CM6 is still possible

[Rosy]

True... Then all passive income earners are leech leechede leecherest lol

how about banks? Are they the greatest leech?

[mcmlxxvi]

Investors=leech?

How to become a landlord? firstly u need to buy a property. what are the costs and overheads involved? no value add? Imagine nobody rent out their property? where expats going to stay?

What happens when rental drop and landlord need to top up significant amount of $ to the bank? Can I also say landlords are the slaves to the bank when that happen?

Yap... Guess even banks are not the top of the food chain... The gahmen is. No matter how the market turns, banks may cut people and bankers lose job, but with all the CM the gahmen coffers will always be full and topped up...

Time to change the It's a Fine City tourist tshirts to It's a Cool and Measured City

[PN]

Hi Bros Howgozit and August,

Thanks for replying.

I appreciate the time and effort put in by that those who have been involved in the brief debate. I believe the points that I have put forward quite clearly illustrate my personal interpretation of meritocracy and I am sorry if it does not align with yours.

The idealogy of meritocracy has evolved greatly over the years and it may not be viable to depend on just a dictionary for its exact definition and breadth of scope. If you do a quick check on the various dictionaries available online, you will find various meanings offered. The majority define it as what you and bro August have cited. There is however a handful whose definitions are closer to my interpretations.

Nevertheless, as it would be pointless to launch a debate over which dictionaries are legitimate and which are not, I believe we can leave the discussion as it is and just keep our minds open to possibilities from both ends.

Ultimately, what is important for Singapore as a nation is that the system of governance and policy-making is based on a robust and sound platform with principles grounded in a clearly defined set of idealogies and beliefs. I am not dogmatic about meritocracy, it is only a set of idealogies, no more.

Thanks and wishing you all a good day ahead.

I am with Samsara.

When I was a little boy living in the kampung, I used to see those angmo driving sports car pass our kampung towards the direction of their landed house. I ask my mum, why these angmo so rich? The reply I got was "it's like that lah. They are rich but if you study and work hard, when you grow up you can be as rich as them". This reply from her rings in my ear very often throughout my school days and corporate world. Today I have multiple properties locally and overseas. So I'm a strong believer that meritocracy exists in Singapore and our government has been practicing this all these years.

However, with the CM5 I'm feeling that this Meritocracy practice is starting to change from the pressure of the kpkb group. Needing to pay the ABSD for 3rd properties onwards is discriminating against those who has work hard for decades to reach where they are today.

Imaging one day your child come back home & say

"Papa, my teacher says that from today onwards the top 10% students test result in the class will have to start from -10. Because for the last 2 test, we score >90 and some even score 100. That is ridiculous. So starting from the 3rd test paper, everyone start from a base of zero but the top students start from -10. If you score full 100 marks, after minus 10 you get 90 points.

This is to allow those students with poorer results to catch up with you & don't feel they're left behind. This also give them a fairer starting point given that you guys are too good already. Otherwise they will feel inferior and demoralized which is no good for the harmony and team spirit in the class. Understand? Anyway this decision is final and there shall not be any objection. Understand?"

I may have exaggerated with the above example but this is what it seems to me with the latest CM.

[PN]

I am with Samsara.

When I was a little boy living in the kampung, I used to see those angmo driving sports car pass our kampung towards the direction of their landed house. I ask my mum, why these angmo so rich? The reply I got was "it's like that lah. They are rich but if you study and work hard, when you grow up you can be as rich as them". This reply from her rings in my ear very often throughout my school days and corporate world. Today I have multiple properties locally and overseas. So I'm a strong believer that meritocracy exists in Singapore and our government has been practicing this all these years.

However, with the CM5 I'm feeling that this Meritocracy practice is starting to change from the pressure of the kpkb group. Needing to pay the ABSD for 3rd properties onwards is discriminating against those who has work hard for decades to reach where they are today.

Imaging one day your child come back home & say

"Papa, my teacher says that from today onwards the top 10% students test result in the class will have to start from -10. Because for the last 2 test, we score >90 and some even score 100. That is ridiculous. So starting from the 3rd test paper, everyone start from a base of zero but the top students start from -10. If you score full 100 marks, after minus 10 you get 90 points.

