View Full Version : UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site
bargain hunter
03-07-19, 19:49
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/real-estate/uol-uic-tie-up-places-top-bid-for-clementi-ave-1-site
UOL-UIC tie-up places top bid for Clementi Ave 1 site
WED, JUL 03, 2019 - 5:56 PM
KALPANA
[email protected]@KalpanaBT
A STATE tender for a 99-year leasehold private housing site along Clementi Avenue 1 has attracted five bids.
Units of UOL Group and United Industrial Corporation tied up to place the top bid of S$491.3 million, which works out to S$788.31 per square foot per plot ratio (psf ppr).
Another state tender, for an executive condominium or EC housing site along Canberra Link in the Sembawang area, has drawn eight bids.
The highest bid, from MCC Land (Singapore), was at S$233.89 million, translating to about S$566 psf ppr.
ECs are a public-private housing hybrid.
Both land parcels have 99-year leasehold tenure. Tenders for both parcels closed on Wednesday.
bargain hunter
03-07-19, 19:51
looking at the bid prices, the winners clearly don't expect new launch prices to fall below 1300psf nor believe there is oversupply.
devilplate
06-07-19, 22:48
My impression of UOL tends to snap up good land deals. They buy when there is fear in the market. Imo, this price is in favor to the developer.
Parkwest sold to SHY at around 850psf.
bargain hunter
07-07-19, 11:32
My impression of UOL tends to snap up good land deals. They buy when there is fear in the market. Imo, this price is in favor to the developer.
Parkwest sold to SHY at around 850psf.
wow bro, when was the last time u posted man hahaha. back after so many years MIA? :)
devilplate
07-07-19, 16:54
Many old timers had gone missing. Probably retired from enbloc deals.
Possibly some have returned their ICs.
Others have forgotten their passwords or can’t be bothered to retrieve them.
looking at the bid prices, the winners clearly don't expect new launch prices to fall below 1300psf nor believe there is oversupply.
Is the clementi avenue 1 site not bidded 70psf lower than the one at former park west by SHY?
Developers are the ones controlling the market now. Even if there is oversupply, they can still maintain launch pricing however they like.
The 5 sole bids speaks alot about the sentiments among developers.
This site is subject to the more stringent building criteria implemented recently. All else being equal, a lower number of units can be built. Average size is larger, with more space set aside for common facilities.
Car park lot provision would be less than the number of units by a greater margin.
Not Apple to Apple comparison.
Is the clementi avenue 1 site not bidded 70psf lower than the one at former park west by SHY?
Developers are the ones controlling the market now. Even if there is oversupply, they can still maintain launch pricing however they like.
The 5 sole bids speaks alot about the sentiments among developers.
This site is subject to the more stringent building criteria implemented recently. All else being equal, a lower number of units can be built. Average size is larger, with more space set aside for common facilities.
Car park lot provision would be less than the number of units by a greater margin.
Not Apple to Apple comparison.
Still, the clementi avenue 1 site is arguably more attractive, both location and price-wise.
SHY needs to be creative to sell those thousand-plus units.
Not sure why you think so. Can elaborate with evidence?
Park West side has more depth away from AYE while Clementi Ave 1 site is a strip of land wrapping AYE and Clementi Ave 2.
Exact distance to MRT or Clementi Mall, Park West site is shorter by about 30%.
The most famed Pri school (NHPS) in the vicinity is only maybe 100-200m away from Park West site, although Ave 1 site boasts two premier Secondary schools.
Still, the clementi avenue 1 site is arguably more attractive, both location and price-wise.
SHY needs to be creative to sell those thousand-plus units.
Not sure why you think so. Can elaborate with evidence?
Park West side has more depth away from AYE while Clementi Ave 1 site is a strip of land wrapping AYE and Clementi Ave 2.
Exact distance to MRT or Clementi Mall, Park West site is shorter by about 30%.
The most famed Pri school (NHPS) in the vicinity is only maybe 100-200m away from Park West site, although Ave 1 site boasts two premier Secondary schools.
In terms of distance from AYE, both are just beside AYE and the difference is minimal. UOL will probably put the tennis court on the side too.
Distance to MRT, yes Park west is slightly nearer but I don't think that is material.
As you said, Clementi avenue 1 is closer to premier institutions like nan hua, NUS high school, NUS, international community school, United world college, ASCI and more. Above all, it is nearer to the city, holland etc.
What is one nan hua primary school? It is also only a few bus stops away from clementi avenue 1 which costs 50cents for students.
Ammenities wise, you have a food court and fairprice supermarket just across the road at casa clementi.
Price wise, clementi avenue 1 is likely to be lower.
UOL vs SHY, which is better?
There are many reasons that CA1 is better than jalan L.
bargain hunter
08-07-19, 16:37
Is the clementi avenue 1 site not bidded 70psf lower than the one at former park west by SHY?
