A few CCR transactions sold at a loss (reported in The Edge)

[bargain hunter]

feels like the space is 2.5 to 4?

below 2.5m, rental can cover. 3 to 4m, certain units have rental yields which are too low.

looks like it. desperate seller.
for buyer, a decent (not yet bargain) deal.

really a good time to look for good deals in CCR. there is always some one who cannot hold. 2-3mil is the bracket many middle income investors stretched to play.

[relax88]

feels like the space is 2.5 to 4?

below 2.5m, rental can cover. 3 to 4m, certain units have rental yields which are too low.

Boss, seems like every week got people put in millions of dollars into luxury properties


so when u going to buy

[bargain hunter]

cannot tell u ah, i may be going to/negotiating/already bought.

Boss, seems like every week got people put in millions of dollars into luxury properties


so when u going to buy

[amk]

cannot tell u ah, i may be going to/negotiating/already bought.

all these words are in buying mode clearly CCR is bargain hunting ground now

so 3-4m sweet spot for you ?

[bargain hunter]

i think it has been good hunting ground for awhile but will also continue to stay so for quite awhile more. gotta take a long term view rite?

if something worth 5m is now in the 3 to 4m range then its a sweet spot. wahahahahahahahhaha

all these words are in buying mode clearly CCR is bargain hunting ground now

so 3-4m sweet spot for you ?

[amk]

there are plenty of PHs sold in 2007 with strange higher psf than normal units. I'm sure you can find these units now with much larger "discounts". that should fit the 3-4mil bracket.

btw you see Mr Wee managed to privatize SingLand. not bad right ? now he can sit on that farrer drive plot forever.

[seletar]

http://sbr.com.sg/residential-proper....8r3L8DA3.dpuf
Published 23 April 2014

Rents for posh apartments to fall 10% this year


Analyst warns against heightened competition.

According to Colliers International, rents are expected to come under further downward pressure. The increasingly competitive market could prompt landlords to lower their rent expectations in order to secure tenants. As such, rents for luxury apartments are projected to decline by up to 10% for the whole of 2014.

Here's more:

Developers of high-end properties may feel the heat to meet the Qualifying Certificate deadline, which requires developers whose shareholders and directors are not all Singaporeans, to complete construction of the development within five years and to sell all units within two years of obtaining the temporary occupation permit.

Furthermore, owners of high-end homes face higher holding costs with the kicking in of the progressive fiscal system on 1 January 2014.

Particularly for investors who are servicing mortgages, the abolishment of tax concessions for vacant properties, as well as higher taxes for high-end properties on the back of a weak leasing market, could be a push factor, prompting them to put their properties on the market for sale, adding to the pool of new unsold units.

The heightened competition could weigh on prices of high-end/luxury residential properties for which an average decline of between 10% and 15% could be seen in 2014.

[bargain hunter]

no leh, UIC now owns singland and UIC is still listed right? does that mean there are still foreign shareholders?

also, they bot the land from gahmen, gotta sell within 5 years no matter what right?

those duplex PHs sold at 5m aka duchess, if that's what u r hinting, hahaha, are not attractive to me. not even if it dips below 4m.

there are plenty of PHs sold in 2007 with strange higher psf than normal units. I'm sure you can find these units now with much larger "discounts". that should fit the 3-4mil bracket.

btw you see Mr Wee managed to privatize SingLand. not bad right ? now he can sit on that farrer drive plot forever.

[hopeful]

no leh, UIC now owns singland and UIC is still listed right? does that mean there are still foreign shareholders?

also, they bot the land from gahmen, gotta sell within 5 years no matter what right?
.....

http://www.rodyk.com/usermedia/docum...y%20Notes1.pdf

but i have some doubts about some of his stuff like
"As such, all residential lands sold by URA or by HDB on behalf of the Government are exempted from the RPA and requirements of a Qualifying Certificate."

