Release of Q2 Statistics

[HP65]

i m not putting HP65 down at all, so no need to speak up for him. i agree with you on the charm of sommerville and yong an. but really depends on the condition of the unit. becoz i got the impression that HP65 did not do much renovation in the last 30 years hence, i said 14.7k is not realistic.

Rental for big units has not gone up much in the last 3 months has it?

i am all for big old units/land size (agreeing with proud owner) but from an en-bloc perspective. but for those looking from rental perspective, better have holding power.

i still think BIG NEW units got problem justifying their prices though. low rental yield, yet plot ratio maximised liao.

BH, AMK, thx! No worries, not upset at all. BH, you're right, mine is in almost original condition. I'm actually the 2nd owner and I bought it at very low Px. But I also rent it out very low....it's a long term tenant. It definitely way below $14k per month. Actually, the tenant took very good care of the place and even make my place very homely & cozy.

[august]

Sorry have to speak up for HP65. I have a friend who also has a townhouse in sommerville. It's rented out 14.5k 3 months ago. At the time already considered low. He also had an offer ard 6m I think, and he rejected.

Have u actually been there ? Very big apartment and land size. Very peaceful and convenient. Remind me of Yong An Park. The value of this type of property lies both in its location and its big land size. My friend is very firm not to sell it. He said ppl in SG had not really realized the value of prime land, especially large prime land next to botanic garden.

agree with u ~

for that D5 carrot head to put down D10 is just a joke lol

[kingkong1984]

Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development

isaacycc

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[stalingrad]

http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...?topic=48353.0

read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.

I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.

[stalingrad]

who says the developer have to sell at 2800psf?

if GH's unit sell to developer at 2000psf, it does not mean that the developer are paying 2000psf per plot ratio. Maybe they are only paying 1300psf per plot ratio? which means they can break even if they sell you at 1800psf for the new unit.

so developers just buy land and build new condos to break even? They want at least 30% profit margin to go through the trouble. I bet FEO's profit margin at the tennery is at least 40%.

So if 1800 is the break even price for new condo built on sommerville park land, the price that developers would like to charge is at least 2300-2400psf. who is going to pay such prices for such a lousy location. that is why en bloc will fail unless inflation is so bad that you need to shell out 1000psf for a HDB flat.

[stalingrad]

agree with u ~

for that D5 carrot head to put down D10 is just a joke lol

you ostriches of course agree with each other. You have been agreeing with each other since 2007 that CCR prices are undervalued and will have to catch up.

I wish you will continue to agree with each other and hold on to your CCR properties. better, yet, buy more. I encourage you to. I even defy you to. people like you are worse than dinos.

[Avatar]

http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...?topic=48353.0

read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.

I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.

Wah....free also don't want. I want!! Who wants to give me free?

[HP65]

And to make some OCR supporters feel great, my 1 year old cairnhill 3 bedder was rented out at only $5kish per month after deducting maintenance fee. But like TB said, I'm not even interested to sell it even though I have a capital gain of 50% on the table anytime. This should be music to the ears of OCR supporters coz I believe some had 100% or more capital appreciation in the same time frame.

But does it concern me? Not at all...coz their gain is not my loss. $$ is there for everybody to make. So I dun quite understand why people like to bash CCR or OCR. It's as though if CCR gain, OCR will lose.

And for those who keep trying to calculate yield vs selling px. I suggest you guys save it coz do you think the sellers who are holding such units will care? Most of our purchase px is so low that we will just hold it/ rent it cheap. We can even rent it out at OCR prices if there is a major crisis. So dun bother to calculate yield coz it will never make sense to the buyer.

PS: the offer for my townhouse came from a foreigner. Ever since I sold out my Paterson unit to a PRC, I have regretted it and vow not to make the same mistake again.

[devilplate]

Only a handful here bash ccr or ocr.... Be open to watever r lor....

I seriously dun tink there is any undervalued segment now.

Ccr recovered quite a fair bit from bottom 09 oredi....d1,2 aso ccr rite? Most projects there surpass 07 by 20% or more oredi... Its really illogical to believe tat its undervalued when compared to 07 previous peak....

I can say ccr is overvalued n ocr is undervalued in 07? No?

[DaytonaSS]

Only a handful here bash ccr or ocr.... Be open to watever r lor....

I seriously dun tink there is any undervalued segment now.

Ccr recovered quite a fair bit from bottom 09 oredi....d1,2 aso ccr rite? Most projects there surpass 07 by 20% or more oredi... Its really illogical to believe tat its undervalued when compared to 07 previous peak....

I can say ccr is overvalued n ocr is undervalued in 07? No?

Yup, saying CCR didn't move havnt moved in last 5 year is really sticking their head in the sand. My cousin made near to 1.5m just by buying in 2 CCR older properties in '09 and took 1/2 profit recently. That's 2 years only. Your Clift Also in hot demand. CCR not moving?

