A few CCR transactions sold at a loss (reported in The Edge)

[amk]

1800psf is way overvalued right? better locations are at 1800psf or below. i can't see the charm of rooms facing hwa chong hostel. and as bro proud owner has said, too deep in to walk from the mrt.

the row facing landed side is obviously better.
this is a quiet estate with easy access. it's not that deep in lah. 1600psf nowadays you see even in outskirts 99y projects. this one is 1km to both NYPS and RGPS so there is a value in this. I think 1800psf for a FH low density estate is fair value, if not because of the cooling measures it should be higher. In today's market if there is a seller he has to sell below fair value so not surprised to see 1700psf ads. this is gd bargain hunting time.

maplewoods and the like are so far away already... from duchess ares you have ppl jogging to botanic garden. it's very near town.

[amk]

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ale-the-tresor maybe less luxurious but more practical be it the unit's layout or proximity to mrt/shops?

I have seen this unit actually. very good location just behind MRT, only thing is that, the facing of this unit is direct afternoon sun, very very hot. this is why it is asking <1800psf. If you dun mind the heat, it is a good buy. Agent told me owner is an ang mo not even living in SG, keen to off load this quickly.

[HP65]

Looks like quite a number of us are looking at the same area :-) Personally I like Duchess Resi but not at the price Wee was selling to his 'no so close associates'. Now that prices have moderated, it does seem more attractive but I feel anything above $1700 is a tad too much. For $1700 and above, I would be looking at Newton, Novena and perhaps River Valley (closer to town side). There are attractive buys over at River Valley area like Wharves Resi, River Gate too.

The units facing the landed are definitely better imo. Do note there are a couple of empty units at DR so good rental yield can be a challenge.

For the angmos, they are definitely game to push their baby prams to Botanical Gardens but I'll rather drive there via Lutheran Rd. Besides, walking/ jogging along busy and dusty Bukit Timah is rather unhealthy and defeats the whole purpose of healthy living. I used to jog within the estate (some flat ground eg Jln Haji Alias) but over the last 5-8 years, traffic has grown considerably. I considered this property (and others around here) coz there is a good spread of tenants to target (expats, locals gunning for NYPS / RGPS). And I actually thought of retiring in it when I'm older as I dun fancy staying in a landed when I'm old. So if I think this way, I'm sure some of my neighbours also share the same idea as me, thus, the investment potential is there too.

Just sharing my thoughts....Disclaimer: I'm vested in this area but not in Duchess Residences.

[bargain hunter]

agree with u on that 1700psf thing. > 1,700psf why not look at those areas you mentioned instead of this place. i'm not really a bukit timah person so i've got a curious question to ask you guys. is sixth avenue residences so bad that it warrants a huge discount to duchess residences?

Looks like quite a number of us are looking at the same area :-) Personally I like Duchess Resi but not at the price Wee was selling to his 'no so close associates'. Now that prices have moderated, it does seem more attractive but I feel anything above $1700 is a tad too much. For $1700 and above, I would be looking at Newton, Novena and perhaps River Valley (closer to town side). There are attractive buys over at River Valley area like Wharves Resi, River Gate too.

The units facing the landed are definitely better imo. Do note there are a couple of empty units at DR so good rental yield can be a challenge.

For the angmos, they are definitely game to push their baby prams to Botanical Gardens but I'll rather drive there via Lutheran Rd. Besides, walking/ jogging along busy and dusty Bukit Timah is rather unhealthy and defeats the whole purpose of healthy living. I used to jog within the estate (some flat ground eg Jln Haji Alias) but over the last 5-8 years, traffic has grown considerably. I considered this property (and others around here) coz there is a good spread of tenants to target (expats, locals gunning for NYPS / RGPS). And I actually thought of retiring in it when I'm older as I dun fancy staying in a landed when I'm old. So if I think this way, I'm sure some of my neighbours also share the same idea as me, thus, the investment potential is there too.

Just sharing my thoughts....Disclaimer: I'm vested in this area but not in Duchess Residences.

[amk]

to HP65: totally valid points. however just look back at your numbers, dun you feel 1800 for newton is severely "under valued" ? do you remember the former Lincoln Suites site was enbloced at 1800psf ? and Viva started selling at 2500psf (or was it more?) ? I am referring to "fair value". I still think duchess area should be worth 1800, whereas Newton should be worth more, like 2000 psf. I dun mean "good buying price today", I meant long term fair value. In today's distressed market, one should of course gun for way below fair value prices.

to bargain hunter: it is the "6th" ave already, so far from botanic garden

[amk]

...For the angmos, they are definitely game to push their baby prams to Botanical Gardens but I'll rather drive there via Lutheran Rd.

btw, there is a new launch imminent near Lutheran church, you can be sure the launch price is >2000psf.

