Watching HDB price behaviour, sensibly

http://www.straitstimes.com/Review/E...ry_433154.html

Sep 23, 2009 Wednesday

Watching HDB price behaviour, sensibly


THERE is a rising pitch of anxiety evident in queries and feedback about HDB housing in recent months. These have centred on affordability mainly, no surprise considering that the sudden spurt in private property prices since July has boosted HDB values, which already were holding better during the recession. Hence, complaints about cash over valuation. Why don't buyers exercise their democratic right to not pay a premium by looking in towns less 'prime'? Home buyers have also touched on policy issues like household income ceiling and the operation of ethnic quotas. National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan addressed most outstanding grouses in a well-timed statement in Parliament last week, but such is the variety of need and the habits of personal preference that assurances would still leave some home-seekers unconvinced.

Affordability is a bugbear, which in turn influences notions of supply relative to demand. Median income and the ratio of household income used for loan service (up to 30 per cent, as a general rule) cited by the minister are indicative of most people's ability to pay, but these are rough guides. In every flat type of up to five rooms and the corresponding price ranges, households which fall below the median income line could progressively be less able to own their homes. That's a lot of families. Financing difficulty can also arise when a family chooses a bigger flat than it can pay for, or needs. There are far too many of these big-is-better purchasers. But this is also where the comprehensiveness of HDB's income-differentiated schemes and the different types of supporting grants available reinforce affordability.

There is little doubt that state housing is affordable, whether new or resale, if one considers carefully precise matching need. The HDB has every conceivable flat type and location to suit every budget. Home seekers create problems for themselves when, as seen, they buy bigger places than they can comfortably finance. They could also be unyielding about wanting to live in 'mature' towns or to be near their parents, for the (selfish?) child-minding convenience. It is an odd mentality that regards only as 'ulu' the new towns which otherwise score heavily in more spacious estate layout and the much nicer, contemporary design of flats. And what of 'distance'? Farthest points on this island are reachable inside an hour by public transport, faster by car. Mr Mah urged buyers to be sensible about making 'trade-offs' between location and price. This newspaper would go further: If they choose to be obstinate about quirks, they should not be hectoring the HDB for impossible concessions.

This is such an irresponsible article. The fact that HDB moved on to "market-based" pricing was the starting point of the property-bubble, which ironically the garment is trying to prevent? Had the stat board stuck to its original mission of providing affordable housing (which all our parents did well), I guess there wouldn't be this craze about condos etc.

The starting pt was that HDB valuation came so high, that ppl started thinking, "why not pay ABIT more to get condo?". What was valuation based on in the first place? The artificial "benchmark" price the garment set in the first place when "valuation" was launched?

The point about "you can choose not to pay COV" or "HDB discloses information on COV for transacted deals" is irelevant. What this leads to in practice is that "oh its common to pay x and x COV to get this house".

Back to the same point, if HDB has its aim correct to give citizens a roof over their head, probably the price discrepancy between HDB and condos would really have great enuf to deter the bubble from forming in the first place. If the argument is about "willing buyer-willing seller", I would then say DPS/IAS, as well as the crazy prices and speculation are just "willing lenders/sellers, willing borrowers/buyers", so why stop them?

If we can recognise that bubbles is bad for everyone (although i view it more like a zero-sum game), I think the best action is to start from its roots, the HDB market.

Quoting "Farthest points on this island are reachable inside an hour by public transport, faster by car." - Ha ha ha! This guy living in heaven? Just driving from Tuas to River Valley already need 1 hour by car during peak hours!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr funny

http://www.straitstimes.com/Review/E...ry_433154.html

Sep 23, 2009 Wednesday

Watching HDB price behaviour, sensibly


THERE is a rising pitch of anxiety evident in queries and feedback about HDB housing in recent months. These have centred on affordability mainly, no surprise considering that the sudden spurt in private property prices since July has boosted HDB values, which already were holding better during the recession. Hence, complaints about cash over valuation. Why don't buyers exercise their democratic right to not pay a premium by looking in towns less 'prime'? Home buyers have also touched on policy issues like household income ceiling and the operation of ethnic quotas. National Development Minister Mah Bow Tan addressed most outstanding grouses in a well-timed statement in Parliament last week, but such is the variety of need and the habits of personal preference that assurances would still leave some home-seekers unconvinced.

