View Full Version : Affordability Estimation of HDB Upgraders
As Teddybear requested, here is a basic analysis for proof of concept of affordability for this group.
Some basic info: At least 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats.
Firstly, what is the 4X ratio that Minister Khaw referred to? I believe that it was actually a reference parameter (as a whole for new BTO) in non-mature estates.
"We can now pause and see what else we can do to bring BTO prices in non-mature estates to, say, around four years of salary as it was before the current property cycle started," he said then.
Even the five-roomer, at 5.36 times the annual income, falls within the affordable range for that income group, he added.
Nor should we expect all flat types to be equally affordable by this ratio, said experts. Larger flats cost more times one's income because public housing is priced "according to ability to pay", said Prof Phang.
Housing affordability is not just about setting prices, but encouraging a match between house type and household income level, said Prof Sing.
"Lowering housing prices for larger flats is not a good strategy or policy... it may induce some lower-income households to buy large houses, which could further distort the housing price to income ratio," he said. - See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/new-hdb-flats-more-affordable-now#sthash.Tm45jVXP.dpuf
In other words, it is not meant for resales flats, mature estates, condominiums and other private properties.
Next is the income parameter. My estimation is that only the top 50th percentile will have intention to be upgraders. Why from 50th and not higher? The reason is because some of the younger ones have not reached the peak of their earning capacity but have already reached 50th percentile at a relatively young age. Nonetheless its good to be conservative and calculate from 60th to 80th percentile.
The harder thing is to calculate their actual income. Based on the stats:
https://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/pp-s21.pdf
In 2014, the 60th percentile earned $3,217 per household member while the 80th percentile earned 5,524. Multiplied by the average size of households of about 4 (5rm HDB), we are looking at $12-$22K income from work per household.
A BTO bought easily brings 150-200K of equity into the picture (difference between BTO and resales). Depending on the years worked, there must also have been savings and CPF.
We can do affordability calculations based on a few scenarios of age, household sizes, target (to upgrade or own multiple properties). Basically, it is very possible to upgrade once 5 year MOP is up and the breadwinners stay employed and active in growing their incomes.
Kelonguni,
Comments to your post:
1) Despite your claim of "analysis for proof of concept of affordability", I still didn't see any detail analysis and proof!
Shouldn't you be telling us how much a family unit (e.g. a 3 bedroom 1200 sqft) OCR private condos costs (say roughly $1.44 Millions!),
and linking that back to how much loan is needed and what is the minimum household income required for a HDB upgrader to pass TDSR to buy that $1.44M property???
Without linking household income of HDB upgraders to TDSR and to family-sized OCR property price, how could you conclude that:
"it is very possible to upgrade once 5 year MOP is up"??????????????????????????
2) Regarding your claim:
In 2014, the 60th percentile earned $3,217 per household member while the 80th percentile earned 5,524. Multiplied by the average size of households of about 4 (5rm HDB), we are looking at $12-$22K income from work per household.
I am 100% SURE that your figure of $12k to $22k income pm for the 60th-80th percentile is DEAD WRONG!
I suggest you check the document that you posted the link to us again and update us with the correct figures.
Please do not mislead other forumers! :mad-new:
3) In response to your statement: "The harder thing is to calculate their actual income...",
I would like to tell you that there is no need to calculate like you do and making baseless assumptions (like "average size of households of about 4"), you just need pick it out from the report!
Did you really read the report OR you read and still can't understand the data and statistics in there??? :scared-2:
Looking forward to your corrections and your "analysis for proof of concept of affordabilty" for the HDB upgraders (so that we now have meaningful discussions instead of empty and baseless talk from you)..........
As Teddybear requested, here is a basic analysis for proof of concept of affordability for this group.
Some basic info: At least 80% of Singaporeans live in HDB flats.
Firstly, what is the 4X ratio that Minister Khaw referred to? I believe that it was actually a reference parameter (as a whole for new BTO) in non-mature estates.
"We can now pause and see what else we can do to bring BTO prices in non-mature estates to, say, around four years of salary as it was before the current property cycle started," he said then.
Even the five-roomer, at 5.36 times the annual income, falls within the affordable range for that income group, he added.
Nor should we expect all flat types to be equally affordable by this ratio, said experts. Larger flats cost more times one's income because public housing is priced "according to ability to pay", said Prof Phang.
Housing affordability is not just about setting prices, but encouraging a match between house type and household income level, said Prof Sing.
"Lowering housing prices for larger flats is not a good strategy or policy... it may induce some lower-income households to buy large houses, which could further distort the housing price to income ratio," he said. - See more at: http://business.asiaone.com/news/new-hdb-flats-more-affordable-now#sthash.Tm45jVXP.dpuf
In other words, it is not meant for resales flats, mature estates, condominiums and other private properties.
Next is the income parameter. My estimation is that only the top 50th percentile will have intention to be upgraders. Why from 50th and not higher? The reason is because some of the younger ones have not reached the peak of their earning capacity but have already reached 50th percentile at a relatively young age. Nonetheless its good to be conservative and calculate from 60th to 80th percentile.
The harder thing is to calculate their actual income. Based on the stats:
https://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/pp-s21.pdf
In 2014, the 60th percentile earned $3,217 per household member while the 80th percentile earned 5,524. Multiplied by the average size of households of about 4 (5rm HDB), we are looking at $12-$22K income from work per household.
A BTO bought easily brings 150-200K of equity into the picture (difference between BTO and resales). Depending on the years worked, there must also have been savings and CPF.
We can do affordability calculations based on a few scenarios of age, household sizes, target (to upgrade or own multiple properties). Basically, it is very possible to upgrade once 5 year MOP is up and the breadwinners stay employed and active in growing their incomes.
Relax brudder. I will break it down for you slowly. You have no idea how upgraders work so I will have to break it into pieces for digestion.
Kelonguni,
Comments to your post:
1) Despite your claim of "analysis for proof of concept of affordability", I still didn't see any detail analysis and proof!
Shouldn't you be telling us how much a family unit (e.g. a 3 bedroom 1200 sqft) OCR private condos costs (say roughly $1.44 Millions!),
and linking that back to how much loan is needed and what is the minimum household income required for a HDB upgrader to pass TDSR to buy that $1.44M property???
Without linking household income of HDB upgraders to TDSR and to family-sized OCR property price, how could you conclude that:
"it is very possible to upgrade once 5 year MOP is up"??????????????????????????
2) Regarding your claim:
I am 100% SURE that your figure of $12k to $22k income pm for the 60th-80th percentile is DEAD WRONG!
I suggest you check the document that you posted the link to us again and update us with the correct figures.
Please do not mislead other forumers! :mad-new:
3) In response to your statement: "The harder thing is to calculate their actual income...",
I would like to tell you that there is no need to calculate like you do and making baseless assumptions (like "average size of households of about 4"), you just need pick it out from the report!
Did you really read the report OR you read and still can't understand the data and statistics in there??? :scared-2:
Looking forward to your corrections and your "analysis for proof of concept of affordabilty" for the HDB upgraders (so that we now have meaningful discussions instead of empty and baseless talk from you)..........
10377
10378
10379
The authorities only publish the exact 50th percentile figures but do not indicate precisely the 60th and 80th percentile figures. They do indicate the percentage changes over the previous year though for each percentile. Anyone who has the detailed figures please chip in before I could proceed with the more detailed calculations. I believe the data is quite accurate as the average household income for 5-room flats is $11,606 in 2014, and we are looking at the 60th to 80th percentile.
My experience is based on seeing people do it and sensing the background statistics. The academic exercise could show how they did it, but it's mainly to demonstrate to Teddy the sustainability of the figures.
To be continued...
Alamak! People give you so much data you also don't know how to use??? :simmering:
There is no need for us to spoon feed you right??? :hurt:
Ok, ok, The Table 18 of the report you mentioned, as obtained from the website https://www.singstat.gov.sg, is as attached here.
You will be able to calculate roughly how much those in the 60th to 80th percentile highest household income are really earning (and they are definitely earning much less than the $12-$22K income you told us!!!!!!!)............
Now that I have given you solid household income data from singstat.gov.sg which you can just pluck and use, you should be able relate to TDSR and hence the maximum property price they are allowed to buy by MAS/Singapore Government???
10377
10378
10379
The authorities only publish the exact 50th percentile figures but do not indicate precisely the 60th and 80th percentile figures. They do indicate the percentage changes over the previous year though for each percentile. Anyone who has the detailed figures please chip in before I could proceed with the more detailed calculations. I believe the data is quite accurate as the average household income for 5-room flats is $11,606 in 2014, and we are looking at the 60th to 80th percentile.
My experience is based on seeing people do it and sensing the background statistics. The academic exercise could show how they did it, but it's mainly to demonstrate to Teddy the sustainability of the figures.
To be continued...
hmmm whats the purpose of this argument?
Funny lah you bro... People give you data include CPF, you give data exclude CPF and say not accurate. I give you HDB data (for upgraders), you throw back national data. National data is easily obscured by people living in all kinds of housing including landed properties who do not need to work for life, retirees etc, pulling down the affordability outlook.
It's not that easy to calculate with this kind of percentages, I am sure you will agree.
Anyway, can also carry on with this analysis no problem. Let me make the best sense of the areas you can understand and progress from there.
To be continued.
Alamak! People give you so much data you also don't know how to use??? :simmering:
There is no need for us to spoon feed you right??? :hurt:
Ok, ok, The Table 18 of the report you mentioned, as obtained from the website https://www.singstat.gov.sg, is as attached here.
You will be able to calculate roughly how much those in the 60th to 80th percentile highest household income are really earning (and they are definitely earning much less than the $12-$22K income you told us!!!!!!!)............
Now that I have given you solid household income data from singstat.gov.sg which you can just pluck and use, you should be able relate to TDSR and hence the maximum property price they are allowed to buy by MAS/Singapore Government???
Hi, no particular purpose. Just playing chess with my best friend here since nobody can buy, nobody can sell. Purely academic exercise.
Teddybear's aim is to prove that HDB upgraders cannot afford OCR property of 1.44m and therefore OCR prices will crash.
My aim is to show that HDB upgraders can comfortably afford properties from 800K to 1.2m and therefore OCR prices are highly sustainable.
We will be talking disjointed most of the time, so you would have to decide whose logic to pick or ignore us altogether.
hmmm whats the purpose of this argument?
Given that we have full details of National income data but not HDB data, it would seem better to use National data.
If you use HDB data, you should also take into consideration those living in 4-room, 3-room, 2-room HDB flats and also those living in rental flats etc because they could also be HDB upgraders isn't it?
Anyway, the National data would also include many people who are living in private properties but earn that lower income of 60-80th percentile, thus falsely increasing the number of would-be "HDB upgraders" that you are looking at (which is more beneficial to you in your argument that there are lots of "HDB upgraders" who can easily upgrade to OCR private condos)............
At income of >$6k pm, include or exclude employers' CPF make not much difference because you can add that in (20% of $6k which is max cap for employers' CPF contribution). But then, a big chunk of these money cannot be used for paying for buying properties (because stuck in CPF Special Account and Medisave Account), so really if you include Employers' CPF money into income you would still need to minus them out, so make sense not to include isn't it?
And we have not even talked about Household expenses yet.......
When you look into that, you would find that many so-called "HDB upgraders" even if they passed TDSR and can upgrade to a OCR private condo of >$1M, they would have no money to retire and sooner or later will have to downgrade again or cash out of their OCR private property in order to have money to retire........... (This means they "CANNOT AFFORD" that OCR private property!).
A property should be considered "Affordable" only if the family is able to pay up for the property within his working life and still have enough savings to retire (in that property without selling it) isn't it? :wink-new:
Funny lah you bro... People give you data include CPF, you give data exclude CPF and say not accurate. I give you HDB data (for upgraders), you throw back national data. National data is easily obscured by people living in all kinds of housing including landed properties who do not need to work for life, retirees etc, pulling down the affordability outlook.
It's not that easy to calculate with this kind of percentages, I am sure you will agree.
Anyway, can also carry on with this analysis no problem. Let me make the best sense of the areas you can understand and progress from there.
To be continued.
Your eloquence and logic surprises me when you are calm. Give me some time to address them.
1. Can. Let you set the game conditions. But we must add disclaimers.
2. Rental flat upgraders! Steady. How did you think of that?
3. I am glad you finally acknowledged that private property owners may not be high income earners.
4. Noted.
5. Noted. Will have to show the sustainability without costing an arm and leg.
1. Given that we have full details of National income data but not HDB data, it would seem better to use National data.
2. If you use HDB data, you should also take into consideration those living in 4-room, 3-room, 2-room HDB flats and also those living in rental flats etc because they could also be HDB upgraders isn't it?
3. Anyway, the National data would also include many people who are living in private properties but earn that lower income of 60-80th percentile, thus falsely increasing the number of would-be "HDB upgraders" that you are looking at (which is more beneficial to you in your argument that there are lots of "HDB upgraders" who can easily upgrade to OCR private condos)............
4. And we have not even talked about Household expenses yet.......
When you look into that, you would find that many so-called "HDB upgraders" even if they passed TDSR and can upgrade to a OCR private condo of >$1M, they would have no money to retire and sooner or later will have to downgrade again or cash out of their OCR private property in order to have money to retire........... (This means they "CANNOT AFFORD" that OCR private property!).
5. A property should be considered "Affordable" only if the family is able to pay up for the property within his working life and still have enough savings to retire (in that property without selling it) isn't it? :wink-new:
Your eloquence and logic surprises me when you are calm. Give me some time to address them.
1. Can. Let you set the game conditions. But we must add disclaimers.
2. Rental flat upgraders! Steady. How did you think of that?
3. I am glad you finally acknowledged that private property owners may not be high income earners.
4. Noted.
5. Noted. Will have to show the sustainability without costing an arm and leg.
Let me help you out here since teddybear is now calm and cool. Below table shows the household income required to meet the TDSR 60% for the range of selling price of ppty and the range of age. Of course, we have to assume the upgraders have saved enough CPF and cash to make the 20% downpayment and stamp duties. It is quite clear that a household income, say $12k (ceiling for BTO buyer) can upgrade to private ppty when they are less than 45 years old.
TDSR 60%
Interest 3.50%
Loan Tenor Up to 65 years old
Loan 80%
Assumed no other recurring monthly installment
Sensitivity Table for Household Income to satisfy TDSR 60%
Price
$800,000 $1,000,000 $1,200,000 $1,400,000 $1,600,000 $1,800,000 $2,000,000
Age 30 $4,408 $5,511 $6,613 $7,715 $8,817 $9,919 $11,021
32 $4,546 $5,682 $6,819 $7,955 $9,091 $10,228 $11,364
34 $4,703 $5,878 $7,054 $8,230 $9,405 $10,581 $11,757
36 $4,884 $6,104 $7,325 $8,546 $9,767 $10,988 $12,209
38 $5,094 $6,367 $7,640 $8,914 $10,187 $11,461 $12,734
40 $5,340 $6,675 $8,010 $9,345 $10,680 $12,015 $13,350
42 $5,632 $7,040 $8,448 $9,856 $11,264 $12,672 $14,080
44 $5,983 $7,479 $8,975 $10,470 $11,966 $13,462 $14,958
46 $6,412 $8,015 $9,617 $11,220 $12,823 $14,426 $16,029
48 $6,945 $8,681 $10,418 $12,154 $13,890 $15,626 $17,363
50 $7,625 $9,532 $11,438 $13,344 $15,251 $17,157 $19,064
Thanks buddy. I like you. Super steady.
Upgraders will be able to directly use the table to see what they could afford based on their age and income.
Already can predict Teddybear's objections - household expenses lah for example. Thanks for lightening my workload though for follow up. This is a great reference table.
Let me help you out here since teddybear is now calm and cool. Below table shows the household income required to meet the TDSR 60% for the range of selling price of ppty and the range of age. Of course, we have to assume the upgraders have saved enough CPF and cash to make the 20% downpayment and stamp duties. It is quite clear that a household income, say $12k (ceiling for BTO buyer) can upgrade to private ppty when they are less than 45 years old.
TDSR 60%
Interest 3.50%
Loan Tenor Up to 65 years old
Loan 80%
Assumed no other recurring monthly installment
Sensitivity Table for Household Income to satisfy TDSR 60%
Price
$800,000 $1,000,000 $1,200,000 $1,400,000 $1,600,000 $1,800,000 $2,000,000
Age 30 $4,408 $5,511 $6,613 $7,715 $8,817 $9,919 $11,021
32 $4,546 $5,682 $6,819 $7,955 $9,091 $10,228 $11,364
34 $4,703 $5,878 $7,054 $8,230 $9,405 $10,581 $11,757
36 $4,884 $6,104 $7,325 $8,546 $9,767 $10,988 $12,209
38 $5,094 $6,367 $7,640 $8,914 $10,187 $11,461 $12,734
40 $5,340 $6,675 $8,010 $9,345 $10,680 $12,015 $13,350
42 $5,632 $7,040 $8,448 $9,856 $11,264 $12,672 $14,080
44 $5,983 $7,479 $8,975 $10,470 $11,966 $13,462 $14,958
46 $6,412 $8,015 $9,617 $11,220 $12,823 $14,426 $16,029
48 $6,945 $8,681 $10,418 $12,154 $13,890 $15,626 $17,363
50 $7,625 $9,532 $11,438 $13,344 $15,251 $17,157 $19,064
Sorry to bug you but is it so difficult to have a rough calculation of the property price allowed under TDSR for a family with say household income of say $12,000 per month? :sorrow:
I think I could give a rough figure within 10 minutes...... :playful:
Thanks buddy. I like you. Super steady.
Upgraders will be able to directly use the table to see what they could afford based on their age and income.
Already can predict Teddybear's objections - household expenses lah for example. Thanks for lightening my workload though for follow up. This is a great reference table.
Buddy Ilikeu table already shows it clearly. Even sorted by age. And different quantum some more.
What is more difficult is to pinpoint the specific amounts available for upgraders.
But individually people can already make their own conclusions based on that table.
Sorry lah I salaried employee so need to work to protect my income. Very chui after work leh.
Analysis will take time for me. Anyone can chip in actually. Yourself included.
Sorry to bug you but is it so difficult to have a rough calculation of the property price allowed under TDSR for a family with say household income of say $12,000 per month? :sorrow:
I think I could give a rough figure within 10 minutes...... :playful:
Now, what is the maximum property price that OCR folks can afford under the TDSR criteria and calculation (according to Singapore Government/MAS)???
As I said, I can give you a rough figure within 10 minutes, so here it goes............
Let's start with FIXED median gross household income pm = $8k (Note that this is fixed salary income, not variable otherwise there will be 30% hair-cut!)
The family probably has about $1k other debt instalments (eg credit card).
So TDSR at 60% = $4800 pm.
Estimated max loan amount = $655,217.
Assuming a loan tenure of 20 years, Monthly mortgage instalment required = $3377.
Assuming the family is buying their 1st property and can loan 80%, then max property price they can afford = $819k.
Tada!! Singapore Government /MAS already told us what you is the max property price you can afford when implementing TDSR!!
And remember, this $819k is the MAXIMUM property price, and if the OCR folk commit to that, he probably has no money to retire! A simple calculation will tell us so:
Gross monthly household income pm = $8000.
Take-home income pm after contributing to employee CPF = $6400.
Assume their CPF used to pay instalment = $1600,
and cash used to pay instalment = $3377 - 1600 = $1777,
then left money in pocket = $6400 - $1777 = $4623.
Pay other instalment (credit card etc) $1000, left money in pocket pm = $3623.
Other Household expenses pm probably about = $3500,
so money saved pm only about = $123 (vs expenses per month = $4500 !)
Wow! Like that forever must work until die also has not enough savings to retire!
Ultimately, the person has to cash out of the property to fund retirement and downgrade to studio or resort to renting (hope their money for rental can last until they passed away)..............
Buddy Ilikeu table already shows it clearly. Even sorted by age. And different quantum some more.
What is more difficult is to pinpoint the specific amounts available for upgraders.
But individually people can already make their own conclusions based on that table.
Sorry lah I salaried employee so need to work to protect my income. Very chui after work leh.
Analysis will take time for me. Anyone can chip in actually. Yourself included.
Sorry to bug you but is it so difficult to have a rough calculation of the property price allowed under TDSR for a family with say household income of say $12,000 per month? :sorrow:
I think I could give a rough figure within 10 minutes...... :playful:
Sorry, some correction and clarification here:
TDSR at 60% = $4,800 pm.
Other debt instalment etc per month (eg credit card) = $1,000 pm.
So, left eligible cash to service loan = $3,800 pm.
Assuming a loan tenure of 20 years, and MAS mandated interest rate of 3.5% to calculate max loan eligble, so Estimated max loan amount = $655,217.
What is the possible savings if servicing loan at $3,800 pm?:
Gross monthly household income pm = $8000.
Take-home income pm after contributing to employee CPF = $6400.
Assume their CPF used to pay instalment = $1600,
and cash used to pay instalment = $3800 - 1600 = $2200,
then left money in pocket = $6400 - $2200 = $4200.
Pay other instalment (credit card etc) $1000, left money in pocket pm = $3200.
Other Household expenses pm probably about = $3500,
so money saved pm only about = -$300 (vs expenses per month = $4500 !)
Now, tell us, how can the couple in the family retire at 65 years old?????? :banghead:
Now, what is the maximum property price that OCR folks can afford under the TDSR criteria and calculation (according to Singapore Government/MAS)???
As I said, I can give you a rough figure within 10 minutes, so here it goes............
Let's start with FIXED median gross household income pm = $8k (Note that this is fixed salary income, not variable otherwise there will be 30% hair-cut!)
The family probably has about $1k other debt instalments (eg credit card).
So TDSR at 60% = $4800 pm.
Estimated max loan amount = $655,217.
Assuming a loan tenure of 20 years, Monthly mortgage instalment required = $3377.
Assuming the family is buying their 1st property and can loan 80%, then max property price they can afford = $819k.
Tada!! Singapore Government /MAS already told us what you is the max property price you can afford when implementing TDSR!!
And remember, this $819k is the MAXIMUM property price, and if the OCR folk commit to that, he probably has no money to retire! A simple calculation will tell us so:
Gross monthly household income pm = $8000.
Take-home income pm after contributing to employee CPF = $6400.
Assume their CPF used to pay instalment = $1600,
and cash used to pay instalment = $3377 - 1600 = $1777,
then left money in pocket = $6400 - $1777 = $4623.
Pay other instalment (credit card etc) $1000, left money in pocket pm = $3623.
Other Household expenses pm probably about = $3500,
so money saved pm only about = $123 (vs expenses per month = $4500 !)
Wow! Like that forever must work until die also has not enough savings to retire!
Ultimately, the person has to cash out of the property to fund retirement and downgrade to studio or resort to renting (hope their money for rental can last until they passed away)..............
Pinpoint specific household income amounts available to HDB upgraders is also not difficult because of the law of large numbers, we still can get good estimates!
You just need to look at Table 17 of the 2014 Household Income report:
Income 2014 2014 (cumulative %)
Below 1,000 2.4 12.8
1,000 - 1,999 6.7 19.5
2,000 - 2,999 6.7 26.2
3,000 - 3,999 7.0 33.2
4,000 - 4,999 6.8 40
5,000 - 5,999 6.7 46.7
6,000 - 6,999 6.1 52.8
7,000 - 7,999 5.7 58.5
8,000 - 8,999 5.2 63.7
9,000 - 9,999 4.7 68.4
10,000 - 10,999 4.0 72.4
11,000 - 11,999 3.3 75.7
12,000 - 12,999 3.1 78.8
13,000 - 13,999 2.5 81.3
14,000 - 14,999 2.3 83.6
From above, you can see that the 63.7 percentile household income is $8000 pm.
You can see that the 78.8 percentile household income is is $12,000 pm.
These are mostly the potential HDB upgraders, whose gross household income is $8,000 to $12,000 pm!
As HDB upgraders, they are actually only eligible to obtain loan at 50% of the property price according to TDSR (if they buy a 2nd property without selling their HDB flat)!
See, it is obvious that TDSR killed the HDB upgraders' dream of easily upgrading to private properties!
Never mind, we can assume they are willing to sell their HDB flats within 6 months etc and get 80% loan, so,
at $8000 pm, max loan eligible = $655,217 or max property price = $$819k.
at $12,000 pm, max loan eligible = $1069k or max property price = $1336k.