This is to allow those students with poorer results to catch up with you & don't feel they're left behind. This also give them a fairer starting point given that you guys are too good already. Otherwise they will feel inferior and demoralized which is no good for the harmony and team spirit in the class. Understand? Anyway this decision is final and there shall not be any objection. Understand?"

I may have exaggerated with the above example but this is what it seems to me with the latest CM.

BTW, I've already been doing donations and paying personal income tax, property tax, income tax for many years.

Don't say I didn't pay enough taxes and don't mix up these taxes with the ABSD.

[avo7007]

Today I have multiple properties locally and overseas. So I'm a strong believer that meritocracy exists in Singapore and our government has been practicing this all these years.

3% ABSD and Singapore's concept of meritocracy collapses? Your current wealth of pte properties is a testament to how Singapore concept of meritocracy has succeeded. Draconian CMs has been implemented and taken away in the past, but it has never stop the enterprising and hard working from a shot at the rich pie.

[teddybear]

Based on similar idea to CM5, to be fair to all, gov should also introduce following:
1) REITs: buy 3rd commercial properties etc must pay 10% ABSD?
2) Cars: A household buy 2nd car must pay 100% additional COE duty? No reason for a household to own 2 cars right?
3) Give birth to 3rd kids pay penalty lah! Cause over-crowding in Singapore!
4) Own 2nd phone must pay 100% additional tax lah! Why need to own 2 phone?
5) Kids study in international school must pay 100% additional tax similar to school fee to govt. Why must study in international school? Same for independent schools? Because they cause living costs and inflation to increase!

What a joke!

I am with Samsara.

When I was a little boy living in the kampung, I used to see those angmo driving sports car pass our kampung towards the direction of their landed house. I ask my mum, why these angmo so rich? The reply I got was "it's like that lah. They are rich but if you study and work hard, when you grow up you can be as rich as them". This reply from her rings in my ear very often throughout my school days and corporate world. Today I have multiple properties locally and overseas. So I'm a strong believer that meritocracy exists in Singapore and our government has been practicing this all these years.

However, with the CM5 I'm feeling that this Meritocracy practice is starting to change from the pressure of the kpkb group. Needing to pay the ABSD for 3rd properties onwards is discriminating against those who has work hard for decades to reach where they are today.

Imaging one day your child come back home & say

"Papa, my teacher says that from today onwards the top 10% students test result in the class will have to start from -10. Because for the last 2 test, we score >90 and some even score 100. That is ridiculous. So starting from the 3rd test paper, everyone start from a base of zero but the top students start from -10. If you score full 100 marks, after minus 10 you get 90 points.

This is to allow those students with poorer results to catch up with you & don't feel they're left behind. This also give them a fairer starting point given that you guys are too good already. Otherwise they will feel inferior and demoralized which is no good for the harmony and team spirit in the class. Understand? Anyway this decision is final and there shall not be any objection. Understand?"

I may have exaggerated with the above example but this is what it seems to me with the latest CM.

[PN]

3% ABSD and Singapore's concept of meritocracy collapses? Your current wealth of pte properties is a testament to how Singapore concept of meritocracy has succeeded. Draconian CMs has been implemented and taken away in the past, but it has never stop the enterprising and hard working from a shot at the rich pie.

Please read carefully. I did not say collapse.

I am saying there is a change in the practice of meritocracy.

[avo7007]

I may have exaggerated with the above example but this is what it seems to me with the latest CM.

Exaggerated much? Your "story" epitomize the total collapse of meritocracy. What else can be infer from your "exaggerated" story?

[Rosy]

I feel that cm5 had change the rules of the game for property investment too drastically.

Private property is no longer 'private'

Looking back from cm1 to 5, there r more measures and changes applied to pte property than hdb flats

It just does not sound logical to me.

More should be applied to hdb rather than pte property. Hdb resale prices had gone up too much within such a short time frame since 2007

[peterng8]

Nobody is sure that CM5 will be the last...IF (I say if only if) the price continues to climb,..nobody can say when the CM6 will be coming...