Affordability is a bugbear, which in turn influences notions of supply relative to demand. Median income and the ratio of household income used for loan service (up to 30 per cent, as a general rule) cited by the minister are indicative of most people's ability to pay, but these are rough guides. In every flat type of up to five rooms and the corresponding price ranges, households which fall below the median income line could progressively be less able to own their homes. That's a lot of families. Financing difficulty can also arise when a family chooses a bigger flat than it can pay for, or needs. There are far too many of these big-is-better purchasers. But this is also where the comprehensiveness of HDB's income-differentiated schemes and the different types of supporting grants available reinforce affordability.

There is little doubt that state housing is affordable, whether new or resale, if one considers carefully precise matching need. The HDB has every conceivable flat type and location to suit every budget. Home seekers create problems for themselves when, as seen, they buy bigger places than they can comfortably finance. They could also be unyielding about wanting to live in 'mature' towns or to be near their parents, for the (selfish?) child-minding convenience. It is an odd mentality that regards only as 'ulu' the new towns which otherwise score heavily in more spacious estate layout and the much nicer, contemporary design of flats. And what of 'distance'? Farthest points on this island are reachable inside an hour by public transport, faster by car. Mr Mah urged buyers to be sensible about making 'trade-offs' between location and price. This newspaper would go further: If they choose to be obstinate about quirks, they should not be hectoring the HDB for impossible concessions.

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Originally Posted by teddybear

Quoting "Farthest points on this island are reachable inside an hour by public transport, faster by car." - Ha ha ha! This guy living in heaven? Just driving from Tuas to River Valley already need 1 hour by car during peak hours!

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Yup i took an hour to get from my home to office by public transport (and it is only around 10km distance). Maybe the writer can fly...:doh:

Back in the 1980s when Singapore was still a developing country, flats were going at only a few tens of thousands. As I had mentioned before, salaries then were going by the hundreds and not the thousands that people draw today. In the 80s when my father was working as a nurse, her take home pay was merely $400 and if you compare it to what a nurse gets today, it is easily 5 fold. Using that as a rough gauge, if you purchase a 4-room flat in the 80s for $60k, a 5-time increase would bring the price to around $300k which is about right. Not forgetting that we have moved from a developing country to a first world locale desired by many expats to live in, that has also added an extra premium to the prices of flats. Although I own a private property, I am still holding on to my hdb flat for rental income. All 80+% of hdb owning population would like to see prices of our assets appreciate and to many hdb owners, the flat is their largest asset. Many people get the wrong notion that a flat should just be a roof over our heads and should not be used as an investment tool, but everyone who says that fails to realise that the hdb flat is indeed every flat owners' biggest investment. Who the hell would want to park a huge sum of their life savings in a property to only see prices stagnate? The prices of hdb flats have seen nothing yet compared to countries like hong kong. I applaud hdb for building public housing which is much to the envy of even hongkongers living in their private chicken coop condos. I am all for first world standard of living and if we want that, we must also be prepared to pay first world cost. All those rantings I read in the papers and the forum are from people who live in a well and know little about what is outside singapore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

This is such an irresponsible article. The fact that HDB moved on to "market-based" pricing was the starting point of the property-bubble, which ironically the garment is trying to prevent? Had the stat board stuck to its original mission of providing affordable housing (which all our parents did well), I guess there wouldn't be this craze about condos etc.

The starting pt was that HDB valuation came so high, that ppl started thinking, "why not pay ABIT more to get condo?". What was valuation based on in the first place? The artificial "benchmark" price the garment set in the first place when "valuation" was launched?

The point about "you can choose not to pay COV" or "HDB discloses information on COV for transacted deals" is irelevant. What this leads to in practice is that "oh its common to pay x and x COV to get this house".

Back to the same point, if HDB has its aim correct to give citizens a roof over their head, probably the price discrepancy between HDB and condos would really have great enuf to deter the bubble from forming in the first place. If the argument is about "willing buyer-willing seller", I would then say DPS/IAS, as well as the crazy prices and speculation are just "willing lenders/sellers, willing borrowers/buyers", so why stop them?

If we can recognise that bubbles is bad for everyone (although i view it more like a zero-sum game), I think the best action is to start from its roots, the HDB market.

