Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? [Archive] - Condo Forum Singapore Property Review Mortgage Loan Buy Rent Sell Real Estate

cbsh38584

24-07-16, 13:48

Arcachon

24-07-16, 14:36

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/singapore/money-supply-m2

Don't know can outperform the printing of 10 Billion (10,000,000,000) in one year.

If Bank can loan me money to buy property I will still buy.

teddybear

24-07-16, 16:41

Better borrow lots of money from bank than to deposit money in bank (or CPF for that matter), because your money's value are just depreciating with massive printing!

However, most people are doomed by TDSR and can't borrow much anymore and with ABSD+TDSR it becomes not worth investing in another property and have no choice but have to deposit money in the bank (and the money become dead duck).......... Either way, most are doomed! :hopelessness:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/singapore/money-supply-m2

Don't know can outperform the printing of 10 Billion (10,000,000,000) in one year.

If Bank can loan me money to buy property I will still buy.

cbsh38584

26-07-16, 07:59

CPF is more than enough for retirement Planning if you manage it wisely - Starting pay $2500 @age25
=============================================================================
There are 3 type of min retirement sum as from 2016 Figure.

2016 retirement sum figure for BRS (80.5k) , FRS ($161k) & ERS ($241k)
2020 retirement sum figure for BRS (90.5k) , FRS ($181k) & ERS ($271k) inflation est 2.5%

1. Basic Retirement Sum(BRS) = $80.5k with 2/3/4 rm HDB pledged
Monthly payout for life@65 = $660-$720

2. Full Retirement Sum (FRS) = $161k (No 2/3/4 rm HDB pledged)
Monthly payout for life@65 = $1220-$1320

3.Enhanced Retirement Sum (ERS) = $241,500
Those who wish to put more saving in CPF life - optional
Monthly payout for life@65 = $1770-$1920.

Max contribution to your CPF for 2015 = $31.45k / yr (20% of your Salary + 17% employer + voluntary cash)
Max contribution to your CPF for 2016 = $37.75k / yr (20% of your Salary + 17% employer + voluntary cash)

Many of them are unaware of how their annual income + CPF adds up over 30 years of working (age 25 to age 55).

Starting pay $2500 (3% Salary increment yearly till age 55).Do nothing to your CPF acct
==================================================================
At age 25 - OA=$7.1k. SA=$1.9k MA=$2.5k

By age 35, OA=$112k. SA=33k. MA=41k

By age 45 - OA=$268k. SA=120k. MA=97k

By age 55 - OA=$479k. SA=354k. MA = $138k

** When MA (now call BHS) ceiling is reached ($49.8k) Excess goes to SA. But if SA (4%) min FRS ($161k) is also reached. MA (4%) excess goes to OA (2.5%)

NET CASH Income (take home pay) earned accumulated for 30 years of working (age 25 to age 55)= $1.3 million dollars very very more than enough
for the HDB BTO 4rm HDB flat $350k (income >$8k no HDB grant) . I did not include variable or performance bonus which range from 0.5 mth to 3 mths
& also your partner income whic may be also $1.3m if she/he has the same earning power.

If you have the job stability & the financial capablilty . Consider on How To Manage Your CPF Money by Shift all your money from Ordinary Acct to Special Acct as
YOUNG as possible. You will get extra >60k to 100k more with no sweat involved at all.Just transfering OA-SA every Year . It MUST BE DONE when you are young.

Shift CPF-OA (2.5%-3.5%) to SA (4-5%) at YOUNG age & start to transfer OA (2.5% to SA(4%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At age 25 - OA=$7.1k. SA=$1.9k. MA=$2.5k.

By age 35, OA=0 (vs 112k). SA=156k (vs 33k) . MA=41k

By 45 - OA=$85k.(vs 268k) SA=347k (vs 120k). MA=93k

By 55 - OA=$341k (vs$479k) @SA=$550k to 600k. (vs $354k). @MA=$100k - 135k

@ SA=550k to $600k depend on the CPF board yearly adjustment of the min sum retirement % increment. Range from 2.5% to 3.5%.