[amk]

also, they bot the land from gahmen, gotta sell within 5 years no matter what right?

the 5y limit is to build. no sell limit.

to hopeful: that lawyer is saying, buy from gov land sale program no need QC restrictions, buy from private collective sales need. hey he is a partner in a big law firm, can't be wrong right ?

[teddybear]

It is like saying "You buy direct from me, I give your preferential treatment. You buy from others, I penalize you!" Is this fair and equitable?

the 5y limit is to build. no sell limit.

to hopeful: that lawyer is saying, buy from gov land sale program no need QC restrictions, buy from private collective sales need. hey he is a partner in a big law firm, can't be wrong right ?

[taggy]

hmm... since no QC required for govt land sale, meaning developers can hold as long as they like? then why capitaland need to adjust price for sky habitat ?

[hopeful]

the 5y limit is to build. no sell limit.

to hopeful: that lawyer is saying, buy from gov land sale program no need QC restrictions, buy from private collective sales need. hey he is a partner in a big law firm, can't be wrong right ?

that is the part that left me scratching my head.
govt is saying no more FH sale by govt, since foreigner can sit on FH land for long, (no need QC)
from developer's view, better to buy LH from govt sales than enbloc FH.
if market down, developer can rent out the units if no QC. if have QC, developer cannot rent out the units.

[hopeful]

hmm... since no QC required for govt land sale, meaning developers can hold as long as they like? then why capitaland need to adjust price for sky habitat ?

the leasehold nature of property will ensure that developer sell as fast as possible. time is running out for leasehold whereas FH's time doesnt run out.

it also means no more FH govt land sale.

[hopeful]

....
from developer's view, better to buy LH from govt sales than enbloc FH.
if market down, developer can rent out the units if no QC. if have QC, developer cannot rent out the units.

continuation:
from developer's view, govt land sales are better as no QC restrictions. can rent out units when market down.

for those FH owners thinking of enbloc, there are only a few developers that can enbloc FH without QC, (for eg. FEO), so it is like a monopsony. pricing power will be with FEO and not the FH owners.

[amk]

CAPL has to sell cause it is answerable to public shareholders (it needs to report PnLs) and its PnL has an impact on its borrowing cost. A private company dun have to show its books.

to hopeful/teddybear: that's why that lawyer said it is unfair. QC should not require "sell by" time.

[teddybear]

Have to agree that it is not just "unfair", but "terribly unfair and inequitable"!
If laws are set like that,

CAPL has to sell cause it is answerable to public shareholders (it needs to report PnLs) and its PnL has an impact on its borrowing cost. A private company dun have to show its books.

to hopeful/teddybear: that's why that lawyer said it is unfair. QC should not require "sell by" time.

[taggy]

continuation:
from developer's view, govt land sales are better as no QC restrictions. can rent out units when market down.

for those FH owners thinking of enbloc, there are only a few developers that can enbloc FH without QC, (for eg. FEO), so it is like a monopsony. pricing power will be with FEO and not the FH owners.

actually like that not only affect FH owners who like to enbloc, LH owners who want to enbloc also affected right?
Non pure SG Developers (require QC) enbloc a LH land, beside lease topup, also have to sell within the time frame (to avoid extension charges) right?

GLS have unfair advantage, we should band together to go KPKB

[Allthepies]

It is not a matter of fair or not fair, it is just a method to direct development where the government wants it...

The government entices developers to come bid and develope government lands for the greater good of singapore and singaporeans...

[Yuki]

I kept reading that many people estimate that the prices will drop like 20, 30 or even 40 per cent. Due to oversupply or most likely even another crisis , black swan.

Honesty when a financial crisis happens wouldn't that affect all the properties in Singapore?

N most people might risk losing their job when that happens. Wouldnt bank resist loaning people for purchase, with much higher interest rates? Yet there are many people who seem to have jobs which are immune to such crisis n kept saying they will buy only when such an event happens.

I m a noob in this and just sharing my observations.

N lastly what should be the so called right property price when lets say the property cycles didn't or never happen in the past?
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.co...operty-cycles/

Where should the base line start?

