View Full Version : I will buy rivergate and the sail
Agents and owners, i will buy 2/3 bdrm units at the sail or rivergate at launch prices. Pls sms me at 81331132 if u r interestes
Do not waste my time with requests for 'current market rate psf'
Agents and owners, i will buy 2/3 bdrm units at the sail or rivergate at launch prices. Pls sms me at 81331132 if u r interestes
Do not waste my time with requests for 'current market rate psf'
you not gonna exercise that the sail unit?
:)
Pet
you not gonna exercise that the sail unit?
:)
Pet
I have 4 weeks to decide. Tts y tis called 'option'. In a down market, options r the detriment of sellers. Unfortunately
I have 4 weeks to decide. Tts y tis called 'option'. In a down market, options r the detriment of sellers. Unfortunately
honestly that unit is really a good deal for the sail. only set back is that banks are not willing to loan...
it now boils down to the rivergate saga
actually checked with a lot agents from many different agenices and developers etc... but most said they heard of such rumours but do not have any concrete truth on such deals or issues going on.
:)
Pet
actually checked with a lot agents from many different agenices and developers etc... but most said they heard of such rumours but do not have any concrete truth on such deals or issues going on.
:)
Pet
Huh?? It's already reported on a financial paper as Ferrel Asset Mgmt intends to unload 90 units more.. I think I read it in THE EDGE
Is there an online version of the article?
Huh?? It's already reported on a financial paper as Ferrel Asset Mgmt intends to unload 90 units more.. I think I read it in THE EDGE
thats why.. tried getting someone to dig more info thru his contacts and sources but all came back saying no concrete info whether true or rumour...
:(
Pet
Go and buy the magazine called "THE EDGE"..
Don't be penny wise, pound foolish...
It says..
"Ferrell Asset Management is now looking to offload more than 90 apartments in RiverGate, with an indicative selling price of $950psf."
do you guys think rivergate a better investment than other condos in river valley or newton area?
petmall, you have any good buys for cosmopolitan or similar at launch prices?
my friend is looking for a unit. no great hurry, no need loan though if not too expensive
thanks
do you guys think rivergate a better investment than other condos in river valley or newton area?
petmall, you have any good buys for cosmopolitan or similar at launch prices?
my friend is looking for a unit. no great hurry, no need loan though if not too expensive
thanks
hi bro... appreciate if you could drop me your requirement in the other thread i started in d9 as well? i worry i might just missed you out on your request.. just in case only...
:)
Pet
At the 545-unit RiverGate, a waterfront condominium with landmark status along the Singapore River, funds managed by Ferrell Asset Management Ltd bought 100 apartments for $182 million in 2005 prior to the launch. The high-end condominium developed by CapitaLand and Hwa Hong Corp was initially launched in mid-2005 at an average price of $1,080 psf. By August 2006, transaction prices had escalated to $1,700 psf. In 2007, at the peak of the property boom, several units changed hands above $2,000 psf, with one, a large 2,992 sq ft apartment on the 38th floor, sold in the sub-sale market for close to $7.66 million, or $2,560 psf in July of that year, according to URA Realis database of caveats.
The two most recent caveats lodged with URA Realis in December at RiverGate were for two 1,550 sq ft apartments — one was sold for $1,100 psf and another for $1,419 psf in the sub-sale market. According to market sources, Ferrell Asset Management is now looking to offload more than 90 apartments in RiverGate, with an indicative selling price of $950 psf. The project is expected to obtain TOP sometime this year.
JUST READ THIS AT http://www.theedgesingapore.com/component/content/2447/2447.html?task=view&start=2
bargain hunter
22-02-09, 21:20
Even according to The Edge, they can only say "According to market sources". In any case, it appears that Ferrell, if rumour is proven true, wants to sell to a single buyer, which is likely to be a fund similar to ARA's Asia Dragon Fund which bought bulk units of Grange Infinite and thus, likely to grant a discount to 950psf. Currently, individuals are likely to be able to buy from the others only at launch prices which are closer to $1100psf, but of course we won't know if it might go down somemore in a few months time.
Nonetheless, I agree that the RiverGate is a superior development to others in the River Valley area and worth looking out for. For me, I feel that living beside the river sure beats the busy cross junction where the Cosmopolitan is located and the units and bedrooms, pool, facilities, landscape are also larger than that of Cosmopolitan. :) The drawback is that there are more units.
If u want rivergate, come look for me....have lots of units in hand but most prob only can view when i get keys from my owners in most prob-march.
All sizes that range from 2br-4br and nt forgetting the penthouses as well.
As long as offers are reasonable, will try my best to push the deal thru for u.
If u hav any further enquiries, i can be contacted @ 81835132 =)
Cheers mates ;)
If u want rivergate, come look for me....have lots of units in hand but most prob only can view when i get keys from my owners in most prob-march.
All sizes that range from 2br-4br and nt forgetting the penthouses as well.
As long as offers are reasonable, will try my best to push the deal thru for u.
If u hav any further enquiries, i can be contacted @ 81835132 =)
Cheers mates ;)
Reasonable for who? Sellers? Or Buyers? As a buyer, a reasonable price to me is $700 psf for Rivergate 2-bedder. If seller do not agree, do not bother to contact buyers.
East Lover
23-02-09, 09:13
If u want rivergate, come look for me....have lots of units in hand but most prob only can view when i get keys from my owners in most prob-march.
All sizes that range from 2br-4br and nt forgetting the penthouses as well.
As long as offers are reasonable, will try my best to push the deal thru for u.
If u hav any further enquiries, i can be contacted @ 81835132 =)
Cheers mates ;)
Okay, if you can get a 1500 sqft south facing unt at 1 mil, count me in. issue cheque immediately:)
Okay, if you can get a 1500 sqft south facing unt at 1 mil, count me in. issue cheque immediately:)
You can count me in as well. Most probably you can count on anyone who looking to buy right now. $700psf is a steal. But my own assessment is that all this talk of 700psf is just wishful thinking. But if the 'durian' wants to fall in front of me then who am I to refuse.
If u want rivergate, come look for me....have lots of units in hand but most prob only can view when i get keys from my owners in most prob-march.
All sizes that range from 2br-4br and nt forgetting the penthouses as well.
As long as offers are reasonable, will try my best to push the deal thru for u.
If u hav any further enquiries, i can be contacted @ 81835132 =)
Cheers mates ;)
my offer $700 psf for 2 br
if had.. PM me
Put me on the list as well ! :)
sgseriousbuyer
23-02-09, 13:55
2/3 br ok for me @ $700psf. Issue cheque immediately.
East Lover
23-02-09, 14:12
Agents and owners, i will buy 2/3 bdrm units at the sail or rivergate at launch prices. Pls sms me at 81331132 if u r interestes
Do not waste my time with requests for 'current market rate psf'
we should ask home run or Pet or Joe to represent us for a group discount at $700 psf for Rivergate :) (since Esta no hope at 700 psf liao...)
i12buyhouse
23-02-09, 16:05
Heard some rumours that all 80 units from fund house sold at $750psf flat this morning... can anyone confirm...?
if it is true... it turn out to be low floor/big unit at $700psf , high floor/small unit at $800psf.
we should ask home run or Pet or Joe to represent us for a group discount at $700 psf for Rivergate :) (since Esta no hope at 700 psf liao...)
where is your source from about this sale?
I wonder why can't Ferrell sell back to developer at a loss or at the breakeven px rather than make a big hoo ha with all the hassle now. Assuming F bought at average $1,080 or maybe $1k psf, F sell back to Capland at similar px or reported $950psf, i reckon not a bad deal for CapL as thet can resell at $1080 or $1.1k psf to their "preferred customer". CapL has the resources to do this and probably make at least $10+ mil along the way.
I believe what you all heard are just rumours.
They will not sell below 1200psf.
we should ask home run or Pet or Joe to represent us for a group discount at $700 psf for Rivergate :) (since Esta no hope at 700 psf liao...)
thanks for the trust and opportunity... i will update you guys if i do have any RG for sale @ good price!
:)
Pet
Heard some rumours that all 80 units from fund house sold at $750psf flat this morning... can anyone confirm...?
if it is true... it turn out to be low floor/big unit at $700psf , high floor/small unit at $800psf.
Got this update from my agent as well that it was sold to a single buyer today, keeping my fingers crossed but let's hope that they are willing to sell at a "reasonable" price for buyers if it is true
I was informed that the psf sold is $880 for all units, can anyone confirm on this?
Got this update from my agent as well that it was sold to a single buyer today, keeping my fingers crossed but let's hope that they are willing to sell at a "reasonable" price for buyers if it is true
now that single buyer will flip the units? LOL :money-faced1:
pls confirm with ur source bro...if 880psf for bulk, surely must be some reits fund or developer buy for investment one...
moreover, not tt i want to splash cold water but if rivergate 700psf, agents will buy first as they have the inside info.
I will buy first no need to wait for buyers because i know sure can sell above 1k in time to come. Maybe nt now but maybe @ least 1-2yrs down the rd when the mkt picks up. (pls dun be :mad: with me...i just stating facts to u guys).
This project & location is definitely worth more than 1k psf.
Very confident..when the surroundings are matured and developed like those near The Quayside (al-fresco fine dining bars and cafe), it'll bring life and zest into the surroundings. 1k psf for The Rivergate is an understatement in my personal opinion. :2cents:
Well firstly the info is provided by an agent a while ago, I would not confirm if its 100% true that's why I'm checking with others on this news as well
From my understanding the 80 units are spread on the 3 blocks on the even floors and deal was secured @ $880psf
As for the buyer, I'm not implying it is an individual since I was not provided any info who bought it. I would have assumed that it is mostly likely to be bot by a developer or fund hse as what you mentioned.
If the above is true, the subsale of these units will likely be more than 880psf.
An agent email me whether am I keen to buy Rivergate at 950 to 1000psf
anyone can advise whether is it a good buy...
I guess is ball roll over from the fund management saga....
An agent email me whether am I keen to buy Rivergate at 950 to 1000psf
anyone can advise whether is it a good buy...
I guess is ball roll over from the fund management saga....
It is too early to tell... If the 100 units up for grab are being snap up at $1000psf, then it may be a good deal. But if in the next 2 to 3 months, the 100 units are still being left for grab? What do you think?
I tend to believe even at $1k psf it would be snap up, if it comes to the point no fund will buy all, the owner can release to retail. It may take a bit of time for mkt to digest though. Else, owner can rent out cheap just to get cash flow going...
pls confirm with ur source bro...if 880psf for bulk, surely must be some reits fund or developer buy for investment one...
moreover, not tt i want to splash cold water but if rivergate 700psf, agents will buy first as they have the inside info.
I will buy first no need to wait for buyers because i know sure can sell above 1k in time to come. Maybe nt now but maybe @ least 1-2yrs down the rd when the mkt picks up. (pls dun be :mad: with me...i just stating facts to u guys).
This project & location is definitely worth more than 1k psf.
Very confident..when the surroundings are matured and developed like those near The Quayside (al-fresco fine dining bars and cafe), it'll bring life and zest into the surroundings. 1k psf for The Rivergate is an understatement in my personal opinion. :2cents:
If things are really so rosy, do you think the fund wouldn't hold out a bit earlier. And if they think can just easily collect rental, would they not keep the units. Afterall, they bought was also for long term investment, ie including rental and capital appreciation.
Obviously now neither investment strategy will work, they have decided to cut loss and dump the units. I maintain the world and singapore has not seen the worst and prices will take a few more qtrs to decline before rising again. Easily 2-3 yrs more to go. So whenever price dip a bit, there will be some bargain hunters rushing to temporary support the price. After awhile, the support level will be breached again and cheaper deals will once again be available.
So by all means, please go ahead and buy so that the next lower support level can be breached. I'm waiting until all the bargain hunters are gone. When rental market tanked. The people who buys now still need to find a tenant to partially support the loan. To me, that means property prices can still drop much further. The time to buy is when nobody dares to buy because there is no tenant, which will happen soon in the next few qtr.
I will salute you if you have at least $700k spare cash to buy even a 2-bedder. If you have to beg, steal, borrow or rally friends, family members, then my humble advice is, if you want to gamble, gamble with your own money, but not your love ones. Because if you dun have the cash, what makes you think you can buy the property even if you know of the deal. Banks are unlikely to lend you unless you hold a stable job like government official.
Nothing to do with investment strategy. it's about fund redemption.
because unit holders are cashing out and redeeming the fund, banks require topups to maintain the debt-to-equity ratio of the fund. i suspect that many have pulled out of the fund, that is why it is no longer viable for the fund to hold the units.
if this was a cash rich fund with the support of unit holders, they can hold on indefinitely
unfortunately, ferrel funds tend to be a little mickey mouse and niche
If things are really so rosy, do you think the fund wouldn't hold out a bit earlier. And if they think can just easily collect rental, would they not keep the units. Afterall, they bought was also for long term investment, ie including rental and capital appreciation.
Obviously now neither investment strategy will work, they have decided to cut loss and dump the units. I maintain the world and singapore has not seen the worst and prices will take a few more qtrs to decline before rising again. Easily 2-3 yrs more to go. So whenever price dip a bit, there will be some bargain hunters rushing to temporary support the price. After awhile, the support level will be breached again and cheaper deals will once again be available.
So by all means, please go ahead and buy so that the next lower support level can be breached. I'm waiting until all the bargain hunters are gone. When rental market tanked. The people who buys now still need to find a tenant to partially support the loan. To me, that means property prices can still drop much further. The time to buy is when nobody dares to buy because there is no tenant, which will happen soon in the next few qtr.
i maintain there is no hurry and this is still not the time to buy especially if its for investment. :cool:
Blame it on my inexperience or something, but i really do not understand how singapore property buyers think and derive what is fair pricing - so guys, please feel free to educate or correct my thinking - i wanna learn! The following diatribe is mainly for own-stay buyers, not investment buyers (who will wanna invest in the suburbs, i really don't know)
Let's take the following BT report as a backgrounder (http://luxuryasiahome.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/developers-home-sales-top-1000-units-in-feb/)
Suburban condos are selling like hotcakes at the $600psf psychological level. This is 10% off its peak in 2007. But new developments in Simei etc etc will similarly be priced as such.
Let's take the post SARs 2005 market pricing, which is already very generous. Condos in the suburbs were going for about $350psf. In comparison, BTO flats were going for $200psf. Today they are $300psf
This means the following:
- suburban condo buyers are paying a 75% premium over 2005 prices
- suburban HDB buyers are paying a 50% premium over 2005 prices
- this is the same story and percentages for D15 'hot' areas as well
Core central region like orchard/balmoral are now 50% down its highs and 5-15% over 2005 levels. technically, one can buy a 1000sq ft older apartment at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo, but without the waste space planter, bay window, PES, bomb shelter tricks new developers use.
Thus my question.
Why dey, why?
Let's take the post SARs 2005 market pricing, which is already very generous. Condos in the suburbs were going for about $350psf. In comparison, BTO flats were going for $200psf. Today they are $300psf
This means the following:
- suburban condo buyers are paying a 75% premium over 2005 prices
- suburban HDB buyers are paying a 50% premium over 2005 prices
- this is the same story and percentages for D15 'hot' areas as well
Core central region like orchard/balmoral are now 50% down its highs and 5-15% over 2005 levels. technically, one can buy a 1000sq ft older apartment at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo, but without the waste space planter, bay window, PES, bomb shelter tricks new developers use.
Thus my question.
Why dey, why?
i think 66% of ppl out there are a bit blind one, or have misplaced confidence ~ hehe :D
Bishan Kid
24-02-09, 10:43
Yes , the fund buy or sell depends on one thing--redemption.
They will only churn from one to another when there is profit to be made.
If losses incurred cos of the switch , it look bad on their book which is marked to market (inhouse valuation for property).
Cashflow is the key when it comes to investment.
The bank is always cautious if the percentage of quantum of loan is high relative to the valuation of the property.
If u are borrowing less than 40% , most banks will ask little questions about ability of monthly or interest only repayment.
Indonesians often unable to provide income statement in Singapore to banks but cos of the loan quatum is low , most got it approved without much hassle.
2 cents.
East Lover
24-02-09, 10:47
Blame it on my inexperience or something, but i really do not understand how singapore property buyers think and derive what is fair pricing - so guys, please feel free to educate or correct my thinking - i wanna learn! The following diatribe is mainly for own-stay buyers, not investment buyers (who will wanna invest in the suburbs, i really don't know)
Let's take the following BT report as a backgrounder (http://luxuryasiahome.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/developers-home-sales-top-1000-units-in-feb/)
Suburban condos are selling like hotcakes at the $600psf psychological level. This is 10% off its peak in 2007. But new developments in Simei etc etc will similarly be priced as such.
Let's take the post SARs 2005 market pricing, which is already very generous. Condos in the suburbs were going for about $350psf. In comparison, BTO flats were going for $200psf. Today they are $300psf
This means the following:
- suburban condo buyers are paying a 75% premium over 2005 prices
- suburban HDB buyers are paying a 50% premium over 2005 prices
- this is the same story and percentages for D15 'hot' areas as well
Core central region like orchard/balmoral are now 50% down its highs and 5-15% over 2005 levels. technically, one can buy a 1000sq ft older apartment at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo, but without the waste space planter, bay window, PES, bomb shelter tricks new developers use.
Thus my question.
Why dey, why?
hi bro, will you switch from the sail to watergate if it's $950psf? ;)
proud owner
24-02-09, 10:49
i think 66% of ppl out there are a bit blind one, or have misplaced confidence ~ hehe :D
prior to 2007 construction cost only 100 psf ...
but since the sand ban ... it shot up to as high as 280 psf ... even now.. i believe its 200 psf ... thats still a 100 pct increase in building cost ...
that will explain the difference between post SARS 2005 price and now
Property_Owner
24-02-09, 10:51
prior to 2007 construction cost only 100 psf ...
but since the sand ban ... it shot up to as high as 280 psf ... even now.. i believe its 200 psf ... thats still a 100 pct increase in building cost ...
that will explain the difference between post SARS 2005 price and now
Well said. Same thought as me:)
Wonder where they buy the sand from?
not a chance. rivergate is one development that is waaay overpriced. it's nowhere near to orchard, and the river valley grove/leonie areas are better priced at about $1000psf. there is a reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007
East Lover
24-02-09, 10:55
not a chance. rivergate is one development that is waaay overpriced. it's nowhere near to orchard, and the river valley grove/leonie areas are better priced at about $1000psf. there is a reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007
sorry, what's the reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007??? :confused: can detailed a bit?
Bishan Kid
24-02-09, 10:56
not a chance. rivergate is one development that is waaay overpriced. it's nowhere near to orchard, and the river valley grove/leonie areas are better priced at about $1000psf. there is a reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007
Agreed that RG is overpriced based currently prevailing price.
By the way , which new condos in Leonie is selling at or near $1000psf?
sorry, what's the reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007??? :confused: can detailed a bit?
little to no public transport infrastructure. apart from high priced gourmet restaurants and shops, very little amenities. the river gets very smelly during low tide. during indian festivals and thaipusam and every other month, the area turns into a foreign worker extension. late at night, the mat rempits rule.
try going there on a weekend during the day. it feels very sleepy.
then go there during the nite. it feels dangerous and undesirable.
the only good thing was the SYTs at the chocolatefactory, but even that's gone now
East Lover
24-02-09, 11:19
little to no public transport infrastructure. apart from high priced gourmet restaurants and shops, very little amenities. the river gets very smelly during low tide. during indian festivals and thaipusam and every other month, the area turns into a foreign worker extension. late at night, the mat rempits rule.
try going there on a weekend during the day. it feels very sleepy.
then go there during the nite. it feels dangerous and undesirable.
the only good thing was the SYTs at the chocolatefactory, but even that's gone now
wow! :doh:
that's why i very kiasu one. before i buy, i go stake out the place. e.g. was really really into beacon edge at tembeling. the number of times i go there stake out, go behind smell restaurant exhaust etc etc - countless.
heck i even went into the korean bbq restaurant to makan, kaypoh a bit. this restaurant's exhaust blows directly into the condo, making the whole place smell like an astons.
i guarantee if you buy beacon edge, you will always feel hungry!!
proud owner
24-02-09, 11:24
wow! :doh:
my agent friend also advised :
dont buy near religious ground ..be it church/temple/mosque
dont buy near hospital (thats why in 2006 i saw a corner terrace, land 4800 sqft only 1.28 mio but next to church...i siam ... Novena)
same reason why i refused to consider Imperial when my wife wanted to buy at 900 psf (near launch)
although prices have gone up ...i still no regret
my agent friend also advised :
dont buy near religious ground ..be it church/temple/mosque
dont buy near hospital (thats why in 2006 i saw a corner terrace, land 4800 sqft only 1.28 mio but next to church...i siam ... Novena)
same reason why i refused to consider Imperial when my wife wanted to buy at 900 psf (near launch)
although prices have gone up ...i still no regret
very true. i grew up at a place at the foot of mount faber. prime property today, super high value.
but it was built on top of an ancient malay cemetary. within a 500m radius was a temple, a mosque, 3 churches, and an ancient cave where the bones of a majapahit princess is rumored to lay.
when i was a kid, i wouldn't be able to sleep until the maid stand guard at my door till i fall asleep. also always kena 'woken' up in middle of nite. family riches went to the pits, tons of quarrels. same thing for most of my neighbours. priests and mediums of chinese and christian faith both say the whole development got problem.
after sold and move out, family boomtown charlie.
the place you stay makes a huge difference. some places give me free also i don't want, unless to store my car parts
e.g. the Peak at Balmoral; those new condos at irrawady
Property_Owner
24-02-09, 11:51
not a chance. rivergate is one development that is waaay overpriced. it's nowhere near to orchard, and the river valley grove/leonie areas are better priced at about $1000psf. there is a reason why MS has become a ghost town since 2007
Thought you mentioned you will buy RG at launch price?
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=7130
that was 2 days ago mah :tongue3:
Property_Owner
24-02-09, 12:19
If things are really so rosy, do you think the fund wouldn't hold out a bit earlier. And if they think can just easily collect rental, would they not keep the units. Afterall, they bought was also for long term investment, ie including rental and capital appreciation.
Obviously now neither investment strategy will work, they have decided to cut loss and dump the units. I maintain the world and singapore has not seen the worst and prices will take a few more qtrs to decline before rising again. Easily 2-3 yrs more to go. So whenever price dip a bit, there will be some bargain hunters rushing to temporary support the price. After awhile, the support level will be breached again and cheaper deals will once again be available.