[PN]

Exaggerated much? Your "story" epitomize the total collapse of meritocracy. What else can be infer from your "exaggerated" story?

Aiyo. It's just an analogy to the CM5 lah.

I two times already. My head very painful now.

[amk]

I am saying there is a change in the practice of meritocracy.

Yes that is what I felt too.
And it seems inevitable by looking at the recent speeches by the various ministers. It's clear the conclusion had been made.
When you see the opposition accusing PAP with "economic growth at the expense of the people", and dangling Bhutan as example of happiness, and are actually getting wide spread supports from it, PAP probably concluded the society now wants "all inclusive" growth. What follows is an easy guess.

[Rosy]

Yes that is what I felt too.
And it seems inevitable by looking at the recent speeches by the various ministers. It's clear the conclusion had been made.
When you see the opposition accusing PAP with "economic growth at the expense of the people", and dangling Bhutan as example of happiness, and are actually getting wide spread supports from it, PAP probably concluded the society now wants "all inclusive" growth. What follows is an easy guess.

Whether PAP will gain more votes or even lose more votes remains to be seen in 2016

[gn108]

Interesting perspective.
I see CM from other angles...but you have your own points.

I am with Samsara.

When I was a little boy living in the kampung, I used to see those angmo driving sports car pass our kampung towards the direction of their landed house. I ask my mum, why these angmo so rich? The reply I got was "it's like that lah. They are rich but if you study and work hard, when you grow up you can be as rich as them". This reply from her rings in my ear very often throughout my school days and corporate world. Today I have multiple properties locally and overseas. So I'm a strong believer that meritocracy exists in Singapore and our government has been practicing this all these years.

However, with the CM5 I'm feeling that this Meritocracy practice is starting to change from the pressure of the kpkb group. Needing to pay the ABSD for 3rd properties onwards is discriminating against those who has work hard for decades to reach where they are today.

Imaging one day your child come back home & say

"Papa, my teacher says that from today onwards the top 10% students test result in the class will have to start from -10. Because for the last 2 test, we score >90 and some even score 100. That is ridiculous. So starting from the 3rd test paper, everyone start from a base of zero but the top students start from -10. If you score full 100 marks, after minus 10 you get 90 points.

This is to allow those students with poorer results to catch up with you & don't feel they're left behind. This also give them a fairer starting point given that you guys are too good already. Otherwise they will feel inferior and demoralized which is no good for the harmony and team spirit in the class. Understand? Anyway this decision is final and there shall not be any objection. Understand?"

I may have exaggerated with the above example but this is what it seems to me with the latest CM.

[august]

I feel that cm5 had change the rules of the game for property investment too drastically.

Private property is no longer 'private'

Looking back from cm1 to 5, there r more measures and changes applied to pte property than hdb flats

It just does not sound logical to me.

More should be applied to hdb rather than pte property. Hdb resale prices had gone up too much within such a short time frame since 2007

Yes, i have been saying all along they should have considered more measures to HDB right from the start instead of private pty market. Perhaps they are not doing so is bcos they are wary of a backlash at the ballot boxes. As MBT once said "everything has got to do with politics".

but a private ppty investor can also take advantage of this knowing that private will always command a premium over HDB and hence private prices are supported as long as HDB prices remain stable.

however with massive HDB supply coming in the next few yrs, things can get interesting....

[peterng8]

to the elite who are top earners for eg earning milions a year(alot of news recently at major newpaper in Sg) is 3% ABSD a major impediment to them if they want to buy 3rd or more property in general? so to these group of elite,is meritocracy still works or are they in different league?

[avo7007]

Even if meritocracy is gone overnight, it will have little effects on wealth accumulation for the enterprising. Just ask the the "disenfranchise" Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia. Or ask any PRC how their government lack of meritocracy has curtail their desire and ability to get rich........Where there is a will there is a way.

