View Full Version : Expect false starts and slow recovery
http://www.straitstimes.com/Prime%2BNews/Story/STIStory_370464.html
April 30, 2009 Thursday
Expect false starts and slow recovery
Flu crisis and sub-par growth worldwide add to economic risk: MAS
By Fiona Chan
THE most intense phase of Singapore's recession may be over, but the economy is not going to bounce back to full health any time soon.
Instead, the recovery will be 'slow, gradual and fraught with uncertainties', unlike the quicker rebounds that followed previous downturns, said the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) yesterday.
The central bank said in its latest Macroeconomic Review, a twice-yearly survey of the economy, that the worst economic contractions probably took place in the last quarter of last year and the first quarter of this year. The economy logged record quarter-on-quarter declines in both quarters, of 16.4 per cent and 19.7 per cent respectively.
But the MAS stopped short of saying that the worst is over or that the recession has bottomed out. Private-sector economists say that although the worst is likely behind us, the economy could continue to contract in the months ahead, although the declines will not be as severe.
The MAS warned yesterday that despite recent signs of a slight increase in economic activity around the world, the major economies are still 'mired in an extended period of sub-par growth' and Singapore's growth is likely to remain 'below potential' as long as that lasts.
The new scare over swine flu, which has eerie echoes of the economically painful Sars period, has also added 'a new dimension of risk to the outlook', it said.
Job losses are expected to rise further across most sectors as companies adjust to the new lower levels of demand. The MAS expects that by the end of the year, net unemployment excluding construction will likely surpass that recorded in the 1998 Asian financial crisis and the 2001 global tech bust. Compared to those recessions, the current downturn is the deepest and one of the longest, and stands out in being more broad-based than previous contractions, it said.
It added that while some green shoots have emerged in the form of new manufacturing orders and stock market rallies, these could turn out to be 'false starts'.
The purchasing managers' indexes in Singapore and around the world have indicated that manufacturing will pick up slightly, but this could simply be due to inventory restocking rather than a return of true demand, said the MAS.
Any rises in Singapore's stock market are also more likely to be 'bear rallies' rather than sustained recoveries.
Singapore, with its high dependence on external markets, is among the nations worst hit by the global downturn, with the economy expected to contract by between 6 per cent and 9 per cent this year. But the same openness will 'enable it to pick up strongly when the global recovery finally gets under way', said the MAS.
Citigroup economist Kit Wei Zheng said yesterday that the MAS' comments on the economy held 'no big surprises'.
'One of the things that came out quite clearly is that the recovery is going to be very slow and the economy will be going through a period of sub-par growth spanning a wide range of industries,' he said.
'The bottom line is: the worst of the labour market may not be over yet and we could see more unemployment pain in the months to come.'
But Credit Suisse economist Joseph Tan noted that there are some 'surprise factors' that could change the outlook for the economy. The main one is China, which is proving surprisingly resilient in its manufacturing, investment and retail sales numbers, he said. That could potentially help economies in the region do better than expected.
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MAS statement is already quite neutral. Both MM and UOB's Wee think that we have another 2 years to suffer at least.
IMO, nobody can predict the future, the best future indicator is still the stock futures and the stock market itself. The stock market typically predicts what will happen 9-12 months from now. I have grown bullish after the Swine Flu outbreak actually bcos S&P500 absorbed this extreme negative news handsomely and is about to break the all important 875 resistance tonight. If 875 is broken and support is established, i won't be surprised to see the property market recovers in Q2 2009.
MAS statement is already quite neutral. Both MM and UOB's Wee think that we have another 2 years to suffer at least.
IMO, nobody can predict the future, the best future indicator is still the stock futures and the stock market itself. The stock market typically predicts what will happen 9-12 months from now. I have grown bullish after the Swine Flu outbreak actually bcos S&P500 absorbed this extreme negative news handsomely and is about to break the all important 875 resistance tonight. If 875 is broken and support is established, i won't be surprised to see the property market recovers in Q2 2009.
IMHO, consider S&P500 is around 1400 just a year ago, to break 875 tonight is not surprising at all. In fact, it had already been broken now.
I am not surprise at all if S&P break 875 but I will be AMAZE AND SURPRISE if property recover in Q2 2009 due to S&P breaking 875.
IMHO, consider S&P500 is around 1400 just a year ago, to break 875 tonight is not surprising at all. In fact, it had already been broken now.
I am not surprise at all if S&P break 875 but I will be AMAZE AND SURPRISE if property recover in Q2 2009 due to S&P breaking 875.
That depends on how you define "recovery". It could be V, U, L-shaped recovery. It is important that S&P500 breaks 875 soon basically this refects urgency of the demand and signal what kind of recovery is upcoming.
Allthepies
01-05-09, 12:44
I'm new and not sure what u all means by recovery. Does having a decreasing contraction means recovery (e.g. -9%, -6%, -3%) or recovery needs to be having a positive growth (e.g. +3%)?
I'm new and not sure what u all means by recovery. Does having a decreasing contraction means recovery (e.g. -9%, -6%, -3%) or recovery needs to be having a positive growth (e.g. +3%)?
True recovery is when there's +ve growth but prices will start going up (if not already) when sentiment changes. Property prices started softening well before the GDP and URA index peaked. alway remember that figures and data are out after the fact.
That depends on how you define "recovery". It could be V, U, L-shaped recovery. It is important that S&P500 breaks 875 soon basically this refects urgency of the demand and signal what kind of recovery is upcoming.
V, U or L are commonly apply for economic. With due respect, you are the one using the term "recovery" in the 1st context. Care to illustrate your definition of recovery?
V, U or L are commonly apply for economic. With due respect, you are the one using the term "recovery" in the 1st context. Care to illustrate your definition of recovery?
I am a technical chartist. Recovery to me means breaking key resistance level with strong volume. The problem in Singapore is that we do not have a real-time private residential index. URA only release data every quarter so it is very hard for chartist to predict where the market is going. Two better indicators may be is the psf prices of new properties and the property stocks in Singapore. Recently, psf prices of new mass/mid market condos are inching up & property stocks start to outperform the overall STI, to me, this is a sign of recovery.
I am a technical chartist. Recovery to me means breaking key resistance level with strong volume. The problem in Singapore is that we do not have a real-time private residential index. URA only release data every quarter so it is very hard for chartist to predict where the market is going. Two better indicators may be is the psf prices of new properties and the property stocks in Singapore. Recently, psf prices of new mass/mid market condos are inching up & property stocks start to outperform the overall STI, to me, this is a sign of recovery.