@ MA= $100k to $135k also depend on the CPF board yearly adjustment on the MA & your medishield life selection from Govt b2 to private A class
MA (now call BHS) ceiling is reached. MA Excess goes to SA. But if SA min sum is also reached. MA excess goes to OA

Remember, you are not voluntary CASH contribution in the CPF. Just only your 20% of your Salary + 17% from your employer.

================================================================================================================
I believe only the minorities have the financial capablity , determination & discipline to prorities their retirement need when young & transfer from OA
to SA to see the magic of compouned interest in their special acct. Young prefer WANTS 1st & ignore the NEEDS. if they mismanage the CASH & CPF,
they will be in trouble when they grow old. Low cash & low CPF.

I do not recommend to voluntary contribute cash into CPF when young unless you really have more more than enough cash either from your parent or you yourself.
Maybe when your reach late 40s & your children are age 21 & start working . You have extra cash. Can consider voluntary cash into CPF if min sum is met.
By age 55, you can withdraw all after meeting the min sum (161k). Eg OA=200k SA=201k MA=49.8k(cannot touch). U can withdraw all OA=200k + SA=40k
(201k minus 161k) if you chose FRS ($161k).

Since most of the young couple likely to marry late between age 30-40. Why not set yourself a tgt to hit your Special acct min $100k at age 35
(By age 35, OA=$112k. SA=33k --- Move 67k from your OA to SA (33k + 67k ) to increase your SA to 100k tgt.

Once your SA=100k is reached by age 35. You know that the BIG WORRY min retirement need is SETTLED & can concentrate to build your OA .
Any extra contribution to your SA is extra extra bonus.

$100k compounded 4% interest for 30 yrs. U will have at least 325k at age 65. A very basic retirement est 2.5k/mth at age 65 for life.
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

FYI, those wiives who decided to become a homemaker to take care of children & self employed . You better start to think now about your retirement as you have much lesser CPF for retirement. A umarried man or women. You are also need to plan early as MAID is the only person which you need to depend on when you grow old.

CPF: IT CAN BE DONE : Accumulate $1m in your CPF by age 55 with starting pay ONLY $2500 at age 25.
The best part is that you only use 20% of your salary + 17% employer contribution. No voluntary cash involved.

CPF Annual Limit

The maximum amount of CPF contributions that can be credited to an individual’s account in a year. It consists of both the mandatory contributions (employer’s and employee’s share) and voluntary contributions. Currently it is $31,450 a year. [With effect from 2016, it will be $37,740.]

CPF Ordinary Wage Ceiling

Ordinary Wages (OW) are wages due/granted wholly and exclusively for your employment in a month and are payable before the due date for payment of CPF contributions for that month. This would be your monthly salary, which may include items such as transport allowances and overtime payment.

The maximum amount of CPF contribution payable on OW is the OW Ceiling, which is currently $5,000. [In 2016, it shall be $6000]. For example, if you earn a monthly wage of $5,500, only $5,000 would attract CPF contributions; the remaining $500 would not.

Additional Wage Ceiling

Additional Wages (AW) are wages which are not granted wholly and exclusively for your employment in the month. These payments are usually made at intervals of more than a month. For example, your annual bonus, leave pay and incentives are considered AW.

The AW Ceiling is the maximum amount of AW that attracts CPF for the year, and can be computed using the following: $85,000 - Total OW subject to CPF for the year. [With effect from 2016, it the formula will be: $102,000 - Total OW subject to CPF for the year.]

Risk of Using this Method

The following are the risks involved:

First, this method assumes all money in the ordinary account is used exclusively for wealth accumulation. This means you cannot use the ordinary account for purchase of a property. You cannot use the ordinary account to service the housing loan.

