number of years they can rent their HDB or put in condition that must have at least 2 kids. But hah, government may lose a lot of votes leh.

[thomastansb]

With that kind of profit, anyone can retire comfortably.

..u mentioned about ur parents hbd as example here.....but, even if ur parents can't sell so much to prepare their retirement... hope u did not forget ur responsibility to take full care of them after they retired.... they had invested in u...

[minority]

If am fine with folks who rent out rooms for additional income. Old folk do that to help in cost of living.

I am ok if old folks stay in PC and rent out their HDB for income, ... provided they only have 1 PC.

The question is, if the person is young, maybe 35 years old, with high income, with one or more PC and HDB for rental income. Things are a bit grey. The person is depriving others of staying in subsidised housing. Should we as a society let one person make more money through rent or give the opportunity to another young person to stay in good location HDB at a cheaper price?

Considering the stage we are at, any rule change on HDB rental is going to hit people very hard. Where are all the SP, WP, EP going to stay? Who is going to rent all those HDB? PC price is going to shoot up since only alternative is to go private.

Some people will suggest tax the young person holding on to both HDB and PC, or limit the number of years they can rent their HDB or put in condition that must have at least 2 kids. But hah, government may lose a lot of votes leh.

WEll the other question the young singaporean here u mention will raise is hdb was his 1st home. he paid tax. and he is signaporean too he deserve this piece of wealfare every singaporean shoudl have. and subsequently he made it in life did well own more props are his hard work. he/she should not be punished for it becoz other feel jealous.

Also how would it deprive other singaporean form subsidized home? coz the 1st buy is subsidised. 2nd buy in resale do not get subsidy. so I wont say deprive anyone of subsidy.

[thomastansb]

Depends isn't it?

Some say more shopping center = progress
Some say more shopping center = lesser trees = backwards

Some say 14" TV $1000 last time better
Some say 4kTV $5000 now better. Progress or backwards?

from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.

from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?

what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.

in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.

is that progress?

[thomastansb]

From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.

thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?

i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.

from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.

[walkthetiger]

From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.

...haha...一身铜臭味，你就进步了... take care..

[hopeful]

From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.

wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?

does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?

and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?

and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?

singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.

only time will tell.

as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.

[CondoInterested]

Where can find this article? URL?

If she graduated from NBS NTU in 2008, she should be 27 years old by this year's birthday.

Wonder what's her motivation?

She doesn't own HDB?

She doesn't have parents staying in HDB and stay in private housing?

Want to buy resale HDB under parents name but cannot buy because they have private house?

Well, just speculations, any other theories?

Strange, why am I reading this in the first place?

[minority]

from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.

from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?

what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.

in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.

is that progress?

the surrounding from bare grass with pot holes to parks and roads and shops and amenities and schools. that is progress

if u don't consider replacing a brick with glass as progress then ur argument of electronics don't hold water. basically in the 80s I have a phone that weights like a brick feel like a brick today its replace with a thin phone with glass in front and back . thats to me is progress brick to glass.

well in HDB over the years if u look at avg size they didn't change that much. infact in the 70s. HDB was even smaller. and its worst you have a family of 6-8 living in a unit which today a family of 4 lives in. to me that is progress

As for mother work stay home or not? thats up to the family. there are woman who stay in hdb who choose not to work. today most woman work because they are educated and woman equality have improved that to me is progress. they can choose to work or not to. many choose to coz its their choice. in the past most woman are not educated and being a housewife is their default job. with so with progress they have a choice. work or stay home. so to me thats progress.

[espeyap]

wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?

does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?

and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?

and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?

singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.

only time will tell.

as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.

wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?

I think yes, at least those who bought it cheap can sell it now, then stay in Malaysia and become millionaire

HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
Value Appreciated Asset of more than 2.5% a year is definitely better than Money in CPF. All are consider as asset but asset will higher return rate is definitely better.

lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
When you say lower HDB price, I believe you do not mean the HDB have no appreciate in value over time. If HDB Value increase over time, then I would say, higher HDB price will equate to more CPF after you sell your HDB.