Oh.. Technical chartist? So in security term is comparable to TA? Technical Analysis?
Ok, I think you will agree that recovery took place only after a bottom out right? We just have the latest ura result in mid April illustrating a -14.7% in Q109 from Q408 and this was higher than earlier -6.7%.
So here Mr Kiat is suggesting a bottoming had already occur when 1st month of Q209 is just merely over with 4 arguements;
1. Volume, breaking key resistence level? IF VOLUME of negative equity bail out could translate to recovery, wow.. you are better than Obama.
2. S&P over 875? With stress result not even out? + another tons of problems..
3. PSF price of developer sale? When a marginally increase was amplified yet Holland 20units defaulter was conveniently brush away? When advertisment keep splashing across papers/TV every now and then?
4. Counters and STI? This is the best. A year ago, STI was well over 3000 and now in the 1800 range, so against residential index, we should see Double Bay in proportional reduce to 400+psf range but did we this? Nope. So if downward trend could not be measure in proportion basis what make one think upward trend could be? And to supplement, recent BT articulate sustainable findings of residential index against STI which only illustrate bottom out no where near.
Wa.. Your TA could point to recovery so fast huh? Good huh.. Care to share are you with any finance house? Are your analysis pointing at STI 4500 NOW a year back?
Oh.. Technical chartist? So in security term is comparable to TA? Technical Analysis?
Ok, I think you will agree that recovery took place only after a bottom out right? We just have the latest ura result in mid April illustrating a -14.7% in Q109 from Q408 and this was higher than earlier -6.7%.
So here Mr Kiat is suggesting a bottoming had already occur when 1st month of Q209 is just merely over with 4 arguements;
1. Volume, breaking key resistence level? IF VOLUME of negative equity bail out could translate to recovery, wow.. you are better than Obama.
2. S&P over 875? With stress result not even out? + another tons of problems..
3. PSF price of developer sale? When a marginally increase was amplified yet Holland 20units defaulter was conveniently brush away? When advertisment keep splashing across papers/TV every now and then?
4. Counters and STI? This is the best. A year ago, STI was well over 3000 and now in the 1800 range, so against residential index, we should see Double Bay in proportional reduce to 400+psf range but did we this? Nope. So if downward trend could not be measure in proportion basis what make one think upward trend could be? And to supplement, recent BT articulate sustainable findings of residential index against STI which only illustrate bottom out no where near.
Wa.. Your TA could point to recovery so fast huh? Good huh.. Care to share are you with any finance house? Are your analysis pointing at STI 4500 NOW a year back?
Well, one cup of coffee was 60/70cents 5 years ago, now is 80/90cents, one pack of rice was $8 now $13. Do you expect condo to be selling at 400+psf ?? What was your salary at 2002/2003 compared to now? Go and figure out.
Don't be so harsh on Mr Kiat, he is a chartist, he reads the charts, the charts shows signs of recovery, and the charts sometimes gives false signals. charts needs to have confirmation which only time will tell.:)
Oh.. Technical chartist? So in security term is comparable to TA? Technical Analysis?
Ok, I think you will agree that recovery took place only after a bottom out right? We just have the latest ura result in mid April illustrating a -14.7% in Q109 from Q408 and this was higher than earlier -6.7%.
So here Mr Kiat is suggesting a bottoming had already occur when 1st month of Q209 is just merely over with 4 arguements;
1. Volume, breaking key resistence level? IF VOLUME of negative equity bail out could translate to recovery, wow.. you are better than Obama.
2. S&P over 875? With stress result not even out? + another tons of problems..
3. PSF price of developer sale? When a marginally increase was amplified yet Holland 20units defaulter was conveniently brush away? When advertisment keep splashing across papers/TV every now and then?
4. Counters and STI? This is the best. A year ago, STI was well over 3000 and now in the 1800 range, so against residential index, we should see Double Bay in proportional reduce to 400+psf range but did we this? Nope. So if downward trend could not be measure in proportion basis what make one think upward trend could be? And to supplement, recent BT articulate sustainable findings of residential index against STI which only illustrate bottom out no where near.
Wa.. Your TA could point to recovery so fast huh? Good huh.. Care to share are you with any finance house? Are your analysis pointing at STI 4500 NOW a year back?
I agree with the coffee, rice and condo. But salary, not necessary
Well, one cup of coffee was 60/70cents 5 years ago, now is 80/90cents, one pack of rice was $8 now $13. Do you expect condo to be selling at 400+psf ?? What was your salary at 2002/2003 compared to now? Go and figure out.
Well, one cup of coffee was 60/70cents 5 years ago, now is 80/90cents, one pack of rice was $8 now $13. Do you expect condo to be selling at 400+psf ?? What was your salary at 2002/2003 compared to now? Go and figure out.
Hey Kiat.. What talking you?
I'm saying STI at only ONE YEAR ago and proportional measure hold no bearing because Double Bay is NOT selling at 400+psf. My goodness, you are totally out of point.
May I suggest you read twice or thrice on my content/reply to make up your lack of apprehension skill? And reply in a better, structure way?
And don't lose your cool manz, is it about the Double Bay? I deliberately use it as an example if you know what I mean.. :p
Wa.. hahaha..
Don't be so harsh on Mr Kiat, he is a chartist, he reads the charts, the charts shows signs of recovery, and the charts sometimes gives false signals. charts needs to have confirmation which only time will tell.:)
Exactly, so far the market continues to prove the bulls correct, brushing aside all kinds of negative news. Today will be another key day, if S&P500 can close above 875 for a second day, it is confirmed. Taking cue from Dow futures, STI and HSI are now breaking resistance, HSI will probably close up 1000 points today if US futures continue to go up.
errr if you follow the replies in this thread, it is apple3 who's losing his/her cool and became emo. Kiat replies are detached and neutral. So apple3 what's your agenda?
errr if you follow the replies in this thread, it is apple3 who's losing his/her cool and became emo. Kiat replies are detached and neutral. So apple3 what's your agenda?
hmm.. care to enlighten my area of "uncoolness"?
emo? Well, how does Kiat coffee & tea associate with my articulation?
You also never read, did you?
Kiat neutral? How about clicking his nick and read some/all of his posts?
My agenda? Nah. Just like to comment on one-sided thread. If he post like Mr Funny who sharing all kind of non-bias & un-marginalise, bullish & bearish public release news, I will say thank you and a fine gentleman indeed.
