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Thread: Another 50 years...

  1. #1
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    Default Another 50 years...

    More flooding this morning haa haa...
    http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singa...040951911.html

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    Yup, Singapore had aged 200 years since!
    BE CENTRED BY ALL AT THE FRINGE OF THE CITY @

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    http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singa...040951911.html

    “How many of you followed the latest tragic events in Japan with the tsunami…and then put into context our floods in Singapore against that kind of disaster.

    “I am not saying we shouldn’t do anything about the flood. But the amount of noise you made with just sporadic flood compared to the Japanese. I saw them on TV. Very stoic looking. You don’t see them crying.

    This has happened, just get on, that’s the kind of spirit you want to have and you call it nation building.”

    SM Goh Chok Tong, Channel Newsasia, 12 March 2011
    ---------------------------------------------------
    THURSDAY'S deluge which submerged parts of Bukit Timah was a 'freak' event that occurs once in 50 years, Minister for the Environment and Water Resources Yaacob Ibrahim said yesterday.

    'What happened was very unusual,' he said. 'The intensity was tremendous.'
    Shortly after 1pm the skies opened and in the next two hours, almost 110mm of rain fell - almost half the average monthly rainfall for November.

    Dr Yaacob said: "I hope the public will have more patience with us because it will take us some time to enlarge those drains. But having said that, it is not possible for us to plan for every event.

    "Yesterday's event, I was told by the PUB, occurs once every 50 years. It could be tomorrow. But we have to plan accordingly. Most importantly, we have to have a proper drainage system... (that is) being continually upgraded, and a proper response system."

    Environment and Water Resources Minister Yaacob Ibrahim, Channel Newsasia, 20 November 2009
    --------------------------------------------------------
    He said: "Whatever we do, when we get extraordinary rainfall - like we had recently - no amount of engineering can prevent flooding.

    Mr Lee added: "Somethings are beyond (that); it's an act of God unless you want to lose half the roads and have canals."

    Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew , Channel Newsasia, 21 July 2010

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    http://www.sgpolitics.net/?p=4237

    Said Mr Lee: “The PAP makes promises they deliver. The Opposition cannot deliver.”

    “If you have a flood, just carefully think who is more likely to get the drainage put right and have the flood alleviated as quickly as possible: A PAP candidate with links to the ministers and Prime Minister, or a non-PAP candidate who has become an MP, like in Potong Pasir or Hougang, and who has to manage on his own?”
    “That’s a fact of life.”

    Source: Today newspaper, “MM Lee explains his tough stance against Opposition, throws a challenge“, 29 April 2006.

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    http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/20...nd-floods.html

    Monday, July 19, 2010



    Marina Barrage and the floods....





    LATER UPDATE: NCMP Slyvia Lim (Worker's Party) asked about the role of the Marina Barrage in the recent floods.

    Ms Lim had asked the minister to clarify what she termed as 'confusing statements' in the media about the role of the barrage in the floods, pointing out that PUB's Chief Executive Officer Khoo Teng Chye had earlier said it was not to be blamed for the June 16 flooding along Orchard Road.

    When opened to great fanfare two years ago, the $226 million Marina Barrage was being touted as the solution to relieve flash floods in low-lying areas around the city.

    Explaining the role of the barrage, Dr Yaacob said it played three main roles, that of a freshwater reservoir, to prevent floods as well as for recreational activities.

    During a rain storm, seven pumps and nine crest gates at the barrage are used interchangeably to release water out to sea depending on the prevailing tidal levels and predictions based on statistical modelling.[Link]

    Dr. Yaacoob basically stuck to the explanation that the 16 June 2010 Orchard Rd flood was caused by 2 bursts of heavy downpour 30 minutes apart- 100mm of rainfall within 2 hours and clogged drains were the causes.

    This explanation is not satisfactory because Orchard Road area had 2 floods after 16 June after PUB said it will monitor drains for debris and rainfall was not as intense.

    The govt will look at look at widening Stamford canal to prevent future floods....this again is already behind the curve because there were many other places that were flooded 2 days ago Upper Thomson, Bukit Timah, Stevens Rd, Orchard Road, Cresent Road, Bedok and Sims Ave[Link]....a lot more has to be down all over Singapore.

    UPDATE : I did a quick check on the Internet and found that the construction of barrages around the world to prevent or control flooding very often leads to increased flooding as an unintended consequence[Check for yourself here].

    The reason is water flow (fluid dynamics) is highly complex and is often not amendable to analysis. One hint that something has gone wrong is areas that don't normally flood starts flooding (think Orchard Road).