[bargain hunter]

btw, there is a new launch imminent near Lutheran church, you can be sure the launch price is >2000psf.

but that will likely be boutique/mickey mouse? of course > 2000psf.

can bet that the units will be smaller than the units at duke's residences nearby.

[bargain hunter]

to HP65: totally valid points. however just look back at your numbers, dun you feel 1800 for newton is severely "under valued" ? do you remember the former Lincoln Suites site was enbloced at 1800psf ? and Viva started selling at 2500psf (or was it more?) ? I am referring to "fair value". I still think duchess area should be worth 1800, whereas Newton should be worth more, like 2000 psf. I dun mean "good buying price today", I meant long term fair value. In today's distressed market, one should of course gun for way below fair value prices.

to bargain hunter: it is the "6th" ave already, so far from botanic garden

botanic gardens is really such a big thing huh? sure or not. doesn't that make Shelford nearer instead?

[proud owner]

botanic gardens is really such a big thing huh? sure or not. doesn't that make Shelford nearer instead?

hahahah


You can find within 1km to NYPS, Woollerton park, Gallop Green, Sommerview park ... all FH, EVEN nearer to MRT and Botanic gardens .... and Dempsey , Orchard, HV, etc etc ....

[amk]

botanic gardens is really such a big thing huh? sure or not. doesn't that make Shelford nearer instead?

shelford is very hilly, walk up and down, duchess side is basically flat, easy to jog/walk.
shelford side has its unique problem of access, there is only one way in/out from dunean, (imagine you come back from town, how you get into shelford ? u turn at bt timah); duchess side the access goes several ways;
houses after namly generally lose the "near town/near botanic garden" feel...

[amk]

hahahah


You can find within 1km to NYPS, Woollerton park, Gallop Green, Sommerview park ... all FH, EVEN nearer to MRT and Botanic gardens .... and Dempsey , Orchard, HV, etc etc ....

for argument sake, how abt 1km to BOTH NYPS/RGPS , any of these Farrer road side ptis can ? Not to mention a station in CCL is not really that useful. DTL goes straight to town, not around...

[proud owner]

for argument sake, how abt 1km to BOTH NYPS/RGPS , any of these Farrer road side ptis can ? Not to mention a station in CCL is not really that useful. DTL goes straight to town, not around...

yes i dont disagree

RGPS if you have boys only then no use also ...


The one thing i personally dont quite like abt Bkt timah and Dunearn is the LONG road ... to get to the other side ..always must do U turn ...

CCL 1 stop to Botanic gardens Stn .. can change to DTL too ... maybe cannot get a seat lah ... then again ... by the time the train reaches TKK Stn...already fully occupied by fellow Hillview-ians ...

LOL ...

[bargain hunter]

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ess-residences

amazing rental yield for a 5 to 6m ppty lol. oops sorry, maybe now only worth 3.5m. but then again, even at 3.5m, asking 7k and possibly still negotiable?!

[bargain hunter]

Orange Grove Resi continues its losing streak....................

Sold 11 MAR 2016 33 ORANGE GROVE ROAD #XX-XX 2,250sq ft 1,711psf
Bought 13 FEB 2007 2,088psf

[amk]

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ess-residences

amazing rental yield for a 5 to 6m ppty lol. oops sorry, maybe now only worth 3.5m. but then again, even at 3.5m, asking 7k and possibly still negotiable?!

on the other hand :

DUCHESS RESIDENCES DUCHESS AVENUE 10 Non-landed Properties 4 9,200 2900 to 3000 Feb-16

[bargain hunter]

on the other hand :

DUCHESS RESIDENCES DUCHESS AVENUE 10 Non-landed Properties 4 9,200 2900 to 3000 Feb-16

that can be someone who renewed the lease? this advert for rental listing seems genuine enough to me.

there are 3 adverts. very ganjiong already leh.

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ess-residences

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ess-residences

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...ess-residences

[challenger]

to HP65: totally valid points. however just look back at your numbers, dun you feel 1800 for newton is severely "under valued" ? do you remember the former Lincoln Suites site was enbloced at 1800psf ? and Viva started selling at 2500psf (or was it more?) ? I am referring to "fair value". I still think duchess area should be worth 1800, whereas Newton should be worth more, like 2000 psf. I dun mean "good buying price today", I meant long term fair value. In today's distressed market, one should of course gun for way below fair value prices.

to bargain hunter: it is the "6th" ave already, so far from botanic garden

In this market, rental yield is only 1.5% if buying at 1800psf, and the direction seems to be downwards in the near future. I think there is a more to fall.