So by all means, please go ahead and buy so that the next lower support level can be breached. I'm waiting until all the bargain hunters are gone. When rental market tanked. The people who buys now still need to find a tenant to partially support the loan. To me, that means property prices can still drop much further. The time to buy is when nobody dares to buy because there is no tenant, which will happen soon in the next few qtr.
I will salute you if you have at least $700k spare cash to buy even a 2-bedder. If you have to beg, steal, borrow or rally friends, family members, then my humble advice is, if you want to gamble, gamble with your own money, but not your love ones. Because if you dun have the cash, what makes you think you can buy the property even if you know of the deal. Banks are unlikely to lend you unless you hold a stable job like government official.
Talking about government official....IMHO, now government still taking in people for government jobs. That's a sigh that things are bad. But when you start to see them Restructuring and laying off, that's the sigh or bull marketing.
Property_Owner
24-02-09, 12:22
that was 2 days ago mah :tongue3:
Haha, couldn't say much. Just remind me that when I wanted to buy a unit at MBR, almost issued a cheque but something held me back(too bz lah) 2 days later the agent called me and I told him I decided to back out. He asked why? Told him, that was 2 days ago....Haha:cheers1:
Haha, couldn't say much. Just remind me that when I wanted to buy a unit at MBR, almost issued a cheque but something held me back(too bz lah) 2 days later the agent called me and I told him I decided to back out. He asked why? Told him, that was 2 days ago....Haha:cheers1:
Haha... I lagi best... I told my agent that the price was 2 Hrs ago... That was before I gotten the news that Citi Bank is having retrenchment. The news itself saved me at least $30K. 8)
East Lover
24-02-09, 13:21
my agent friend also advised :
dont buy near religious ground ..be it church/temple/mosque
dont buy near hospital (thats why in 2006 i saw a corner terrace, land 4800 sqft only 1.28 mio but next to church...i siam ... Novena)
same reason why i refused to consider Imperial when my wife wanted to buy at 900 psf (near launch)
although prices have gone up ...i still no regret
lf like that, all the projects in Novena can not buy liao, Novena seems like a medical center, all the hospitals, cancel centres all near by... night time must be very scary leh...:scared-1:
East Lover
24-02-09, 13:23
Haha... I lagi best... I told my agent that the price was 2 Hrs ago... That was before I gotten the news that Citi Bank is having retrenchment. The news itself saved me at least $30K. 8)
sorry, i'm a bit slow, how can the citibank retrenchment save you at least $30K??? :confused:
East Lover
24-02-09, 13:24
very true. i grew up at a place at the foot of mount faber. prime property today, super high value.
but it was built on top of an ancient malay cemetary. within a 500m radius was a temple, a mosque, 3 churches, and an ancient cave where the bones of a majapahit princess is rumored to lay.
when i was a kid, i wouldn't be able to sleep until the maid stand guard at my door till i fall asleep. also always kena 'woken' up in middle of nite. family riches went to the pits, tons of quarrels. same thing for most of my neighbours. priests and mediums of chinese and christian faith both say the whole development got problem.
after sold and move out, family boomtown charlie.
the place you stay makes a huge difference. some places give me free also i don't want, unless to store my car parts
e.g. the Peak at Balmoral; those new condos at irrawady
The place you stay makes a huge difference. totally agreed!
Core central region like orchard/balmoral are now 50% down its highs and 5-15% over 2005 levels. technically, one can buy a 1000sq ft older apartment at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo, but without the waste space planter, bay window, PES, bomb shelter tricks new developers use.
hi gfoo, can u kindly enlighten me some examples of 1000sq ft in Core central region at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo....?
(trying to learn here:o)
a 1300 sq ft suburban at $600psf costs $850k
a more than 5 yr old less than 15 yr old condo at balmoral is going for 1000sqft at $870k
some forummers know about it after they did the legwork the last time i posted about this weeks back - they have PM me
Exactly , a lot of agents just bullshitting us .. I have received a call today , they say give us a cheque at 900psf , that funds is trying to collect a 100 cheques for a hundred units .. so they hold my cheque for 3 month and let me know on the outcome in 3 month .. If they manage to get 100 cheques then tghe deal go through .. if not the deal falls out .. they claim they already have 20 cheques .. What a crap !!! Basically I give them a cheque andin 3 month time when the market goes further down and there would be cheaper deals I can not buy as I already commited ... If the market say ( Unlikely 100% ) goes up .. they might say sorry it could not work out ...
I wonder where they can get 100 idiots like this to give out cheques just to be held by the balls for 3 month for nothing ????
The other agent called me saying if I get him 950psf cheque he will close for me today .. It is not time yet to strike !!! This crisis gonna be very very bad , and the prices will go way, way , down, down ...
Exactly , a lot of agents just bullshitting us .. I have received a call today , they say give us a cheque at 900psf , that funds is trying to collect a 100 cheques for a hundred units .. so they hold my cheque for 3 month and let me know on the outcome in 3 month .. If they manage to get 100 cheques then tghe deal go through .. if not the deal falls out .. they claim they already have 20 cheques .. What a crap !!! Basically I give them a cheque andin 3 month time when the market goes further down and there would be cheaper deals I can not buy as I already commited ... If the market say ( Unlikely 100% ) goes up .. they might say sorry it could not work out ...
I wonder where they can get 100 idiots like this to give out cheques just to be held by the balls for 3 month for nothing ????
The other agent called me saying if I get him 950psf cheque he will close for me today .. It is not time yet to strike !!! This crisis gonna be very very bad , and the prices will go way, way , down, down ...
lol i concur.. got the notification from the agent that he received a reply from the director of ferrell that the sale of 80 units is untrue.. its seems to be another stunt by these people. Well wait till TOP and the desperation will start to strike...
In the meantime the serious sellers of RG please send me a private msg. I am a genuine buyer and if the price reasonable I will buy quick with cheque today . So you can save agent's commission !!
Blame it on my inexperience or something, but i really do not understand how singapore property buyers think and derive what is fair pricing - so guys, please feel free to educate or correct my thinking - i wanna learn! The following diatribe is mainly for own-stay buyers, not investment buyers (who will wanna invest in the suburbs, i really don't know)
Let's take the following BT report as a backgrounder (http://luxuryasiahome.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/developers-home-sales-top-1000-units-in-feb/)
Suburban condos are selling like hotcakes at the $600psf psychological level. This is 10% off its peak in 2007. But new developments in Simei etc etc will similarly be priced as such.
Let's take the post SARs 2005 market pricing, which is already very generous. Condos in the suburbs were going for about $350psf. In comparison, BTO flats were going for $200psf. Today they are $300psf
This means the following:
- suburban condo buyers are paying a 75% premium over 2005 prices
- suburban HDB buyers are paying a 50% premium over 2005 prices
- this is the same story and percentages for D15 'hot' areas as well
Core central region like orchard/balmoral are now 50% down its highs and 5-15% over 2005 levels. technically, one can buy a 1000sq ft older apartment at the same price quantum of a 1300sq ft suburban condo, but without the waste space planter, bay window, PES, bomb shelter tricks new developers use.
Thus my question.
Why dey, why?
I think the psychology of property ownership is at times irrationale and at times, rational investment theories and behaviour may not apply - particularly those for ownership. I would like to present my thoughts by first outlining what my world view of the psyche property ownership, and then go on further to elaborate on how this may impact certain situation or phenomenon which we have observe, and lastly some last words on what my personal view is on your statistics.
From a social point of view, property ownership (in many societies, particularly asian culture) has always been a symbol of status, achievement and also self appraisal. To some, property ownership is not about the economics or estate planning for their family - its about status and pride. Given it is often difficult to qualify and quantify social values and status ascribed to property ownership, some invest/buy into property not for its economics but more for self realisation and personal gratification of self-worth. Concept of home ownership does not limit to cases where such person(s) purchase for home stay. Home ownership is also desired by landlords want-to-be, as landlords, as we have long understood and studied the ascribed distinct status of noble classes, typically land owners.
In such a case, it can then be observed or argued that not everyone makes a purchase based on sound economics or even an astute view of the future growth. When the psychology of home ownership takes over the rational mind (i.e. assessing property purchase by its economic merits), it may bore down to affordability rather value.
Certain developers have taken advantage of this one possible (I use the term and notion of possibility because it remains as a postulate in my own view) psyche and started developing very small units, but at psf prices which some might argue from the merit point of view, hardly reasonable (say, 1000psf? for a so-so location and layout). Notwithstanding any of the above, such projects typically sell out quite well. Reasons could potentially be
1. while psf prices are high, quantum is actually small (coz units are very small), thus still less than the SGD1mio mark, which is very affordable by most singaporeans standards. Notwithstanding the project may not have the merits and location to warrant the, 1000psf pricing, demands remains strong for such products, because it allows certain class and group of people to access to private home ownership.
2. Persons(s) who want-to-be landlords, for the social reasons above, jumps on such opportunity to own a (small) unit for reasonably affordable <1mio pricing level. Many of these look to rent out their apartments so that they can achieve the "landlord" dream of perceived steady income associated with real property asset class (when deployed as a fixed income instrument).
Basically, we have people who wants to be home owners. Certain developers work on these market by making the apartments small, but at a psf level perhaps on the high end (for such certain project of that kind of merit). By making it accessible to the masses, with such price levels, the units have to be small and quality of living comfortable by the buyers will have to be compromised. Most of the buyers are focused on affordability rather value for money.
MY view is that this is in some way applicable for the sub-urban condos like you mentioned. My view is that, at those pricing at those locations, it may not be good value for money given the merits of those location are not fantastic. This said, as these apartments are within the affordable range, - such person(s) whom are interested to move into private property either as a dwelling place or to satisfy their landlord dream takes the plunge. This is something they can afford, and thus the purchase. Not everyone may be making rational assessment on the best deployment of their capital asset for the optimal investment if it bores down to be an affordability issue. Certain group of people may, for reason of the idealogy of property ownership can be more binary or bipolar than we think - that is, can they afford it or not (notwithstanding it may not be the investment). The moment they can afford it, they buy it.
Let's bring our thoughts back to what happened in the sub-prime crisis. Home ownership was the American dream, and in part spurred on the practice of sub-prime lending. Sub-prime lending allows larger group of people with perhaps less credit worthiness to access credit lines which would otherwise not be possible or afforded to them by main stream housing financing firms. The sub-prime lending business made housing affordable, even though, customers of these financing may have to pay a huge interest margin (i.,e. not the best investment approach or best financing package available). Most of them finds the idea of home ownership too attractive to resist, and went ahead to get such sub-prime financing packages when they really should not as they will hardly be able to sustain these high financing charges.
Is it affordable by the specific persons for such properties ? Yes.
Is it the best price they should be able to get from the market - Maybe not.
Why people still buy it ? My world view of this matter, in simple lay man terms - the psychology and ascribed social status accorded or perceived by society does play a part. Not everyone makes a rational investment decision.
My simple thoughts.
sorry, i'm a bit slow, how can the citibank retrenchment save you at least $30K??? :confused:
Eg. Initially my offer price is $800K. After knowing the news, I decided that the market should fall further. So when the agent called to firm the deal, I told her that the price is no longer valid 2 hrs late and before knowing retrenchment is going on.
Since I like the unit so much, I offer again at $770K ($18K above the launch price) and closed the deal.
East Lover
25-02-09, 08:53
Eg. Initially my offer price is $800K. After knowing the news, I decided that the market should fall further. So when the agent called to firm the deal, I told her that the price is no longer valid 2 hrs late and before knowing retrenchment is going on.
Since I like the unit so much, I offer again at $770K ($18K above the launch price) and closed the deal.
OIC. thanks for the explaination. :) congrates to your great deal :cheers6:
very true. i grew up at a place at the foot of mount faber. prime property today, super high value.
but it was built on top of an ancient malay cemetary. within a 500m radius was a temple, a mosque, 3 churches, and an ancient cave where the bones of a majapahit princess is rumored to lay.
when i was a kid, i wouldn't be able to sleep until the maid stand guard at my door till i fall asleep. also always kena 'woken' up in middle of nite. family riches went to the pits, tons of quarrels. same thing for most of my neighbours. priests and mediums of chinese and christian faith both say the whole development got problem.
after sold and move out, family boomtown charlie.
the place you stay makes a huge difference. some places give me free also i don't want, unless to store my car parts
e.g. the Peak at Balmoral; those new condos at irrawady
I am fond of Irrawady road... the phoenix park, what is that for?
of course, the price is still high my pocket not deep enough...
also thinking waterfront wave and livia, but 99 yrs...
I am fond of Irrawady road... the phoenix park, what is that for?
same here :D , but general comments is too near hospital leh.
u got go see the i-residences ?
same here :D , but general comments is too near hospital leh.
u got go see the i-residences ?
I saw it... the showroom is good...
yeap.. close to hospital... that is why can have unblock view.. :scared-5: :scared-5:
anyone knows how much the maintenance fee is at Rivergate? does it include parking?
want2buyhse
14-03-09, 22:17
RG owners collected keys yesterday. Just went to check out one 3 bedroom today. Heard from agent maintenance for 3br is $500+ a mth. :doh:
I found this on the website - two articles. One marks the entry of Ferrell Asset Management (owned by Lippo) into property market with purchase of 100 units, 182mio in one single project (what happened to risk management and portfolio diversification?).
Another article sets out Lippo investment strategy in its purchase of 100 units of Rivergate properties.
I was advised by certain agents that the fund will never sell their units for price of less than 1250psf. If they do start renting out their units, they would potentially be stuck with their 182million investment for 2 years, for a yield of (assuming to be extremely optimistic) about 5-7% if they are very lucky. My personal view is that these hedge funds will it hard accept/tolerate the kind of yields from rental. The hedge funds will not survive with such yields. They will then face a even higher risk - redemption.
The alternative is for them to sell out now to cut loss - but it will require them a one-time write down on their assets and proceed forward - probably easier for them to do and mashed it all with the current crisis. If they take the rental route, the yield is going to continue to drag their funds' performance into the next 1-2 years and beyond.
What are your views??
Hedge fund gets into property development
Gabriel Chen
526 words
16 January 2008
Straits Times (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))
English
(c) 2008 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
HEDGE funds do not usually get into property development, but a home-grown firm is venturing into the real estate game despite signs the roaring high-end market is slowing.
Ferrell Asset Management will develop Ferrell Residence, a project consisting of luxury flats and penthouses on a 31,371 sq ft site opposite Anglo-Chinese School (Barker Road), next to City Tower.
The freehold estate in Bukit Timah will have about 30 units worth at least $2,300 per sq ft.
Ms Jeanna Chan, executive director of Ferrell Asset Management, which manages more than US$700 million (S$1 billion) worth of assets, said the project would be launched around the middle of the year.
It signals a major shift for Ferrell. It has been a big investor in existing properties and counts real estate players such as Indonesia's Lippo Group as investors, but developing has not been in its game plan.
Ms Chan, however, sees it as a logical move.
'Development is a natural and strategic extension of our experience in managing properties,' she explained. 'I feel this is an opportunistic move in light of our outlook for local and regional properties.'
Ferrell's property portfolio includes The Trillium, 100 condominium units at RiverGate and 52 per cent of strata units in 79 Anson.
Ferrell is one of the few funds that have spent big money on single residential projects.
One play involved outlaying more than $182 million to buy units at RiverGate three years ago.
While non-property firms have ventured into real estate development - publisher Eastern Holdings is one - it is unusual for hedge funds.
Most funds typically invest in properties directly or via other property funds or team up with developers to take stakes in projects.
'When we have a property boom, it is not surprising that we have more players going into property development than the traditional developers,' said Daiwa Institute of Research analyst David Lum.
While industry watchers do not doubt Ferrell's ability to profit by buying and selling properties, they say developing is a different ball game altogether.
'You have to market the building. You need coordinators with real estate experience to manage the building. It's a case of specialising in what you do best,' Knight Frank director of research and consultancy Nicholas Mak said.
'Ferrell has always been deemed to be different compared to our peers in this market. Our principals are business-oriented in outlook other than being hedge fund managers,' Ms Chan said.
Ferrell's move may encourage other funds with the financial muscle to develop their own properties.
With assets so pricey, spotting an undervalued real estate deal becomes more difficult, so hedge funds would rather develop their own to sell.
'Now that interest rates have gone down, liquidity will be improved, and that will be an excellent time for the likes of private equity firms and funds to come back again,' said Jones Lang LaSalle Asia Pacific head of investments Lui Seng Fatt.
With interest rates being driven down further, sources of funding are becoming more attractive for hedge funds, he added.
Lippo eyes S'pore buyers for condo projects
Fiona Chan
672 words
18 September 2006
Straits Times (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))
English
(c) 2006 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
AT A time when many developers are relying on growing foreign demand to boost their home sales, Indonesia's Lippo Group is instead targeting local buyers for its residential projects here.
Despite pricing its Newton One development at a slight premium over similar offerings by its rivals, the property group has been pleasantly surprised to find that two-thirds of buyers are Singaporeans.
This seems to go against the accepted wisdom that pricier homes cater more to foreigners than locals.
Of three recently-launched condominiums in the Newton area, Lippo's Newton One - its first residential development in Singapore - has the highest price per sq ft (psf).
Apartments in the 91-unit project went for an average of $1,250 psf, or about $1.5 million for a 1,200 sq ft apartment.
This compares to average prices of about $1,220 psf for City Developments' nearby Residences @ Evelyn and less than $1,000 psf for Park Infinia by Keppel Land at Wee Nam Road.
Lippo has unloaded almost all the units in its freehold condominium since sales started in June, with just two units left as of last Friday, the group said.
'The first few days after we launched Newton One, all our eight five-bedroom units were snapped up, and mostly by locals,' Lippo deputy chairman Stephen Riady told The Straits Times.
'To be frank, I am also a bit surprised,' he said in an interview.
'But from this experience I learnt that if you price between $1,200 psf and $1,500 psf or even up to $1,600 psf with the right location and good design, you can target not only foreigners but also some wealthier locals.'
Consequently, the developer is now aiming to get more Singapore home buyers even for some of its upmarket projects, as a customer base that is mostly local tends to be less volatile, said Mr Riady.
'When the market is very, very good, you can sell 90 per cent of your project to foreigners, but when the market is weak, foreigners may not want to come in,' he explained.
'So you want to have balance. You don't just want foreign buyers, you also want local demand, which is more stable.
'We like targeting this range, about $1,300 psf to $1,600 psf, where we can cater to both foreigners and Singaporeans.'
In line with this strategy, Lippo will launch its next development - a 270-unit freehold condominium on the Kim Seng Road site that it bought from OCBC Bank in April - at average prices of between $1,500 psf and $1,600 psf.
The project, to be launched next February or March, will have about 90 units each of two- and three-bedroom apartments at 1,300 sq ft and 1,900 sq ft respectively. There will also be 60 four-bedroom units of 2,000 sq ft and 30 five-bedroom, 2,500 sq ft units, Lippo said.
Lippo also has a block of 100 units in CapitaLand's RiverGate condominium that it bought last year. It plans to start selling the units either by the end of the year or early next year at average prices of between $1,600 psf and $1,650 psf, for a healthy profit.
Also in the pipeline is Lippo's joint 99-year leasehold project with CapitaLand in Alexandra Road that will be launched by year-end.
Targeting a more stable base
LIPPO is now aiming to get more Singapore home buyers even for some of its upmarket projects, as a customer base that is mostly local tends to be less volatile, says Mr Riady.
'When the market is very, very good, you can sell 90 per cent of your project to foreigners, but when the market is weak, foreigners may not want to come in,' he explains.
'So you want to have balance. You don't just want foreign buyers, you also want local demand, which is more stable.'
One thing for sure , you can never trust real estate agents . they are dirty up to their ears, all they say are bullshit and all you have to do is to listen their crap and nod like an idiot and then make your own decision. Usually , exactly opposite from what they say .. I also was told they would never sell below 1250 .. what crap it is .. just wait few more weeks and see what will happen .. After some transactions at 1,100 in URA who would buy 1200 in fallen market ?? Cosmopolitan also touching 1,100 where lesser units and not so crowded .. it will go close to 800 just wait !! Too many units there and too many distressed punters ..
bargain hunter
16-03-09, 00:11
Even though I am bargain hunting, I disagree that prices are going to slide steeply and quickly after TOP. We have agents who say the hedge fund won't sell below 1250psf and are branded liars. But as my earlier post had mentioned, those that spread rumours and said Ferrell was in financial difficulties and would panic sell at 950psf and talked down all the way to say 700psf were also liars. If we can have people snatching up units which cost more than $1.1m for 2 bedroom units at Mercury, I don't see why we won't have people buying at $1.1m for 2 bedders at Rivergate. So prices could still stay around $1100psf for awhile more. Cosmopolitan would have its own supporters who would appreciate it and likewise for Rivergate.
Cosmopolitan:
Pros:
1) Smaller development so more exclusive, 228 apartments on 113,000 sq ft of land.
2) 900+m to Orchard.
Cons:
1) Located at a noisy cross junction.
2) Small pool.
3) Basic condo facilities only.
4) 1 of the bedrooms (be it 2, 3 or 4 bedrooms) is significantly smaller than the rest.
Rivergate:
Pros:
1) Located along the Singapore river.
2) Large pool.
3) Complete condo facilities and more.
4) Generous sized bedrooms and other usable space as well.
5) 900+m from Somerset.
Cons:
1) 545 units on 323,653 sq ft of land.
Simple maths will tell you that while there are more units at Rivergate, Cosmopolitan is the one that is more densely populated.
The cheapest unit sub sold at Cosmopolitan recently is a 2 bedder for $1.5m. It is 1141sq ft, is bigger than any of Rivergate's 2 bedders in absolute size but has a smaller bedroom. All of The Cosmopolitan's 2 bedders face the under construction The Trillium. Why would Rivergate's 2 bedrooms which face the river be worth less than $1.1m at this point?
So far only 1 unit is done at 1100psf and the next lowest psf is 1391psf.
Are there really so many distressed owners? According to Realis, more than 350 (including Ferrell's) of the 542 units sold are bought at 1050 to 1300+psf during the 1st 2 phases in 05 and 06 when speculation was not so hot yet. During the third phase, more people bought at 1600 to 1800psf but in all, there are less than 200 units which were bought at 1400 to 1800psf and these are the people who could be distressed. Even then, I wonder if they will sell at 1100psf.