Developers are the ones controlling the market now. Even if there is oversupply, they can still maintain launch pricing however they like.
The 5 sole bids speaks alot about the sentiments among developers.
this being UOL, 788psf prob looking for 1388psf minimum selling price? you are right that developers are the ones controlling the market but their view is that they are able to find buyers at 1300 to 1400psf it seems. this segment is probably still under or just adequately supplied.
The sound level is quite different and every metre away counts to moderate it. A squarish site has a much greater potential to mitigate this than a longish one. That being said, AYE might be moved southward in the distant future.
Usually parents may choose to site their residence within walking distance to premier Primary schools (where distance to school influences P1 registration balloting) but not so much for Secondary schools which is based on merit. Secondary school students are also more robust to travel to their schools, particularly a few bus stops away. Thus school-wise its one up for J. Lempeng.
Amenities-wise you might be right as Ave 1 site has faster access to food courts, but not forgetting that just across the expressway for J Lempeng, there is also Newest and the Ayer Rajah food centre, quite walkable distance as well.
But one crucial factor determining the final demand and pricing is the car park lots. While J. Lempeng plans should have been approved with more provision for lots, Ave 1 is likely subject to stringent lot allocation or bidding policies. That will make a whole lot of difference for owner occupiers, although it might not be so for tenants.
I am not vested in both. Just listing my honest opinion.
In terms of distance from AYE, both are just beside AYE and the difference is minimal. UOL will probably put the tennis court on the side too.
Distance to MRT, yes Park west is slightly nearer but I don't think that is material.
As you said, Clementi avenue 1 is closer to premier institutions like nan hua, NUS high school, NUS, international community school, United world college, ASCI and more. Above all, it is nearer to the city, holland etc.
What is one nan hua primary school? It is also only a few bus stops away from clementi avenue 1 which costs 50cents for students.
Ammenities wise, you have a food court and fairprice supermarket just across the road at casa clementi.
Price wise, clementi avenue 1 is likely to be lower.
UOL vs SHY, which is better?
There are many reasons that CA1 is better than jalan L.
bargain hunter
08-07-19, 17:23
it is also way more important to be 1km of nan hua primary than to be that near nan hua sec for e.g. due to the primary school balloting system.
it is also way more important to be 1km of nan hua primary than to be that near nan hua sec for e.g. due to the primary school balloting system.
I did not know primary school is distance based to the extent of each metre...
I think clementi avenue is within 2km of nan hua. Does the additional km make a difference?
bargain hunter
08-07-19, 17:48
I did not know primary school is distance based to the extent of each metre...
I think clementi avenue is within 2km of nan hua. Does the additional km make a difference?
(each meter our bro is referring to distance from AYE, please do not confuse)
for primary school, definitely. even within 1km balloting is required for nan hua for non alumni so people are just buying a chance to ballot (i am not sure what is the success rate for the ballot as it also varies from year to year). traditionally for nan hua primary, for 1 to 2km category, there is ZERO chance to get to ballot at all.
(each meter our bro is referring to distance from AYE, please do not confuse)
for primary school, definitely. even within 1km balloting is required for nan hua for non alumni so people are just buying a chance to ballot (i am not sure what is the success rate for the ballot as it also varies from year to year). traditionally for nan hua primary, for 1 to 2km category, there is ZERO chance to get to ballot at all.
Hahaha. I know.
You are right, 1km and below stands a higher chance of being admitted to nan hua primary. But I think the number of parents who purchase the condo for the purpose of enrolling their kid to nan hua will be much less than 10% of the available units.
Sales volume at trilinq does not look strong. Looks like not many want their kids to enroll to Nan hua primary this year.
devilplate
08-07-19, 22:03
Seriously this Nan Hua school thingy is overplayed by agents.
I read OCR subject to 85 sqm restriction but is there an article talking about lesser carpark lots?
Share the link pls....tia
Seriously this Nan Hua school thingy is overplayed by agents.
I read OCR subject to 85 sqm restriction but is there an article talking about lesser carpark lots?
Share the link pls....tia
https://www.salary.sg/2018/best-primary-schools-2018/
Nan Hua not exactly among the most popular primary schools.
Indeed just a sales tactic.
devilplate
08-07-19, 22:11
this being UOL, 788psf prob looking for 1388psf minimum selling price? you are right that developers are the ones controlling the market but their view is that they are able to find buyers at 1300 to 1400psf it seems. this segment is probably still under or just adequately supplied.
Just did a check and saw resale units hitting $16xxpsf for low to mid floor at Trilinq.....Wow
Anyway, 9years ago i would never imagine amber park can sell for $2500psf. Huat ar!
