Freehold vs lease hold 99 after the recent news

In the past when I asked around, most told me that freehold or leasehold doesn't matter, what matters is location. Since my hubby and I are buying for own stay rather than investment, we chose to buy freehold. we own a HDB 5 room flat which we bought for only $240K, so we will use that as an investment for rental instead. 20 to 30 years later, we will sell our freehold unit and move back to our HDB. When we heard the recent news regarding developer retaining freehold land selling as leasehold, we were glad that our decision to choose freehold is right since it will become more valuable in future.

However after some thought, it may not be the case. maybe I am wrong. More leasehold property means prices will go down. we bought our FH 2 bedrm penthouse unit at high price of $953K at $983psf. If future prices of leasehold property is low, we may not be able to sell FH unit at high price becos we will always be competing with new leasehold project which is much affordable. So for future buyers, it will not be advisable to buy FH units. Those who bought freehold units in the past may stand to gain.

Yes I do need some enlightenment as I may be wrong :p

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

When we heard the recent news regarding developer retaining freehold land selling as leasehold,

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what news?


My principle no 1 still location, location, location!

Yup. It is the location that matters. The term FH is just some tricks agents market for FH properties. Just look around some LH99 properties and see how prices spiral up. 200 to 300%. FH, I have seen prices dropping and never recover as well. It is the location and not FH vs LH. I don't think anyone should still bother as history has shown AND proven there is little correlation between the prices and FH.

Just pause and think - Which is the most expensive condo in Singapore? Orchard Residences, LH99. And of course, MBR and Sail are LH99 as well. Mirage towers, FH, go check out the history of prices. Maybe you might want to compare with Citylights, a 99LH but in a better location. Then you will understand location is superior and NOT FH or LH.

But of course, if you think FH is better, by all means, go buy. It is just IMO FH is a marketing tactics by developer. Once the condo hit pass its prime age, FH or LH, the value doesn't hold. But again, this is strictly my personal opinion.

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

In the past when I asked around, most told me that freehold or leasehold doesn't matter, what matters is location. Since my hubby and I are buying for own stay rather than investment, we chose to buy freehold. we own a HDB 5 room flat which we bought for only $240K, so we will use that as an investment for rental instead. 20 to 30 years later, we will sell our freehold unit and move back to our HDB. When we heard the recent news regarding developer retaining freehold land selling as leasehold, we were glad that our decision to choose freehold is right since it will become more valuable in future.

However after some thought, it may not be the case. maybe I am wrong. More leasehold property means prices will go down. we bought our FH 2 bedrm penthouse unit at high price of $953K at $983psf. If future prices of leasehold property is low, we may not be able to sell FH unit at high price becos we will always be competing with new leasehold project which is much affordable. So for future buyers, it will not be advisable to buy FH units. Those who bought freehold units in the past may stand to gain.

Yes I do need some enlightenment as I may be wrong :p

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There is no arguement, simply put, if FH prices are high, it would mean demand is high, so no worries about selling in future, or wait for enbloc.

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79
Yes I do need some enlightenment as I may be wrong

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Don't be spoon fed lah. Go and dig up old old threads and read, instead of asking for information that had been repeated more then 52 times a years.

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Originally Posted by Property_Owner

what news?


My principle no 1 still location, location, location!

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Yes, so well located FH would trounce well located LH in the long run,

The Sail is still relatively new, so prices will climb, come back again in 40 years and we will see. There is no FH land in the Marina Bay area to compete with the LH properties there, so of course the LH properties there would appreciate but what about the outlying areas? In my line of work, I can tell you that the resale prices for suburban mass market LH property to say the least, is dismal

THERE IS A 999LH DEVELOPMENT NOT FAR FROM MARINA BAY.

actually to people living in large countries, singapore is actually just like a city in their country and everywhere is close to everywhere in singapore. it takes 1/2 an hour to drive from Jurong to the Central and 45min to drive from Changi to jurong. Amenities are actually near to every residential area depending on how people term as far. Singapore is typically about the only country with people grumbling that 500m to the MRT station and shops is far. I think a lot of home buyers in singapore tend to use a handicap man on a wheelchair as a gauge when it comes to determining what is far. The old ladies who take 20 minute walks to bus stations during winter and working people who commute 2-3 hours to work every day in London can really put Singaporeans to shame.

