Many forummers have been taking sides on the rich-poor divide debate, while some sit on the fence. So here's a simple anonymous poll: What's your take on the RPD and what would you do/what's your reaction?
Printable View
Many forummers have been taking sides on the rich-poor divide debate, while some sit on the fence. So here's a simple anonymous poll: What's your take on the RPD and what would you do/what's your reaction?
raise GST is to help the poor! :p
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by august
Do it subtlely. Don't frighten the rich. Let the rich stay here. Tax the rich to help the poor.
GST does not help the poor.. it is the one that impacts them directly and raises their cost of living.
Only Capital Gain Tax, Income Tax and Estate Duty hits the rich more than the poor. But we did away with 2 of them and kept the other low - that's the reasons why the rich are coming into singapore (esp the estate duty). But I'm for that as well :) Not rich..but estate duty will hit me alot too and i've also gained alot from capital gain tax waiever.
The only way to help the poor is actually govt subsidies (which is gotten from taxes).
hmm... ways to help the poor...Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
i can only think of minimum wage for a start ~
also subsidised housing (not the mah minister's definition of "subsidy" though lol) & free education
Agree with minimum wage but it should be done through government supplement - not from the employers' pocket.Quote:
Originally Posted by august
Agree with free education.
Where got low? :scared-4:Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
Very very high!!!
http://images.zaazu.com/img/cry2-mal...0276-large.gif
Some more still got people in the above poll choose "Sacrifice: The divide is unfair! Tax me more, and favor the poor"!
Really very noble ...
The best solution is to raise the GST, it is more invisible as you don't feel it so much.
Uh ok what.. you earn more.. you get taxed at highest bracket is alright mah.. I used to pay taxes at the highest bracket but have since stopped paying because my income is now derived solely from dividends/interests which are taxed at source.. (which taxed indirectly but doesn't bother me.. it's a happy problem to be taxed at the highest bracket! :))Quote:
Originally Posted by jlrx
wah pple here very noble
my gr gr grandfather came to singapore dirt poor, but worked his way up to become clerk in a brit merchant firm. even my time my mother used to sit at table with me with a cane and reminded me that if i dun study, i'll end up begging in the streets (and get nice corporal or sergeant stripes if i fail exams)
in singapore most people with a poly dip or a basic local degree make it to the middle classes. then there are those wo formal education but thru sheer grit become successes. if one falls into neither of those categories, well, this is a consequence of a misspent youth and subsequently, not trying hard enough. that is life.
free edu is a right and a must. but min wages etc rewards the lazy- wat sort of msg are we sending future gens?
even in the stone age - he who trains to hunt and hunts well gets his rightful share of the hunt.
the only thing that sits apart is ***ual attractiveness. Only God determines who has a handsome face or bigger boobies
Nowadays, the plastic surgeon determines your boobies and face :) It's a common trend nowadays with alot of middle class and above people.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfoo
Unless the environment here supports an active labour union that fights for adequate wages, the policy of Min. Wages is a good way to prevent exploitation of the weak. Of course, everything carried to an extreme is bad.
From here I think a good thought i gleamed off the book of "A mandarin and the making of public policy - Ngian Tong Dow" is that the policy when it was first formulated was good and served its purpose. However, subsequent iterations became improvement/fine-tuning of the policy without considering whether there is a need for the policy or why there was this policy in the first place. In other words, subsequent administrations lose sight of the purpose of the policies , but instead just implement it for the sake of continuity and not rocking the boat too much.
If i'm not wrong, NWC (national wage council) served as the intermediary between workers, union and companies to target an orderly wage increase or to set guidelines on adequate wage structure. But has NWC lose sights of its purpose and is now more bias towards companies? I don't know and it's for you to judge and comment as I have always been adequately compensated for my effort, it's the blue-collars locals that NWC probably should start focusing on.
Happy ... until the Notice of Assessment arrives.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus
http://images.zaazu.com/img/cry2-mal...0276-large.gif
They should reduce it to 17%, same as company tax rate.