Just did a check and saw resale units hitting $16xxpsf for low to mid floor at Trilinq.....Wow
Anyway, 9years ago i would never imagine amber park can sell for $2500psf. Huat ar!
Huat ar! Why developers so stupid never bid for Clementi Avenue 1? SHY huat ah! UOL huat ah!
(i would recommend all to look at (and analyse) the sales data yourself before jumping to conclusions)
Right there at position 25 leh...???
Less than 20% vacancy wor.
https://www.salary.sg/2018/best-primary-schools-2018/
Nan Hua not exactly among the most popular primary schools.
Indeed just a sales tactic.
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/lta-new-parking-standards-car-park-developers-10912218
There you go.
Details are not yet but new buyers could examine.
Seriously this Nan Hua school thingy is overplayed by agents.
I read OCR subject to 85 sqm restriction but is there an article talking about lesser carpark lots?
Share the link pls....tia
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/lta-new-parking-standards-car-park-developers-10912218
There you go.
Details are not yet but new buyers could examine.
With the sudden spike in prices, some buyers are probably squeezed dry alr, with nothing left for a car, esp those who buy near MRT.
I would think both may appeal to different kinds of buyers.
With the sudden spike in prices, some buyers are probably squeezed dry alr, with nothing left for a car, esp those who buy near MRT.
The last cooling measure imposed a 5% non-remissible ABSD on land purchase.
So UOL’s land cost should include this additional 5% to have a like for like comparison just on land cost only?
Any guru can advise?
I think so. Nett nett, their costs will only increase.
Recently there were also new requirements requiring transport plan to be made and approved. All these would add to the costs. Just not sure if only the latest was affected only or both were affected.
The last cooling measure imposed a 5% non-remissible ABSD on land purchase.
So UOL’s land cost should include this additional 5% to have a like for like comparison just on land cost only?
Any guru can advise?
Another thing which I am not sure if it affected only the newest developments or both, is the banning of sand export to Singapore (from Malaysia) from last year.
If the developer does not have stockpiled access to it or already secured the rights, construction costs is expected to rise further as well.
I think so. Nett nett, their costs will only increase.
Recently there were also new requirements requiring transport plan to be made and approved. All these would add to the costs. Just not sure if only the latest was affected only or both were affected.
Another thing which I am not sure if it affected only the newest developments or both, is the banning of sand export to Singapore (from Malaysia) from last year.
If the developer does not have stockpiled access to it or already secured the rights, construction costs is expected to rise further as well.
Fake news? It is sea sand for use of land reclamation, little or nothing to do with construction..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/08/malaysia-cuts-sand-exports-singapore-jeopardising-expansion/
Definitely not fake news.
It limits Singapore's land expansion so new sources will have to be found, which makes land even costlier to produce (reclaim). If land is costlier to produce, can property be cheaper?
The sand used for reclamation is also the same sand used for construction.
Banning cockles used to make char kway teow also affects cockles used for eating raw on a plate, or those used to make laksa, chili and garlic cockles etc. In the end, no cockle supply.
Fake news? It is sea sand for use of land reclamation, little or nothing to do with construction..
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/08/malaysia-cuts-sand-exports-singapore-jeopardising-expansion/
Definitely not fake news.
It limits Singapore's land expansion so new sources will have to be found, which makes land even costlier to produce (reclaim). If land is costlier to produce, can property be cheaper?
The sand used for reclamation is also the same sand used for construction.
Banning cockles used to make char kway teow also affects cockles used for eating raw on a plate, or those used to make laksa, chili and garlic cockles etc. In the end, no cockle supply.
I am sorry but fake news again?
1. Is the government reclaiming any land for residential development? From what I know, it is for the new Terminal 5 and Tuas Port and not for any residential development.. If land is costlier to produce, government will raise your taxes.
2. Are you sure the sand for reclamation is same for construction?? Which part of construction need sand? Do you mean concrete and steel?
Please check out construction material prices...
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/singapore/construction-materials-demand-and-prices/construction-materials-price-cement
Population and economic growth slowing, more elderly going to pass on than new births can replace, are you sure property is definitely trend upwards forever?
I am appalled really at your ability to see only one tip of the iceberg and say, that is a small piece of ice.
1. Why does Govt need to shift the Pasir Panjang Port to Tuas? (Hint: ever heard of the Greater Southern Waterfront?)
2. Govt already raised the tax burden hugely on the private property owners (through the more than a dozen cooling measures). Yes, partly because land is getting much harder to solicit, reserve, or create. Spot on actually.
3. Next time when people go and do construction, go and see what they mix cement with before making every pillar and ground structure that makes the building. Whyfore does HDB need to stockpile sand? For reclamation mah??? Wake up to reality, friend.
I am sorry but fake news again?