Frankly some CCR bashing OCR owners seems to he very proud that their properties appreciated 100% in the last 5 years. It's not like they are property gurus or what. Tons of HDB owners also got few folds returns without having putting any effort.

Many OCR locations are good with fantastic accessibility to admenaties and some destinated business hubs and are great for rental income. Mostly of these are 99 LH as they are just next to transport nodes n shopping complex.

What I cannot stand is some bashers insist their area is the best even when the market Psf price already tell otherwise. Some stabs of marble and larger swimming pool doesnt make it the best place in Singapore. Psf range tells about the general demand in a certain area. If one disagree, then tell me y on 2 coast we have, one cost 1500-2400(penthouse unit) 99 LH and other coast struggling with $1000(FH/999)? Is 1000 Psf area is great environment than 2500psf? The market is always right in my opinion .

As for which one got better appreciation, that is another debate altogether.

[august]

http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...?topic=48353.0

read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.

I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.

hahahaha! typical talk cock king

[Avatar]

What I cannot stand is some bashers insist their area is the best even when the market Psf price already tell otherwise. Some stabs of marble and larger swimming pool doesnt make it the best place in Singapore. Psf range tells about the general demand in a certain area. If one disagree, then tell me y on 2 coast we have, one cost 1500-2400(penthouse unit) 99 LH and other coast struggling with $1000(FH/999)? Is 1000 Psf area is great environment than 2500psf? The market is always right in my opinion .

As for which one got better appreciation, that is another debate altogether.

You will be surprised one of them even go to the extend of bashing other condos in his district to argue that his condo is the best in the district.

[SpinCity]

http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...?topic=48353.0

read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.

I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.

I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.

By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not

[CCR]

http://www.expatsingapore.com/forum/...?topic=48353.0

read some of the comments about rat droppings and cockroaches at sommerville park. filthy is how another renter put it.

I wouldn't live there if I could get it for free. honestly.

Really funny guy... All his comments are to the extreme... He will ot buy d10 even if it's same price as west coast and he will not stay th SP even if its free.... For me i sure stay ah... Then rent outnmy other place..
Anyome offering free stay at SP?

[CCR]

I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.

By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not

Well said....

[stalingrad]

I think you might have worried too much. I doubt that there will be people who would even want to trade their D10 properties with your best-of-Singapore condo, so save the worry for if-one-day-get-it-for-free.

By the way, although copper has almost quadrupled from its low in 08/09 but gold has at best doubled for the same time period, and copper is arguably more useful to human beings than gold, I wonder if you would ever give a copper ring to someone important as a significant token and tell the recipient how useful and profitable copper is to make you choose copper ring over a gold one. Copper may be more profitable than gold, but a the end of the day gold is precious metal and copper is not

yes, rat droppings and cockroaches are gold. then, buy and live in it. not me, I will not live in a dwelling with even one rat dropping.

[stalingrad]

the debate here is getting more and more bizarre. losing the debate on whether D10 properties will outshine D5 or even D23 properties, these d10 owners now invoke the "value in the beauty" argument. go ahead, I wish you use this argument in your investment decisions and lose all the money you inherited from your ancestors. I don't think you made all that money youself, given how irrational you are and how ill grounded your arguments are.

[Wild Falcon]

Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.

In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.

And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.

And to make some OCR supporters feel great, my 1 year old cairnhill 3 bedder was rented out at only $5kish per month after deducting maintenance fee. But like TB said, I'm not even interested to sell it even though I have a capital gain of 50% on the table anytime. This should be music to the ears of OCR supporters coz I believe some had 100% or more capital appreciation in the same time frame.

But does it concern me? Not at all...coz their gain is not my loss. $$ is there for everybody to make. So I dun quite understand why people like to bash CCR or OCR. It's as though if CCR gain, OCR will lose.

And for those who keep trying to calculate yield vs selling px. I suggest you guys save it coz do you think the sellers who are holding such units will care? Most of our purchase px is so low that we will just hold it/ rent it cheap. We can even rent it out at OCR prices if there is a major crisis. So dun bother to calculate yield coz it will never make sense to the buyer.

PS: the offer for my townhouse came from a foreigner. Ever since I sold out my Paterson unit to a PRC, I have regretted it and vow not to make the same mistake again.

[wind30]

Landed properties are the big winners, powering way ahead of non-landed properties. Owners of Terraces and Semi-Ds are asking high high prices propelled by the landed scarcity factor. Looks like we are moving to a situation where the landed segment will be an exclusive playground for the rich and affluent!

yup. All the OCR, CCR, RRR talk, landed is the big winner for the past Q

[SpinCity]

Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.

In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.

And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.

