The Infiniti (D5, Freehold, Frasers Centrepoint)

[Reporter]

Freefly did the comparison because he owns a property in NJ and would like to own one in SG? Duh.

OK. Got it.

He owns an orange and would like to own an apple too.
You guys help to compare orange with apple.

Happy comparing!

[freefly4587]

I was referring to this guy, below, who was comparing oranges with apples. the tax base for the US is valuation, for us it is annual rental potential, or annual value. So when he compared our rates with theirs, he was comparing chimpanzees with hippos.


I understand what PO said. but i was just trying to correct the guy that compared oranges with apples.

Thanks for all the clarifications. Belielve you are right as I just realized property tax here is based on annual value which is 12months rent. So compared with owing a property in NJ, Singapore is much much cheaper.

Thanks.

[cloudwinds]

Think you have a good point there. Maybe we never lived in West facing unit in Singapore. We have been in an East-North facing unit for a year. Problem is we get some sunshine in the morning but the sun here quickly moves up to the top at noon, then the room is not covered rest of the day. the bathroom attached to master room is never dry, and towels go bad quickly every two months so have to change frequently. same with bathing towers. Not to mention the other bath which is located inside building that has no sunshines....so we kind of thinking abt west facing unit plus some thick curtain. However, don't know it will be the other extremem to be baking hot.

As to Botannia, we like it very much and thought it has really top of class finish with its open kitchen design and a long bar table seperating the living room and kitchen. this feels more like high end western condos. Maybe western cooking was never that oily and greesy, so open kitchen always gives you a great feel. The way those big windows open are also plus.

Only thing is price. if you compare how much psf went up since Jun, you would see the biggest is Botannia, followed by Carabelle and then Infiniti. If you trace further back on these forums what psf are paid for these places back in 07-08, you can see current psf has already approaching or cross over 07Q4 historical highs, while the actually economy is still in bad shape. The singapore economy is closely tied to US donimant western economy. the employment number kept blooding in Q4 09. If US recovery is sluggish, or there is a double dip if its corporate loans sector blows up following the sumprime sector, then there will be another financial crisis.

As of yesterday, polls on institutional investors shows that 55% believes it will be a bear year for stock, vs 45% believes it is bull year.

As to West Coast Singapore property price, we believe it is driven by both investment money and follow up demand from some real buyers who missed out the mid-09 lows. If you look at price appreciation in prime area, the growth is minimal and outlook is quite cautious. so where do those investment money go? stocks are risky given its 100% recovery driven by liquidity and holding cash is facing significant inflation risks. So they go into the mass condo market -- heard about investor bought 4-5 condos in Botannia.

The question is more if real buy to live in buyers will be enticed into the game worrying price will go up higher. For all these real live-in buyers to swamp in, they will be locked up in a high price. When US interest rate is not zero but back to normal 4-5%, the Singapore mortgage will up as well, same with their monthly payments - the fixed loan here is only 3 years. Employment as a lagging factor will not pick up that quickly, so some people will be caught when interest moves up and their salary is stable.

I agree there are many future prospects for West Coast, however, these prospects did not change over the last 6months, over which time, psf for Botannia increased from 700 to 900 or 950 now. It is all because the hundred tree, but the problem with real estate price is the most recently sold property set up the price for the whole region, but if you look at overall supply/demand - nothing supports such as drastic price moves.

Supply are ample given four/five huge recent developments - botannia, carabelle, infiniti, monterey park, hundred tree etc. these big supplies will be significant overhang for rent/price to go up in the future.

Demand side are fragile, given the instability of jobs, and many financial employees not getting a big cash bonus this year like those in Hong Kong supported by China.

Just our two cents. but we are buy to live in buyers. so we just have to take the price or rent a place, which is not a bad idea as well than accepting capital loss plus paying bank loan mortgages.

Question - any real estate property tax to pay in Singapore?