I think we will still need to wait awhile before we can buy at 800psf, for now, I think can only look out for stray panic sellers selling at around 1000 to 1100psf. If you are comfortable with that price, buy, if not, then wait for 800psf some time down the road.
bargain hunter
16-03-09, 00:35
Ferrell may traditionally be a hedge fund but having set up a property fund for its property investments, it would probably have an investment mandate which is similar to ARA, which runs a fund which invested in Grange Infinite. This kind of fund is aware that real estate can be illiquid at times and unlike hedge funds which invest in the stock market, do not face immediate redemption kind of pressures. 182m in Rivergate is small if u compare with their development projects like The Trillium and Ferrell Residences. For cashflow reasons, it could be possible that Ferrell could sell at cost of around 1000psf but probably not too far below that unless they are really in financial distress. The rental yield is probably closer to 4 to 5% if they hold on but potentially that might be acceptable in light of the global circumstances.
I found this on the website - two articles. One marks the entry of Ferrell Asset Management (owned by Lippo) into property market with purchase of 100 units, 182mio in one single project (what happened to risk management and portfolio diversification?).
Another article sets out Lippo investment strategy in its purchase of 100 units of Rivergate properties.
I was advised by certain agents that the fund will never sell their units for price of less than 1250psf. If they do start renting out their units, they would potentially be stuck with their 182million investment for 2 years, for a yield of (assuming to be extremely optimistic) about 5-7% if they are very lucky. My personal view is that these hedge funds will it hard accept/tolerate the kind of yields from rental. The hedge funds will not survive with such yields. They will then face a even higher risk - redemption.
The alternative is for them to sell out now to cut loss - but it will require them a one-time write down on their assets and proceed forward - probably easier for them to do and mashed it all with the current crisis. If they take the rental route, the yield is going to continue to drag their funds' performance into the next 1-2 years and beyond.
What are your views??
Hedge fund gets into property development
Gabriel Chen
526 words
16 January 2008
Straits Times (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))
English
(c) 2008 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
HEDGE funds do not usually get into property development, but a home-grown firm is venturing into the real estate game despite signs the roaring high-end market is slowing.
Ferrell Asset Management will develop Ferrell Residence, a project consisting of luxury flats and penthouses on a 31,371 sq ft site opposite Anglo-Chinese School (Barker Road), next to City Tower.
The freehold estate in Bukit Timah will have about 30 units worth at least $2,300 per sq ft.
Ms Jeanna Chan, executive director of Ferrell Asset Management, which manages more than US$700 million (S$1 billion) worth of assets, said the project would be launched around the middle of the year.
It signals a major shift for Ferrell. It has been a big investor in existing properties and counts real estate players such as Indonesia's Lippo Group as investors, but developing has not been in its game plan.
Ms Chan, however, sees it as a logical move.
'Development is a natural and strategic extension of our experience in managing properties,' she explained. 'I feel this is an opportunistic move in light of our outlook for local and regional properties.'
Ferrell's property portfolio includes The Trillium, 100 condominium units at RiverGate and 52 per cent of strata units in 79 Anson.
Ferrell is one of the few funds that have spent big money on single residential projects.
One play involved outlaying more than $182 million to buy units at RiverGate three years ago.
While non-property firms have ventured into real estate development - publisher Eastern Holdings is one - it is unusual for hedge funds.
Most funds typically invest in properties directly or via other property funds or team up with developers to take stakes in projects.
'When we have a property boom, it is not surprising that we have more players going into property development than the traditional developers,' said Daiwa Institute of Research analyst David Lum.
While industry watchers do not doubt Ferrell's ability to profit by buying and selling properties, they say developing is a different ball game altogether.
'You have to market the building. You need coordinators with real estate experience to manage the building. It's a case of specialising in what you do best,' Knight Frank director of research and consultancy Nicholas Mak said.
'Ferrell has always been deemed to be different compared to our peers in this market. Our principals are business-oriented in outlook other than being hedge fund managers,' Ms Chan said.
Ferrell's move may encourage other funds with the financial muscle to develop their own properties.
With assets so pricey, spotting an undervalued real estate deal becomes more difficult, so hedge funds would rather develop their own to sell.
'Now that interest rates have gone down, liquidity will be improved, and that will be an excellent time for the likes of private equity firms and funds to come back again,' said Jones Lang LaSalle Asia Pacific head of investments Lui Seng Fatt.
With interest rates being driven down further, sources of funding are becoming more attractive for hedge funds, he added.
Lippo eyes S'pore buyers for condo projects
Fiona Chan
672 words
18 September 2006
Straits Times (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))
English
(c) 2006 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
AT A time when many developers are relying on growing foreign demand to boost their home sales, Indonesia's Lippo Group is instead targeting local buyers for its residential projects here.
Despite pricing its Newton One development at a slight premium over similar offerings by its rivals, the property group has been pleasantly surprised to find that two-thirds of buyers are Singaporeans.
This seems to go against the accepted wisdom that pricier homes cater more to foreigners than locals.
Of three recently-launched condominiums in the Newton area, Lippo's Newton One - its first residential development in Singapore - has the highest price per sq ft (psf).
Apartments in the 91-unit project went for an average of $1,250 psf, or about $1.5 million for a 1,200 sq ft apartment.
This compares to average prices of about $1,220 psf for City Developments' nearby Residences @ Evelyn and less than $1,000 psf for Park Infinia by Keppel Land at Wee Nam Road.
Lippo has unloaded almost all the units in its freehold condominium since sales started in June, with just two units left as of last Friday, the group said.
'The first few days after we launched Newton One, all our eight five-bedroom units were snapped up, and mostly by locals,' Lippo deputy chairman Stephen Riady told The Straits Times.
'To be frank, I am also a bit surprised,' he said in an interview.
'But from this experience I learnt that if you price between $1,200 psf and $1,500 psf or even up to $1,600 psf with the right location and good design, you can target not only foreigners but also some wealthier locals.'
Consequently, the developer is now aiming to get more Singapore home buyers even for some of its upmarket projects, as a customer base that is mostly local tends to be less volatile, said Mr Riady.
'When the market is very, very good, you can sell 90 per cent of your project to foreigners, but when the market is weak, foreigners may not want to come in,' he explained.
'So you want to have balance. You don't just want foreign buyers, you also want local demand, which is more stable.
'We like targeting this range, about $1,300 psf to $1,600 psf, where we can cater to both foreigners and Singaporeans.'
In line with this strategy, Lippo will launch its next development - a 270-unit freehold condominium on the Kim Seng Road site that it bought from OCBC Bank in April - at average prices of between $1,500 psf and $1,600 psf.
The project, to be launched next February or March, will have about 90 units each of two- and three-bedroom apartments at 1,300 sq ft and 1,900 sq ft respectively. There will also be 60 four-bedroom units of 2,000 sq ft and 30 five-bedroom, 2,500 sq ft units, Lippo said.
Lippo also has a block of 100 units in CapitaLand's RiverGate condominium that it bought last year. It plans to start selling the units either by the end of the year or early next year at average prices of between $1,600 psf and $1,650 psf, for a healthy profit.
Also in the pipeline is Lippo's joint 99-year leasehold project with CapitaLand in Alexandra Road that will be launched by year-end.
Targeting a more stable base
LIPPO is now aiming to get more Singapore home buyers even for some of its upmarket projects, as a customer base that is mostly local tends to be less volatile, says Mr Riady.
'When the market is very, very good, you can sell 90 per cent of your project to foreigners, but when the market is weak, foreigners may not want to come in,' he explains.
'So you want to have balance. You don't just want foreign buyers, you also want local demand, which is more stable.'
No way you can achieve 4-5% rental yeild at this market even if your cost is 1,000 psf .. for 2 bedder it would be max. 4k per month mid floor .. so it is 1,070m with stamp duty+ need to spend some money on the drapes and at least some interior and appliances + maintenance + property tax + agent commission .. so it is 3% at the most .. and after 540 units flood the market , there will be a major correction downwards in rentals ..
Spoke with an agent today. Understand that #11-04 was sold for 1050psf very recently. Checked against the caveats - it appears #11-04 was originally purchased in the range of 1500psf. Based on the caveat records, no further subsale was done on that unit.
If what the agent said is indeed true, and not withstanding, only about 10% of RG viewable units is currently available in the market (I further understood that only about 40-50 units have collected key to date, as the key collection is done in phases) - looks like it might be quite interesting going forward.
Wow, I can not believe people are still so adventurous buying at 1,050 for a low floor unit .. I wonder who are those buyers , can not be locals right ?
So many units still yet to come to the market this year .. better just wait when all the cash dries up .. :tsk-tsk:
Hi J-Dog,
Being an interested buyer in RG, I obviously and certainly wouild like to agree with number of cash rich individuals, whom are interested in properties by and large, who would always enter the market when there is a reasonable fall in the trading price for RG units. For obvious reasons, I certainly wished there are lesser of such intermediate buyers, where by their entry is likely to cause a somewhat "temporary" (if I may assume it to be temporary, as the case may be) price support level, before it continues to fall. In cases, where there are sufficient buyers, prices will stablise and not continue to fall anymore. In essence and short, equilibrium of demand and supply.
I appreciate there has been views that the price will fall to as low as 850psf in due course, and perhaps in the not so distant future - I would love that to happen since I do confess I am interested in RG as well, but as I relish on that thought, I have questions on these "intermediate" buyers coming into the market providing temporary support as it may occur. Perhaps a more succinct reflection and my query in a separate post, and I take the liberty to reproduce it as belows.
Any thoughts and views on (1) your views on the number of these intermediate buyers whom would come into the market and prevent the market from falling to sub-1000 psf levels, (2) how many of these intermediate buyers are there. If there are only say 50 of them, I guess it is not a problem, as 50 units clearly not going to be the marginal clearing price for RG (given it has 545 units in all).
I think my question essentially is also asking for peoples view on what might the eventual equilibrium price for RG units, but in this instance, I am hoping for a substantiated or articulated view in a deeper dimension. I believe everyone probably thought about it before, just that most do not articulate that.
Look forward to hear from you all.... ...
"
Nice one. I am always interested from people, on their views of trading supports for property markets. Technically speaking, property is not exactly a free and efficient market. This said, what is your view, the theory that when prices fall to a certain level, there will always be a surge of willing buyers coming in the market to pick up these units, such the price fall is always somehow controlled and restricted.
Of course, the free falling situation will occur when no one is buying. As we are all aware, the market is essentially made by the marginal sellers and buyers. Since you only need one marginal buyer to transact to set the clearing price, so I guess from your comment, I assuming you are saying the bulk of the marginal buyers in the market by Q3 will be around the range of 850psf?
But, before the RG's market clear to the level of 850psf, all the buyers of 1100psf, 1000psf, 950psf..... till 860psf must first be exhausted before prices can reach 850psf. My query is, what is everyone's view on how many of these marginal buyers the RG market has to clear, before the price can reach 850psf ?
I think my question delves a little more than just price levels, but I am just wondering how many more units has to "go" before we can hit the 850psf. I am keen to get RG at a price above 850psf but I just want to hear some consensus on the same, just to get a rough feel or idea.
Any ideas ??"
For these so called intermediate buyers, I would guess they are probably pertaining to those homestayers by and large rather than investors.
Since investors are more price sensitive and homestayers would probably buy what they like if prices are somewhat within their budget and would rather not wait for further drop which could be months especially if they are looking for immediate stay.
As for investors, I would not say most are targeting at 850 or 900 psf, I figured that there are still quite a number of investors and/or buyers willing to pay at $1k psf.
I have also spoken to a few agents on RG and from what I heard the 3bedders rental are now fetching at 4.8k which is horrendously low which I am not surprised in this market condition and worse to come once more units collect the keys. As such if buying for investment, it would probably make sense to hold and wait for further drop.
To sum up, I conclude most intermediate buyers are likely to be homebuyers and as to the extent how many of such pple would really depend on the economy.. job security, pay cuts etc.. As for the prices to drop to <$1kpsf would also be determined by the rental yield and demand; from the current situation it does not seem gd if a 3bedder fetch only $4.8k - something worth noting if owners are not able to get rental or unable to pay for monthly loans
If we compare to near by projects say Cosmopolitan , 3-4 weeks before TOP the the cheapest price you could buy was 1500psf while all were trying to sell 1600-1700 .. Then at TOP when 10% of the owners got the keys it went to 1400-1600 and after most of the owners got the keys it plummeted to 1150-1300 . Now it stabilised at around 1150-1200. and Cosmo is only around 200 units project not 550 like RG .. As for myself I like Cosmo more as it looks very "grand" and it feels cosy and not that crowded withgood reception area and excellent gym. With RG when you are in swimming pool you are exposed and like a sitting duck being watched right in the middle and all the 3 towers residents are looking at you.. I do not like this. Also, when the next upswing in the market turn up smaller projects wil fly to the sky more quicker with rental and sales while crowded like RG will be dragged behind . One more concern is look out of the window on the huge plot of land where "Zouk" is and neigbouring car park. I bet they will knock the Zouk down within a year or two and start massive construction site in there to build some skyscrapers right next door to RG . They always do it :))
I have a friend who bought a "
[email protected]" at premium price just to realise next month that they are building a new project right next to him , blocking all his windows with nice view .. How mean it is.. To summurise to me it is ok project, nothing fancy but in this environment I do not think it worth moe then 1000psf for high floor premium units . If I was a buyer I would rather buy something else at this price..
[quote=J-Dog]If we compare to near by projects say Cosmopolitan , 3-4 weeks before TOP the the cheapest price you could buy was 1500psf while all were trying to sell 1600-1700 .. Then at TOP when 10% of the owners got the keys it went to 1400-1600 and after most of the owners got the keys it plummeted to 1150-1300 . Now it stabilised at around 1150-1200.[quote]
Hi J-Dog,
Thanks for your input. On a similar note, I wonder if we can also have some views on the above. I was under the impression, once owners start taking keys, their "cost" is actually higher:-
1. They would have started paying mortgage, which means their holding cost increases to the extent of the interest component in the mortgage payment, particularly in the earlier years, interest component is way larger than principal repayment;
2. With a loan, they would also be liable to breakage fees (imposed on the loa) if they sell within the lock-in period, if any.
3. They have had to start paying maintenance fees during these months before they managed to sell. I think this is really peanuts on the grand scale of things.
The above are some top-of-mind items, whcih I can think of. I am sure there are more "additional cost impacts" for owners whom decided to proceed with a loan.
I appreciate the price drop in Cosmo is a fact (as have been observed and verified in URA data), but just not able to reconcile why prices continue to drop notwithstanding, these owners actually have suffered an increased cost (pursuant to taking up a loan). I am sure the owners would have already anticipated this price drop. Should they not have been better off walking away, at TOP, if that was an option (assuming they would have to take a 20% loss on their equity entirely. This is assumed, without the benefit on how much these original owners paid for Cosmo in their original purchase).
any ideas ?
Recent caveat lodged for Cosmopolitan had a unit that sold for $1150 psf. Anyone thinks that Cosmopolitan will fall to $1000 psf? :confused:
I am hopeful as tribeca's prices are coming down and Rivergate's influx of 300+ units (assuming 200+ for own stay) for resale and rental may cause a further drop in prices at the River Valley area. I am buying for own stay and looking for a 2 bedder. I wonder how long I have to wait before buyers' and sellers' ecpectations meet. I offered $1.1 mil for a 1065 sf unit at Watermark but sellers want $1100 psf. My bank valued that unit to be $1.1 mil only; last month a similar unit 1055 sf was valued at $1.15 mil. Seems to me bank valuation for River Valley area is coming down.
bargain hunter
22-03-09, 18:58
For these so called intermediate buyers, I would guess they are probably pertaining to those homestayers by and large rather than investors.
Since investors are more price sensitive and homestayers would probably buy what they like if prices are somewhat within their budget and would rather not wait for further drop which could be months especially if they are looking for immediate stay.
As for investors, I would not say most are targeting at 850 or 900 psf, I figured that there are still quite a number of investors and/or buyers willing to pay at $1k psf.
I have also spoken to a few agents on RG and from what I heard the 3bedders rental are now fetching at 4.8k which is horrendously low which I am not surprised in this market condition and worse to come once more units collect the keys. As such if buying for investment, it would probably make sense to hold and wait for further drop.
To sum up, I conclude most intermediate buyers are likely to be homebuyers and as to the extent how many of such pple would really depend on the economy.. job security, pay cuts etc.. As for the prices to drop to <$1kpsf would also be determined by the rental yield and demand; from the current situation it does not seem gd if a 3bedder fetch only $4.8k - something worth noting if owners are not able to get rental or unable to pay for monthly loans
it seems like there is really a wide range of rentals that a 3 bedder can fetch depending on the view/facing and storey. My agent friend showed me a cheque for 6.5k for RG, partially furnished, for a 3 bedder high floor unit which he closed. In contrast, he also closed a 3 bedder at 4.8k for watermark. I believe a "normal" 3 bedder will probably command 5k+ in rental on average but I guess pple still do pay if they are able to get something which they feel is special to them.
Except for the bigger quantum involved, feel that RG is one notch up due to the big land size vis a vis smallish Watermark n Cosmo has no tennis court. If i want to buy a Condo, it must have full facilities. Else with the same quantum might as well buy FH landed :)
Lots of expats will relocate during July and August, at the end of a school year. I would assume more people will leave Singapore than come in. So I presume we could see another significant drop of rent of upmarket family condo´s by September. When more people failed to secure rent from expats coming to Singapore, or those relocating within Singapore.
Offcourse there will be people who´s rental contract just ended or will end the next 1-2 months. So they cannot wait for a further drop in rent, they have to take what is available.
Some interesting experience / SMS I received lately.
1. I received a SMS update on RG today. Agent posted a number of (as update) sale transactions done 1200psf and 1350psf, as well as some rentals which was closed at 6.5K (3BR) and 5.8K (2BR). I am aware of some other transactions which was done at 1050psf and 1080psf and asked the agent if he knows of these units done at these lower prices, guess what was her response ? Ans: Those are odd ones, my clients need not know about these prices and thus did not include in her mass SMS update!!!
2. I received a SMS from another agent stating transaction price for stack 9 is now shooting through the roof as demand is overwhelming. I clarified on the price and how bad is the extent-> was replied a unit was done at 1350psf (same as the one above). I also understand there is only one unit that has achieved this 1350psf. Quite naturally, I asked could it be just only one unit and not a market/development wide phenonmenon.... he then went on to say how much demand there has been and how the economy will be turning around in 3 months time. I must say, I almost fainted when I heard the economy part.
he then went on to say how much demand there has been and how the economy will be turning around in 3 months time. I must say, I almost fainted when I heard the economy part.
MM say need 2-3 yrs
he say 3 mths :tongue3:
then i would say, it just a dream.
Go to bed.
tomorrow wake up.
Everything is FINE;)
bargain hunter
22-03-09, 22:29
Except for the bigger quantum involved, feel that RG is one notch up due to the big land size vis a vis smallish Watermark n Cosmo has no tennis court. If i want to buy a Condo, it must have full facilities. Else with the same quantum might as well buy FH landed :)
I totally agree. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this forum keeps bad mouthing RG and compare with Cosmo when they earlier said they wanted to buy RG. Probably some hidden agenda involved.
I totally agree. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this forum keeps bad mouthing RG and compare with Cosmo when they earlier said they wanted to buy RG. Probably some hidden agenda involved.
Bro, dun think they are bad mouthing lah....some of the comments are quite valid. Like the huge number of units vis-a-vis Cosmo. Moreover, Cosmo loction is definately way better that RG. A few weeks ago went doen to reckee Pacific Mansion cos there's was a hot thread about it in this forum some time then, already not convemient to walk to PM. let alone RG (which i continue to walk down).
There is also this incident whereby I want to go down and check it out on Watermark (again due to the forum response comparing RG and WM). as I work some where around HSBC at Raffles Place, I decided to take a bus down during lunch hour at the Fullerton bus stop. But as I look at the bus guide, no bus to Mohamad sultan, no bus to Havelock, no bus to RV too!!!.
But for those whom say that buy RG already where got take public transport one....I will rest my case then.
Have a great week ahead all.
Gordon Yuen
22-03-09, 23:19
I totally agree. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this forum keeps bad mouthing RG and compare with Cosmo when they earlier said they wanted to buy RG. Probably some hidden agenda involved.
Take it easy lah, ppl here bascially bad mouthing every project.
Imagine the swimming pool when all 550 units are occupied. One will definately find lesser crowd at river valley swimming pool....
Imagine the swimming pool when all 550 units are occupied. One will definately find lesser crowd at river valley swimming pool....
certainly....if that pool is still open...
Any body knows what's the mthly maintenance for a 3 bedroom unit at RG ? I have asked a few agents last 2 days but no one can give me a confirmed answer.
Quite naturally, I asked could it be just only one unit and not a market/development wide phenonmenon.... he then went on to say how much demand there has been and how the economy will be turning around in 3 months time. I must say, I almost fainted when I heard the economy part.
bear rally in 3 months time yes i believe, but turnaround? ahhaha!
I totally agree. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this forum keeps bad mouthing RG and compare with Cosmo when they earlier said they wanted to buy RG. Probably some hidden agenda involved.
have not seen the finishing of RG, but Cosmo finishing is nice ~:)
I totally agree. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this forum keeps bad mouthing RG and compare with Cosmo when they earlier said they wanted to buy RG. Probably some hidden agenda involved.
its ok, they are just offering another point of view and they do not appear to bad mouth RG just for the sake of it. generally, smaller developments are a little more exclusive than large developments. i think the finishing of Cosmo is better than RG but for families, RG might be more interesting because of the facilities and huge landscape. i guess it appeals to different folks.
best is to buy one in Cosmo and one in RG :D
I have been investing in the Robertson area and have always had no problems with finding expat tenants. You need to spend a bit to do up your apartment and then you will find quality tenants who will pay what you are asking for.
Just like in any business, you need to be better than your competitors
i12buyhouse
23-03-09, 14:33
Hi DW:
Look at the equity market , peoples rush to buy when price go up fast and rush to sell when price come down quick. However , when ever there big offer in super market (Giant & NTUC) , peoples will queue behind the door before it open. The differences between these 2 market are investment vs consumption (own stay) .