Now, let's look at the current price of a 3 bedroom OCR private condo about 1200 sqft. Now OCR private condo price is easily $1200 psf, or $1.44M total.
So, how many HDB upgraders are able to pass TDSR to buy a $1.44M OCR private condo?
Answer: Not many.
How many HDB upgraders are able to pass TDSR to buy a $1.44M OCR private condo and still able to save enough to retire at 65 years old at that kind of household income?
Answer: Even much fewer.
Conclusion: OCR private properties at $1200 psf are SERIOUSLY OVER-PRICED for HDB upgraders!
Even if they can pass TDSR to buy, they will have no ability to retire at 65 years old and still can afford to live in that private property!
And how many of these PMETs (who can earn household income of $8000-$12000 pm) today can work until they retire at 65 years old?
As far as I know, not many. Most will probably get retrenched at least once when they hit over 50 years old.
Some may find get structurally jobless while others will get almost 50% pay cut to secure another job (and hence their pay drop much below the initial private property affordability calculation)!
Buddy Ilikeu table already shows it clearly. Even sorted by age. And different quantum some more.
What is more difficult is to pinpoint the specific amounts available for upgraders.
But individually people can already make their own conclusions based on that table.
Sorry lah I salaried employee so need to work to protect my income. Very chui after work leh.
Analysis will take time for me. Anyone can chip in actually. Yourself included.
Thank you Sir Teddy for dwelling deep in it. I had wanted to give you a good night sleep so did not reply.
Now let me add on to provide more clarity on your figures.
1. Now, you had put 20 years loan as tenure. Is there a good reason, such as the upgraders were about 45 years old such that their loans can only be until 65 years old? Here I will use your conservative 8K per month figure. Assuming it is composed of 2 equal salaries that began at 2K 20 years ago (1995), annual increment of 3.5%. This is actually population median figure instead of 60+ percentile, as our current median (individual) is already $3,9XX. But we will use your figures. and pretend they are at the 60th percentile (which they are not).
If the upgraders were 45 years old, they could have had 1 bite or 2 bites of the cherry.
If they had 1 bite only, their HDB loan is likely to be redeemed or close to being redeemed. The HDB should have been bought in 1995 to 2000 (people tended to get married before 30s then).
If they have had 2 bites, their second property should also be able to be fully redeemed with the gains from the first.
Assuming an average HDB (outskirts) bought before 2005 (at 200K), the equity gained is minimum 200K, with current selling price at 400K.
Now we dwell into their equity gained from their HDB and CPF plus cash savings accumulated over the years. This amount, depending on whether they spent most of the money earned or saved and reinvested most of it, will vary largely.
Assuming they only had 1 HDB bought in 1995 and taken 20 years loan, their CPF is enough to cover the loan throughout. In fact, they had a surplus of something like 100K OA CPF accumulated in 2015 after fully paying up their HDB loan.
Ignoring that 100K OA CPF (and also ignoring the SA funds accumulated), the HDB can now be sold for 400K to finance the upgrade.
2. I have mentioned that HDB upgraders are mostly only keen in outskirts. The last I searched below,
http://propertycarrots.com/search/
Latest prices of
Skypark Residence (122sqm) is 1.15M (875PSF EC)
Sol Acres (91sqm) is 733K (748PSF EC)
The Minton (109sqm) is 1.05M (895PSF Condo)
Just randomly grabbed some decent sized units.
Nobody said must be 1200PSF and must be large. The upgraders can decide how much space they need.
Quoting your figures,
"at $8000 pm, max loan eligible = $655,217 or max property price = $$819k.
at $12,000 pm, max loan eligible = $1069k or max property price = $1336k."
Plus 400K from CPF resale and 100+K CPF on standby, plus cash savings. They can put easily put 500K+++ equity into their next purchase and borrow 500K (for the 8K upgraders).
Lots of possibilities no?
How much is needed for retirement (say at age 65) lumpsum or monthly, in your opinion? Then we would know whether the individual can retire. Retirement amount is very subjective.
Now teddy has added in $1000 monthly payment for credit card... so I will include that in bearing in mind the TDSR takes into account monthly recurring installments payable to financial institutions, not add-hoc spendings.
So, I have now add in another table for reference, with assumption that upgraders have sufficient cash + CPF for 20% downpayment + stamp duties; plus $1,000 recurring monthly installment. It is still clear they (say $12k or less) can upgrade to OCR ppty costing $800k to say $1.6m depending on their age. In addition, there is no income ceiling for OCR buyers, so many more earning $12k or more or foreigners can buy, which will further support the pricing.
If everyone earning $8k or more can upgrade to private ppty, then the latest statistics of public housing dwellers of 80.1% will drop further. That explains why only 20% or so can stay in private housing.
TDSR 60%
Interest 3.50%
Loan Tenor Up to 65 years old
Loan 80%
Assume Buyers have sufficient cash + CPF for 20% downpayment + stamp duties; plus $1,000 recurring monthly installment
Price
$7,177.21 $800,000 $1,000,000 $1,200,000 $1,400,000 $1,600,000 $1,800,000 $2,000,000
Age 30 $6,075 $7,177 $8,279 $9,381 $10,484 $11,586 $12,688
32 $6,212 $7,349 $8,485 $9,622 $10,758 $11,894 $13,031
34 $6,369 $7,545 $8,721 $9,896 $11,072 $12,248 $13,423
36 $6,550 $7,771 $8,992 $10,213 $11,434 $12,655 $13,875
38 $6,760 $8,034 $9,307 $10,581 $11,854 $13,127 $14,401
40 $7,007 $8,342 $9,677 $11,012 $12,347 $13,682 $15,017
42 $7,299 $8,707 $10,115 $11,523 $12,931 $14,339 $15,747
44 $7,650 $9,146 $10,641 $12,137 $13,633 $15,129 $16,624
46 $8,078 $9,681 $11,284 $12,887 $14,490 $16,093 $17,696
48 $8,612 $10,348 $12,084 $13,821 $15,557 $17,293 $19,029
50 $9,292 $11,198 $13,105 $15,011 $16,918 $18,824 $20,730
Thank you Sir Teddy for dwelling deep in it. I had wanted to give you a good night sleep so did not reply.
Now let me add on to provide more clarity on your figures.
1. Now, you had put 20 years loan as tenure. Is there a good reason, such as the upgraders were about 45 years old such that their loans can only be until 65 years old? Here I will use your conservative 8K per month figure. Assuming it is composed of 2 equal salaries that began at 2K 20 years ago (1995), annual increment of 3.5%. This is actually population median figure instead of 60+ percentile, as our current median (individual) is already $3,9XX. But we will use your figures. and pretend they are at the 60th percentile (which they are not).
If the upgraders were 45 years old, they could have had 1 bite or 2 bites of the cherry.
If they had 1 bite only, their HDB loan is likely to be redeemed or close to being redeemed. The HDB should have been bought in 1995 to 2000 (people tended to get married before 30s then).
If they have had 2 bites, their second property should also be able to be fully redeemed with the gains from the first.
Assuming an average HDB (outskirts) bought before 2005 (at 200K), the equity gained is minimum 200K, with current selling price at 400K.
Now we dwell into their equity gained from their HDB and CPF plus cash savings accumulated over the years. This amount, depending on whether they spent most of the money earned or saved and reinvested most of it, will vary largely.
Assuming they only had 1 HDB bought in 1995 and taken 20 years loan, their CPF is enough to cover the loan throughout. In fact, they had a surplus of something like 100K OA CPF accumulated in 2015 after fully paying up their HDB loan.
Ignoring that 100K OA CPF (and also ignoring the SA funds accumulated), the HDB can now be sold for 400K to finance the upgrade.
2. I have mentioned that HDB upgraders are mostly only keen in outskirts. The last I searched below,
http://propertycarrots.com/search/
Latest prices of
Skypark Residence (122sqm) is 1.15M (875PSF EC)
Sol Acres (91sqm) is 733K (748PSF EC)
The Minton (109sqm) is 1.05M (895PSF Condo)
Just randomly grabbed some decent sized units.
Nobody said must be 1200PSF and must be large. The upgraders can decide how much space they need.
Quoting your figures,
"at $8000 pm, max loan eligible = $655,217 or max property price = $$819k.
at $12,000 pm, max loan eligible = $1069k or max property price = $1336k."
Plus 400K from CPF resale and 100+K CPF on standby, plus cash savings. They can put easily put 500K+++ equity into their next purchase and borrow 500K (for the 8K upgraders).
Lots of possibilities no?
Quoting your figures,
"at $8000 pm, max loan eligible = $655,217 or max property price = $$819k.
at $12,000 pm, max loan eligible = $1069k or max property price = $1336k."
Plus 400K from CPF resale and 100+K CPF on standby, plus cash savings. They can put easily put 500K+++ equity into their next purchase and borrow 500K (for the 8K upgraders).
Correction: I meant "HDB resale"
How much is needed for retirement (say at age 65) lumpsum or monthly, in your opinion? Then we would know whether the individual can retire. Retirement amount is very subjective.
Because it is subjective, the amount can vary widely. The savings habit of the upgraders is also crucial in this equation.
As highlighted in the D'Leedon thread, selling HDB and directly upgrading to EC or PC is not the only option, even though it is a viable one.
At this income (8K) and age level (45), it is a bit risky to go for higher loans (say more than 500K), because CPF OA contribution drops significantly at age 55. The highest property value this profile should aspire for is 400K (HDB sale) + 100K (CPF) + 500K (loan) = $1M. A safe level is to look for resales under 900K or ECs at 700K or so.
But remember that we are constrained by Teddy's conditions in this computations. Loans can go up to 30 or 35 years, and the upgraders we are referring to could also be higher income, much more cash and CPF rich, or much younger.
When we talk about HDB upgraders, they are mostly at between 40-50 years old, and they most likely have a family with at least 1 or more kids, with a maid, and some even living with parents!
Given a family like that, they need at least a 3 bedroom house of at least 1200 sqft! Anything below that I can imagine..... How to squeeze into a house <1200 sqft like that??? :doh:
Also, from what I can see, a 3 bedroom condo really needs at least 1200 sqft in order not to give people claustrophobia!
"Loans can go up to 30 or 35 years"?
A person at 45 years old, can he still get 30 years loan and still borrow 80% of the property price??? Don't think so! :drunk:
If you look at my calculations, you already know that few HDB upgraders can genuinely "AFFORD" to upgrade and still have money to retire at 65 years old (and they are also counting too far and they are assuming that they can still earn that kind of money past 50 years old to 65 years old!). Fact is, most will likely face retrenchment at least once past 50 years old and have income cut by half or more.........
Because it is subjective, the amount can vary widely. The savings habit of the upgraders is also crucial in this equation.
As highlighted in the D'Leedon thread, selling HDB and directly upgrading to EC or PC is not the only option, even though it is a viable one.
At this income (8K) and age level (45), it is a bit risky to go for higher loans (say more than 500K), because CPF OA contribution drops significantly at age 55. The highest property value this profile should aspire for is 400K (HDB sale) + 100K (CPF) + 500K (loan) = $1M. A safe level is to look for resales under 900K or ECs at 700K or so.
But remember that we are constrained by Teddy's conditions in this computations. Loans can go up to 30 or 35 years, and the upgraders we are referring to could also be higher income, much more cash and CPF rich, or much younger.
To be absolutely frank with you, ALL the upgraders I know made the move between 35 to 40. 95% are regular salaried employees. I can give you another set of calculations if you are keen.
The above 40s are second private or private to private movements.
When we talk about HDB upgraders, they are mostly at between 40-50 years old, and they most likely have a family with at least 1 or more kids, with a maid, and some even living with parents!
Given a family like that, they need at least a 3 bedroom house of at least 1200 sqft! Anything below that I can imagine..... How to squeeze into a house <1200 sqft like that??? :doh:
Also, from what I can see, a 3 bedroom condo really needs at least 1200 sqft in order not to give people claustrophobia!
"Loans can go up to 30 or 35 years"?
A person at 45 years old, can he still get 30 years loan and still borrow 80% of the property price??? Don't think so! :drunk:
If you look at my calculations, you already know that few HDB upgraders can genuinely "AFFORD" to upgrade and still have money to retire at 65 years old (and they are also counting too far and they are assuming that they can still earn that kind of money past 50 years old to 65 years old!). Fact is, most will likely face retrenchment at least once past 50 years old and have income cut by half or more.........
Response to your query:
1. 20 years loan is because of 45 years old assumption. TDSR mandates that you can borrow 80% of your first property provided the loan is up to max of 65 years old. Beyond that, you can only borrow 60% (or 50%?) of property price.
45 years old is also quite a valid assumption, because statistics show that most people have household income of $8k to $12k per month at 40 to 50 years old.
Remember, the $8k gross household income is from the 2014 household income report provided by the government!
This cannot be wrong, only that it does not include employers' CPF contribution, which makes sense since TDSR computation will not include employers' CPF contribution as income anyway!
Regarding their profits from their HDB flats etc, we can just assume those will be used for paying downpayments (which I did not include). Anyway, not every HDB graders would have profited from their first HDB flats (and they have no 2nd cherry without paying the 25% levy!).
2. As I mentioned, 1200 sqft 3 bedroom condo is necessary for HDB upgraders' whole family. For some, it may even be too small!
3. My calculation already showed that most HDB upgraders won't have enough money to retire at 65 years old if they buy a OCR private condo at >$1M (and don't ask them to buy mickey mouse unit unless they have magic to shrink their family to mickey mouse size!)..............
Thank you Sir Teddy for dwelling deep in it. I had wanted to give you a good night sleep so did not reply.
Now let me add on to provide more clarity on your figures.
1. Now, you had put 20 years loan as tenure. Is there a good reason, such as the upgraders were about 45 years old such that their loans can only be until 65 years old? Here I will use your conservative 8K per month figure. Assuming it is composed of 2 equal salaries that began at 2K 20 years ago (1995), annual increment of 3.5%. This is actually population median figure instead of 60+ percentile, as our current median (individual) is already $3,9XX. But we will use your figures. and pretend they are at the 60th percentile (which they are not).
If the upgraders were 45 years old, they could have had 1 bite or 2 bites of the cherry.
If they had 1 bite only, their HDB loan is likely to be redeemed or close to being redeemed. The HDB should have been bought in 1995 to 2000 (people tended to get married before 30s then).
If they have had 2 bites, their second property should also be able to be fully redeemed with the gains from the first.
Assuming an average HDB (outskirts) bought before 2005 (at 200K), the equity gained is minimum 200K, with current selling price at 400K.
Now we dwell into their equity gained from their HDB and CPF plus cash savings accumulated over the years. This amount, depending on whether they spent most of the money earned or saved and reinvested most of it, will vary largely.
Assuming they only had 1 HDB bought in 1995 and taken 20 years loan, their CPF is enough to cover the loan throughout. In fact, they had a surplus of something like 100K OA CPF accumulated in 2015 after fully paying up their HDB loan.
Ignoring that 100K OA CPF (and also ignoring the SA funds accumulated), the HDB can now be sold for 400K to finance the upgrade.
2. I have mentioned that HDB upgraders are mostly only keen in outskirts. The last I searched below,
http://propertycarrots.com/search/
Latest prices of
Skypark Residence (122sqm) is 1.15M (875PSF EC)
Sol Acres (91sqm) is 733K (748PSF EC)
The Minton (109sqm) is 1.05M (895PSF Condo)
Just randomly grabbed some decent sized units.
Nobody said must be 1200PSF and must be large. The upgraders can decide how much space they need.
Quoting your figures,
"at $8000 pm, max loan eligible = $655,217 or max property price = $$819k.
at $12,000 pm, max loan eligible = $1069k or max property price = $1336k."
Plus 400K from CPF resale and 100+K CPF on standby, plus cash savings. They can put easily put 500K+++ equity into their next purchase and borrow 500K (for the 8K upgraders).
Lots of possibilities no?
How much depends on what is the necessities and the style of livings...........
We can use Government's household expenditures survey as a guide (see the link)......... (https://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/hes1213.pdf)
The 2013 household expenditure statistics tell us that those household earning $6-8k pm spend average of $3957 pm.
While the household earning $10-12k PM spend average of $5488 pm.
Assuming that these people want to retain their life-style when they retire, they will still need to spend close to these figures (minus some kids' expenses but have to add higher medical expenses, which we assume to balance)...........
How much is needed for retirement (say at age 65) lumpsum or monthly, in your opinion? Then we would know whether the individual can retire. Retirement amount is very subjective.
Let's assume that a couple is 45 years old now and want to retire at 65 years old (hopefully before getting retrenched and jobless and can't find similar paying jobs), and they want to maintain today's life style at $3957 pm.
If you assume average of 3% inflation per year (a reasonable assumption) over next 20 years, then they will need to spend $7205 pm when they are 65 years old.
Say they need $7205 pm every year for 20 years, then they will need to have saved about $1.73M in order to retire at 65 years old and still maintain their life style at today's value of $3957 pm.
Mind you, $3957 pm is for a couple (i.e. 2 person), or about $2000 pm per person, which is already very thrifty indeed!!!!!!!!! :doh:
Now, you may say their $1.73M can grow right?
Yes, but we also have not included inflation!
Because most people can't invest their money well, so we can just assume that the 3% inflation every year thereby is compensated by their meagre returns of 3% p.a. (hopefully!).
How many HDB upgraders are able to accumulate $1.73M at 65 years old and still maintain their life-style when they retire and still live in their private property???? :onthego:
How much depends on what is the necessities and the style of livings...........
We can use Government's household expenditures survey as a guide (see the link)......... (https://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/hes1213.pdf)
The 2013 household expenditure statistics tell us that those household earning $6-8k pm spend average of $3957 pm.
While the household earning $10-12k PM spend average of $5488 pm.
Assuming that these people want to retain their life-style when they retire, they will still need to spend close to these figures (minus some kids' expenses but have to add higher medical expenses, which we assume to balance)...........
How much is needed for retirement (say at age 65) lumpsum or monthly, in your opinion? Then we would know whether the individual can retire. Retirement amount is very subjective.
Kelonguni bro, let me summarize for you teddybear's definition or game rules for upgraders
1. 40-50 years old, assume mean 45 years old, hence only 20 years loan tenor to borrow 80%
2. Family with at least 1 or more kids, with a maid, and some even living with parents
3. Upgrade to at least 1200sqft OCR = about $1.44m condo required
4. Household income $8000-12000 per month
5. Recurring monthly expense $1,000 per month (that will reduce TDSR)
6. Retirement amount (at age 65) requires $3957 to $5488 per month (less off kids expenses but add on higher medical cost = balance). Hence assume mean $4,722.50 per month. Let's say can live up to 85 years old, means $1.133m (=$4,722.50 x 12 x 20 years without considering future value) of retirement amount.
To me, that is just a subset of public housing dwellers who aim to upgrade...
All the numbers being quoted are "average" by teddybear (which I did not take the trouble to verify). From this alone, it is hence very clear that is why only 19.9% stays in privates only. If all those from "average" or "median" rankings can afford privates, then you will see close to 50% in privates.
Wow... $1.73m in cash (plus a private ppty fully paid) then can retire!
I don't know how old you are... I'm wondering if your parents require $4k per month after they retired?
Let's assume that a couple is 45 years old now and want to retire at 65 years old (hopefully before getting retrenched and jobless and can't find similar paying jobs), and they want to maintain today's life style at $3957 pm.
If you assume average of 3% inflation per year (a reasonable assumption) over next 20 years, then they will need to spend $7205 pm when they are 65 years old.
Say they need $7205 pm every year for 20 years, then they will need to have saved about $1.73M in order to retire at 65 years old and still maintain their life style at today's value of $3957 pm.
Mind you, $3957 pm is for a couple (i.e. 2 person), or about $2000 pm per person, which is already very thrifty indeed!!!!!!!!! :doh:
Now, you may say their $1.73M can grow right?
Yes, but we also have not included inflation!
Because most people can't invest their money well, so we can just assume that the 3% inflation every year thereby is compensated by their meagre returns of 3% p.a. (hopefully!).
How many HDB upgraders are able to accumulate $1.73M at 65 years old and still maintain their life-style when they retire and still live in their private property???? :onthego:
The statistics tell us that if the HDB upgraders are going to buy a $1M property and still want to maintain their life-style when at 65 years and after, they just CAN'T retire at 65 years old!
But they have an option: Sell their property and downgrade......
But that is provided that asset inflation persists.............
If not, sayo nara......... They can choose to work till they die if they still have the energy and the health to do so............ :doh:
Wow... $1.73m in cash (plus a private ppty fully paid) then can retire!
I don't know how old you are... I'm wondering if your parents require $4k per month after they retired?
I know of many people who throw all their money into buying private properties and living in there but trying to scrimp and save every single cent............... :doh:
To be absolutely frank with you, ALL the upgraders I know made the move between 35 to 40. 95% are regular salaried employees. I can give you another set of calculations if you are keen.
The above 40s are second private or private to private movements.
The statistics tell us that if the HDB upgraders are going to buy a $1M property and still want to maintain their life-style when at 65 years and after, they just CAN'T retire at 65 years old!
But they have an option: Sell their property and downgrade......
But that is provided that asset inflation persists.............
If not, sayo nara......... They can choose to work till they die if they still have the energy and the health to do so............ :doh:
Yes, that is why privates are only for the top 20% or so....
If the equilibrium is reversed to say 80% stays in privates and only bottom 20% stays in public, u can imagine how different the economy singapore needs to be in... and another set of social problems will set in...
So u need to find the fine line to balance...
I know of many people who throw all their money into buying private properties and living in there but trying to scrimp and save every single cent............... :doh:
I throw most of my money into properties. I reckon if u have 50% of the value of the property in cash....u should buy it. Let's say U have 250k saving, just buy 500k property. When u make gain, sell it and buy more expensive property with your 50% equity. Everybody starts at the bottom.
Yah I also know of someone who doesn't spend on anything. Regular salaried and went from HDB upgrader to double FH properties (large size) in 15 years. Total asset with loans 3.5m++. Too aggressive for me though.
I know of many people who throw all their money into buying private properties and living in there but trying to scrimp and save every single cent............... :doh:
Cannot lah. TDSR already killed that.......
Say you have $250k cash and you buy a $500k property, you must pay $250k as down payment for 2nd property and you end up having little money on hand! What happen if you become jobless? What happen if interest rate jumps and your instalment jumps??? :doh:
I throw most of my money into properties. I reckon if u have 50% of the value of the property in cash....u should buy it. Let's say U have 250k saving, just buy 500k property. When u make gain, sell it and buy more expensive property with your 50% equity. Everybody starts at the bottom.
What do you mean by total asset with loans 3.5m++?
You mean total asset 3.5m and what is the loan?
What is important is the Net Asset (not Total Asset) and DER.
E.g. Noble has large Total Asset but relatively small Net Asset (dangerous case)! You don't know when the bank will pull the plug! :violent-shooting:
Yah I also know of someone who doesn't spend on anything. Regular salaried and went from HDB upgrader to double FH properties (large size) in 15 years. Total asset with loans 3.5m++. Too aggressive for me though.
The two properties value add up to 3.5M. I am not their father or son so not sure how much they loan.
Dangerous of course but paid up at least 1.5M.
What do you mean by total asset with loans 3.5m++?
You mean total asset 3.5m and what is the loan?
What is important is the Net Asset (not Total Asset) and DER.
E.g. Noble has large Total Asset but relatively small Net Asset (dangerous case)! You don't know when the bank will pull the plug! :violent-shooting:
Cannot lah. TDSR already killed that.......
Say you have $250k cash and you buy a $500k property, you must pay $250k as down payment for 2nd property and you end up having little money on hand! What happen if you become jobless? What happen if interest rate jumps and your instalment jumps??? :doh:
Why u pay 50% as dp? U only pay 20-30% dp. The rest of the money you keep in the bank to ride the property cycle. Believe it or not my first property is only worth 50k. Be patience with your investment. When u think it won't get higher....it will get higher. Don't need to know the national statistic....all u need to know is your own statistic.
Because MAS mandated that you can only loan 50% mah (if you are buying 2nd property).......... :doh:
So you can imagine how difficult it is for HDB upgraders to upgrade and needing to sell their HDB flat within 6 months???