Min wage does not reward the lazy, it helps to prevent the exploitation by employers, especially when employees are competing with 3rd world competition for jobs. It helps ppl to survive, so it is not a reward.Quote:
Originally Posted by gfoo
This is interesting... with gfoo raising the issue on rich poor divide.
Here are my 2 cents on how to bridge this:
Against:
1) GST increase
-GST is a consumption based tax. Due to its fixed rate, GST taxes the poor MORE than the rich; contrary to popular belief. Take the poor for example - Mr ChurchMouse earns $800 per month (after CPF). $250 is for rental, $150 is for transport, $50 is for medical, and $350 for food and personal consumption. In short, Mr ChurchMouse saves nothing and consumes everything. 100% of his earnings are subject to GST.
As opposed to Mr Rich who earns $20k, spends $8k and invest the rest (stocks, commodities, properties). The portion of his income subject to GST is 40%. Taxation should always be assessed in proportionate terms, not in dollar quantum.
2) Minimum wages and unemployment benefits
- Countries which legislated minimum wages have lagged in competitiveness. For Singapore which is an open economy and heavily dependent on external demand and foreign direct investment, minimum wages is a no-no. Kills off our competitiveness over the long run.
For:
1) Greater equalisation of opportunities
- Free (quality) early childhood education for median household income of $4k and below. Early childhood is a time of rapid brain development; where phonetic concepts and the ability to read and write well are acquired. Investment in early childhood reaps better returns than investment at any other point of a child's life and helps to break the poverty cycle. Greater emphasis and investment in education through all levels is also a good social leveller.
2) Enhancement of Singapore's competitiveness
- The key here is not to tax EACH company or EACH individual more, but to attract MORE high net worth individuals and viable companies to set up base here such that our tax base will be increased. With the rest of the developed economies printing so much $$$ to finance their national debt, the inevitable outcome is only to raise taxes to finance their debt. Singapore should do the reverse to capture more of such companies and individuals. With greater competitiveness, jobs creation will proliferate and the poor will have more opportunities and better social workfare.
As with all developed economies, the rich poor divide will only get larger with time. It is an inevitable social ill; but it is how the society develops in its graciousness and compassion over time that will also help to bridge this divide.
But what about the poor? How do they survive without minimum wage and open competition? Many undeveloped countries suffer from this inequality and are they more competitive? Many still remain 3rd world country piss poor.Quote:
Originally Posted by new2mondrian
theres no quick fix to make the poor more rich ..
setting minimum wage will piss employers .. and they will move to China / indo / malaysia ...
i best , most effective way to FREE education , all the way to at least A levels ...
with a good education , everyone is given an equal opportunity
Ask the government to top it up lah.Quote:
Originally Posted by proud owner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reporter
Agree that minimum wage to be topped up by Govt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reporter
A good education is not necessarily the best way out of the poverty trap these days, I was just watching a documentary on the Philippines and everyone wants to study hard too, I was just wondering how many of them would end up in Singapore, taking away the opportunities of the next generation Singaporeans with their low demands here but considered still good salaries after they remit the money home.
Precisely ~ :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by xebay11
Meant to be prevent exploitation from capitalists.
Err, excuse me. Settiing minimum wage is to make the poor more rich??? Sounds like a straw man argument to me. :tongue3:Quote:
Originally Posted by proud owner
Quote:
Originally Posted by august
i didnt say that
i said THERES NO QUICK FIX TO MAKE POOR MORE RICH .... meaning its a long process ...
then i went on to say that :
SETTING MIN WAGE WILL PISS EMPLOYERS ...
there is a reason why those 2 statements are on 2 separate sentences ...so that they are 2 different topics, so to speak ..
havent you learn that in school ? ?
see a good education is important
Haha when ppl talk about minimum wage it is refering to those most lowly paid, as opposed to wage cap for top earners. Do these lowest paid jobs chip away a company's competitiveness? If it does, then such a company is already not in an industry that value adds.Quote:
Originally Posted by new2mondrian
Hiring based on the cheapest will also erode productivity, which SG is witnessing ever since the floodgates to cheap foreign workers are thrown wide open.