If long term fair value is $1800psf, then buying at this price now means no capital gain?

[Werther]

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...t-sentosa-cove

I asked my friend who is looking for sentosa cove to call this agent.

He said the unit was sold last month. Maybe it is the same unit that was sold earlier.

He said the garden about 400 sq ft and built in 1200 sq ft, no view.

Better to buy the proper 2 bedroom.

But price wise, the unit sold @1150psf is still the cheapest so far.

Now units are still calling for 1700 sf.

So the buyer who bought may turn out to be the winner in the next property run.

Anyway, maintenance all in about $800 per month.

[HP65]

agree with u on that 1700psf thing. > 1,700psf why not look at those areas you mentioned instead of this place. i'm not really a bukit timah person so i've got a curious question to ask you guys. is sixth avenue residences so bad that it warrants a huge discount to duchess residences?

For Sixth Ave Resi, I find the overall feeling of the development to be less luxurious. There are also 2-bedders in the development whereas DR smallest units are already 3-bedders of >1400 sqf (with significant balcony space though, so maybe to some that's a - point). Finally, look at the unit's layout, Six Ave Resi are of the typical, cookie cutter design which you find in many other condos. DR designs, while it's a blatant carried over design of Glentrees, on the other hand feels more spacious and special. Eg, the master toilets, it's spacious enough for dual basin.

Having said that, a couple of recent transactions at 6th Ave Resi seems rather attractively priced. Haven't investigate which stacks are those. But bear in mind, I think no local school is within 1 km of it.

[bargain hunter]

the edge already reported on it last weekend. the unit has a view................ELECTRICAL SUBSTATION VIEW................. the seller bought during 2008 crisis at 12xxpsf also thinking he could be the winner during the next run. no such luck.

I asked my friend who is looking for sentosa cove to call this agent.

He said the unit was sold last month. Maybe it is the same unit that was sold earlier.

He said the garden about 400 sq ft and built in 1200 sq ft, no view.

Better to buy the proper 2 bedroom.

But price wise, the unit sold @1150psf is still the cheapest so far.

Now units are still calling for 1700 sf.

So the buyer who bought may turn out to be the winner in the next property run.

Anyway, maintenance all in about $800 per month.

[bargain hunter]

For Sixth Ave Resi, I find the overall feeling of the development to be less luxurious. There are also 2-bedders in the development whereas DR smallest units are already 3-bedders of >1400 sqf (with significant balcony space though, so maybe to some that's a - point). Finally, look at the unit's layout, Six Ave Resi are of the typical, cookie cutter design which you find in many other condos. DR designs, while it's a blatant carried over design of Glentrees, on the other hand feels more spacious and special. Eg, the master toilets, it's spacious enough for dual basin.

Having said that, a couple of recent transactions at 6th Ave Resi seems rather attractively priced. Haven't investigate which stacks are those. But bear in mind, I think no local school is within 1 km of it.

thanks for info. also, right from the start, sixth avenue resi was a pre boom product made with less luxurious fittings and sold at iirc 1000psf?

[HP65]

to HP65: totally valid points. however just look back at your numbers, dun you feel 1800 for newton is severely "under valued" ? do you remember the former Lincoln Suites site was enbloced at 1800psf ? and Viva started selling at 2500psf (or was it more?) ? I am referring to "fair value". I still think duchess area should be worth 1800, whereas Newton should be worth more, like 2000 psf. I dun mean "good buying price today", I meant long term fair value. In today's distressed market, one should of course gun for way below fair value prices.

to bargain hunter: it is the "6th" ave already, so far from botanic garden

Don't know why, probably old school thinking, I feel the closer it is to orchard road, the more prestigious that locale. Thus, I would pay more for Newton vs Duchess area..Rght now, it's possible to find units at $1750 psf over at Newton and River Valley, so why should I pay almost the same amount for Duchess or Shelford area?

[HP65]

to HP65: totally valid points. however just look back at your numbers, dun you feel 1800 for newton is severely "under valued" ? do you remember the former Lincoln Suites site was enbloced at 1800psf ? and Viva started selling at 2500psf (or was it more?) ? I am referring to "fair value". I still think duchess area should be worth 1800, whereas Newton should be worth more, like 2000 psf. I dun mean "good buying price today", I meant long term fair value. In today's distressed market, one should of course gun for way below fair value prices.

to bargain hunter: it is the "6th" ave already, so far from botanic garden

Sorry amk, I was a little tired last night when I read your post and didn't fully reply to you.