Property investment has the element of both. Those unit on Central Region like RG would have more investment characteristic, that explain why it go up fast and come down fast as compare to others sub urban units which are mainly owner stay.
As u look at the chart that u provided, huge transaction recorded during the bloom time. But very little transaction recorded in the last 6-8 months when indicative market value plunge from 2000+psf to current level at about 1050-1100psf. Hence , reduction of the price may not attract buyer for investment property. But movement of price will be very elastic for mass market property like HDB and sub urban private housing.
But, before the RG's market clear to the level of 850psf, all the buyers of 1100psf, 1000psf, 950psf..... till 860psf must first be exhausted before prices can reach 850psf. My query is, what is everyone's view on how many of these marginal buyers the RG market has to clear, before the price can reach 850psf ?
I think my question delves a little more than just price levels, but I am just wondering how many more units has to "go" before we can hit the 850psf. I am keen to get RG at a price above 850psf but I just want to hear some consensus on the same, just to get a rough feel or idea.
Any ideas ??"
bargain hunter
23-03-09, 16:55
I stay near the area. You really gotta enjoy walking to stay at RG or some parts of River valley area for that matter. On a seperate thread, I had mentioned that if you divide the land area by the number of units at Cosmo and likewise for RG, it is actually more dense to stay in Cosmo than RG. Most pple will say, u can't calculate that way, but just think about it, what are the chances that u will find a smaller and thinner 40m lap pool at Cosmo crowded than the huge pool at RG crowded?
Back to walking distance. I agree, that you will need to like to walk more than average to like RG. You work at near HSBC at Raffles Place? I work near there too and I stay further than RG in terms of walking distance. Still, I walk to work and back home. I reckon it will take 15 to 20mins to walk to raffles place from RG, depending on walking pace. Nonetheless, I can tell u that it is a very pleasant walking experience, very different from the average point to point walk. It is a direct route along the Singapore River, passing by all the shops and food establishments along Robertson and Clarke Quay followed by parliament house. No traffic lights, no roads to cross, just a smooth walking route all the way. Try walking to RG from your workplace after work, you will enjoy it. RG's nearest MRT is somerset, which is about 900m away. Similarly, Cosmo is about 900m away from Orchard MRT. If you are talking about alighting from a bus to get to Cosmo along Kim Seng Rd, you can alight 2 bus stops later at Zouk's bus stop to get to Rivergate. After Zouk, cross the river and you reach rivergate already.
I like RG's location a lot more than Cosmo. Why stay beside a busy cross junction when u can stay beside a peaceful river?
Bro, dun think they are bad mouthing lah....some of the comments are quite valid. Like the huge number of units vis-a-vis Cosmo. Moreover, Cosmo loction is definately way better that RG. A few weeks ago went doen to reckee Pacific Mansion cos there's was a hot thread about it in this forum some time then, already not convemient to walk to PM. let alone RG (which i continue to walk down).
There is also this incident whereby I want to go down and check it out on Watermark (again due to the forum response comparing RG and WM). as I work some where around HSBC at Raffles Place, I decided to take a bus down during lunch hour at the Fullerton bus stop. But as I look at the bus guide, no bus to Mohamad sultan, no bus to Havelock, no bus to RV too!!!.
But for those whom say that buy RG already where got take public transport one....I will rest my case then.
Have a great week ahead all.
bargain hunter
23-03-09, 19:27
Take it easy lah, ppl here bascially bad mouthing every project.
yeah, all these buyers, think by bad mouthing, they can talk down the price until they can buy. From experience, I can tell, it doesn't work, just a waste of time. Isn't it better to just spend their time to do research and make a bid at a price that they are comfortable with? why bother guessing how low it will go? If they are not comfortable with the price, just wait till it falls to a price that they are comfortable in getting in. When the price gets there, then decide whether you want to buy or not. It's not like the stock market where prices change every day.
i believe the pool at RG will be more crowded than Cosmo, unless many units of RG are left vacant.
Hi DW:
Look at the equity market , peoples rush to buy when price go up fast and rush to sell when price come down quick. However , when ever there big offer in super market (Giant & NTUC) , peoples will queue behind the door before it open. The differences between these 2 market are investment vs consumption (own stay) .
Property investment has the element of both. Those unit on Central Region like RG would have more investment characteristic, that explain why it go up fast and come down fast as compare to others sub urban units which are mainly owner stay.
As u look at the chart that u provided, huge transaction recorded during the bloom time. But very little transaction recorded in the last 6-8 months when indicative market value plunge from 2000+psf to current level at about 1050-1100psf. Hence , reduction of the price may not attract buyer for investment property. But movement of price will be very elastic for mass market property like HDB and sub urban private housing.
Dear i12bh,
Thanks for your views. I appreciate your point on "movement of price will be very elastic for mass market property like HDB and sub urban private housing" - which brings me to another question. Assuming price of RG falls to sub-1000psf, would it not then be very affordable by most mass market dwellers, resulting in a flood of these sub-1000psf buyers coming into RG and thereby providing some form of price support at that point in time. Perhaps then, the question would be, at what price would RG of 545 units be able to support before the mass market buyers start coming in.
bargain hunter
23-03-09, 20:37
i believe the pool at RG will be more crowded than Cosmo, unless many units of RG are left vacant.
Cosmo:
228 apartments on 113,000 sq ft of land, 40m lap pool (D), tiny Jacuzzi (E). Small children's pool (K).
http://www.wheelockproperties.com.sg/residential/portfolio/cosmopolitan/siteplan.html
RG:
545 units on 323,653 sq ft of land, huge swimming pool (E), already twice the size of Cosmo's pool. Children's pool (N). Infinity Edge pool (C), Jacuzzi (D), Jacuzzi lounge (Q), Hot tub (P), Spa jets (R).
http://www.rivergate.com.sg/index2.html (Click on Garden and select Site Plan at the top of that page)
Just the land area and the many other facilities available will already be sufficient to divert people to other activities, let alone the total water based activity area that is easily 3 times the size of Cosmo's. A little more than 2 times the number of units of Cosmo but almost 3 times the land area, Its pretty clear which has a higher density doesn't it? Definitely you will see more people in the pool at RG, but you will feel that it is more crowded swimming in the Cosmo pool, I feel.
Take it easy lah, ppl here bascially bad mouthing every project.
agree agree. ALL, 100% all projects are kena left and right in this forum. haha, this is the most interesting part of this forum, you can see certain members (those sure know who they are) can go around to almost every project and talk bad about it. hehe.. Take it as reading comics ..:)
bargain hunter
23-03-09, 20:51
its ok, they are just offering another point of view and they do not appear to bad mouth RG just for the sake of it. generally, smaller developments are a little more exclusive than large developments. i think the finishing of Cosmo is better than RG but for families, RG might be more interesting because of the facilities and huge landscape. i guess it appeals to different folks.
best is to buy one in Cosmo and one in RG :D
I agree that Cosmo has better finishing than RG. Actually, other than the colour of the wardrobes which looks a bit dated, the other finishes are really quite good for RG. Indeed, RG would appeal more to families for the reason you stated. Does that mean 3 and 4 bedrooms at RG would be more attractive than the 2 bedders? :)
bargain hunter
23-03-09, 20:56
Any body knows what's the mthly maintenance for a 3 bedroom unit at RG ? I have asked a few agents last 2 days but no one can give me a confirmed answer.
Surprisingly, a 4 bedder pays only $350 in maintenance it seems. Don't listen to some crap people who say 3 bedders already pay $500 in maintenance.
i12buyhouse
23-03-09, 21:42
The price will stabilize until the following situation
(a) most of the buyers are owner who wanted to stay there
(b) a market with readily available tenants and sustainable rental rate
Dear i12bh,
Thanks for your views. I appreciate your point on "movement of price will be very elastic for mass market property like HDB and sub urban private housing" - which brings me to another question. Assuming price of RG falls to sub-1000psf, would it not then be very affordable by most mass market dwellers, resulting in a flood of these sub-1000psf buyers coming into RG and thereby providing some form of price support at that point in time. Perhaps then, the question would be, at what price would RG of 545 units be able to support before the mass market buyers start coming in.
yeah, all these buyers, think by bad mouthing, they can talk down the price until they can buy. From experience, I can tell, it doesn't work, just a waste of time. Isn't it better to just spend their time to do research and make a bid at a price that they are comfortable with? why bother guessing how low it will go? If they are not comfortable with the price, just wait till it falls to a price that they are comfortable in getting in. When the price gets there, then decide whether you want to buy or not. It's not like the stock market where prices change every day.
Which property here was not being bad mouth? I want to buy... hehe...
Not possible as every property has its own strength and weakness with every different buyers who has different agenda.
Gordon Yuen
24-03-09, 08:47
Which property here was not being bad mouth? I want to buy... hehe...
Not possible as every property has its own strength and weakness with every different buyers who has different agenda.
Yes, every project has its strengths and weaknesses. But I notice there are few here always like to go around and make damaging instead of constructive comments.
bargain hunter
24-03-09, 08:54
Yes, every project has its strengths and weaknesses. But I notice there are few here always like to go around and make damaging instead of constructive comments.
that's what i meant. For eg just for rivergate, some people who explicitly said they want to buy are also the ones who say its overcrowded, poor location etc. Indeed, every project or even every individual unit has its owns strengths and weaknesses and different people would value differently according to personal preferences.
Property_Owner
24-03-09, 10:59
I stay near the area. You really gotta enjoy walking to stay at RG or some parts of River valley area for that matter. On a seperate thread, I had mentioned that if you divide the land area by the number of units at Cosmo and likewise for RG, it is actually more dense to stay in Cosmo than RG. Most pple will say, u can't calculate that way, but just think about it, what are the chances that u will find a smaller and thinner 40m lap pool at Cosmo crowded than the huge pool at RG crowded?
Back to walking distance. I agree, that you will need to like to walk more than average to like RG. You work at near HSBC at Raffles Place? I work near there too and I stay further than RG in terms of walking distance. Still, I walk to work and back home. I reckon it will take 15 to 20mins to walk to raffles place from RG, depending on walking pace. Nonetheless, I can tell u that it is a very pleasant walking experience, very different from the average point to point walk. It is a direct route along the Singapore River, passing by all the shops and food establishments along Robertson and Clarke Quay followed by parliament house. No traffic lights, no roads to cross, just a smooth walking route all the way. Try walking to RG from your workplace after work, you will enjoy it. RG's nearest MRT is somerset, which is about 900m away. Similarly, Cosmo is about 900m away from Orchard MRT. If you are talking about alighting from a bus to get to Cosmo along Kim Seng Rd, you can alight 2 bus stops later at Zouk's bus stop to get to Rivergate. After Zouk, cross the river and you reach rivergate already.
I like RG's location a lot more than Cosmo. Why stay beside a busy cross junction when u can stay beside a peaceful river?
Just visited a friend's unit last weekend. Omg, view is very nice. Sitting at the balcony in the evening looking at the river feels so romantic with my wife. Add a bottle of wine will be perfect. :cheers1:
There will always be ppl here who speaks with a hidden agenda. BTW, spoken to a few RG owners and most wanted to move in and stay. Not difficult to understand since its such a nice project.
proud owner
24-03-09, 11:03
that's what i meant. For eg just for rivergate, some people who explicitly said they want to buy are also the ones who say its overcrowded, poor location etc. Indeed, every project or even every individual unit has its owns strengths and weaknesses and different people would value differently according to personal preferences.
hush hush just heard Lippo trying to sell one block of RG at 980 psf ...
Property_Owner
24-03-09, 11:07
hush hush just heard Lippo trying to sell one block of RG at 980 psf ...
Bro, serious? Too bad my wife ban me from buying, kena lecture from RG all the way back home after I told her we can get one unit to drink wine at the balcony every evening. :banghead:
proud owner
24-03-09, 11:11
Bro, serious? Too bad my wife ban me from buying, kena lecture from RG all the way back home after I told her we can get one unit to drink wine at the balcony every evening. :banghead:
dont ask me for the source of this 'info' ...
i stayed clear of this tread as much as possible cos i first heard about Ferrel involvement sometime ago and apparently people think i spread rumor .. but i do not wish to get my source into any trouble ...
as for lippo ... i just heard it ..this morning
Gordon Yuen
24-03-09, 11:27
dont ask me for the source of this 'info' ...
i stayed clear of this tread as much as possible cos i first heard about Ferrel involvement sometime ago and apparently people think i spread rumor .. but i do not wish to get my source into any trouble ...
as for lippo ... i just heard it ..this morning
But you have already spread another rumor :tsk-tsk:
i12buyhouse
24-03-09, 11:33
Ferrell Investment is onwed by Lippo....
Agent pls contact me if this is truth... wish to buy 2 units.
dont ask me for the source of this 'info' ...
i stayed clear of this tread as much as possible cos i first heard about Ferrel involvement sometime ago and apparently people think i spread rumor .. but i do not wish to get my source into any trouble ...
as for lippo ... i just heard it ..this morning
proud owner
24-03-09, 11:38
But you have already spread another rumor :tsk-tsk:
only time will tell .. like i said you can check with EVERY agent ...they will tell you NO WAY ..
thats simply becos they dont have ONE BLK equivalent of buyers ..
that price is for someone who can buy the entire block ...
proud owner
24-03-09, 12:09
Ferrell Investment is onwed by Lippo....
Agent pls contact me if this is truth... wish to buy 2 units.
anyone who attempts to contact ferrel or lippo directly to buy at 980 psf wil be turned away ...
they want to sell 1 block at a go, not 1+ 2 + x +h +z+ g+h ..... = one block ...
know what i mean ... ??
bargain hunter
24-03-09, 12:17
hush hush just heard Lippo trying to sell one block of RG at 980 psf ...
i thought this rumour has been ongoing for months? People talk from 980 to 700psf and wasting everybody's time. Now you want to start one more round of that? Btw, there are only 3 blocks at RG and Lippo/Ferrell does not own any 1 block. It owns units in all 3 blocks but has more than half of its units in 1 block.
proud owner
24-03-09, 12:36
i thought this rumour has been ongoing for months? People talk from 980 to 700psf and wasting everybody's time. Now you want to start one more round of that? Btw, there are only 3 blocks at RG and Lippo/Ferrell does not own any 1 block. It owns units in all 3 blocks but has more than half of its units in 1 block.
sorry if you think i am trying to start rumour
case close ...
Property_Owner
24-03-09, 12:37
Guys relax. Don't fight please. :)
Surprisingly, a 4 bedder pays only $350 in maintenance it seems. Don't listen to some crap people who say 3 bedders already pay $500 in maintenance.
wow that's one of the advantageous of staying in large developments. cosmo i was told is already $500+ for a 2 bedroom. newton and river valley areas already a few smallish condos (about 200+ units) paying $500+ for 2-3 bedrooms.
Cosmo:
228 apartments on 113,000 sq ft of land, 40m lap pool (D), tiny Jacuzzi (E). Small children's pool (K).
http://www.wheelockproperties.com.sg/residential/portfolio/cosmopolitan/siteplan.html
RG:
545 units on 323,653 sq ft of land, huge swimming pool (E), already twice the size of Cosmo's pool. Children's pool (N). Infinity Edge pool (C), Jacuzzi (D), Jacuzzi lounge (Q), Hot tub (P), Spa jets (R).
http://www.rivergate.com.sg/index2.html (Click on Garden and select Site Plan at the top of that page)
Just the land area and the many other facilities available will already be sufficient to divert people to other activities, let alone the total water based activity area that is easily 3 times the size of Cosmo's. A little more than 2 times the number of units of Cosmo but almost 3 times the land area, Its pretty clear which has a higher density doesn't it? Definitely you will see more people in the pool at RG, but you will feel that it is more crowded swimming in the Cosmo pool, I feel.
logically that is correct. what i meant was if you go to cosmo and stay there for a week or so, you will realise the pool is hardly used by anyone...chances are you will have the pool to yourself. for RG, its likely to be more heavily used. so different strokes for different folks. some like crowded pools so they can gawk at pretty folks :) and some like underutilised pools so they have it to themselves with more privacy. not a matter of which is better, just a matter of choice.
that's what i meant. For eg just for rivergate, some people who explicitly said they want to buy are also the ones who say its overcrowded, poor location etc. Indeed, every project or even every individual unit has its owns strengths and weaknesses and different people would value differently according to personal preferences.
actually, some comments like overcrowded is valid if compared to say cosmo. also, its not wrong of buyers to say those things and yet still be keen to buy. eg. generally cosmo asking price is higher compared to RG, so even if one were to prefer cosmo slightly for various reasons, may still end up buying RG for cost reasons - maintenance fee is one factor with cosmo charging a fair bit higher.
logically that is correct. what i meant was if you go to cosmo and stay there for a week or so, you will realise the pool is hardly used by anyone...chances are you will have the pool to yourself. for RG, its likely to be more heavily used. so different strokes for different folks. some like crowded pools so they can gawk at pretty folks :) and some like underutilised pools so they have it to themselves with more privacy. not a matter of which is better, just a matter of choice.
my own experience, up to 400 units is about the limit, the pool is not crowded except on the occasional weekends, holidays etc.
thats why cant imagine those developements with 600 or 700 units how the pool situation is like... :beats-me-man:
proud owner
24-03-09, 12:53
my own experience, up to 400 units is about the limit, the pool is not crowded except on the occasional weekends, holidays etc.
thats why cant imagine those developements with 600 or 700 units how the pool situation is like... :beats-me-man:
as with all new projects...the pool / bbq always full in the first 6mths of TOP ... it will die off ... or residents find ways to aviod it ...
you will soon notice .. mornings and weekend are crowded with children ...
and most adults swim in the night to avoid collision with kids ...
soon it doesnt look crowded anymore
all agent will promote on good points and hide all bad points
they telling white lies.....
If we agent one day , Im sure we will do the same as them lor
The key points is do your homework....
all agent will promote on good points and hide all bad points
they telling white lies.....
If we agent one day , Im sure we will do the same as them lor
The key points is do your homework....
Hi Acer, I beg to differ ur point. No doubt there are some black sheeps in the mkt but buyers these days are much more property-savy compared to the past. With the internet, u can almost find all the historical transactions n data relevant to the properties u want to buy. At the end of the day, it's all about your budget and how much u want the own a unit in the specific project. Agents are supposed to facilitate in the paperwork & bank loan + lawyer process & btw, some places when u step into the project, agents dun even need to say one word. The project auto-sells by itself. It's to the extent that u jus want to take ur cheque book out to offer without the agt even saying one word. But of cos, buying a property is not like buying one loaf of bread...u still have to take a bit of time to do ur own research. After all, it's ur money u are spending ;)
I saw someone mentioned it takes 15-20mins to walk to RG from raffles place. well, my son's school is just beside RG and i walked from raffles place mrt few days back.
IT TOOK ME 25 mins and i was walking at a very fast pace along the river. And i mean fast pace, not your leisurely kind of walk. It was already quite cooling that day and i was already sweating like fish when i reached RG!
Don't believe me, just try for yourself one day. Don't come and arga arga what 15-20 mins.
15 mins or 25mins wun make a difference, bottomline is if you freaking walk in SG on a hot sun, 10mins is enuff to make you sweat like a pig unless it is a sheltered 25mins walk. At the very least the walking dist. to any convenient location like MRT, shopping mall should ideally be <=5mins to justify for its premium location even though i have no problem tahan 25mins walk in the sun
Tthe fastest and easiest way to get from raffles place to RG is to take a train to city hall, take 32 or 195 outside penisula plaza and then drop off at bus stop outside morningside and walk 5 mins down to RG.
All in, 25-30 mins but definately easier on your feet.
bargain hunter
26-03-09, 23:40
I saw someone mentioned it takes 15-20mins to walk to RG from raffles place. well, my son's school is just beside RG and i walked from raffles place mrt few days back.
IT TOOK ME 25 mins and i was walking at a very fast pace along the river. And i mean fast pace, not your leisurely kind of walk. It was already quite cooling that day and i was already sweating like fish when i reached RG!
Don't believe me, just try for yourself one day. Don't come and arga arga what 15-20 mins.
I walk to work and back every day, how can i not know that i only take 20 mins between RG and my workplace? However, note that my starting point for RG is the side gate beside Robertson bridge and not the main gate and definitely not from your son's River Valley Primary School. I cross the Alkaff Bridge and walk on the side of River Place, pass by Riverside Pt, Central, The riverwalk and boat Quay, reaches uob plaza in 20mins.
If you prefer to get there fast, then hit the roads, walk along North Canal Rd, Merchant Rd then start your walk from riverplace. I was just suggesting a more scenic route as an alternative if you do not want to cross roads and breathe the fumes of cars.
20 mins possible. But 15 mins? No way seriously unless half walk half run.
Anyways, the point is it's walkable but not a lot of people would like to walk for at least 40 mins to and fro everyday. Maybe some do but most wouldn't.
it is fun to walk 25 or 30 mins once in a while
but do it everyday soon you will hate it, even 10 min walk will complain or look for transport liao haha :o
bargain hunter
27-03-09, 09:27
20 mins possible. But 15 mins? No way seriously unless half walk half run.
Anyways, the point is it's walkable but not a lot of people would like to walk for at least 40 mins to and fro everyday. Maybe some do but most wouldn't.
I agree with you on this, that's why I said you really need to like to walk more than the average person if you are considering staying in RG and walking to raffles place in the earlier post. I timed it at 20mins on my average pace and 15mins if i walk quickly. Perhaps that day when you walk, you took the longer side of the river? Choosing the shortest route does make a difference because too many combinations are possible and if you walk on the wider side of the river, you are covering more ground.
You'd be surprised but if you walk like me daily, you see quite a number of people of all nationalities taking the river route, for those staying at Mirage, Robertson 100, The Quayside, Riverside 48 and The Pier and of course, River Place. Rivergate may be further than most of these developments but a small price to pay for skyscraper views (the nearer ones are all restricted to 12 floors and below).
bargain hunter
27-03-09, 09:33
it is fun to walk 25 or 30 mins once in a while
but do it everyday soon you will hate it, even 10 min walk will complain or look for transport liao haha :o
Hmm..I wonder if there will be a river taxi service to bring people to CBD when all the other developments like 8 Rodyk and The Inspira, Tribeca and Trillium are up. The current leisure cruise would take too long but maybe the operator will consider a speedier service when the population around the river grows.
proud owner
27-03-09, 09:54
I agree with you on this, that's why I said you really need to like to walk more than the average person if you are considering staying in RG and walking to raffles place in the earlier post. I timed it at 20mins on my average pace and 15mins if i walk quickly. Perhaps that day when you walk, you took the longer side of the river? Choosing the shortest route does make a difference because too many combinations are possible and if you walk on the wider side of the river, you are covering more ground.
