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Thread: Land Storm is Coming!!!

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwantland
    Not Talking to you dude. It's proper-T I am addressing.
    ok, now i remember. This was the last discussion we had.



    before you get all excited and bubbly, I just wish to let you know that there has been a trend of people in this forum who like to quote a discussion out of context, twist the fact and then use it as an argument. Which IMO is a sign of desperation.

    In your case, perhaps you should look back and ask yourself if ringo33 has actually say that the this particular transaction, (which ringo33 has posted himself) the seller is making a loss? Or was it something that was fabricated by yourself just to make yourself look smart.

    Do mean that Ringo33 could calculate the SSD, stamp duty and agent commission but he cannot tell the different between 120K profit or loss?

    Again, sorry to bust your smoke screen again.

    Wilkinson Road Semi-Detached 3,455sqft 839

    Bought 2010-11-29 $2.65m
    Sold 2013-05-03 $2.90m

    SSD $27.2K + stamp duty $74,100 + 1% agent commission $29K
    total $130.3K

    Profit $120k. Return 2% per year?

    This is provided seller didnt spend money on intensive renovation.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  2. #302
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    Broken record syndrome.

    Keep posting same chart

    Argument lost but jumps back to the start again and again hoping he can make it past the groove but to no avail. Read #246 to #270 for details

  3. #303
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    Default Robust weekend sales of mass-market condominiums


  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon
    So cash storm has arrived?

  5. #305
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    Huat Ah.....

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    ok, now i remember. This was the last discussion we had.
    R33. You are seriously disillusioned. Why are u responding for comments made for proper-t?
    If you want a conversation with me, start a new one.

    You bore me with your repetitive cut and paste.

    Next pls.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwantland
    R33. You are seriously disillusioned. Why are u responding for comments made for proper-t?
    If you want a conversation with me, start a new one.

    You bore me with your repetitive cut and paste.

    Next pls.

    to be honest, I cant remember when have I ever started any discussion with you in this forum, as you have never come across as someone who is credible or capable enough in engaging any property discussion.

    If you are not aware, all your 23 post in this forum since Jan 2013, are focus on only talking about nonsense in this thread. I repeat, ONLY IN THIS THREAD, hence isnt it obvious that you are just someone in this forum using a fake account just to make up the numbers. Perhaps even to the extend of giving yourself some false sense of encouragement or supports.

    And the only reason why we even having this discussion is because you have interjected; on many occasions, into my discussion with someone else in this forum.

    So i guess disillusion doesnt apply to illusionist like you.


    So please grow up, stop using fake account and stop posting nonsensical comments.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcachon
    Huat Ah.....
    Yep. Looks like the party people have woken up....

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    to be honest, I cant remember when have I ever started any discussion with you in this forum, as you have never come across as someone who is credible or capable enough in engaging any property discussion.

    If you are not aware, all your 23 post in this forum since Jan 2013, are focus on only talking about nonsense in this thread. I repeat, ONLY IN THIS THREAD, hence isnt it obvious that you are just someone in this forum using a fake account just to make up the numbers. Perhaps even to the extend of giving yourself some false sense of encouragement or supports.

    And the only reason why we even having this discussion is because you have interjected; on many occasions, into my discussion with someone else in this forum.

    So i guess disillusion doesnt apply to illusionist like you.


    So please grow up, stop using fake account and stop posting nonsensical comments.
    Now you are accusing me of being fake??? Pls. Grow a spine.
    Prove that I am a fake... Or better bugger off.
    This forum does not belong to u alone. Grow up kiddo.

  10. #310
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    Another lousy deal.

    Ford Avenue Terrace 3,294sqft

    Bought 2006-12-29 $1,139psf $3.75m
    Sold 2013-04-30 $1,214psf $4.0m

    Stamp duty : $107,100 + 1% agent commission $40,000
    Total $147,100

    Gain : $102,900 (0.5% per year)

    -----------------------------------------

    So much for all that no new supply, rich new citizens and capital gain..
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  11. #311
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    So nice of you to keep posting landed transactions with GAINS.

    Must be quite depressing to continually see CCR transactions at a LOSS especially when you happen to own one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    Really depends, 2 of my tenant renting my OCR property are actually working in CBD, while my other tenant for my CCR property is actually working in OCR.