    When the big flood in Orchard Road first occurred, the PUB quickly put out a statement that it was caused by debris and would be worse if the Marina Barrage was not there.

    Now that we have 3(?) other floods since then and floods recurring at Orchard Road at much lower rainfall than the earlier one, I think it is time for them to check all the possibilities not just the ones that absolve the govt from blame and conveniently lead to conclusions that nothing needs to be done.




    "The Marina Barrage is the result of Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew’s vision nearly two decades ago when he envisaged damming the mouth of the Marina Channel to create a freshwater reservoir" - PUB Website

    A popular hypothesis has emerged among Singaporeans that the Marina Barage is a possible cause of the floods. I'm not an expert in floods so I cannot say with any certainty if this hypothesis is true.

    Remember a few weeks ago when Orchard Road became flooded, the govt quickly came out with an explanation that it was due to a clogged drain and that PUB will be monitoring the drains closely[Link].

    How then do they account for the floods that came after that one? Orchard Road has been flooded a few times since then. The govt' has lost credibility due the flood issue and they will lose more if they don't come up with a good explanation and long term solution soon.

    Be it climate change, drainage or the Marina Barage, Singaporeans need to know what is going on and that there is a plan and solution in place that will prevent these damaging floods.

    Singaporeans are not so reasonable to expect 100 new drains to be constructed by tomorrow but they have to start working on the solution ASAP....how else can the govt answer to those whose goods, cars and homes have been damaged in recent weeks.

    Why do so many Singaporeans think the Marina Barrage is the culprit?

    The Marina Barrage (Chinese:滨海堤坝) is a dam in Singapore built across the mouth of the bay, between Marina East and Marina South. It was officially opened on 1 November 2008. [Wikipedia]

    Here is an air picture of the barrage:





    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XtsjYwdj2Ic/TEN2Pb2Vr0I/AAAAAAAABKI/05oK4s41jf8/s400/barrage_1.jpg
    Another picture:


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XtsjYwdj2Ic/TEN2_gJj_zI/AAAAAAAABKY/mNP8dBF725k/s400/barrage_2.jpg


    When the Marina Barrage was opened, it was said that it can be used for "flood control". The barrage has steel gates that separate the sea water from the fresh water.

    The barrage can prevent rising sea tide from flooding the island - but the problem is water flow in the other direction from the island to the sea.

    During heavy rainfall, the steel gates are opened to allow the storm water to flow into the sea.

    According to the hypothesis, herein lies the problem, in the past without the barrage, storm water flows freely into the ocean but with the barrage, this flow of water is impeded by the structure causing a back pressure leading to rising water levels on the island.

    Netizens and ordinary Singaporeans do not have the data or expertise to rigorously prove this hypothesis.

    Only the govt and its experts can come up with rigorous explanations. I highlighted this popular hypothesis only to show the need for the govt to step forward and explain what is going on.

    The public generally don't accept "once in 50 years" and "debris in the drain" type of convenient (convenient for the govt to do nothing) explanations which now look rather ridicious given the frequency of these floods.

    Some other flooding incidents associated with building of barrages in other countries:

    In Kuching : http://anilnetto.com/development-issues/floods-in-kuching/
    The Malaysian govt denied it because it was the one that build the barrage.

    An official report by the Dutch Government found the construction of a storm surge barrier across the Oosterschelde estuary in the 1980s actually increased the risk of flooding in the area. [Link].


    Posting Time 5:10 AM

    Posted by Lucky Tan

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    The rain was really intense and prolonged. Comparatively little lightning and thunder too. I don't recall seeing this phenomena so frequently before.

    No amount of engineering can overcome this due to climate change where Singapore will just become hotter and wetter. Unless we make Singapore into a big drain which is not cost effective. Expect more tropical bugs and diseases too.

    This is only June. Wait till the other wetter monsoon arrives. Better to avoid low-lying properties because the problem will only get worse.

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    Visiting the revamped area on Sunday, Prime Minister Lee reminded Singaporeans to be responsible for the facilities even as they enjoy them.

    He said: "We all have parts to play to keep public places and our waterways clean. We must prevent ...the litter from choking up our drains, otherwise the litter will find its way into the drains, into the canals, into the reservoirs and pollute our water supply."

    Turning to the recent floods, Mr Lee said Singapore must learn from the episodes and upgrade its infrastructure and systems.

    He said: "We will continue to implement new drainage works, improve the design of the drainage systems and to deal with more intense storms. But I don't think it's possible in Singapore to expect the place to be completely free of floods.

    Because if you're going to do that, you'll have to have huge tracts of land put aside for huge monsoon drains which will be empty most of the time, the land is tied up, the infrastructure will cost a lot of money."

    Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong, Channel Newsasia, 27 June 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyenergix
    The rain was really intense and prolonged. Comparatively little lightning and thunder too. I don't recall seeing this phenomena so frequently before.

    No amount of engineering can overcome this due to climate change where Singapore will just become hotter and wetter. Unless we make Singapore into a big drain which is not cost effective. Expect more tropical bugs and diseases too.

    This is only June. Wait till the other wetter monsoon arrives. Better to avoid low-lying properties because the problem will only get worse.
    My Geography not so good but people on Internet arguing that cannot push everything to Global Warming and Nature because effects of Global Warming are worse than the floods we saw in Singapore and floods is not the only only product of Global Warming and Nature.

    Nature should not be use as excuse for floods as Nature provide rain , not floods. Floods is still within human control.

    People compare why all these floods coincidentally started after completion of Marina Barrage. Last time such flooding of buildings are unheard of.

    If PAP can spend 1 billion on Bishan River, I am sure they can spend some on drains too.

    Some drain networks as old as 1970s.

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    The rain really so intense ar?

    Flash floods becoming a vy serious threat....

    Too many underground construction causing it too? So many new buildings being constructed clogging the drains? Oh no, more underground mrt lines gona start plus nse.....

    Dun wish to see anymore death occurs due to flash floods leh

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    They better hurry to start the DEF Project real soon.
    Or do they want to wait for KBW?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wenqing
    My Geography not so good but people on Internet arguing that cannot push everything to Global Warming and Nature because effects of Global Warming are worse than the floods we saw in Singapore and floods is not the only only product of Global Warming and Nature.

    Nature should not be use as excuse for floods as Nature provide rain , not floods. Floods is still within human control.

    People compare why all these floods coincidentally started after completion of Marina Barrage. Last time such flooding of buildings are unheard of.

    If PAP can spend 1 billion on Bishan River, I am sure they can spend some on drains too.

    Some drain networks as old as 1970s.
    About 15 years ago we experienced the El Nino effect. The period which lasted for several years was extermely hot and dry. Then we shifted to neutral pattern. In recent years, we are experiencing the swing to La Nina effect, which dumps heavy rainfall. The extreme weather patterns are made worse by climate change.

    http://app.nccs.gov.sg/news_details....=114&pageid=98

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    When they gave the once in 50 years excuse, people already buay song because this type of rain happens quite often. I have seen heavier rain in the past, and yet there is no flood. Just last week rain, flooding in Novena and a poor boy died. Few days later, another heavy rain and flooding everywhere again. This type of rain happens weekly during monsoon season. How come something that happens so frequently is not provided for? Also, VB blame is on "nature"? HELLO? This is not tsunami ok? This is just normal rain and blame nature for raining? If no rain, drought how? Blaming rain is a joke!

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    Pls stop blaming nature. Yesterday's rain was NOT unusual. in fact, it is not anywhere close to the heaviest rainfall in Singapore in the past years. PAP use some cooked up statistics like "highest rainfall in mth of June in 15 minutes" - these statistics with strange criterion (why 15 min huh? and why only compare to June?) are cooked to make u believe its something very unusual when it is NOT.

    Since when is such rain "unnatural"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyenergix
    About 15 years ago we experienced the El Nino effect. The period which lasted for several years was extermely hot and dry. Then we shifted to neutral pattern. In recent years, we are experiencing the swing to La Nina effect, which dumps heavy rainfall. The extreme weather patterns are made worse by climate change.

    http://app.nccs.gov.sg/news_details....=114&pageid=98

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    They are bullshitting. Why only heavy rain in Singapore, not Malaysia? Batam? And why the rain only like Orchard? Because district 9 is it? Didn't know rain also choose district nowadays.

    I don't see east coast getting as bad. I don't see parkway parade waterfall, like tanglin mall waterfall. Just think of the changes made to Orchard in the last 10 years and we will know. For example, Ion used to be a big field, able to absorb water. Now, water cannot seep through the building but the water has to go somewhere. The drains obviously are not sufficient to handle the water and cause massive floods. Blame the rain? Or blame human?

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    Can claim that the damming of the Marina Barrage was an engineering feat, and now say no amount of engineering can be done about the flood! What crap! 5 more years to repent!
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    We started to see such flooding since the completion of the Marina Barrage. I wonder?

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    Nowadays, June is the time for Orchard road flood, coincide with the the Great Singapore Sale. Very strange, last time, heavy rain, i don't remember any Orchard road shopping mall getting flooded, now...if in June heavy rain, shopping malls take turn to get flooded...Last year...Lucky Plaza stretch, tis year Tanglin Mall, wonder what's next...