They are investors who don't care much about yield and they are absolutely rational. For example, those who invest in gold

While one is busy clipping coupon from newspaper to save $1 on a loaf of toast, another may thinking how to spend millions to improve the value of his shopping mall at orchard road. Both make sense in terms of value creation but just in different league

They are various investment strategies, some look at yield, some look at capital appreciation, some look at things beyond our fathom. Before making the verdict that the sky is only of the size of a 2m diameter circle, one may want to first make sure that he/she is not sitting at the bottom of a well

[Jadey]

Serious? Lakeside units selling 1400Psf? Don't mind share which development, I wanna check it out.

I comb thru D22 briefly, average 800 Psf n below. Centris touch 1k Psf . quiet scary to think someone dare chong 1400 when average Psf is ard 800psf. 1400psf issit those 350sqft hse? Ard $500k to buy "hotel room" house?

Try doing a search for The Lakefront residences MM size apartment.

[DC33_2008]

It is good to have different strategies in the property market which makes it exciting. Otherwise, it may be detrimental to the market.

[Jadey]

Interesting, you use the "asking price" of 1400psf as the benchmark for the whole Lakeside area, but discount the actual "transacted price" of 2000psf for D'Leedon which is only one development

I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.

[DC33_2008]

I am worried for those subsequent buyers.

I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.

[isaacycc]

I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.

My number 2 post:
This makes it even more interesting:
Why use one transaction of a D22 MM at 1400psf to gauge the average price 1597psf of D'Leedon, then discount the transacted price of 2000+psf of D'Leedon MM?
Anyway, I reckon MM price is only useful when compare within it's own category

[DaytonaSS]

I am using URA transaction price of lakefront residences to highlight that Lakeside area apartment is already selling at $1400psf, I am not saying that the whole Lakeside area is selling at an average price of $1400.

I saw the price, ard 1300+++ for 721 sqft unit. That's pretty scary Psf price. Issit 2 bedroom unit? JDL story is powerful man.

Just curious, i havnt gone to lakeside area for many years already. Have the JDL district development start already? Hope bros invest in JDL story huat huat.

[DaytonaSS]

Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.

In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.

And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.

Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?

Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?

[HP65]

Maybe yield doesn't matter to you, but it matters to an rational investor. Some of you still haven't realised that in a mature market, we will not see the type of capital gains that we have realised in the past. Many of the OCR investments appreciated close to 200% in a few years. I'm 100% certain this will NOT happen in the future again. In a mature market, yields and cash flows becomes increasingly important. Many of you don't analyse but one interesting finding in the Q2 stats is OCR rental increase by 1.5% while CCR only 0.9%. OCR which traditionally gives the best yields is still pulling away from CCR. So while many are paying increasingly higher capital values for the CCR condos, the tenants do not see the value.

In short, at some time, some of us have to realise SG property market is becoming increasingly mature and rental yields will start to play an increasingly important role. Over time, many of us would like to retire and have an asset that gives us a stable cash flows (i.e. rentals or dividends) over a period of time, not the buy-and-sell strategy anymore.

And I'm speaking from a perspective of a rational investor and not a "i don't care because long time ago I buy my property cheap so rent cheap lor" investor. Many of us reshuffle our portfolio all the time - and many of us are not that old to have bought extremely cheap properties 10 years ago. Our strategy would have to be different.

I fully understand where you're coming from. And actually different investor has different risk profile. In fact I can tell you I'm a very risk adverse investor which explains why I mostly buy D9/10 ppty. Recently, I dabble in a D15 ppty, cashing out 25% of my gold holdings and 50% of my shareholdings. This is the 1st time I bought anything outside of D9/10.

But because we buy 'safe' evergreen ppty, we know there's always demand for it. And that means stable and steady cash flow regardless of the economic environment. It's akin to buying Kepcorp or SPH. So I rather lower but stable yield. So it's not that yield doesn't matter. But rather, I dun care the buyer's yield coz I have taken care of my own yield which is an extremely safe yield. To make me give up on that, I must be well compensated coz it's not easy to find a replacement asset.

[HP65]

Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?

Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?

Actually Sg still have a long, long way to go. As such, the ppty mkt is far from mature....in fact, as long as we r relevant in the next 100 yrs to the world, we are still very immature IMO.

[teddybear]

For Singapore to become a mature & self sustainable service based economy, it requires a population of at least 15m! yes many still don't know!
Short term 6.5m, long term 15m!
Otherwise why built so many new MRT stations till 2020, several beside cementaries & empty plot of land? They think Govt build for ghosts to board the MRT is it?

Y do u say Singapore is a matured market? Issit in terms of Psf prices? Or because of limited upside in rental yield?

Yield is a factor of the kind of foreign talent we attract. If according to what MM say, we need more good talents to grow our economy, and we are importing 1m more over a undisclosed term, do u classify it as growth or matured?