1. Is the government reclaiming any land for residential development? From what I know, it is for the new Terminal 5 and Tuas Port and not for any residential development.. If land is costlier to produce, government will raise your taxes.
2. Are you sure the sand for reclamation is same for construction?? Which part of construction need sand? Do you mean concrete and steel?
Please check out construction material prices...
https://www.ceicdata.com/en/singapore/construction-materials-demand-and-prices/construction-materials-price-cement
Population and economic growth slowing, more elderly going to pass on than new births can replace, are you sure property is definitely trend upwards forever?
I am appalled really at your ability to see only one tip of the iceberg and say, that is a small piece of ice.
1. Why does Govt need to shift the Pasir Panjang Port to Tuas? (Hint: ever heard of the Greater Southern Waterfront?)
2. Govt already raised the tax burden hugely on the private property owners (through the more than a dozen cooling measures). Yes, partly because land is getting much harder to solicit, reserve, or create. Spot on actually.
3. Next time when people go and do construction, go and see what they mix cement with before making every pillar and ground structure that makes the building. Whyfore does HDB need to stockpile sand? For reclamation mah??? Wake up to reality, friend.
I am afraid you are the one seeing only the tip of the iceberg. I am not appalled because I don't expect much from uncles here (in general).
1. Everyone knows what is the greater southern waterfront. It shows you that there are going to be tens of thousands of private apartments in the pipeline around that area.
2. Singapore's 3 largest source of tax are corporate tax, personal income tax and GST. Stamp duty only forms 5% of revenue. Land may be expensive to reclaim and the costs are paid for by these taxes. Whether or not that translates to higher land prices is another issue altogether. If taxes do increase, what does this tell you of disposable income and spending?
Source: https://graphics.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/Interactives/2018/02/singapore-budget-revenue-and-spending-breakdown-2018/index.html
3. I have to agree sand is one component of construction but it is not the bulk of it. Unless you are a experienced worker in the construction industry or hold a civil engineering degree, no one can take your words as it is. You claim that seasand is the same kind use for in construction, but let me tell you ... every kind of commodity has different grades and category. Even if what you say is true, Malaysia is not the only source of sand, there are other countries such as Cambodia and Indonesia. At most, your "breaking news" results in a 5% increase in overall construction cost?? Is that a big deal?
In case you missed my link, construction material price has been declining. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/singapore/construction-materials-demand-and-prices/construction-materials-price-cement
Not sure who should "wake up to reality"... Impressed by your ability to make a mountain out of a molehill because of malaysia's seasand.
Another thing which I am not sure if it affected only the newest developments or both, is the banning of sand export to Singapore (from Malaysia) from last year.
If the developer does not have stockpiled access to it or already secured the rights, construction costs is expected to rise further as well.
What is your motive? Are you agent or heavily vested in the market?
Here is official data on construction material price for reference. https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/createDataTable.action?refId=14810
There is no sign of material prices rising and they are far from the peak in 2007/2008. Property in 2008 must have been crazy expensive... hmmm
bargain hunter
09-07-19, 21:24
in the meantime, dyson guy has paid $100m for the Wallich super penthouse. ok ok, i will start a new thread on this. :)
in the meantime, dyson guy has paid $100m for the Wallich super penthouse. ok ok, i will start a new thread on this. :)
You could have posted it in the super penthouses or wallich residence threads. Anyway the selling price is not disclosed yet.
For all you know, I could be younger than you...
Anyway, I did write that "I am not sure if..." So those views are meant for those who are capable of objectively examining the evidence.
Cambodia already banned sand to SG in 2017, followed by Malaysia in 2018.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-40590695
Indonesia already banned sand to SG for a dozen years since 2007.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/5c6485bb-c357-48be-9d12-bf7c1d422d0e
You need 2019-2022 construction costs data to be sure if the ban has impact. If you want to use any other Southeast Asian countries, please Google and do your homework first.
My comments are always based on facts plus personal inference. They are always subject to scrutiny and alternative views. They are meant for people who are open-minded in recognising and accepting ideas.
Some other resources:
"River and lake sand, however, contain the right-sized particles for landfills and strong concrete.
Sand makes up about 80 per cent of cement, said a 2018 report by WWF on the impact of sand mining on the ecosystem."
https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/explainer-why-sand-so-highly-valued-and-consequences-overmining
Seek first to read and understand, then to comment.
In case you missed my link, construction material price has been declining. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/singapore/construction-materials-demand-and-prices/construction-materials-price-cement
Not sure who should "wake up to reality"... Impressed by your ability to make a mountain out of a molehill because of malaysia's seasand.
That being said, I did learn something about sea and river / lake sand differences.
And that there are still illegal paths to extract sand despite the ban.
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/what-is-the-reason-for-not-using-sea-and-desert-sand-for-construction/article7489192.ece
Nonetheless, it does not detract from the case of rising costs.