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Sorry, typo error, my mother was working as a nurse, not my father.:D

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Originally Posted by Regulators

Back in the 1980s when Singapore was still a developing country, flats were going at only a few tens of thousands. As I had mentioned before, salaries then were going by the hundreds and not the thousands that people draw today. In the 80s when my father was working as a nurse, her take home pay was merely $400 and if you compare it to what a nurse gets today, it is easily 5 fold. Using that as a rough gauge, if you purchase a 4-room flat in the 80s for $60k, a 5-time increase would bring the price to around $300k which is about right. Not forgetting that we have moved from a developing country to a first world locale desired by many expats to live in, that has also added an extra premium to the prices of flats. Although I own a private property, I am still holding on to my hdb flat for rental income. All 80+% of hdb owning population would like to see prices of our assets appreciate and to many hdb owners, the flat is their largest asset. Many people get the wrong notion that a flat should just be a roof over our heads and should not be used as an investment tool, but everyone who says that fails to realise that the hdb flat is indeed every flat owners' biggest investment. Who the hell would want to park a huge sum of their life savings in a property to only see prices stagnate? The prices of hdb flats have seen nothing yet compared to countries like hong kong. I applaud hdb for building public housing which is much to the envy of even hongkongers living in their private chicken coop condos. I am all for first world standard of living and if we want that, we must also be prepared to pay first world cost. All those rantings I read in the papers and the forum are from people who live in a well and know little about what is outside singapore.

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That's correct ... those r really w-i-n-e-r-s (wine & wine only, not "win") :D

The fact that it is ppl's largest asset is because we spent so much money to buy them in the first place. If flats are still within reach probably all Singaporeans would have other forms of investment.

Like i wrote in another thread, why is it government's aim to make sure our assets rise in value? So that we can sell it at a later to get a large sum of money so that we can stay in old folks home? But what happens if you buy the flat using a lot of money, and at the end of it, your net proceeds is paltry? So to me the aim of "raising property values" just cannot sound adequate reasoning to me.

If you have x numbers of units and y number of residents (both of which are increasing), then obviously the buying and selling game is just a zero-sum game.

Appreciate your views on this, which probably i'm too constricted in seeing why HDB HAS to rise to current levels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Regulators

Back in the 1980s when Singapore was still a developing country, flats were going at only a few tens of thousands. As I had mentioned before, salaries then were going by the hundreds and not the thousands that people draw today. In the 80s when my father was working as a nurse, her take home pay was merely $400 and if you compare it to what a nurse gets today, it is easily 5 fold. Using that as a rough gauge, if you purchase a 4-room flat in the 80s for $60k, a 5-time increase would bring the price to around $300k which is about right. Not forgetting that we have moved from a developing country to a first world locale desired by many expats to live in, that has also added an extra premium to the prices of flats. Although I own a private property, I am still holding on to my hdb flat for rental income. All 80+% of hdb owning population would like to see prices of our assets appreciate and to many hdb owners, the flat is their largest asset. Many people get the wrong notion that a flat should just be a roof over our heads and should not be used as an investment tool, but everyone who says that fails to realise that the hdb flat is indeed every flat owners' biggest investment. Who the hell would want to park a huge sum of their life savings in a property to only see prices stagnate? The prices of hdb flats have seen nothing yet compared to countries like hong kong. I applaud hdb for building public housing which is much to the envy of even hongkongers living in their private chicken coop condos. I am all for first world standard of living and if we want that, we must also be prepared to pay first world cost. All those rantings I read in the papers and the forum are from people who live in a well and know little about what is outside singapore.

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Hi, we are all here to contribute our views (read F-O-R-U-M), and not here for name-calling. If i can put forth my views without calling ppl names, I cannot understand why you cant.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by cheerful

That's correct ... those r really w-i-n-e-r-s (wine & wine only, not "win") :D

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

Hi, we are all here to contribute our views (read F-O-R-U-M), and not here for name-calling. If i can put forth my views without calling ppl names, I cannot understand why you cant.

Cheers.

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Got too carried away by this hdb discussion .. I should have posted under another thread (http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=8300) Don't mean to call names here .. :o my apologies ...

when u are old and sick, and has no more money to pay for medical bills, u will have to sell ur house, and viola! because of the high valuation, u suddenly have alot more money, so you do not need to go beg the govt to give u money to bring to the coffin. it's a big SCAM!

