Property market sentiments 2011

[proud owner]

Sorry for butting back in on the MM discussion.

Hello I AM the wife. I have a full-time job. Our children can feed/bathe/change themselves, even wash their own dishes after eating. So is not a major problem on holidays to go without the maid. You have to train them not to be so reliant on the maid. One of these days, the supply of maids will be reduced or the price will go sky high. If you raise yr kids now to be dependent on maids to the extent that you need to bring the maid on holidays to help out, then how abt yr next generation? Also still dependent on maids? No hope for Singaporeans l.or. Just like the NS man whose maid carry his back pack for him. (shakes head).

Singaporeans might think they are v. cool bringing their maids along on holiday to look after the kids/carry the luggage. But actually travellers from other countries are laughing at them.

if only more singaporean parents are like you

[bargain hunter]

i thought i saw cape advertised as 3.4m ceiling? laguna can confirm?

i also think your 4.75m is the minimum for a comfortable loft.

think u discovered a loophole/gem in ground floor lofts at greenwich. logically, any double volume which can build decent loft will have its airspace counted as strata area.

yea but we r turned off by the high psf.....at least provide me 5m ceiling height....if not i wun pay so much extra premium for the air space

in fact i tink only greenwich ground flr studios can comfortably build a loft....tennery is a joke....btw, cape provide how tall ceiling height?

[bargain hunter]

think the consultant who wrote that wanna push sales for these super big units. i agree that such units are rare, but as discussed, yield is hardly attractive.

meanwhile, there are many new 2000sq ft 4 bedders still looking for tenants. LOL. too big for locals, too small for foreigners.

The preference of the expatriate community is for larger four-bedroom apartments of at least 2,800 sq ft. The smaller size units are not particularly attractive as the majority of middle- and upper-management families relocating prefer spacious four-bedroom units that come with entertainment areas

buy 2800X2500psf=7mio.....nid at least 20k rental a mth to make it worthwhile....can fetch 20k anot....chun bor......expats might as well rent nice detached houses

23k can get u a super nice bungalow in D11
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listi...odern-bungalow

[Wild Falcon]

I think the Far East projects (Greenwich etc) are just high ceiling and not loft and they r not counted in size of unit. Even the older FEO projects have pretty high ceiling way above 3m - I guess FEO didn't capitalise on that in their previous marketing efforts but now realise it is an "asset" that they need to trumpet about (esp when their competitors are cutting corners and building ceilings like HDB flats). I think comfortable "loft" shd be around 5m at least! Or else how to add a mezzanine? All these double-volume ceiling loft is not worth it becos it's just airspace...

i thought i saw cape advertised as 3.4m ceiling? laguna can confirm?

i also think your 4.75m is the minimum for a comfortable loft.

think u discovered a loophole/gem in ground floor lofts at greenwich. logically, any double volume which can build decent loft will have its airspace counted as strata area.

[devilplate]

i thought i saw cape advertised as 3.4m ceiling? laguna can confirm?

i also think your 4.75m is the minimum for a comfortable loft.

think u discovered a loophole/gem in ground floor lofts at greenwich. logically, any double volume which can build decent loft will have its airspace counted as strata area.

yesh...its indeed a nice selling point....i attended the greenwich preview and there r still 3 ground flr units left at tat time(only about 50psf more den the upper flrs 1bedder with much lower ceiling height....)

i went without the intention to buy one....and nearly bot one lor...bcoz i tot can convert it to become a 2bedder.....but again, 1150psf is way too high for jalan kayu

[Wild Falcon]

It's interesting to note from the article that rentals for 1-3 bedders in prime area are already softening. So yields are deteriorating while capital values keep going up... major mismatch.

think the consultant who wrote that wanna push sales for these super big units. i agree that such units are rare, but as discussed, yield is hardly attractive.

meanwhile, there are many new 2000sq ft 4 bedders still looking for tenants. LOL. too big for locals, too small for foreigners.