If competitiveness is really the concern, then govt shld start lowering fixed costs such as rentals, utilities, taxes etc.
The greatest contributor to competitiveness is human resource, and it is nurtured & maximised by incentivising, definitely not by beating down wages at the lowest level.
my 2 cents...
a lot of interesting points raised on setting a minimum wage.
the truth is the minimum wages policy is easy to suggest, but tough to implement, and not without its social issues. for one, WHAT is the minimum wage? Taking the US example, should it be S$6 per hour (then why not $6.20, not $7)???!!! And how to factor inflation into minimum wages? And what about other employment benefits such as medical insurance and annual leave? how do they factor into minimum wages? And the same minimum wage across all industries? Meaning the cleaner has the same minimum wage as the production worker in the semi-con plant, or the hawker assistant? Then what about the linkage between wage to productivity to GDP? Then what about performance-linked pay? The slacker who sleeps on the job is guaranteed of a minimum wage? Then it will be the productive and the tax-paying cohort subsidising the unproductive (after all, the Government coffers is funded by taxes); and certain labour-intensive industries profiting at the expense of other capital-intensive ones. Is this what we all want?
A more viable long term plan for Singapore will still be enhanced business environment, business friendly policies and greater foreign direct investment flows. Government's subsidy should always be aimed at increasing productivity of its workforce, through subsidised training to raise productivity and employability, and not through minimum wages. It is through jobs creation and friendly business environment that workers have more jobs to choose from; it is through constant training and highly skilled workforce that per capita income will rise. I am a firm believer of market forces. By setting minimum wages in Singapore, it is a step backwards.
My PERSONAL 2 cents.
As for Government to SUBSIDISE the company in the minimum wage policy, that is almost ludicrous to suggest. It is as good as ENCOURAGING all companies to pay below minimum wages such that they can enjoy the top-up subsidy from Government.
Where is this top-up subsidy gonna come from? More taxes from you and me? We all want to start subsidising such companies and promoting such behaviour henceforth???!!!
This is one of the many issues that come with minimum wages... Not all policy implementation by developed economies is perfect. A lot of it comes with tonnes of historical and political baggage which we might not want to emulate.
Is it really that hard to implement?Quote:
Originally Posted by new2mondrian
And since when did the present govt ever use "hard to implement" as an excuse and stop pursuing its all other objectives?
Or is it more like there is no political will to do so? (since such policies do nothing to raising GDP numbers which policy makers are appraised on and therefore is a waste of time)
Minimum wage is for the poorest & lowest paid in society, not your knowledge workers etc. It is welfare, protecting the poor, and setting a benchmark against wage exploitation. So sorry to say arguments on competitiveness etc make no sense and are red herrings.
Fact of the matter is the present govt is stuck at some ideological level not to pursue such policies. They would rather mollycoddle and "subsidise" the top 10% instead of looking out for the bottom 10% in society and squeezing everyone else in the middle.
Long live capitalism!
Greed is good! :spliff:
Not having minimum wage is OK in the OLD Singapore, where the playing field was level for all, but how do you address the work force today? What is a low wage to a Singaporean, is a King's ransom to someone from a third world country, and if the market were to decide, guess who would the exploitive employer hire?Quote:
Originally Posted by new2mondrian
Highly skilled workforce? where are the jobs to support them? The latest strategy by the Govt to boost the economy is the opening of the two IRs, where are the highly skilled jobs to go with that? Yeah sure I can foresee many PHD and post grad Phils vying for those jobs.
Not having a minimum wage and paying the ppl sweatshop labour wages and sweat shop conditions is several steps backwards.
5 years ago, a singaporean was filling up my tank at the petrol kiosk
4 years ago, a singaporean retiree was doing that
3 years ago, a malaysian
2 years ago, an indian national or bangla
1 year ago, a male PRC
yesterday, a female PRC - one of those peidu mamas
same story in the food courts, etc etc
foreign talent meh? dun take much brains to operate a petrol pump and wipe my windscreen.