You'd be surprised but if you walk like me daily, you see quite a number of people of all nationalities taking the river route, for those staying at Mirage, Robertson 100, The Quayside, Riverside 48 and The Pier and of course, River Place. Rivergate may be further than most of these developments but a small price to pay for skyscraper views (the nearer ones are all restricted to 12 floors and below).
when i was working in Manhattan ... which i will be, again by July this year, Ilived in 8th ave ..and i walked to my office at Park Ave .. 15 mins ...really nice and cool ... i no complain ...
but to walk 15 mins in spore's heat .. even 5 mins walk from Singland Tower to Golden Shoe is a chore ...
so the factor here is the 'weather' ...
proud owner
27-03-09, 09:56
Hmm..I wonder if there will be a river taxi service to bring people to CBD when all the other developments like 8 Rodyk and The Inspira, Tribeca and Trillium are up. The current leisure cruise would take too long but maybe the operator will consider a speedier service when the population around the river grows.
i doubt ... many moons ago ...they also said ..can take a boat from Tanjong Rhu to clifford pier ... now even the pier is gone ...
bargain hunter
27-03-09, 10:14
i doubt ... many moons ago ...they also said ..can take a boat from Tanjong Rhu to clifford pier ... now even the pier is gone ...
yeah, just a wild guess but at least there has been an existing service where the boats already travel from the Corpthone waterfront hotel to singapore flyer so the existing infrastructure is already there. all they need are faster (but hopefully not noisier) boats.
bargain hunter
27-03-09, 10:21
when i was working in Manhattan ... which i will be, again by July this year, Ilived in 8th ave ..and i walked to my office at Park Ave .. 15 mins ...really nice and cool ... i no complain ...
but to walk 15 mins in spore's heat .. even 5 mins walk from Singland Tower to Golden Shoe is a chore ...
so the factor here is the 'weather' ...
For the morning, the usual time i start my walk is around 8+ and in the evening, the reverse at 6+ or 7 so i find that the weather is ok for most part of the year except for the hotter than usual mid year season. Other times of the day of course it will be hotter, especially in the afternoon. Well, just my personal preference. For the people here who are probably more wealthy than i m, just drive, its only a 5mins drive to orchard or cbd.
proud owner
27-03-09, 10:21
yeah, just a wild guess but at least there has been an existing service where the boats already travel from the Corpthone waterfront hotel to singapore flyer so the existing infrastructure is already there. all they need are faster (but hopefully not noisier) boats.
would be nice though to have a river taxi service ... reminds me of recruit days ..ferrying between changi and tekong ...
bargain hunter
27-03-09, 10:28
would be nice though to have a river taxi service ... reminds me of recruit days ..ferrying between changi and tekong ...
Err...that's a giant ferry, not exactly the kind of boat which would fit into the singapore river.
the operator of the boats had upgraded its fleet and all look nice and touristy but not practical for daily usage. they'll need a new type of boat if they do want to run a rush hour river taxi service.
For the morning, the usual time i start my walk is around 8+ and in the evening, the reverse at 6+ or 7 so i find that the weather is ok for most part of the year except for the hotter than usual mid year season. Other times of the day of course it will be hotter, especially in the afternoon. Well, just my personal preference. For the people here who are probably more wealthy than i m, just drive, its only a 5mins drive to orchard or cbd.
not just heat also, we are in the tropics and that means big sun plus big rain, no mild weather like in temperate climate. If need to carry briefcase or laptop plus an umbrella, it will be very inconvenient. Once awhile is ok, if hv to do it everyday i dun think many people can tahan one. Best is still walk out a bit and take bus. :o
Bro, dun think they are bad mouthing lah....some of the comments are quite valid. Like the huge number of units vis-a-vis Cosmo. Moreover, Cosmo loction is definately way better that RG. A few weeks ago went doen to reckee Pacific Mansion cos there's was a hot thread about it in this forum some time then, already not convemient to walk to PM. let alone RG (which i continue to walk down).
There is also this incident whereby I want to go down and check it out on Watermark (again due to the forum response comparing RG and WM). as I work some where around HSBC at Raffles Place, I decided to take a bus down during lunch hour at the Fullerton bus stop. But as I look at the bus guide, no bus to Mohamad sultan, no bus to Havelock, no bus to RV too!!!.
But for those whom say that buy RG already where got take public transport one....I will rest my case then.
Have a great week ahead all.
Take river taxi :D from fullerton.
Hmm..I wonder if there will be a river taxi service to bring people to CBD when all the other developments like 8 Rodyk and The Inspira, Tribeca and Trillium are up. The current leisure cruise would take too long but maybe the operator will consider a speedier service when the population around the river grows.
I think it will be REALLY cool if there is a ferry transport service sending people from RV area down the river to Raffles Place!! So idyllic!!
errr.. if I was rushing to work, last thing I want is idyllic... the speedier the boat the better
bargain hunter
28-03-09, 07:47
There already is an Idyllic service. When the critical mass comes up in a few years time, maybe there will be the speedier service. Did anyone notice that RG already has its own "dock" where people can board and alight from boats? Its located closer to Jiak Kim bridge than Robertson bridge I think.
I believe ferry is meant to be leisure and even if they want to speed it up.. they can't outdo the speed offered by land transportation.
Ferry is very applicable when it is used to transport people between islands ... maybe singapore to sentosa to Pulau Ubin to St John to Pulau Tekong to Whatever island we have...
Like in Sydney... a lot of people live in Manly Island ..and take ferry to/fro work..
But in Brisbane.. the ferry .. is along the river and you can see there is hardly a crowd since most would rather take a car...
Looks like prices are still in the $12xxpsf region.. went to see the 2rm layout and their kitchen layout and design is actually much better than the 3rm.. heard frm a few agents that there will be more key collections for the 2rms in #13/14 next wk
The respone for RG is very good. Many owners after collected keys decided to stay or rent. See some sellers asking for higher price now. Understand that some deals closed yesterday at higher than expected price. May be got to wait for all the owners to collect keys and than the price will stabilise.
The respone for RG is very good. Many owners after collected keys decided to stay or rent. See some sellers asking for higher price now. Understand that some deals closed yesterday at higher than expected price. May be got to wait for all the owners to collect keys and than the price will stabilise.
you will need to wait between 3 to 12 months (or even longer). That is when we will see people loose holding power. Off course some will get lucky. There are people who need to rent ASAP, so they cannot wait, so they take what is available. Then there are people who decide to stay (although who knows if this is by choice). Lets not forget the real morgage killer, interest rate increase. While not yet on the horizon it will happen sooner or later. If you are an investor you dont buy now. Buying now means you are speculating. Rental currently does not justify a 1200psf.
you will need to wait between 3 to 12 months (or even longer). That is when we will see people loose holding power. Off course some will get lucky. There are people who need to rent ASAP, so they cannot wait, so they take what is available. Then there are people who decide to stay (although who knows if this is by choice). Lets not forget the real morgage killer, interest rate increase. While not yet on the horizon it will happen sooner or later. If you are an investor you dont buy now. Buying now means you are speculating. Rental currently does not justify a 1200psf.
agree absolutely ~ :cool:
The respone for RG is very good. Many owners after collected keys decided to stay or rent. .
what a f..cking crap it is !!! " Owners after collecting the keys decided to stay" :))) You make me sick .. so according to you they lived on the streets prior to collecting the keys , and then ohh , what a f..king nice place it is why don't we stay in it .. rediculous ,, I beleive whoever the owners they would have decided a very very long time ago what they wanna do with this ..
Now open the paper , 3 bedders high floor asking 5k and I bet if you offer 4.5k they will go for it !! ( if they do not take 4.5k they will miss the boat sitting on empty unit and waiting a few month to catch another boat at 3.5k per month as supply is damn massive and demand lesser and lesser ) This 4.5k is just less then 2% yeild after agent's fee, property tax, maintenance , some minor renovations e.t.c. not even enough to service your mortgage !! and just wait for the interest to go up and then you are f..ked !! Negative yield !! At current unwrapping of the situation on ther market this project not worth even 1000 psf !! If you have some money buy Australian dollars while it still cheap and put on time deposit , you make 3% yield per annum , haveno obligations, no risks, you get currency appriciation when commodity pick up , and you are very liquid in case something hot comes on the market like even RG at 800psf in September!
qwertyuiop
30-03-09, 12:22
Nice try J-Dog in your analysis. Initially you mentioned that price for RG will free-fall to $800 by April-May. Then you pushed the dateline to June (as below), July-August (as below), then October-November (as below) and then finally to end of the year (as below). :doh: So what's next? By mid 2010?:tongue3:
Sometimes, it's good to have dreams:sleep: .
Ha-ha by April-May it will definetely drop to 800psf and even below !! Trust me !! Let's let the chance to a stupid buyers buy a few units at 1000psf and then we will take the rest $750-800 they will have no choice but to offload ..
They sold 100 units at $700 , they've been defaulted, got 20% deposit so as far as they are concerned even if they sell at 700 they still making profit of 20% !! Just wait everybody .. Now I am flooded with smses and emails regarding RG.. so too many units, to many keen sellers , too much supply coming to the market which will bring the price down, down, down !! How would you feel buying at 900psf realising the next month you could have bought it at 800psf ? :banghead:
I still can't beleive there are so many units on the market and prices are dropping and still some idiots paying 1200psf or may be agents are lieing .. It is suicide to buy at even anything above 1000psf .. You can t rent it for more then $3.5 psf per month .. just look into the paper and see what happenning with rental market !! say if you get lucky and rented a 2 bedder on a higher floor for 4k per month deduct $350 maintenance , property tax $400 agent's fee , and some sundry expenses you only left with less then 3k minus your mortgage so your yeild is just around 2% in a FALLING MARKET !!
Also I doubt you can get a tenant straight away , still need to market so will loose at least 1 month out ..
Realistically if someone really keen to buy that project for own stay it should be no more then 900psf now .. just wait and see it will be 800psf in June !!!
One has to be damn stupid to pay for RG more then 950psf in this market .. it will surely go down to 800-850 psf by July - August ..
Banks are not landing and asking for top ups , imagine if you a buyer and bought from a developer from 3rd stage at 1,200 psf and organised a loan depositing your last penny into it .. and now bank calls you and asks to top up before even you got TOP as valuation dropped to 1000psf and keeps falling .. also tenants all run to cheaper places like City Square Residences where they can rent a brand new Condo at around 2.5k per month .. it funny how all the cash disappeared from the market in a matter of a few month ..
I have a unit which was rented for 20k per month ,, now I would be struggling to rent same unit for 12k .. I think realistically it should be and it will be 900psf for the RG and less but this is retail to a public .. if such scheme can work and we collectively can buy 50 units then price should be 700-800psf
In this deflationary market , Cash is the king and they are being sucked by the banks and financial institutions with amazing rate , the cash drying up rapidly .. Soon there will be a very few buyers with cash to buy , expats less and less , businesses are suffering , pay cuts e.t.c., lay offs, rental rapidly going down .. 40,000 units to TOP and most of them will flood rental maret which is crazy weak now ..
just open a news paper .. Sail being offered for 2k per month , CSR - 2k per month can get for 2 bedrooms, Hillview can get 2 bedder for 1.3k per month all that half the price from what it would be a year ago .. Luxury rentals got hit the most , everyone downgrading to cheaper places to stay as no spare cash to spend .. and with RG there will be 500 too many units on the market .. This is only a tip of an iceberg ... I am damn sure if I wait till Oktober - November my dick will only get bigger after I buy at 700psf and have a very competitive advantage at renting at higher yeild and cheaper price .. :spliff:
Wow, exactly !! I have been trying since the start of this thread to tell all the forumers exactly the same thing. Why locals are so damn stupid to listen real estate agents ? They have nothing to say but bullshit you how bright the future is .. ANd how good the deal is we gonna close fr you . Look ahead of us .. It is so scary , lay offs, depressions, the market is falling and no signs of recovery , cash drying up , thousands of units yet to come to the market , expats are running away .. Do you call that bullish ?? I will cut my dick off if the RG will not come to 800psf before the end of the year !!! It is just so so stupid to buy at 1,100 just to get upset watching it's going down to 800 and then trying to rent out to no one ..
Nice try J-Dog in your analysis. Initially you mentioned that price for RG will free-fall to $800 by April-May. Then you pushed the dateline to June (as below), July-August (as below), then October-November (as below) and then finally to end of the year (as below). :doh: So what's next? By mid 2010?:tongue3:
Sometimes, it's good to have dreams:sleep: .
relax lah, even top economists and analysts make adjustments as time passes.
so he is more of a price pessimist, i don't see any issue here ~ :spliff:
If you have some money buy Australian dollars while it still cheap and put on time deposit , you make 3% yield per annum , haveno obligations, no risks, you get currency appriciation when commodity pick up , and you are very liquid in case something hot comes on the market like even RG at 800psf in September!
I am generally inclined to agree with J-Dog on the point of RG pricing. But having said this, I suspect some of the owners are already prepared to take the rental route, even if it means taking negative yield. These are two possible scenarios:-
Let’s assume this is the worse case scenario for owners – 3rd phase purchaser :
Assumptions:-
1507sf bought @ 1500psf = SGD2.26mio.
Loan amount (80%) = SGD1.8mio; tenor = 35 years. All-in rate for mortgage = 1.5%(SIBOR) + 1.0% (margin) = 2.5%
Mortgage payment monthly = SGD6.5K
Maintenance ~ SGD350 per month (I heard from agents. We assumed it at face value)
Monthly financial commitment of owner = 6850/1507 = 4.5psf per month
Rent Option – At a rental which will not cover monthly obligations
Rent out: Assuming mortgage and maintenance for the unit is 4.5psf per month (psfpm) - this works out to be about SGD6800 mortgage per month for a 1507 unit. Next, we assume rental for a 1507sf unit is 3psfpm (this works out to be SGD4500 rent per mth for the unit).
Net loss to the owner is (4.5-3)*12 = 18psf per year.
After two years, owner lose 36psf, on a standardised basis (i.e. psf).
This said, the above standardised loss (i.e. 36psf after 2 years), keeps the owner to retain ownership of the property after 2 years and thus he is still exposed to price risk of market two years later. If he takes the rental route, and after 36psf loss on his property, when he renews the rental contract, he would be continue to be exposed to further rental losses or sale loss (i.e. market risk).
Sell @ Loss Option
Sell: If the owner obtain the unit at the same price 1500psf. To achieve the same equivalent result as per the rental scenario, owner will sell at 1500-36 = 1464psf. If owner sells below 1464psf, he would be in effect in a worse off position if he had taken the rental route (assuming the rental numbers as accurate) - the benefit he gets is closing out his position on this property completely and not exposed to any further losses thereafter, no matter how the market moves. If the owner sells at 1392psf, the loss he made would be equivalent to having the unit empty for 2 years with no rental received at all. We all know if any owner tries to sell any RG units today, it will be way below 1392psf. However, this said, if the owner goes down the sale route, he will close out his position completely and not subject to any further loss, no matter how the market turns out thereafter.
Am I getting my logic wrong or did I miss something ?
Like most people here, I have a vested interest to “have” RG’s pricing to head downsouth (I thought it important to flag my interest in RG, and thus you apply your bias on my analysis accordingly). But, based on my layman assessment, it seems it may not be that easy to get owners to sell-down their RG’s units now at a huge loss. My understanding is that, it appears, owners, even by going with the "loss-making" rental (notwithstanding it is may not be able to cover monthly mortgage obligations) is able to preserve their positions, by taking small monthly losses, without having to realize huge upfront losses. Though they may be yielding gradual (~36psf over two years) losses over two years, they may find comfort that
(i) its something quite small on a monthly basis and
(ii) they look to the future in hope of getting it back when the market turns around.
If my estimates above is roughly correct, a 1.5psf per month loss (i.e. say 1507 * 1.5psf per mth = SGD2,260per month) is something which they will have to contend with – cash outflow of SGD2.3K per month so as to keep their ship afloat. They probably prefer this than to realize few hundred thousand loss at one go - sell now at a loss, potentially huge one now?
It may be I am missing something completely or have gotten the fundamental property financing math wrong. Please enlighten me on the same and am happy to learn more (or correct my misconception).
Thanks in advance.
qwertyuiop
30-03-09, 12:44
Yup. I'll just wait and see.
Btw, I'm not an agent.
relax lah, even top economists and analysts make adjustments as time passes.
so he is more of a price pessimist, i don't see any issue here ~ :spliff:
Well, the bottom line it is a falling market and there is only one way down , fisrt of all May has not come yet and secondly it will happen more towards the end of the year, but Thanks for following me and inthoughtful studies of my postings :)))
Dear DW, you have not counted the property tax of 10% , agent's commies, cost of renovations ( how are you going to rent ? with bare wires hanging off the ceiling ? no drapes ? e.t.c. there is cost to it ) so if they go by rental path the losses would be much greater then you think , providing they lucky to get a tenant quick which is not easy . Also , providing they have enough cash flow to top up 2.5-3k per month to feed the mortgage. Providing , the nterest rate stays low , Providing the rental market and property prices will not go further down ( which I have view they will ) if all these "Providing" do not meet the ends and one of those go sour .. there might be a possibility of repossession which is really awfull thing to have when someone looses half of their life's savings.. Hope , they never face such a turn..
Of course if the cost so high , one has to fight for your asset and do everything imaginable , the other option to short , to buy cheaper and of the year , but if your cost as tower 93 1000psf I would rather sell while can fetch 1,150 still makng profit !
Let’s assume this is the worse case scenario for owners – 3rd phase purchaser :
Assumptions:-
1507sf bought @ 1500psf = SGD2.26mio.
Loan amount (80%) = SGD1.8mio; tenor = 35 years. All-in rate for mortgage = 1.5%(SIBOR) + 1.0% (margin) = 2.5%
Mortgage payment monthly = SGD6.5K
Maintenance ~ SGD350 per month (I heard from agents. We assumed it at face value)
Monthly financial commitment of owner = 6850/1507 = 4.5psf per month
If my estimates above is roughly correct, a 1.5psf per month loss (i.e. say 1507 * 1.5psf per mth = SGD2,260per month) is something which they will have to contend with – cash outflow of SGD2.3K per month so as to keep their ship afloat. They probably prefer this than to realize few hundred thousand loss at one go - sell now at a loss, potentially huge one now?
Hi DW
I am not a expert but I think your calculations make sense.
However, the numbers are dependent on the bank loan of 80% going through.
Well according to what they are saying, the valuation of RG has gone down tremendously. I dont know if it has reached the 900psf as quoted but if I am a banker, I will reconsider the risk profile and assess accordingly.
Assuming a drop in valuation till 1200psf. The max exposure is $1,446,720 (80% of $1200 x 1507sf).
Given the loan of $1.8 million, the bank may ask the owner to top up the difference, thereby effectively realising this loss of few hundred thousand.
It may make sense to hold the property and suffer smaller quantum of monthly losses. but only when the circumstances allows you to. Maybe most of us here are waiting for such drastic / desparate moves by owners to pick up units at bargain price.
i12buyhouse
30-03-09, 18:09
Fully agree.
The danger of keeping the unit is not on covering loan installment. Whoever bought RG without holding power of financing their loan at least 12 months ahead are really playing fire. Hen , I don't think RG owner have any issue on rental for loan.
Let assume Owner bought a 1500sf unit at $1500psf
Unit price : 2.25mil
80% loan entitlement : 1.8mil
Assume current valuation @$1200psf , Owner need to top up cash 0.36 mil
Let assume 3 month later , valuation @ 1000psf ,owner need to top up another 0.24mil
Assuming that J-Dog is right (I hope so) , valuation drop till $800psf six months from now, owner top up another 0.24 mil.
At this point of time , owner need to have cash of close to 1 mil to keep his dream house.
Hi DW
I am not a expert but I think your calculations make sense.
However, the numbers are dependent on the bank loan of 80% going through.
Well according to what they are saying, the valuation of RG has gone down tremendously. I dont know if it has reached the 900psf as quoted but if I am a banker, I will reconsider the risk profile and assess accordingly.
Assuming a drop in valuation till 1200psf. The max exposure is $1,446,720 (80% of $1200 x 1507sf).
Given the loan of $1.8 million, the bank may ask the owner to top up the difference, thereby effectively realising this loss of few hundred thousand.
It may make sense to hold the property and suffer smaller quantum of monthly losses. but only when the circumstances allows you to. Maybe most of us here are waiting for such drastic / desparate moves by owners to pick up units at bargain price.
bargain hunter
30-03-09, 19:29
Nice try J-Dog in your analysis. Initially you mentioned that price for RG will free-fall to $800 by April-May. Then you pushed the dateline to June (as below), July-August (as below), then October-November (as below) and then finally to end of the year (as below). :doh: So what's next? By mid 2010?:tongue3:
Sometimes, it's good to have dreams:sleep: .
at least he bet his dick on it for the oct/nov/dec ones...something for forumers to look forward to.
There is also another class of investor to consider. The ones who invest in property without a morgage (individuals, funds etc..). They might need cash so they liquidate, or they have discovered a better performing investment and decide to sell their property in Singapore which is an underperforming asset.
very insightful analysis by all. thanks for sharing.
guess a simple analogy is like buying shares using loans. some die die refuse to lose money and hang on hoping prices will pick up later. problem with that is if the market moves further south, one has to top up the loan amount or face forced selling.
the longer one hopes, and the longer they refused to liquidate, the downside could be they stand to lose even more, even their pants ;)
bargain hunter
30-03-09, 20:27
Technically, your "loss" under the rent assumption is not exactly a loss. More correctly, its the amount that needs to be topped up. Out of the 4.5k rental received, part of it goes to interest payment and part of it goes to repay the principal. The part that goes to the interest payment is the real "loss", while the part that goes to the principal is actually helping the owner to reduce his loan.
Given that bank valuations tend to be around 1200psf, its even harder for those owners which bought high to sell. Thus, you are right about more people opting for the rental option, likely the worst units will go for 4.5k ultimately after many months vacant. So far, 3 bedders with good facing have been able to secure 6 to 6.5k (stack 3 and 5) and 4 bedders (stack 6 and 10) still managing to secure 8 to 8.5k for the good ones so can use that as the peak benchmark. Rents should be weaker for the rest coming up.