PropVestor
10-07-19, 11:17
Not sure I heard this correctly but those buildings that are torn down which is taken back to the state like Rochor Centre. Their materials have a second life.
I am quite certain they are not wasted and will find someway into construction like reclamation. Every grain of sand counts in Singapore.
The sand used for reclamation is also the same sand used for construction.
You claimed that seasand is the same kind used for construction.
Good that you are learning to read then comment now. Still, we are unsure of the different grades of sand so unable to make meaningful conclusions.
However, data well show that we are able to cope very well after the ban of sand from indonesia, with cement prices declining since 2008.
I think labour costs and developer land bids have a much greater impact on property prices than sand costs.
Some quotes from an article I just read (JUL19)... https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/in-blow-to-singapores-expansion-malaysia-bans-sea-sand-exports
"Sea sand is mostly used for land reclamation, while river sand is a core component in constructions materials like cement." As you said, its river and lake sand that is used for cement, not the seasand involved in the Malaysia ban...
"Singapore's Ministry of National Development, which oversees sand imports, did not directly respond to questions about a ban by Malaysia but said it had multiple sources of sand and was cutting back its use of the commodity."
"Sand is imported on a commercial basis from various countries to ensure resilience in our sand supply,"
I am very open-minded, you should be too. I think my case is stronger than yours.
That being said, I did learn something about sea and river / lake sand differences.
And that there are still illegal paths to extract sand despite the ban.
https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/energy-and-environment/what-is-the-reason-for-not-using-sea-and-desert-sand-for-construction/article7489192.ece
Nonetheless, it does not detract from the case of rising costs.
Good, so you know the difference between sea and river sand now...
So will sea sand still cause huge impact on property prices?
I am always open-minded. This is from your article.
"Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.
The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."
"Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.
That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.
The data does not distinguish between types of sand.
Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."
Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.
Good, so you know the difference between sea and river sand now...
So will sea sand still cause huge impact on property prices?
See in CAPS below. Remember coincidentally also that property prices shot up from 2008 onwards with a short dip in 2009 due to financial crisis.
"When Indonesia banned exports to Singapore in 2007, citing environmental concerns, it caused a "sand crisis" in the city-state that saw BUILDING ACTIVITY almost come to a halt. Singapore has since bolstered its stockpiles. "
I am always open-minded. This is from your article.
"Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.
The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."
"Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.
That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.
The data does not distinguish between types of sand.
Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."
Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.
I am always open-minded. This is from your article.
"Two traders importing sand to Singapore, who both asked not to be named, said the commodity is becoming scarcer and driving Singapore to source sand from as far as India, which would push up costs. Shipping is the biggest single cost in acquiring sand.
The traders added Singapore has been stockpiling sand in recent years which could provide a buffer against any immediate bottleneck in supplies."
"Singapore imported 59 million tonnes of sand from Malaysia in 2018, at a cost of US$347 million, according to United Nations Comtrade data, which is based on information provided by individual countries' customs offices.
That accounted for 97 per cent of Singapore's total sand imports in the year by volume, and 95 per cent of Malaysia's global sand sales.
The data does not distinguish between types of sand.
Mr Mahathir, who put in place a similar sea sand ban when he was prime minister in the 1990s, has also tightened regulations on river and estuary sand exports, the government sources added."
Apparently, the ban is not just on sea sand.
Well, it may have an impact on construction costs but looks very minimal and this sand issue alone won't cause property prices to rise by $100psf. If construction cost do rise by that much, developers will be smart to adjust their land bids too.
Take a look at construction material prices published by gov.
https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/displayChart.action
Concrete and granite prices looks fairly stable. It is steel that is fluctuating wildly.
Lets stop making such a big fuss out of sea sand.
http://blog.nus.edu.sg/awalkinthepark/2016/10/18/land-reclamation-in-singapore/
"This involves dredging from lake beds and sea beds in other countries to supply us with the sand..."
Apparently lake sand can also be used for reclamation. They may be substitutes of each other, even if they are not perfect substitutes.
Thus, there will be some channelling of the lake sand reserved for buildings towards reclamation instead. Tell me that does not affect prices?
You claimed that seasand is the same kind used for construction.
Good that you are learning to read then comment now. Still, we are unsure of the different grades of sand so unable to make meaningful conclusions.
However, data well show that we are able to cope very well after the ban of sand from indonesia, with cement prices declining since 2008.
I think labour costs and developer land bids have a much greater impact on property prices than sand costs.
Some quotes from an article I just read (JUL19)... https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/government-economy/in-blow-to-singapores-expansion-malaysia-bans-sea-sand-exports
"Sea sand is mostly used for land reclamation, while river sand is a core component in constructions materials like cement." As you said, its river and lake sand that is used for cement, not the seasand involved in the Malaysia ban...