Why u pay 50% as dp? U only pay 20-30% dp. The rest of the money you keep in the bank to ride the property cycle. Believe it or not my first property is only worth 50k. Be patience with your investment. When u think it won't get higher....it will get higher. Don't need to know the national statistic....all u need to know is your own statistic.
Can have bridging loans, transfer of property (decoupling) etc.
Many tried and tested strategies actually. Nite.
Because MAS mandated that you can only loan 50% mah (if you are buying 2nd property).......... :doh:
So you can imagine how difficult it is for HDB upgraders to upgrade and needing to sell their HDB flat within 6 months???
So we can conclude that it is an ILLUSION that there are lots of HDB upgraders who can easily afford $1.44M condos and eagerly waiting to plough their money down to buy these OCR private properties are just NOT there and the OCR private properties are simply OVER-PRICED! :chargrined:
Yes, that is why privates are only for the top 20% or so....
If the equilibrium is reversed to say 80% stays in privates and only bottom 20% stays in public, u can imagine how different the economy singapore needs to be in... and another set of social problems will set in...
So u need to find the fine line to balance...
Tried and tested but still end up having to sell their OCR private property before they can get enough money to retire.........
So must wait and flip to the next greater fool (while hoping their their OCR private property price will continue to climb after they have gone on-board)............. :chargrined:
Can have bridging loans, transfer of property (decoupling) etc.
Many tried and tested strategies actually. Nite.
Tried and tested but still end up having to sell their OCR private property before they can get enough money to retire.........
So must wait and flip to the next greater fool (while hoping their their OCR private property price will continue to climb after they have gone on-board)............. :chargrined:
No need to sell anything at all. Just buy and hold. This is the main reason why they buy OCR instead of CCR actually.
How to hold when the moment you buy OCR 99-years leashold property the clock is ticking and the property is depreciating by 1% every year in the first 20 years and 1.5-2% in the subsequent years (as the land lease runs down)...............
No need to sell anything at all. Just buy and hold. This is the main reason why they buy OCR instead of CCR actually.
How to hold when the moment you buy OCR 99-years leashold property the clock is ticking and the property is depreciating by 1% every year in the first 20 years and 1.5-2% in the subsequent years (as the land lease runs down)...............
You know that is not true. Show me one unit in SG that behaves this way in prices?
Even if that were true, if one buys at 35 and holds for 30 years, one can live for at most another 30 years on top of that. You return to earth with 30 years lease left.
Your children has another set of chances to go for their own cherries and chances. You have given them more than enough but most importantly, given them an opportunity to grow their own pot of gold themselves.
Nowadays we are seeing 99YR CCR properties and OCR FH properties as well you know.
Actually your Maths got serious problem. 95 years lease even in a straight line depreciation to 0% cannot drop more than 1.05% per year.
May be you don't know, depreciation is lower in first 20 years, then depreciation accelerates after 20 years.
As far as I can see, most people will try to flip their 99-years leasehold properties to somebody else even before 20 years is up.............
After 20 years, they depreciate real fast (compared to FH properties of the same age).
Don't believe? Go look at those >30 years 99-years leasehold properties, then compare with those >30 years FH properties and you will know.......... :chargrined:
You know that is not true. Show me one unit in SG that behaves this way in prices?
Even if that were true, if one buys at 35 and holds for 30 years, one can live for at most another 30 years on top of that. You return to earth with 30 years lease left.
Your children has another set of chances to go for their own cherries and chances. You have given them more than enough but most importantly, given them an opportunity to grow their own pot of gold themselves.
Nowadays we are seeing 99YR CCR properties and OCR FH properties as well you know.
Actually your Maths got serious problem. 95 years lease even in a straight line depreciation to 0% cannot drop more than 1.05% per year.
Just name me 1 development.
I only know Park West with FH development nearby. West Bay and West Cove?
Most of the HUDC privatised flats too.
Which one?
May be you don't know, depreciation is lower in first 20 years, then depreciation accelerates after 20 years.
As far as I can see, most people will try to flip their 99-years leasehold properties to somebody else even before 20 years is up.............
After 20 years, they depreciate real fast (compared to FH properties of the same age).
Don't believe? Go look at those >30 years 99-years leasehold properties, then compare with those >30 years FH properties and you will know.......... :chargrined:
Don't think need me to tell you, you can google.
This issue has been discussed don't know how many times already.
Eg. terrace house with about 30 years lease left only costs $350,000 !!!
According to you,
"Even if that were true, if one buys at 35 and holds for 30 years, one can live for at most another 30 years on top of that. You return to earth with 30 years lease left."
since it doesn't matter to you, then you should be buying such property which means depreciation of $11,666 per year or $972 per month (for the whole landed property!), much cheaper than buying/renting any 99-years leasehold terrace house or condo! :chargrined:
On the other hand, you go buy a 99-years leasehold terrace house in OCR with say 2000 sqft land you will need to pay >$3M !!!!!!!!!!
The above is very clear example of what happens to 99-years leasehold properties when the land lease starts to run down.....................
Just name me 1 development.
I only know Park West with FH development nearby. West Bay and West Cove?
Most of the HUDC privatised flats too.
Which one?
Don't think need me to tell you, you can google.
This issue has been discussed don't know how many times already.
Eg. terrace house with about 30 years lease left only costs $350,000 !!!
According to you,
"Even if that were true, if one buys at 35 and holds for 30 years, one can live for at most another 30 years on top of that. You return to earth with 30 years lease left."
since it doesn't matter to you, then you should be buying such property which means depreciation of $11,666 per year or $972 per month (for the whole landed property!), much cheaper than buying/renting any 99-years leasehold terrace house or condo! :chargrined:
On the other hand, you go buy a 99-years leasehold terrace house in OCR with say 2000 sqft land you will need to pay >$3M !!!!!!!!!!
The above is very clear example of what happens to 99-years leasehold properties when the land lease starts to run down.....................
Which terrace house with 30 years left is being sold for 350K?
I google here and there just cannot find.
Maybe 20 years left 600K, or 30 years asking 1 million have.
Got good lobang share leh.
If you want lobang, you should look harder........
Lots of properties with lease running down selling at a "bargain"......
Anyway I can't update you on 99-years leasehold properties since I don't keep track and not interested.............
Which terrace house with 30 years left is being sold for 350K?
I google here and there just cannot find.
Maybe 20 years left 600K, or 30 years asking 1 million have.
Got good lobang share leh.
Since you are so interested in 99-years leasehold properties, suggest you look for those more than 40 years old, like the one below, left 40 years remaining lease or even less, so cheap, double-storey terrace the price of 3-room flat!
See the news below...........
CHEAPER THAN HDB FLATS
Last year, a [double-storey along this street was sold for $200,000. There are others available. What's the catch?
LANDED houses going cheaper than most HDB flats?
Is this possible in Singapore?
Yes, and it has been one of the island's best kept secrets.
This little cul de sac in Bedok is probably one of the cheapest private estates in Singapore with houses going for a song. Well, almost.
Just imagine - a 2,300 sq ft double-storey terrace house (the size of two HDB five-room flats) in Jalan Chempaka Kuning was sold for just $200,000 in May last year.
SHORT LEASES
That's about the price of a three-room HDB flat in today's market.
And where prices of terrace houses go, you're looking in the region of at least $800,000 for a similar-sized freehold unit in the area, said ERA Real Estate assistant vice-president Eugene Lim.
But in this estate along Bedok Road, there is a catch to the low price. The leases of the properties are short - with about 29 years left.
Aside from this cluster, there are other private estates in Singapore with short leases too.
A semi-detached house of about 2,900 sq ft in Jalan Siap behind Rail Mall was sold for $308,000 last August.
The remaining lease is about 40 years.
.............................
And financing the place is yet another worry.
Banks usually take the cue from a government rule barring the use of Central Provident Fund (CPF) savings for the purchase of homes with 30 years or less left on their leases.
Because of this ruling, buyers of such homes would find it difficult to get a loan topay for their property.
.......................................
Said Mr Lim: 'Well, these properties cater to people who want to live in landed houses but have no budget.
'The only thing is that for such houses, getting loans can be an issue. So, most likely, you've to use cash.'
Which terrace house with 30 years left is being sold for 350K?
I google here and there just cannot find.
Maybe 20 years left 600K, or 30 years asking 1 million have.
Got good lobang share leh.
That is your conclusion, not "we".
I have given you two tables to shows you who can afford it... Very clear a lot can qualify to upgrade to OCR.
If they want to own a new Mercedes before upgrading to private, then they cannot afford it.
So we can conclude that it is an ILLUSION that there are lots of HDB upgraders who can easily afford $1.44M condos and eagerly waiting to plough their money down to buy these OCR private properties are just NOT there and the OCR private properties are simply OVER-PRICED! :chargrined:
Thanks leh brudder, for showing me the news 10 years ago. The "last year" mentioned was 2005. The freehold landed cost about 800-900k then.
The same property is asking for 600k now. 3 times appreciation in lease drawn from 30 to 20?
Thanks for showing the power of leaseholds. Any more recent ones I can refer to?
Since you are so interested in 99-years leasehold properties, suggest you look for those more than 40 years old, like the one below, left 40 years remaining lease or even less, so cheap, double-storey terrace the price of 3-room flat!
See the news below...........
Asking but no buyer (and this is the lesson we learnt about what happen to 99-years leasehold properties when they are left with 60 years lease or less)............. :victorious:
Thanks leh brudder, for showing me the news 10 years ago. The "last year" mentioned was 2005. The freehold landed cost about 800-900k then.
The same property is asking for 600k now. 3 times appreciation in lease drawn from 30 to 20?
Thanks for showing the power of leaseholds. Any more recent ones I can refer to?
Your definition of "affordability" is can buy but no money to retire????
Is that REAL affordability???? :tongue-new:
No wonder Khaw Boon Wan insisted that Property to annual Income ratio should be 4x or less for people to be GENUINELY able to AFFORD their property (i.e. can buy and live in there and still have enough money to retire at 65 years old)!
That is your conclusion, not "we".
I have given you two tables to shows you who can afford it... Very clear a lot can qualify to upgrade to OCR.
If they want to own a new Mercedes before upgrading to private, then they cannot afford it.
Really got 600k de wor Brudder. Cheapest recent one also 468K. 2.x times appreciation. At least 4 transactions.
LANDED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT JALAN CHEMPAKA KUNING Semi-detached 16 OCR 70 yrs lease commencing from 1964 Resale 1 623,000 - 3,035 Land - 205 Sep-14
Asking but no buyer (and this is the lesson we learnt about what happen to 99-years leasehold properties when they are left with 60 years lease or less)............. :victorious:
Your definition of "affordability" is can buy but no money to retire????
Is that REAL affordability???? :tongue-new:
No wonder Khaw Boon Wan insisted that Property to annual Income ratio should be 4x or less for people to be GENUINELY able to AFFORD their property (i.e. can buy and live in there and still have enough money to retire at 65 years old)!
1
Your definition of "affordability" is can buy but no money to retire????
Is that REAL affordability???? :tongue-new:
No wonder Khaw Boon Wan insisted that Property to annual Income ratio should be 4x or less for people to be GENUINELY able to AFFORD their property (i.e. can buy and live in there and still have enough money to retire at 65 years old)!
U very steady, i hope u are in the government. U will give every household a OCR of $1.44m and a retirement amount of $1.73m or isolate singapore from the world and make it back to a third world economy to lower the living cost.. I sibey like you.
If this property is a FH landed instead of one with 20+ years of land-lease left, it should be worth >$3M (instead of $623k) at today's price???? How many times different they are? About 5x? :tongue-new:
This is more than enough to show the rapid depreciation in value of 99-years leasehold property as they gets nearer nearer to the end of their land lease....... :onthego:
Really got 600k de wor Brudder. Cheapest recent one also 468K. 2.x times appreciation. At least 4 transactions.
LANDED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT JALAN CHEMPAKA KUNING Semi-detached 16 OCR 70 yrs lease commencing from 1964 Resale 1 623,000 - 3,035 Land - 205 Sep-14
Why need to give every household a $1.44M OCR private property and retirement amount of $1.73M?
You forgot the lecture you all have been given?
1. If you have not enough money, you should be living in HDB flat which is considered "luxurious" by world standard right? (Never mind that if you "own" a HDB flat, the word "own" is misleading because actually when you buy a HDB flat, you are actually the "lessee" of the HDB flat and not "owner", the actual owner is the HDB board, and you are just "99-years tenants" really....).
But then the same can be said for 99-years leasehold private properties (i.e., you are just 99-years tenants of the land, the real owner of the land is the government)...
2. What meals you want, at restaurant, food court or hawker centre?
Why you all so greedy? If you do not have such big head you should not be wearing such big hat right?
Want $1.44M OCR private property, want $1.73M retirement fund?
You want to have private and exclusive living environment that comes with private car park, private facilities and you want it for cheap or even free?
You want $1.73M retirement fund to eat in air-con food courts everyday for every meal and go overseas for holiday every 6 months?
Nobody in the world owe you this living ok? :onthego:
U very steady, i hope u are in the government. U will give every household a OCR of $1.44m and a retirement amount of $1.73m or isolate singapore from the world and make it back to a third world economy to lower the living cost.. I sibey like you.
You can more about the 99-year time bomb many Singaporeans are sitting on (by clicking the link here)................ (http://mothership.sg/2014/04/the-99-year-time-bomb-some-singaporeans-are-sitting-on/) :onthego:
But then, if you know you must flip your 99-years leasehold property to the next greater fool before 30 years is up you should be fine........
If this property is a FH landed instead of one with 20+ years of land-lease left, it should be worth >$3M (instead of $623k) at today's price???? How many times different they are? About 5x? :tongue-new:
This is more than enough to show the rapid depreciation in value of 99-years leasehold property as they gets nearer nearer to the end of their land lease....... :onthego:
Really got 600k de wor Brudder. Cheapest recent one also 468K. 2.x times appreciation. At least 4 transactions.
LANDED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT JALAN CHEMPAKA KUNING Semi-detached 16 OCR 70 yrs lease commencing from 1964 Resale 1 623,000 - 3,035 Land - 205 Sep-14
Why need to give every household a $1.44M OCR private property and retirement amount of $1.73M?
You forgot the lecture you all have been given?
1. If you have not enough money, you should be living in HDB flat which is considered "luxurious" by world standard right? (Never mind that if you "own" a HDB flat, the word "own" is misleading because actually when you buy a HDB flat, you are actually the "lessee" of the HDB flat and not "owner", the actual owner is the HDB board, and you are just "99-years tenants" really....).
But then the same can be said for 99-years leasehold private properties (i.e., you are just 99-years tenants of the land, the real owner of the land is the government)...
2. What meals you want, at restaurant, food court or hawker centre?
Why you all so greedy? If you do not have such big head you should not be wearing such big hat right?
Want $1.44M OCR private property, want $1.73M retirement fund?
You want to have private and exclusive living environment that comes with private car park, private facilities and you want it for cheap or even free?
You want $1.73M retirement fund to eat in air-con food courts everyday for every meal and go overseas for holiday every 6 months?
Nobody in the world owe you this living ok? :onthego:
All these wonderful numbers derived by your steady conclusions and assumptions leh...
you complain our govt not doing enough to allow upgraders to upgrade to OCR $1.44m and households need $1.73m to retire mah... only u in this forum have this noble target for the population here.
I hope the govt take note of your aspirations and ask u out to give them policy advice to achieve the target for all upgraders... but dun make sg back to 3rd world standard hor...
It's not the rate you described for the depreciation of LHs definitely. What 1% for 20 years then more than 2% for the rest? I hope you realize that is so untrue by now.
If this property is a FH landed instead of one with 20+ years of land-lease left, it should be worth >$3M (instead of $623k) at today's price???? How many times different they are? About 5x? :tongue-new:
This is more than enough to show the rapid depreciation in value of 99-years leasehold property as they gets nearer nearer to the end of their land lease....... :onthego:
Strange indeed, when did I complain govt must allow upgraders to upgrade to $1.44M OCR private property and provide $1.73m to retire?
I am just doing out the calculation for them to let them know how much they need to retire at their current life-style and yet can GENUINELY can afford a $1.44M OCR private condo (which is the typical price for a reasonably sized 3 bedroom OCR condos).
I am reminding HDB upgraders that they need $1.73M to retire at their current life-style.......... Don't bet all their money in their property and have to work until they die........
I am reminding them don't just blindly trust other people who told them that $1.44M OCR private condos are cheap and they can easily afford if they just earn $8k pm and they have to bear in mind that they can't retire at their current life-style (NOT even if they earn $12k pm)!
What I did do is to point out that the table you provided about "affordabilty" of property price based on TDSR is seriously flawed because if people buy property like that, they just don't have enough money to retire at 65 years old (and still maintain their current life style)!
If govt really want the HDB upgraders to easily afford OCR private condos and yet have enough money to retire, then it is very easy wah - last time they force-bought most of the land at about $0.60 psf FH land, now they just need to sell the land at $1.00 psf 99-years leasehold land, sure now >50% HDB upgraders can afford OCR private condos! Also cut GST to 0%, lagi more can retire comfortably............. :dog:
What is your definition of "3rd world" standard?
Earning $2k pm but having living expenses of only $1k pm is "3rd world standard" or earning $12k pm but having living expenses that needs $12k pm is "3rd world standard"??? :scared-2:
All these wonderful numbers derived by your steady conclusions and assumptions leh...
you complain our govt not doing enough to allow upgraders to upgrade to OCR $1.44m and households need $1.73m to retire mah... only u in this forum have this noble target for the population here.
I hope the govt take note of your aspirations and ask u out to give them policy advice to achieve the target for all upgraders... but dun make sg back to 3rd world standard hor...
My rate of depreciation is just a rough rule of thumb, anyway, the FACT is, 99-years leasehold property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99-years, that is what we need to remember...............
For the details, you can read more about the 99-year time bomb many Singaporeans are sitting on (by clicking the link here)................ (http://mothership.sg/2014/04/the-99-year-time-bomb-some-singaporeans-are-sitting-on/)
It's not the rate you described for the depreciation of LHs definitely. What 1% for 20 years then more than 2% for the rest? I hope you realize that is so untrue by now.
That still does not stop those who know how to use LHs to their advantage to improve their lot. In 70 years (plus adult years) all/most people step in grave le. More important is whether can live gracefully and retire with ease. Why so hard up on FH if not compatible with plans?
My rate of depreciation is just a rough rule of thumb, anyway, the FACT is, 99-years leasehold property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99-years, that is what we need to remember...............
For the details, you can read more about the 99-year time bomb many Singaporeans are sitting on (by clicking the link here)................ (http://mothership.sg/2014/04/the-99-year-time-bomb-some-singaporeans-are-sitting-on/)
Yes you are right.
That is why when I tell them the fact, that is in order take advantage if they own 99-years Leasehold properties, they must sell before the properties is 20 years old. The longer they wait the lower value they get!
Don't understand why you still keep arguing with me about the problem with 99-years LH property and advising these people to sell early?
But then if people start flipping at 20 years old, there will be some who will start flipping at 15 years old, then more will start flipping at 10 years old, so the more people do that, the lower the property price will drop again!
So FACT is, owning 99-years LH property is a losing game over the long-term, so you MUST ensure that you flip earlier and faster than other people! :grief:
That still does not stop those who know how to use LHs to their advantage to improve their lot. In 70 years (plus adult years) all/most people step in grave le. More important is whether can live gracefully and retire with ease. Why so hard up on FH if not compatible with plans?
No I never say must sell at 20 years old. Clear the mortgage and witness / experience the true value of assets.
I focus on the use of property and the rental recovery strategy.
Yes you are right.
That is why when I tell them the fact, that is in order take advantage if they own 99-years Leasehold properties, they must sell before the properties is 20 years old. The longer they wait the lower value they get!
Don't understand why you still keep arguing with me about the problem with 99-years LH property and advising these people to sell early?
But then if people start flipping at 20 years old, there will be some who will start flipping at 15 years old, then more will start flipping at 10 years old, so the more people do that, the lower the property price will drop again!
So FACT is, owning 99-years LH property is a losing game over the long-term, so you MUST ensure that you flip earlier and faster than other people! :grief:
Not all upgraders will upgrade to 1200sqft ($1.44m) ocr lah..
Many have and will upgrade to smaller size and lower quantum ones
Also many do not need $1.73m to retire
Ah... TDSR is flawed. Yes indeed. Which policies are perfect in this world? NONE.
btw, on 3rd world...u old bird, no need me to tell u which countries hv third world standard with their relative housing pricing.
Strange indeed, when did I complain govt must allow upgraders to upgrade to $1.44M OCR private property and provide $1.73m to retire?
I am just doing out the calculation for them to let them know how much they need to retire at their current life-style and yet can GENUINELY can afford a $1.44M OCR private condo (which is the typical price for a reasonably sized 3 bedroom OCR condos).
I am reminding HDB upgraders that they need $1.73M to retire at their current life-style.......... Don't bet all their money in their property and have to work until they die........
I am reminding them don't just blindly trust other people who told them that $1.44M OCR private condos are cheap and they can easily afford if they just earn $8k pm and they have to bear in mind that they can't retire at their current life-style (NOT even if they earn $12k pm)!
What I did do is to point out that the table you provided about "affordabilty" of property price based on TDSR is seriously flawed because if people buy property like that, they just don't have enough money to retire at 65 years old (and still maintain their current life style)!
If govt really want the HDB upgraders to easily afford OCR private condos and yet have enough money to retire, then it is very easy wah - last time they force-bought most of the land at about $0.60 psf FH land, now they just need to sell the land at $1.00 psf 99-years leasehold land, sure now >50% HDB upgraders can afford OCR private condos! Also cut GST to 0%, lagi more can retire comfortably............. :dog:
What is your definition of "3rd world" standard?
Earning $2k pm but having living expenses of only $1k pm is "3rd world standard" or earning $12k pm but having living expenses that needs $12k pm is "3rd world standard"??? :scared-2:
My Response to your half-truths (or some people say is half-lies intending to mislead others, depending on how they intrepret the intention of the speakers/writers)........
1. Yes, not all upgraders upgrade to 1200 sqft OCR private condos (HALF-TRUTH),
but most will want to if they can "afford" because anything smaller than that for a family is claustrophobic (FACT).
2. Many HDB upgraders do not need $1.73M to retire is a half-truth (HALF-TRUTH),
BECAUSE they will have to downgrade their living life style they are used to now (FACT) if they don't have $1.73M at 65 years old.......
3. You said that I said "TDSR is flawed" (FALSE).
I said your table of property "affordability" is flawed without considering whether the person has enough money to retire at 65 years old (FACT).
Khaw Boon Wan said a property is affordable only if the price is 4x annual income or less (FACT). His ratio I believe takes into consideration having enough for retirement.
4. You first mentioned 3rd world standard (FACT).
I asked you what is your definition of 3rd world standard (FACT).
Then you turn around to say "no need me to tell u"?
I have no idea what is your definition of 3rd world standard, and I don't think forumers here know too!
To me, 3rd world standard can also be that you earn $8k pm but your basic living expenses need to be $8k pm as well! (that means the person just have to work until they die (assuming that they can work until they die, which is a myth and the biggest assumption of all time)! :pig:
What else is considered 3rd world standard?
Is squeezing 4 people or more into a claustrophobic apartment of <1000 sqft considered 3rd world standard? To me, it is!
Not all upgraders will upgrade to 1200sqft ($1.44m) ocr lah..
Many have and will upgrade to smaller size and lower quantum ones
Also many do not need $1.73m to retire
Ah... TDSR is flawed. Yes indeed. Which policies are perfect in this world? NONE.
btw, on 3rd world...u old bird, no need me to tell u which countries hv third world standard with their relative housing pricing.
1. The TRUE value of 99-years Leasehold property is ZERO at the end of 99 years. This is a FACT!
2. As to the property strategy of owning 99-years LH property, as I already mentioned, the best strategy (to me) is to flip before they are 20 years old.
I have a friend who is even more kiasu, his strategy with 99-years LH property is that he will always flip even before the 99-years LH property is even 10 years old! :biggrin-new:
No I never say must sell at 20 years old. Clear the mortgage and witness / experience the true value of assets.
I focus on the use of property and the rental recovery strategy.
I also know the value of 999-yr leasehold is zero at the end of 999 years.
But is it really relevant to you???