So Mr Orange, obviously you are not reading well. Whats your agenda then? Start a flame? :p
Exactly, so far the market continues to prove the bulls correct, brushing aside all kinds of negative news. Today will be another key day, if S&P500 can close above 875 for a second day, it is confirmed. Taking cue from Dow futures, STI and HSI are now breaking resistance, HSI will probably close up 1000 points today if US futures continue to go up.
Well, I would said your grounds still weaks if not irrational, so to speak.
So Q209 property will bottom out and recover if tonite S&P close 875 for a second day?
I will try to dig this thread out in mid July when URA release Q209 result. :p
Well, I would said your grounds still weaks if not irrational, so to speak.
So Q209 property will bottom out and recover if tonite S&P close 875 for a second day?
I will try to dig this thread out in mid July when URA release Q209 result. :p
Nothing is 100% sure ... it is about probability, see my long term private residential chart in One Amber thread, 140 is indeed a good entry point.
A few more pieces of bullish signals:
- Terraced houses built by Fragrance land SOLD OUT in last 2 weeks in Sembawang
- Verdure@Holland Road @ 1350psf, almost SOLD OUT
- Thomson The Arte @ 900-1000psf, SOLD OUT for City view facing
- Sales for 3-b/4bedroom mass market condos accelerates in the past 2 weeks, 2-bedroom units all SOLD OUT
- CityDev share price suddenly shoots up from $6+ to $7.2 as of now in 2 days with very high volume
that Sembawang 99LH terraces is a mystery to me..
how come people are willing to pay that much for that ulu place?
Nothing is 100% sure ... it is about probability, see my long term private residential chart in One Amber thread, 140 is indeed a good entry point.
A few more pieces of bullish signals:
- Terraced houses built by Fragrance land SOLD OUT in last 2 weeks in Sembawang
- Verdure@Holland Road @ 1350psf, almost SOLD OUT
- Thomson The Arte @ 900-1000psf, SOLD OUT for City view facing
- Sales for 3-b/4bedroom mass market condos accelerates in the past 2 weeks, 2-bedroom units all SOLD OUT
- CityDev share price suddenly shoots up from $6+ to $7.2 as of now in 2 days with very high volume
Nothing is for sure, I agree on this.
But what I do not understand is why your illustration is always one-sided on the bullish side? Please don't mistaken, I pro on no side.
And your selection of words is the most... ermmm..
"Sold out for City View facing?"?
"Almost sold-out"?
"2 Bedder sold out"?
How about;
Units still available for Verdure and Arte and developer find the market still not ripe to launch more units.. Or
2 bedders with the lower absolute price and limited units in most project tend to be the first to sold out,etc.
And how about those tons of development still "un-sold out"?
Same right? Why you always amplified on bullish context?
Are you a property agent or something close?
PS: Here you go again.. All components of STI are moving upward and yet you pinpoint CityDev. As of now 4.30pm+, the following index stocks are on double digits gain;
CityDev 12.04%
DBS 11.58%
F&N 11.83%
Olam 13.56%
OCBC 10.54%
SembMarine 14.22%
SGX 11.32%
UOB 11.30%
See? Get what I mean? CityDev share price DON'T suddenly shoots up. Across the board all are moving upward and yet you SINGLE out CityDev? Come on.. the bigger gainer on industry are banking for godsake..
Nothing is for sure, I agree on this.
But what I do not understand is why your illustration is always one-sided on the bullish side? Please don't mistaken, I pro on no side.
And your selection of words is the most... ermmm..
"Sold out for City View facing?"?
"Almost sold-out"?
"2 Bedder sold out"?
How about;
Units still available for Verdure and Arte and developer find the market still not ripe to launch more units.. Or
2 bedders with the lower absolute price and limited units in most project tend to be the first to sold out,etc.
And how about those tons of development still "un-sold out"?
Same right? Why you always amplified on bullish context?
Are you a property agent or something close?
PS: Here you go again.. All components of STI are moving upward and yet you pinpoint CityDev. As of now 4.30pm+, the following index stocks are on double digits gain;
CityDev 12.04%
DBS 11.58%
F&N 11.83%
Olam 13.56%
OCBC 10.54%
SembMarine 14.22%
SGX 11.32%
UOB 11.30%
See? Get what I mean? CityDev share price DON'T suddenly shoots up. Across the board all are moving upward and yet you SINGLE out CityDev? Come on.. the bigger gainer on industry are banking for godsake..
I singled out CityDev bcos we are in a property forum mah. Property stock price is a leading indicator of property market health. Amplify bullish context, may be a little as I have vested interest in properties. But more importantly, technical chartist analyzes chart and tries to predict the probability of upside/downside. And the fact is that the stock market brushes aside all bad news like Swine Flu and Citi/BAC requirement to raise capital and breaking key resistance level today with strong volume. This reflects an urgency to buy and buy a lot (volume) in a hurry. Since property stocks are recovering fast, there is then a high chance that the support of private residential index at 140 will hold and point to a recovery in Q2 2009.
How URA calculate their property index? Somehow, I find that their index always lack market by up to 3 months or more! Say for example, the property price is already down by 10% as of today, but the URA property price index only shows the price decrease 3 months or more later. As such, most likely Q2 index may drop even if physical property price increases now (which will only translates to URA property index increase in Q3).
I singled out CityDev bcos we are in a property forum mah. Property stock price is a leading indicator of property market health. Amplify bullish context, may be a little as I have vested interest in properties. But more importantly, technical chartist analyzes chart and tries to predict the probability of upside/downside. And the fact is that the stock market brushes aside all bad news like Swine Flu and Citi/BAC requirement to raise capital and breaking key resistance level today with strong volume. This reflects an urgency to buy and buy a lot (volume) in a hurry. Since property stocks are recovering fast, there is then a high chance that the support of private residential index at 140 will hold and point to a recovery in Q2 2009.
agree with apple3 on Jitkiat's comments.
back to demand and supply.
zoom down into demand and supply by category.
and role of banks and valuers in the whole equation.
investors/owner occupied plays another part in the equation. perpectual rental income affect selling price
prices in prime district....D9 $1900psf dropped to $1200psf but psf in D15 calling for $1000psf
+ stock market (positively corelated to property prices)
= outlook for property market.
logically, it is the demand and supply for everything, propery, stocks etc. but all alot of people are followers ( herd mentallity, one run all run. one hide all hide).
Take property for example, when no one buys, all don't buy, all wait and see. When one buys, all rush in to buy.