"Singapore's Ministry of National Development, which oversees sand imports, did not directly respond to questions about a ban by Malaysia but said it had multiple sources of sand and was cutting back its use of the commodity."
"Sand is imported on a commercial basis from various countries to ensure resilience in our sand supply,"
I am very open-minded, you should be too. I think my case is stronger than yours.
River and estuary sands were also similarly banned from what I understand. So stop harping about sea sand.
Well, it may have an impact on construction costs but looks very minimal and this sand issue alone won't cause property prices to rise by $100psf. If construction cost do rise by that much, developers will be smart to adjust their land bids too.
Take a look at construction material prices published by gov.
https://www.tablebuilder.singstat.gov.sg/publicfacing/displayChart.action
Concrete and granite prices looks fairly stable. It is steel that is fluctuating wildly.
Lets stop making such a big fuss out of sea sand.
http://blog.nus.edu.sg/awalkinthepark/2016/10/18/land-reclamation-in-singapore/
"This involves dredging from lake beds and sea beds in other countries to supply us with the sand..."
Apparently lake sand can also be used for reclamation. They may be substitutes of each other, even if they are not perfect substitutes.
Thus, there will be some channelling of the lake sand reserved for buildings towards reclamation instead. Tell me that does not affect prices?
Not saying sand won't affect construction cost but by how much? $50psf? $200psf or $8psf? The impact will not be as drastic as you are trying to describe.
Developers award construction contracts through tender. Usually the lowest bid wins so the most resourceful and cost-effective construction company will get the contract. These companies usually have economies of scale and able to reduce costs through other means such as technology and automation.
OK noted.
But thanks for the resources sent.
The data is very worrying indeed. I looked at the cost of concreting sand, concrete and cement costs in this table at the period when Indonesia banned sand (2007). As of now, we have managed to stockpile so price pressures are not felt yet. Refer to attachment.
But it will run out in a couple of years as well...
Not saying sand won't affect construction cost but by how much? $50psf? $200psf or $8psf? The impact will not be as drastic as you are trying to describe.
Developers award construction contracts through tender. Usually the lowest bid wins so the most resourceful and cost-effective construction company will get the contract. These companies usually have economies of scale and able to reduce costs through other means such as technology and automation.
bargain hunter
10-07-19, 16:20
it all adds up. higher comms for agents as well. difficult to expect UOL to sell cheap. if parc clematis sells at 14xx then at best uol undercut and sell at 1388psf loh.
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/p1-registration-6-popular-schools-oversubscribed-in-third-phase-children-may
Popular or not popular?
You decide.
But the facts speak for themselves.
https://www.salary.sg/2018/best-primary-schools-2018/
Nan Hua not exactly among the most popular primary schools.
Indeed just a sales tactic.
bargain hunter
17-07-19, 15:37
"This phase is for children whose siblings or parents are alumni, or whose parents are staff of the school, or who are currently in a Ministry of Education kindergarten located in the primary school."
balloting is conducted for > 2km so at this point it doesn't matter whether the applicant stays at this UOL site or Parc Clematis. however, for the remaining 40 places up for grabs in phase 2B and phase 2C every year, balloting has always been conducted for those who stay within 1km which means the residents of this UOL site is automatically out of contention.
"This phase is for children whose siblings or parents are alumni, or whose parents are staff of the school, or who are currently in a Ministry of Education kindergarten located in the primary school."
balloting is conducted for > 2km so at this point it doesn't matter whether the applicant stays at this UOL site or Parc Clematis. however, for the remaining 40 places up for grabs in phase 2B and phase 2C every year, balloting has always been conducted for those who stay within 1km which means the residents of this UOL site is automatically out of contention.
Thanks for your information.
Unlike Mr Kelong who only reads whatever he likes, you have provided the big picture.
True also for this round.
But may take effect next round or next years.
But the main point is the undeniable popularity status which somehow our Sister denied vehemently.
He gave a static big picture. I have suggested a more dynamic, enduring big picture.
So where is the evidence that this is not considered a popular primary school? Share leh...
Thanks for your information.
Unlike Mr Kelong who only reads whatever he likes, you have provided the big picture.
He gave a static big picture. I have suggested a more dynamic, enduring big picture.
So where is the evidence that this is not considered a popular primary school? Share leh...
I only said it is not in the top 20 by showing you the stats from last year, never said it was not popular but it is not that near the top.
You are trying to prove that many parents will buy your parc clementias just because of nan hua primary... you must love the project a lot.
Firstly, please stop twisting your words. Nowhere in your threads did you indicate top 20 out of top 10. Else I must be blind so please point out which post.