[Allthepies]

Buy within ur means and when u spot a good buy...timing the market is very difficult and the condition then may turn negative for u eg bank refuse to match the valuation, interest rate very high, fear of further price drop lead to inaction....

Treat property investment like any investment with a long time horizon...

[Yuki]

I kept reading that many people estimate that the prices will drop like 20, 30 or even 40 per cent. Due to oversupply or most likely even another crisis , black swan.

Honesty when a financial crisis happens wouldn't that affect all the properties in Singapore?

N most people might risk losing their job when that happens. Wouldnt bank resist loaning people for purchase, with much higher interest rates? Yet there are many people who seem to have jobs which are immune to such crisis n kept saying they will buy only when such an event happens.

I m a noob in this and just sharing my observations.

N lastly what should be the so called right property price when lets say the property cycles didn't or never happen in the past?
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.co...operty-cycles/

Where should the base line start?

In addition if there is a huge financial crisis that impact the region, wouldn't that make the recovery even more painful n even longer?

By then worth to buy for investment? If for home stay ok lah but if for investment. .most likely harder to rent n mran need to hold a long long time before the market recovers that means no good? Since supply excess no people or investors to soak up the excess wouldnt that be a vicious cycle?

For those holding multiple properties value drop n rental so much depressed might even want to depose some to reduce the loss if their holding costs are increased when the recovery is very long? More vicious cycle?

[minority]

I kept reading that many people estimate that the prices will drop like 20, 30 or even 40 per cent. Due to oversupply or most likely even another crisis , black swan.

Honesty when a financial crisis happens wouldn't that affect all the properties in Singapore?

N most people might risk losing their job when that happens. Wouldnt bank resist loaning people for purchase, with much higher interest rates? Yet there are many people who seem to have jobs which are immune to such crisis n kept saying they will buy only when such an event happens.

I m a noob in this and just sharing my observations.

N lastly what should be the so called right property price when lets say the property cycles didn't or never happen in the past?
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.co...operty-cycles/

Where should the base line start?

This is human mentality. they only focus on the points that they think they want to benefit. Many times when the crisis comes many worry and complain that they might loose job. its the hind sight that they are 10/10 vision. Always looking at the rear view mirror thinking that they will do it another way if it happens again.

frankly there will always be risk with big ticket investment. being good times and bad times. So the difference is the will and judgement that separate the man from the boys.

[walkthetiger]

interest rate very high, fear of further price drop lead to inaction....

Treat property investment like any investment with a long time horizon...

...Welcome the high interest rate....great opportunity coming...as I need no loan actually....

[teddybear]

The way you are saying is that the govt can disregards other land and properties and formulate laws to give incentives to developers to buy their own land while penalizing others? This I don't agree when laws is not set in a fair and equitable manner. Remember Singapore national pledge that all should be treated fairly and equally regardless of who you are?

The govt should encourage rejuvenation on all land and not just their own land. So, it appears that they are not formulating law in a fair and equitable manner and treating all fairly (or rather, they are penalizing old properties' owners since they are dis-incentiving enbloc land over their own land sale)......................

It is not a matter of fair or not fair, it is just a method to direct development where the government wants it...

The government entices developers to come bid and develope government lands for the greater good of singapore and singaporeans...

[Yuki]

Buy within ur means and when u spot a good buy...timing the market is very difficult and the condition then may turn negative for u eg bank refuse to match the valuation, interest rate very high, fear of further price drop lead to inaction....

Treat property investment like any investment with a long time horizon...

I agree. So hard to time.

Even if timed so well, the situation will be so bad that I don't think many investors will want to buy unless they are so rich that they are not affected at all.

But then investors being investors will be impacted coz their existing investments will be -vely affected by the downturn mah. Will they continue to buy depressed properties when that happens? i.e. take on more risks that the properties they buy will not appreciate lets say 10 or 20 i.e. like 1997 bubble or even 30 years down the road?

Maybe some people in the past have done that? Can share your experience and insights?