90 years later, we would all have become ashes. Why so concerned?
Your friend's strategy is based on the immediate and current value. That is one strategy that may work in a booming market.
1. The TRUE value of 99-years Leasehold property is ZERO at the end of 99 years. This is a FACT!
2. As to the property strategy of owning 99-years LH property, as I already mentioned, the best strategy (to me) is to flip before they are 20 years old.
I have a friend who is even more kiasu, his strategy with 99-years LH property is that he will always flip even before the 99-years LH property is even 10 years old! :biggrin-new:
Ahh.... I am only telling half truths and hence telling lies here to mislead everyone....
While you are always telling the FACTS... you are a saint here.
You very steady.
All OCR of 1200sqft cost $1.44m. Upgraders cannot find 1200sqft ocr cheaper than $1.44m
Family of 4 must must stay at least 1200sqft size to be in clear mind.
The tables i provided are not my tables. Whoever are reasonably good with excel can do it. It is not flawed. It is flawed depending on individual spendings and savings habits and if the individual is able to progress nicely in his/her career.
TDSR is not perfect... Policies cannot be perfect to benefit everyone to the same extent.
$1.73m to retire.... one number fits all. Thats your noble target.
My Response to your half-truths (or some people say is half-lies intending to mislead others, depending on how they intrepret the intention of the speakers/writers)........
1. Yes, not all upgraders upgrade to 1200 sqft OCR private condos (HALF-TRUTH),
but most will want to if they can "afford" because anything smaller than that for a family is claustrophobic (FACT).
2. Many HDB upgraders do not need $1.73M to retire is a half-truth (HALF-TRUTH),
BECAUSE they will have to downgrade their living life style they are used to now (FACT) if they don't have $1.73M at 65 years old.......
3. You said that I said "TDSR is flawed" (FALSE).
I said your table of property "affordability" is flawed without considering whether the person has enough money to retire at 65 years old (FACT).
Khaw Boon Wan said a property is affordable only if the price is 4x annual income or less (FACT). His ratio I believe takes into consideration having enough for retirement.
4. You first mentioned 3rd world standard (FACT).
I asked you what is your definition of 3rd world standard (FACT).
Then you turn around to say "no need me to tell u"?
I have no idea what is your definition of 3rd world standard, and I don't think forumers here know too!
To me, 3rd world standard can also be that you earn $8k pm but your basic living expenses need to be $8k pm as well! (that means the person just have to work until they die (assuming that they can work until they die, which is a myth and the biggest assumption of all time)! :pig:
What else is considered 3rd world standard?
Is squeezing 4 people or more into a claustrophobic apartment of <1000 sqft considered 3rd world standard? To me, it is!
Why are people not saving enough for retirement?
Because of ignorance?
Because they have been misled into believing that they need very little to retire?
NO WONDER it is a FACT that a whopping 65% of retirees' saving will not last! (read link below...)
A whopping 65% of retirees’ saving will not last, says NTUC Income’s survey (https://www.ifa.sg/a-whopping-65-of-retirees-saving-will-not-last-says-ntuc-incomes-survey/)
7, March 2016
It was reported that 65% of retirees feel that their savings will not last through retirement. This survey was conducted by Nielsen commissioned by NTUC Income. In addition, retirees say that one of their main sources of income is from their children.
Also, among the younger Singaporeans who were surveyed:
20% of the 25 to 35 year-olds listed saving for a first property as their main priority, followed by providing money for their daily needs (14%).
Saving for retirement only becomes a priority for those more than 36 years of age.
The survey stated that among those adults who have yet to plan for their retirement:
40% said it’s due to the lack of understanding of the available options.
25% do not know how much is needed.
Source: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/1-in-3-young-singaporean/2516136.html
Comments:
Once again, another survey shows that there is something wrong with Singaporeans’ financial well being. The result of the survey is always the same: people are not planning for their retirement.
...........................................................
Ahh.... I am only telling half truths and hence telling lies here to mislead everyone....
While you are always telling the FACTS... you are a saint here.
You very steady.
All OCR of 1200sqft cost $1.44m. Upgraders cannot find 1200sqft ocr cheaper than $1.44m
Family of 4 must must stay at least 1200sqft size to be in clear mind.
The tables i provided are not my tables. Whoever are reasonably good with excel can do it. It is not flawed. It is flawed depending on individual spendings and savings habits and if the individual is able to progress nicely in his/her career.
TDSR is not perfect... Policies cannot be perfect to benefit everyone to the same extent.
$1.73m to retire.... one number fits all. Thats your noble target.
U have more faith in surveys than the govt...
This type of survey is like asking if u are happy with your salary?
If one is earning $10k monthly, he will spend and live pretty good.
Then he is retrenched and now now got a pay cut to $5k monthly. Will he stilll spend like when he was earning $10k?
Similarly when one is retired, how many actually will spend like when he was still working with an income?
Our govt is very smart one, they have the cpf in place, so that all of us will not be a burden to the country. They will ensure u have enough money to live independently. But if anyone wants to continue living like a king, then it depends on how much he has saved (in cash or in kind). No way our govt is going to become a welfare state and make the mistake like in greece.
Why are people not saving enough for retirement?
Because of ignorance?
Because they have been misled into believing that they need very little to retire?
NO WONDER it is a FACT that a whopping 65% of retirees' saving will not last! (read link below...)
Let me offer my 2cents view...
Teddy is an old bird here... I am a new bird here.
From the handful of comments n views given that I had read, I am quite sure teddy has managed a few bites of the cherry of the housing boom... but I am quite sure teddy is not a finance guy.
Saying LH is lousier than FH is akin to saying renting is lousier than owning a LH or FH?
Maybe some will only make decision to buy by considering only buying and selling price (and selling price is zero at end of LH 99 as what teddy is saying). Do u not consider other financial jargon or cash flow?
Is LH a depreciating asset? So no one should touch a depreciating asset?
Over the last 10 years, i have evaluated and executed both investment n divestment of alternate assets of usd1 billion in my work. All I can say is that it is too simplistic to just say all LH is worse than FH at all times of entry into the investment.
1. The TRUE value of 99-years Leasehold property is ZERO at the end of 99 years. This is a FACT!
2. As to the property strategy of owning 99-years LH property, as I already mentioned, the best strategy (to me) is to flip before they are 20 years old.
I have a friend who is even more kiasu, his strategy with 99-years LH property is that he will always flip even before the 99-years LH property is even 10 years old! :biggrin-new:
The more important question is what kind of strategies allows one to retire well.
All out for FH?
Reserve some funds for reserve or double or more properties, the tenure depending on the best options available. In fact, even 60yr LHs can help one retire well.
More important is the purpose.
Why are people not saving enough for retirement?
Because of ignorance?
Because they have been misled into believing that they need very little to retire?
NO WONDER it is a FACT that a whopping 65% of retirees' saving will not last! (read link below...)
Who knows who is who?
As you said I am not a finance guy or you execute US$ Billions in your work?
So you mean you consider financial jargon and cashflow?
But yet you can't calculate and don't even know that those HDB upgraders if they buy a $1.44M OCR private condo can't even retire at 65 years old?
From what you said, either you are not investment savy (Theory is 1 thing, putting into practice which can make money is another) or you are not truthful with your personal agenda????
No wonder there are people who have been tasked to deal with US Billion but still lose money!
:glee:
Let me offer my 2cents view...
Teddy is an old bird here... I am a new bird here.
From the handful of comments n views given that I had read, I am quite sure teddy has managed a few bites of the cherry of the housing boom... but I am quite sure teddy is not a finance guy.
Saying LH is lousier than FH is akin to saying renting is lousier than owning a LH or FH?
Maybe some will only make decision to buy by considering only buying and selling price (and selling price is zero at end of LH 99 as what teddy is saying). Do u not consider other financial jargon or cash flow?
Is LH a depreciating asset? So no one should touch a depreciating asset?
Over the last 10 years, i have evaluated and executed both investment n divestment of alternate assets of usd1 billion in my work. All I can say is that it is too simplistic to just say all LH is worse than FH at all times of entry into the investment.
I believe in FACTs, not just words from government or anybody else......... Words are cheap......... :glee:
At least NTUC Income show us the data.........
What about you?
Oh by the way, NTUC Income is quasi-government, you questioning they fabricated their data???? :neglected:
U have more faith in surveys than the govt...
This type of survey is like asking if u are happy with your salary?
If one is earning $10k monthly, he will spend and live pretty good.
Then he is retrenched and now now got a pay cut to $5k monthly. Will he stilll spend like when he was earning $10k?
Similarly when one is retired, how many actually will spend like when he was still working with an income?
Our govt is very smart one, they have the cpf in place, so that all of us will not be a burden to the country. They will ensure u have enough money to live independently. But if anyone wants to continue living like a king, then it depends on how much he has saved (in cash or in kind). No way our govt is going to become a welfare state and make the mistake like in greece.
Ahhh.... again your 1.44m n 1.73m retire money...
That is the govt aim to let all singaporean to have?
I dun bother to work on these numbers as different people have different aspirations. These are just one set of numbers and only your aspiration.
ask your friends working on funds... how to evaluate depreciating asset (as what u called LH), FH... or buy vs lease... i am sure these are basics for them.
Who knows who is who?
As you said I am not a finance guy or you execute US$ Billions in your work?
So you mean you consider financial jargon and cashflow?
But yet you can't calculate and don't even know that those HDB upgraders if they buy a $1.44M OCR private condo can't even retire at 65 years old?
From what you said, either you are not investment savy (Theory is 1 thing, putting into practice which can make money is another) or you are not truthful with your personal agenda????
No wonder there are people who have been tasked to deal with US Billion but still lose money!
:glee:
The survey can also ask if they happy with their salary too.
If 65% says not happy, give them a pay raise.
I believe in FACTs, not just words from government or anybody else......... Words are cheap......... :glee:
At least NTUC Income show us the data.........
What about you?
Oh by the way, NTUC Income is quasi-government, you questioning they fabricated their data???? :neglected:
For most people, wealth growth is ending at age 45. At this age you are at the peak of your personal wealth creation. Your income will not grow much anymore. You are half way in paying off your mortgage. Your children need tons of money for education. Your old car need replacement. Your old house need major renovation. So the best you can do is minimal saving. So if you pass this age without much investment, you can kiss goodbye retirement.
Nowadays people marry later... And with the shift in kinds of employment available, I think the new wealth peak should be 50.
But with all debts structured to be preferably repaid by 65, the latest one should invest aggressively is indeed 45.
For most people, wealth growth is ending at age 45. At this age you are at the peak of your personal wealth creation. Your income will not grow much anymore. You are half way in paying off your mortgage. Your children need tons of money for education. Your old car need replacement. Your old house need major renovation. So the best you can do is minimal saving. So if you pass this age without much investment, you can kiss goodbye retirement.
Well, the government MND Minister Mr Khaw tell people NOT to pay more than 4x their annual income for a property if they want to have enough to retire lah! It is not exact figure, a general rule of thumb, but good enough!
Yes, different people have different aspirations, but my computation of $1.73M needed at 65 years old is based on the existing life-style of the HDB upgraders who are earning a household income of $8k pm and that is what they are used to having, not that I am asking them to upgrade their life-style
so need $1.73M....
So simple financial calculation you also don't know and you still said you know financial and cash flow very well but i don't and you have executed US$ billions transactions?
Like that how you do financial calculations before you execute all those US$ Billion transaction? A shot in the dark? Like that most likely will not make
much money (or don't even know make money or not)! :chargrined:
Obviously as you said, if they don't have $1.73M, they can made do with less, BUT please tell them that they just need to know that they need to downgrade their life-style, sell their OCR private condo and shift into a HDB studio, made do with less, calculate hard to see whether they can cut their expenditure, still fine........... Who knows, the couple may even be able to afford to retire at 65 years old with just $50k pot of money (since as you advocated how much need to retire is just aspiration, may be to you $10k also can retire?) ............................ :angel:
Ahhh.... again your 1.44m n 1.73m retire money...
That is the govt aim to let all singaporean to have?
I dun bother to work on these numbers as different people have different aspirations. These are just one set of numbers and only your aspiration.
ask your friends working on funds... how to evaluate depreciating asset (as what u called LH), FH... or buy vs lease... i am sure these are basics for them.
So what do you mean?
Are you trying to tell us that NTUC Income published a survey that is rubbish or they fabricated the data?
Is there a need to beat around the bush without answering the question directly?
Sneaky sneaky smells like what a crook will do.................. :simmering:
The survey can also ask if they happy with their salary too.
If 65% says not happy, give them a pay raise.
I believe in FACTs, not just words from government or anybody else......... Words are cheap......... :glee:
At least NTUC Income show us the data.........
What about you?
Oh by the way, NTUC Income is quasi-government, you questioning they fabricated their data???? :neglected:
Those surveyed are staying in what type of housing and how many ppty do they have?
So what do you mean?
Are you trying to tell us that NTUC Income published a survey that is rubbish or they fabricated the data?
Is there a need to beat around the bush without answering the question directly?
Sneaky sneaky smells like what a crook will do.................. :simmering:
You are good. Brilliant and perfect. You only tell the facts. Your world evolves around 1.44m ocr and 1.73m retirement fund.
That is one magic set of numbers and ASSumptions.
Well, the government MND Minister Mr Khaw tell people NOT to pay more than 4x their annual income for a property if they want to have enough to retire lah! It is not exact figure, a general rule of thumb, but good enough!
Yes, different people have different aspirations, but my computation of $1.73M needed at 65 years old is based on the existing life-style of the HDB upgraders who are earning a household income of $8k pm and that is what they are used to having, not that I am asking them to upgrade their life-style
so need $1.73M....
So simple financial calculation you also don't know and you still said you know financial and cash flow very well but i don't and you have executed US$ billions transactions?
Like that how you do financial calculations before you execute all those US$ Billion transaction? A shot in the dark? Like that most likely will not make
much money (or don't even know make money or not)! :chargrined:
Obviously as you said, if they don't have $1.73M, they can made do with less, BUT please tell them that they just need to know that they need to downgrade their life-style, sell their OCR private condo and shift into a HDB studio, made do with less, calculate hard to see whether they can cut their expenditure, still fine........... Who knows, the couple may even be able to afford to retire at 65 years old with just $50k pot of money (since as you advocated how much need to retire is just aspiration, may be to you $10k also can retire?) ............................ :angel:
You are welcome to read NTUC Income survey in the link I had attached (previously)...........
I can't speak for them and their conclusion.........
My own calculation and conclusion (based on Singapore Government's household and expenditure data) just happen to tally with their survey.............. Which is that the HDB upgraders earning $8k pm needs $1.73M to retire at 65 years old in order to maintain their existing life style....... Given this is the case, they can't even "afford" a $1M condo.......... :worked_till_5am:
Those surveyed are staying in what type of housing and how many ppty do they have?
Hmm not sure how much you can trust NTUC Income. Look at their marketing blunder. Even the mainstream media got misled and yet their management did not apologise but try to talk their way out. Some integrity issue there.
U are already speaking for them on the conclusions.
So u do not know the profile of the sampling?
You are welcome to read NTUC Income survey in the link I had attached (previously)...........
I can't speak for them and their conclusion.........
My own calculation and conclusion (based on Singapore Government's household and expenditure data) just happen to tally with their survey.............. Which is that the HDB upgraders earning $8k pm needs $1.73M to retire at 65 years old in order to maintain their existing life style....... Given this is the case, they can't even "afford" a $1M condo.......... :worked_till_5am:
Magic numbers and assumptions????
My numbers are all based on factual data from Singapore government, and based on standard established financial theory and calculations, not assumptions! You better put that into your mind and stop making baseless accusation!
From your comments, I can definitely tell that you a real financial idiot!!!!!!!!!!
Still want to blow trumpet you execute US$ Billion when you are a financial idiot? If you do I fear for the company! They must have lots of $$$ to burn!
Don't know what to say! :mask:
You are good. Brilliant and perfect. You only tell the facts. Your world evolves around 1.44m ocr and 1.73m retirement fund.
That is one magic set of numbers and ASSumptions.
My conclusion?
My conclusion is that HDB upgraders earning $8k pm CANNOT "afford" a $1M OCR private condo if they want to retire at 65 years old and still maintain their existing life style (because they need $1.73M), simple as that!
All these are based on Singapore government's hard data (facts), calculated based on established financial principles.... If you don't know how they are derived, then there is nothing much I can say more because it is not my job to educate a financial idiot! :crushed:
Given so, then it is really rude to keep insinuating that those numbers I calculated are "magic numbers" and "assumptions"! Looks like only a bloody crook and spineless low form creature will behave that way...........
U are already speaking for them on the conclusions.
So u do not know the profile of the sampling?
Yes, you have one magic set of numbers and ASSumptions to work on for the whole population of upgraders!
Life is simple.
Magic numbers and assumptions????
My numbers are all based on factual data from Singapore government, and based on standard established financial theory and calculations, not assumptions! You better put that into your mind and stop making baseless accusation!
From your comments, I can definitely tell that you a real financial idiot!!!!!!!!!!
Still want to blow trumpet you execute US$ Billion when you are a financial idiot? If you do I fear for the company! They must have lots of $$$ to burn!
Don't know what to say! :mask:
I am so happy to make you so worked up!
Haha.... You do not know the profile of the sampling. What a joker.
My conclusion?
My conclusion is that HDB upgraders earning $8k pm CANNOT "afford" a $1M OCR private condo if they want to retire at 65 years old and still maintain their existing life style (because they need $1.73M), simple as that!
All these are based on Singapore government's hard data (facts), calculated based on established financial principles.... If you don't know how they are derived, then there is nothing much I can say more because it is not my job to educate a financial idiot! :crushed:
Given so, then it is really rude to keep insinuating that those numbers I calculated are "magic numbers" and "assumptions"! Looks like only a bloody crook and spineless low form creature will behave that way...........
I admire you that u do not believe just words from govt except mr khaw... but mr khaw is in the govt hor...
I also admire u do not believe anyone else except quoting a survey by ntuc.... without knowing the profile of those surveyed with such vague question akin to asking if u happy with your salary now...
I admire u talk about facts... with one set of magic numbers and ASSumptions
I admire u have a foregone conclusion against kelonguni bro that LH is useless and stick to it... i hope you go learn something fm your friends.
I admire it is a simple life for u to do back of the envelope calculations that ocr is 1.44m only (no cheaper than that) and all upgraders in sg needs 1.73m to retire.
u will have a long life to be a simple minded but be more cool...i dun want to see u with high blood pressure.
I believe in FACTs, not just words from government or anybody else.........
:
He actually has even more radical ideas.
According to him, LHs are just depreciating assets. HDBs are not even assets. He also believes that people in the west filter the air for the island with their lungs.
It's ok, we can only present the case objectively to people who can be objective.
I admire you that u do not believe just words from govt except mr khaw... but mr khaw is in the govt hor...
I also admire u do not believe anyone else except quoting a survey by ntuc.... without knowing the profile of those surveyed with such vague question akin to asking if u happy with your salary now...
I admire u talk about facts... with one set of magic numbers and ASSumptions
I admire u have a foregone conclusion against kelonguni bro that LH is useless and stick to it... i hope you go learn something fm your friends.
I admire it is a simple life for u to do back of the envelope calculations that ocr is 1.44m only (no cheaper than that) and all upgraders in sg needs 1.73m to retire.
u will have a long life to be a simple minded but be more cool...i dun want to see u with high blood pressure.
1. Only crook will try to twist what I said and don't dare answer question, like you insinuating that NTUC Income fabricated and published some rubbish statistics about their survey that many Singaporeans do not have enough to retire just because you disagree with them........
2. I quoted NTUC Income survey because it supported my calculations based on hard facts. On the other hand, you never show facts to rebuke what I calculated, only empty words and insinuations. For that forumers here will be smart enough to judge for themselves.
3. Again, some financial idiot just trying to insinuate my financial established calculations as "assumptions" using empty words just because he/she can't back up with facts and hard numbers to rebuke what I said.
4. LH property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99-years lease, that is a FACT. You wanna say this is not a FACT?
5. Again, low form spineless creature trying to twist my words and take thing out of context..........
Let me state my claim again: Current HDB upgraders whose household income is $8k pm needs $1.73M at 65 years old if they want to retire at 65 years old and maintain their current life style, and to achieve that they can't even afford a $1M OCR condo! This is all based on data and Statistics from Singapore Government.
If you disagree, show us the figures to rebuke that, don't have to use empty words and insinuations, no wonder empty vessel make the loudest noise! And only crook and low moral character people will resort to such means..........
6. I lead very carefree and happy life, still very healthy and no risk of high blood pressure. The secret to a healthy life as a person grows old is to always stay happy and NOT to stress oneself and over-load oneself (with work etc), not to worry about so many things, especially about NOT having enough money.....
Worry kills, and the health effects is usually irreversible!
So, it is important for HDB upgraders to learn NOT to OVER-LEVERAGE themselves to buy CONDO and keep worrying about not having enough money to retire...........
1. I admire you that u do not believe just words from govt except mr khaw... but mr khaw is in the govt hor...
2. I also admire u do not believe anyone else except quoting a survey by ntuc.... without knowing the profile of those surveyed with such vague question akin to asking if u happy with your salary now...
3. I admire u talk about facts... with one set of magic numbers and ASSumptions
4. I admire u have a foregone conclusion against kelonguni bro that LH is useless and stick to it... i hope you go learn something fm your friends.
5. I admire it is a simple life for u to do back of the envelope calculations that ocr is 1.44m only (no cheaper than that) and all upgraders in sg needs 1.73m to retire.
6. u will have a long life to be a simple minded but be more cool...i dun want to see u with high blood pressure.
But they are all FACTs, despite what you claim??? ha ha ha!
Let's see which is NOT FACTS:
(1) LHs are just depreciating assets.
LH property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99 years lease, and it has MUCH MUCH lower value than FH property even if both are of the same age as LH lease runs down, this is a FACT!
(2) HDBs are not even assets.
HDB "owners" are not really "owners", they are lessees of HDB flats!
The real HDB flats' owner is HDB board!
If I am a lessee of an item/property (in this case a HDB flat), I won't claim what I leased to be my asset, I won't!
This is also a FACT!
(3) He also believes that people in the west filter the air for the island with their lungs.
The people living in the West nearest the source of pollution would always be breathing in the polluted air there, and as result, whether you like it or not, it is still a FACT that they are already helping to filter the polluted air!
So still a FACT!
Ha ha ha, after scrutinizing all my statements, they are still PROVEN to be FACTUAL!
He actually has even more radical ideas.
According to him, (1) LHs are just depreciating assets. (2) HDBs are not even assets. (3) He also believes that people in the west filter the air for the island with their lungs.
It's ok, we can only present the case objectively to people who can be objective.
1. So far we have not even managed to find 1 LH property that demonstrates your claim. In fact, the only Chempaka Kuning landed property example you gave had its price more than double over a 10-year period with the lease drawn down from 30+ to 20+ years. I will be glad to retract my statement if you can but give 1 real world example.
2. Some HDB owners paid up their mortgages and become landlords, collecting back the full cost of the HDB flat they "bought". The proceeds can be used to fund new property purchases, children's studies and even for their retirement. Why can't such a revenue-generating mechanism be regarded as an asset?
3. It shows you have no knowledge of the concepts of diffusion and the real physical size of Singapore. Else it will be just like those advertisements that claim to "help" improve health - negligible impact actually.
But they are all FACTs, despite what you claim??? ha ha ha!
Let's see which is NOT FACTS:
(1) LHs are just depreciating assets.
LH property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99 years lease, and it has MUCH MUCH lower value than FH property even if both are of the same age as LH lease runs down, this is a FACT!
(2) HDBs are not even assets.
HDB "owners" are not really "owners", they are lessees of HDB flats!
The real HDB flats' owner is HDB board!
If I am a lessee of an item/property (in this case a HDB flat), I won't claim what I leased to be my asset, I won't!
This is also a FACT!
(3) He also believes that people in the west filter the air for the island with their lungs.
The people living in the West nearest the source of pollution would always be breathing in the polluted air there, and as result, whether you like it or not, it is still a FACT that they are already helping to filter the polluted air!
So still a FACT!
Ha ha ha, after scrutinizing all my statements, they are still PROVEN to be FACTUAL!