Secondly, this list you sent is not even sorted by vacancy proportion as a proxy for how popular a school is. For e.g. Sengkang Green Primary (number 21) has 19.6% vacancy as compared to Nan Hua at 12.5%. The listing is based on the enrolment size and big schools go up higher in the list.
The article went as far as to bold all the schools with less than 20% vacancy which you chose to ignore.
So how else do you intend to twist your words?
If I am wrong, I will apologise for reading blindly.
https://www.salary.sg/2018/best-primary-schools-2018/
Nan Hua not exactly among the most popular primary schools.
Indeed just a sales tactic.
Firstly, please stop twisting your words. Nowhere in your threads did you indicate top 20 out of top 10. Else I must be blind so please point out which post.
Secondly, this list you sent is not even sorted by vacancy proportion as a proxy for how popular a school is. For e.g. Sengkang Green Primary (number 21) has 19.6% vacancy as compared to Nan Hua at 12.5%. The listing is based on the enrolment size and big schools go up higher in the list.
The article went as far as to bold all the schools with less than 20% vacancy which you chose to ignore.
So how else do you intend to twist your words?
If I am wrong, I will apologise for reading blindly.
I may have interpreted that website wrongly but I have never said nan hua was not popular but only not as popular as you are trying to describe... so please point out which post.
You are trying too hard to prove that nan hua is so popular that many parents will purchase parc clementias (and push up the prices just like the seasand argument)... Are you working in Singhaiyi or vested heavily in the area/market?
Neither.
I just prefer the facts. Plus point acknowledge as plus point. Negative then negative.
As long as based on facts, I am satisfied.
I may have interpreted that website wrongly but I have never said nan hua was not popular but only not as popular as you are trying to describe... so please point out which post.
You are trying too hard to prove that nan hua is so popular that many parents will purchase parc clementias (and push up the prices just like the seasand argument)... Are you working in Singhaiyi or vested heavily in the area/market?
bargain hunter
17-07-19, 17:53
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/education/p1-registration-6-popular-schools-oversubscribed-in-third-phase-children-may
Popular or not popular?
You decide.
But the facts speak for themselves.
fact: its in the top 6 most popular for phase 2A2.
To be precise, should be top 7. CHIJ St Nic already oversubscribed at 2A1.
fact: its in the top 6 most popular for phase 2A2.
To be precise, should be top 7. CHIJ St Nic already oversubscribed at 2A1.
I might be wrong. Any school fully subscribed at 2A1 this year?
bargain hunter
17-07-19, 21:45
I might be wrong. Any school fully subscribed at 2A1 this year?
there's a new rule which requires 40 places to be set aside for phase 2B and phase 2C.
there's a new rule which requires 40 places to be set aside for phase 2B and phase 2C.
Yes, I understand, but 2A1 there were some schools oversubscribed and need balloting in previous years.
Nanhua Phase 2A2, 8 places, 20+ applicants.
Phase 2B 20 places, 27 applicants.
Out of 1km all no chance to ballot.
Next phase 2C also the same.
I think that about sets the record straight for the future rental and buying demand within and out of 1km.
fact: its in the top 6 most popular for phase 2A2.
Nanhua Phase 2A2, 8 places, 20+ applicants.
Phase 2B 20 places, 27 applicants.
Out of 1km all no chance to ballot.
Next phase 2C also the same.
I think that about sets the record straight for the future rental and buying demand within and out of 1km.
So mr kelong, 2 questions.
1. Is nan hua the only school with such impressive application ratio?
2. How many of the units at parc clementais will be purchased by parents because of the p1 kid admission to nan hua? 200 units or 50 units or 15 units?
Don't forget, so many hdb flat at clementi, u think all buy parc clementais to get into your top school?
You are really trying too hard, from your sea sand argument to this... and talking about rental somemore!
Maybe 15units per year will be the minimum.
You really have no idea how many people are renting just to be within a certain distance to primary school.
The context here is to call an Apple and Apple. To compare the two locations objectively. Call a plus point a plus point.
So mr kelong, 2 questions.
1. Is nan hua the only school with such impressive application ratio?
2. How many of the units at parc clementais will be purchased by parents because of the p1 kid admission to nan hua? 200 units or 50 units or 15 units?
Don't forget, so many hdb flat at clementi, u think all buy parc clementais to get into your top school?
You are really trying too hard, from your sea sand argument to this... and talking about rental somemore!
Maybe 15units per year will be the minimum.
You really have no idea how many people are renting just to be within a certain distance to primary school.
The context here is to call an Apple and Apple. To compare the two locations objectively. Call a plus point a plus point.
That is your opinion. Knowing that you love this project so much, we well know it is biased.
So, how many are renting to be within distance to primary school. Many of us have no idea, maybe you can provide some data?
It is indeed plus point, but definite not the kind of boost it will give to parc clementais demand or price that you are trying to describe.