Let me explain a little how I derive a fair value for a typical location. I always start with Orchard Road (Paterson, Cairhill Area) and see what kind of prices are they transacting at. Maybe because The Paterson was my first foray in an investment property and thus the familiarity. From there I start 'moving out' of Orchard Rd and assign a value to a property in Newton, let's say Park Infinia. There must be a relative discount for the Park Infinia condo vs The Paterson naturally. Of course there will be adjustments for individual attributes eg proximity to good schools, amenities etc.

And so, right now if I look at Park Infinia, Newton One etc and compared it with Duchess Residences, I do not feel there is a clear discount in prices of DR. It could be that the investors at DR bought at a high prices from Wee but that's their problem. Right now, current transactions at Newton One and Park Infinia goes for $1800 psf. And Paterson condos of similar size and age can be had at $1900/2000 psf I reckon (tested a few and I had a feeling some are keen to sell at these prices). And therefore, imo, the 'Fair Value' for DR should be $1600ish. Maybe coz I'm an accountant and thus in all accountant's dictionary, 'fair value' is derived from current, arms length transactions.

Ok, 1 more tip I would like to share here. The rules I set for myself only applies to investment properties. My first reference point was really 1997/8 prices for The Paterson which were going for $1500ish psf. That is my 'URA ppty index of 100' if I may call it. What do we have in 1997? What were the income levels? What about AFC? Fast forward to 2016. What are people earning now? What about inflation from 1997? And from there, I assess what is my own valuation or worth of the ppty (note, this might be very different from 'fair value').

Every individual has their own reference point. I just happen to choose Orchard. I have missed out on OCR boom as I never believed in investing in stories (Changi business park, remaking Jurong etc) but again it could be due to my profession. But I know I can sleep easier if I hold ppty in Orchard, Newton area so I have no regrets. I also applaud those braver investors who venture to OCR ppty...as ultimately, it will trickle back to CCR.

Sorry for the long post!

[bargain hunter]

Sorry amk, I was a little tired last night when I read your post and didn't fully reply to you.

Let me explain a little how I derive a fair value for a typical location. I always start with Orchard Road (Paterson, Cairhill Area) and see what kind of prices are they transacting at. Maybe because The Paterson was my first foray in an investment property and thus the familiarity. From there I start 'moving out' of Orchard Rd and assign a value to a property in Newton, let's say Park Infinia. There must be a relative discount for the Park Infinia condo vs The Paterson naturally. Of course there will be adjustments for individual attributes eg proximity to good schools, amenities etc.

And so, right now if I look at Park Infinia, Newton One etc and compared it with Duchess Residences, I do not feel there is a clear discount in prices of DR. It could be that the investors at DR bought at a high prices from Wee but that's their problem. Right now, current transactions at Newton One and Park Infinia goes for $1800 psf. And Paterson condos of similar size and age can be had at $1900/2000 psf I reckon (tested a few and I had a feeling some are keen to sell at these prices). And therefore, imo, the 'Fair Value' for DR should be $1600ish. Maybe coz I'm an accountant and thus in all accountant's dictionary, 'fair value' is derived from current, arms length transactions.

Ok, 1 more tip I would like to share here. The rules I set for myself only applies to investment properties. My first reference point was really 1997/8 prices for The Paterson which were going for $1500ish psf. That is my 'URA ppty index of 100' if I may call it. What do we have in 1997? What were the income levels? What about AFC? Fast forward to 2016. What are people earning now? What about inflation from 1997? And from there, I assess what is my own valuation or worth of the ppty (note, this might be very different from 'fair value').

Every individual has their own reference point. I just happen to choose Orchard. I have missed out on OCR boom as I never believed in investing in stories (Changi business park, remaking Jurong etc) but again it could be due to my profession. But I know I can sleep easier if I hold ppty in Orchard, Newton area so I have no regrets. I also applaud those braver investors who venture to OCR ppty...as ultimately, it will trickle back to CCR.

Sorry for the long post!

that's good sharing. i also suppose u r referring to the standard 3 bedders? coz we know that the 4 bedders of the projects u mentioned have been transacted at discounts to the prices u mentioned.

[bargain hunter]

#29-08 VIVA bought at $7,871,796 from developer is for sale at $10m nego.