[Yuki]

This is human mentality. they only focus on the points that they think they want to benefit. Many times when the crisis comes many worry and complain that they might loose job. its the hind sight that they are 10/10 vision. Always looking at the rear view mirror thinking that they will do it another way if it happens again.

frankly there will always be risk with big ticket investment. being good times and bad times. So the difference is the will and judgement that separate the man from the boys.

Yes that's right. By then everyone will be probably worry over their jobs, and their existing investment (i.e. stocks, bonds etc??)

So those who kept wishing for the property to crash big time ...do they think they will really still want to buy when that happens?

Maybe very very very rich people will do that i.e. still very rich even if they lost a significant chunk of their wealth and willing to take on more risk by still buying during that period coz they can afford to wait even 30 years down the road.

But i doubt such people prowl the forums?

In short, I hope that the market will be stable i.e. price rise moderately after the price drop due to the cooling measures.

It is no good to most people when the worse case scenario happens.

[minority]

Yes that's right. By then everyone will be probably worry over their jobs, and their existing investment (i.e. stocks, bonds etc??)

So those who kept wishing for the property to crash big time ...do they think they will really still want to buy when that happens?

Maybe very very very rich people will do that i.e. still very rich even if they lost a significant chunk of their wealth and willing to take on more risk by still buying during that period coz they can afford to wait even 30 years down the road.

But i doubt such people prowl the forums?

In short, I hope that the market will be stable i.e. price rise moderately after the price drop due to the cooling measures.

It is no good to most people when the worse case scenario happens.

Actually Rich people also have rich people worry. they worry they lose their life style. When people are rich. I am talking about the real rich they are more concern of wealth preservation. Not necessary go all out to acquire more wealth.

[minority]

The way you are saying is that the govt can disregards other land and properties and formulate laws to give incentives to developers to buy their own land while penalizing others? This I don't agree when laws is not set in a fair and equitable manner. Remember Singapore national pledge that all should be treated fairly and equally regardless of who you are?

The govt should encourage rejuvenation on all land and not just their own land. So, it appears that they are not formulating law in a fair and equitable manner and treating all fairly (or rather, they are penalizing old properties' owners since they are dis-incentiving enbloc land over their own land sale)......................

and u complain not fair. LOL.. when enblocker asking sky high price and developers willing to pay and the enblocker flush with cash jump back into the market leveraging for more units creating a relentless feedback loop to the boom cycle. and who was compiling about spiralling prices ah?


To stop price from spiralling is to take the liquidity out of the system. and what ever remaining liquidity should be soak up by the government system in new land sales so there are no $$$ feeding back into the system again.

want fair? lol.. or want cheaper? make up ur mind.

[teddybear]

Ensuring fairness and equality is the basic fundamental principle governing Singapore as built into Singapore's National pledge and is the bedrock of "Democracy".

The moment all kind of excuses are being given just for the sake of trying not to ensure fairness and equality means they are going down the slippery slope. If they can't ensure fairness and equality, then stop calling themselves being a "Democracy" and time to amend the "National Pledge" (because just for show only and they don't even honour themselves).

If by doing so, property price crash, so be it. People have to face the consequences to ensure "democracy", "fairness and equality" given their ineffective policy.

If by doing so, property price go up more, so be it. People have to face the consequences to ensure "democracy", "fairness and equality" given their ineffective policy.

The worst is to implement policies that are NOT fair and not equitable and then give all kind excuses for doing so. May be the real truth is that their all other policies just doesn't work that is why must need another separate NOT fair and NOT equitable policy (which anyway doesn't guarantee will work).

and u complain not fair. LOL.. when enblocker asking sky high price and developers willing to pay and the enblocker flush with cash jump back into the market leveraging for more units creating a relentless feedback loop to the boom cycle. and who was compiling about spiralling prices ah?


To stop price from spiralling is to take the liquidity out of the system. and what ever remaining liquidity should be soak up by the government system in new land sales so there are no $$$ feeding back into the system again.

want fair? lol.. or want cheaper? make up ur mind.