Assuming a BTO flat of $400,000, the first 10% downpayment of $40,000 would have to be paid using cash. The remaining 90% has to be funded by borrowing. The monthly mortgage installment would be $1,633 at 2.6% for 25 years payable in cash. Assuming a MSR of 35%, it means the household income should be at least $4,666. Of course, if both husband and wife are income earners, this should not be an issue.

It is assumed all CPF rules remain static.The top-up from CPF-OA to CPF SA is irrevocable .

==============================================================================================================================
So you have to decide how you plan your retirement early especially when you start to work at age 23 to 25.
Investment in equity or property or FX or CPF or (The safest) + equity or ppty etc etc.

Pls dont use CPF OA to buy SG stock esepcially Penny stock. When you are young. Your IQ maybe high. But it is the EQ that will make
you lose money. Inablity to cut loss when a good trade turn bad.

Both my niece (age 28 to 30) who bought unit trust using CPF OA 30k in 2014. paper loss >25% in Jan-Feb16.. But now the paper loss much lesser.
They dont have the courage to CUT loss. Too painful. It will never able to beat the Special acct compounded interest of 4% for the next
30 yrs if they transfer from OA (2.5%) to SA(4%). The more they hold on to their unit trust. More loss opportunities to earn higher 4% SA
compounded interest. $30k compounded 30 yrs @4% is $97.3k

My another friend invested CPF OA $50k in HSBC unit trust from friend 17 yrs ago. Till now, the NAV is only $51k.
Look at how much interest he lost if he will be transfered OA to SA 17 yrs ago. ( 97k -50k = $47k). Unit trust gain only 1k for holding 17 yrs
against 47k if he transfer OA to SA.

Kelonguni

26-07-16, 11:45

What are your views regarding insurance Bro CBSH ?

CPF: IT CAN BE DONE : Accumulate $1m in your CPF by age 55 with starting pay ONLY $2500 at age 25.
The best part is that you only use 20% of your salary + 17% employer contribution. No voluntary cash involved.

CPF Annual Limit

The maximum amount of CPF contributions that can be credited to an individual’s account in a year. It consists of both the mandatory contributions (employer’s and employee’s share) and voluntary contributions. Currently it is $31,450 a year. [With effect from 2016, it will be $37,740.]

CPF Ordinary Wage Ceiling

Ordinary Wages (OW) are wages due/granted wholly and exclusively for your employment in a month and are payable before the due date for payment of CPF contributions for that month. This would be your monthly salary, which may include items such as transport allowances and overtime payment.

The maximum amount of CPF contribution payable on OW is the OW Ceiling, which is currently $5,000. [In 2016, it shall be $6000]. For example, if you earn a monthly wage of $5,500, only $5,000 would attract CPF contributions; the remaining $500 would not.

Additional Wage Ceiling

Additional Wages (AW) are wages which are not granted wholly and exclusively for your employment in the month. These payments are usually made at intervals of more than a month. For example, your annual bonus, leave pay and incentives are considered AW.

The AW Ceiling is the maximum amount of AW that attracts CPF for the year, and can be computed using the following: $85,000 - Total OW subject to CPF for the year. [With effect from 2016, it the formula will be: $102,000 - Total OW subject to CPF for the year.]

Risk of Using this Method

The following are the risks involved:

First, this method assumes all money in the ordinary account is used exclusively for wealth accumulation. This means you cannot use the ordinary account for purchase of a property. You cannot use the ordinary account to service the housing loan.

Assuming a BTO flat of $400,000, the first 10% downpayment of $40,000 would have to be paid using cash. The remaining 90% has to be funded by borrowing. The monthly mortgage installment would be $1,633 at 2.6% for 25 years payable in cash. Assuming a MSR of 35%, it means the household income should be at least $4,666. Of course, if both husband and wife are income earners, this should not be an issue.

It is assumed all CPF rules remain static.The top-up from CPF-OA to CPF SA is irrevocable .