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi.../for-sale-viva

[bargain hunter]

VIVA #29-09 bought at $6,428,592 from developer is also for sale at $8m nego

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi.../for-sale-viva

[bargain hunter]

#19-09 The Laurels bought at $9,865,960 from developer is for sale at $10m

http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...cairnhill-road

[HP65]

that's good sharing. i also suppose u r referring to the standard 3 bedders? coz we know that the 4 bedders of the projects u mentioned have been transacted at discounts to the prices u mentioned.

Oh yes, standard 3 bedders or 2+Study. As my strategy has always been to target local families aiming to stay within 1 km of popular schools and small expat family (either single or couple).

[proud owner]

Sorry amk, I was a little tired last night when I read your post and didn't fully reply to you.

Let me explain a little how I derive a fair value for a typical location. I always start with Orchard Road (Paterson, Cairhill Area) and see what kind of prices are they transacting at. Maybe because The Paterson was my first foray in an investment property and thus the familiarity. From there I start 'moving out' of Orchard Rd and assign a value to a property in Newton, let's say Park Infinia. There must be a relative discount for the Park Infinia condo vs The Paterson naturally. Of course there will be adjustments for individual attributes eg proximity to good schools, amenities etc.

And so, right now if I look at Park Infinia, Newton One etc and compared it with Duchess Residences, I do not feel there is a clear discount in prices of DR. It could be that the investors at DR bought at a high prices from Wee but that's their problem. Right now, current transactions at Newton One and Park Infinia goes for $1800 psf. And Paterson condos of similar size and age can be had at $1900/2000 psf I reckon (tested a few and I had a feeling some are keen to sell at these prices). And therefore, imo, the 'Fair Value' for DR should be $1600ish. Maybe coz I'm an accountant and thus in all accountant's dictionary, 'fair value' is derived from current, arms length transactions.

Ok, 1 more tip I would like to share here. The rules I set for myself only applies to investment properties. My first reference point was really 1997/8 prices for The Paterson which were going for $1500ish psf. That is my 'URA ppty index of 100' if I may call it. What do we have in 1997? What were the income levels? What about AFC? Fast forward to 2016. What are people earning now? What about inflation from 1997? And from there, I assess what is my own valuation or worth of the ppty (note, this might be very different from 'fair value').

Every individual has their own reference point. I just happen to choose Orchard. I have missed out on OCR boom as I never believed in investing in stories (Changi business park, remaking Jurong etc) but again it could be due to my profession. But I know I can sleep easier if I hold ppty in Orchard, Newton area so I have no regrets. I also applaud those braver investors who venture to OCR ppty...as ultimately, it will trickle back to CCR.

Sorry for the long post!

Great article.

I shared many of your views.

For own stay, it will be a different sets of yardsticks.

For me even for investments, i add another criteria.

Apart from liking it and wanting to also live in it, I try to also assess, which group of tenants would want to rent at that location.

Which is why my portfolio includes D5... nice 'away from city' environment, yet sufficient "shipping' people, NUS people, who would rent from me.

And now, with the Mapletree business centre at Alexandra ... the tenant pool also increased.

With the ports moving away from keppel ...thru pasir panjang....to Tuas ... seafront living etc ... D5 continues to gain popularity.


So for investment, i tend to assess the POTENTIAL of the location as well..

and i do not limit myself to just D9 10 11...

[HP65]

Great article.

I shared many of your views.

For own stay, it will be a different sets of yardsticks.

For me even for investments, i add another criteria.

Apart from liking it and wanting to also live in it, I try to also assess, which group of tenants would want to rent at that location.

Which is why my portfolio includes D5... nice 'away from city' environment, yet sufficient "shipping' people, NUS people, who would rent from me.

And now, with the Mapletree business centre at Alexandra ... the tenant pool also increased.

With the ports moving away from keppel ...thru pasir panjang....to Tuas ... seafront living etc ... D5 continues to gain popularity.


So for investment, i tend to assess the POTENTIAL of the location as well..

and i do not limit myself to just D9 10 11...

Thanks PO, I did consider D5 after visiting a colleague who stays at Pepys Hill. Had a look at a couple of units at Treasure Place, The Grandhill, Peak at Balmeg, all PH units. Not sure if they have been sold but I especially like the Treasure Place. Owner was reasonable in his asking price, unit faces vista park so no afternoon sun, fresh air. Peaceful and quiet.

On the other hand, The Grandhill has an unblock view towards the future temporary port but then I'm not keen to face cranes and there were audible noise from the container trucks as they exit West Coast Highway. Have to tahan until 2030 to realize its potential when the port activities are relocated to Tuas.

End of the day, I found something in D10. An unexpected find.