Today STI up 100+ points, cos there are signs of recovery. SIGNS only.
agree with apple3 on Jitkiat's comments.
back to demand and supply.
zoom down into demand and supply by category.
and role of banks and valuers in the whole equation.
investors/owner occupied plays another part in the equation. perpectual rental income affect selling price
prices in prime district....D9 $1900psf dropped to $1200psf but psf in D15 calling for $1000psf
+ stock market (positively corelated to property prices)
= outlook for property market.
Always like that. If tomorrow STI up again, then many will CHEONGgggg IN ah!
logically, it is the demand and supply for everything, propery, stocks etc. but all alot of people are followers ( herd mentallity, one run all run. one hide all hide).
Take property for example, when no one buys, all don't buy, all wait and see. When one buys, all rush in to buy.
Today STI up 100+ points, cos there are signs of recovery. SIGNS only.
Foremost, maybe we could keep this exchange be "dynamic" & constructive yet no hard feeling. K? coolz.
I singled out CityDev bcos we are in a property forum mah.
Then why not Capitaland, Capitamall & HKLand + another 2 diverse SPH & F&N? They are also index stock like Citydev in STI. Why? Because City had a high double gain? or Capitaland underperform?
Property stock price is a leading indicator of property market health.
This is debatable. But, even if it an indicator, the react time is widely accepted to be 6mths by industry standard. Even analysis in BT said 9mths. And you are talking abt Q209, now?
technical chartist analyzes chart and tries to predict the probability of upside/downside
Precisely I'm trying to emphasize that since STI drop from 3300 a year back to now 2000 and property price did NOT correct downward proportionly, how could you then chart upward by proportion against STI or even S&P?? Goodness! You never answer this question yet bring kopi and tea out.. :p
And the fact is that the stock market brushes aside all bad news like Swine Flu and Citi/BAC requirement to raise capital and breaking key resistance level today with strong volume.
It double edge sword my friend. The fact that the market is brushing away the bad elements and YET there are little ground to sustain the rally is causing some nerves tweaking. We may be seeing punters and not investors back in the market.
Amplify bullish context, may be a little as I have vested interest in properties.
Nope. You "glorify" bull a lot.. which is more than a little but less than too much. Expecially after you committed DB. I have covered most of your threads before I launch this crusade.
I mean it alright to be bullish especially if so much effort, time and research had been conducted in search of your dream home. Which I think by now you are a Simei prop expert and I should have congrat you of upgrading from the 85% with a nice built-up by UOL, so to speak. But, I don't see the point of zooming in selective context and amplify it. A sin call "mis-leding" tend to commit in the process.
Coolz.. :p
agree with apple3 on Jitkiat's comments.
back to demand and supply.
zoom down into demand and supply by category.
and role of banks and valuers in the whole equation.
investors/owner occupied plays another part in the equation. perpectual rental income affect selling price
prices in prime district....D9 $1900psf dropped to $1200psf but psf in D15 calling for $1000psf
+ stock market (positively corelated to property prices)
= outlook for property market.
Wa.. you compact everything huh.. :)
Some smaller and less cap developer who commit line of credit from bank base on earlier business plan and projection may face problem with builder like Lian Beng/china construct. Sigh.. long story, just to highlight there are more to it.
How URA calculate their property index? Somehow, I find that their index always lack market by up to 3 months or more! Say for example, the property price is already down by 10% as of today, but the URA property price index only shows the price decrease 3 months or more later. As such, most likely Q2 index may drop even if physical property price increases now (which will only translates to URA property index increase in Q3).
They have to lack behind. Because they are using factual statistic for illustration.
Yes...herd mentality is always the driver. but what differentiate between a winner and a loser in any market.
Agree that it is the same for any asset - stocks, properties, bonds....other investment assets
Swine flu under control? yes from action of the health ministry in most countries.
banks - still lending. yes but lower financing margin and selective, i.e. forcing spending and differentiating between investors and owners. ask any bank whether they are prepared to fund property investors/developers. Slim chances. Foreign investors coming in - attractive returns but they also have their own bankers who are concerned about value of their investments depreciating further, esp. when they are investing abroad.
valuer - giving the same value as selling price. Nope. they do desktop valuation, based on historical transacted prices. Otherwise, they wont be running business of valuation but athe business of fortune telling/property investors.
jobs are increasing and retrenchment rate is low. any lay man will be able to tell from mushrooming of hawker stalls and retail sales
your neighbors buying new cars. yes because COE lowest over the years and seen the bottomline.
Consumer wise on spending with savings culture as always
logically, it is the demand and supply for everything, propery, stocks etc. but all alot of people are followers ( herd mentallity, one run all run. one hide all hide).
Take property for example, when no one buys, all don't buy, all wait and see. When one buys, all rush in to buy.
Today STI up 100+ points, cos there are signs of recovery. SIGNS only.
then you take buffet advises loh;
Fear when others is Greedy, And Greedy when others Fear.
But personally I like this one by Rich Daddy Poor Daddy;
something like dat;
The Rich buy and acquire Asset.
The Poor only have expenditure.
The Middle-Income buy Liability thinking they are Asset.
:p
My understanding of the 3:
The Rich buy and acquire Asset. - Buy Properties.
The Poor only have expenditure. - Spend on all sort of branded goods & restaurants etc, then say each month must spend so much money otherwise cannot survive in Singapore because living expenses too high blah blah (create excuses for themselves?).
The Middle-Income buy Liability thinking they are Asset. - Buy branded cars & structured deposits? :doh:
then you take buffet advises loh;
Fear when others is Greedy, And Greedy when others Fear.
But personally I like this one by Rich Daddy Poor Daddy;
something like dat;
The Rich buy and acquire Asset.
The Poor only have expenditure.
The Middle-Income buy Liability thinking they are Asset.
:p
since there's some mention of books (Rich Dad Poor dad) here, in these volatile times, there's quite a number of times that I re-read the book "Foolded By Randomness". Have just purchased "The Black Swan" by the same author, believe that it will be as enlightening as his previous book.
My understanding of the 3:
The Rich buy and acquire Asset. - Buy Properties.
The Poor only have expenditure. - Spend on all sort of branded goods & restaurants etc, then say each month must spend so much money otherwise cannot survive in Singapore because living expenses too high blah blah (create excuses for themselves?).
The Middle-Income buy Liability thinking they are Asset. - Buy branded cars & structured deposits? :doh:
Don't quite agree on this..