[ysyap]

Sorry for butting back in on the MM discussion.

Hello I AM the wife. I have a full-time job. Our children can feed/bathe/change themselves, even wash their own dishes after eating. So is not a major problem on holidays to go without the maid. You have to train them not to be so reliant on the maid. One of these days, the supply of maids will be reduced or the price will go sky high. If you raise yr kids now to be dependent on maids to the extent that you need to bring the maid on holidays to help out, then how abt yr next generation? Also still dependent on maids? No hope for Singaporeans l.or. Just like the NS man whose maid carry his back pack for him. (shakes head).

Singaporeans might think they are v. cool bringing their maids along on holiday to look after the kids/carry the luggage. But actually travellers from other countries are laughing at them.

What about families with 3 kids all below 6 years old? Really a handful to handle. Ask parents to go along? Or don't go for holiday till kids are old enough??? Hmmm...

[gn108]

defo yields have been coming off - as cap values have risen much more than rentals over the last two years.
The thing is Mortgage rates have been on the decline - so yields will compress. The music for some will end once this is reversed, catching the 'yield chasers' off and making their 'investments' cashflow negative.

[devilplate]

What about families with 3 kids all below 6 years old? Really a handful to handle. Ask parents to go along? Or don't go for holiday till kids are old enough??? Hmmm...

hardly see couples with 3 kids liao.....at most 2 only

[devilplate]

defo yields have been coming off - as cap values have risen much more than rentals over the last two years.
The thing is Mortgage rates have been on the decline - so yields will compress. The music for some will end once this is reversed, catching the 'yield chasers' off and making their 'investments' cashflow negative.

so better buy at least 4% yield....only negative when mortgage int rates shoot above ur nett rental yield

i believe int rates at most hit 4% max for this cycle...well i cud b wrong

[ysyap]

yes....tats wat the agt at the trizon showflat told me as well....at least they r honest about it...

loft at miro/altez/icon aso counted as twice the strata space wor

but greenwich not counted.....but aso charge u a premium.....

Its Far East wat.... When Luxus Hill is completed, its another posh area and Greenwich is surrounded by all landed...

anyway, think 57@ Kovan also has a unit with double height living room but not counted double...

[mantrix]

me going to offload my props liao too

something's in the air

[ysyap]

me going to offload my props liao too

something's in the air

Did u hear/see something in the air? Pls share!

[gn108]

But as you say - harder to crash the market now as time goes on with the lower Loan ratio. More holding power.
Just makes low yielders a poorer investment choice ...maybe stocks will regain the shine? Maybe Commercial/Retail property will be the next flavour of the month... but in residential property, the easy money has already been made.

so better buy at least 4% yield....only negative when mortgage int rates shoot above ur nett rental yield

i believe int rates at most hit 4% max for this cycle...well i cud b wrong

[chiaberry]

What about families with 3 kids all below 6 years old? Really a handful to handle. Ask parents to go along? Or don't go for holiday till kids are old enough??? Hmmm...

haha such spacing of kids makes for very hard work whether on holiday or not. In such case, can bring the maid along, or parents if they are still fit, or leave the youngest at home or everybody stay at home till kids are old enough. As long as you don't abuse the maid by making her look after the kids as well as carry the luggage (as I have seen some people do so).

I take my hats off to parents with such family spacing. Imagine the fun when the kids are having important exams in school one after the other within the short space of time.

[devilplate]

But as you say - harder to crash the market now as time goes on with the lower Loan ratio. More holding power.
Just makes low yielders a poorer investment choice ...maybe stocks will regain the shine? Maybe Commercial/Retail property will be the next flavour of the month... but in residential property, the easy money has already been made.

most bros here oredi stop hunting for hses and vested more into equities now

as for retail/commercial....i gave up....not familiar wif this game....better stick wif smthing i fam

[chiaberry]

But as you say - harder to crash the market now as time goes on with the lower Loan ratio. More holding power.
Just makes low yielders a poorer investment choice ...maybe stocks will regain the shine? Maybe Commercial/Retail property will be the next flavour of the month... but in residential property, the easy money has already been made.