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Originally Posted by Property_Owner

what news?


My principle no 1 still location, location, location!

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Geylang not too far from Marina Bay with plenty of freehold condos there. Geylang will shoot up to $1500psf the moment the govt cleans up the red light and transform the area into a condo hub

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Originally Posted by DC33_2008

THERE IS A 999LH DEVELOPMENT NOT FAR FROM MARINA BAY.

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Originally Posted by xebay11

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Originally Posted by Property_Owner

what news?


My principle no 1 still location, location, location!

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Yes, so well located FH would trounce well located LH in the long run,

The Sail is still relatively new, so prices will climb, come back again in 40 years and we will see. There is no FH land in the Marina Bay area to compete with the LH properties there, so of course the LH properties there would appreciate but what about the outlying areas? In my line of work, I can tell you that the resale prices for suburban mass market LH property to say the least, is dismal

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FH or LH does not matter that much at the beginning of the condo's life, but matters very much near the end.

If you are playing the en bloc market, then it is very important to pay careful attention to the lease because the differential premium that the developer has to pay to the government to top up the lease can mean the difference between life and death of the en bloc investor! :scared-4:

It is always safer to buy a FH en bloc because there is only one headache, i.e. the development charge.

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Originally Posted by jlrx

FH or LH does not matter that much at the beginning of the condo's life, but matters very much near the end.

If you are playing the en bloc market, then it is very important to pay careful attention to the lease because the differential premium that the developer has to pay to the government to top up the lease can mean the difference between life and death of the en bloc investor! :scared-4:

It is always safer to buy a FH en bloc because there is only one headache, i.e. the development charge.

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Amen. That is what I keep telling the bros/sis here too :D New launch LH buy and flip is OK and sound advice, and this is where location, location, location really counts.

I can tell that the really well heeled still do not like FH properties for long term investments. Where I used to live there are two landed developments within the same estate, one is LH and one is FH, the LH landed properties are only 10 years old, less than 500 m from MRT and beautifully designed, I see many up for sale every now and then, but it is still the older 40 year FH houses whose prices is much higher than the LH landed houses, which end up getting bought, torn down and rebuilt.

So there. For short term investing LH is OK but for long term own stay / investment nothing beats FH.

Whether you buy FH or LH depends on the reason for buying the home. If you are looking at it as an investment property, living off it's rental yield and flipping it later, then LH is better. Lower purchase cost.

If you are thinking in terms of giving your children an asset 25 years down the line, FH is the choice.

No children leh hee hee. Prepare to sell off when we retire and move back to our HDB. May sell at a loss, but by then as long as after repaying the bank remaining loans still got cash to hold can laugh le, cannot care for profits le..First time buying property, got burnt on spot with no time to consider, hardselling agents!.. Can't imagine paying $983psf for a 969sft PH unit at surburban/mass market area! Got lectured by so many ppl and we dare not even tell my parents in law. No more money to buy second property le :tsk-tsk:

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

No children leh hee hee. Prepare to sell off when we retire and move back to our HDB. May sell at a loss, but by then as long as after repaying the bank remaining loans still got cash to hold can laugh le, cannot care for profits le..First time buying property, got burnt on spot with no time to consider, hardselling agents!.. Can't imagine paying $983psf for a 969sft PH unit at surburban/mass market area! Got lectured by so many ppl and we dare not even tell my parents in law. No more money to buy second property le :tsk-tsk:

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Which suburb? which mass market project? Your price in today's market certainly does not seem like loss making one.