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    BE CENTRED BY ALL AT THE FRINGE OF THE CITY @

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    The Sinking of Singapore...

    Your next home must have multi storey carparks instead of basement carparks. Only projects on higher ground can be considered.

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    Tessarina Condos owners need to drive cars out of the basement carpark each time it rains.

    Heavy rain causes flash floods in Singapore (05 Jun 2011)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmfitUVcE4s

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    Out of curiousity, if i work in Orchard road and resides in Bukit Timah, will i get loading for my car insurnace premium?

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    Only Tessarina, St Regis and Cascadia flooded lah. There so so many condos with basement carparks and they are ok. A lot of times, its the design and engineering flaw of the development. Developer cut corners in planning the drainage during construction. Sometimes when I walk around my development, I notice a lot of thoughts went into the design of the draingage, e.g. slight slope to ensure the water always flow into the drain etc. These may not be easily observed because the design is so subtle but u could see it is well thought out to ensure a flood will not happen.

    Bukit Timah, Holland, Farrer, Orchard, Cuscaden all on low ground leh. It appears low-ground property has higher property value?

    Quote Originally Posted by azeoprop
    The Sinking of Singapore...

    Your next home must have multi storey carparks instead of basement carparks. Only projects on higher ground can be considered.

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    I think should start compiling developers of the flood-prone properties:-

    Tessarina - Wing Tai
    St Regis Residences - City Developments
    Cascadia - Allgreen
    Tanglin Mall - Allgreen

    A responsible developer will ensure drainage is properly planned and engineered in the development - such attention to details matters. There are other developments near Tessarina, e.g. Nexus and Sterling (FEO?) and they did not flood. It's easy to ignore drainage, since no developer can sell a property at higher price becos of good drainage, so some may cut corners ans voila! u have a flood prone property.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Falcon
    Only Tessarina, St Regis and Cascadia flooded lah. There so so many condos with basement carparks and they are ok. A lot of times, its the design and engineering flaw of the development. Developer cut corners in planning the drainage during construction. Sometimes when I walk around my development, I notice a lot of thoughts went into the design of the draingage, e.g. slight slope to ensure the water always flow into the drain etc. These may not be easily observed because the design is so subtle but u could see it is well thought out to ensure a flood will not happen.

    Bukit Timah, Holland, Farrer, Orchard, Cuscaden all on low ground leh. It appears low-ground property has higher property value?
    ahahha

    i think holland is higher gorund than farrer....
    Leedon is lower than holland road ...
    cuscaden is lower than Rochalie

    sometimes i want to be near MRT stn ... but many times i prefer to be on high ground .. which will be a distance from MRT if any

    so choose wisely

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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    ahahha

    i think holland is higher gorund than farrer....
    Leedon is lower than holland road ...
    cuscaden is lower than Rochalie

    sometimes i want to be near MRT stn ... but many times i prefer to be on high ground .. which will be a distance from MRT if any

    so choose wisely
    8woodleigh high grnd n mrt...lol but 99lh

    Peak balmeg lor, fh, high n mrt....sky high px too...haha

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    Avon Park at Youngberg terrace. FH ultra high ground and MRT beside. Buy Buy Buy!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyenergix
    About 15 years ago we experienced the El Nino effect. The period which lasted for several years was extermely hot and dry. Then we shifted to neutral pattern. In recent years, we are experiencing the swing to La Nina effect, which dumps heavy rainfall. The extreme weather patterns are made worse by climate change.

    http://app.nccs.gov.sg/news_details....=114&pageid=98
    I see.

    So only flooded areas like Potong Pasir, Orchard, Bukit Timah etc and flooded buildings like Tanglin Mall, Forum, Liat Towers etc have La Nina effect.

    Those Singapore areas and buildings not flooded dont have La Nina effect.

    La Nina very selective and choosy about where to dump rain I guess.

    Dont know next time which area and which building will La Nina target ??

    HDB maybe ??

    Like that, Government not at fault.

    All La Nina's , God's and Nature's fault.


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    I am out of town at the moment. Heard about the flooding on Sunday? I saw in the news that Wan Tho avenue was flooded. Was Nin area flooded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by proud owner
    ahahha

    i think holland is higher gorund than farrer....
    Leedon is lower than holland road ...
    cuscaden is lower than Rochalie

    sometimes i want to be near MRT stn ... but many times i prefer to be on high ground .. which will be a distance from MRT if any

    so choose wisely
    I think Youtube got show Holland areas flooded too.

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