:D :D

Anyone realise this?? If everyone is willing to pay COV, then perhaps the value of the flat has gone up at this time. Maybe the valuations are not keeping up to date?

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Originally Posted by echotrain

Anyone realise this?? If everyone is willing to pay COV, then perhaps the value of the flat has gone up at this time. Maybe the valuations are not keeping up to date?

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perhaps, that is the string government is pulling. to ensure that only willing buyer who are cash rich can afford the high COV flats. just my thoughts.

:2cents:

it is easy to put blames on government. Resale HDB are priced based on market rate. if there is a demand, price goes up. nothing to complain about.
If want to live in a prime location and can't afford. It is simply too bad, and that's it. Really can't blame the government.

And the fact is, government is building affordable new HDB around singapore even at current market rate (dont mentioned about DBSS which mostly sits in the prime location in matured estate, again it is willing seller, willing buyer). so that the young couple and lower income can afford a house of their own. To top it up, government develop the new estate surrounding to improve the property value. If this is still not good enough. I think it is simply human being are difficult to please.

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

The fact that it is ppl's largest asset is because we spent so much money to buy them in the first place. If flats are still within reach probably all Singaporeans would have other forms of investment.

Like i wrote in another thread, why is it government's aim to make sure our assets rise in value? So that we can sell it at a later to get a large sum of money so that we can stay in old folks home? But what happens if you buy the flat using a lot of money, and at the end of it, your net proceeds is paltry? So to me the aim of "raising property values" just cannot sound adequate reasoning to me.

If you have x numbers of units and y number of residents (both of which are increasing), then obviously the buying and selling game is just a zero-sum game.

Appreciate your views on this, which probably i'm too constricted in seeing why HDB HAS to rise to current levels.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

The fact that it is ppl's largest asset is because we spent so much money to buy them in the first place. If flats are still within reach probably all Singaporeans would have other forms of investment.

Like i wrote in another thread, why is it government's aim to make sure our assets rise in value? So that we can sell it at a later to get a large sum of money so that we can stay in old folks home? But what happens if you buy the flat using a lot of money, and at the end of it, your net proceeds is paltry? So to me the aim of "raising property values" just cannot sound adequate reasoning to me.

If you have x numbers of units and y number of residents (both of which are increasing), then obviously the buying and selling game is just a zero-sum game.

Appreciate your views on this, which probably i'm too constricted in seeing why HDB HAS to rise to current levels.

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Regulators is right.

If the government acts now and HDB prices fall, the entire social fabric will be pulled out of under the majority of the voting public. there will be riots in the streets. people will feel poorer, and spend less, prices will plunge and flat owners on market-rate bank loans may get top up calls from banks. the market will tank, jobs will be lost, and people will start to worry about day-today living. this is why inflation is always preferred to deflation

the whiners here, in ST Forum etc are a vocal minority. the same money 5 years ago will not get you what you think you should get today. such is inflation

http://i2.propertyguru.com.sg/images/ps/logo.png
Resale demand for HDB flats gets stronger
PropertyGuru.com.sg
Thursday, 24 September 2009

With 80% of the population in Singapore residing in HDB units, it is expected that the present unemployment and recession situation can significantly affect the HDB market. However, the current crisis seems not to harm the primary and the secondary HDM market.

The HDB resale prices increased in 2007 by 17.5% and in 2008 by 14.5% from the 2% rise in 2006. Based on the figures of the HDB, the market has quickly recovered in the second quarter of 2009 by 1.4% to a new peak of 140.2 points, although the HDB resale prices encounter in the first quarter of the year a minor drop of 0.8%. The resale prices have increased 38% over the last three-and-a-half years.

With 2.4% higher increase in the present resale prices of HDB flats compared to the peak in the fourth quarter of 1996, HDB homeowners who has purchased their units during those periods can actually earn more than what they have paid should they decide to put their flats on sale. Based on the second quarter data, price increase has tapered off to as low as 1.4% compared to 4% average quarterly increase in 2007 and 2008.
However, the rush in resale transactions of HDB flats, which has started in the second quarter of the year, has continued until the third quarter. The transactions made by the agents of ERA show 3% gain in the resale prices in the third quarter.