Some poor are really very bad-off and need some serious help. As well as some "hamburgers" with 2 aged parent + 2 young kid and wife sick cannot work.
And some you don't see them in this forum cause they only could wish their children could live well and get a condo, their concern is the PUB bill that had already sent the pink note.
:scared-2:
I do follow buffet advice, made a handsome profit (properties, stocks and commodities) from 2002 to date.
I also 100% agree with rich dad poor dad on the 3 you mentioned.
then you take buffet advises loh;
Fear when others is Greedy, And Greedy when others Fear.
But personally I like this one by Rich Daddy Poor Daddy;
something like dat;
The Rich buy and acquire Asset.
The Poor only have expenditure.
The Middle-Income buy Liability thinking they are Asset.
:p
since there's some mention of books (Rich Dad Poor dad) here, in these volatile times, there's quite a number of times that I re-read the book "Foolded By Randomness". Have just purchased "The Black Swan" by the same author, believe that it will be as enlightening as his previous book.
I will try to get my hand on it.
now I know how your nick came by.
as for mine.. I study no high so 1st day in school they taught A for Apple.. so you see I ermm.. :p
my major then was management. but gave up on reading more of such books as authors and we all differ in cultures. but one thing for sure, the authors made fame and $$ from these books.
advices are free and no harm for anyone to throw in theirs.
i remember one incident when one relative asked me for advice on property purchase not too long after my graduation......
and aiyo yo...guess what. i believe i shouldnt have done so. i learnt that ultimately the person investing or buying for own stay is the one making the final call.
When someone asks for advice for purchase of stocks or property, they would have decided deep down inside but wanted reaffirmation/support.
for all out there, see the market by yourself and feel the market on your own and you will make the right decision. jedi master aaaahhhhhhhhh
That why the rich is getting richer, the poor is getting poorer.
And i understand your view point, most of their jobs are taken over by foreigners, cos their salary is lower than singaporeans.
Don't quite agree on this..
Some poor are really very bad-off and need some serious help. As well as some "hamburgers" with 2 aged parent + 2 young kid and wife sick cannot work.
And some you don't see them in this forum cause they only could wish their children could live well and get a condo, their concern is the PUB bill that had already sent the pink note.
:scared-2:
I do follow buffet advice, made a handsome profit (properties, stocks and commodities) from 2002 to date.
I also 100% agree with rich dad poor dad on the 3 you mentioned.
Good for you.. you lucky smart ass...
Care to spend some penny for the poor?
#Rule 1. Never tell ppl you make $$$... hahahhahha.. :p
#rule 1 noted. will keep in mind
Good for you.. you lucky smart ass...
Care to spend some penny for the poor?
#Rule 1. Never tell ppl you make $$$... hahahhahha.. :p
Foremost, maybe we could keep this exchange be "dynamic" & constructive yet no hard feeling. K? coolz.
I singled out CityDev bcos we are in a property forum mah.
Then why not Capitaland, Capitamall & HKLand + another 2 diverse SPH & F&N? They are also index stock like Citydev in STI. Why? Because City had a high double gain? or Capitaland underperform?
[JK] I think Capitaland, UOL and CityDev all are breaking resistance with good volume. It is fair to just pick one of them as the representative for illustration.
Property stock price is a leading indicator of property market health.
This is debatable. But, even if it an indicator, the react time is widely accepted to be 6mths by industry standard. Even analysis in BT said 9mths. And you are talking abt Q209, now?
[JK] Well, if you wait for another 6mths and you wait till October for Q3 data to be out, the Q32009 data did confirm a recovery say the private residential index is at 150, STI is probably at 2600 and most property stocks would have recovered another 20%. What will be the selling price of property that you are targetting at that time? What is the chance that it is lower compared to now and are you sure you are still able to get the unit that you want? Therefore, you must buy a property when a bottom in stock market is confirmed not when the private residential index tells you so.
technical chartist analyzes chart and tries to predict the probability of upside/downside
Precisely I'm trying to emphasize that since STI drop from 3300 a year back to now 2000 and property price did NOT correct downward proportionly, how could you then chart upward by proportion against STI or even S&P?? Goodness! You never answer this question yet bring kopi and tea out.. :p
[JK] If u look at the chart for high-end condos, it does track the STI in proportion. For mid-end/mass-market condo, it is to a lesser degree, go up less so come down less. Again, when STI broke 1950 today, it does confirm to a high probability that the worst is over. To me, this is the best time to buy a property. You can sit on the sidelines and hope that the worst is yet to come ... but what is the probability? Of course anything can happen, the Swine flu virus can suddenly mutate and kill half of Singaporeans then propery index will crash ...
And the fact is that the stock market brushes aside all bad news like Swine Flu and Citi/BAC requirement to raise capital and breaking key resistance level today with strong volume.
It double edge sword my friend. The fact that the market is brushing away the bad elements and YET there are little ground to sustain the rally is causing some nerves tweaking. We may be seeing punters and not investors back in the market.
[JK] Little ground? That is because the buyers know something that the public don't know. Very soon you will find out why the market keeps going up.
Amplify bullish context, may be a little as I have vested interest in properties.
Nope. You "glorify" bull a lot.. which is more than a little but less than too much. Expecially after you committed DB. I have covered most of your threads before I launch this crusade.
I mean it alright to be bullish especially if so much effort, time and research had been conducted in search of your dream home. Which I think by now you are a Simei prop expert and I should have congrat you of upgrading from the 85% with a nice built-up by UOL, so to speak. But, I don't see the point of zooming in selective context and amplify it. A sin call "mis-leding" tend to commit in the process.
Coolz.. :p
[JK] Isn't it equally misleading to ask people who can afford a property to "wait" for another 6 months?
my major then was management. but gave up on reading more of such books as authors and we all differ in cultures. but one thing for sure, the authors made fame and $$ from these books.
advices are free and no harm for anyone to throw in theirs.
i remember one incident when one relative asked me for advice on property purchase not too long after my graduation......
and aiyo yo...guess what. i believe i shouldnt have done so. i learnt that ultimately the person investing or buying for own stay is the one making the final call.
When someone asks for advice for purchase of stocks or property, they would have decided deep down inside but wanted reaffirmation/support.
for all out there, see the market by yourself and feel the market on your own and you will make the right decision. jedi master aaaahhhhhhhhh
I know what you mean and well.. don't bother too much.
Recently someone ask me about property, as follow;
Richie: I want buy property how?