I am generally inclined to agree with J-Dog on the point of RG pricing. But having said this, I suspect some of the owners are already prepared to take the rental route, even if it means taking negative yield. These are two possible scenarios:-
Let’s assume this is the worse case scenario for owners – 3rd phase purchaser :
Assumptions:-
1507sf bought @ 1500psf = SGD2.26mio.
Loan amount (80%) = SGD1.8mio; tenor = 35 years. All-in rate for mortgage = 1.5%(SIBOR) + 1.0% (margin) = 2.5%
Mortgage payment monthly = SGD6.5K
Maintenance ~ SGD350 per month (I heard from agents. We assumed it at face value)
Monthly financial commitment of owner = 6850/1507 = 4.5psf per month
Rent Option – At a rental which will not cover monthly obligations
Rent out: Assuming mortgage and maintenance for the unit is 4.5psf per month (psfpm) - this works out to be about SGD6800 mortgage per month for a 1507 unit. Next, we assume rental for a 1507sf unit is 3psfpm (this works out to be SGD4500 rent per mth for the unit).
Net loss to the owner is (4.5-3)*12 = 18psf per year.
After two years, owner lose 36psf, on a standardised basis (i.e. psf).
This said, the above standardised loss (i.e. 36psf after 2 years), keeps the owner to retain ownership of the property after 2 years and thus he is still exposed to price risk of market two years later. If he takes the rental route, and after 36psf loss on his property, when he renews the rental contract, he would be continue to be exposed to further rental losses or sale loss (i.e. market risk).
Sell @ Loss Option
Sell: If the owner obtain the unit at the same price 1500psf. To achieve the same equivalent result as per the rental scenario, owner will sell at 1500-36 = 1464psf. If owner sells below 1464psf, he would be in effect in a worse off position if he had taken the rental route (assuming the rental numbers as accurate) - the benefit he gets is closing out his position on this property completely and not exposed to any further losses thereafter, no matter how the market moves. If the owner sells at 1392psf, the loss he made would be equivalent to having the unit empty for 2 years with no rental received at all. We all know if any owner tries to sell any RG units today, it will be way below 1392psf. However, this said, if the owner goes down the sale route, he will close out his position completely and not subject to any further loss, no matter how the market turns out thereafter.
Am I getting my logic wrong or did I miss something ?
Like most people here, I have a vested interest to “have” RG’s pricing to head downsouth (I thought it important to flag my interest in RG, and thus you apply your bias on my analysis accordingly). But, based on my layman assessment, it seems it may not be that easy to get owners to sell-down their RG’s units now at a huge loss. My understanding is that, it appears, owners, even by going with the "loss-making" rental (notwithstanding it is may not be able to cover monthly mortgage obligations) is able to preserve their positions, by taking small monthly losses, without having to realize huge upfront losses. Though they may be yielding gradual (~36psf over two years) losses over two years, they may find comfort that
(i) its something quite small on a monthly basis and
(ii) they look to the future in hope of getting it back when the market turns around.
If my estimates above is roughly correct, a 1.5psf per month loss (i.e. say 1507 * 1.5psf per mth = SGD2,260per month) is something which they will have to contend with – cash outflow of SGD2.3K per month so as to keep their ship afloat. They probably prefer this than to realize few hundred thousand loss at one go - sell now at a loss, potentially huge one now?
It may be I am missing something completely or have gotten the fundamental property financing math wrong. Please enlighten me on the same and am happy to learn more (or correct my misconception).
Thanks in advance.
very insightful analysis by all. thanks for sharing.
guess a simple analogy is like buying shares using loans. some die die refuse to lose money and hang on hoping prices will pick up later. problem with that is if the market moves further south, one has to top up the loan amount or face forced selling.
the longer one hopes, and the longer they refused to liquidate, the downside could be they stand to lose even more, even their pants ;)
yup very apt example :)
of course there is a school of thought that local banks are unlikely to request for a top up, when valuation falls, if you have been steadily repaying your loan.
i have no personal experience on this so cannot comment.
if this is true, then such owners have no worries once the loan is approved.
bargain hunter
30-03-09, 20:31
you'd be surprised, but a low floor 4 bedder (not sure stack 1 or 2) was rented out bare for 7k. owner gets to keep the curtains, lights, fridge, washer and dryer after the 2 year lease is up, just for info.
Well, the bottom line it is a falling market and there is only one way down , fisrt of all May has not come yet and secondly it will happen more towards the end of the year, but Thanks for following me and inthoughtful studies of my postings :)))
Dear DW, you have not counted the property tax of 10% , agent's commies, cost of renovations ( how are you going to rent ? with bare wires hanging off the ceiling ? no drapes ? e.t.c. there is cost to it ) so if they go by rental path the losses would be much greater then you think , providing they lucky to get a tenant quick which is not easy . Also , providing they have enough cash flow to top up 2.5-3k per month to feed the mortgage. Providing , the nterest rate stays low , Providing the rental market and property prices will not go further down ( which I have view they will ) if all these "Providing" do not meet the ends and one of those go sour .. there might be a possibility of repossession which is really awfull thing to have when someone looses half of their life's savings.. Hope , they never face such a turn..
Of course if the cost so high , one has to fight for your asset and do everything imaginable , the other option to short , to buy cheaper and of the year , but if your cost as tower 93 1000psf I would rather sell while can fetch 1,150 still makng profit !
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/317807/for-sale-rivergate
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/317800/for-sale-rivergate
large units now advertised at 1100psf.
btw all you guys calculating rent, are presuming that rental income is immediate. As some people will not find tenants ASAP due to the amount of units and competition from other developments, their situation will get worse. They will have to service the morgage at TOP. I have a feeling that people who are invested in property in Singapore tend to own more than 1-2 units. So these people will suffer even more, even if they bought units in different developements (provided all where purchased after 2005).
bargain hunter
30-03-09, 20:51
Property loans do not work like you buy stocks on margin and keep having margin calls. You are not required to top up your loan everytime the valuation falls even if you are in negative equity. The important thing is to be able to keep servicing the monthly loan installment. You are only required to top up your loan when you want to refinance your property and find yourself unable to meet the valuation.
Fully agree.
The danger of keeping the unit is not on covering loan installment. Whoever bought RG without holding power of financing their loan at least 12 months ahead are really playing fire. Hen , I don't think RG owner have any issue on rental for loan.
Let assume Owner bought a 1500sf unit at $1500psf
Unit price : 2.25mil
80% loan entitlement : 1.8mil
Assume current valuation @$1200psf , Owner need to top up cash 0.36 mil
Let assume 3 month later , valuation @ 1000psf ,owner need to top up another 0.24mil
Assuming that J-Dog is right (I hope so) , valuation drop till $800psf six months from now, owner top up another 0.24 mil.
At this point of time , owner need to have cash of close to 1 mil to keep his dream house.
i12buyhouse
30-03-09, 21:09
Oh really...? I must sell my DBS , OUB and OCBC share liao... Thier exposure is damn high.
Property loans do not work like you buy stocks on margin and keep having margin calls. You are not required to top up your loan everytime the valuation falls even if you are in negative equity. The important thing is to be able to keep servicing the monthly loan installment. You are only required to top up your loan when you want to refinance your property and find yourself unable to meet the valuation.
yup very apt example :)
of course there is a school of thought that local banks are unlikely to request for a top up, when valuation falls, if you have been steadily repaying your loan.
i have no personal experience on this so cannot comment.
if this is true, then such owners have no worries once the loan is approved.
there are already many examples of "investors" who had been asked by their banks to top up loans, even those who had been paying promptly and who have lots of assets to their name ;)
banks are prudent, if valuation falls, they have to get borrowers top up unless the fall is negligible.
Property loans do not work like you buy stocks on margin and keep having margin calls. You are not required to top up your loan everytime the valuation falls even if you are in negative equity. The important thing is to be able to keep servicing the monthly loan installment. You are only required to top up your loan when you want to refinance your property and find yourself unable to meet the valuation.
i suggest you talk to some bankers before you give erroneous advice to the members here, it could result in some of them overstretching themselves and getting into financial difficulties. banks DO ask for topup EVEN IF you had been servicing your loans promptly.
Pls tell me which local bank WILL NOT ask for top up. Any shareholder can demand an explaination from them.
I can bet you no bank will tell you they will not ask for top ups. Don't be so naive...
what a f..cking crap it is !!! " Owners after collecting the keys decided to stay" :))) You make me sick .. so according to you they lived on the streets prior to collecting the keys , and then ohh , what a f..king nice place it is why don't we stay in it .. rediculous ,, I beleive whoever the owners they would have decided a very very long time ago what they wanna do with this ..
Now open the paper , 3 bedders high floor asking 5k and I bet if you offer 4.5k they will go for it !! ( if they do not take 4.5k they will miss the boat sitting on empty unit and waiting a few month to catch another boat at 3.5k per month as supply is damn massive and demand lesser and lesser ) This 4.5k is just less then 2% yeild after agent's fee, property tax, maintenance , some minor renovations e.t.c. not even enough to service your mortgage !! and just wait for the interest to go up and then you are f..ked !! Negative yield !! At current unwrapping of the situation on ther market this project not worth even 1000 psf !! If you have some money buy Australian dollars while it still cheap and put on time deposit , you make 3% yield per annum , haveno obligations, no risks, you get currency appriciation when commodity pick up , and you are very liquid in case something hot comes on the market like even RG at 800psf in September!
U miss the point. Before owners collected keys, they said they would sell. But after they collected the keys, they like the development so much so they decided to keep and stay instead. Some decided to rent for the moment and stay after that. They dont sleep on the street . Most are private pty owners. They later decided to move in to RG and rent the pty that they used to stay. Dont get sick...not worth :D
bargain hunter
30-03-09, 23:26
Cartman, Mezz72SG,
Do any of you own private properties at all?
Get the low-down on home loan top-ups
Banks don’t usually ask for fresh valuations despite price slide
WITH the slide in property prices and a looming long economic downturn, some borrowers may be forgiven if they harbour thoughts of getting calls from their banks to top up their home loans.
But banks told BT that as long as borrowers are current in their monthly loan instalments, they will not ask for fresh valuations which could then lead to a top-up.
A DBS Bank spokeswoman says a key consideration when granting loans is the repayment ability of the customer.
‘As such, when the customers are promptly servicing their monthly repayments, the bank will not usually require the customer to top-up the housing loan.’
Even those who took up loans on the deferred payment scheme (DPS) need not worry about the fall in the value of their homes, she says.
‘Customers who took up loans on the deferred payment scheme would have had the approval granted based on the valuations at the point of the submission of their loan applications. And likewise, the approval will take into account the repayment ability of the customer.
‘By the same token, when the loan is disbursed, as long as the customer can meet the monthly repayment amounts, the bank will not usually take any other course of action against the customer, even if valuations of these properties are now lower than that at the time of purchase.’
In reply of BT queries, a Monetary Authority of Singapore spokeswoman says non-performing housing loans are currently low.
‘While we expect these to rise, the increase will not be significant,’ she says.
‘Banks in Singapore do not generally repossess a property once a loan is in default. Repossession is usually a final step after exhausting other avenues with the borrower, such as restructuring the loan,’ she adds.
The MAS, however, does not intervene in such commercial decisions by the banks, she adds.
A United Overseas Bank spokeswoman says it is currently not the bank’s practice to require a fresh valuation for DPS properties.
DPS borrowers typically begin paying their instalments some two years after they bought their homes.
Some observers are expecting a rash of defaults on the part of DPS buyers when the properties are completed and loan drawdowns begin.
Vibha Coburn, Citibank’s head of secured finance solutions, says it is not the bank’s usual practice to ask for top-ups in the case of existing borrowers who are servicing their loans on an ongoing basis.
‘While we may conduct valuations on properties held within our loans portfolio, these would form part of our internal portfolio management and due diligence processes,’ she says.
The UOB spokeswoman says the bank periodically reviews its mortgage portfolio, including the update of property values.
Source : Business Times - 8 Dec 2008
Sorry, I guess I just woke up in bad mood .. :) Yes, for them to stay , they need to rent their pt property where they stay . I always do the same , when I buy something I like, I try to rent the new purchased place and the one I stay at the same time , whichever goes first , I stay in the one left. :) By that way you are doubling your chances.. :)
For those who think bank will not ask for top ups .. They might easily .. I was recently asked to top up as valuation dropped , at first I bugged them off but then they started to call everyday and damage my brain , eventually I topped up.. though I am on interest payments only .. could be why ..
Oh really...? I must sell my DBS , OUB and OCBC share liao... Thier exposure is damn high.
This is from my personal experience and observation. Banks may ask you to top up but I believe this is done on a best efforts basis and to the maximum extent the owner can do so (i.e. by exercising any set off rights the bank may have on their accounts and likewise).
Assuming you are Bank A (where A is a local bank), and you have a mortgage loan customer. This borrower is a good customer and has been paying his mortgage payments on time. LTV now falls to say 75%. You ask the customer to top up 5%. Customer says he has money to make the monthly mortgage paymetns but no money to top up the 5%. You discuss this a number of times with this customer, after 4 weeks, he is still not able to top up. Your next course of action available is then to exercise your right to enforce security, apply to the court for foreclosure on mortgage asset, extinguish the equity of redemption held by the owner, and power of sale (pursuant to the terms of the mortgage loan).
I do not think people are arguing if the banks will ask you to top up or not, the real question is if banks will really enforce security, file for foreclosure on the mortgage, apply to the courts to extinguish the equity right of redemption, and proceed to enforce their right to power of sale. The legal process typically will take quite a while, say 3-4 weeks. From the time the bank determines LTV is 75%, the Borrower refusal to top up (after multiple consultation), application to court for power of sale, and eventually reception of actual proceed of the sale (if they get to sell it off successfully), it will be quite a while. At that time, LTV may even be at about 65% or 60%. Banks then take a 15-20% write off.
Now, if you have a customer whom have originally been paying their mortgage payments on time, why would a bank want to go through this enforcement, in the process take up reputational risk, and credit write off. Once you enforce security and foreclose on the asset, you are effectively giving up on a paying customer whom have been satisfying his loan obligations but simply not able to top up the shortfall in LTV ??
If you are the credit committee of the bank, are you able to stand up to the argument of enforcing the security notwithstanding your customer has been making good on his mortgage payments; and considering the bank faces a highly likely prospect of loan write off (not even provisioning) if they take such an enforcemnet action given the time lag in process and prices in a falling market.
I am not sure how many of the forummers here have really been through a work-out situation with the liquidation counsels of a bank or is it just plain thoughts thinking aloud that banks will act or behave in a certain fashion.
Personally, I firmly believe that the enforcement route is never the bank's preferred route or recovery. In fact, in most cases, recovery rates are usually lowest by way of enforcement. Banks typically do not adopt the enforcement action unless it is the absolutely last resort. If you have a paying customer, banks are usually quite happy.
I invite everyone not to take my word for it. Talk to your independent insolvency counsel and make your own judgement and views on the same.
The crux of these interesting argumentative threads is really - is rivergate fairly priced now and hence mitigate any bank action down the road (ie significant fall below today's price).
Look at the potential of rivergate's vicinity and then do price comparisons. Do not take into account the idiots that bought Alexis at $1200 and Arte at $900-$1000.
There is almost ZERO developmental potential for rivergate in a 1km radius, much less a 500m radius - no MRT, no commercial/entertainment hub, no shopping mall, just lotsa lotsa more condos. and maybe zouk. look at the billions the govt is pumping into the marina bay, and south/southeastern area. and then the hundreds of millions into the one-north area. then look at rivergate. there are just waaay too many developments in that area that are poised to bring prices down. S@C, st thomas stretch, and the new devonshire development are waay closer to orchard, and if devonshire is priced at $1400 avg, RG is truly in trouble.
I used to rent and my rental decision was simple - location & prestige. I wanted to be able to tell my colleagues and friends: lim peh stay at XXXX. If RG and MBR both carry the same rental psf, i would go for MBR. RG is not in the exclusive enclaves of orchard, nor the high-end commercial enclaves. Agents say its in the epicenter of Raffles Place and Orchard. I say its in the middle of nowhere.
the launch price of RG avg out at $1000 in 2006. then some champion bidded it up to $1700, and it started a localised bubble. it's now about $1350-$1400. That's still 40% from launch price. and 2006 was 15% higher than 2005. so you're looking at 55% premium. at $1350, RG is overpriced.
At the Sail, in 2004 first launch was $900psf. 2nd launch in 2005 was $1100.
Even if i bought close to the 2nd launch price, i'm shitting in my pants for bank action down the road. but because i'm buying at just about a 15% premium, my downside is somewhat mitigated. Not to mention i have no PES area to speak of, which since Feb09 banks are consciously trying to price out of valuations.
At one-north, the lee dynasty is trying to bank hard on multimedia, cinematic, and biotech industries. it really doesn't matter if that works out. what matters is the amount of infrastructure funds the government is pumping in. valuations in ONR peaked to $1200. it's now $800. it was launched at $750. I'm looking at one-north to get a studio for investment.
so it boils down to 'location, location, location'. heck even one amber is a better project price -performance wise. got MRT, got 2 shopping malls & 1 derelict mall, great view, and arguably can cycle to gardens by the bay
Does RG neighbourhood/vicinity have the potential to raise its prices beyond current levels? Your answer to this answers RG's valuation question.
bargain hunter
31-03-09, 00:14
why start this thread to say you will buy rivergate when you see nothing good about it?
The crux of these interesting argumentative threads is really - is rivergate fairly priced now and hence mitigate any bank action down the road (ie significant fall below today's price).
Look at the potential of rivergate's vicinity and then do price comparisons. Do not take into account the idiots that bought Alexis at $1200 and Arte at $900-$1000.
There is almost ZERO developmental potential for rivergate in a 1km radius, much less a 500m radius - no MRT, no commercial/entertainment hub, no shopping mall, just lotsa lotsa more condos. and maybe zouk. look at the billions the govt is pumping into the marina bay, and south/southeastern area. and then the hundreds of millions into the one-north area. then look at rivergate. there are just waaay too many developments in that area that are poised to bring prices down. S@C, st thomas stretch, and the new devonshire development are waay closer to orchard, and if devonshire is priced at $1400 avg, RG is truly in trouble.
I used to rent and my rental decision was simple - location & prestige. I wanted to be able to tell my colleagues and friends: lim peh stay at XXXX. If RG and MBR both carry the same rental psf, i would go for MBR. RG is not in the exclusive enclaves of orchard, nor the high-end commercial enclaves. Agents say its in the epicenter of Raffles Place and Orchard. I say its in the middle of nowhere.
the launch price of RG avg out at $1000 in 2006. then some champion bidded it up to $1700, and it started a localised bubble. it's now about $1350-$1400. That's still 40% from launch price. and 2006 was 15% higher than 2005. so you're looking at 55% premium. at $1350, RG is overpriced.
At the Sail, in 2004 first launch was $900psf. 2nd launch in 2005 was $1100.
Even if i bought close to the 2nd launch price, i'm shitting in my pants for bank action down the road. but because i'm buying at just about a 15% premium, my downside is somewhat mitigated. Not to mention i have no PES area to speak of, which since Feb09 banks are consciously trying to price out of valuations.
At one-north, the lee dynasty is trying to bank hard on multimedia, cinematic, and biotech industries. it really doesn't matter if that works out. what matters is the amount of infrastructure funds the government is pumping in. valuations in ONR peaked to $1200. it's now $800. it was launched at $750. I'm looking at one-north to get a studio for investment.
so it boils down to 'location, location, location'. heck even one amber is a better project price -performance wise. got MRT, got 2 shopping malls & 1 derelict mall, great view, and arguably can cycle to gardens by the bay
Does RG neighbourhood/vicinity have the potential to raise its prices beyond current levels? Your answer to this answers RG's valuation question.
I disagree with gfoo that Rivergate is in the middle of nowhere! Rivergate is in the middle of KTV girl land! :D.
That Malaysian developer who bought Welkin Mansion at that ridiculous price will be holding it for a long time.
For investment I would not touch River Valley. But I would buy to stay, note this is a biased comment as I live here and love it.
There are so many other choices for good investment deals at similar or lower prices than River Valley. One North, Dhoby Ghaut, Novena MRT area, Newton MRT area, Holland MRT area, Adam/Botanic MRT area, I could go on and on.
Like gfoo, I would look at One North and Marina Bay for investment right now.
Unlike gfoo though, I would stay clear of One Amber and vicinity. That part of east coast has lost its original charm and has become a high-rise concrete jungle with congested 2 lane roads and overpopulation. No MRT. You will be competing with hundreds of other units for tenants.
why start this thread to say you will buy rivergate when you see nothing good about it?
read historical in ex RG thread. i will buy at launch mah. at that price, rivergate becomes good.
put it this way lah.
heartland condos dropped only 15% from peak but went up 50%. slow decline coz tons of hdb upgraders are propping up demand/prices. why? i dunno - maybe they are not used to having so much idle cash on hand from the sale of their HDB.
prime condos wet up 60% but down almost 50%. so even if you want to buy RG now, go and buy lor - you still lose less % wise compared to heartland condos. but you will still lose
so will i
and so will many others that buy today.
but i buy to stay, and after living these few weeks with in-laws, i would gladly have paid more to move in earlier - you guys have no idea the pain i have to endure
I disagree with gfoo that Rivergate is in the middle of nowhere! Rivergate is in the middle of KTV girl land! :D.
and across the longkang at Central Mall you have Singapore's one and only korean ktv. but v v v v expensive siah, and i'm not talking about how much a bottle of chivas costs
Unlike gfoo though, I would stay clear of One Amber and vicinity. That part of east coast has lost its original charm and has become a high-rise concrete jungle with congested 2 lane roads and overpopulation. No MRT. You will be competing with hundreds of other units for tenants.
How do u define concrete jungle? Isn't Orchard, District 1, certain part of River Valley likewise?
Talk abt overpopulation... The Sail > One Amber+ Esta.
Rivergate+ Watermark+ 8 Rodyk+ Robertson 100 ++++ etc.....
Travelling from Amber area to Suntec is a 10 mins bus ride n to Raffles Place around 15-18 mins bus ride. Driving from Amber to The Sail takes me 11 min. Having no MRT is irrelevant as public transport is available. I don't think tenant working in the west would be renting a place at Amber area.