Having a minimum wage is good, why?
It is a bitter pill to take and is really a bite the bullet measure, I was an employer before, sure it was hard in those days to depend on Singaporeans with their tough attitudes and 'high wages' but this ensured that only the best businesses who could make the best profits to be able to sustain and pay the high wages to survive, and this would go inline with having an educated workforce and create value for the nation.
The competitiveness was automatically pushed onto the entrepreneurs to survive, such measures would encourage the best and brightest brains in Singapore to go into high technology, high value added businesses to take on global competitiveness. However, some smart scholars who have never been in business before, decided that it is the least educated, most unfortunate, lowly wage earner group who should be the ones to shoulder the burden of global competitiveness and without any protection where would the poor have to defend themselves?
Entrepreneurs take the easy way out and simply choose to exploit workers......how is Singapore to progress?
Contributing factors to being rich:
1. Inheritance
2. Knowledge-based
3. Network-based
4. Emotional-based
5. Hardwork + opportunities
Contributing factors to being poor:
1. Laziness
2. Unforuntate cumulative series of events, such as:
a. poor-health - suck away your productive time & $
b. addicted to vices (eg. gambling, drug-abuse) - suck away your productive time & $
What would I do?
1. When young => study hard (hardwork)
2. When work => work hard (hardwork)
3. When have little money => invest hard (hardwork)
4. When fall => learnt precious lesson and start over again (hardwork)
5. When have more money => contribute back to society (hardwork)
My views on
1. basic education - Agree (existing policy is fair)
2. basic healthcare - Agree (must be careful not to promote wastage)
3. basic housing - Agree (must stay with market fundamentals)
4. basic subsidy for less-fortunate fellow citizens - Agree (we are humans with feelings afterall)
5. increasing GST - Disagree with the need at the moment. Any increase must be jusified with reasons why the current level is not enough.
My personal views above stress on hard work be it study, work or play :)
(hope i don't get misunderstood for contribution my humble points of view)
Ha Ha, I feel that the richer and more important you are, the less you work, ever notice that in big companies, if you actually have to work, it means you are low ranking. Bosses just talk.
And how to be the boss? In many instances, it is good looks, luck, inheritance and social networking, or any of the four, or combination.....seldom through working hard. :D
xebay11 always have words of wisdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by xebay11
Quote:
The Straits Times
Nov 16, 2009
Secret of doing less work: Learn from bosses
NEW YORK: Never mind the recession.
Workers can still find ways to do less and get away with it, says the author of a tongue-in-cheek look at the workplace, How To Relax Without Getting The Axe.
The secret is learning and adapting the tricks of powerful, successful people, said Mr Stanley Bing, whose book - subtitled A Survival Guide To The New Workplace - comes out tomorrow.
'It's a perilous workplace environment but, that said, it should be possible to learn from the way that successful people manage their time and manage their careers,' he told Reuters in an interview.
'It is a handbook for people who haven't yet attained what they would consider powerful status, to be able to use some of the same tricks that their bosses do and make it work.'
Mr Bing is actually a pseudonym for Mr Gil Schwartz, who is executive vice-president of corporate communications for CBS. He began using the monicker Mr Stanley Bing years ago when he was writing a column for Esquire magazine.
The book is loaded with strategic tips such as how to delegate, which he says, is 'at the heart of all power'; how to identify a remote problem to justify an expense-paid business trip; and how to create the illusion of an office door for privacy, even in an open workplace of cubicles.
Being absent from the workplace helps create the sense of being too important to be around and available, he said.
'A lot of people don't respect people they can reach too easily,' Mr Bing said. 'You're immediately aggrandised by the fact that you are essentially a virtual person.'
Also critical is having an assistant or failing that, appropriating someone else's assistant.
'You use other people. This is what successful people do in all business, in all walks of life,' Mr Bing said. The tricks are timeless ways for anyone to gain control over their job, their time and their life, he said.
REUTERS