I agreed with what you said and would suggest that you wait till second half of the year when the Parc Condo is ready TOP. With another 600 units in the market, buyer definately have more choice.

In my opinion, paying 900 PSF per month is really risky. Anyway, end of last year, MAS warn investor about property purchase. They warned that if the economy pick up, interest rate will go up. If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down. This is as good as saying "Be careful".

I still remember back in 98 where a lot of my friend who purchased during the peak time in 96 and 97 got hit by bank revaluation. One of my friends bought a property for 1.2M, the bank revaluated his property twice and asked him to return almost 300K over 2 years. That was really sacry. He was busy going round seeking fund to top up.

Lesson learned. Dont over stretch yourself. I personally still stay at HDB but my quality of life is much better than a lot of my friend who stays at Condo. Live within your mean.

[teddybear]

Don't understand your comments:
"They warned that if the economy pick up, interest rate will go up. If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down."

Based on such statements, "if economy pick up, interest rate will go up" -> should not buy property.
"If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down" -> lagi should not buy property.
Question: So when is best time to buy?
Looks like it is still best to buy when economy picks up despite the rate going up (rather than after you buy and price still keep coming down & you have to top up?), which is now?

I agreed with what you said and would suggest that you wait till second half of the year when the Parc Condo is ready TOP. With another 600 units in the market, buyer definately have more choice.

In my opinion, paying 900 PSF per month is really risky. Anyway, end of last year, MAS warn investor about property purchase. They warned that if the economy pick up, interest rate will go up. If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down. This is as good as saying "Be careful".

I still remember back in 98 where a lot of my friend who purchased during the peak time in 96 and 97 got hit by bank revaluation. One of my friends bought a property for 1.2M, the bank revaluated his property twice and asked him to return almost 300K over 2 years. That was really sacry. He was busy going round seeking fund to top up.

Lesson learned. Dont over stretch yourself. I personally still stay at HDB but my quality of life is much better than a lot of my friend who stays at Condo. Live within your mean.

[cloudwinds]

The best time to buy is 'when you are able to afford". If tomorrow The Parc drops to 500 PSF but cannot afford also no use. What i was trying to say, live within your mean and dont over strech yourself financially.

Anyway, i am also looking for units around this area. i told the agent, if there is desperate seller, they can call me anytime but I am not paying $900 to $1000 PSF for this area. If I miss the boat...then just in my HDB and continue to invest in my stock market lor.

CW

Don't understand your comments:
"They warned that if the economy pick up, interest rate will go up. If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down."

Based on such statements, "if economy pick up, interest rate will go up" -> should not buy property.
"If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down" -> lagi should not buy property.
Question: So when is best time to buy?
Looks like it is still best to buy when economy picks up despite the rate going up (rather than after you buy and price still keep coming down & you have to top up?), which is now?

[Lucas]

The best time to buy is 'when you are able to afford". If tomorrow The Parc drops to 500 PSF but cannot afford also no use. What i was trying to say, live within your mean and dont over strech yourself financially.

Anyway, i am also looking for units around this area. i told the agent, if there is desperate seller, they can call me anytime but I am not paying $900 to $1000 PSF for this area. If I miss the boat...then just in my HDB and continue to invest in my stock market lor.

CW

If not even 900-1000 sq ft for the Parc , how much would you buy if yr agent call you? I think if you are already comfortable staying in hdb then why want to look at condo. Many HDB dwellers said that where they live have good view, amenities , transportation etc and already feel that they are staying in condo:-) if you miss it probably you will still miss it the next downturn.

[cloudwinds]

I perosnally think that 800 is a fair price for the parc. I know a lot of Parc owners will jump at me for saying that. The only reason that i want to consider condo now is because of my kids. I can buy a condo and rent out my hdb and use the rental to pay for the development.

No doubt I miss the boat the last round but I never regret because I invested the money on Stock and that was during STI was 1400-1600 points and the return was much better. And you are right, I will also miss the boat next round as I will invest my money whenever gives me a better return.