MRT prob need a 10yr wait for Eastern Regional Line. Or maybe Circle line will be completing sooner nearest Dakota Station. But there is the convenience of a 10 min walk to Parkway Parade, East Coast Park, future Shopping Mall at Katong Mall, nice F&B along East Coast...
Of course the added bonus of 11 min drive away from the IR.
In fact It takes longer to drive from Novena area to Raffles Place than from Amber to Raffles Place, but Property px at the East is much more affordable than Novena area.
Concrete jungle is fine where it is supposed to be, ie- central/city area. It is not fine for the East Coast.I dunno if you can understand that.
Novena to Raffles Place is much nearer if you compare with same conditions: no traffic and take small roads (not expressways).
During rush hour, ECP, Nicoll H'way, Mountbatten, etc are just as bad as, if not worse than the roads surrounding Novena.
But Novena has the MRT and Amber doesn't. Expats are only here to work a couple of years. I don't think they give much thought to SARS or hospital feng shui. If that bothers you, there are still plenty of other prime and near prime areas with MRT to choose from, Newton, Balmoral, Holland, Adam, Dover, etc. all of which I'd sooner invest in than East Coast.
You are lying to yourself if you think Amber area is alright being a concrete jungle despite not being particularly close to anywhere of importance. Well, if the highlights of your life involve hanging out at Parkway and strolling to overpopulated, polluted East Coast Park to look at murky waters then by all means buy Amber.
In any case, you failed to note that my post addressed investment property. Why do you think I specifically noted MRT areas in prime and near prime districts?
When investing, I prefer to anticipate the worst case scenario in that my tenants do not drive, taxis are difficult to hail or book during rush hours and rainy days, and gridlocked traffic.
Maybe your investment strategies are different from mine but I would not invest in somewhere like Rivergate or Amber Road for the reasons outlined above.
Yes, in my own property investing experiences, expats appreciate MRT a lot more than driving their own vehicle in S'pore probably due to lousy S'porean drivers amidst atrocious traffic conditions and limited parking lots at offices and malls. So maybe that has influenced my opinions a bit. I can live in an area without MRT but I wouldn't wish that upon my expat tenants.
How do u define concrete jungle? Isn't Orchard, District 1, certain part of River Valley likewise?
Talk abt overpopulation... The Sail > One Amber+ Esta.
Rivergate+ Watermark+ 8 Rodyk+ Robertson 100 ++++ etc.....
Travelling from Amber area to Suntec is a 10 mins bus ride n to Raffles Place around 15-18 mins bus ride. Driving from Amber to The Sail takes me 11 min. Having no MRT is irrelevant as public transport is available. I don't think tenant working in the west would be renting a place at Amber area.
MRT prob need a 10yr wait for Eastern Regional Line. Or maybe Circle line will be completing sooner nearest Dakota Station. But there is the convenience of a 10 min walk to Parkway Parade, East Coast Park, future Shopping Mall at Katong Mall, nice F&B along East Coast...
Of course the added bonus of 11 min drive away from the IR.
In fact It takes longer to drive from Novena area to Raffles Place than from Amber to Raffles Place, but Property px at the East is much more affordable than Novena area.
I used to drive around lots.
ECP and CTE are jammed up terribly 6 - 8 hours a day.
Your 11 mins drive from Amber to IR is only achievable from 10 or 11 pm onwards. Otherwise, a jammed up ECP will mean that the alternative is the equally congested Mountbatten road and Nicoll Highway. After which you sit through nightmarish gridlock from Suntec-Esplanade area all the way through Fullerton to turn into ORQ.
In contrast, from Novena Sq you have the option of one straight no-frills no hassle underground train down to Raffles Place, 10-15 mins tops; or if you drive, one long straight road down Newton Rd, Scotts Rd, Paterson Rd, Kim Seng Rd, turn left at Havelock, straight down to ORQ and IR. Speeds are higher here even during rush hour due to wider roads and faster, higher torque cars that more folks here drive. I have consistently accomplished 15 minute drives from Novena Sq to ORQ in rush hour traffic using the above roads.
From Parkway to ORQ in rush hour takes me half an hour.
I used to frequent Novena Sq and PP because of my job. And I can imagine traffic nowadays being worse what with the increase in population of all the cheap underpowered cars on the road.
So I can't imagine an expat wanting to sit through all that, either in a taxi or his own vehicle!
To us S'poreans, taking MRT is low class, because we view driving car as a status symbol. Have you considered how expats view driving in Singapore? Based on my understanding, I am willing to bet that a large majority prefer the speedy fuss free, if squeezier MRT.
i12buyhouse
31-03-09, 10:46
BH:
I challenge u that there is no such “topup” clauses in the mortgage contract . Pls read between the line ”The bank USUALLY don,t….”.
If what u said is true ,get the bank to remove such clauses from the contract.
Cartman, Mezz72SG,
Do any of you own private properties at all?
Get the low-down on home loan top-ups
Banks don’t usually ask for fresh valuations despite price slide
WITH the slide in property prices and a looming long economic downturn, some borrowers may be forgiven if they harbour thoughts of getting calls from their banks to top up their home loans.
But banks told BT that as long as borrowers are current in their monthly loan instalments, they will not ask for fresh valuations which could then lead to a top-up.
A DBS Bank spokeswoman says a key consideration when granting loans is the repayment ability of the customer.
‘As such, when the customers are promptly servicing their monthly repayments, the bank will not usually require the customer to top-up the housing loan.’
Even those who took up loans on the deferred payment scheme (DPS) need not worry about the fall in the value of their homes, she says.
‘Customers who took up loans on the deferred payment scheme would have had the approval granted based on the valuations at the point of the submission of their loan applications. And likewise, the approval will take into account the repayment ability of the customer.
‘By the same token, when the loan is disbursed, as long as the customer can meet the monthly repayment amounts, the bank will not usually take any other course of action against the customer, even if valuations of these properties are now lower than that at the time of purchase.’
In reply of BT queries, a Monetary Authority of Singapore spokeswoman says non-performing housing loans are currently low.
‘While we expect these to rise, the increase will not be significant,’ she says.
‘Banks in Singapore do not generally repossess a property once a loan is in default. Repossession is usually a final step after exhausting other avenues with the borrower, such as restructuring the loan,’ she adds.
The MAS, however, does not intervene in such commercial decisions by the banks, she adds.
A United Overseas Bank spokeswoman says it is currently not the bank’s practice to require a fresh valuation for DPS properties.
DPS borrowers typically begin paying their instalments some two years after they bought their homes.
Some observers are expecting a rash of defaults on the part of DPS buyers when the properties are completed and loan drawdowns begin.
Vibha Coburn, Citibank’s head of secured finance solutions, says it is not the bank’s usual practice to ask for top-ups in the case of existing borrowers who are servicing their loans on an ongoing basis.
‘While we may conduct valuations on properties held within our loans portfolio, these would form part of our internal portfolio management and due diligence processes,’ she says.
The UOB spokeswoman says the bank periodically reviews its mortgage portfolio, including the update of property values.
Source : Business Times - 8 Dec 2008
Well bro, i respect your opinion though i don't necessary agree on all of them. So where do u think is a good place to place one's chip now for an investment pty? The Sail? One North? Any other places? N if u don't mind sharing the rationale for it? Tks :)
I used to drive around lots.
ECP and CTE are jammed up terribly 6 - 8 hours a day.
Your 11 mins drive from Amber to IR is only achievable from 10 or 11 pm onwards. Otherwise, a jammed up ECP will mean that the alternative is the equally congested Mountbatten road and Nicoll Highway. After which you sit through nightmarish gridlock from Suntec-Esplanade area all the way through Fullerton to turn into ORQ.
In contrast, from Novena Sq you have the option of one straight no-frills no hassle underground train down to Raffles Place, 10-15 mins tops; or if you drive, one long straight road down Newton Rd, Scotts Rd, Paterson Rd, Kim Seng Rd, turn left at Havelock, straight down to ORQ and IR. Speeds are higher here even during rush hour due to wider roads and faster, higher torque cars that more folks here drive. I have consistently accomplished 15 minute drives from Novena Sq to ORQ in rush hour traffic using the above roads.
From Parkway to ORQ in rush hour takes me half an hour.
I used to frequent Novena Sq and PP because of my job. And I can imagine traffic nowadays being worse what with the increase in population of all the cheap underpowered cars on the road.
So I can't imagine an expat wanting to sit through all that, either in a taxi or his own vehicle!
To us S'poreans, taking MRT is low class, because we view driving car as a status symbol. Have you considered how expats view driving in Singapore? Based on my understanding, I am willing to bet that a large majority prefer the speedy fuss free, if squeezier MRT.
Well bro, i respect your opinion though i don't necessary agree on all of them. So where do u think is a good place to place one's chip now for an investment pty? The Sail? One North? Any other places? N if u don't mind sharing the rationale for it? Tks :)
i12buyhouse
31-03-09, 11:17
Buying Price 1500sf @ $1500psf $2,250,000.00
Loan Amount @ 80% $1,800,000.00
Current Price @ $1200psf $1,800,000.00
Assume Price move to $1000psf in 3 months time $1,500,000.00
Look at the example above , assuming that market continue to move south. The unit will be in negative asset. The bank exposure is > $300K and risk to drop futher is more. Bank would need more provision of bad debt if more and more loan given in this situation. It will hit thier P&L finally.
Finally, these will become toxic asset in bank book... In order to protect bank interest, they might need to force customer top up before the valuation hit $1350psf.
It is not very common currently because most of this units are on DPS scheme. When come to TOP, then the owner getting loan from bank.
This is from my personal experience and observation. Banks may ask you to top up but I believe this is done on a best efforts basis and to the maximum extent the owner can do so (i.e. by exercising any set off rights the bank may have on their accounts and likewise).
Well bro, i respect your opinion though i don't necessary agree on all of them. So where do u think is a good place to place one's chip now for an investment pty? The Sail? One North? Any other places? N if u don't mind sharing the rationale for it? Tks :)
the sail not a gd investment imo...
many r shunning sentosa now, but imo it may be a gem.. it was hot for a reason, it will be hot again
sorrie qfoo :o
the sail not a gd investment imo...
many r shunning sentosa now, but imo it may be a gem.. it was hot for a reason, it will be hot again
sorrie qfoo :o
I also have some reservations on the Sail or Marina Bay area. Do u think u can share your reasons/ insights on the Sail n Sentosa. Tks :)
I also have some reservations on the Sail or Marina Bay area. Do u think u can share your reasons/ insights on the Sail n Sentosa. Tks :)
Yes, do share your reservations. For me, and i stress that as this is for own stay, it fit my budget, need and profile.
I was considering the Berth at $1400psf, but honestly, that's out of my affordability range. $1m for a property was my budget +- 5%, so that i can still retain a significant cash buffer for extingencies.
Also, as i am extremely pantang (as you all prob are aware heeeee), i won't feel comfortable in a place that gives me the creeps.
anything free is good!
I think it all boils down to vested interest. I am more inclined to think that Rg has better investment value compared to Sail. in fact, I think sail is overpriced and we are looking at a 15-20% downward adjustment by nov08. I won't want to say I will chop if it doesn't happen, cos you know 'experts' are entitled to revise their estimates from time to time ;p
read historical in ex RG thread. i will buy at launch mah. at that price, rivergate becomes good.
Hi all
If you only have housing loan, no overdraft nor term loans, as long as you service your monthly installment, you are safe and will NOT be asked to top up when valuations falls.
When are you in danger of top up when valuation falls?
1. When you have OD. Either the bank may cut/cancel the OD, or you TOP up.
2. Valuation drops adversely between the loan acceptance and disbursement. i.e. For initial $1m condo with $800k loan, prior to disbursement, $1m->$800k, so need to top up $160k. Usually, this will not affect new launches due to bank-developer tie-up.
3. Refinancing. It's always based on latest valuations.
I work in a bank, I know why some people were asked to top up.
Stop causing and perpetuating unnecessary fear based on unsubstantiated claims and hearsay.
Many of my friends and relatives ask me this top-up question. To date, none has been asked to top up. However, 1 friend has his OD cut 50% by bank so that overall LTV remains <= 80%.
regards
i suggest you talk to some bankers before you give erroneous advice to the members here, it could result in some of them overstretching themselves and getting into financial difficulties. banks DO ask for topup EVEN IF you had been servicing your loans promptly.
bargain hunter
31-03-09, 14:38
i m juz quoting the article below, i never said there is no such "topup" clauses. I am just saying that it does not happen as frequently as u make sound like its a mass margin call everytime the price adjusts downwards. As DW had illustrated, I think you are just being too extreme, saying everytime the house price falls, a whole lot of units are asked to top-up, this is not the case.
BH:
I challenge u that there is no such “topup” clauses in the mortgage contract . Pls read between the line ”The bank USUALLY don,t….”.
If what u said is true ,get the bank to remove such clauses from the contract.
Hi
Again, this is not true and not bank practice.
See my earlier post on housing loan with OD and TL.
As long as you could pay the installment, bank earns money, no reason to ask for top-up.
Provision and bad-debt is a function of defaults, not valuation.
Forced top-up resulting in more defaults increases provision and bad-debt
People on DPS are in real danger of requiring more cash/CPF as they did not secure loans on the initial purchase price or valuations.
Recent buyer on IAS are not affected due to bank-developer tie-up.
People looking to buy completed properties need to extremely careful about the difference in purchase price and bank valuation as the lower amount determines the loan amount.
regards
Buying Price 1500sf @ $1500psf $2,250,000.00
Loan Amount @ 80% $1,800,000.00
Current Price @ $1200psf $1,800,000.00
Assume Price move to $1000psf in 3 months time $1,500,000.00
Look at the example above , assuming that market continue to move south. The unit will be in negative asset. The bank exposure is > $300K and risk to drop futher is more. Bank would need more provision of bad debt if more and more loan given in this situation. It will hit thier P&L finally.
Finally, these will become toxic asset in bank book... In order to protect bank interest, they might need to force customer top up before the valuation hit $1350psf.
It is not very common currently because most of this units are on DPS scheme. When come to TOP, then the owner getting loan from bank.
Agent told me today that Ferrell sold their remaining 20 units of Rivergate for $1200 psf.
Well bro, i respect your opinion though i don't necessary agree on all of them. So where do u think is a good place to place one's chip now for an investment pty? The Sail? One North? Any other places? N if u don't mind sharing the rationale for it? Tks :)
Well you don't need to agree with me, but hopefully my little opinion will be heard, especially to the people trying to decide where to buy.
The Sail is good if you can buy it cheap like gfoo. If One North is asking $600 psf, well why not? It is a terrific deal if can get at that price. What about The Rochester? Also very very near MRT. The above are 99 yrs.
If you prefer freehold, I feel that Novena Suites is a good investment property because D11, right next to MRT, next to Harry's Bar and Cold Storage. Best of all, its price. Hard to find this kind of development in D9,10,11 without paying an arm and a leg.
D10 Urban Edge @ Holland as well as The Ford are 2 freehold new builds very near Holland MRT on Circle Line. Although Holland MRT is not as direct to Orchard Road and Raffles Place as the North South Line (Novena, Newton) is, it is still heck of a lot more convenient for expat tenants to get around without getting involved in Singapore's horrendous traffic.
The Shelford - quite new, D11, near Botanic Gardens MRT, which will also be an interchange. This is one of the "ang moh" type of condo, low rise, big grounds, greenery and water everywhere.
There are more, so do your own research.
Of the above 3 I prefer Novena Suites because it is really right next door to MRT, Cold Storage and Harry's Bar! An important consideration for expats.
bargain hunter
31-03-09, 17:01
thanks for your help, i wanted to put the same message across but because i don't work in a bank, i became the one accused of spreading false information. People like i12buyhouse seems to be the ones trying to perpetuate unnecessary fear sounding like people get margin calls like in the stock market everytime the valuation drops. Well, afterall he has an agenda because he wants to buy house but even then, that's no way to mislead fellow forumers.
Hi all
If you only have housing loan, no overdraft nor term loans, as long as you service your monthly installment, you are safe and will NOT be asked to top up when valuations falls.
When are you in danger of top up when valuation falls?
1. When you have OD. Either the bank may cut/cancel the OD, or you TOP up.
2. Valuation drops adversely between the loan acceptance and disbursement. i.e. For initial $1m condo with $800k loan, prior to disbursement, $1m->$800k, so need to top up $160k. Usually, this will not affect new launches due to bank-developer tie-up.
3. Refinancing. It's always based on latest valuations.
I work in a bank, I know why some people were asked to top up.
Stop causing and perpetuating unnecessary fear based on unsubstantiated claims and hearsay.
Many of my friends and relatives ask me this top-up question. To date, none has been asked to top up. However, 1 friend has his OD cut 50% by bank so that overall LTV remains <= 80%.
regards
Of the above 3 I prefer Novena Suites because it is really right next door to MRT, Cold Storage and Harry's Bar! An important consideration for expats.
lol can tell you love to drink.
Sail low kar (downstairs) got a Harry's Bar, jap sandwich bar, and some health smoothie place. Jason's is setting up a supermart branch at the Sail basement amongst others.
I've been mulling over this sentosa vs marina bay thing over some smokes earlier. i think both offer very different types of living. Sentosa is an exclusive, residential enclave where you can berth your yacht alongside your home. Gated, peaceful, windy, and posh, with the IR as a playground via monorail. The only issue there is lack of amenities across the board, and transportation out to mainland.
The Sail, MBR etc offers something a little more towards Central Park/Manhattan living. Tons of amenities in the basement (MBR, Central Linear Park, Landmark MRT, ORQ, and Raffles Place are all linked), entertainment & shopping at the IR, with a balance of the Gardens by the Bay and the Collyer Quay boardwalk for recreation and relaxation. All are within 5mins walking distance. Unfortunately, all these will be open to the public as well, unlike Sentosa.
I prefer more vibrant living however vs something too sleepy - thus Mbay.
I just pray my decision has been right. If i'm wrong, at least my exposure is minimized.
thanks for your help, i wanted to put the same message across but because i don't work in a bank, i became the one accused of spreading false information. People like i12buyhouse seems to be the ones trying to perpetuate unnecessary fear sounding like people get margin calls like in the stock market everytime the valuation drops. Well, afterall he has an agenda because he wants to buy house but even then, that's no way to mislead fellow forumers.
I've got tons of ex classmates in senior positions in banks and risk management side of the big 3 accounting firms. This topup issue has been a favourite topic with us between tais.
Local banks have a social compact with Singapore, and the fact that the govt holds substantial interests in them help greatly. Their bread and butter is in the local economy, as are their major interests. Thus shitting where they eat will not help at all - look at DBS' structured fiasco.
Foreign qualifying banks in Singapore contribute to global bottom lines. Yes they have separate P&Ls and different regulatory environments. But they are still subsidiaries of parent, who's bread & butter base ain't Singapore. When it comes to the crunch, the general feeling amongst my friends is that as there is no social compact, it will revert back to what makes the most business sense, as long as it is within the regulatory framework. Law-by-law, they can ask for topups if they want. This is exactly what Citi did to one of the bros here.
Stanchart is the exception due to the Khoo-LKY connection, and the fact that it is practically a singapore-inc owned bank.
Oops, I forgot 1 more scenario for probable top-up, the riskiest one for both customer and bank. Not sure if we are talking about same bro.
For those opt for interest only housing loan, rather than the usual principal reducing mortgage loan, you are in grave danger for top-up even if there's no reduction in valuation.
Bank generally see such loan as very very risky, treated riskier than those who take OD/TL. Actually, it's a misnomer, such loans are not really housing loans. Such loan don't work towards home ownership as there's zero reduction in customer's loan liability with customer cashing out all rental income.
regards
I've got tons of ex classmates in senior positions in banks and risk management side of the big 3 accounting firms. This topup issue has been a favourite topic with us between tais.
Local banks have a social compact with Singapore, and the fact that the govt holds substantial interests in them help greatly. Their bread and butter is in the local economy, as are their major interests. Thus shitting where they eat will not help at all - look at DBS' structured fiasco.
Foreign qualifying banks in Singapore contribute to global bottom lines. Yes they have separate P&Ls and different regulatory environments. But they are still subsidiaries of parent, who's bread & butter base ain't Singapore. When it comes to the crunch, the general feeling amongst my friends is that as there is no social compact, it will revert back to what makes the most business sense, as long as it is within the regulatory framework. Law-by-law, they can ask for topups if they want. This is exactly what Citi did to one of the bros here.
Stanchart is the exception due to the Khoo-LKY connection, and the fact that it is practically a singapore-inc owned bank.
Everyone's got their opinion, no right or wrong.
Things may be as bad as the last property bust or worse. But, back then, majority of those "below equity" properties still provided positive cashflow and were profitable to the banks. As long as customer continues to service instalments, bank still profits. Bank not stupid for unnecessary top-ups and foreclosure...
regards
thanks for your help, i wanted to put the same message across but because i don't work in a bank, i became the one accused of spreading false information. People like i12buyhouse seems to be the ones trying to perpetuate unnecessary fear sounding like people get margin calls like in the stock market everytime the valuation drops. Well, afterall he has an agenda because he wants to buy house but even then, that's no way to mislead fellow forumers.
i12buyhouse
31-03-09, 19:01
First , you said "not required to top up if valuation falls, as long as pay up monthly installment on time". Now u revise to " It (topup) does not happend as frequent"
Originally Posted by bargain hunter
Property loans do not work like you buy stocks on margin and keep having margin calls.You are not required to top up your loan everytime the valuation falls even if you are in negative equity. The important thing is to be able to keep servicing the monthly loan installment. You are only required to top up your loan when you want to refinance your property and find yourself unable to meet the valuation.
i m juz quoting the article below, i never said there is no such "topup" clauses. I am just saying that it does not happen as frequently as u make sound like its a mass margin call everytime the price adjusts downwards. As DW had illustrated, I think you are just being too extreme, saying everytime the house price falls, a whole lot of units are asked to top-up, this is not the case.
i12buyhouse
31-03-09, 19:43
I have no agenda to hide as my nick tell everyone that I am going to buy house. Indeed I am looking for a house. Pls contact me if u have good unit to sell.
I am sharing my concern for all potential buyer that the danger of bank force topup if valuation fall is indeed a fact no one can deny. Potential buyer, pls be mindful..