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Originally Posted by dragonred

Whether you buy FH or LH depends on the reason for buying the home. If you are looking at it as an investment property, living off it's rental yield and flipping it later, then LH is better. Lower purchase cost.

If you are thinking in terms of giving your children an asset 25 years down the line, FH is the choice.

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In today's market, it does not seem like LH is "lower purchase cost" than FH. :2cents:

In fact, it's higher merely because of location or proximity to amenities. If one finds hard enough, still can find FH with the above factors built in. :cool:

LH will have problem taking high quantum loan as age catches up.

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Originally Posted by xebay11

Which suburb? which mass market project? Your price in today's market certainly does not seem like loss making one.

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Mine is in D19, Primo residences in jln pelikat road at Kovan area which is in North east... Agents are from huttons, very pushy kind.. A few of them! Ya Price dun seems like loss making within 2 years maybe.. After 2 years prices will go down down down and then stablized according to a friend working in finacial sector...One good example will be that ppl who bot mass market project in 1997 may not even breakeven now. Today's situation is similar to that of 1997... Scary! I hope he is wrong becos he is new to the field.. consoling myself now :(

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

Mine is in D19, Primo residences in jln pelikat road at Kovan area which is in North east... Agents are from huttons, very pushy kind.. A few of them! Ya Price dun seems like loss making within 2 years maybe.. After 2 years prices will go down down down and then stablized according to a friend working in finacial sector...One good example will be that ppl who bot mass market project in 1997 may not even breakeven now. Today's situation is similar to that of 1997... Scary! I hope he is wrong becos he is new to the field.. consoling myself now :(

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The question: "Do you have the holding power?" i.e., Buy within your means.

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

No children leh hee hee. Prepare to sell off when we retire and move back to our HDB. May sell at a loss, but by then as long as after repaying the bank remaining loans still got cash to hold can laugh le, cannot care for profits le..First time buying property, got burnt on spot with no time to consider, hardselling agents!.. Can't imagine paying $983psf for a 969sft PH unit at surburban/mass market area! Got lectured by so many ppl and we dare not even tell my parents in law. No more money to buy second property le :tsk-tsk:

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Anything lower than $1000 psf is considered cheap in another couple of months. :cool:

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Originally Posted by ocoloco79

Mine is in D19, Primo residences in jln pelikat road at Kovan area which is in North east... Agents are from huttons, very pushy kind.. A few of them! Ya Price dun seems like loss making within 2 years maybe.. After 2 years prices will go down down down and then stablized according to a friend working in finacial sector...One good example will be that ppl who bot mass market project in 1997 may not even breakeven now. Today's situation is similar to that of 1997... Scary! I hope he is wrong becos he is new to the field.. consoling myself now :(

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If you have been following the rule of propertism, prices will always go up in the long term amidst short term corrections because value of money will be depreciated over time by inflation. So don't worry too much, enjoy your house.

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Originally Posted by Blue

If you have been following the rule of propertism, prices will always go up in the long term amidst short term corrections because value of money will be depreciated over time by inflation. So don't worry too much, enjoy your house.

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Gosh.... another jlrx in the making??? :scared-3:

jlrx: you have arrived! fellow forummers are now helping u preach your propertism!

Properties - Location, location, location; THEN tenure, tenure, tenure....

That said, entry price is key cos it determines your exit price. Pay $10k psf for The Sail, will wait for a loong while (IF it does happen) to exit, regardless of its location and your holding power.

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Originally Posted by xebay11

Yes, so well located FH would trounce well located LH in the long run,

The Sail is still relatively new, so prices will climb, come back again in 40 years and we will see. There is no FH land in the Marina Bay area to compete with the LH properties there, so of course the LH properties there would appreciate but what about the outlying areas? In my line of work, I can tell you that the resale prices for suburban mass market LH property to say the least, is dismal

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40 years later i wouldn't be around to see anymore Bay.
40 years ago I heard of International Plaza. Now I see see look look but prices doesn't go back.