The market might still come down significantly in time to come. Some people had bought before the recent measures. And when those TOP and tenants cannot be found to help service the housing loan, they might have to bite the bullet and release at lower prices. Esp if interest rates rise. We shall see who sneezes first. Buyers or sellers. I suspect it will be sellers. I cannot imagine there can be enough takers for the mass of MM units coming on line. I have a 2-bedder 99 LH in Tanglin (980 sq ft) bought some years ago and my agent told me is competing for tenants with 2-bedder units in Marina Bay. My cash flow is still bearable for my unit at the rent I am getting, but I can't imagine that the cash flow for those who bought in Marina Bay can be that favourable. Unless they have deep deep pockets.

So those of you who wish to invest for rental, better do yr sums well and make sure you can withstand periods of time without tenants or at low rents (even lower than current yields).

[devilplate]

The market might still come down significantly in time to come. Some people had bought before the recent measures. And when those TOP and tenants cannot be found to help service the housing loan, they might have to bite the bullet and release at lower prices. Esp if interest rates rise. We shall see who sneezes first. Buyers or sellers. I suspect it will be sellers. I cannot imagine there can be enough takers for the mass of MM units coming on line. I have a 2-bedder 99 LH in Tanglin (980 sq ft) bought some years ago and my agent told me is competing for tenants with 2-bedder units in Marina Bay. My cash flow is still bearable for my unit at the rent I am getting, but I can't imagine that the cash flow for those who bought in Marina Bay can be that favourable. Unless they have deep deep pockets.

So those of you who wish to invest for rental, better do yr sums well and make sure you can withstand periods of time without tenants or at low rents (even lower than current yields).

it depends when the market starts to crash....if within this yr....can expect to see many firesales....but if drags on longer without major external shock.....more speculators without holding power cud hf sold their unit by den......changed to a stronger holding owner

mind u....western countries only nid 10% downpayment....vs asia countries 40% or lesser for china

[ysyap]

Which is preferred? HDB without outstanding loan (cheaper so easier to clear loan) fetching rental yield of $2k a month vs condo with outstanding loan ($2k monthly) and rental yield of $4k a month? Both would liquidate $2k monthly but which is more attractive? No wonder govt always say keep HDB... Must milk dry this HDB cow...

[devilplate]

Which is preferred? HDB without outstanding loan (cheaper so easier to clear loan) fetching rental yield of $2k a month vs condo with outstanding loan ($2k monthly) and rental yield of $4k a month? Both would liquidate $2k monthly but which is more attractive? No wonder govt always say keep HDB... Must milk dry this HDB cow...

nvr sell ur HDB prized collection....this cow will nvr dry......lease expire....i am sure govt will allow lease extension

[chiaberry]

Which is preferred? HDB without outstanding loan (cheaper so easier to clear loan) fetching rental yield of $2k a month vs condo with outstanding loan ($2k monthly) and rental yield of $4k a month? Both would liquidate $2k monthly but which is more attractive? No wonder govt always say keep HDB... Must milk dry this HDB cow...

Agreed. Unless gah-men relaxes the measures, we won't be able to acquire another such cow in our life time. I regret not getting a bigger unit at the time. But anyway 4A unit is v. easy to rent out.

[proud owner]

suddenly no one talks about QE2 anymore ??????????????


all those talks of printing money ... buy assets ... all disappeared

people here have no view of their own...

wind blows east all go east
wind blows west all go west

[devilplate]

suddenly no one talks about QE2 anymore ??????????????


all those talks of printing money ... buy assets ... all disappeared

people here have no view of their own...

wind blows east all go east
wind blows west all go west

harlow...all small timers here....we dun dictate the market but rather ride on the trend and follow the smart $

[amk]

wah is this legal???