All apartments LH or FH when reach 50 years old...will be crushed to the ground. Its simply just too old and health hazzard. It will be too expensive to renovate and maintain. In 50 years we will drive flying cars and our AC ledge is not big enough for us to park.
You will have a long life... Simple minded, simple facts works for you...
The last time you do not even know difference between MSR and TDSR....
Hope you can learn from the learned ones among your friends.
Look up the CPF scheme, do a projection of the OA n SA... Insurance savings plans.... Monthly allowance from children.... Dividends.. Bonds coupons... Rental yields... Each has their own targets and aspirations to retire.
I am indeed not as learned as you.
1. Only crook will try to twist what I said and don't dare answer question, like you insinuating that NTUC Income fabricated and published some rubbish statistics about their survey that many Singaporeans do not have enough to retire just because you disagree with them........
2. I quoted NTUC Income survey because it supported my calculations based on hard facts. On the other hand, you never show facts to rebuke what I calculated, only empty words and insinuations. For that forumers here will be smart enough to judge for themselves.
3. Again, some financial idiot just trying to insinuate my financial established calculations as "assumptions" using empty words just because he/she can't back up with facts and hard numbers to rebuke what I said.
4. LH property has a value of ZERO at the end of 99-years lease, that is a FACT. You wanna say this is not a FACT?
5. Again, low form spineless creature trying to twist my words and take thing out of context..........
Let me state my claim again: Current HDB upgraders whose household income is $8k pm needs $1.73M at 65 years old if they want to retire at 65 years old and maintain their current life style, and to achieve that they can't even afford a $1M OCR condo! This is all based on data and Statistics from Singapore Government.
If you disagree, show us the figures to rebuke that, don't have to use empty words and insinuations, no wonder empty vessel make the loudest noise! And only crook and low moral character people will resort to such means..........
6. I lead very carefree and happy life, still very healthy and no risk of high blood pressure. The secret to a healthy life as a person grows old is to always stay happy and NOT to stress oneself and over-load oneself (with work etc), not to worry about so many things, especially about NOT having enough money.....
Worry kills, and the health effects is usually irreversible!
So, it is important for HDB upgraders to learn NOT to OVER-LEVERAGE themselves to buy CONDO and keep worrying about not having enough money to retire...........
Haha...
Thumbs up!
All apartments LH or FH when reach 50 years old...will be crushed to the ground. Its simply just too old and health hazzard. It will be too expensive to renovate and maintain. In 50 years we will drive flying cars and our AC ledge is not big enough for us to park.
He doesnt know what is an asset. He is setting his own accounting rules. Hope he can learn from his finance friends.
Both of us are not as learned as him.
He actually has even more radical ideas.
According to him, LHs are just depreciating assets. HDBs are not even assets. He also believes that people in the west filter the air for the island with their lungs.
It's ok, we can only present the case objectively to people who can be objective.
Talk is so CHEAP indeed!!
FACT is, if the HDB upgraders with household income of $8k pm want to continue to maintain their current life style and still want to retire at 65 years old, they need $1.73M at 65 years old and hence they just can't even afford a $1M condo! This is REAL HARD COLD FACT!
If you disagree, then show us the figures and facts! Don't need to engage in empty talk that prove nothing, you think you have achieved your aim but anybody who is not an idiot will know why you are engaging in empty talk only...............
Please show us concrete figures and illustrations, don't keep avoiding the question and beat around the bush with you cheap talk with nothing concrete to back up what you say.......
You will have a long life... Simple minded, simple facts works for you...
The last time you do not even know difference between MSR and TDSR....
Hope you can learn from the learned ones among your friends.
Look up the CPF scheme, do a projection of the OA n SA... Insurance savings plans.... Monthly allowance from children.... Dividends.. Bonds coupons... Rental yields...Each has their own targets and aspirations to retire.
I am indeed not as learned as you.
What? You have never seen property more than 100 years old? Why they existed if they are just too old and health hazzard? :chargrined:
All apartments LH or FH when reach 50 years old...will be crushed to the ground. Its simply just too old and health hazzard. It will be too expensive to renovate and maintain. In 50 years we will drive flying cars and our AC ledge is not big enough for us to park.
What? You have never seen property more than 100 years old? Why they existed if they are just too old and health hazzard? :chargrined:
I would say the maximum holding period for any property is 30 years. Its rare for any person to continue owning a property after they finish paying off their 30 years mortgage. So for the first owner, it doesn't matter if the property is LH or FH.
Ok, you mean cannot hold a property that is more than 30 years old and then must flip/sell?
Fair enough......
That is also what I am saying but my friend flip the LH property once it is 10 years old (may be that is a safer age for LH property to flip),
don't know why those other people keep denying it? Self interest perhaps??? :chargrined:
However, I don't believe in that because you only need to flip when you own 99-years Leasehold properties...... And there are times when you can't flip and you get stuck for another 8-10 years waiting for price to get better but value keep depreciating........... :emptiness:
I would say the maximum holding period for any property is 30 years. Its rare for any person to continue owning a property after they finish paying off their 30 years mortgage. So for the first owner, it doesn't matter if the property is LH or FH.
Well, I have finished paying the mortgage for two properties and still prefer to continue holding as income generators for other investments. Unless a point comes where the maintenance cost is higher than the revenues generated.
I would say the maximum holding period for any property is 30 years. Its rare for any person to continue owning a property after they finish paying off their 30 years mortgage. So for the first owner, it doesn't matter if the property is LH or FH.
I had given u two nice sensitivity tables... if u find difficulty to understand a sensitivity table, u can ask your friends.
These sensitivity tables dun give one set of magic numbers and ASSumptions though... it would be much more useful to other forummers than one set of ASSumptions.
Go read up on cpf.... it allows one to be self sufficient on necessities and not be a burden to other tax payers. But then, u will say no no... all of us need $1.73m to retire.
Talk is so CHEAP indeed!!
FACT is, if the HDB upgraders with household income of $8k pm want to continue to maintain their current life style and still want to retire at 65 years old, they need $1.73M at 65 years old and hence they just can't even afford a $1M condo! This is REAL HARD COLD FACT!
If you disagree, then show us the figures and facts! Don't need to engage in empty talk that prove nothing, you think you have achieved your aim but anybody who is not an idiot will know why you are engaging in empty talk only...............
Please show us concrete figures and illustrations, don't keep avoiding the question and beat around the bush with you cheap talk with nothing concrete to back up what you say.......
Hope u achieve the next goal of fully paid off your 3rd ppty soon! LH or FH or HDB... they are all nice assets.
Well, I have finished paying the mortgage for two properties and still prefer to continue holding as income generators for other investments. Unless a point comes where the maintenance cost is higher than the revenues generated.
I suggest you go read up more financial knowledge instead of trying to bullshit here and trying to mislead others..........
Your sensitive table is just about passing TDSR and made the BIGGEST ASSUMPTIONS of all time that the person will have enough to retire at 65 years old even if they pass TDSR to just have sufficient to pay down payment for that private property.........
Wow! You make the BIGGEST ASSUMPTIONS here and then turn around to accuse other of doing so?
After so long then Now I see......... Self interest at work here.............. :biggrin-new:
I had given u two nice sensitivity tables... if u find difficulty to understand a sensitivity table, u can ask your friends.
These sensitivity tables dun give one set of magic numbers and ASSumptions though... it would be much more useful to other forummers than one set of ASSumptions.
Go read up on cpf.... it allows one to be self sufficient on necessities and not be a burden to other tax payers. But then, u will say no no... all of us need $1.73m to retire.
Thanks! We can only speak to those with growth mindsets here, whether or not they respond to the thread. The inflexible one(s), can only pray hard that they do not curse too much about realities that do not fit their beliefs.
Hope u achieve the next goal of fully paid off your 3rd ppty soon! LH or FH or HDB... they are all nice assets.
Think people can now tell who are the ones with self-interests..........
Don't treat others like idiot hor..............
Aiyah wat you expect from a shit head. everything that come out of that trash gap is CRAP and TWISTED LIES.
Indeed no one know for sure if he or she can retire comfortably...
They could be earning $8k throughout their career or have a good career to hve a combined income >$20k by early 40s....
I am not as good as you to only dare to make ONE big ASSumption.
Cpf allow ones to retire with necessities without a burden to tax payers. The numbers are there.
I suggest you go read up more financial knowledge instead of trying to bullshit here and trying to mislead others..........
Your sensitive table is just about passing TDSR and made the BIGGEST ASSUMPTIONS of all time that the person will have enough to retire at 65 years old even if they pass TDSR to just have sufficient to pay down payment for that private property.........
Wow! You make the BIGGEST ASSUMPTIONS here and then turn around to accuse other of doing so?
After so long then Now I see......... Self interest at work here.............. :biggrin-new:
Thanks! We can only speak to those with growth mindsets here, whether or not they respond to the thread. The inflexible one(s), can only pray hard that they do not curse too much about realities that do not fit their beliefs.
He has his own beliefs that all must conform to his ASSumption.... that one size fits all.
It is fine, i accept he is simple-minded... rather than being ignorant as not even knowing what is termed as an Asset.
I am not learned enough to educate him further.
To a simple minded person, those are facts.
It is difficult for him to accept even though they are now 3 (kelonguni, yourself and me) against 1 (teddy).
I hope he will not be the next amos yee or roy ngerng... and just remain teddybear here in this forum.
Aiyah wat you expect from a shit head. everything that come out of that trash gap is CRAP and TWISTED LIES.
Ha ha ha!
3 men said there is "tiger" means there is really "tiger" on the street?
Even if 10 men said so also useless!
We have brain!
You think by propogating your self-interest with CHEAP EMPTY talk people will believe?
Biggest JOKE of all time, just like your BIGGEST ASSUMPTION of all time that everybody who passed TDSR can buy their private property and retire at 65 years while still maintaining their current living life-style!
Either you are a financial idiot or your self-interest is at play............
Looks like the 2nd factor is really at play now (got to suck in more people so that you people can flip your over-priced "baby" to someone else while making a decent profit).............. :surprise:
To a simple minded person, those are facts.
It is difficult for him to accept even though they are now 3 (kelonguni, yourself and me) against 1 (teddy).
I hope he will not be the next amos yee or roy ngerng... and just remain teddybear here in this forum.
minority the liar making appearance here?
Oh gosh!
You still haven't tell us why SGX did not bring FibreChem and Celestial Nutrifoods top management to Court for fraud despite you so incessantly telling that everything SGX had done is absolutely right and NOTHING WRONG!
Come on, minority, you the scambag and the biggest liar of all time here, face the question and don't just hide behind the skirts............
Aiyah wat you expect from a shit head. everything that come out of that trash gap is CRAP and TWISTED LIES.
Don't know what to say......... Sigh..........
When somebody said "no one know for sure if he or she can retire comfortably...", that means the person is a financial idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When your household are only $8k pm, and you are already about 45 years old, and you know your annual expenses range, you can't estimate how much need to retire while still maintaining your current life-style? Oh gosh!
And if CPF RA is enough for people to live a middle-income HDB upgrader life-style, the government don't need to keep raising the CPF Minimum Sum!!!!!!
Are you trying to tell us that Singapore Government purposely rise CPF Minimum Sum significantly beyond what is needed to SUCK in people's money????
I don't think so!
I recommend you to go consult a financial consult to help you plan since you are so clueless.............. :im-a-gonna-get-u:
Indeed no one know for sure if he or she can retire comfortably...
They could be earning $8k throughout their career or have a good career to hve a combined income >$20k by early 40s....
I am not as good as you to only dare to make ONE big ASSumption.
Cpf allow ones to retire with necessities without a burden to tax payers. The numbers are there.
Indeed 3 brains are not good enough against 1 simple minded brain.
Ha ha ha!
3 men said there is "tiger" means there is really "tiger" on the street?
Even if 10 men said so also useless!
We have brain!
You think by propogating your self-interest with CHEAP EMPTY talk people will believe?
Biggest JOKE of all time, just like your BIGGEST ASSUMPTION of all time that everybody who passed TDSR can buy their private property and retire at 65 years while still maintaining their current living life-style!
Either you are a financial idiot or your self-interest is at play............
Looks like the 2nd factor is really at play now (got to suck in more people so that you people can flip your over-priced "baby" to someone else while making a decent profit).............. :surprise:
1. You have agreed the two tables show how to pay off the ppty by age 65.
2. Cpf allows one to retire with necessities (inflation adjusted to MS) without burden to tax payers and own children.
3. What is the final amount saved by age 65 depends on their salary increasing over the years....$10k, 20k or 30k or?
Will they own a car? Toyota or lexus? Will they invest in equity or deposit in banks? Will they get allowance fm their children? Yes, talk is cheap but i not as good as u to make 1 big ASSumption. Do they like to sell off their private ppty to upgrade along the way with their increasing income? But if you do not agree everyone has different aspirations and options, u are indeed a simple minded person.
Don't know what to say......... Sigh..........
When somebody said "no one know for sure if he or she can retire comfortably...", that means the person is a financial idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When your household are only $8k pm, and you are already about 45 years old, and you know your annual expenses range, you can't estimate how much need to retire while still maintaining your current life-style? Oh gosh!
And if CPF RA is enough for people to live a middle-income HDB upgrader life-style, the government don't need to keep raising the CPF Minimum Sum!!!!!!
Are you trying to tell us that Singapore Government purposely rise CPF Minimum Sum significantly beyond what is needed to SUCK in people's money????
I don't think so!
I recommend you to go consult a financial consult to help you plan since you are so clueless.............. :im-a-gonna-get-u:
OK back to fundamentals linked to the thread.
For an upper-percentile income (say 70th to 80th) HDB upgrader concerned about costs and retirements, would you advise them to go for FH with an additional 20% premium? Say like-to-like, new to new same type of property comparison? If they could manage perfectly well with a 1-1.2M property in the outskirts, who is to say that they must aim for a CCR FH? Whose self-interests are we talking about if FH sites are so limited in locality to begin with? It might not even be compatible with a preferred location!
Or would you advise them to just stay continue to keep and stay in HDB, and keep money in banks or SSB / CPF to prepare for retirement?
Ha ha ha!
3 men said there is "tiger" means there is really "tiger" on the street?
Even if 10 men said so also useless!
We have brain!
You think by propogating your self-interest with CHEAP EMPTY talk people will believe?
Biggest JOKE of all time, just like your BIGGEST ASSUMPTION of all time that everybody who passed TDSR can buy their private property and retire at 65 years while still maintaining their current living life-style!
Either you are a financial idiot or your self-interest is at play............
Looks like the 2nd factor is really at play now (got to suck in more people so that you people can flip your over-priced "baby" to someone else while making a decent profit).............. :surprise:
I am not trying to protect any self-interest here, I let market take their course! So, answer to your question:
No! HDB upgraders earning 70th to 80th percentile income can't afford FH private property in CCR!
If these HDB upgraders can't even afford OCR 99-years Leasehold private property if they want to retire at 65 years old and yet maintain their current life-style by then, how they can afford FH CCR private property?!
These HDB upgraders should just live in HDB flats and can even retire early to smell roses if they want to! No over-leverage, can pay off HDB flats at 45 years old, don't need to worry about money, don't need to worry about losing jobs, don't need to see color of bosses' faces, don't need to worry about BEING STUCK with AN EXPENSIVE 99-years Leasehold private property whose lease is running down and value keep dropping and can't sell it when property market is BAD (need to sell in order to have money to retire), and still can maintain current COMFORTABLE life-style even if they RETIRE EARLY and hence they will have the best of both world!
Again, I call a horse a "horse"! No selling of koyak here, unlike some people trying to convince others to buy OCR private condos quoting TDSR eligibility (to help push up their properties' demand???) despite the fact that many of these HDB upgraders can ill-afford to do so............. :dejection:
OK back to fundamentals linked to the thread.
For an upper-percentile income (say 70th to 80th) HDB upgrader concerned about costs and retirements, would you advise them to go for FH with an additional 20% premium? Say like-to-like, new to new same type of property comparison? If they could manage perfectly well with a 1-1.2M property in the outskirts, who is to say that they must aim for a CCR FH? Whose self-interests are we talking about if FH sites are so limited in locality to begin with? It might not even be compatible with a preferred location!
Or would you advise them to just stay continue to keep and stay in HDB, and keep money in banks or SSB / CPF to prepare for retirement?
1. Don't bluff lah! The 2 tables just tell you the max property price you are eligible to buy under TDSR, that is all!
It doesn't tell you whether you can afford to pay off the property at age 65!
What if you lose your job? (Many people age 45 to 55 years old easily lose their jobs and can only find jobs paying half of their old pay!).
What if interest rate rises?
What if cost of living rises significantly?
More significantly, it doesn't tell you whether you have enough money to retire at 65 years old and still can maintain their current life style!
2. If really as you said "CPF allows one to retire with necessities " and is already inflation adjusted, then are you telling us that the Singapore Government purposely keep rising CPF Minimum Sum frequently to SUCK IN people's money???? This is the 2nd time I am asking you this question in response to your insinuation....... You don't dare to answer this question despite your insinuation??? :mask:
3. You are counting chicken before they are hatched!
At age 45, you are near the peak of your career and your pay rise will be slower thereafter.... You know what is your job future.......
Many HDB upgraders (who are PMETs) are more likely to get retrench than to get significant pay rise...........
4. Don't need to keep beating around the bush about "everyone has different aspirations and options"...., You really can't understand simple English???
Let me rephrase again:
The HDB upgraders whose household income is about $8k pm, their existing life-style (which is their aspiration for now) is an expenses of about $4k pm. Based on that, if they want to maintain their life-style and still want to retire at 65 years old, HDB upgraders need $1.73M pot of capital at 65 years old! Simple as at!
Nah! My calculation is just based their CURRENT ASPIRATION!
On the other hand, you are just giving CHEAP EMPTY talk..............
And by the way, it is because you yourself is unable to save $1.73M pot of capital by 65 years old and hence you keep insisting that this is not what HDB upgraders need???
1. You have agreed the two tables show how to pay off the ppty by age 65.
2. Cpf allows one to retire with necessities (inflation adjusted to MS) without burden to tax payers and own children.
3. What is the final amount saved by age 65 depends on their salary increasing over the years....$10k, 20k or 30k or?
Will they own a car? Toyota or lexus? Will they invest in equity or deposit in banks? Will they get allowance fm their children? Yes, talk is cheap but i not as good as u to make 1 big ASSumption. Do they like to sell off their private ppty to upgrade along the way with their increasing income? But if you do not agree everyone has different aspirations and options, u are indeed a simple minded person.
We haven't even gone into upgraders with more than half a million SGD immediate gains.
https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/4-estates-singapore-hdb-prices-000030938.html
I doubt what we say here has any impact on the city's prices. Will you go and buy an OCR LH based on what we say? You wouldn't of course. So what makes you think sophisticated Singaporeans who understand what is meant by dynamism and complexity would take what is written online as bible???
I am not trying to protect any self-interest here, I let market take their course! So, answer to your question:
No! HDB upgraders earning 70th to 80th percentile income can't afford FH private property in CCR!
If these HDB upgraders can't even afford OCR 99-years Leasehold private property if they want to retire at 65 years old and yet maintain their current life-style by then, how they can afford FH CCR private property?!
These HDB upgraders should just live in HDB flats and can even retire early to smell roses if they want to! No over-leverage, can pay off HDB flats at 45 years old, don't need to worry about money, don't need to worry about losing jobs, don't need to see color of bosses' faces, don't need to worry about BEING STUCK with AN EXPENSIVE 99-years Leasehold private property whose lease is running down and value keep dropping and can't sell it when property market is BAD (need to sell in order to have money to retire), and still can maintain current COMFORTABLE life-style even if they RETIRE EARLY and hence they will have the best of both world!
Again, I call a horse a "horse"! No selling of koyak here, unlike some people trying to convince others to buy OCR private condos quoting TDSR eligibility (to help push up their properties' demand???) despite the fact that many of these HDB upgraders can ill-afford to do so............. :dejection:
Oh, those are the ones who really can retire at 65 years old and maintain their current life style ONLY IF THEY DON'T BUY A PRIVATE PROPERTY! :star:
We haven't even gone into upgraders with more than half a million SGD immediate gains.
https://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/4-estates-singapore-hdb-prices-000030938.html
I doubt what we say here has any impact on the city's prices. Will you go and buy an OCR LH based on what we say? You wouldn't of course. So what makes you think sophisticated Singaporeans who understand what is meant by dynamism and complexity would take what is written online as bible???
3 brains?
1 LIAR brain, 1 hare brain, 1 what brain??? :dejection:
Indeed 3 brains are not good enough against 1 simple minded brain.
Don't anyhow say lah.
Here got many retired HDB upgraders. They keep quiet only...
Executed neatly, retiring at 55 is definitely no problem.
If 45 years old just finished paying off mortgage with 8k combined, maybe should advise to be defensive. What if 35 year old already reached 10K combined and mortgage paid off?
Oh, those are the ones who really can retire at 65 years old and maintain their current life style ONLY IF THEY DON'T BUY A PRIVATE PROPERTY! :star:
They can do their own financial calculations based on what we have shown.........
My calculation only for the scenario of 45 years old HDB upgraders earning household income of $8k pm and spending about $4k pm.........
Don't anyhow say lah.
Here got many retired HDB upgraders. They keep quiet only...
Executed neatly, retiring at 55 is definitely no problem.
If 45 years old just finished paying off mortgage with 8k combined, maybe should advise to be defensive. What if 35 year old already reached 10K combined and mortgage paid off?
You are smart. Even those earning like $20 or 30k should not buy a FH or landed or whatever, bcoz they may lose their job the next day. In fact, i think no one should even buy a hdb coz they may lose their job the next day. All of us should just stay in parents place. Nice.
oh on the cpf, why so angry against the govt saying they suck money... for me i am fine with the MS (with inflation adjustment) since i dun really need the money for own investment and happy to earn the risk free interest...
1. Don't bluff lah! The 2 tables just tell you the max property price you are eligible to buy under TDSR, that is all!
It doesn't tell you whether you can afford to pay off the property at age 65!
What if you lose your job? (Many people age 45 to 55 years old easily lose their jobs and can only find jobs paying half of their old pay!).
What if interest rate rises?
What if cost of living rises significantly?
More significantly, it doesn't tell you whether you have enough money to retire at 65 years old and still can maintain their current life style!
2. If really as you said "CPF allows one to retire with necessities " and is already inflation adjusted, then are you telling us that the Singapore Government purposely keep rising CPF Minimum Sum frequently to SUCK IN people's money???? This is the 2nd time I am asking you this question in response to your insinuation....... You don't dare to answer this question despite your insinuation??? :mask:
3. You are counting chicken before they are hatched!
At age 45, you are near the peak of your career and your pay rise will be slower thereafter.... You know what is your job future.......
Many HDB upgraders (who are PMETs) are more likely to get retrench than to get significant pay rise...........
4. Don't need to keep beating around the bush about "everyone has different aspirations and options"...., You really can't understand simple English???
Let me rephrase again:
The HDB upgraders whose household income is about $8k pm, their existing life-style (which is their aspiration for now) is an expenses of about $4k pm. Based on that, if they want to maintain their life-style and still want to retire at 65 years old, HDB upgraders need $1.73M pot of capital at 65 years old! Simple as at!
Nah! My calculation is just based their CURRENT ASPIRATION!
On the other hand, you are just giving CHEAP EMPTY talk..............
And by the way, it is because you yourself is unable to save $1.73M pot of capital by 65 years old and hence you keep insisting that this is not what HDB upgraders need???
I do hope you realise how kelong your calculations are though. Fresh graduate say 25 years old median salary in 2015 is closing in on $3500. How can a $8k combined household salary for 45 year olds be considered 60th percentile?
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/mobile/business/higher-starting-salaries/2564884.html
They can do their own financial calculations based on what we have shown.........
My calculation only for the scenario of 45 years old HDB upgraders earning household income of $8k pm and spending about $4k pm.........
The $8k household income at 60th percentile is from Singapore Government income data.
20 years ago, when these people (now 45 years old) started working, their pay only $2000 pm or even less. If their performance is mediocre, it is not surprising that their household income is only $8k pm now.
If you think that those earning $8k pm are mostly young fresh graduates, do you have supporting statistics?
I do hope you realise how kelong your calculations are though. Fresh graduate say 25 years old median salary in 2015 is closing in on $3500. How can a $8k combined household salary for 45 year olds be considered 60th percentile?