From the market peak in the fourth quarter of 2007, the average Cash-Over-Valuation (COV) for all types of flat has glided along with the weakening condition of the economy. As shown on the HDB statistics, the average COV for executive, 5-room, 4-room and 3-room flats have slid to $0 for executive and 5-room flats; and $5,000 for 4-room and 3-room flats in the second quarter of 2009 from $33,500 for executive flats, $26,000 for 5-room, $22,000 for 4-room and $18,900 for 3-room flat in the last quarter of 2007.

However, the rush in resale transactions in the second and third quarter has brought the average COV for all types of flat to five-digits again in August and July. The resale transactions of ERA show that in August, the average COV has reached to $19,000 for the 3-room flats and up to $20,000 for the larger types of flat.

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Originally Posted by gfoo

Regulators is right.

If the government acts now and HDB prices fall, the entire social fabric will be pulled out of under the majority of the voting public. there will be riots in the streets. people will feel poorer, and spend less, prices will plunge and flat owners on market-rate bank loans may get top up calls from banks. the market will tank, jobs will be lost, and people will start to worry about day-today living. this is why inflation is always preferred to deflation

the whiners here, in ST Forum etc are a vocal minority. the same money 5 years ago will not get you what you think you should get today. such is inflation

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Whether the vocal part of the group is minority or not remains to be seen. But isn't it true that too much "value" trapped in property is not "constructive" growth? I mean you could artificially inflate GDP growth through property, but is that the reason why govt has to sustain that level?

The way you sound seems like this is a "plot" to make ppl happy through a method which costs nothing (or in fact brings in revenue) to the govt? Is it for this psycological effect that we need to sustain HDB prices?

Not sure if i'm just not being typical here, but say i'm sitting on unrealized gain of 200K on my flat, I don't and wont feel "rich", because if i sell it, I'll be faced with the larger headahce of where to stay, or rather, having to prob spend an equivalent sum of money to get a new place? Perhaps i'm just thinking too much, or general Singaporeans are much smarter. I would still be glad to get a FLAT (not condo) at a decent price just for the shelter it brings over my head.

I feel that the complaints have been coming from people who are trying to flats in mature estates and do not have the means to.
So the only thing that they can do is shout loud loud and hope they can derail market direction.
And then hope that prices will fall to a level that they can afford.
But if prices really fall, do you think that there would be sellers?
These are HDB flats, not condos.

If these people are really serious about owning flats in mature estates, then work hard, earn enough and buy it.
Most of us are where we are today because of our hard work.
(Rome was not built in one day.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dunatos

I feel that the complaints have been coming from people who are trying to flats in mature estates and do not have the means to.
So the only thing that they can do is shout loud loud and hope they can derail market direction.
And then hope that prices will fall to a level that they can afford.
But if prices really fall, do you think that there would be sellers?
These are HDB flats, not condos.

If these people are really serious about owning flats in mature estates, then work hard, earn enough and buy it.
Most of us are where we are today because of our hard work.
(Rome was not built in one day.)

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agree... if cannot sell high for hdb, can't buy condo or bigger hdb unit, then why sell!!! we sell to make as much profit as possible. we work hard for our pay. wat you sow, is wat you will get in the end... nothing is for free or comes easy...

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

Whether the vocal part of the group is minority or not remains to be seen. But isn't it true that too much "value" trapped in property is not "constructive" growth? I mean you could artificially inflate GDP growth through property, but is that the reason why govt has to sustain that level?

The way you sound seems like this is a "plot" to make ppl happy through a method which costs nothing (or in fact brings in revenue) to the govt? Is it for this psycological effect that we need to sustain HDB prices?

Not sure if i'm just not being typical here, but say i'm sitting on unrealized gain of 200K on my flat, I don't and wont feel "rich", because if i sell it, I'll be faced with the larger headahce of where to stay, or rather, having to prob spend an equivalent sum of money to get a new place? Perhaps i'm just thinking too much, or general Singaporeans are much smarter. I would still be glad to get a FLAT (not condo) at a decent price just for the shelter it brings over my head.