[august]

Yes that is what I felt too.
And it seems inevitable by looking at the recent speeches by the various ministers. It's clear the conclusion had been made.
When you see the opposition accusing PAP with "economic growth at the expense of the people", and dangling Bhutan as example of happiness, and are actually getting wide spread supports from it, PAP probably concluded the society now wants "all inclusive" growth. What follows is an easy guess.

may i say that what u are feeling is not a meritocracy issue, rather it is an outcome due to a slight possible economic rebalancing.

u see, beginning with PM GCT, there was a gradual shift in PAP govt's economic policy and ideology towards the right. By the time LHL became PM the govt has embraced full blown what is come to be known as trickle-down economics. LHL brought up this term in one of the budget speeches of the mid 2000s so it is not some heresay. coupled with LHL's personal ambition to make spore a financial hub, this means the tax regime are designed to favour the rich e.g. abolishment of estate duty in 2008, one of the lowest corporate tax rate in the world (with shortfall made up by raising the GST, twice.)

after GE2011, there are some early signs that PAP govt may have understood that the thrust to grow GDP at all cost is not sustainable and needs to be moderated. But does this signal a fundamental shift in policy paradigm and thinking? of cos not, so u folks should breathe easy lah. Spore is still the place for capitalists.

[peterng8]

Even if meritocracy is gone overnight, it will have little effects on wealth accumulation for the enterprising. Just ask the the "disenfranchise" Chinese in Malaysia and Indonesia. Or ask any PRC how their government lack of meritocracy has curtail their desire and ability to get rich........Where there is a will there is a way.

Furthermore, maybe those elite with multimillion income/year, even the market soften or worse if it crash, will they be the ones who will be badly affected if they have multiple properties? what are the odds as compared to normal singkies?

[blackjack21trader]

Furthermore, maybe those elite with multimillion income/year, even the market soften or worse if it crash, will they be the ones who will be badly affected if they have multiple properties? what are the odds as compared to normal singkies?

the more elite, the more painful it will be when the market crash. for example,

before 2008, net worth: 200 million
after 2008, net worth: 20 million

still rich, but that can set the stage for many sleepless nights to come regretting not taking any action before the plunge.

[blackjack21trader]

the more elite, the more painful it will be when the market crash. for example,

before 2008, net worth: 200 million
after 2008, net worth: 20 million

still rich, but that can set the stage for many sleepless nights to come regretting not taking any action before the plunge.

u think i tok cork sing song right?

take this example:

before 2008, share qty 1,000,000. share price US$20. net worth: US$20 million
after 2008, share price US$2, net worth: US$2 million

Now you see the light liao bo ?

Still rich of cause.....but many nights will be spent asking "WHY?"

you are supposed to be able to afford 20 houses. Now become 1 house. Get it ? See the scale and depth of the philosophy behind this example ?

WOAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

[blackjack21trader]

u think i tok cork sing song right?

take this example:

before 2008, share qty 1,000,000. share price US$20. net worth: US$20 million
after 2008, share price US$2, net worth: US$2 million

Now you see the light liao bo ?

Still rich of cause.....but many nights will be spent asking "WHY?"

you are supposed to be able to afford 20 houses. Now become 1 house. Get it ? See the scale and depth of the philosophy behind this example ?

WOAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH

the best mental torture comes when you decide whether to dispose the share which had dropped from US$20 to US$2 to realise the losses. You can chose not to dispose and wait, but your stomach cannot wait liao la.

WOAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[blackjack21trader]

the best mental torture comes when you decide whether to dispose the share which had dropped from US$20 to US$2 to realise the losses. You can chose not to dispose and wait, but your stomach cannot wait liao la.

WOAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

then come the next torture after disposing the shares:

the share dropped from US$20 to US$15 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$15 to US$8 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$8 to US$2- now then you are forced to take action ?

WOAHAHAHAHAAHAH

[blackjack21trader]

then come the next torture after disposing the shares:

the share dropped from US$20 to US$15 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$15 to US$8 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$8 to US$2- now then you are forced to take action ?

WOAHAHAHAHAAHAH

of which, 1 year of full consolation as you congratulated yourself because the share dropped from US$2 to US$1. Heng Arh... you said.

then, from US$1 it rocketed to US$10...you did not take any action

it rocketed from US$10 to US$20..you tell yourself it will drop

Then, 3 years later, it is trading now at US$40 !!!!