Or, best way is don't buy HDB but rent from Govn, then your CPF is all there earning 2.5% a year from Govn. So you could retired earlier using your CPF money only.


why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?

If retirees own a HDB, say 4 rooms, at the current market, he can rent out 2 rooms and have income of say 1,400 per month. I believe with rental money and CPF money and money from children (if lucky). He do not need to downgrade at all. Unless he want to cash out lump sum profit he made from HDB.




does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?
In 80s, flat is mostly 3 rooms or 4 rooms, how to downgrade, with the price is so low? The retirees can downgrade now, because of price of the HDB.


and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?

Market will balance by itself. If not, govn will balance it every 4 years so that govn will still be in power.

[triple70]

The vast majority of citizens are flat owners, and it's only logical that everyone desires the value of the asset appreciating. Talking down property prices is simply value destruction.

Everyone needs to account for inflation when comparing past property prices. We all pay interest, time is indeed money.

For those who have yet to own their property, the govt has subsidy schemes to help them achieve their dream. Such schemes like 90% concessionary loans, first timer grants, are specifically targeted at non home owners.

We should make a clear distinction between someone wishing for a chance to own a home, vs someone wishing for prices to drop.

The main gripe is really about standard of living, not property prices per se.
The govt should focus on lowering the overall cost of living, resulting in improved standard of living. Govt grants for first timers should be substantially raised. If ppl chose to cash out after MOP, that is their free market decision.

For the past 30 years, demand has far exceeded demand. Over the next 2 years, project completions are expected to peak and there should be sufficient supply. The question is whether the supply and demand curve will actually meet!

[hopeful]

Sigh....govt is playing with fire. Giving unrealistic expectations to the people.
"dont sell ur hdb flat".
People expect all hdb flats to be SERs, never noticing the S part of sers.

Again,off my head, now new hdb is like 5-6x of median annual income.
when talking abt increasing value of hdb, to what value will the multiplier be? 7-8x ?

Looks like everybody want hdb to increase in price.
anybody wang to give indicative figures in 2030, what multiplier of median income will hdb be? Still 5-6x or 7-8x?

[thomastansb]

wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?

No stats. Just simple logic. Buy 50k, sell 600k.

HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?

I can stay in HDB and the price appreciate. I don't know if you can do the same with CPF.

lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?

Yes. If you buy low, you have more money left. If you sell high, you have even more money.

why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?

It is an option not a need. Why do you see it as a need? If I am not rich, at least I have an appreciating asset.

does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?

I don't know. I was born in early 80s. Anyway, they don't need to downgrade. They have an option to downgrade if needed. Many retirees are staying in landed so depends on how much money you made/saved up.

and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?

I don't know. I guess as long as the market can accept it. The resale prices is difficult to control.

and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?

Too bad then.

singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.

I won't speculate too much. What if there is a third world war? So many what if. Never ending.

only time will tell.

as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.

wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?

[thomastansb]

I haven't seen a single case of a HDB being taken back. So I don't know what you are talking about here. Unless it has happened, then I think we shouldn't talk too much cock here and speculate the unknowns.

Actually I want HDB to drop so those who ask for prices to drop will repent and I can get one cheaply without MOP (hopefully) and rent out for life. In fact, it has already happened. Some areas dropping 100k in 1 year. 4 bedrooms units. Too bad. You get what you ask for isn't it? So suck it up.

Sigh....govt is playing with fire. Giving unrealistic expectations to the people.
"dont sell ur hdb flat".
People expect all hdb flats to be SERs, never noticing the S part of sers.

Again,off my head, now new hdb is like 5-6x of median annual income.
when talking abt increasing value of hdb, to what value will the multiplier be? 7-8x ?

Looks like everybody want hdb to increase in price.
anybody wang to give indicative figures in 2030, what multiplier of median income will hdb be? Still 5-6x or 7-8x?