Significant Property News & Discussions

[teddybear]

OCR more resilient than CCR is a fallacy, and OCR rental occupancy currently is because of lower rental. When shit hits the fence, and CCR rental drop to match OCR, OCR will be full of VACANT investment properties!

OCR is more resilient than CCR. With AEC coming next year, OCR rental occupancy will be stronger. Virtually there is no speculator in the market anymore. That's why CCR get wiped out. Now mainly housing is based on needs. So watch out for needs trend.

From a short term speculator point of view, the prognosis of property market is bad. However, from a long term investor, property is still a superior investment class.

[indomie]

OCR more resilient than CCR is a fallacy, and OCR rental occupancy currently is because of lower rental. When shit hits the fence, and CCR rental drop to match OCR, OCR will be full of VACANT investment properties!

Its true that OCR rental occupancy is achieved through a drop in rent. However by large the market is still healthy, holding power is still strong. When CCR rental drop to match OCR, Singapore will be a cheap place to live. Possibly cheaper than KL or Jakarta.

[Kelonguni]

OCR is more resilient than CCR. With AEC coming next year, OCR rental occupancy will be stronger. Virtually there is no speculator in the market anymore. That's why CCR get wiped out. Now mainly housing is based on needs. So watch out for needs trend.

From a short term speculator point of view, the prognosis of property market is bad. However, from a long term investor, property is still a superior investment class.

Clap clap. Well said. Slow but steady lift of boats in the long run. As long as don't charge will be fine. But it's shuddering that so called OCR in Yishun is averaging 1300psf. That is spectacular in the current market.

[thomastansb]

Rental is not as easy as CCR drop rent, OCR is empty. No such thing. Rental is the same across Singapore. If CCR rental drop, OCR will likely drop as well. Same goes for RCR. All move together. That is it. There will be some areas where it will underperformed due to an excess supply in one area. Eg: 5 new condos in the same area. Or some areas where rental hold better. But it won't be empty. There are still demands for OCR and RCR. Not everyone is working in CBD. Why would anyone want to stay in CBD when he/she is working at CBP or Jurong?

[teddybear]

rental property won't be empty? Young man, you are too young to experience it!
I let you know, in 1998, many private condos in OCR were left empty, no tenants, even at $1200 pm for a 3bedroom condo units also no taker! That is just how bad it can be!!!!!! Don't say I never remind you that!

Oh forget to tell you that at that time, many CCR condo units had to accept rent at half price of what they used to command.............

So, real life situation of what had happened previously - When shit hit the fence:
1) CCR condo can only rent out at half price of what they used to command.......
2) OCR condo can't find tenant even at $1200 pm for a 3 bedroom unit!

Rental is not as easy as CCR drop rent, OCR is empty. No such thing. Rental is the same across Singapore. If CCR rental drop, OCR will likely drop as well. Same goes for RCR. All move together. That is it. There will be some areas where it will underperformed due to an excess supply in one area. Eg: 5 new condos in the same area. Or some areas where rental hold better. But it won't be empty. There are still demands for OCR and RCR. Not everyone is working in CBD. Why would anyone want to stay in CBD when he/she is working at CBP or Jurong?

[Kelonguni]

What was the population size then? How much psf for private property and HDB?

In the 1980s, there was almost no such thing as rental.

rental property won't be empty? Young man, you are too young to experience it!
I let you know, in 1998, many private condos in OCR were left empty, no tenants, even at $1200 pm for a 3bedroom condo units also no taker! That is just how bad it can be!!!!!! Don't say I never remind you that!

Oh forget to tell you that at that time, many CCR condo units had to accept rent at half price of what they used to command.............

So, real life situation of what had happened previously - When shit hit the fence:
1) CCR condo can only rent out at half price of what they used to command.......
2) OCR condo can't find tenant even at $1200 pm for a 3 bedroom unit!

[hopeful]

CCR property prices already crashed 20-35% already wah, drop some more and CCR will be CHEAPER than OCR!
For CCR to drop more, we need to see OCR drop first............

so as OCR drop, CCR may also drop and this is not the end of the drop for CCR ? right?

[teddybear]

Let's see whether OCR will CRASH or not first.
If OCR will not CRASH, then CCR would have stabilized, since too CHEAP already compared to OCR!

so as OCR drop, CCR may also drop and this is not the end of the drop for CCR ? right?

[teddybear]

Come on, I am talking about 1998, not 1980s.

In early 1980s, government forced bought my land under "Compulsory land acquisition" for National development for about S$0.60 psf.