As I said, there are plenty of hdb flats there. For AVERAGE young parents in late 30s, you think they able to buy parc clementais or more likely to go for HDBs?
Those rich young parents are more likely to go for Tao Nan, Henry Park or ACS...
bargain hunter
24-07-19, 07:55
assuming parc clematis goes for 14xxpsf, i think its still affordable. UOL will also attempt to sell their mandated bigger units for this new project at 14xx in future if possible i think.
Nah, this is not my first love.
My first loves are Park Suites and 1 Holland, but I will not be able to afford either of hem, and Park Suites is being sold not as FH as far as I understand.
I was not actually commenting on how good Parc Clematis is.
My point was merely that there are location and site-specific disadvantages of new sites that are sold, including more restrictions and lower development capacity, which helps to explain why the bidded price in this case seems a tad low. On paper, potential buyers feel better since bid price seems to have stopped increasing. But in fact, the offering has diminished in its "quality" as a way to manage the psf price.
That is your opinion. Knowing that you love this project so much, we well know it is biased.
So, how many are renting to be within distance to primary school. Many of us have no idea, maybe you can provide some data?
It is indeed plus point, but definite not the kind of boost it will give to parc clementais demand or price that you are trying to describe.
As I said, there are plenty of hdb flats there. For AVERAGE young parents in late 30s, you think they able to buy parc clementais or more likely to go for HDBs?
Those rich young parents are more likely to go for Tao Nan, Henry Park or ACS...
Nah, this is not my first love.
My first loves are Park Suites and 1 Holland, but I will not be able to afford either of hem, and Park Suites is being sold not as FH as far as I understand.
I was not actually commenting on how good Parc Clematis is.
My point was merely that there are location and site-specific disadvantages of new sites that are sold, including more restrictions and lower development capacity, which helps to explain why the bidded price in this case seems a tad low. On paper, potential buyers feel better since bid price seems to have stopped increasing. But in fact, the offering has diminished in its "quality" as a way to manage the psf price.
So UOL's development at clementi avenue 1 will be of worse quality than parc clementais. I see....
devilplate
25-07-19, 21:03
Imo, those who bought any of the recent new launches and also kena absd 12/15% will probably take at least 10 yrs to sell at breakeven price. Lol
devilplate
25-07-19, 21:07
Be patient my dear friends, one day absd will be removed.....and when that happens, nobody dare to buy lolol.
bargain hunter
25-07-19, 22:04
Imo, those who bought any of the recent new launches and also kena absd 12/15% will probably take at least 10 yrs to sell at breakeven price. Lol
seems like many found ways to not pay 12% absd such as dumping their hdb flats.
Actually depends on HDB location and how costly the development one bought into.
12% of a 1 mil private is 120,000.
A well located HDB can recover this within 3-4 years.
seems like many found ways to not pay 12% absd such as dumping their hdb flats.
devilplate
26-07-19, 09:42
Hassle free dividends from blue chip and reits anytime over pathetic rental yield for now. Even almost risk free SSB around 2% is a better bet but max 200k per person lolol.
devilplate
26-07-19, 09:44
seems like many found ways to not pay 12% absd such as dumping their hdb flats.
This is call hdb upgradder....different lah.
I am talking about investors....well....buy under trust....5 kids.....buy 1 each lol
bargain hunter
26-07-19, 14:32
This is call hdb upgradder....different lah.
I am talking about investors....well....buy under trust....5 kids.....buy 1 each lol
buy under trust also dun pay 12% absd mah
PropVestor
26-07-19, 15:43
I can fathom owning equities in trust (since they were 8 months old) for my kids but properties...not sure if I want to qualify them and all the implications of owning one in the future here in Singapore many moons from now. 5G government might have lots of policy enforcement in place circa 2040.
I was told banks will not usually loan you and more likely a 100% outlay of capital is required for your kids property since you already owed a few. Since there is no current inheritance tax (estate duties are abolished since 15 Feb 2008) here in Singapore, the transfer of wealth is relatively hassle free notwithstanding any legal contentious of the will itself.
bargain hunter
31-08-19, 20:45
heard Parc Clematis sold like hotcakes today clearing 300+ units. Luxus Hills also had 70+ of 78 landed homes snapped up in 2 days.
bargain hunter
01-09-19, 16:03
heard Parc Clematis sold like hotcakes today clearing 300+ units. Luxus Hills also had 70+ of 78 landed homes snapped up in 2 days.
https://www.edgeprop.sg/property-news/bukit-sembawang-sells-91-signature-collection-preview-weekend
confrimation for Luxus. Parc Clematis should hit the news by tomorrow.
bargain hunter
01-09-19, 21:09
https://www.edgeprop.sg/property-news/singhaiyi-sells-324-units-parc-clematis-launch-weekend
confirmation for parc clematis
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