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/mobile/business/higher-starting-salaries/2564884.html
dreamer888
17-03-16, 18:34
Sorry to butt in here, but I think sometimes it's just excessive worrying on our part that we are not able to make certain decisions. I mean nobody can predict what will happen tomorrow. Even if we might have made adequate plans for retirement, are we able to tell that we can live that long to enjoy it in years to come? Plans remain as plans, it's only until we get to enjoy them that we can speak on hindsight.
Everyone is entitled to the kind of lifestyle they want to live. Some people may make tons of money but still stay in a HDB flat or some people may earn a normal salary but drive posh cars? It's really up to the person how he or she want to manage their finances.
For me, I am currently staying in a HDB flat and aiming to buy a private property. Quite a number of people who stayed in my area have already sold their flats and upgraded to a private property. I am not taking that step as I view property as both an investment and a home. If I sell high, I am likely to buy high as well (given all factors equal like a similar location etc.). So I am saving up the money to buy a 2nd property when the price and timing is right.
And Plan B for me is that if things don't work out well for me (interest rates rose tremendously, lost my job and etc.) and I can't afford the monthly instalments, I can sell my private property and return to staying in my HDB flat. I guess as long as you can manage your own expectations and have a backup plan, I would just go for it. Having too many "what-ifs" to ponder over will just put me in the same place as where I was, I am and will be.
Ok, so you are alleging that CPF Minimum Sum is more than enough for necessities retirement and the Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum despite being more than enough is just to SUCK IN more money only! :mask:
Let me send an email to CPF Board about your allegation and point them to your post here and see what they have to say............. :star:
You are smart. Even those earning like $20 or 30k should not buy a FH or landed or whatever, bcoz they may lose their job the next day. In fact, i think no one should even buy a hdb coz they may lose their job the next day. All of us should just stay in parents place. Nice.
oh on the cpf, why so angry against the govt saying they suck money... for me i am fine with the MS (with inflation adjustment) since i dun really need the money for own investment and happy to earn the risk free interest...
1. Don't bluff lah! The 2 tables just tell you the max property price you are eligible to buy under TDSR, that is all!
It doesn't tell you whether you can afford to pay off the property at age 65!
What if you lose your job? (Many people age 45 to 55 years old easily lose their jobs and can only find jobs paying half of their old pay!).
What if interest rate rises?
What if cost of living rises significantly?
More significantly, it doesn't tell you whether you have enough money to retire at 65 years old and still can maintain their current life style!
2. If really as you said "CPF allows one to retire with necessities " and is already inflation adjusted, then are you telling us that the Singapore Government purposely keep rising CPF Minimum Sum frequently to SUCK IN people's money???? This is the 2nd time I am asking you this question in response to your insinuation....... You don't dare to answer this question despite your insinuation??? :mask:
3. You are counting chicken before they are hatched!
At age 45, you are near the peak of your career and your pay rise will be slower thereafter.... You know what is your job future.......
Many HDB upgraders (who are PMETs) are more likely to get retrench than to get significant pay rise...........
4. Don't need to keep beating around the bush about "everyone has different aspirations and options"...., You really can't understand simple English???
Let me rephrase again:
The HDB upgraders whose household income is about $8k pm, their existing life-style (which is their aspiration for now) is an expenses of about $4k pm. Based on that, if they want to maintain their life-style and still want to retire at 65 years old, HDB upgraders need $1.73M pot of capital at 65 years old! Simple as at!
Nah! My calculation is just based their CURRENT ASPIRATION!
On the other hand, you are just giving CHEAP EMPTY talk..............
And by the way, it is because you yourself is unable to save $1.73M pot of capital by 65 years old and hence you keep insisting that this is not what HDB upgraders need???
Haha... typical of u.... "more than enough" is different from "enough"
Pls write to cpf.. but i doubt you have the balls as it is clear here who is the unhappy one here say cpf/govt sucks money....
Ok, so you are alleging that CPF Minimum Sum is more than enough for necessities retirement and the Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum despite being more than enough is just to SUCK IN more money only! :mask:
Let me send an email to CPF Board about your allegation and point them to your post here and see what they have to say............. :star:
I agree with you. Each of us has our own aspirations and targets. If all of us worry about losing our jobs, we should be like a teddybear, dun buy any house. Stay with parents.
Sorry to butt in here, but I think sometimes it's just excessive worrying on our part that we are not able to make certain decisions. I mean nobody can predict what will happen tomorrow. Even if we might have made adequate plans for retirement, are we able to tell that we can live that long to enjoy it in years to come? Plans remain as plans, it's only until we get to enjoy them that we can speak on hindsight.
Everyone is entitled to the kind of lifestyle they want to live. Some people may make tons of money but still stay in a HDB flat or some people may earn a normal salary but drive posh cars? It's really up to the person how he or she want to manage their finances.
For me, I am currently staying in a HDB flat and aiming to buy a private property. Quite a number of people who stayed in my area have already sold their flats and upgraded to a private property. I am not taking that step as I view property as both an investment and a home. If I sell high, I am likely to buy high as well (given all factors equal like a similar location etc.). So I am saving up the money to buy a 2nd property when the price and timing is right.
And Plan B for me is that if things don't work out well for me (interest rates rose tremendously, lost my job and etc.) and I can't afford the monthly instalments, I can sell my private property and return to staying in my HDB flat. I guess as long as you can manage your own expectations and have a backup plan, I would just go for it. Having too many "what-ifs" to ponder over will just put me in the same place as where I was, I am and will be.
Indeed not as learned as you... who doesnt even know what is termed as an Asset.
3 brains?
1 LIAR brain, 1 hare brain, 1 what brain??? :dejection:
Oh, so now you are saying that you didn't say that Singapore Government suck money through CPF?
And then you alleged that CPF Min Sum is more than enough for necessities for retirement!
So tell us here, which is your true opinion then since both are contradictory?
Either:
(1) CPF Minimum sum is more than enough for necessities retirement (statement make by you) and hence when Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money (as alleged by you)
OR
(2) CPF Min Sum is NOT ENOUGH for necessities retirement (hence you are LYING) and hence Singapore Government need to keep raising CPF Min Sum.
So You got no ball to speak straight and need to twist and turn and beat around the bush (so that later you can declare you never say Singapore Government purposely SUCK IN money???)
Oh no no, another snake-head like minority here..............
Haha... typical of u.... "more than enough" is different from "enough"
Pls write to cpf.. but i doubt you have the balls as it is clear here who is the unhappy one here say cpf/govt sucks money....
Amber Woods
17-03-16, 20:48
These cooling measures are temporary but temporary might mean one property cycle or until we hit a recession. So in a way I agree with teddybear.
I still feel that there are underlying demand from foreigners which SG government is trying to reduce but not eliminate. Our gahmen can also see our neighbours being 'less competitive' in terms of political, economic and social stability. The Singapore story is holding up pretty well....so far. I know quite alot of Hong Kongers and Malaysians trying to shift themselves and/or their monies out. Singapore is usually one of their consideration.
For the time being, the caps are all artificial or non really created by market forces (there is a gap between people having jobs and property prices going down). In the macro view, major economy powerhouses are trying damn hard to prevent a hard landing. In Singapore, we still have jobs and those who are letting go on 'fire sale' are really over leveraged. 1-2% interest increase across multiple properties has a multiplier effect on them. I call them speculators, not investors really.
As a single unit property investor myself, I am seeing probably 10% drop in my investment. I learn this: if we do not have holding power, better don't enter property at all. I just have to pay and pay until my very low floor Duo unit is completed in 2017 which we all know is not the most ideal year but who knows that in Nov 2013? No one forced me to sign the papers, PropertySoul thinks its a shit idea to enter the market etc. We did our sums and hope for the best.
All in all, I am supporting the cooling measures as ultimately, it will stop all the speculation and over zealous loans. Cheap money makes people stupid. Stupid people follow more stupid people. You want, I also want. A property market crash sparked by loan defaults is really no joke.
My 2 cents
This guy bought a low floor unit in Duo in Nov 2013 and hoping for the best now.
No worry, the OCR private properties owners should worry more.........
You can read Abstracts of MayBank Kim Eng Research report on Singapore property market below........
This guy bought a low floor unit in Duo in Nov 2013 and hoping for the best now.
Price declines to accelerate
4Q15 flash estimates of the private residential price index were down for the ninth consecutive quarter. Private home prices are now 8.4% off their peak in 3Q13. While the rate of decline has been moderate so far, we expect price falls to be more severe in 2016 as developers and the marginal landlords lower their asking prices in response to a persistently tepid market.
Developers who bought land after the implementation of ABSD in Dec 2011 will need to lower their prices to move all their units by their five-year deadlines, which will kick in from 4Q16.
Landlords looking to sell could also be more realistic in their price expectations given a weakening rental market. Rents continue to slide across the board with vacancy now at 7.8%. With the cap on the foreign workforce and a deluge of home completions in the year ahead, we expect vacancy rates to march higher.
Biggest downside for mass market
We reiterate that the mass market has the biggest downside risk. This is because prices in OCR have corrected the least since GFC. Furthermore, recent increases in the household-income ceiling for the application of ECs from SGD12,000 to SGD14,000 could shrink the pool of mass-market home buyers.
RHB research report:
We would park our money in the luxury segment vis-à-vis the mass market
segment because:
i. The luxury segment is attractively priced when compared to mass
market projects. This is in view that the core central region (CCR)
properties have fallen by 8.9% from their peak while outside central
region (OCR) properties have only dipped by 6.7%;
ii. Potential capital upside of c.4.1% for properties within the CCR, should
the spread between both segments normalise;
iii. Risks are skewed to the downside for properties within the mass
market region, while the property clock has likely bottomed (or near
bottomed) for the luxury segment.
Why should you be investing in Singapore:
i. Singapore offers the most affordable luxury homes among global cities;
ii. It has the lowest home price to income ratio at approximately 5x (Hong
Kong for instance has the highest home price to income of c.19x).
No problem. We welcome all diverse views, even if they differ significantly.
:)
Good that you have a ready long term plan.
One suggestion is that you can consider (depending on your location) alternative permutations to make the best out of the situation. For example, if you foresee yourself needing (or strongly desiring) to live in the city, given that HDB has not really fallen in price, it might be possible to trade up to a unit you can afford, with all the CMs tying everyone up.
Of course, if you have a long term plan that is even better, do stick with it, being sensitive to any changes in policies and directions. Good luck!
Sorry to butt in here, but I think sometimes it's just excessive worrying on our part that we are not able to make certain decisions. I mean nobody can predict what will happen tomorrow. Even if we might have made adequate plans for retirement, are we able to tell that we can live that long to enjoy it in years to come? Plans remain as plans, it's only until we get to enjoy them that we can speak on hindsight.
Everyone is entitled to the kind of lifestyle they want to live. Some people may make tons of money but still stay in a HDB flat or some people may earn a normal salary but drive posh cars? It's really up to the person how he or she want to manage their finances.
For me, I am currently staying in a HDB flat and aiming to buy a private property. Quite a number of people who stayed in my area have already sold their flats and upgraded to a private property. I am not taking that step as I view property as both an investment and a home. If I sell high, I am likely to buy high as well (given all factors equal like a similar location etc.). So I am saving up the money to buy a 2nd property when the price and timing is right.
And Plan B for me is that if things don't work out well for me (interest rates rose tremendously, lost my job and etc.) and I can't afford the monthly instalments, I can sell my private property and return to staying in my HDB flat. I guess as long as you can manage your own expectations and have a backup plan, I would just go for it. Having too many "what-ifs" to ponder over will just put me in the same place as where I was, I am and will be.
So mediocre performers at 45 years old versus good / high flyers at 35 years old.
Which group do you think I had in mind when I tried to assess the affordability estimation?
The $8k household income at 60th percentile is from Singapore Government income data.
20 years ago, when these people (now 45 years old) started working, their pay only $2000 pm or even less. If their performance is mediocre, it is not surprising that their household income is only $8k pm now.
If you think that those earning $8k pm are mostly young fresh graduates, do you have supporting statistics?
This guy bought a low floor unit in Duo in Nov 2013 and hoping for the best now.
He does not appear to be hoping for the best. Just being practical about it. Duo Residence recent caveats actually appear even higher than in 2013, although these seem to be higher floor units.
I would argue that right now (Feb 2016) it appears bad (because his mortgage has begun) but who knows how the situation will be like in 2017? Things can change very fast - remember that all the Big Twos are in Government's hands.
He has cleared TDSR in Nov 2013 - I don't think he will worry once the development TOPs. CCR leh, Teddy will give him a pat on the back!
No worry, the OCR private properties owners should worry more.........
You can read Abstracts of MayBank Kim Eng Research report on Singapore property market below........
All these analyst reports - tell me which one has come true since 2011?
Because of the way they look at things, they have no way of understanding what is affordability estimation of HDB Upgraders.
No point guessing (I never like to guess, which is pretty useless).
How about you show us some real data to show what % of these people earning $8k or more pm are in the age group of 35 years vs 45 years old (then we can delve further)?
Anyway, as I said, the $8k pm household can't really afford to buy OCR private condo at current price..... You should really be looking at the $10-12k pm household income group (this is the group earning at the 70th to 80th percentile range)...........
So mediocre performers at 45 years old versus good / high flyers at 35 years old.
Which group do you think I had in mind when I tried to assess the affordability estimation?
Since a broken clock is also right twice a day, the analyst reports will come true soon after being wrong for so long, that I am sure......... :surprise:
All these analyst reports - tell me which one has come true since 2011?
Because of the way they look at things, they have no way of understanding what is affordability estimation of HDB Upgraders.
10383
For your perusal.
I wish I can find the breakdown by age, but no luck.
Almost 15K (including employer CPF) translates to probably about 10K cash and 2.5K CPF OA combined.
Assuming the HDB upgraders are 45 years old, they have an available CPF-OA only TDSR load of 430+K (assuming 3.5% interest over 20 years), excluding their existing HDB. If they can put in another 2.5K cash (or generate from rent), leaving 7.5K for household expenses, they can easily loan to 860K. Together with their cash and existing CPF savings at 45 years old, you can only imagine how far their quantum can go up to, 860K + cash + CPF, assuming they wish to keep their HDB. The limitation of this calculation is their CPF OA will drop once they reach 50 years, but I am also assuming that the rent they collect will make up for the shortfall, unless they choose to live in both houses. They can also choose to liquidate one property at a later stage for retirement purposes.
Assuming they are 40 years old, the CPF-OA only TDSR load is 500K (without touching cash). With cash or rent top up, loaning 1M is achievable.
We can use Ilikeu table and calculate across the ages if we wish to.
No point guessing (I never like to guess, which is pretty useless).
How about you show us some real data to show what % of these people earning $8k or more pm are in the age group of 35 years vs 45 years old (then we can delve further)?
Anyway, as I said, the $8k pm household can't really afford to buy OCR private condo at current price..... You should really be looking at the $10-12k pm household income group (this is the group earning at the 70th to 80th percentile range)...........
Since a broken clock is also right twice a day, the analyst reports will come true soon after being wrong for so long, that I am sure......... :surprise:
A broken clock that runs 1s slow per day will only be right once every 43,200 days, or 118.4 years.
In which earlier post did I say 1) CPF Minimum sum is more than enough for necessities retirement and 2) when Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money?
Oh, so now you are saying that you didn't say that Singapore Government suck money through CPF?
And then you alleged that CPF Min Sum is more than enough for necessities for retirement!
So tell us here, which is your true opinion then since both are contradictory?
Either:
(1) CPF Minimum sum is more than enough for necessities retirement (statement make by you) and hence when Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money (as alleged by you)
OR
(2) CPF Min Sum is NOT ENOUGH for necessities retirement (hence you are LYING) and hence Singapore Government need to keep raising CPF Min Sum.
So You got no ball to speak straight and need to twist and turn and beat around the bush (so that later you can declare you never say Singapore Government purposely SUCK IN money???)
Oh no no, another snake-head like minority here..............
dreamer888
18-03-16, 10:36
No problem. We welcome all diverse views, even if they differ significantly.
:)
Good that you have a ready long term plan.
One suggestion is that you can consider (depending on your location) alternative permutations to make the best out of the situation. For example, if you foresee yourself needing (or strongly desiring) to live in the city, given that HDB has not really fallen in price, it might be possible to trade up to a unit you can afford, with all the CMs tying everyone up.
Of course, if you have a long term plan that is even better, do stick with it, being sensitive to any changes in policies and directions. Good luck!
Hi Kelonguni,
Thanks for your advice. We always feel that location is the most important factor when looking for properties so hence the reason why we like the ppties to be in the city. We are not willing to sell our HDB flat to trade up to a condo unit and so we are looking to rent out our HDB flat and purchase a condo unit for own stay and long term capital appreciation.
In the event if something unforeseen happens, at least we can sell the condo and return to stay in our HDB flat. If not, I might have to sell my condo at a significant loss and buy another ppty at a less desirable location.
Looks like a very solid and stable plan.
Get all the finances and administrative preparations ready in the meantime and monitor the sales situation.
Here's wishing you all the very best!
Hi Kelonguni,
Thanks for your advice. We always feel that location is the most important factor when looking for properties so hence the reason why we like the ppties to be in the city. We are not willing to sell our HDB flat to trade up to a condo unit and so we are looking to rent out our HDB flat and purchase a condo unit for own stay and long term capital appreciation.
In the event if something unforeseen happens, at least we can sell the condo and return to stay in our HDB flat. If not, I might have to sell my condo at a significant loss and buy another ppty at a less desirable location.
dreamer888
18-03-16, 11:36
Looks like a very solid and stable plan.
Get all the finances and administrative preparations ready in the meantime and monitor the sales situation.
Here's wishing you all the very best!
Thanks! We are just awaiting ABSD to be removed while also looking for further price correction. In the event if ABSD doesn't get removed, then we might consider decoupling (have enquired with HDB and they said we are eligible).
But you are not buying TOTO, you don't need to be exact to the single digit.
So being right twice a day is good enough........ Enough for people to SELL and to BUY at the RIGHT PRICE..........
A broken clock that runs 1s slow per day will only be right once every 43,200 days, or 118.4 years.
1. You should go read your posts at #115 and #122 again..........
2. We were told by a Minister that the reason to raise CPF Min Sum is to cover basic necessities retirement....
However, you insisted that CPF Min Sum is enough to cover basic necessities retirement, and hence I asked you whether you are alleging that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money".
Since you repeated the same statement (1) in response to my above question, we can also take it that that is what you mean, unless you tell us clearly that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is NOT to SUCK IN more money" BUT because CPF Min Sum is just NOT enough for basic necessities retirement!
(but then we know you can't because if you do so you are a LIAR and contradicting yourself!) :cheers1:
So at the end of the day, it is clear to us that you means either 1 of the 2 below (because both contradicts each other):
A. CPF Minimum sum is INDEED more than enough for necessities retirement and hence
you are alleging that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money".
or B. "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is NOT to SUCK IN more money" BUT because CPF Min Sum is just NOT enough for basic necessities retirement,
and hence you are lying about CPF Min Sum being enough for basic necessities retirement!
In which earlier post did I say 1) CPF Minimum sum is more than enough for necessities retirement and 2) when Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money?
Your explanation very confusing lei.......
Don't know what you mean by TDSR load........
If the family is not selling their HDB flat, they can only borrow 50% loan and still subject to 7% ABSD (you need to factor that in)......
Think should have age breakdown, you need to search harder....... (saw it before but can't remember where now)
10383
For your perusal.
I wish I can find the breakdown by age, but no luck.
Almost 15K (including employer CPF) translates to probably about 10K cash and 2.5K CPF OA combined.
Assuming the HDB upgraders are 45 years old, they have an available CPF-OA only TDSR load of 430+K (assuming 3.5% interest over 20 years), excluding their existing HDB. If they can put in another 2.5K cash (or generate from rent), leaving 7.5K for household expenses, they can easily loan to 860K. Together with their cash and existing CPF savings at 45 years old, you can only imagine how far their quantum can go up to, 860K + cash + CPF, assuming they wish to keep their HDB. The limitation of this calculation is their CPF OA will drop once they reach 50 years, but I am also assuming that the rent they collect will make up for the shortfall, unless they choose to live in both houses. They can also choose to liquidate one property at a later stage for retirement purposes.
Assuming they are 40 years old, the CPF-OA only TDSR load is 500K (without touching cash). With cash or rent top up, loaning 1M is achievable.
We can use Ilikeu table and calculate across the ages if we wish to.
Bro, if we treat them as 40-45 years old, they must have serviced the HDB loan for 10-20 years. Mostly paid up le lah...
Last time (10-20 years ago), the HDB loans are more than affordable, unlikely more than 300K. Some even 100+K or less.
I think you can read bro Dreamer888 response to get an idea of the options available to this group.
Your explanation very confusing lei.......
Don't know what you mean by TDSR load........
If the family is not selling their HDB flat, they can only borrow 50% loan and still subject to 7% ABSD (you need to factor that in)......
Think should have age breakdown, you need to search harder....... (saw it before but can't remember where now)
Ok, breakdown by age for you.......
For household income in the range of 70th-80th percentile, about 75% of Household Heads are more than 40 years old......
10383
For your perusal.
I wish I can find the breakdown by age, but no luck.
Almost 15K (including employer CPF) translates to probably about 10K cash and 2.5K CPF OA combined.
Assuming the HDB upgraders are 45 years old, they have an available CPF-OA only TDSR load of 430+K (assuming 3.5% interest over 20 years), excluding their existing HDB. If they can put in another 2.5K cash (or generate from rent), leaving 7.5K for household expenses, they can easily loan to 860K. Together with their cash and existing CPF savings at 45 years old, you can only imagine how far their quantum can go up to, 860K + cash + CPF, assuming they wish to keep their HDB. The limitation of this calculation is their CPF OA will drop once they reach 50 years, but I am also assuming that the rent they collect will make up for the shortfall, unless they choose to live in both houses. They can also choose to liquidate one property at a later stage for retirement purposes.
Assuming they are 40 years old, the CPF-OA only TDSR load is 500K (without touching cash). With cash or rent top up, loaning 1M is achievable.
We can use Ilikeu table and calculate across the ages if we wish to.
1. You should go read your posts at #115 and #122 again..........
2. We were told by a Minister that the reason to raise CPF Min Sum is to cover basic necessities retirement....
However, you insisted that CPF Min Sum is enough to cover basic necessities retirement, and hence I asked you whether you are alleging that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money".
Since you repeated the same statement (1) in response to my above question, we can also take it that that is what you mean, unless you tell us clearly that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is NOT to SUCK IN more money" BUT because CPF Min Sum is just NOT enough for basic necessities retirement!
(but then we know you can't because if you do so you are a LIAR and contradicting yourself!) :cheers1:
So at the end of the day, it is clear to us that you means either 1 of the 2 below (because both contradicts each other):
A. CPF Minimum sum is INDEED more than enough for necessities retirement and hence
you are alleging that "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money".
or B. "Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is NOT to SUCK IN more money" BUT because CPF Min Sum is just NOT enough for basic necessities retirement,
and hence you are lying about CPF Min Sum being enough for basic necessities retirement!
I quote and unquote below my posts #115 and #122 and highlighted in bold on the portion on cpf for everyone to read. I said "Cpf allows one to retire with necessities (inflation adjusted to MS) without burden to tax payers"....
I also quote and unquote my post #131 again below...stating that I am happy with the MS (inflation adjustment) to earn the current risk-free interest.
Did I say 1) CPF Minimum sum is more than enough for necessities retirement and 2) when Singapore Government keep raising CPF Min Sum the intention is to SUCK IN more money?
I had thought that you are only ignorant in financial terms, but seems that you have a problem in sentence construction too. But if you think your English standard is of Queen's Counsel standard, please do show us you have the balls and write to CPF.... and let's find out whether your English is more powderful (pun intended) or mine is more powerful in who is the one making those allegations.
****************
Post #115
Indeed no one know for sure if he or she can retire comfortably...
They could be earning $8k throughout their career or have a good career to hve a combined income >$20k by early 40s....
I am not as good as you to only dare to make ONE big ASSumption.
Cpf allow ones to retire with necessities without a burden to tax payers. The numbers are there.