At that time, a double-storey terrace house with about $1600 sqft land and built-up area of about 1900 sqft in OCR cost about $350,000.
Also, construction costs was about $50 psf for private property. That is to say, the market price of the private landed property's land is about $159 psf.

A new 5-room HDB flat in OCR of about 1300 sqft (with no renovation) only cost $40,000, or $30.77 psf of built-up area.

Above are just startling facts for those who do not know...............

What was the population size then? How much psf for private property and HDB?

In the 1980s, there was almost no such thing as rental.

[Kelonguni]

Come on, I am talking about 1998, not 1980s.

In early 1980s, government forced bought my land under "Compulsory land acquisition" for National development for about S$0.60 psf.

At that time, a double-storey terrace house with about $1600 sqft land and built-up area of about 1900 sqft in OCR cost about $350,000.
Also, construction costs was about $50 psf for private property. That is to say, the market price of the private landed property's land is about $159 psf.

A new 5-room HDB flat in OCR of about 1300 sqft (with no renovation) only cost $40,000, or $30.77 psf of built-up area.

Above are just startling facts for those who do not know...............

Exactly, my friend. Exactly.

Why the obsession to compare with 98 (about 20 years ago) when the 80s was also about 20 years from 98? Do you think we will go back to 159psf in the future?

[teddybear]

If the government is not going to relax foreign expats' work permit, work passes etc, we are already see rising vacany rates.

When recession comes, even if govt relax foreign expats' work permit also useless!

So conclusion:
With the massive construction of private properties in OCR going on now,FOR SURE we will see 1998 all over again in future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Won't be surprise to see many OCR private condos can't even rent out with the rental dropping to below $1200 pm for a 3 Bedroom units and CCR have to cut rent by half!

Exactly, my friend. Exactly.

Why the obsession to compare with 98 (about 20 years ago) when the 80s was also about 20 years from 98? Do you think we will go back to 159psf in the future?

[Arcachon]

Don't think It will happen.

1. Money printing not switch on yet because US have not show the world how to switch on (QE).
2. Most buy OCR because HDB fully paid, money put in Bank only depreciated faster due to money printing.
3. Condo cannot rent out

[onlooker]

For those who are overconfident that there wont be an oversupply

https://mndsingapore.files.wordpress...y-2015_v1b.jpg

[Kelonguni]

For those who are overconfident that there wont be an oversupply

https://mndsingapore.files.wordpress...y-2015_v1b.jpg

I know I must keep very quiet. Else CM9 will be implemented.

[thomastansb]

I am talking about current time because you all saying CCR lower rent, OCR eat shit. Like what you say, what rental do you want? 3k cannot rent out, 2k sure rent out. Also, if OCR empty, CCR also empty. What I am saying is rental affects the market as a whole. Not specifically a particular region. During distress time, of course many empty. But like what you said, rent out 1.2k lor. Better than keeping it empty. Whether can pay the bank or not is not relevant.

rental property won't be empty? Young man, you are too young to experience it!
I let you know, in 1998, many private condos in OCR were left empty, no tenants, even at $1200 pm for a 3bedroom condo units also no taker! That is just how bad it can be!!!!!! Don't say I never remind you that!

Oh forget to tell you that at that time, many CCR condo units had to accept rent at half price of what they used to command.............

So, real life situation of what had happened previously - When shit hit the fence:
1) CCR condo can only rent out at half price of what they used to command.......
2) OCR condo can't find tenant even at $1200 pm for a 3 bedroom unit!

[thomastansb]

Recession comes, everything is useless. 1998, 2001, 2003, 2008. If you are over-leverage, then you are dead. Luckily I managed to get all my loans at 40 years. If not, sure die. But I disagree OCR will be empty. If CCR is $1200, I am sure OCR can rent out $600. Whether you can accept $600 is another question. So empty or not, depends on the owners.

If the government is not going to relax foreign expats' work permit, work passes etc, we are already see rising vacany rates.

When recession comes, even if govt relax foreign expats' work permit also useless!

So conclusion:
With the massive construction of private properties in OCR going on now,FOR SURE we will see 1998 all over again in future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Won't be surprise to see many OCR private condos can't even rent out with the rental dropping to below $1200 pm for a 3 Bedroom units and CCR have to cut rent by half!

[teddybear]

Ha ha ha! Simplistic and wishful thinking do not equate to reality!