    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    Sui Generis 1572 sq ft

    Bought 2007-12-26 2201psf
    Sold 2013-04-29 1922psf

    lost > 500k for a 3.5m investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    The Azure

    #06-01 2508 sq ft
    Bought 2010-09-08 1875psf
    Sold 2013-02-08 1695psf

    lost almost 600k before agent fees.
    Quote Originally Posted by bargain hunter
    One Tree Hill Residence

    BOUGHT 2007-05-05 2400PSF 1130 SQ FT
    SOLD 2013-04-01 2106PSF

    NET LOSS > 400K FOR 2.7M INVESTMENT

  12. #312
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    proper-t, this thread is about landed property and it is within the landed property section of the forum so please stop re-posting condo discussion here, no one is interested in recycled information.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  13. #313
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    But you readily post about landed in D.5 condo thread, so why the double standards? Do you own the condosingapore forum?


    New Condo Launch at Jln Lempeng: 390m to Clementi MRT Station
    District 5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    personally I will not touch any LH landed property for investment because during crisis LH landed will usually suffer the biggest correction, due to its lease and also poor rental demand.

    Those landed property in Jurong area were sold at around 1.5M during launch (IIRC), post dot com bubble, they was transacted at around 800K.

    However if you are buying for own stay, then dont need to talk about gain or appreciation.

  14. #314
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    Oh btw, can you elaborate further on your last statement in quote above and how it pertains to our discussion in this thread especially since you have established that 86% of landed owners buy for own stay? :

    "However if you are buying for own stay, then dont need to talk about gain or appreciation."

  15. #315
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    recycled information like your silly famous chart??

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    proper-t, this thread is about landed property and it is within the landed property section of the forum so please stop re-posting condo discussion here, no one is interested in recycled information.

  16. #316
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    CCR storm is already building up....

    Quote Originally Posted by proper-t
    So nice of you to keep posting landed transactions with GAINS.

    Must be quite depressing to continually see CCR transactions at a LOSS especially when you happen to own one.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by lajia
    CCR storm is already building up....
    Yes I am waiting patiently. Someone at Orchards Scotts is already willing to sell at 1M loss but no takers.

  18. #318
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    I am glad that the landed fans in this forums have finally awoken after so many months of living in their little fantasy. It is not surprising that after being confronted with FACTS, they are now starting to compare landed property to CCR condo price, which we all know has been in the correction path since 1 year ago.

    Prior to this week, all the landed bulls and bullshits were all orchestrating , singing and chanting in perfect harmony,

    1 for No new supply,
    2 for Rich new citizen,
    3 for Buying for capital gain.
    4 for Landed owner got good holding power.

    This is yet another clear sign that psychological even the landed dwellers in this forum are starting to accept its ok for landed property price to come down because CCR property also coming down.

    Perhaps this chart is starting to make more sense to them, and I bet they will now be trying to think how far can this go before we hit bottom.

    You can continue to sing about cash storm or whatever, but as long as you are living on land, you will not be able to escape the land storm.

    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    I am glad that the landed fans in this forums have finally awoken after so many months of living in their little fantasy. It is not surprising that after being confronted with FACTS, they are now starting to compare landed property to CCR condo price, which we all know has been in the correction path since 1 year ago.

    Prior to this week, all the landed bulls and bullshits were all orchestrating , singing and chanting in perfect harmony,

    1 for No new supply,
    2 for Rich new citizen,
    3 for Buying for capital gain.
    4 for Landed owner got good holding power.

    This is yet another clear sign that psychological even the landed dwellers in this forum are starting to accept its ok for landed property price to come down because CCR property also coming down.

    Perhaps this chart is starting to make more sense to them, and I bet they will now be trying to think how far can this go before we hit bottom.

    You can continue to sing about cash storm or whatever, but as long as you are living on land, you will not be able to escape the land storm.

    This is what Ringo33 was singing about 1 year ago in May/June 2012 :

    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    CCR property prices expect to rise soon?

    btw is stproperty.com.sg related to SPH? Is this some kind of subtle advertising from SPH?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    I like you interpretation. For conservative investors, just pay a little bit more to get a CCR MM or 1 bedder. One of my favorite are those around little india mrt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    I think the idea of investing in CCR is very tempting, however with a $1m budget, what you can get in CCR will be all the left over crumbs, so when there is a over supply in the market, it might be very challenging for you to find tenants.

    If you want to play safe, try to get something that is at least 2 bedders instead of a studio or 1 bedder. with 2 bedders you could possible rent to single or someone with a small family.
    Now look at his current statement quoted above 1 year hence which has been highlighted below:

    CCR condo price, which we all know has been in the correction path since 1 year ago.


    Imagine if you had acted on his advice 1 yr ago.

    When a person tries so hard to sell you something (look at the number of times he has posted the same chart in this thread alone), you know you had better run far far away or better still take a contrarian view.
    Last edited by proper-t; 22-05-13 at 14:57.