****************
Post #122
1. You have agreed the two tables show how to pay off the ppty by age 65.
2. Cpf allows one to retire with necessities (inflation adjusted to MS) without burden to tax payers and own children.
3. What is the final amount saved by age 65 depends on their salary increasing over the years....$10k, 20k or 30k or?
Will they own a car? Toyota or lexus? Will they invest in equity or deposit in banks? Will they get allowance fm their children? Yes, talk is cheap but i not as good as u to make 1 big ASSumption. Do they like to sell off their private ppty to upgrade along the way with their increasing income? But if you do not agree everyone has different aspirations and options, u are indeed a simple minded person.
*****************
Post #131
You are smart. Even those earning like $20 or 30k should not buy a FH or landed or whatever, bcoz they may lose their job the next day. In fact, i think no one should even buy a hdb coz they may lose their job the next day. All of us should just stay in parents place. Nice.
oh on the cpf, why so angry against the govt saying they suck money... for me i am fine with the MS (with inflation adjustment) since i dun really need the money for own investment and happy to earn the risk free interest...
Our calculations have always been based on 40 and 45 years old. But thanks for showing that 30-39 plus 40-49 takes up 50% of cohort.
There must be a good reason why 81st to 100th percentile is truncated.
Is it linked to higher income in the young who might be the HDB upgraders we are studying? Note that our assumption that 81st to 100th percentile are already private property owners is not necessarily true.
Ok, breakdown by age for you.......
For household income in the range of 70th-80th percentile, about 75% of Household Heads are more than 40 years old......
Surprisingly, there are already a large % (28%!) with household income in 70th-80th percentile already living in private properties!
Even more surprising is that there are already a large % (14.9%!) with household income in 60th-70th percentile ALSO already living in private properties!
There are actually less HDB upgraders than we think? :cower:
Our calculations have always been based on 40 and 45 years old. But thanks for showing that 30-39 plus 40-49 takes up 50% of cohort.
There must be a good reason why 81st to 100th percentile is truncated.
Is it linked to higher income in the young who might be the HDB upgraders we are studying? Note that our assumption that 81st to 100th percentile are already private property owners is not necessarily true.
That means we should examine why a large proportion of the 81st to 100th percentile of income earners are not living in private properties, which means they must be living in HDBs.
Remember that private housing only takes 18% of all the housing available. The rest are predominantly HDBs.
Thanks for the enlightening stats. That really informs about a much higher latent affordability that we have been estimating!
Surprisingly, there are already a large % (28%!) with household income in 70th-80th percentile already living in private properties!
Even more surprising is that there are already a large % (14.9%!) with household income in 60th-70th percentile ALSO already living in private properties!
There are actually less HDB upgraders than we think? :cower:
Not a very big proportion of 81th-100th percentile really but there are, and possible Reasons:
1. Big families (household expenditures very big!, so not much money left for housing instalments)
2. Big spenders (don't have much savings, causing like (1))
3. Volatile incomes (could be earning in top 81th-100th 1 year and earning in bottom 50th another year)
4. Living with parents
5. People who like to live significantly below their means (even though they can afford private properties)
6. People living with aging (and possibly sickly) parents and/or kids with problems (needs high costs to take care of them, hence resulting in small savings, can't afford to buy private properties)........
7. (What else?).........
If people whose income are best able to to buy and afford private properties (like in 81th-100th percentile) refused to do, then nothing can make them change their mind IMHO and they are no longer potential HDB upgraders (can take these people out of your calculation)..........
That means we should examine why a large proportion of the 81st to 100th percentile of income earners are not living in private properties, which means they must be living in HDBs.
Remember that private housing only takes 18% of all the housing available. The rest are predominantly HDBs.
Thanks for the enlightening stats. That really informs about a much higher latent affordability that we have been estimating!
Maybe need to change the thread to...
Should HDB upgraders who can afford it buy CCR FH properties or OCR LH properties?
Not a very big proportion of 81th-100th percentile really but there are, and possible Reasons:
1. Big families (household expenditures very big!, so not much money left for housing instalments)
2. Big spenders (don't have much savings, causing like (1))
3. Volatile incomes (could be earning in top 81th-100th 1 year and earning in bottom 50th another year)
4. Living with parents
5. People who like to live significantly below their means (even though they can afford private properties)
6. People living with aging (and possibly sickly) parents and/or kids with problems (needs high costs to take care of them, hence resulting in small savings, can't afford to buy private properties)........
7. (What else?).........
If people whose income are best able to to buy and afford private properties (like in 81th-100th percentile) refused to do, then nothing can make them change their mind IMHO and they are no longer potential HDB upgraders (can take these people out of your calculation)..........
These reasonings I concur with you.
Cheers.
That's why I say when Teddybear is calm, he can be extremely astute.
The reasons are valid but also apply to all percentiles.
We are only estimating the affordability not claiming they must upgrade.
Not a very big proportion of 81th-100th percentile really but there are, and possible Reasons:
1. Big families (household expenditures very big!, so not much money left for housing instalments)
2. Big spenders (don't have much savings, causing like (1))
3. Volatile incomes (could be earning in top 81th-100th 1 year and earning in bottom 50th another year)
4. Living with parents
5. People who like to live significantly below their means (even though they can afford private properties)
6. People living with aging (and possibly sickly) parents and/or kids with problems (needs high costs to take care of them, hence resulting in small savings, can't afford to buy private properties)........
7. (What else?).........
If people whose income are best able to to buy and afford private properties (like in 81th-100th percentile) refused to do, then nothing can make them change their mind IMHO and they are no longer potential HDB upgraders (can take these people out of your calculation)..........
What if this 81st and 100th percentile are already multiple property owners?? But choose to live in HDB?
By logical sense, those who live in HDB has very low likelihood to be "multiple" private property owners, if you mean "multiple" to be more than 1.
There may be still be such cases, but I can bet that the possibility is extremely small.
If you can afford 2 or more private properties (say on top of your HDB flat), what is the likelihood of you living in HDB flat (knowing that even if don't work you can still generate good rental revenue from the other property)? (This is assuming that the private properties are family-size, and the person has choice of choosing between living the HDB flat and private property)....
Furthermore, HDB flat rental yield is better than private property! I am imaging that if I have 1 HDB and 1 private (and can "afford" both of them without over-leveraging), then I think I will definitely rent out HDB flat (better rental yield) and live in private (to enjoy the quality of life)! :pig:
What if this 81st and 100th percentile are already multiple property owners?? But choose to live in HDB?
dreamer888
19-03-16, 14:20
Gotta agree with you on the above comments. I would say most, if not all, Singaporeans would live the Singapore dream of buying a car and living in a private property. As such, I would think most people would aspire to upgrade to private properties from HDB flats once they have the ability to do so.
I am taking the path that is less travelled. I stay in a HDB flat at a good location and I do not own a car. I am saving up for a private property and looking at renting out my HDB flat to supplement the monthly instalments. Still waiting for ABSD to be removed and a good timing to enter the market.
By logical sense, those who live in HDB has very low likelihood to be "multiple" private property owners, if you mean "multiple" to be more than 1.
There may be still be such cases, but I can bet that the possibility is extremely small.
If you can afford 2 or more private properties (say on top of your HDB flat), what is the likelihood of you living in HDB flat (knowing that even if don't work you can still generate good rental revenue from the other property)? (This is assuming that the private properties are family-size, and the person has choice of choosing between living the HDB flat and private property)....
Furthermore, HDB flat rental yield is better than private property! I am imaging that if I have 1 HDB and 1 private (and can "afford" both of them without over-leveraging), then I think I will definitely rent out HDB flat (better rental yield) and live in private (to enjoy the quality of life)! :pig:
For your case, you should not wait until ABSD has been removed.
You should just decouple your HDB flat and be free to buy anytime (when opportunity arise) without the ABSD penalty (assuming you are buying your first private property)!
Opportunity wait for no one...... Don't think you have enough time to "decouple" before you buy your desired property at a bargain when you see one.....
Gotta agree with you on the above comments. I would say most, if not all, Singaporeans would live the Singapore dream of buying a car and living in a private property. As such, I would think most people would aspire to upgrade to private properties from HDB flats once they have the ability to do so.
I am taking the path that is less travelled. I stay in a HDB flat at a good location and I do not own a car. I am saving up for a private property and looking at renting out my HDB flat to supplement the monthly instalments. Still waiting for ABSD to be removed and a good timing to enter the market.
Back in Singapore since Nov 2015, discover a few hidden dragon at the workplace.
Statistics don't lie, only the one who use it lie or who don't know how to use it.
Just reported my Income Tax, 47K income got 2 PC and 1 HDB must be seow.
Hi, no matter how we repackage, 80-82% of the housing units in Singapore are HDBs and about 18-20% are private properties.
If this percentile (20%) contains multiple property owners, they eat into the statistic of the group, meaning there is a larger proportion of those within the 81st to 100th percentile that only owns HDBs.
It is a zero sum game.
What if this 81st and 100th percentile are already multiple property owners?? But choose to live in HDB?
Welcome back.
Hope you adapt well and everything has been kind to you. :)
Back in Singapore since Nov 2015, discover a few hidden dragon at the workplace.
Statistics don't lie, only the one who use it lie or who don't know how to use it.
Just reported my Income Tax, 47K income got 2 PC and 1 HDB must be seow.
I agree with Teddybear fully on this.
When Govt changes policy, they always have very flowery ways to explain it perfectly.
By waiting, there are a few risks to note for Dreamer888.
1. Missing the bargains as explained by Teddybear.
2. Removal of CMs - the game will change very fast from then. And we still have no clear idea which CM they might remove though everyone says ABSD.
3. Prevention or taxing of decoupling moves - such that decoupling gains in savings are offset by these taxes or prevention measures. If Govt can pursue controversial policies such as owning private cannot own HDB but not the other way round, they can also implement this kind of measures simultaneously with removal of specific CMs.
The worst combi for Dreamer888 might be to relax TDSR (however unlikely it seems) and tax decoupling moves. Or reduce ABSD by 2-3.5% and forbid decoupling unless fully paid.
But there might be other reasons that Dreamer888 has to wait. Hope for the best!
For your case, you should not wait until ABSD has been removed.
You should just decouple your HDB flat and be free to buy anytime (when opportunity arise) without the ABSD penalty (assuming you are buying your first private property)!
Opportunity wait for no one...... Don't think you have enough time to "decouple" before you buy your desired property at a bargain when you see one.....
dreamer888
19-03-16, 21:03
Yeah, I am aware that once ABSD is removed, the game will change quickly as people sitting on the fence may jump right into the market and might cause prices to rebound in the short term.
Hence I might really do decoupling as I have already fully paid up my HDB flat. I am still waiting to enter the market as I'm still saving up money for the purchase.
If I have a fully paid HDB, this is what I am going to do.
1. Sell the HDB and buy the biggest resale unit and Max the loan.
2. Use the cash out to buy.
Thanks, notice everything become more expensive only hair cut become cheaper, now got 3.80 hair cut and 300 plus hair cut.
Got 5 year MOP to serve if buy resale.
If no MOP I will also consider this option.
If I have a fully paid HDB, this is what I am going to do.
1. Sell the HDB and buy the biggest resale unit and Max the loan.
2. Use the cash out to buy.
Kelonguni is like a teacher not only patience but willing to share unlike some forumers who mislead and lied. I see a change in Bear Bear too . Thanks
Who is richer?
I know of someone, parents is doing business (staying in HDB), have 2 to 3 condo for investment, but in the end lost all the condos to the shares. One of the sons living in 5 rooms HDB flat at Little India, recently bought a private condo costing S$1m (floor area slightly bigger than his old 5 room flat), rent out his 5 room HDB for $2,800. Not clear about his son household income, but I think his occupation is a pilot.
Another one whom I know, husband and wife combine income is about $8k. Staying in an EC for >20 yrs and 4 years back, just manage to buy a mm unit (about S$600k) for investment with monthly rental S$2,100 (can only afford a mm unit, not eligible to buy HDB because staying in condo).
So is it true that HDB owners are poorer than condo owners, that's why HDB owners are eligible to buy condo and yet still can keep their HDB flat but condo owners cannot buy HDB because of the "sweeping statement", since you can afford to stay in a condo, it means you are rich.
For your case, you should not wait until ABSD has been removed.
You should just decouple your HDB flat and be free to buy anytime (when opportunity arise) without the ABSD penalty (assuming you are buying your first private property)!
Opportunity wait for no one...... Don't think you have enough time to "decouple" before you buy your desired property at a bargain when you see one.....
But can we decouple the HDB. I thought HDB needs to have a tie (unless divorce), like husband and wife or parents and adult children. I also thought of decouple my condo (so that my spouse is the sole owner), then I go and buy HDB but my agent told me that I need a tie to buy HDB. My son and daughter has their own house, I have no-one to tie with liao.
dreamer888
20-03-16, 11:43
But can we decouple the HDB. I thought HDB needs to have a tie (unless divorce), like husband and wife or parents and adult children. I also thought of decouple my condo (so that my spouse is the sole owner), then I go and buy HDB but my agent told me that I need a tie to buy HDB. My son and daughter has their own house, I have no-one to tie with liao.
Hi irisng,
Yes, I have checked with HDB and it is allowed to decouple your HDB flat. For your case, even if you decouple your condo, you can't buy a HDB flat as you need to form a family nucleus when buying one i.e. buying with your spouse or children or parents, provided they do not own any HDB flat or private property.
Hi irisng,
Yes, I have checked with HDB and it is allowed to decouple your HDB flat. For your case, even if you decouple your condo, you can't buy a HDB flat as you need to form a family nucleus when buying one i.e. buying with your spouse or children or parents, provided they do not own any HDB flat or private property.
Saw this guideline from hdb website.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1383797569233&pagename=InfoWEB%2FPage%2FArticleDetailPage&rendermode=preview
Not sure though if 1) the MOP will restart upon the transfer by way of gift and 2) if the proposed owners and occupiers need to reside in it for how long....
MOP will not restart. MOP considered as completed. Dues served.
But subject to SSD for 4 years.
Saw this guideline from hdb website.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/Satellite?c=Page&cid=1383797569233&pagename=InfoWEB%2FPage%2FArticleDetailPage&rendermode=preview
Not sure though if 1) the MOP will restart upon the transfer by way of gift and 2) if the proposed owners and occupiers need to reside in it for how long....
MOP will not restart. MOP considered as completed. Dues served.
But subject to SSD for 4 years.
oic...
In the guidelines for eligibility, it states:
"All proposed owners and listed occupiers must continue to reside in the flat when the transfer is complete."
So not sure to me if they can move out to private ppty and rent out the hdb immediately after the transfer of ownership to spouse. Also, if they are already staying in private ppty and had been renting out their hdb, after they did the ownership transfer of the hdb, do they need to move back to the hdb? I dun think so but the guideline sounds confusing to me.
Just want dreamer888 to clarify that with hdb. Otherwise although decoupling is approved but they still need to reside in the hdb.
I think that refers to flats that have not received MOP but was transferred. But MOP served means not subject to MOP conditions.
It indeed is confusing. Maybe even purposely so.
oic...
In the guidelines for eligibility, it states:
"All proposed owners and listed occupiers must continue to reside in the flat when the transfer is complete."
So not sure to me if they can move out to private ppty and rent out the hdb immediately after the transfer of ownership to spouse. Also, if they are already staying in private ppty and had been renting out their hdb, after they did the ownership transfer of the hdb, do they need to move back to the hdb? I dun think so but the guideline sounds confusing to me.
Just want dreamer888 to clarify that with hdb. Otherwise although decoupling is approved but they still need to reside in the hdb.
Well done folks! This is call healthy informative forum, unlike those rubbish talk rubbish.
To be fair, I also learnt a lot in the exchanges with the shifus here while I might not agree with them all the time.
Kelonguni is like a teacher not only patience but willing to share unlike some forumers who mislead and lied. I see a change in Bear Bear too . Thanks
I think that refers to flats that have not received MOP but was transferred. But MOP served means not subject to MOP conditions.
It indeed is confusing. Maybe even purposely so.
Take a look at this link. The second table. It is stated under the MOP has been met.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/living-in-an-hdb-flat/changing-owners-occupiers/transfer-of-flat-ownership/eligibility&rendermode=preview
Well done folks! This is call healthy informative forum, unlike those rubbish talk rubbish.
I agree.
Honestly, when has HDB been for any purpose other than for residence?
https://www.ecitizen.gov.sg/Topics/Pages/Renting-out-your-HDB-flat-A-homeowners-guide.aspx
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/renting-out-a-flat-bedroom/renting-out-your-flat/eligibility
Interesting options right?
Take a look at this link. The second table. It is stated under the MOP has been met.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/living-in-an-hdb-flat/changing-owners-occupiers/transfer-of-flat-ownership/eligibility&rendermode=preview
Honestly, when has HDB been for any purpose other than for residence?
https://www.ecitizen.gov.sg/Topics/Pages/Renting-out-your-HDB-flat-A-homeowners-guide.aspx
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/renting-out-a-flat-bedroom/renting-out-your-flat/eligibility
Interesting options right?
It started 3th qtr 2007. Before the date only fully paid HDB and MOP 10 years can rent out whole unit.
http://www.investmentmoats.com/budgeting/how-a-couple-rented-out-all-3-rooms-of-their-hdb-stay-in-it-and-borrow-to-pay-the-downpayment/
Loan all the way has its risks and potential benefits.
I personally prefer to at least pay up mortgage for 1 property to house one's family, anywhere on SG, any type (HDB or private). Not so aggressive in loans and potential gains, but this "insurance" cannot fail because at least one property is already fully paid up.
Decouple even better IMO. Even if one party "fails", creditors are unlikely to touch the safe party holding the paid up property. This is even more true with HDB.
Of course, with this strategy, one has to compromise on loan quantum per housing unit.
http://www.investmentmoats.com/budgeting/how-a-couple-rented-out-all-3-rooms-of-their-hdb-stay-in-it-and-borrow-to-pay-the-downpayment/
Hi irisng,
Yes, I have checked with HDB and it is allowed to decouple your HDB flat. For your case, even if you decouple your condo, you can't buy a HDB flat as you need to form a family nucleus when buying one i.e. buying with your spouse or children or parents, provided they do not own any HDB flat or private property.
I thought the rules of the HDB is that you are not allowed to occupy the HDB solely unless you are single (>35 yrs) or have children, siblings or parents staying with you.
For my case, I have been hoping that HDB will remove the rule and allow condo owners to buy HDB flat for their retirement. If not, I think the only choice I have is to sell away my condo if I want to stay in HDB flat or rent a HDB flat for own stay and rent out my condo. Some of the resale HDB flats is as expensive as private condo.
One of my good friends (single) in preparation for semi-retirement sold condo and rented a HDB in the outskirts.
Its a viable option as rentals are very low now. Then can apply for BTO when the 30 months reached.
I thought the rules of the HDB is that you are not allowed to occupy the HDB solely unless you are single (>35 yrs) or have children, siblings or parents staying with you.
For my case, I have been hoping that HDB will remove the rule and allow condo owners to buy HDB flat for their retirement. If not, I think the only choice I have is to sell away my condo if I want to stay in HDB flat or rent a HDB flat for own stay and rent out my condo. Some of the resale HDB flats is as expensive as private condo.
An old 2015 article: http://www.providend.com/can-we-retire-in-singapore/
Can We Retire in Singapore?
4th March 2015
Providend
General
No Comments on Can We Retire in Singapore?
Can We Retire Graphic
A common question posed to me at conferences and panel discussions is: “Can we retire in Singapore?” It seems that many Singaporeans are worried that they can’t.
So what does it take to retire in Singapore, or for that matter, anywhere in the world? We need to have 3 things (see diagram above):
1.A fully paid house
2.Medical expense insurance to pay hospital bills
3.Monthly income for all your needs
According to the department of statistics, more than 90% of the Singaporean households own their own homes and over 80% of our lower income households (those in the bottom 20% of income) also own their own homes. And by the end of this year, every Singaporean will have a basic medical expense insurance called Medishield Life. So that leaves one final part of the equation: will we have sufficient monthly income when we retire?
That depends on what is sufficient for us.
According to the department of statistics, the average monthly household expenditure per household member for the 21st to 40th expenditure quintile will be about $657 in 10 years’ time. And for the 61st to 80th expenditure quintile it will be $1,338. We can assume that the former are individuals with lower income and latter with higher income in their working years. This is a good guide for what you will at least need for a basic retirement.
The Retirement Plan
In our opinion, our retirement income portfolio must be divided into 2 portions. The first portion must give us a reliable income stream to give us a basic retirement. The second portion is meant to give us additional income for a better lifestyle, which we can get by investing in higher return instruments spread over a few buckets for drawdown at different periods.
One of the best instruments to give us a reliable income stream for a basic retirement is the annuity. It pays an amount regardless of market volatility and for life, to hedge against longevity risk. In this regard, the best annuity in Singapore is CPF LIFE. It has a very low issuer risk (it is from the Singapore government!), zero distribution cost (you don’t pay commissions to buy it) and yield the best returns (it is still guaranteed at 4% p.a. currently). When the recommendations by the CPF Advisory Panel are made operational, you will be able to buy different annuity payouts based on your needs and ability.
So how can you save towards these sums at aged 55? The best way is through your CPF contributions, of course! It is truly tax-free to save and tax-free when you take out. In addition, every dollar you put in earns a minimum of 2.5%-5% p.a. guaranteed. And with Budget 2015 just announced, it is now easier to reach these sums:
a.From 2016, CPF salary ceiling will be raised from $5,000 to $6,000. According to DPM and Finance Minister Tharman Shamugaratnam, this means an additional $60,000 saved at aged 65, if you are an aged 45 worker earning $6,000 or more today.
b.Workers aged 50-55 will have their CPF contribution go up by 2%. Those aged 56-60 will have their contribution go up by 1% and workers aged 61-65 will have their contribution go up by 0.5%.
c.Paying an extra 1% p.a. interest on the first $30,000 of CPF balances from the age of 55.
Even before the budget announcement, it is expected that among the cohort of CPF members turning 55 in 2020, 7 in 10 active members will accumulate enough CPF savings to meet the Basic Retirement Sum then. With these new budget initiatives, it simply means that more will be able to reach our retirement sums.
But the above may not help those low-income elderly who currently still fall short of having enough CPF savings to meet the Basic Ret irement Sum at 55. Their wages were generally lower in the past so the amounts set aside via the CPF were correspondingly less. These older member also had a shorter runway to benefit from the 1% extra interest on the first $60,000 of balances, introduced in 2008, and the Workfare Income Supplement Scheme introduced in 2007 which tops up the CPF accounts of lower income members. Their low balances may only give them a payout of say $200 per month.
This is where the recently announced Silver Support Scheme comes in. It is meant to help this group of people when they turn 65 and also people in similar situations in the future. With an average payment of $200 per person added to their own CPF payouts and perhaps, some giving by their children, they may still be able to retire today.
And if all these still don’t help, we have one more card: Since most Singaporeans own our homes, we can still monetize our homes to supplement our retirement income.
Over the years, our CPF has helped us own our own homes, fund the premiums of medical expense insurance through our Medisave and accumulate a sum to buy the annuity (CPF LIFE) that we need. I think the latest budget announcements further complete the picture, helping the lower income households and even those that may have low balances. I am therefore convinced that we can at least have a basic retirement. For those who are able, we should buy a better medical expense insurance to afford us better medical care. We can invest beyond CPF to give us additional income for above basic lifestyle.
But one final thought: A good retirement is not just about having enough money. It is also about living a purposeful life. So while you plan for the money part, do consider how you purpose to live the last phase of your life.
Christopher Tan is the CEO of Providend Ltd, a fee-based retirement planning firm & investment manager. He is also a member of the CPF Advisory Panel. The edited article was published in The Business Times Weekend on 28 February 2015.
Forget about the retirement concept. A lot of people dies in their 60s anyway. Just enjoy your life now. If you have property investment still under mortage, don't forget to get life insurance enough to cover the remain of the loan.
Very few people fear dying.
What is much worse is being sick but not to the point of death.
But if overly concerned about retirement, that does not seem the right way as well.
Plant the right seeds today for the right tomorrow.
Forget about the retirement concept. A lot of people dies in their 60s anyway. Just enjoy your life now. If you have property investment still under mortage, don't forget to get life insurance enough to cover the remain of the loan.
Very few people fear dying.
What is much worse is being sick but not to the point of death.