It is good to stay in condo and I envy people who stays in it. Poor people like me will have to stay in HDB. No choice leh, i didnt study hard when I was young and dont have good pay job now loh. what can I do.

If not even 900-1000 sq ft for the Parc , how much would you buy if yr agent call you? I think if you are already comfortable staying in hdb then why want to look at condo. Many HDB dwellers said that where they live have good view, amenities , transportation etc and already feel that they are staying in condo:-) if you miss it probably you will still miss it the next downturn.

[teddybear]

You are saying your return is much better vs return from property? Mmm... May be you missed something. As I have shown before, if you can invest in property as good as your skill in stocks, property definitely beats stocks hands down. No joke. That is why you see many tycoons are billionaires (especially in Asia) because they invest most of their money in properties (not stocks). Quote: Ng Teng Fong, Quek Leng Beng, Quek Leng Chan, Simon Cheong, .... Even Wee Cho Yaw also stick a hand and leg in properties (even though he is more well known in owning UOB - if property no good, why he bother?).

I perosnally think that 800 is a fair price for the parc. I know a lot of Parc owners will jump at me for saying that. The only reason that i want to consider condo now is because of my kids. I can buy a condo and rent out my hdb and use the rental to pay for the development.

No doubt I miss the boat the last round but I never regret because I invested the money on Stock and that was during STI was 1400-1600 points and the return was much better. And you are right, I will also miss the boat next round as I will invest my money whenever gives me a better return.

It is good to stay in condo and I envy people who stays in it. Poor people like me will have to stay in HDB. No choice leh, i didnt study hard when I was young and dont have good pay job now loh. what can I do.

[stalingrad]

I perosnally think that 800 is a fair price for the parc. I know a lot of Parc owners will jump at me for saying that. The only reason that i want to consider condo now is because of my kids. I can buy a condo and rent out my hdb and use the rental to pay for the development.

No doubt I miss the boat the last round but I never regret because I invested the money on Stock and that was during STI was 1400-1600 points and the return was much better. And you are right, I will also miss the boat next round as I will invest my money whenever gives me a better return.

It is good to stay in condo and I envy people who stays in it. Poor people like me will have to stay in HDB. No choice leh, i didnt study hard when I was young and dont have good pay job now loh. what can I do.

I passed by the parc almost everyday, and honestly I initially had trouble identifying the parc condo. it doesn't look very different from the surrounding HDB estates.

Someone keeps saying I like to saying bad things about many condos. But I am just sharing my honest opinions. If I tell lies, anyone can tell because I would be saying silly things that are obviously untrue. in this case, am I lying when I say that one cannot tell which blocks are the parc and which are HDB? the pac looks undistinguable from the adjacent HDB blocks. that is a fact.

[jonleelk]

I passed by the parc almost everyday, and honestly I initially had trouble identifying the parc condo. it doesn't look very different from the surrounding HDB estates.

Someone keeps saying I like to saying bad things about many condos. But I am just sharing my honest opinions. If I tell lies, anyone can tell because I would be saying silly things that are obviously untrue. in this case, am I lying when I say that one cannot tell which blocks are the parc and which are HDB? the pac looks undistinguable from the adjacent HDB blocks. that is a fact.

for once...I agree with bro stalingrad. My wife also just commented yesterday when we were driving along AYE that the Parc looks like the HDB around it.

However bro stalingrad...is <$1k psf Rivergate coming soon? *joking only*

[cloudwinds]

Yes. I definately miss something as i never invest in property like the rich man. I am trying to learn now. What I learn from investing is buy low sell high. To me, i think that the price is high now and that why I am holding back.

All the rich man below also apply the same theory buy low and sell high else they wont be rich man today. Unfortunately, lot of people like me tend to buy high sell low.

Nice to spend the afternoon eating snake talking about all these. lol.