  20. #320
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    The next peak is coming......

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/bernan...140054253.html

    QE3 unlimited, 85 Billion a month.

    I don't understand what LKY mean in 2010 and why the rich is getting richer until I get a email from the bank.

    I try to explain to my friend and they say I am crazy to think the Bank is giving away money. At that time only US is printing, now Japan also join in the fun.
    Last edited by Arcachon; 23-05-13 at 02:01.

  21. #321
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    Latest GCB Transaction:

    2013-05-16 Cornwall Gardens 20,721 sq.ft. $42,500,000 $2,051 psf

    This is the highest absolute deal value in the last 2 years, according to the URA website.

    This is also the highest psf price ever on Cornwall Gardens. The next highest was $1,496 psf in March, 2011.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynchmail
    Latest GCB Transaction:

    2013-05-16 Cornwall Gardens 20,721 sq.ft. $42,500,000 $2,051 psf

    This is the highest absolute deal value in the last 2 years, according to the URA website.

    This is also the highest psf price ever on Cornwall Gardens. The next highest was $1,496 psf in March, 2011.

    This is likely a new house.

    Hence , if you factor in the cost of building (500psf for GCB class) , the land cost is pretty much the same.

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pynchmail
    Latest GCB Transaction:

    2013-05-16 Cornwall Gardens 20,721 sq.ft. $42,500,000 $2,051 psf

    This is the highest absolute deal value in the last 2 years, according to the URA website.

    This is also the highest psf price ever on Cornwall Gardens. The next highest was $1,496 psf in March, 2011.
    Ever ask why is Simon Cheong of SC Global selling this property and not keeping them? Does he know something that most Singaporeans dont?
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    Ever ask why is Simon Cheong of SC Global selling this property and not keeping them? Does he know something that most Singaporeans dont?
    Nope, have not asked, hence don't know if he knew something that most Singaporeans don't.

  25. #325
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    As usual, someone likes to insinuate but leaves out the full details.

    Published June 04, 2013

    GCB transactions making a comeback
    Recent deals include Simon Cheong's home which he is selling for $42.5m
    By Kalpana Rashiwala

    Big deals: Knight Frank has put on the market a freehold bungalow in Peel Road in the Ridout Park GCB Area (above). It has also sold a bungalow at 82 Meyer Road (right) for $30.7 million via public tender.

    THE freeze in the Good Class Bungalow (GCB) market appears to be thawing, with a few sizeable transactions done lately.

    Simon Cheong, the boss of high-end developer SC Global, is selling his home in Cornwall Gardens for $42.5 million. This works out to $2,051 per square foot (psf) based on the land area of 20,719 square feet. On the elevated site is the luxurious bungalow that Mr Cheong developed and which is understood to have five bedrooms (including a sprawling master bedroom) and a guest room - all ensuite. The two-storey house - which also has a grand staircase and a pool - is said to have a built-up area of about 9,000 sq ft.

    Mr Cheong is expected to move into a brand new house on Swettenham Road, which he has built on a site of about 33,300 sq ft that he bought for $29.2 million in 2009 from BreadTalk founder and chairman George Quek.

    Market watchers note that the $2,051 psf on land area fetched for Mr Cheong's Cornwall Gardens property is not far off the record $2,110 psf set last October for a transaction in a GCB Area. That was set when bungalow investor George Lim sold a Leedon Park property that he completed in 2011 for $33 million. Standing on 15,640 sq ft of land, the bungalow has six bedrooms and a pool. The two properties are a short distance from each other.
    Last edited by proper-t; 05-06-13 at 01:29.

  26. #326
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    depends how you choose to read this article. For me, I dont see why SC need to sell his Cornwall property if he already own both site since 2009. It is not that he need to sell one to escape ABSD or something.

    I am guessing he is no longer bullish about landed property anymore, or else he would have done want many are saying; hold and keep for the next generation.

    Many landed property guru here has got more insight than SC Global.
    Last edited by Ringo33; 05-06-13 at 08:03.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

  27. #327
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    Why does anyone sell properties? Upgrade to a larger property? Reduce borrowings? Raise cash? Outlook on market is just one of a multitude of reasons.