Apple3: Hold on if for investment.
Richie: If buy for mistress and just hope for capital appreciation when she broke off with me?
Apple3: Then since you rich so just buy what you like loh.
Richie: North East how?
Apple3: Good! Got Pungol Waterway
Richie: North?
Apple3: Good! Got Sport Complex.
Richie: West?
Apple3: Good! Got Jurong Destrict Development.
Richie: South?
Apple3: Good! Got IR.
Richie: East?
Apple3: Good! Got new university.
Richie: Central?
Apple3: Good! Never die district.. Buy lah.. Just buy everythings.. Everything got development one.. Buy while you havent kick the bucket.
:p
spare one two pennies for this poor student..
one of my good buddies was cursing this seller three months ago when the seller signed the option and then wanted to back out....and find all excuses in option
Buddy fed up and agree to requests and seller still wants to back out.
buddy is contemplating to take this seller to court. Some ppl advised him that its not worth it...some told him that seller need to be taught a lesson so not to play out future buyers.
buddy said that standard option gives away all the rights of buyers. BEWARE. at the end of the day, just be reasonable in request unless the seller is all out to con my buddy. get lawyer in so that we are not pound foolish...btw im not a lawyer
spare one two pennies for this poor student..
one of my good buddies was cursing this seller three months ago when the seller signed the option and then wanted to back out....and find all excuses in option
Buddy fed up and agree to requests and seller still wants to back out.
buddy is contemplating to take this seller to court. Some ppl advised him that its not worth it...some told him that seller need to be taught a lesson so not to play out future buyers.
buddy said that standard option gives away all the rights of buyers. BEWARE. at the end of the day, just be reasonable in request unless the seller is all out to con my buddy. get lawyer in so that we are not pound foolish...btw im not a lawyer
Common.
Has the cheque from Buyer to Seller for exercising the OTP had been bank in within 14 days starting from the date stating on OPT?
If No. Difficult.
If Yes. Difficult to lose. Get a similar property and ask the same lawyer to make claim on the differences/margin+legal. 1st letter around $250 or can free also. If you want I can pass you contact.
PS: Btw, if I'm your buddy I go all the way. You dont serve writ immediately. Got legal letter, abritation.. etc. Even go court also nvm.
[JK] Isn't it equally misleading to ask people who can afford a property to "wait" for another 6 months?
I could only guess what you trying to say;
You see;
Analysis in BT take historical + track record < Past. On Overall Context.
Your charting take projection + possibility < Future. On Selective Context.
See the differences?
The seller issue the option to purchase to the buyer. What kind of excuses is the seller faulting in the option?
Otion to purchase gives the buyer the right to buy, if the option is not exercise, the buyer forfeit the deposit. Not the other way round.
spare one two pennies for this poor student..
one of my good buddies was cursing this seller three months ago when the seller signed the option and then wanted to back out....and find all excuses in option
Buddy fed up and agree to requests and seller still wants to back out.
buddy is contemplating to take this seller to court. Some ppl advised him that its not worth it...some told him that seller need to be taught a lesson so not to play out future buyers.
buddy said that standard option gives away all the rights of buyers. BEWARE. at the end of the day, just be reasonable in request unless the seller is all out to con my buddy. get lawyer in so that we are not pound foolish...btw im not a lawyer
The seller issue the option to purchase to the buyer. What kind of excuses is the seller faulting in the option?
Otion to purchase gives the buyer the right to buy, if the option is not exercise, the buyer forfeit the deposit. Not the other way round.
seller quoting that he cant perform this and that under option. asked my buddy to agree to accept changes and my buddy ok'd.
deposit is with seller....so if he wants to back out, he just need to return the deposit to my buddy, right?
seller quoting that he cant perform this and that under option. asked my buddy to agree to accept changes and my buddy ok'd.
deposit is with seller....so if he wants to back out, he just need to return the deposit to my buddy, right?
once the option signed by the seller... and option fees bank in... consider the seller is bound by the option to sell....
so your buddy no need to comply with anything the seller said.... that is all BS....
In the option, there is the seller and buyer names, the property address, the selling price, the option deposit amount, the exercise date, the seller lawyers. what can't the seller perform???
You mean after 3 months, the cheque is still with seller!
By the way, what kind of property is this, private or HDB.
Any agent involve?
seller quoting that he cant perform this and that under option. asked my buddy to agree to accept changes and my buddy ok'd.
deposit is with seller....so if he wants to back out, he just need to return the deposit to my buddy, right?
In the option, there is the seller and buyer names, the property address, the selling price, the option deposit amount, the exercise date, the seller lawyers. what can't the seller perform???
You mean after 3 months, the cheque is still with seller!
By the way, what kind of property is this, private or HDB.
Any agent involve?
Yup. I miss that piece out. Where the damm agent?
Nowsaday it seems to me agent are transparent.
once the option signed by the seller... and option fees bank in... consider the seller is bound by the option to sell....
so your buddy no need to comply with anything the seller said.... that is all BS....
thanks to all...my buddy being naive, agreed to all his requests to amend as he just want the property. looks like there's a lot of people who take others for a ride...a long ride.
and he has not taken a look at other unit (as mentioned by apple3) within the same project. anyway most people would just suffer in silence and move on. i hope sellers out there are honorable. the seller even used his agent to speak to my buddy. 1% banked in by seller. and 4% with his lawyers...and seller still wants to amend some clauses. my buddy is strugglng hard to speed up drawdown as seller asked my buddy to cut short the completion time and my buddy agreed.....
Yup. I miss that piece out. Where the damm agent?
Nowsaday it seems to me agent are transparent.
only one agent...seller's agent.
The seller's agent talking to your bubby is normal, cos agent representing seller.
You were saying 1% banked in, 4% with his lawyer, (your bubby's lawyer, right). The sale and purchase agreement has been signed. I assume this is a private property. What the hell is the lawyer doing?
I assume your buddy also has a bank loan, who is going to bear the cancallation of loan?
Shorter completion is normal, as long both parties agreed to it and the lawyers say can be completed in that time frame.
Since you buddy wants that property, go all the way for it. Tell to his lawyer to complete the sale
thanks to all...my buddy being naive, agreed to all his requests to amend as he just want the property. looks like there's a lot of people who take others for a ride...a long ride.
and he has not taken a look at other unit (as mentioned by apple3) within the same project. anyway most people would just suffer in silence and move on. i hope sellers out there are honorable. the seller even used his agent to speak to my buddy. 1% banked in by seller. and 4% with his lawyers...and seller still wants to amend some clauses. my buddy is strugglng hard to speed up drawdown as seller asked my buddy to cut short the completion time and my buddy agreed.....