WAHLAUEH.... now you realise this is GOING TO BE A LIFELONG MENTAL REGRET AND TORTURE !!!!!

[samsara]

This is how they scoop money from the markets. They short and make money on the way down, afterwhich they will go long and make money on the way up.

Where does the money come from? It is donated by the charitable masses. Most people will not be able to stomach the roller coaster ride. The key to survival in the stock market is to have a strong stomach and a gentle disposition (little emotion).

then come the next torture after disposing the shares:

the share dropped from US$20 to US$15 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$15 to US$8 - why did not you take any action?

it dropped from US$8 to US$2- now then you are forced to take action ?

WOAHAHAHAHAAHAH

[howgozit]

And may I add.... pockets deep enough to weather the ride

This is how they scoop money from the markets. They short and make money on the way down, afterwhich they will go long and make money on the way up.

Where does the money come from? It is donated by the charitable masses. Most people will not be able to stomach the roller coaster ride. The key to survival in the stock market is to have a strong stomach and a gentle disposition (little emotion).

[howgozit]

Actually "ponding" is a legitimate meteorological term to describe the situation.

A flood can result in "ponding" which simply means the pooling of water. Depending on the extent, ponding can be more severe than flooding. That is because the term "ponding" suggests that there is no way for the water to flow out.

However due to strong anti-government sentiments(probably justifiable), the term is viewed as a way to alleviate the severity of the flood situation.

I remember many years ago on radio Joe Augustine made fun of the traffice police who was on Class95 to report "ponding" in several areas in Singapore because of the rain. Because Joe was not acquainted with the term "ponding", he made fun of the poor traffic cop thinking it was a made-up word.

PUB also has its own interpretation of flooding too, it is called 'ponding'. LOL
But i believe any intelligent and clear thinking person can tell the difference between truth and spin.

we are here to share our diverse views, sometimes a tat robust for other's liking. I too am guilty of this at times. But saying sorry when none is warranted or called for does cheapen the word sometimes.

[wilander]

Actually "ponding" is a legitimate meteorological term to describe the situation.

A flood can result in "ponding" which simply means the pooling of water. Depending on the extent, ponding can be more severe than flooding. That is because the term "ponding" suggests that there is no way for the water to flow out.

However due to strong anti-government sentiments(probably justifiable), the term is viewed as a way to alleviate the severity of the flood situation.

I remember many years ago on radio Joe Augustine made fun of the traffice police who was on Class95 to report "ponding" in several areas in Singapore because of the rain. Because Joe was not acquainted with the term "ponding", he made fun of the poor traffic cop thinking it was a made-up word.

you may be delighted to know that today in parliament the minister has chided PUB for using the term ponding, hehe.
Link here http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_753473.html

[amk]

may i say that what u are feeling is not a meritocracy issue, rather it is an outcome due to a slight possible economic rebalancing.

u see, beginning with PM GCT, there was a gradual shift in PAP govt's economic policy and ideology towards the right. By the time LHL became PM the govt has embraced ...

after GE2011, there are some early signs that PAP govt may have understood that the thrust to grow GDP at all cost is not sustainable and needs to be moderated. But does this signal a fundamental shift in policy paradigm and thinking? of cos not, so u folks should breathe easy lah. Spore is still the place for capitalists.

U know what, let's be positive, and hope what you say here is true.

[peterng8]

the more elite, the more painful it will be when the market crash. for example,

before 2008, net worth: 200 million
after 2008, net worth: 20 million

still rich, but that can set the stage for many sleepless nights to come regretting not taking any action before the plunge.

the purpose to bring this up is not to dwell into the mentality or psychological condition of the elite if they have misstep in their investment.. i believe this is the stress that will be undergone when investment went awry...be it elite or normal people, leman bro collaspe for eg...

the purpose to bring this up is to have some additional points for consideration into the topic of meritocracy as has been debated fercociously in the thread.. such as do the elite thinks meritocracy has not worked for them with the ABSD of 3%? for eg will the elite be easier to ride out the storm as compared to normal singkies as maybe perceived by garmen hence the need to have more CMs to prevent shock? who is running the country elite or ....etc?