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you're obviously well educated, and like the people in this forum, are an absolute minority. for every one forummer there are 1000 out there that are ecstatic their flat is sitting on 'profit'. some monetize it immediately via rentals and some via hdb's tailend purchase scheme, others look to it as a backup which will free up cash when they need it (via downgrade etc).

you r wrong, if pxs drop due to decreasing Valuatns, COV will shoot up n buyers will start complaining again. However if Hdb drops valuatns n tries to set a limit, all hdb hme owners will make noise n say that hdb is tryng to restrict free mkt. When mature estate hdb pxs goes up govt will hv a gd chance to offload new flats they build in future (surprised nobody saw that) n say that new flats r still attractv to buy. Cant believe a whole load of idiots bought into the gov plan to develop punggol. That place was dead is dead n will be dead in a long time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dunatos

I feel that the complaints have been coming from people who are trying to flats in mature estates and do not have the means to.
So the only thing that they can do is shout loud loud and hope they can derail market direction.
And then hope that prices will fall to a level that they can afford.
But if prices really fall, do you think that there would be sellers?
These are HDB flats, not condos.

If these people are really serious about owning flats in mature estates, then work hard, earn enough and buy it.
Most of us are where we are today because of our hard work.
(Rome was not built in one day.)

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Regulators

Cant believe a whole load of idiots bought into the gov plan to develop punggol. That place was dead is dead n will be dead in a long time.

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what can young couples do? they need a roof over their head and the only new cheap "affordable" flats are in punggol/sengkang. :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cloudy78

Not sure if i'm just not being typical here, but say i'm sitting on unrealized gain of 200K on my flat, I don't and wont feel "rich", because if i sell it, I'll be faced with the larger headahce of where to stay, or rather, having to prob spend an equivalent sum of money to get a new place? Perhaps i'm just thinking too much, or general Singaporeans are much smarter. I would still be glad to get a FLAT (not condo) at a decent price just for the shelter it brings over my head.

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finally we have someone who understand the grim situation of rising housing cost. yes ur HDB/condo can rise in values but think, if u sell it u will require more money to buy another.

of course this doesn't apply to u if u have more than 1 properties.

[ Cant believe a whole load of idiots bought into the gov plan to develop punggol. That place was dead is dead n will be dead in a long time.[/quote]

hello, if you have brought a hdb unit in punggol in early 2000, the price would have doubled by now! if punggol is dead, alot of places in singapore are dead, and singapore is not so big after all........ YOU IDIOT!:tongue3:

http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BFor...ry_434500.html

Sep 26, 2009

Harmful practices

'We are creating our own housing bubble.'


WEDNESDAY'S editorial, 'Watching HDB price behaviour, sensibly', suggested that the sudden spurt in private property prices since July has boosted HDB values.

That may be true but may not the reverse also be true, that is, that HDB values have also boosted private property prices?

In some HDB estates, the prices of four- and five-room flats have risen by $100,000 or more over the past six years. How

will this not affect property prices in general?

The HDB says its flats are highly subsidised, which I understand to be more a case of discount on commercial prices.

However, as there is no developer of public housing except the HDB, from where are such commercial prices drawn?

The editorial made another excellent point, urging buyers to exercise their democratic right not to pay a premium by considering non-prime townships.

Perhaps the democratic right would be better exercised by demanding that the HDB build more smaller flats so buyers are not saddled with a lifetime of debt.

Buying small and then upgrading to a bigger flat later when you can comfortably afford it should be a safer way for buyers.

At the rate that housing prices are moving, we are creating our own housing bubble.

Coupled with the culture of easy bank loans and credit cards, it makes thinking Singaporeans wonder why the Government is allowing these harmful practices, even as the United States government is trying all ways to dampen such practices.

Chia Hern Keng

when i was starting out in my career, i was stupid enough to buy punggol before 2000 when i was given a choice of other matured estates like bt merah. being young and very much trusting the govt's plan to develop the area, i bought punggol (like an idiot) . When i lived there, the place was pure crap, bad air from malaysian petrochemicals, almost no amenities and not even a fast food restaurant bothers to set up shop in punggol. i returned home to a ghost town after work everyday and life there was miserable, which is why i speak from experience. Making money, yes I did sell my hdb flat for almost double, but it doesnt change my perspective of that God foresaken place all these years. if i had bought a new flat in bt merah then, i could have made triple, not double. my friend also recently moved out of punggol much to her relief. new couples would have no choice but to contend themselves with places like punggol but if you have more money, why settle for that crap place? take a drive to that god-foresaken punggol plaza and you understand what i am talking about. you wont be able to find famous names like macdonald's, KFC, Ding Tai Feng etc in places like that coz such businesses know business is not sustainable in punggol. I have wisened up a lot about property since i started my business and i will not make the same mistake i have made before....