When shit hit the fence, there are many more properties available for rental than tenants available.
CCR properties many (not all) are MUCH MORE LUXURIOUS than OCR, so given a certain budget that the tenants can get from companies, they will always go for more luxurious and well-maintained CCR properties rather the less well-maintained and ugly-maintained OCR properties (any wonder why OCR properties have lower maintenance fees? No price to guess that OCR properties have much lower maintenance fees and hence less luxurious kept-up and less well-maintained)!

Ask youself, do your OCR properties have the following to compete with CCR properties? :
1) Full-time estate manager?
2) Full-time concierge service personnel?
3) air-conditioned lift lobby?
4) Beautifully decorated lift lobby with sitting area?
5) Beautifully landscaped estate?
6) People holding high-position to mingle with that can help advance your careers and/or your businesses?
7) .......more!!!.......

After this, please tell us, if you are the tenant, you are given fixed budget (you can spend up to max of the budget), you will chose CCR luxurious condo unit or the poorly-maintained OCR ugly-looking condo unit??????
Even if you offer to rent your OCR property to the tenant at $500 pm they also don't want!

So, end of the day, CCR can still rent out, but may be half the rent.
OCR will be left VACANT for long long time until economy recover and government allow more foreign expats to come to Singapore to work!

I am talking about current time because you all saying CCR lower rent, OCR eat shit. Like what you say, what rental do you want? 3k cannot rent out, 2k sure rent out. Also, if OCR empty, CCR also empty. What I am saying is rental affects the market as a whole. Not specifically a particular region. During distress time, of course many empty. But like what you said, rent out 1.2k lor. Better than keeping it empty. Whether can pay the bank or not is not relevant.

[Kelonguni]

When it comes to the crunch, it is this.

OCR owners mostly can consume much less in their daily lives, and still get by with $1000 rent and no savings. For most of them, CPF pays OA 2k to 4k already depending on whether individual or couple.

CCR I can't say for sure if they can survive the mortgage by collecting 2k rent.

Recession comes, everything is useless. 1998, 2001, 2003, 2008. If you are over-leverage, then you are dead. Luckily I managed to get all my loans at 40 years. If not, sure die. But I disagree OCR will be empty. If CCR is $1200, I am sure OCR can rent out $600. Whether you can accept $600 is another question. So empty or not, depends on the owners.

[teddybear]

By the way, during the long property recession from 1998-2005, there are many many more OCR firesales! What you said do not tally with historical experience!

Why is this so? Because the people in the middle-income will be laid off first! When they have NO job-income, they DON'T EVEN have enought to pay instalment for their own residential properties, let along pay the mortgage for their investment private properties when there are ZERO RENTAL INCOME! The fact is, even if they willing to rent at $500 pm also no taker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When it comes to the crunch, it is this.

OCR owners mostly can consume much less in their daily lives, and still get by with $1000 rent and no savings. For most of them, CPF pays OA 2k to 4k already depending on whether individual or couple.

CCR I can't say for sure if they can survive the mortgage by collecting 2k rent.

[Kelonguni]

By the way, during the long property recession from 1998-2005, there are many many more OCR firesales! What you said do not tally with historical experience!

Why is this so? Because the people in the middle-income will be laid off first! When they have NO job-income, they DON'T EVEN have enought to pay instalment for their own residential properties, let along pay the mortgage for their investment private properties when there are ZERO RENTAL INCOME! The fact is, even if they willing to rent at $500 pm also no taker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So top level won't be affected in a retrenchment and recession? And do you think there are no middle income group owning CCR?

Reality check please.

[teddybear]

Reality check:
Most OCR investment property owners are from middle-income groups, most have HDB addresses.
Most CCR investment property owners are from upper-income groups, most have private property addresses.

Top level always retrench the lower level first. Top level will go last if the situation is that bad, but still, lower level go first, simple as that..........................

Simple question:
Your boss retrench you or you retrench your boss?

So top level won't be affected in a retrenchment and recession? And do you think there are no middle income group owning CCR?

Reality check please.

[Kelonguni]

Reality check:
Most OCR investment property owners are from middle-income groups, most have HDB addresses.
Most CCR investment property owners are from upper-income groups, most have private property addresses.

Top level always retrench the lower level first. Top level will go last if the situation is that bad, but still, lower level go first, simple as that..........................

Simple question:
Your boss retrench you or you retrench your boss?

Funny leh. Your ability to make sweeping statements is amazing.

I have a few sources of income including owning a business but truly at most is a middle income earner, so my boss can't really sack me.

I know that the 98s that you were talking about, the managers were the first to go from what I know, as one of their salary can hire 3 new birds.

[Sandiwara]

Ha ha ha! Simplistic and wishful thinking do not equate to reality!