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Originally Posted by Property_Owner

40 years later i wouldn't be around to see anymore Bay.
40 years ago I heard of International Plaza. Now I see see look look but prices doesn't go back.

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I always look at the perspective of next generation, that is how I see property, it is never about me. So in 40 years I may, or may not be around but that does not matter, as long as I know the next and future generations of mine are taken care of, I feel I have done my duty in bringing my children into the world.

I may look at setting up a trust fund as suggested by jlrx.

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Originally Posted by xebay11

I always look at the perspective of next generation, that is how I see property, it is never about me. So in 40 years I may, or may not be around but that does not matter, as long as I know the next and future generations of mine are taken care of, I feel I have done my duty in bringing my children into the world.

I may look at setting up a trust fund as suggested by jlrx.

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Then you better buy all e freehold now. still lots of it under 1000psf. :rolleyes:

To all the ppl in this thread that has been preaching LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION & FREEHOLE FREEHOLE FREEHOLE.. could anyone enlighten this true case study?

In 1980s

My dad has a chance of buying a commercial space of 120sqft for $400,000 somewhere near battery road & cecil street in one of the building, FREEHOLD

Instead, he bought a 300sqf-400sqf in clementi central for around $400,000. LEASEHOLD.


Close to 30 years later in 2008,

the mama shop cum money changer only willing to pay up to $7000 per month for that space in cecil and the transact price hover around $1.2million

Our neighbour in "clementi shop owner committee" change hand at $1.8million for a just slightly bigger unit. And the other lease to a bank for $18,000 per month with a space about 1.5 times ours.


I ask him once why he don't buy shenton and he just answer in hokkien something like price-in-liao. But he say should get bishan, especially when one of our family friend lease to a saloon on a double storey for $28,000 per month.

SO Why huh? location?? What location? What tenure?

Unfortunately my dad passed away last year, 2 weeks before his Great-Grandchild was borned. And so naturally, I inherit this leasehold property.

And any succession or inheritance problem? Nope. Still have more than 60 years of lease to go and the running of lease would certainly outrun my lifespan with 2 is to 1.. hmm.. got to will to my son in a couple of years soon..

My point is since you cannot time the market, just try and identify upside potential. Like one of the good saying by one of chap here.. If you think geylang got potential from a gov transform, then buy wingcourt loh. Win, win big. lose? then rent to po po kuay loh.. hahahah

today "upside potential" is tommorrow people "good location". be the advance party.

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Originally Posted by new2mondrian

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Originally Posted by Blue

If you have been following the rule of propertism, prices will always go up in the long term amidst short term corrections because value of money will be depreciated over time by inflation. So don't worry too much, enjoy your house.

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Gosh.... another jlrx in the making??? :scared-3:

jlrx: you have arrived! fellow forummers are now helping u preach your propertism!

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I'd initially thought that everyone in this forum would agree with PROPERTISM - the belief that property prices always go up in the long term!

Actually I was quite taken aback by the general response of the people here to PROPERTISM.

My relatives are mostly PROPERTISM believers. Some of them had held on to their family properties for more than 100 years, into the 5th generation now.

So buy freehold landed is the best? Especially those old old bunglows. Can alway tear down and build again, or even build a small condo and sell 99years. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by apple3

To all the ppl in this thread that has been preaching LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION & FREEHOLE FREEHOLE FREEHOLE.. could anyone enlighten this true case study?

In 1980s

My dad has a chance of buying a commercial space of 120sqft for $400,000 somewhere near battery road & cecil street in one of the building, FREEHOLD

Instead, he bought a 300sqf-400sqf in clementi central for around $400,000. LEASEHOLD.


Close to 30 years later in 2008,

the mama shop cum money changer only willing to pay up to $7000 per month for that space in cecil and the transact price hover around $1.2million

Our neighbour in "clementi shop owner committee" change hand at $1.8million for a just slightly bigger unit. And the other lease to a bank for $18,000 per month with a space about 1.5 times ours.