Regards

CW

You are saying your return is much better vs return from property? Mmm... May be you missed something. As I have shown before, if you can invest in property as good as your skill in stocks, property definitely beats stocks hands down. No joke. That is why you see many tycoons are billionaires (especially in Asia) because they invest most of their money in properties (not stocks). Quote: Ng Teng Fong, Quek Leng Beng, Quek Leng Chan, Simon Cheong, .... Even Wee Cho Yaw also stick a hand and leg in properties (even though he is more well known in owning UOB - if property no good, why he bother?).

[stalingrad]

for once...I agree with bro stalingrad. My wife also just commented yesterday when we were driving along AYE that the Parc looks like the HDB around it.

However bro stalingrad...is <$1k psf Rivergate coming soon? *joking only*

haha, good to know people actually agree with me about the parc. I dislike the parc condo for many reasons, one of which is the looks, and another is the way the developer CES marketed the condo. It is all mirror and smoke, and many morons actually fell for it. 90% of the initial buyers were company associates and employees. poor people, did they have a choice? and the company had the gall of telling the press that most of the buyers are typical, young singpapore families.

[teddybear]

If Rivergate fell <$1k psf, what will happen to those in D5? <$500 psf? (Don't scare me!)

for once...I agree with bro stalingrad. My wife also just commented yesterday when we were driving along AYE that the Parc looks like the HDB around it.

However bro stalingrad...is <$1k psf Rivergate coming soon? *joking only*

[stalingrad]

If Rivergate fell <$1k psf, what will happen to those in D5? <$500 psf? (Don't scare me!)

People, you are wrong. remember the beginning of 2009, when the prices of condos in D9, 10 and 11 were in free fall, those of condos in D5 were standing firm, not budging at all.

And have you toured the recently renovated IMM, west coast plaza and jurong point? these once "low rent" shopping malls are now crammed with the most high-end retailers and eateries, from Din tai fun to John little.

The center of gravity has moved. while the west is still not as high rent as the central part of Singapore, the gap is narrowing and has almost disappeared. We haven't shopped on orchard roads for almost two years, given that we have in our midst shops and restaurants that once were exclusively associated with orchard road and suntec.

And have you read the fine print and between the lines? the government is diversifying singapore by putting more resournces in the west, the result of which is that condo prices will keep rising in the west and declining in the central part until they equalize.

when that happens, I will definitely see prices of rivergate not much higher or even lower than those in the west.

[teddybear]

Are you talking about residential property prices? As far as we can see now, D5 still not catching up with D9, 10, & 11 (actually, still too far away). Not sure whether it will ever catch up though. Still, good to hope (but I won't bet on that).

People, you are wrong. remember the beginning of 2009, when the prices of condos in D9, 10 and 11 were in free fall, those of condos in D5 were standing firm, not budging at all.

And have you toured the recently renovated IMM, west coast plaza and jurong point? these once "low rent" shopping malls are now crammed with the most high-end retailers and eateries, from Din tai fun to John little.

The center of gravity has moved. while the west is still not as high rent as the central part of Singapore, the gap is narrowing and has almost disappeared. We haven't shopped on orchard roads for almost two years, given that we have in our midst shops and restaurants that once were exclusively associated with orchard road and suntec.

And have you read the fine print and between the lines? the government is diversifying singapore by putting more resournces in the west, the result of which is that condo prices will keep rising in the west and declining in the central part until they equalize.

when that happens, I will definitely see prices of rivergate not much higher or even lower than those in the west.

[proud owner]

Are you talking about residential property prices? As far as we can see now, D5 still not catching up with D9, 10, & 11 (actually, still too far away). Not sure whether it will ever catch up though. Still, good to hope (but I won't bet on that).

D5 prices may not be as high as 9 10 11 .. or 15 ... but when it comes to rental returns .. i can say for a fact .. its higher than 15 .. and some in 11 ...