When shit hit the fence, there are many more properties available for rental than tenants available.
CCR properties many (not all) are MUCH MORE LUXURIOUS than OCR, so given a certain budget that the tenants can get from companies, they will always go for more luxurious and well-maintained CCR properties rather the less well-maintained and ugly-maintained OCR properties (any wonder why OCR properties have lower maintenance fees? No price to guess that OCR properties have much lower maintenance fees and hence less luxurious kept-up and less well-maintained)!

Ask youself, do your OCR properties have the following to compete with CCR properties? :
1) Full-time estate manager?
2) Full-time concierge service personnel?
3) air-conditioned lift lobby?
4) Beautifully decorated lift lobby with sitting area?
5) Beautifully landscaped estate?
6) People holding high-position to mingle with that can help advance your careers and/or your businesses?
7) .......more!!!.......

After this, please tell us, if you are the tenant, you are given fixed budget (you can spend up to max of the budget), you will chose CCR luxurious condo unit or the poorly-maintained OCR ugly-looking condo unit??????
Even if you offer to rent your OCR property to the tenant at $500 pm they also don't want!

So, end of the day, CCR can still rent out, but may be half the rent.
OCR will be left VACANT for long long time until economy recover and government allow more foreign expats to come to Singapore to work!

You are contradicting your self. When shit happen people think about how to survive. People will have no time to think about which one is better quality.

[teddybear]

Very funny reply indeed, beat around the bush just to discredit what I raised? "Fear" not, many people here have brains to think for themselves whether what I said make sense or not.

Anyway, The foreigners who are still working in Singapore means they have kept their jobs, and they can have a choice of living in CCR luxurious condo units (for a budget of OCR mass market condo unit at normal time) instead of OCR mass market condo units!

You are contradicting your self. When shit happen people think about how to survive. People will have no time to think about which one is better quality.

[teddybear]

The truth is, before the manager goes, he need to retrench those people below him first! This was what happened in 1998 !!!!!!!!!!
So, the manager only 1 person cannot afford to keep his CCR condo......
But under him probably 20 people or more cannot afford to keep their OCR condos!!!!!!!!!

Funny leh. Your ability to make sweeping statements is amazing.

I have a few sources of income including owning a business but truly at most is a middle income earner, so my boss can't really sack me.

I know that the 98s that you were talking about, the managers were the first to go from what I know, as one of their salary can hire 3 new birds.

[thomastansb]

You keep thinking the only ones who want to rent your house is those rich people.

There are families, lower end budget people who want to rent as well.

Why Optima can rent 3k for studio when they can get 3.2k at Skysuites? There must be a reason.

Ha ha ha! Simplistic and wishful thinking do not equate to reality!

When shit hit the fence, there are many more properties available for rental than tenants available.
CCR properties many (not all) are MUCH MORE LUXURIOUS than OCR, so given a certain budget that the tenants can get from companies, they will always go for more luxurious and well-maintained CCR properties rather the less well-maintained and ugly-maintained OCR properties (any wonder why OCR properties have lower maintenance fees? No price to guess that OCR properties have much lower maintenance fees and hence less luxurious kept-up and less well-maintained)!

Ask youself, do your OCR properties have the following to compete with CCR properties? :
1) Full-time estate manager?
2) Full-time concierge service personnel?
3) air-conditioned lift lobby?
4) Beautifully decorated lift lobby with sitting area?
5) Beautifully landscaped estate?
6) People holding high-position to mingle with that can help advance your careers and/or your businesses?
7) .......more!!!.......

After this, please tell us, if you are the tenant, you are given fixed budget (you can spend up to max of the budget), you will chose CCR luxurious condo unit or the poorly-maintained OCR ugly-looking condo unit??????
Even if you offer to rent your OCR property to the tenant at $500 pm they also don't want!

So, end of the day, CCR can still rent out, but may be half the rent.
OCR will be left VACANT for long long time until economy recover and government allow more foreign expats to come to Singapore to work!

[thomastansb]

That is why it is amazing. His view is myopic. To me, rental is more or less the same based on historical data. If CCR drops 50% in rental, OCR will be more or less affected by the same %. No such thing called CCR still can rent out but OCR all die. In fact, OCR rental is performing way better than CCR during the dull period now. Woodlands 2 bedders rent out 2.3 to 2.5k easily. CCR 2 bedders maybe 4 to 4.5k. But Woodlands 2 bedder is like 30% of a CCR.

Funny leh. Your ability to make sweeping statements is amazing.

I have a few sources of income including owning a business but truly at most is a middle income earner, so my boss can't really sack me.