==============================================================================================================================
So you have to decide how you plan your retirement early especially when you start to work at age 23 to 25.
Investment in equity or property or FX or CPF or (The safest) + equity or ppty etc etc.

Pls dont use CPF OA to buy SG stock esepcially Penny stock. When you are young. Your IQ maybe high. But it is the EQ that will make
you lose money. Inablity to cut loss when a good trade turn bad.

Both my niece (age 28 to 30) who bought unit trust using CPF OA 30k in 2014. paper loss >25% in Jan-Feb16.. But now the paper loss much lesser.
They dont have the courage to CUT loss. Too painful. It will never able to beat the Special acct compounded interest of 4% for the next
30 yrs if they transfer from OA (2.5%) to SA(4%). The more they hold on to their unit trust. More loss opportunities to earn higher 4% SA
compounded interest. $30k compounded 30 yrs @4% is $97.3k

My another friend invested CPF OA $50k in HSBC unit trust from friend 17 yrs ago. Till now, the NAV is only $51k.
Look at how much interest he lost if he will be transfered OA to SA 17 yrs ago. ( 97k -50k = $47k). Unit trust gain only 1k for holding 17 yrs
against 47k if he transfer OA to SA.

minority

26-07-16, 14:02

What are your views regarding insurance Bro CBSH ?

I invested in investment link insurance using CPF at a early age. I recently took a caculation. the return is ard 5.5% return on equity . but as with investment link insurance u need to start from a young age. the more savvy ones these days can just do own share investment i.e. ETF and buy a term insurance. I find that way the overhead is much lower and its cheaper and more flexible.

Kelonguni

26-07-16, 16:04

cbsh38584

26-07-16, 16:55

I invested in investment link insurance using CPF at a early age. I recently took a caculation. the return is ard 5.5% return on equity . but as with investment link insurance u need to start from a young age. the more savvy ones these days can just do own share investment i.e. ETF and buy a term insurance. I find that way the overhead is much lower and its cheaper and more flexible.

When you invest your CPF OA into investment link insurance (ILP). There is always a 3% sale (bid & offer) charge deduction when you buy your ILP unit trust.
To beat the CPF return, you need to time the entry or do the switching to income fund when equity is over value & switch back from income fund when equity is
under value etc. So Only a very few minorities beat CPF compounded interest rate return.

In the 90s, CPF board allows 60% of your CPF-OA for stock investment . But it has since reduced to 35% as CPF board realised that most SG retail investors are not
making $ using CPF OA. It affect their retirement planning.

cbsh38584

26-07-16, 18:43

What are your views regarding insurance Bro CBSH ?

Life insurance is used to protect the life insured in the event of death. The premium that you paid is split into two portions. A small portion of your premium will go to the participating fund of the insurer and the remaining portion will be used to pay the insurance protection cost.
Life insurance is a small savings and high protection insurance. Because there is a savings element in life insurance, it will have a certain cash value which is declared yearly as reversionary bonus by the insurer.

Term Insurance
Term insurance is a rather simple product. Term insurance is pure protection and nothing else. The entire premium paid goes towards insurance protection cost. Therefore, there is no cash value for term insurance. Term insurance can be used to cover for temporary needs. Age 65 or 75 or 80.

Buy term and invest the rest.
You will save some cost by buying term insurance. The second part of this statement is “Invest the rest”. You need to invest the rest. If a person is habituat a spender that spends the amount that you save from buying term insurance, then I would rather prefer you go get a life insurance.

Bought my 1st life whole insurance policy when I just start working in 1988, premium $231/year ($10,000 sum assured) which is a small amt for a start.
The projected non guarantee between 5.25% to 9.25% at that time. After 27 yrs, the actual return is 1.8% if I will to terminate now.
That mean I paid a total of $6237 for 27 yrs. I get back $8060 which is est 1.8% return.

So better buy term at young age & invest the rest either through a retail bond or saving plan etc etc.