    Simon Cheong's buyout offer for SC Global lifts shares depressed by his own strategy

    By Leu Siew Ying of The Edge Singapore | The Edge Malaysia – Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:15 AM SGT


    SIMON CHEONG, CEO and chairman of SC Global Developments, is facing resistance to his offer to take his company private at S$1.80 a share. That could soon turn into criticism about how he has been running the company.
    SC Global has developed some of the most luxurious residential property in Singapore, including The Marq on Paterson Hill, Hilltops located on Cairnhill Circle and Martin No 38 on Martin Road. The company's strategy has been to price its developments at sky-high levels and take its time unloading them. When demand is weak, it simply holds back the units until buyers are once more willing to pay up. For instance, The Marq on Paterson Hill, where a unit was sold in September at S$4,920 psf, is only 50% sold at the moment, according to analysts. The first unit was sold in 2007.
    The downside of this strategy is that SC Global's earnings have been volatile, which has done its share price no good. In the past year, shares in SC Global have traded as low as 94.5 cents. Just before Cheong made his offer, they were trading at S$1.205 each. SC Global reported a book valueof S$1.55 a share as at Sept 30. Analystshave also put its RNAV at between S$1.98 and S$4 a share.
    Now, another problem is looming for the company. Under government rules designed to prevent hoarding of property, SC Global might soon have to pay penalties on its unsold units. Some of its projects were built on land acquired with a Qualifying Certificate (QC), which used to be a requirement for foreign-owned developers. Projects under these QCs are required to be completed within five years and fully sold within two years of obtaining their Temporary Occupation Permit. According to Lee Liat Yeang, a senior partner at Rodyk & Davidson, the Residential Property Act considers public-listed property developers such as SC Globalforeign-owned because foreigners can buy their shares and sit on their boards.
    What happens if SC Global's development projects fail to meet their QC requirements? The company would forfeit the deposit paid to obtain the QC, which amounts to 10% of the land cost. However, under amendments to the law, which came into force in 2011, they are allowed to apply for an extension, for which they have to pay an extension premium based on a percentage of the land cost pro-rated for the proportion of units still unsold. The premium is 8% in the first year; 16% in the second; and 24% in the third. Lee says no developer has yet forfeited its deposit, and a few have successfully obtained extensions.
    Alison Fok, an analyst at Maybank Kim Eng Research, says in a report that SC Global's The Marq will run into its QC deadline on Jan 13, while Hilltops and Martin No 38 will hit their deadlines on April 13 and Nov 13 respectively. If the company does not receive a waiver or extension from the government, it could forfeit as much as S$71.7 million in 2013, according to Maybank Kim Eng.
    This looming penalty gives Cheong a strong incentive to take SC Global private, say some analysts. It also gives minority investors a reason to accept the offer. After all, if SC Global were made to pay the penalties for the unsold units, the value of the company would be eroded.
    According to filings related to the offer, the offer price of S$1.80 a share is a significant premium of 49.4% to SC Global's last traded price prior to the offer, and a premium of 39.5% to the highest closing price in the last 12 months.

    Minority resistance
    Yet, it has not impressed SC Global's second-largest shareholder, Wheelock Properties. On Dec 13, Wheelock said it had bought 1.066 million shares in SC Global in the market at just under S$1.81 a share. With the purchase, Wheelock's interest in SC Global edged up to 16.09% from 15.9%. "In our assessment, the current share price represents a discount of some 40% to 50% of RNAV [revised net asset value], and we would be unable to buy property assets directly at anything like these prices," Tan Bee Kim, senior executive director at Wheelock, says in a statement.
    Is Wheelock preparing to make a counter offer for SC Global? Analysts say it is unlikely. For one thing, Cheong holds a commanding majority stake of 60.74%. "It is quite likely that Wheelock just wants to elicit a higher price from Simon Cheong," Gregory Yap, an analyst at Maybank Kim Eng, tells The Edge Singapore.
    Indeed, Wheelock has been a victim of SC Global's poor share price performance in recent years. It purchased a block of 51 million SC Globalshares in 2007 at an estimated S$2.269 a share, according to Maybank Kim Eng. In 2011, it wrote down the value of this holding to S$1 a share. Wheelock now holds a total of 66.5 million shares in SC Global.
    Shares in SC Global are now trading at S$1.915, preventing Cheong from raising his stake in the company at his offer price of S$1.80. But the standoff has also left minority investors in something of a bind. Should they hold out for a better offer from Cheong? Or, should they sell in the market now? More generally, are minority investors such as Wheelock being squeezed out of a company that could be worth much more if it were run differently?