I know that the 98s that you were talking about, the managers were the first to go from what I know, as one of their salary can hire 3 new birds.

[thomastansb]

You are wrong. During recession, CCR get hit much more harder. Price drop in CCR is much higher than OCR. Don't believe me, just look at 2008/09 data. CCR drop 50%. OCR maybe 20%. I think this one common sense also if you are a seasoned property investor. Reason is simple. OCR properties are mainly for own stay. They don't care if prices drop 30%. They don't sell. CCR is different. Even if I have a St Regis and I lose 12M, I need to sell means I need to sell. And of course if you count absolute OCR firesales, it will be more than CCR. CCR has a few condos only. OCR, I can't even count.

By the way, during the long property recession from 1998-2005, there are many many more OCR firesales! What you said do not tally with historical experience!

Why is this so? Because the people in the middle-income will be laid off first! When they have NO job-income, they DON'T EVEN have enought to pay instalment for their own residential properties, let along pay the mortgage for their investment private properties when there are ZERO RENTAL INCOME! The fact is, even if they willing to rent at $500 pm also no taker!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[teddybear]

Now now, in that case, shouldn't there be more OCR vacant when shit hit the fan????
You are going to contradict yourself again???

You are wrong. During recession, CCR get hit much more harder. Price drop in CCR is much higher than OCR. Don't believe me, just look at 2008/09 data. CCR drop 50%. OCR maybe 20%. I think this one common sense also if you are a seasoned property investor. Reason is simple. OCR properties are mainly for own stay. They don't care if prices drop 30%. They don't sell. CCR is different. Even if I have a St Regis and I lose 12M, I need to sell means I need to sell. And of course if you count absolute OCR firesales, it will be more than CCR. CCR has a few condos only. OCR, I can't even count.

[teddybear]

Yes, when recession comes, say worst case, not enough tenants, CCR lower rent to below budget of all tenants available in the pool, why would you think the tenant will rent your lousy OCR poorly maintenance ugly-looking OCR condo unit even at $500 pm (given that the company paid for them)? To help the company save money and live in "poverty"?

Anyway, you still haven't answer the below question:
Do your OCR property have the following attractive attributes compared to CCR? :

1) Full-time estate manager?
2) Full-time concierge service personnel?
3) air-conditioned lift lobby?
4) Beautifully decorated lift lobby with sitting area?
5) Beautifully landscaped estate?
6) People holding high-position to mingle with that can help advance your careers and/or your businesses?
7) .......more!!!.......

If without most of the above attributes, if not all of the above, why would the tenant choose your OCR private condo when he won't save any money for himself anyway? Remember, we are talking about real expats, who still can keep their jobs in Singapore during recession.......

Still unwilling to face reality? Doesn't matter.
Anyway, as you said, there are so many more OCR properties than CCR properties, there are so many more OCR owners with vested interest to defend OCR, so any sensible voices against OCR will be drowned off. I will let fellow forumers think for themselves based on the facts I had raised so far.............

You keep thinking the only ones who want to rent your house is those rich people.

There are families, lower end budget people who want to rent as well.

Why Optima can rent 3k for studio when they can get 3.2k at Skysuites? There must be a reason.

Ha ha ha! Simplistic and wishful thinking do not equate to reality!

When shit hit the fence, there are many more properties available for rental than tenants available.
CCR properties many (not all) are MUCH MORE LUXURIOUS than OCR, so given a certain budget that the tenants can get from companies, they will always go for more luxurious and well-maintained CCR properties rather the less well-maintained and ugly-maintained OCR properties (any wonder why OCR properties have lower maintenance fees? No price to guess that OCR properties have much lower maintenance fees and hence less luxurious kept-up and less well-maintained)!

Ask youself, do your OCR properties have the following to compete with CCR properties? :
1) Full-time estate manager?
2) Full-time concierge service personnel?
3) air-conditioned lift lobby?
4) Beautifully decorated lift lobby with sitting area?
5) Beautifully landscaped estate?
6) People holding high-position to mingle with that can help advance your careers and/or your businesses?
7) .......more!!!.......

After this, please tell us, if you are the tenant, you are given fixed budget (you can spend up to max of the budget), you will chose CCR luxurious condo unit or the poorly-maintained OCR ugly-looking condo unit??????
Even if you offer to rent your OCR property to the tenant at $500 pm they also don't want!

So, end of the day, CCR can still rent out, but may be half the rent.
OCR will be left VACANT for long long time until economy recover and government allow more foreign expats to come to Singapore to work!