I think it is. over 6M double volume can be counted twice. less than 5m cannot. At least for condos.

all those talks of printing money ... buy assets ... all disappeared

no we are still here. I'm still long assets. because of MBT it's becoming harder, so we have to look for other assets.

not only individuals. ever wonder why suddenly so many multi million/billion M&As ? the system is flush with cash.

[Laguna]

one can guage the HDB resale property market or property market is the parking situation at HDB Hub where Propnet and DTZ are located as well.

Went to HDB hub for rojak today, and found that there are >400 parking lots available. Last year, before all the cooling measures, u could not even find a parking lot without waiting for at least 10-20 minutes.

Ya, market volume has gone down

[DaytonaSS]

suddenly no one talks about QE2 anymore ??????????????


all those talks of printing money ... buy assets ... all disappeared

people here have no view of their own...

wind blows east all go east
wind blows west all go west

Issnt it here already? If not y STI index 3xxx, y property still making highs each month despite the terrible measures. The cheap supply of $$$ is a result of QE1&2 is issnt it?

The current measures only pent up the demand. When released it will only form another upward pressure on price.

Housing demand doesn't disappear because of measures. Supply needs 2-3 years to materialize .

[ysyap]

Issnt it here already? If not y STI index 3xxx, y property still making highs each month despite the terrible measures. The cheap supply of $$$ is a result of QE1&2 is issnt it?

The current measures only pent up the demand. When released it will only form another upward pressure on price.

Housing demand doesn't disappear because of measures. Supply needs 2-3 years to materialize .

Agreed. Housing demands will remain regardless of measures or price increase. Its actually a matter of accepting it as the new norm before people return to the market.

Consider few years back when taxi prices increased and the whole nation lamented with so many surveys done and forums written. Now, it is the new norm. No more articles written (not juicy news anymore). So much debate when govt announced building IR then but now, its here to stay and being the new norm, people accepted it and stopped complaining. It will be the same for the housing market. Cannot expect 3 generations to stay in one miserable HDB 4 room flat forever? Maybe for some people but most will move out...

Most Singaporeans are like that... complain complain then move on... if don't complain, very uncomfortable... Welcome to Singapore... Watch 'We are Singaporeans' tonight...

[fclim]

But all the developers are still bidding at sky high prices. Is there something they know that we don't? Why must the government release three, four plots at a time? Why can't they release all 10 or 20 plots in one go? It's like trying to tease the market by releasing a bit at a time. Developers who are unsuccessful will try to outbid each other thereby raising prices overall.

[ysyap]

But all the developers are still bidding at sky high prices. Is there something they know that we don't? Why must the government release three, four plots at a time? Why can't they release all 10 or 20 plots in one go? It's like trying to tease the market by releasing a bit at a time. Developers who are unsuccessful will try to outbid each other thereby raising prices overall.

If release all at once, govt have no more land to last the rest of the year so nothing to show for their continued efforts to cool housing market... land is their biggest ammunition...
Also release all at once will result in lower price tag so earn less lor...

[chiaberry]

But all the developers are still bidding at sky high prices. Is there something they know that we don't? Why must the government release three, four plots at a time? Why can't they release all 10 or 20 plots in one go? It's like trying to tease the market by releasing a bit at a time. Developers who are unsuccessful will try to outbid each other thereby raising prices overall.

It is my understanding that developers (particularly the "big boys") need to bid at sky high prices in order to "preserve" the value of their existing unsold stock or land. If they allow some smaller developers to acquire the land at cheaper prices, the deemed value of the land/property in that area will appear to have gone down and they would have to revalue their land/property that they have in their books downwards. The value of their assets will have shrunk "on paper". So at all costs they cannot allow the successful bids to come in low. The higher the bid, the higher they can value their assets. Hmmm...come to think of it, aren't they artificially creating a bubble? I have no economics background but this doesn't sound too good to me.