The seller's agent talking to your bubby is normal, cos agent representing seller.
You were saying 1% banked in, 4% with his lawyer, (your bubby's lawyer, right). The sale and purchase agreement has been signed. I assume this is a private property. What the hell is the lawyer doing?
I assume your buddy also has a bank loan, who is going to bear the cancallation of loan?
Shorter completion is normal, as long both parties agreed to it and the lawyers say can be completed in that time frame.
Since you buddy wants that property, go all the way for it. Tell to his lawyer to complete the sale
looks like i see a lot of experienced forum members
Sorry, this is a completed private property
4% with seller's lawyer holding as stakeholder. no S&P agreement
my buddy's lawyer is taking care of the loan agreement. lawyer said OTP changes up to my buddy..is that correct? i thought that buddy's lawyer also protecting the bank.
yes my buddy wants the property for his wedding but seller seems to want to back out, as seller thinks he can sell for higher price.
anyway, two schools gave my buddy different opinions....most say go all out and get the property. others advsied him to move on with another property. Buddy damn confused. future wife nagging him every day. damn sien to see buddy like that. from what i hear, my buddy has a case
oops, S&P only new developments.
What is there to change in the OTP? The contract has been signed by both parties on the fixed price and exercise by the buyer. Now the buyer cannot back out of the deal.
The buyer's lawyer protects the buyer interest not the bank, the buyer pay the legals fees, the bank subsidies the fee only.
The lawyer has to do all the legal searches on the property and seller.
Wait a minute, I smell something fisher here, what if the prices fall farther, you buddy brought another place. That idiot seller turns around and ask you buddy to complete the sale. He will be in deep shit.
My advise is. Since OTP has been signed and exercise, and your buddy wants that property for his wedding. INSTRUCT the lawyer to complete the sale.
looks like i see a lot of experienced forum members
Sorry, this is a completed private property
4% with seller's lawyer holding as stakeholder. no S&P agreement
my buddy's lawyer is taking care of the loan agreement. lawyer said OTP changes up to my buddy..is that correct? i thought that buddy's lawyer also protecting the bank.
yes my buddy wants the property for his wedding but seller seems to want to back out, as seller thinks he can sell for higher price.
anyway, two schools gave my buddy different opinions....most say go all out and get the property. others advsied him to move on with another property. Buddy damn confused. future wife nagging him every day. damn sien to see buddy like that. from what i hear, my buddy has a case
oops, S&P only new developments.
What is there to change in the OTP? The contract has been signed by both parties on the fixed price and exercise by the buyer. Now the buyer cannot back out of the deal.
The buyer's lawyer protects the buyer interest not the bank, the buyer pay the legals fees, the bank subsidies the fee only.
The lawyer has to do all the legal searches on the property and seller.
Wait a minute, I smell something fisher here, what if the prices fall farther, you buddy brought another place. That idiot seller turns around and ask you buddy to complete the sale. He will be in deep shit.
My advise is. Since OTP has been signed and exercise, and your buddy wants that property for his wedding. INSTRUCT the lawyer to complete the sale.
thanks bro...but seller now wants to back out. but buddy wants to complete. anyway, i will ask buddy to speak to his lawyer from now on.
Be careful of this situation, the seller says now want to back out, later says wants to complete. By the way, the completion should be near already.
thanks bro...but seller now wants to back out. but buddy wants to complete. anyway, i will ask buddy to speak to his lawyer from now on.
Here I come again to amplify bullish context :tongue3: :
The Straits Times Index (STI) surged 5.65 per cent or 108.43 points to 2,028.71 - its highest level since the October global market plunge. Investors here snapped up banking stocks and key property plays. 'The markets are saying the worst is over. They're expecting things to improve in the second half of the year,' said Mr Kevin Scully, executive chairman of stock research firm Net-Research Asia. He said the spectacular rally was driven by the fresh funds pouring into Asia on the back of hopes of an early economic recovery.
Why don't you buddy just consult his lawyer regarding his rights & obligations & those of seller? What is his lawyer for? If lawyer not doing his job, complain to Law Society.
thanks bro...but seller now wants to back out. but buddy wants to complete. anyway, i will ask buddy to speak to his lawyer from now on.
Here I come again to amplify bullish context :tongue3: :
The Straits Times Index (STI) surged 5.65 per cent or 108.43 points to 2,028.71 - its highest level since the October global market plunge. Investors here snapped up banking stocks and key property plays. 'The markets are saying the worst is over. They're expecting things to improve in the second half of the year,' said Mr Kevin Scully, executive chairman of stock research firm Net-Research Asia. He said the spectacular rally was driven by the fresh funds pouring into Asia on the back of hopes of an early economic recovery.
Ok. So.. then? ...?
...
... ....
Quick Quick!!! Everyone look here, Mr Kiat had some profound findings for all!!
After SGX close @ 5pm today, with all indexs going up from NYSE to Hang Seng to SGX, all property price will be moving upward accordingly!
In fact, Mr Kiat has already show us the light in the dark tunnel! Property will recover in Q2-2009. Yes! Q2, that is April-May-June 2009!
Oh my gosh!! We are already in May, bottom over, out of the dark and in the summer grace! What are all of you doing? Hurried go get whatever OTP you could..
Like dat can? Mr Kiat? :p
Ok. So.. then? ...?
...
... ....
Quick Quick!!! Everyone look here, Mr Kiat had some profound findings for all!!
After SGX close @ 5pm today, with all indexs going up from NYSE to Hang Seng to SGX, all property price will be moving upward accordingly!
In fact, Mr Kiat has already show us the light in the dark tunnel! Property will recover in Q2-2009. Yes! Q2, that is April-May-June 2009!
Oh my gosh!! We are already in May, bottom over, out of the dark and in the summer grace! What are all of you doing? Hurried go get whatever OTP you could..
Like dat can? Mr Kiat? :p
No need to use such sarcastic tone even you have different opinions :doh:
Ok. So.. then? ...?
...
... ....
Quick Quick!!! Everyone look here, Mr Kiat had some profound findings for all!!
After SGX close @ 5pm today, with all indexs going up from NYSE to Hang Seng to SGX, all property price will be moving upward accordingly!
In fact, Mr Kiat has already show us the light in the dark tunnel! Property will recover in Q2-2009. Yes! Q2, that is April-May-June 2009!