    Sitting on its assets
    SC Global is not the only company that has to comply with the QC rules. Wheelock, for instance, faced the same situation with its Orchard View development. Yet, it avoided having to pay any penalties because it did not insist on sitting on unsold units. To deliver earnings to its shareholders, the company progressively lowered its selling prices and eventually sold all 30 units at the development. The selling price averaged S$2,845 psf when the entire stock was sold at end-3Q2012, according to its filings.
    Recently, other public-listed developers have been cutting prices to move their unsold properties too. According to URA statistics, CapitaLand sold 133 units at its D'Leedon development at a median price of S$1,431 psf in November, somewhat lower than the median transacted price of S$1,519 psf for the year.
    SC Global could still realise huge margins on its unsold units even if it chose to cut its prices. The company paid only S$382 million for the land for its Hilltops project, S$266 million for The Marq and S$68.7 million for Martin No 38. Maybank Kim Eng's Fok says SC Global's pre-tax margins are 62.1% for The Marq, 52.1% for Hilltops and 36.1% for Martin No 38. As at Nov 30, it had 195 unsold units at Hilltops, 33 at The Marq and 21 at Martin No 38.
    Wouldn't shareholders of SC Global be better off if it quickly converted these unsold units into cash to avoid being hit with QC penalties? Wouldn't a steady stream of earnings and cash flow provide more support to its shares than an unrealised RNAV?

    Fok says SC Global is simply not prepared to cut the lofty prices it has set at its developments. Nor will it consider generating temporary cash flow from them by putting them up for lease. "We've asked SC Global in July whether they've considered renting out, but they are not [keen] to rent out units, as renters normally leave the units in pretty bad shape, thus making it difficult to sell afterwards," says Fok.

    Instead, SC Global is adamant about holding on to its unsold units. "They believe property development is a long-term business," Fok adds. "They are not concerned about the short-term volatility they may be facing."
    Donald Han, a consultant at HSR, says it would indeed be a problem for SC Global to mark down its unsold units because of its positioning at the very top end of the residential property market. The Marq, for instance, differentiates itself by offering buyers a rarefied lifestyle. "You want to make sure that your project has the ability to hold values over time. If you cut prices, it sends the wrong signal, especially to the people who bought earlier," says Han.
    However, if developers of high-end properties really want to move their unsold inventory, they would be able to easily find bulk buyers by offering discounts of 10% to 15%, according to Han. "The real estate investment trusts [REITS] are not buying residential properties because the rental income is a paltry 2%, but private funds are interested. There are Malaysian investors in the market and they would buy at a 10% to 15% discount," Han says. "But developers are not willing to give even 5%."
    Han adds that the rental market for luxury residences is still very strong. "There is only a small number of such properties on the market. If they released in batches, it is not a problem to rent them out," he says.


    What should investors do?
    Even if Cheong succeeds in avoiding the QC penalties by taking SC Global private, his future developments will be affected by a new set of rules that require all developers to complete and sell their properties within five years. These rules supersede the QC requirements. So, it seems unclear how he is going to avoid selling his properties at a much faster pace in future.
    For now, Cheong's offer might be the best chance minority investors have of realising the value of their shares for some time. Maybank Kim Eng's Yap does not expect any other bidders to emerge for SC Global because of the huge stake that Cheong already owns. But he is betting that Cheong will eventually sweeten his offer to satisfy Wheelock.
    How much will Wheelock manage to squeeze out of Cheong? "My estimate is between S$2.10 and S$2.50," Yap says. "It is a conservative number based on a 30% to 40% [discount to] the street's RNAV." Maybank Kim Eng's own RNAV estimate is S$4 a share.
    Last edited by proper-t; 05-06-13 at 08:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    depends how you choose to read this article. For me, I dont see why SC need to sell his Cornwall property if he already own both site since 2009. It is not that he need to sell one to escape ABSD or something.

    I am guessing he is no longer bullish about landed property anymore, or else he would have done want many are saying; hold and keep for the next generation.

    Many landed property guru here has got more insight than SC Global.
    i dont know man, it seems that the rich buy and sell among themselves only. so as a whole, the rich money is still on the table.

    it is only when they do REITs, or sell shares in a development to bit-players like you and me, then it means the rich are taking money off the table.

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    Yes, SC is selling his landed property to finance other investment. Which also mean that landed property at current price is no longer an attractive investment proposition. Perhaps thats the reason why Wingtai chairman is also putting his GCB on the market.
    "Never argue with an idiot, or he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo33
    Yes, SC is selling his landed property to finance other investment. Which also mean that landed property at current price is no longer an attractive investment proposition. Perhaps thats the reason why Wingtai chairman is also putting his GCB on the market.

    Did SC tell you personally that he sold his GCB to finance other investment and that landed property at current price is no longer an attractive investment proposition?

    In that case why doesn't he sell off his Swettenham GCB as well and buy/stay in one of his own luxury condo instead?
    Last edited by proper-t; 05-06-13 at 16:46.

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