But if overly concerned about retirement, that does not seem the right way as well.
Plant the right seeds today for the right tomorrow.
That's right... overly concerned about losing job, about retirement amount doesn't seem right.
I would think the cpf + some savings or monetize a fully paid condo (and downgrade to a hdb) would be fine.
Very few people fear dying.
What is much worse is being sick but not to the point of death.
But if overly concerned about retirement, that does not seem the right way as well.
Plant the right seeds today for the right tomorrow.
You are right, when you get older and older and body start to give out signal, you will start to worry about your health. Unfortunately nowadays most youngsters never see the point. Thinking change as you get older, including money and health.
dreamer888
22-03-16, 10:49
Hi irisng,
When we talk about HDB decoupling, it actually just means moving the ownership from 2 lessees (in the case of husband & wife ownership) to 1 lessee and 1 occupier. So technically, nothing has changed except that the portion that has been originally owned by one party (i.e. CPF contributions) needs to be refunded to their account.
I am afraid HDB will never remove the rule to allow condo owners to buy HDB flats as HDB flats are termed as subsidised public housing. So if you can afford to buy a private property in the first place, that forfeits your chance to buy HDB flat.
So I always advise people that you should always buy a HDB flat as your first property (new or resale) as you won't have a chance to buy if you have bought a pte property.
I thought the rules of the HDB is that you are not allowed to occupy the HDB solely unless you are single (>35 yrs) or have children, siblings or parents staying with you.
For my case, I have been hoping that HDB will remove the rule and allow condo owners to buy HDB flat for their retirement. If not, I think the only choice I have is to sell away my condo if I want to stay in HDB flat or rent a HDB flat for own stay and rent out my condo. Some of the resale HDB flats is as expensive as private condo.
dreamer888
22-03-16, 11:29
oic...
In the guidelines for eligibility, it states:
"All proposed owners and listed occupiers must continue to reside in the flat when the transfer is complete."
So not sure to me if they can move out to private ppty and rent out the hdb immediately after the transfer of ownership to spouse. Also, if they are already staying in private ppty and had been renting out their hdb, after they did the ownership transfer of the hdb, do they need to move back to the hdb? I dun think so but the guideline sounds confusing to me.
Just want dreamer888 to clarify that with hdb. Otherwise although decoupling is approved but they still need to reside in the hdb.
Hi Ilikeu,
There is no mention of any ruling that requires the owners to reside in the HDB flat upon decoupling. The usual rule applies, i.e. MOP to be fulfilled, before the HDB flat can be fully let out and the eligibility to purchase a private property.
Hi irisng,
When we talk about HDB decoupling, it actually just means moving the ownership from 2 lessees (in the case of husband & wife ownership) to 1 lessee and 1 occupier. So technically, nothing has changed except that the portion that has been originally owned by one party (i.e. CPF contributions) needs to be refunded to their account.
I am afraid HDB will never remove the rule to allow condo owners to buy HDB flats as HDB flats are termed as subsidised public housing. So if you can afford to buy a private property in the first place, that forfeits your chance to buy HDB flat.
So I always advise people that you should always buy a HDB flat as your first property (new or resale) as you won't have a chance to buy if you have bought a pte property.
It is just the timing. About <4 years back. If I'm not wrong, private condo owners are allowed to buy resale HDB flats. Actually, during that time, I was looking for a resale HDB unit, then few days later, this cooling measure (ie private condo owners are not allowed to buy HDB flat) came in, sign.... is all timing and luck. That's why I was hoping that govt can remove this measure. If I sell my condo, how long I have to wait to buy a resale HDB flat?
Hi Iris, you can buy resale flat today and sell your condo in half a years' time.
You cannot buy new BTO though unless you sell the condo and not own anything for 30 months.
It is just the timing. About <4 years back. If I'm not wrong, private condo owners are allowed to buy resale HDB flats. Actually, during that time, I was looking for a resale HDB unit, then few days later, this cooling measure (ie private condo owners are not allowed to buy HDB flat) came in, sign.... is all timing and luck. That's why I was hoping that govt can remove this measure. If I sell my condo, how long I have to wait to buy a resale HDB flat?
dreamer888
23-03-16, 11:19
It is just the timing. About <4 years back. If I'm not wrong, private condo owners are allowed to buy resale HDB flats. Actually, during that time, I was looking for a resale HDB unit, then few days later, this cooling measure (ie private condo owners are not allowed to buy HDB flat) came in, sign.... is all timing and luck. That's why I was hoping that govt can remove this measure. If I sell my condo, how long I have to wait to buy a resale HDB flat?
Yes, there was a time when pte ppty owners were allowed to buy HDB resale flats. Unfortunately, there has led to much speculative activities in the HDB resale market and hence the ruling to curb this move.
Kelonguni has answered your question on how long you gotta wait to buy a resale flat after selling your condo.
The intention to allow downgrade is a great one I feel.
It will serve retirees or those in personal hardships a chance to lower their expenses.
At the same time it is a reassurance for upgraders to upgrade if there are no immediate and foreseeable difficulties in financing the move to private.
Of course, it also stabilises prices and demands of resales HDBs.
Three birds with one stone.
Yes, there was a time when pte ppty owners were allowed to buy HDB resale flats. Unfortunately, there has led to much speculative activities in the HDB resale market and hence the ruling to curb this move.
Kelonguni has answered your question on how long you gotta wait to buy a resale flat after selling your condo.
In case there is any misunderstanding, current private property owners can buy HDB today (no need to wait) provided they sell all other properties they own in half a years' time.
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/buying-a-flat/resale/eligibility-schemes
"Ownership/ interest in property in Singapore or overseas other than HDB flats
If you or any person listed in your resale flat application owns a private property either locally or overseas, you must dispose of all private properties before or within 6 months of the resale flat purchase"
Can you buy private properties after that? Yes, serve the MOP of 5 years!
Now do we see one of the reasons for million dollar HDBs?
It is just the timing. About <4 years back. If I'm not wrong, private condo owners are allowed to buy resale HDB flats. Actually, during that time, I was looking for a resale HDB unit, then few days later, this cooling measure (ie private condo owners are not allowed to buy HDB flat) came in, sign.... is all timing and luck. That's why I was hoping that govt can remove this measure. If I sell my condo, how long I have to wait to buy a resale HDB flat?
In case there is any misunderstanding, current private property owners can buy HDB today (no need to wait) provided they sell all other properties they own in half a years' time.
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/buying-a-flat/resale/eligibility-schemes
"Ownership/ interest in property in Singapore or overseas other than HDB flats
If you or any person listed in your resale flat application owns a private property either locally or overseas, you must dispose of all private properties before or within 6 months of the resale flat purchase"
Can you buy private properties after that? Yes, serve the MOP of 5 years!
Now do we see one of the reasons for million dollar HDBs?
Easy money, after 5 years, HDB owners will be rich by few hundred thousands if they sell their flat.
Easy money, after 5 years, HDB owners will be rich by few hundred thousands if they sell their flat.
What one can do is also to apply for new BTO after the resale reaches 5 years MOP.
Then after the MOP for new BTO is served, one can also earn that few hundred thousands by selling!
But need a long term plan of maybe around 13 years. Not sure how private properties will fare in 13 years' time.
dreamer888
24-03-16, 11:55
What one can do is also to apply for new BTO after the resale reaches 5 years MOP.
Then after the MOP for new BTO is served, one can also earn that few hundred thousands by selling!
But need a long term plan of maybe around 13 years. Not sure how private properties will fare in 13 years' time.
The issue is there is always a salary ceiling out there for BTO flats. Unless your salary is quite low in the first place or has been stagnant over the years, it's hard to imagine someone can execute this gameplan.
Furthermore, when you sell high, you are likely to buy high too? Unless you really sell high and buy a cheap and small unit elsewhere and enjoy that few hundred thousands of profit. Or some pple do that and stay with their extended family.
It might be relevant to people who downscale their work or get paid less closer to their retirement or even after retirement.
13 years will bring a 60 year old to under 75, supposing someone kickstarts his or her downgrade plan purchasing the resale flat at 60. BTO can be bought at 65 years old with full cash. Or if a spouse has retired or stopped working. Not unfathomable if circumstances dictate so.
There are other ways to go below the ceiling if one really desires a BTO so much. :tongue-new:
The issue is there is always a salary ceiling out there for BTO flats. Unless your salary is quite low in the first place or has been stagnant over the years, it's hard to imagine someone can execute this gameplan.
Furthermore, when you sell high, you are likely to buy high too? Unless you really sell high and buy a cheap and small unit elsewhere and enjoy that few hundred thousands of profit. Or some pple do that and stay with their extended family.
dreamer888
24-03-16, 15:33
It might be relevant to people who downscale their work or get paid less closer to their retirement or even after retirement.
13 years will bring a 60 year old to under 75, supposing someone kickstarts his or her downgrade plan purchasing the resale flat at 60. BTO can be bought at 65 years old with full cash. Or if a spouse has retired or stopped working. Not unfathomable if circumstances dictate so.
There are other ways to go below the ceiling if one really desires a BTO so much. :tongue-new:
Haha, you are right. But if closer to retirement, people are more prudent and less likely to resort to such tactics in case it doesn't turn out to be in their favour. But I do agree with downgrading to a smaller and/or cheaper place in order to cash out on the ppty and utilize the funds for one's enjoyment.
proud owner
24-03-16, 23:36
It is just the timing. About <4 years back. If I'm not wrong, private condo owners are allowed to buy resale HDB flats. Actually, during that time, I was looking for a resale HDB unit, then few days later, this cooling measure (ie private condo owners are not allowed to buy HDB flat) came in, sign.... is all timing and luck. That's why I was hoping that govt can remove this measure. If I sell my condo, how long I have to wait to buy a resale HDB flat?
yes you are right ....
i was actively looking to buy a HDB in 2010 ( or 2011 ) while living in USA and owning private properties.
It was still allowed at that time.
I got my agent friend to 'view' on my behalf.
But the cobroke agent thought that my agent was trying to 'view and steal' his listing and refused to show.
Even when i made an oversea call from USA to Spore, the agent still didnt believe ...
in the end i gave up ... and then soon after ... the ruling came into effect... private prop owners cannot buy resale HDB while holding on to private.
The experience of Proud Owner and Iris only emphasises the importance of decisiveness and execution while the window is still open.
We have no way to ascertain when and how the game will change.
As of now, the market is really dead but the underlying demand supported by the 8-9 CMs and the income changes is huge. If there is an open shot and one misses it, then later on can only lament and repent (OK, regret). Of course, if no way to avoid the taxes, the only ways forward is to save more and wait for CMs to be removed, or to pay the taxes if there is a particular property one likes.
Always remember, the game plan is more important than just merely the prices.
Mostly ppty buyers or potential buyers are prudent and savvy.
yes you are right ....
i was actively looking to buy a HDB in 2010 ( or 2011 ) while living in USA and owning private properties.
It was still allowed at that time.
I got my agent friend to 'view' on my behalf.
But the cobroke agent thought that my agent was trying to 'view and steal' his listing and refused to show.
Even when i made an oversea call from USA to Spore, the agent still didnt believe ...
in the end i gave up ... and then soon after ... the ruling came into effect... private prop owners cannot buy resale HDB while holding on to private.
Wow, what a miss.
At that time, I was actually looking for Toa Payoh and Rochor Centre (without knowing that there will be an enbloc at that time). Timing just not right.
Mostly ppty buyers or potential buyers are prudent and savvy.
Oh, too bad, I based on my instinct but luck is not on my side leh. One morning, suddenly feel like buying a HDB in Rochor Centre, before I could find one, the cooling measures kick in few days later.
It might be relevant to people who downscale their work or get paid less closer to their retirement or even after retirement.
13 years will bring a 60 year old to under 75, supposing someone kickstarts his or her downgrade plan purchasing the resale flat at 60. BTO can be bought at 65 years old with full cash. Or if a spouse has retired or stopped working. Not unfathomable if circumstances dictate so.
There are other ways to go below the ceiling if one really desires a BTO so much. :tongue-new:
You are right. Some people even use the tactic of "false divorce" and when they get their BTO, they stay together. Why want to use such an illegal way, staying in fear everyday and occasionally still have to use one lie to cover another lie in case some one ask them certain questions.
You are right. Some people even use the tactic of "false divorce" and when they get their BTO, they stay together. Why want to use such an illegal way, staying in fear everyday and occasionally still have to use one lie to cover another lie in case some one ask them certain questions.
That is a very drastic measure. There are many other milder measures.
To go to the extent of risk and compromise of relationships is really too much I think.
In case there is any misunderstanding, current private property owners can buy HDB today (no need to wait) provided they sell all other properties they own in half a years' time.
From the horse's mouth:
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/cs/infoweb/residential/buying-a-flat/resale/eligibility-schemes
"Ownership/ interest in property in Singapore or overseas other than HDB flats
If you or any person listed in your resale flat application owns a private property either locally or overseas, you must dispose of all private properties before or within 6 months of the resale flat purchase"
Can you buy private properties after that? Yes, serve the MOP of 5 years!
Now do we see one of the reasons for million dollar HDBs?
Million Dollars HDBs is because of HDB not controlling the valuation, now resale price is delinked from BTO and Mature estate is delink from New Town.
That reason addresses the possibility to sell million dollar HDB (supply).
The other is what I am proposing, how come got demand - where does the money come from for people paying a million for HDB...
Million Dollars HDBs is because of HDB not controlling the valuation, now resale price is delinked from BTO and Mature estate is delink from New Town.
http://everythingalsocomplain.com/2012/09/09/1-million-hdb-flat-nothing-to-be-traumatised-over/
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/2016/1/116190/hdb-outlook-for-2016
In 2015, 110 HDB units sold for prices above $900,000.
http://onemilliondiary.blogspot.sg/search?updated-min=2016-01-01T00:00:00%2B08:00&updated-max=2017-01-01T00:00:00%2B08:00&max-results=1
When asked why such buyers would not look at the executive condominium (EC) market or mass market condominiums which offered comparable prices and come with facilities, Hee said: "ECs and condos do not have such a size and such a good location. They also have higher maintenance fees to service. Bishan is still the most favoured estate in Singapore and despite the cooling measures, there are still cash-rich buyers telling me that price isn't a problem for them and to just get them 'good' houses."
"The rich are not restricted from buying. They sit above the cooling measures. While we see a downward trend in other estates, Bishan is still attracting a lot of interest from well-heeled individuals who are looking for a 'good' house. Currently, the situation is that we are short of 'good' houses in the Bishan area. It is not a question of price or the cooling measures. These factors do not affect many of them. Overall, prices in Bishan should continue to inch up if not remain strong," he added.
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/hdb-flat-bishan-sold-record-1-05-million-102518289--sector.html
Who allow upsize HDB? Where is he now.
Million dollar HDB, what is the rental per month?
http://www.tnp.sg/news/31m-makes-coffee-shop-most-expensive-sold-spore
$31m makes coffee shop most expensive sold in S'pore
If you know why someone willing to pay 31 million, you will know why someone willing to pay a million for HDB.
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Public-Housing-in-Singapore.pdf
3. Resale Market
Up till 1971, there was no resale market for HDB apartments. If an owner wished to sell his apartment he had to do so directly to the HDB. The HDB would purchase the apartment at ‘the
original purchase price in addition to the depreciated cost of improvements’.
In 1971, the HDB created a resale market for its apartments. Owners were able to sell their units atmarket price to buyers of their choice if they had fulfilled the minimum occupation period.
Only citizens who did not own any other residential property, had a minimum household size of two persons forming a ‘family unit’, and with household incomes below a stipulated income ceiling, were eligible to purchase new or resale HDB flats.
In 1989, the income ceiling restriction was removed from HDB resale flats; the resale market was also opened to permanent residents as well as private property owners. HDB flat-owners could now also invest in private sector built dwellings. Single citizens above the age of 35 have also been allowed to purchase HDB resale apartments since 1991
3. Resale Market
Up till 1971, there was no resale market for HDB apartments. If an owner wished to sell his apartment he had to do so directly to the HDB. The HDB would purchase the apartment at ‘the
original purchase price in addition to the depreciated cost of improvements’.
In 1971, the HDB created a resale market for its apartments. Owners were able to sell their units atmarket price to buyers of their choice if they had fulfilled the minimum occupation period.
Only citizens who did not own any other residential property, had a minimum household size of two persons forming a ‘family unit’, and with household incomes below a stipulated income ceiling, were eligible to purchase new or resale HDB flats.
In 1989, the income ceiling restriction was removed from HDB resale flats; the resale market was also opened to permanent residents as well as private property owners. HDB flat-owners could now also invest in private sector built dwellings. Single citizens above the age of 35 have also been allowed to purchase HDB resale apartments since 1991
One more, in 2011, private owners are not allowed to buy resale HDB flat provided they disposed all their private properties. So once they disposed their private properties, they will have money in hand and thus can afford/willing to buy millions $ of HDB.
One more, in 2011, private owners are not allowed to buy resale HDB flat provided they disposed all their private properties. So once they disposed their private properties, they will have money in hand and thus can afford/willing to buy millions $ of HDB.
actually even if they didnt dispose the private properties. those with multiple properties can still buy HDB. Many buy it to stay so as to maximize the rental collection on all the private properties. So the Cash rich always have choices.
actually even if they didnt dispose the private properties. those with multiple properties can still buy HDB. Many buy it to stay so as to maximize the rental collection on all the private properties. So the Cash rich always have choices.
Agree that cash rich people always have a choice but now the new ruling measure won't allow private properties owners to buy HDB leh, unless they bought it before the ruling kicks in. But so far how many people are willing to buy >$800k of resale HDB flat unless they are really cash rich. Average people, I don't think they can afford it. So the possibility that I can think of is either :-
1) strike lottery or make from shares/investment
2) sold their private properties (no choice because want to buy HDB)
3) sold their existing HDB and top up the difference for the new flat
I know of someone, also sell away her private property, and bought a HDB flat to stay for old age. When a person has money in hand, they are more willing to pay, that is what I think.
Let's also consider the other extreme where people have to do what they need to do when and if the time comes.
When that (shit) really happens, there are resale flats of 300K to 500K (not 2Rm) for consideration as well, and especially in outskirts. Only people who have excess can look at resale HDBs and say whether they want or do not want the 800K flats. I firmly believe you are not in that state to consider this option.
Agree that cash rich people always have a choice but now the new ruling measure won't allow private properties owners to buy HDB leh, unless they bought it before the ruling kicks in. But so far how many people are willing to buy >$800k of resale HDB flat unless they are really cash rich. Average people, I don't think they can afford it. So the possibility that I can think of is either :-
1) strike lottery or make from shares/investment
2) sold their private properties (no choice because want to buy HDB)
3) sold their existing HDB and top up the difference for the new flat
I know of someone, also sell away her private property, and bought a HDB flat to stay for old age. When a person has money in hand, they are more willing to pay, that is what I think.
HDB still the best home for retirement if have good neighbors and community around ( $ cannot buy that peace and harmony too). The other perks like budget handouts, utility etc rebates help to lower cost. Don't drive car can save on car park charges. Estate renewal all taken care of by TC. Pte estate renewal is headache just like having an enbloc meeting also difficult to agree.
Agree that cash rich people always have a choice but now the new ruling measure won't allow private properties owners to buy HDB leh, unless they bought it before the ruling kicks in. But so far how many people are willing to buy >$800k of resale HDB flat unless they are really cash rich. Average people, I don't think they can afford it. So the possibility that I can think of is either :-
1) strike lottery or make from shares/investment
2) sold their private properties (no choice because want to buy HDB)
3) sold their existing HDB and top up the difference for the new flat
I know of someone, also sell away her private property, and bought a HDB flat to stay for old age. When a person has money in hand, they are more willing to pay, that is what I think.
Budgets handout for Conservation charges? Mmm, some how it looks like from left-pocket to right-pocket?
If TC can accumulate so much reserve that they can invest in mini-bonds, does it look like they have over-collected and should have just reduced the collection of Conservation charges instead?
HDB still the best home for retirement if have good neighbors and community around ( $ cannot buy that peace and harmony too). The other perks like budget handouts, utility etc rebates help to lower cost. Don't drive car can save on car park charges. Estate renewal all taken care of by TC. Pte estate renewal is headache just like having an enbloc meeting also difficult to agree.
Well, it could be a case of history teaching organisation or country a lesson OR worse history repeating itself.
The Lehman brothers scandal, mini-bonds, AAA ratings collateral and the world top companies Merrill, GM, BoA, AIG and even Citi could have become junks overnight over that black swan event if not for federal intervention. IMO, their greatest strength, TRUST in the AAA ratings, became the biggest mistake and weakness of all.
For Sg cases, at least the loss (I believe) was not at the suicidal level like what we see in certain western countries e.g. victims of Madoff Ponzi scheme. Is it acceptable that TC investment should incur a loss? of course not, but they probably made earlier gains leading to not anyone person proactively against it since that investment was making $. Everything fell out of the closet when that things got triggered.
The moral of story to me is ensure TC continue to provide good service. Reduction of TC $fees collection should be considered only if the service provided remains the same.
Budgets handout for Conservation charges? Mmm, some how it looks like from left-pocket to right-pocket?
If TC can accumulate so much reserve that they can invest in mini-bonds, does it look like they have over-collected and should have just reduced the collection of Conservation charges instead?
Actually, what TC do with their constituency's money is none of my business but frankly speaking, don't know why nobody ask the hard questions, like:
1) Why TC is acting like fund manager?
2) Even if TC has engage a fund manager to invest, why are they investing their town residents' money when that is not their job to do so? [Remember, TC's job is to provide good service and maintenance to their estate, NOT TO INVEST and MAKE MORE MONEY out of their reserves!]
3) If TC got so much money that they feel putting into Fixed deposits and saving/checking accounts still have too much money that are earning too low returns that they must invest, then isn't this a sign that they have accumulated TOO MUCH RESERVES and they should cut conservation charges collection instead?
4) When TC investment makes money, do the TC management get extra bonus? If not, why they so keen to invest the TC's money?
If you ever even manage a MCST in private estate, you will know that the only place to put your ESTATE's money is only FIXED deposits and saving/checking accounts!
Will you as MCST treasurer/chairman put your estate's money into mini-bonds or any other investment (other than FD or saving/checking accounts)??? :rolleyes:
If people like MCST council members who are doing voluntary jobs and DO NOT get paid know these simple rules, don't understand why the TC managers who are doing it as a full-time job and getting handsomely paid DO NOT even know such simple rules???
Well, it could be a case of history teaching organisation or country a lesson OR worse history repeating itself.
The Lehman brothers scandal, mini-bonds, AAA ratings collateral and the world top companies Merrill, GM, BoA, AIG and even Citi could have become junks overnight over that black swan event if not for federal intervention. IMO, their greatest strength, TRUST in the AAA ratings, became the biggest mistake and weakness of all.
For Sg cases, at least the loss (I believe) was not at the suicidal level like what we see in certain western countries e.g. victims of Madoff Ponzi scheme. Is it acceptable that TC investment should incur a loss? of course not, but they probably made earlier gains leading to not anyone person proactively against it since that investment was making $. Everything fell out of the closet when that things got triggered.
The moral of story to me is ensure TC continue to provide good service. Reduction of TC $fees collection should be considered only if the service provided remains the same.
Reasons may be plenty but can only comment
Point 1. They want to maximize returns for everything under their management, including funds.
Point 2. That's why society always need governance, reviews, check and balances, maybe a new kind of order.
Point 3. Or any excess or reserves should be centrally managed for greater good.... Small kingdoms with too much autonomy over large bounty tends to incur nepotism. Think latest budget include some investment gains from GLC which were not in previously
Point 4. If true, then it's time to light these practices up in public.
HDB still the best home for retirement if have good neighbors and community around ( $ cannot buy that peace and harmony too). The other perks like budget handouts, utility etc rebates help to lower cost. Don't drive car can save on car park charges. Estate renewal all taken care of by TC. Pte estate renewal is headache just like having an enbloc meeting also difficult to agree.
Agree on some aspects.
Upgrading is not meant for all.
If your shirt fits absolutely well, why change?
However, the shirt may not fit for all. There are good reasons to own multiple properties or to embark on private properties and one can't really own more than 1 hdb, just to emphasise the upgraders' group. The analysis is definitely useful for them.
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