I ask him once why he don't buy shenton and he just answer in hokkien something like price-in-liao. But he say should get bishan, especially when one of our family friend lease to a saloon on a double storey for $28,000 per month.

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THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH!!!

That is very valuable information indeed!

Is there anyway to check the transacted price and rental of these HDB shops?

I have been searching for such information HIGH and low and HIGH and low and all the property agents are clueless!

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Originally Posted by apple3

To all the ppl in this thread that has been preaching LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION & FREEHOLE FREEHOLE FREEHOLE.. could anyone enlighten this true case study?

In 1980s

My dad has a chance of buying a commercial space of 120sqft for $400,000 somewhere near battery road & cecil street in one of the building, FREEHOLD

Instead, he bought a 300sqf-400sqf in clementi central for around $400,000. LEASEHOLD.


Close to 30 years later in 2008,

the mama shop cum money changer only willing to pay up to $7000 per month for that space in cecil and the transact price hover around $1.2million

Our neighbour in "clementi shop owner committee" change hand at $1.8million for a just slightly bigger unit. And the other lease to a bank for $18,000 per month with a space about 1.5 times ours.


I ask him once why he don't buy shenton and he just answer in hokkien something like price-in-liao. But he say should get bishan, especially when one of our family friend lease to a saloon on a double storey for $28,000 per month.

SO Why huh? location?? What location? What tenure?

Unfortunately my dad passed away last year, 2 weeks before his Great-Grandchild was borned. And so naturally, I inherit this leasehold property.

And any succession or inheritance problem? Nope. Still have more than 60 years of lease to go and the running of lease would certainly outrun my lifespan with 2 is to 1.. hmm.. got to will to my son in a couple of years soon..

My point is since you cannot time the market, just try and identify upside potential. Like one of the good saying by one of chap here.. If you think geylang got potential from a gov transform, then buy wingcourt loh. Win, win big. lose? then rent to po po kuay loh.. hahahah

today "upside potential" is tommorrow people "good location". be the advance party.

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My analysis is on residential property, as commercial properties is a purely bought for yield investment, the LH does not matter. FYI I personally own 99LH commercial property and am on the lookout for higher yield commercial property regardless of lease status. I use such returns from LH properties to fund my FH purchases.

By the way your father's LH properties would probably not go past your son and your grandchildren may not enjoy it fully. I am looking at my descendants.

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Originally Posted by xebay11

My analysis is on residential property, as commercial properties is a purely bought for yield investment, the LH does not matter. FYI I personally own 99LH commercial property and am on the lookout for higher yield commercial property regardless of lease status. I use such returns from LH properties to fund my FH purchases.

By the way your father's LH properties would probably not go past your son and your grandchildren may not enjoy it fully. I am looking at my descendants.

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My Dad and Grandad both a freehold industrial land 45 years ago, and when my Dad retires a few years, he sold it at 250 times of that price. It is near a new mrt stn and city fringe. They also bought a FH landed property 40 years ago and now it worth 150 times. It is also near the city and surrounded by all the mrt stns of N-E line, Circle line and W-E lines. So! I believe that property prices will continue to rise in the long term but some rise faster and more than the others with respect to LOCATION. Look for places that have limited freehold or 999LH properties in prime area. Limited edition is always better. Stone will become a diamond someday.

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Originally Posted by DC33_2008

My Dad and Grandad both a freehold industrial land 45 years ago, and when my Dad retires a few years, he sold it at 250 times of that price. It is near a new mrt stn and city fringe. They also bought a FH landed property 40 years ago and now it worth 150 times. It is also near the city and surrounded by all the mrt stns of N-E line, Circle line and W-E lines. So! I believe that property prices will continue to rise in the long term but some rise faster and more than the others with respect to LOCATION. Look for places that have limited freehold or 999LH properties in prime area. Limited edition is always better. Stone will become a diamond someday.

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Good post. That is why I say location AND FH status is a much better formula than location, location, location alone. Those of us who inherit old money (property) would actually experience and know this.