Irresponsible act by BH giving highly misleading info and childish act by launching personal attack on me is low class.
thanks for your help, i wanted to put the same message across but because i don't work in a bank, i became the one accused of spreading false information. People like i12buyhouse seems to be the ones trying to perpetuate unnecessary fear sounding like people get margin calls like in the stock market everytime the valuation drops. Well, afterall he has an agenda because he wants to buy house but even then, that's no way to mislead fellow forumers.
bargain hunter
31-03-09, 19:44
repanse71 has helped me worded the message that i wanted to get through more correctly and since i am not a banker and he is, i think he has done a much better job. You are just trying to pick errors from the way i present my sentence and missing the main point that you are trying to perpetuate fear, which i think is misleading others more than my errorneous sentence.
First , you said "not required to top up if valuation falls, as long as pay up monthly installment on time". Now u revise to " It (topup) does not happend as frequent"
Originally Posted by bargain hunter
Property loans do not work like you buy stocks on margin and keep having margin calls.You are not required to top up your loan everytime the valuation falls even if you are in negative equity. The important thing is to be able to keep servicing the monthly loan installment. You are only required to top up your loan when you want to refinance your property and find yourself unable to meet the valuation.
bargain hunter
31-03-09, 20:25
Yup, that should be the factual message which should be put across. Thanks. I need not write anything else with regards to this topic of top-ups anymore.
Everyone's got their opinion, no right or wrong.
Things may be as bad as the last property bust or worse. But, back then, majority of those "below equity" properties still provided positive cashflow and were profitable to the banks. As long as customer continues to service instalments, bank still profits. Bank not stupid for unnecessary top-ups and foreclosure...
regards
Hi
Again, this is not true and not bank practice.
See my earlier post on housing loan with OD and TL.
As long as you could pay the installment, bank earns money, no reason to ask for top-up.
Provision and bad-debt is a function of defaults, not valuation.
Forced top-up resulting in more defaults increases provision and bad-debt
People on DPS are in real danger of requiring more cash/CPF as they did not secure loans on the initial purchase price or valuations.
Recent buyer on IAS are not affected due to bank-developer tie-up.
People looking to buy completed properties need to extremely careful about the difference in purchase price and bank valuation as the lower amount determines the loan amount.
regards
This is in line with my earlier post and as be simply illustrated with what you would do if you are indeed part of the credit committee defending your decision.
I tend to agree with repanse71.
The part on bank bad debt provision and write-down, I just want to caution that it might be advisable for such relevant forummers to know what they are talking about before making such postulations and comments. Toxic assets which can be MTMed are assets traded freely in the market where valuations can be done against market valuations - there has to be a readily available market for indexation. Valuation of mortgage loans can be done either by valuation of the underlying mortgage asset (this approach is done only when there is clear signs of a default having occured and/or is contiuning by the mortgagor) or based on book value. In most cases, its done based on book value. The loan book provisioning you see being reported in some of the local banks financial reportings are either (i) default of the loan asset is eminent, (ii) default has already occured, and/or (iii) default is continuing. Do take some time to read their accounting policies, usually point 1 of their accounting notes.
Some likes to talk about broad qualitative statements without much substantiation or well thought through statements. I encourgage such relevant persons to speak with intellect, and supported with well grounded industry expertise and experience before putting forward broad ideas or ideas appear to be sound, which more often than not, in my own view sometimes is quite saddening.
I think everyone wants to encourage positive contributions and perhaps unrestricted flow of ideas from all forummers- but I would like to say, this is quite different from sprouting what you think is correct (especially when there are specific provisions and guidelines either by MAS or in Basel II on how these are classified) without checking or if they are on grounded basis.
Well you don't need to agree with me, but hopefully my little opinion will be heard, especially to the people trying to decide where to buy.
The Sail is good if you can buy it cheap like gfoo. If One North is asking $600 psf, well why not? It is a terrific deal if can get at that price. What about The Rochester? Also very very near MRT. The above are 99 yrs.
If you prefer freehold, I feel that Novena Suites is a good investment property because D11, right next to MRT, next to Harry's Bar and Cold Storage. Best of all, its price. Hard to find this kind of development in D9,10,11 without paying an arm and a leg.
D10 Urban Edge @ Holland as well as The Ford are 2 freehold new builds very near Holland MRT on Circle Line. Although Holland MRT is not as direct to Orchard Road and Raffles Place as the North South Line (Novena, Newton) is, it is still heck of a lot more convenient for expat tenants to get around without getting involved in Singapore's horrendous traffic.
The Shelford - quite new, D11, near Botanic Gardens MRT, which will also be an interchange. This is one of the "ang moh" type of condo, low rise, big grounds, greenery and water everywhere.
There are more, so do your own research.
Of the above 3 I prefer Novena Suites because it is really right next door to MRT, Cold Storage and Harry's Bar! An important consideration for expats.
Of course One North is good at $600psf, n if Sail is at $800psf it would be even better. Sorry bro gfoo, i am not talking down the mkt. What i am saying is it boils down to whether a pty at a certain value is worth buying.
I think bro ahlahdin strategy is he loves pty near MRT station. Well i don't dispute that it is an advantage. But i certainly don't fancy smallish developments like Novena Suites, Urban Edge @ Holland, The Ford. They don't have the full facilities of a condo n such developmets are dime a dozen. Which explains why they are cheaper than their peers. Why would a tenant compromise on the lack of facilities when he is prepare to pay the same $$?
And i do happen to know quite a number of bankers n professionals that travel to work by pre-booked cab everyday, door to door comfort. Not sure whether bro ahlahdin understand, but when one can afford, many wouldn't want to take the train. The problem of MRT is if one is living too near the city, it might not necessary be an adv. Ask those that try to catch the morning train peak hr from Kallang to Raffles Place, or from Farrer Park, etc. U would be lucky if u can catch the the 1st 3 trains that comes by. Travelling by train is good if starting point is from Tampines, AMK, etc.
Living at Amber area is a lifestyle, not too far from Raffles or Suntec, n walking distance to Cold Storage, plus Giant n NTUC if that is what bro ahlahdin fancy. Walking to the beach to Big Spash is also 10 min away from Esta, plus the Katong eateries n Pubs. Locals may not appreciate East Coast Park n the proximity to the beach, but when u know your expat friend comes from a place that need 2hrs drive to the beach, East Coast is the place that they want to stay as a lifestyle.
The bonus abt D15 is there are a good number of home stayers (reduced supply for rental), which is a hedge against falling pxs. Unlike some of the downtown projects, majority are investment ie. for rental. Competition (huge supply) drives rental down, n investors take profit n cut loss at a target px, at least that is what i do :) But ask home owners, the extreme being landed pty, some lived there for decades!!
My point is, the Katong n Marine Parade area will always attract many, just like River Valley would have its fans.
And i do happen to know quite a number of bankers n professionals that travel to work by pre-booked cab everyday, door to door comfort. Not sure whether bro ahlahdin understand, but when one can afford, many wouldn't want to take the train.
Not sure if you understood my point about Singapore's terrible traffic jams.
Unless you're trying to tell me your banker and professional friends travel by pre-booked cabs that can fly above traffic jams.
Sidetracking a little, if said banker and professional were that hot shit, they'd be travelling by 911 Turbo and LP640. In which case traffic ahead of them would part automatically upon hearing engine note and exhaust roar. Yup just like Moses and the Red Sea. Or was it the Dead Sea.
Not sure if you understood my point about Singapore's terrible traffic jams.
Unless you're trying to tell me your banker and professional friends travel by pre-booked cabs that can fly above traffic jams.
Sidetracking a little, if said banker and professional were that hot shit, they'd be travelling by 911 Turbo and LP640. In which case traffic ahead of them would part automatically upon hearing engine note and exhaust roar. Yup just like Moses and the Red Sea. Or was it the Dead Sea.
I am not saying there is no jam on the road. I am saying different people prefer different traveling style. Not all love sardined packed train in the morning peak hr, or some prefer the privacy n own space n willing to compromise on the traffic condition.
Have u worked in Raffles Place area b4? Do u know how difficult to get a season parking lot at downtown? Else bro gfoo wouldn't choose to get Sail n walk to office.
Traveling by cab to work is affordable to most pple. Even mid level can afford, don't need super hot shot. They have chauffeur.
Relax bro :)
Have u worked in Raffles Place area b4? Do u know how difficult to get a season parking lot at downtown? Else bro gfoo wouldn't choose to get Sail n walk to office.
No I didn't know that it was so difficult to get a season parking lot downtown. All my friends who work there have season parking lots offered to them by their firms in their office buildings, including One Raffles Quay.
When you drive an F430 or a Vantage I don't suppose you have to fight very hard for a season parking lot.
But we're not talking about my friends. We are talking about mid to junior level expats on local packages in the banking and/or legal industries. They earn what, only S$15,000 a month? Which is pathetic in GBP and Euro.
Have u worked in Raffles Place area b4? Do u know how difficult to get a season parking lot at downtown? Else bro gfoo wouldn't choose to get Sail n walk to office.
Relax bro :)
Season parking is next to impossible to get in Raffles place, and even golden shoe IF you manage to get it costs $250 per month at least. Right now i park w/o season at my office at $350 per month.
I'm parking at the Sail and walking not only coz it saves me parking and fuel money, but coz if i dun start losing some weight, my wife has threatened to go downstairs to harry's and pick up some angmorgao.
bo pian
It is a choice between traffic jam sitting in cab and human jam in MRT, since driving their own cars to office is out of the question for mere mortals.
Season parking lot in Raffles Place: if you have to open your mouth to ask for one, you're not quite there yet. :) Those who need to fight for one, well.....:)
Season parking lot in Raffles Place: if you have to open your mouth to ask for one, you're not quite there yet. :) Those who need to fight for one, well.....:)
pwah..... atas.... :not-worthy:
proud owner
01-04-09, 14:02
is there any qualified Valuer in this forum ??
yesterday i asked banks for valuation for a TOP-ed project ...which in feb09 was traded at 725 psf ...
to my surprise ..they came back with 485 psf ???????? that was the launch price ..?
meanwhile a neighbouring project still trading at 680-700 psf ...
whats going on ?
what do they base their valuation on ?
Hi, about this bank top-up issue, I've just checked with my banker who mentioned to me that although the bank has the right to request for top-up in case the valuation of yr property head south, they will not take this extreme course of action so long you do not default your monthly payment. Hmmmm, there is still a danger of force payment if you are late for repayment. :beats-me-man:
Cartman, Mezz72SG,
Do any of you own private properties at all?
own? cannot afford lah :rolleyes: i only have 1.5 mil cash now to TRY to own one.
read your own posts and face up to the truth. you posted banks will NEVER ask for topups and we were correcting you on that. we did not post that bank will ALWAYS ask for topups. surely you cannot deny that banks DO ask for topups.
is there any qualified Valuer in this forum ??
yesterday i asked banks for valuation for a TOP-ed project ...which in feb09 was traded at 725 psf ...
to my surprise ..they came back with 485 psf ???????? that was the launch price ..?
meanwhile a neighbouring project still trading at 680-700 psf ...
whats going on ?
what do they base their valuation on ?
care to share which project was that? maybe banks are just being prudent now.
maybe their thought is why would they loan someone $2 million based on a property collateral which is worth only $1.4 million down the road even though that person is paying his monthly installment promptly :D
Hi, about this bank top-up issue, I've just checked with my banker who mentioned to me that although the bank has the right to request for top-up in case the valuation of yr property head south, they will not take this extreme course of action so long you do not default your monthly payment. Hmmmm, there is still a danger of force payment if you are late for repayment. :beats-me-man:
some banks are like fair weather friends...sunny days offer you free umbrella, rainy days, they want to take it back :D
care to share which project was that? maybe banks are just being prudent now.
maybe their thought is why would they loan someone $2 million based on a property collateral which is worth only $1.4 million down the road even though that person is paying his monthly installment promptly :D
Maybe that person has more than the $1.4mil in property collateral to back him up?
I know my bankers are offering me no tenure , pay the principal when you want, no penalty... and pay only interest (cost of fund + 0.5-1% depending on market condition) for as long as you want.
ALWAYS do vs DO ask?
Possible vs Probable?
what is happening against what can happen?
We share what we know in the everyone's best interests.
Regards
own? cannot afford lah :rolleyes: i only have 1.5 mil cash now to TRY to own one.
read your own posts and face up to the truth. you posted banks will NEVER ask for topups and we were correcting you on that. we did not post that bank will ALWAYS ask for topups. surely you cannot deny that banks DO ask for topups.
proud owner
01-04-09, 14:43
care to share which project was that? maybe banks are just being prudent now.
maybe their thought is why would they loan someone $2 million based on a property collateral which is worth only $1.4 million down the road even though that person is paying his monthly installment promptly :D
bank said they got their valuation from DTZ ..
so thats biased ..
if DTZ wants to actively sell RG ..they can give a valn of 1200 psf then RG can never fall below that ..regardless mkt sentiment ..
if DTZ doesnt want to sell Cosmopolitan ..they can give a valn of 900 psf ..
strange right ???
Very unfair and naive statement.
No one owes anyone a living. No one is forced to take the umbrella. Bank only take umbrella back from those who anyhow take umbrella. Bank's not your parent to question why you anyhow take umbrella in the first place.
Regards
some banks are like fair weather friends...sunny days offer you free umbrella, rainy days, they want to take it back :D
@Proud_Owner
To be fair to the bank and DTZ, could you give more details, not half information? You only answer half the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which project/development? What neighbouring project you talking about?
Regards
bank said they got their valuation from DTZ ..
so thats biased ..
if DTZ wants to actively sell RG ..they can give a valn of 1200 psf then RG can never fall below that ..regardless mkt sentiment ..
if DTZ doesnt want to sell Cosmopolitan ..they can give a valn of 900 psf ..
strange right ???
Very unfair and naive statement.
No one owes anyone a living. No one is forced to take the umbrella. Bank only take umbrella back from those who anyhow take umbrella. Bank's not your parent to question why you anyhow take umbrella in the first place.
Regards
wah, so sensitive :doh: are you a banker? its unfortunate that the minibonds saga have made them a villified lot
@Proud_Owner
To be fair to the bank and DTZ, could you give more details, not half information? You only answer half the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which project/development? What neighbouring project you talking about?
Regards
May I ask which bank do you work in? I want to borrow from your bank because you said your bank do not normally ask owner to top up.
Hope you will answer this question from a fellow forum-er.
Thx!
proud owner
01-04-09, 15:21
@Proud_Owner
To be fair to the bank and DTZ, could you give more details, not half information? You only answer half the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which project/development? What neighbouring project you talking about?
Regards
the one i ask is FH stellar while the nighbuor is 99 yr varsity park
are you from DTZ ??
Maybe that person has more than the $1.4mil in property collateral to back him up?
I know my bankers are offering me no tenure , pay the principal when you want, no penalty... and pay only interest (cost of fund + 0.5-1% depending on market condition) for as long as you want.
you atas mah :) but such loans are great in a hot property market.
you have any advice for someone looking to buy property now? say i have 1.5 million cash, should i just buy one unit and pay cash or should i take a loan? i do not forsee a need to use the cash for any other purpose and its rotting in the banks anyway with their miserable interest rates.
Hi all
If you only have housing loan, no overdraft nor term loans, as long as you service your monthly installment, you are safe and will NOT be asked to top up when valuations falls.
When are you in danger of top up when valuation falls?
1. When you have OD. Either the bank may cut/cancel the OD, or you TOP up.
2. Valuation drops adversely between the loan acceptance and disbursement. i.e. For initial $1m condo with $800k loan, prior to disbursement, $1m->$800k, so need to top up $160k. Usually, this will not affect new launches due to bank-developer tie-up.
3. Refinancing. It's always based on latest valuations.
I work in a bank, I know why some people were asked to top up.
Stop causing and perpetuating unnecessary fear based on unsubstantiated claims and hearsay.
Many of my friends and relatives ask me this top-up question. To date, none has been asked to top up. However, 1 friend has his OD cut 50% by bank so that overall LTV remains <= 80%.
regards
Care to share which bank do you work in? I want to do business with your bank. Thx.
Very pek cheh ah.
The very very select few in investment banking who earns $millions are now happily retired and sipping their penis colada in bali, maui... leaving other bankers who earn peanuts suffering the aftermath...
Regards
wah, so sensitive :doh: are you a banker? its unfortunate that the minibonds saga have made them a villified lot
Just go with a local bank. We have 25% chance of meeting.
Care to share which bank do you work in? I want to do business with your bank. Thx.
proud owner
01-04-09, 15:41
Just go with a local bank. We have 25% chance of meeting.
i replied to you questions
stellar and varsity park ...
so whats your verdict about the valuation ?
Very pek cheh ah.
The very very select few in investment banking who earns $millions are now happily retired and sipping their penis colada in bali, maui... leaving other bankers who earn peanuts suffering the aftermath...
Regards
haha but for folks in their league, those millions are not enough and they will soon be back for more :)
back to property, its seems like the local banks are more "bullish" as compared to the foreign banks. maybe its due to the vested interests of the local banks not wanting the property market to collapse.
looking forward, what is the view of your bank in terms of loans and valuations for newly TOP properties? are they generally offering loans based on significantly lower than buyers' asking prices?
Be careful what the RM verbally says and what's written in the LO / mortgage doc.
As said earlier, these interest-servicing loans are risky affairs.
But I have seen many customers who choose their loan to qualify as asset based financing i.e. x% LTV. I believe it's between around 50-60% for all banks. They typically buy a few properties, and place an FD equivalent of abt 12months installment with the same bank.
If I hit toto and win $1.5m, I would by 2 condo at 60% LTV, place a $100k FD, redeem my HDB loan, buy $200k of bluechip shares, ask for no-pay leave to travel world for 6 months...
Regards
you atas mah :) but such loans are great in a hot property market.
you have any advice for someone looking to buy property now? say i have 1.5 million cash, should i just buy one unit and pay cash or should i take a loan? i do not forsee a need to use the cash for any other purpose and its rotting in the banks anyway with their miserable interest rates.
bank said they got their valuation from DTZ ..
so thats biased ..
if DTZ wants to actively sell RG ..they can give a valn of 1200 psf then RG can never fall below that ..regardless mkt sentiment ..
if DTZ doesnt want to sell Cosmopolitan ..they can give a valn of 900 psf ..
strange right ???
yeah...strange bedfellows...just like banks in usa trying to sell off their "toxic" assets to private funds...a lot of opportunities for kelong :)
Just go with a local bank. We have 25% chance of meeting.
Could you give more details, not 1/4 information? You only answer 1/4 the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which bank and branch?
Btw, since when did we have 4 local banks again? I'm only aware of UOB, OCBC, DBS.
proud owner
01-04-09, 16:00
Could you give more details, not 1/4 information? You only answer 1/4 the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which bank and branch?
Btw, since when did we have 4 local banks again? I'm only aware of UOB, OCBC, DBS.
DBS is hardly 'local' --more govt lah ...
at least you get 1/4 reply
he ask me which project/neighbor i replied him .. he gave no 0 reply
Be careful what the RM verbally says and what's written in the LO / mortgage doc.
As said earlier, these interest-servicing loans are risky affairs.
But I have seen many customers who choose their loan to qualify as asset based financing i.e. x% LTV. I believe it's between around 50-60% for all banks. They typically buy a few properties, and place an FD equivalent of abt 12months installment with the same bank.
If I hit toto and win $1.5m, I would by 2 condo at 60% LTV, place a $100k FD, redeem my HDB loan, buy $200k of bluechip shares, ask for no-pay leave to travel world for 6 months...
Regards
wah good advice. which 2 condos can i buy that fits the above budget? i have no loans to pay off (car also bought with 100% cash...funny thing is i read in the papers many bought cars with cash but my SE told me less than almost no one paid cash for his/her beemer)
shares i am not ready to invest now...travel round the world i cannot due to work commitments.
are you a RM? maybe i can transfer my funds to your bank (i only have accts with uob and dbs now for local banks) so you can at least gain something from giving out financial advice. thanks
Citibank is locally incorporated.
Could you give more details, not 1/4 information? You only answer 1/4 the question asked by fellow forum-er.
Which bank and branch?
Btw, since when did we have 4 local banks again? I'm only aware of UOB, OCBC, DBS.
Not RM. I am not good at sales. Neither am I good at property hunting.
Appreciate your kind offer, but do leave the goodies to your agent and his bank contacts. Tough times for them.
I am holding out for a 3-4 bdrm one leicester for ~$750 psf
and seaview for ~$750 psf and thomson euro asia for ~1k psf. Love the target units, but owners still not budging.
regards
wah good advice. which 2 condos can i buy that fits the above budget? i have no loans to pay off (car also bought with 100% cash...funny thing is i read in the papers many bought cars with cash but my SE told me less than almost no one paid cash for his/her beemer)
shares i am not ready to invest now...travel round the world i cannot due to work commitments.
are you a RM? maybe i can transfer my funds to your bank (i only have accts with uob and dbs now for local banks) so you can at least gain something from giving out financial advice. thanks
proud owner
01-04-09, 16:27
Not RM. I am not good at sales. Neither am I good at property hunting.
Appreciate your kind offer, but do leave the goodies to your agent and his bank contacts. Tough times for them.
I am holding out for a 3-4 bdrm one leicester for ~$750 psf
and seaview for ~$750 psf and thomson euro asia for ~1k psf. Love the target units, but owners still not budging.
regards
So repanse71
what do you have to say about what the bank told me about DTZ's valuation ? and my comment on it being bias ?
AFAIK, this quarter, varsity park valuation drops between 10-15%.
I got no stellar cases this year.
I am not sure how valuation is done. You may need to ask for alternate valuations.
Nope, I not from DTZ and I don't deal with valuers.
regards
the one i ask is FH stellar while the nighbuor is 99 yr varsity park
are you from DTZ ??
proud owner
01-04-09, 16:34
AFAIK, this quarter, varsity park valuation drops between 10-15%.
I got no stellar cases this year.
I am not sure how valuation is done. You may need to ask for alternate valuations.
Nope, I not from DTZ and I don't deal with valuers.
regards
but not to launch price right ??
i really find it fishy ... i still believe if DTZ die die want to help Ferrel 'maintain' the price ..they can give RG 1200 psf valuation ..
meanwhile they can give others in the vicinity 1000-950 psf ...
but to have a property whose last transaction in feb 725 psf fall to 485 psf (launch price in 2006) ..then all prop in dist 9 10 11 will be back to late 2006 psf as well ...
so so fishy
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.