[jlrx]

Don't understand your comments:
"They warned that if the economy pick up, interest rate will go up. If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down."

Based on such statements, "if economy pick up, interest rate will go up" -> should not buy property.
"If the economy is not doing well, property price will go down" -> lagi should not buy property.
Question: So when is best time to buy?
Looks like it is still best to buy when economy picks up despite the rate going up (rather than after you buy and price still keep coming down & you have to top up?), which is now?

Many people have a misplaced concern for the rise in interest rates.

I say, don't worry.

During the early 1970's, around the period of the first oil crisis, mortgage rates here in Singapore exceeded 12% per annum.

But that was also the same period when landed houses and Orchard Road condos began their legendary (or notorious, depending on which side you are on) ascension from sub-$100k to super-$million price tag.

[teddybear]

D15? An over-valued place? Seems to be. D11? I thought those at Newton and Novena (especially those near MRT stations and near shopping malls) have quite good rental yields? Actually hor, some in D09 & D10 like St Regis has quite lousy rental yield (but then, people who buy these have lots of money and don't care about yield).

D5 prices may not be as high as 9 10 11 .. or 15 ... but when it comes to rental returns .. i can say for a fact .. its higher than 15 .. and some in 11 ...

[Avatar]

I passed by the parc almost everyday, and honestly I initially had trouble identifying the parc condo. it doesn't look very different from the surrounding HDB estates.

Someone keeps saying I like to saying bad things about many condos. But I am just sharing my honest opinions. If I tell lies, anyone can tell because I would be saying silly things that are obviously untrue. in this case, am I lying when I say that one cannot tell which blocks are the parc and which are HDB? the pac looks undistinguable from the adjacent HDB blocks. that is a fact.

I happen to travel along AYE a few weeks ago with my colleagues in my car and he commented what are these HDB blocks doing in a private estate...I took a look and told him these are not HDB and it is Carabelle condo....strange enough, nowadays, HDB are getting more and more better in terms of design and sometimes you may mistaken HDB as Condo or Condo as HDB...one thing for sure is...HDB will not built a unit with huge balconies.

In fact I am looking for a ready unit among Botannia, Carabelle, Infiniti...I took a look at units of Carabelle and got a shock that units are having two balconies and large aircon ledge area.. The kitchen area is even smaller than the balcony. Doing a comparison between Carabelle and Infiniti, I think both are along AYE and Infiniti is more attractive than Carabelle in terms of price...but among the three, the best is Botannia which is located far from AYE. I still waiting for an owner in Botannia to offer lower but if not, I will go for Infiniti instead.

[freefly4587]

I agreed with what you said and would suggest that you wait till second half of the year when the Parc Condo is ready TOP. With another 600 units in the market, buyer definately have more choice.

These are some good discussion. Tks for reminding me that we don't have long term fixed rate mortgage here in sg. In US, you can easily get 20-30 yr fixed mortgage. So when you want/need to refinance, you are subject to valuation risk.

If not for our own sake to stay in sg, we would not buy a property at current market. As I am doing infrastructure investment, I have set up a financial model to check price vs. rent. My assumptions:

Rent for west area condo (Botannia, Carebelle, Monterey Park, Infinity etc): 3500/month, growing at 1% annual to age of 10, then delines at 1% as buildings get 10 yrs old and start to lose its competitive edge for rental market.

Life of condo: 40yrs
Resale assumption: in yr 3 at 7.5% depreciation, and in yr 5 at 12.5% depreciation to current psf
Loan borrowing: 80%
Loan spread: 1.7%
Property tax: 10% on rental but 2% for self stay
Discount rate: 10% a.n. on equity cash

I calculated the rent, excluding property tax, mortgage payment, mgmt fees, so that is free cash to owner.