Oh my gosh!! We are already in May, bottom over, out of the dark and in the summer grace! What are all of you doing? Hurried go get whatever OTP you could..
Like dat can? Mr Kiat? :p
:doh: Mr. Kiat Mr Kiat...if there's the true indication of the economy...life would be much simpler and people would not be burnt in stock market.
there are many players out there who would like to take money from the poor and give to the rich.....reverse Robin Hood or we can call them Hood Robin. btw let us the poor folks support you. tell us which stock prices you wish to see up up and up...and we will put in pennies
thanks bro...but seller now wants to back out. but buddy wants to complete. anyway, i will ask buddy to speak to his lawyer from now on.
Hi! Actually about the lawyer thingy.. hmm..
1. The Seller Lawyer. Simple. (Or Developer Lawer)
2a. The Buyer Lawyer or Bank Lawyer, he can chose to use the bank's panel lawyer, which is acting for the bank interest to act for him as well. This approach usually save on some legal fee since panel usually cheaper and legal subsidy may not in full. (Of course it the bank you going get the financing from.. :banghead: )
2b. Some prefer their own Buyer Lawyer. I do, I use those that I'm comfort with especially with PPS which no loan is secure yet. But since nowsady, most conveyancing firms are panel guys, so it ok. They are flexible enough to go direct to the bank for reimbursement of your legal subsidy and you pay only the shortfall. In fact, my last purchase the bank change to my lawyer which happen to be in their panel to have better effect on costing and liasion. My associate also happy, I pull in bank fee to him.
3. Developer lawyer. Subsale case. Buyer lawyer will liase with developer lawyer about the transaction/transfer & about DPS to PPS & progress schedule percentage, blah blah blah..
4. CPF Lawyer. So long you touch your CPF you need to pay. The last time I touch before the minimum 53k was more than 10 years back, it may be different now. That time CPF legal fee is fix at $1100 and my lawyer charge me 2%($800+) for a 400K+ property. So total abt $2000 which all can claim from legal subsidy or use CPF.
5. Foreign Lawyer. For oversea property. Say the condo beside KLCC which just TOP last month and you may need a foreign lawyer to act for your interest. This one a bit complex. Anyway, Malaysia no sub-sale.
Thats all about lawyer for conveyancing purpose. For your buddy, ask him to get the above 2a or 2b to go act for him. Replacement cost, cost diff or simply liquidation damage whatever.. I don't understand & don't believe the lawyer don't know this.
In any case, if a loan had been secure, the bank lawyer will act as well if full 20% had been paid up by buyer.
No need to use such sarcastic tone even you have different opinions :doh:
It not about different opinions. Simply because it came too far.
All the structure replies I have made to you never have a decent response.
All I recieve is once again, selective quantum been package as a big fat bull and throw back to this forum/thread.
So I help you to raise the bull loh.. cannot meh..
hahhahahah... cheers! :p
It not about different opinions. Simply because it came too far.
All the structure replies I have made to you never have a decent response.
All I recieve is once again, selective quantum been package as a big fat bull and throw back to this forum/thread.
So I help you to raise the bull loh.. cannot meh..
hahhahahah... cheers! :p
Can ... me being a big fat bull will keep quiet when stock market goes into serious correction phase loh ... but so far the bull still in charge so expect me to continue posting bullish news everyday to this forum :spliff: Anyway, from your posts, seem like you are an old bird in property play, young man like me should give you some due respect :)
Hi! Actually about the lawyer thingy.. hmm..
1. The Seller Lawyer. Simple. (Or Developer Lawer)
2a. The Buyer Lawyer or Bank Lawyer, he can chose to use the bank's panel lawyer, which is acting for the bank interest to act for him as well. This approach usually save on some legal fee since panel usually cheaper and legal subsidy may not in full. (Of course it the bank you going get the financing from.. :banghead: )
2b. Some prefer their own Buyer Lawyer. I do, I use those that I'm comfort with especially with PPS which no loan is secure yet. But since nowsady, most conveyancing firms are panel guys, so it ok. They are flexible enough to go direct to the bank for reimbursement of your legal subsidy and you pay only the shortfall. In fact, my last purchase the bank change to my lawyer which happen to be in their panel to have better effect on costing and liasion. My associate also happy, I pull in bank fee to him.
3. Developer lawyer. Subsale case. Buyer lawyer will liase with developer lawyer about the transaction/transfer & about DPS to PPS & progress schedule percentage, blah blah blah..
4. CPF Lawyer. So long you touch your CPF you need to pay. The last time I touch before the minimum 53k was more than 10 years back, it may be different now. That time CPF legal fee is fix at $1100 and my lawyer charge me 2%($800+) for a 400K+ property. So total abt $2000 which all can claim from legal subsidy or use CPF.
5. Foreign Lawyer. For oversea property. Say the condo beside KLCC which just TOP last month and you may need a foreign lawyer to act for your interest. This one a bit complex. Anyway, Malaysia no sub-sale.
Thats all about lawyer for conveyancing purpose. For your buddy, ask him to get the above 2a or 2b to go act for him. Replacement cost, cost diff or simply liquidation damage whatever.. I don't understand & don't believe the lawyer don't know this.
In any case, if a loan had been secure, the bank lawyer will act as well if full 20% had been paid up by buyer.
on behalf of my buddy, thanks for the detailed explanation. a good samaritan
Can ... me being a big fat bull will keep quiet when stock market goes into serious correction phase loh ... but so far the bull still in charge so expect me to continue posting bullish news everyday to this forum :spliff: Anyway, from your posts, seem like you are an old bird in property play, young man like me should give you some due respect :)
Of course you can put whatever big fat bull into this land of freedom.
I don't actually put in bear but I do love to play with the bull.. hahaha..
Hey please my friend .. abt the respect thingy, thank but don't need. Respect meant to be earn not given, demand or granted. Since young, I dislike senior that can't deliver but only like to play by their age and calling everyone "hey young man"..
I'm still young at heart and the only thing I look forward to is my first granddaughter which coming out in 3 weeks time and thats it.. not some index or TOP date, whatsoever.. My mentality on the order of the day is all about sharing, no old-new-bird etc and I intend to keep it that way..
You are coolz and maybe you are older than me.. K?
Your old bird cum respect theory is scaring the shit out of me.. hahhahah
on behalf of my buddy, thanks for the detailed explanation. a good samaritan
Don't mentioned it.. :p
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