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Originally Posted by cutematilda

[ Cant believe a whole load of idiots bought into the gov plan to develop punggol. That place was dead is dead n will be dead in a long time.

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hello, if you have brought a hdb unit in punggol in early 2000, the price would have doubled by now! if punggol is dead, alot of places in singapore are dead, and singapore is not so big after all........ YOU IDIOT!:tongue3:[/quote]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cutematilda

[ Cant believe a whole load of idiots bought into the gov plan to develop punggol. That place was dead is dead n will be dead in a long time.

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hello, if you have brought a hdb unit in punggol in early 2000, the price would have doubled by now! if punggol is dead, alot of places in singapore are dead, and singapore is not so big after all........ YOU IDIOT!:tongue3:[/quote]

i agree singapore is not big

but that still doesnt change the fact that punggol is far away ..

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Originally Posted by dunatos

I feel that the complaints have been coming from people who are trying to flats in mature estates and do not have the means to.
So the only thing that they can do is shout loud loud and hope they can derail market direction.
And then hope that prices will fall to a level that they can afford.
But if prices really fall, do you think that there would be sellers?
These are HDB flats, not condos.

If these people are really serious about owning flats in mature estates, then work hard, earn enough and buy it.
Most of us are where we are today because of our hard work.
(Rome was not built in one day.)

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Exactly. I bought my first 5rm HDB in mature estate 6 yrs ago at 400k plus. Sold it recently with a nice capital gain. If the gov were to regulate the prices due to these 'loudhailers', I would rather retire here than sell it for 50k profit.

I think maybe it is a singaporean/chinese save-face thing. I am sure they can afford mature estates, but maybe a 3rm, not 'power' enough. Why need bigger if you only got 1 kid or no kids? If you got more kids, I would presume you have a higher income to support them. Need bigger space? Then look at your budget and find a location and space in accordance to that. But these people want big big pay less less in nice nice estates. Then complain price too high. If you are an average singaporean with a regular income, nothing is really out of reach if you are not asking for the sky.

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Originally Posted by Regulators

Back in the 1980s when Singapore was still a developing country, flats were going at only a few tens of thousands. As I had mentioned before, salaries then were going by the hundreds and not the thousands that people draw today. In the 80s when my father was working as a nurse, her take home pay was merely $400 and if you compare it to what a nurse gets today, it is easily 5 fold. Using that as a rough gauge, if you purchase a 4-room flat in the 80s for $60k, a 5-time increase would bring the price to around $300k which is about right. Not forgetting that we have moved from a developing country to a first world locale desired by many expats to live in, that has also added an extra premium to the prices of flats. Although I own a private property, I am still holding on to my hdb flat for rental income. All 80+% of hdb owning population would like to see prices of our assets appreciate and to many hdb owners, the flat is their largest asset. Many people get the wrong notion that a flat should just be a roof over our heads and should not be used as an investment tool, but everyone who says that fails to realise that the hdb flat is indeed every flat owners' biggest investment. Who the hell would want to park a huge sum of their life savings in a property to only see prices stagnate? The prices of hdb flats have seen nothing yet compared to countries like hong kong. I applaud hdb for building public housing which is much to the envy of even hongkongers living in their private chicken coop condos. I am all for first world standard of living and if we want that, we must also be prepared to pay first world cost. All those rantings I read in the papers and the forum are from people who live in a well and know little about what is outside singapore.

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When i started out with a HDB at Dover, my friends bought Sengkang and Punggol at half the price and i was the ridicule because of the price that i bought my place at. If any of you remembered, the price went from the high of 1997 to a very low of 2006. So i was definitely relieved that the price went up.

Even if people don't want to make money out of their HDB, i personally feel it is very heart breaking to see your place drop in value and having many people laughing at you behind your back. It wasn't so much the money or the ridicule but Regulator's right. If i put so much of my life and livelihood into the house, it is terrible to feel that you are a sucker.

That said, i'm also worried that the prices would rise much faster than the rise of income levels. Even today, Punggol new flats are costing much more.

Maybe our kids will have the full effect of this rising price problem.

Thank God there are sane people in this thread.