My conclusion:
Current western clementi area condo psf price is at 15-20% above Present Value of owner's free cash flow from owning the project for 40 yrs. 10%-15% above the Present Value of owner to rent the property for 3 or 5 yr and then resale.
-- caution: i am using entry price at 10%-15% below current asking PSF. assuming not much buying at current price and seller softens asking price to get deal done.
Botannia - 870psf
Carabelle - 830psf
Monterey Park - 800psf
Infiniti - 790psf
Blue Horizon - 780psf

So financial wise, the price is at 10%-15% above their intrinsic value implied by current rent levels.

For 2010, Goldman Sach research forecasts that Singapore mass condo property price will remain stable, because of ample demands from HDB upgraders (enough number of 4/5rm HDB owners with enough equity in their property to upgrade to condos) and foreign buying (mainly from Malay/Indonesia, China/HK just marginal).

However, for rental, they forecasted another 10% down from 09 because even though singapore may have 3-5% GDP growth, employment is lagging behind for about a year, and Singapore is limiting number of people coming to sg.

so if rentals are down, then current housing price not sustainabe. even though demand may drive price higher, if those HDB owners eager to upgrade. However, without stable employment, that won't happen on large scale.

More sales will come to market if rental dropped and not enough to cover mortgage and owner is bleeding to own property. (currently $3000 rent not enough to cover mortgage on a $880k loan)

Further downside factors:
1. China is tightening, loan issuance now under tight control. growth from China will be down. Asset bubbles burst in HK, China and affects Singapore.
2. US still in shit, European same. Japan same.
3. Interest rate moving up as the monster of inflation emerge from the grey area

Current price seem already priced in a rose economic recovery. so buying now is mainly downside, not much upside prospects.

[karu]

Hi,

I'm a resident of The Infiniti & I'm looking for a swimming instructor (for my 5 yr old) currently conducting group swimming lesson at the pool. Preference for timing is Sat morning. Appreciate if any fellow resident can share the contact of the instructor. Thanks!

[amidala]

Hi,

I'm a resident of The Infiniti & I'm looking for a swimming instructor (for my 5 yr old) currently conducting group swimming lesson at the pool. Preference for timing is Sat morning. Appreciate if any fellow resident can share the contact of the instructor. Thanks!

Hi
you can try calling 96246013
www.theswimmingroom.com

[kurby]

I have not finished reading the whole thread, but i am curious why the price of Infiniti is lagging behind those of Botannia, and those around it, even though it is freehold?

[stalingrad]

I have not finished reading the whole thread, but i am curious why the price of Infiniti is lagging behind those of Botannia, and those around it, even though it is freehold?

the reason is very simple. Can you figure it out, or do we have to say it out "loud" to you?

[kurby]

the reason is very simple. Can you figure it out, or do we have to say it out "loud" to you?

Since you highlighted loud, then it must be the AYE....

[Reporter]

The Infiniti has a nëw hïgh of $853 psf!


The Infiniti
Address .............................. psf ............ Area ........ Price .......... Contract Date
39D West Coast Park #04-10 .... $853 psf .... 915 sqft .... $780,000 .... 26 Mar 10

[karu]

At this rate, the prices of carabelle & bontania should be pushing $1000psf!!!

[jsh]

At this rate, the prices of carabelle & bontania should be pushing $1000psf!!!

I think Infiniti is just playing catch-up . Prices of Carabelle & Botannia have gone up quite a bit . People are looking at it as value for money as it is a freehold property. Although it will lag behind the other 2 condos , market forces would not allow the gap to be too wide.

[stalingrad]

At this rate, the prices of carabelle & bontania should be pushing $1000psf!!!

\

Carabelle has hit the $1000psf mark already, in March.

51 West Coast Way #08-02
956 Yrs From 27/05/1928
$1045
883
$922k
25 Mar 10

[Property_Owner]

\

Carabelle has hit the $1000psf mark already, in March.

51 West Coast Way #08-02
956 Yrs From 27/05/1928
$1045
883
$922k
25 Mar 10

You should be worry. This is another sign of bubble.