Kelonguni

26-07-16, 23:24

Thanks for advice but the coverage seems very minimal in your case.

Life insurance is used to protect the life insured in the event of death. The premium that you paid is split into two portions. A small portion of your premium will go to the participating fund of the insurer and the remaining portion will be used to pay the insurance protection cost.
Life insurance is a small savings and high protection insurance. Because there is a savings element in life insurance, it will have a certain cash value which is declared yearly as reversionary bonus by the insurer.

Term Insurance
Term insurance is a rather simple product. Term insurance is pure protection and nothing else. The entire premium paid goes towards insurance protection cost. Therefore, there is no cash value for term insurance. Term insurance can be used to cover for temporary needs. Age 65 or 75 or 80.

Buy term and invest the rest.
You will save some cost by buying term insurance. The second part of this statement is “Invest the rest”. You need to invest the rest. If a person is habituat a spender that spends the amount that you save from buying term insurance, then I would rather prefer you go get a life insurance.

Bought my 1st life whole insurance policy when I just start working in 1988, premium $231/year ($10,000 sum assured) which is a small amt for a start.
The projected non guarantee between 5.25% to 9.25% at that time. After 27 yrs, the actual return is 1.8% if I will to terminate now.
That mean I paid a total of $6237 for 27 yrs. I get back $8060 which is est 1.8% return.

So better buy term at young age & invest the rest either through a retail bond or saving plan etc etc.

cbsh38584

27-07-16, 07:49

Thanks for advice but the coverage seems very minimal in your case.

My coverage for whole + CI is $350k. I bought AIA Universal life plan (legacy plan) in 2013 coverage US$1m.
Lump sum Premium paid is US$260k. I borrowed US$260k @ between 1.1% (2012) to 1.6%(now).Critical ( Breakeven)
year est 10-12 yrs time.

It is so much cheaper than my lady friend who bought a term policy (insured S$1m up to age 99 ) from prudential &
premium paid is S$9k / yr.

I bought CI term insurance ($431/yr - protection $171k) for both of my sons from prudential.

Kelonguni

27-07-16, 09:50

Power indeed. I din know insurance can borrow also. Really steady.

My coverage for whole + CI is $350k. I bought AIA Universal life plan (legacy plan) in 2013 coverage US$1m.
Lump sum Premium paid is US$260k. I borrowed US$260k @ between 1.1% (2012) to 1.6%(now).Critical ( Breakeven)
year est 10-12 yrs time.

It is so much cheaper than my lady friend who bought a term policy (insured S$1m up to age 99 ) from prudential &
premium paid is S$9k / yr.

I bought CI term insurance ($431/yr - protection $171k) for both of my sons from prudential.

cbsh38584

27-07-16, 10:38

Power indeed. I din know insurance can borrow also. Really steady.

My friend bought Tokio marine saving plan from CIMB. Projected return est 4%+ for 15 yrs.
He borrows SGD loan @ 1.6% from CIMB to buy this tokio marine saving plan.(LTV 85%).
Nett return >10% if the interest rate continue to be low . If the borrowing cost >2.5%. He will
reduce the SGD loan.

cbsh38584

27-07-16, 10:40

FYI, DBS SGD borrowing cost between 1.3-1.4%. Too much cash at DBS/POSB bank

HP65

27-07-16, 12:50

My coverage for whole + CI is $350k. I bought AIA Universal life plan (legacy plan) in 2013 coverage US$1m.
Lump sum Premium paid is US$260k. I borrowed US$260k @ between 1.1% (2012) to 1.6%(now).Critical ( Breakeven)
year est 10-12 yrs time.

It is so much cheaper than my lady friend who bought a term policy (insured S$1m up to age 99 ) from prudential &
premium paid is S$9k / yr.

I bought CI term insurance ($431/yr - protection $171k) for both of my sons from prudential.

Good sharing cbsh38584.

If you are cash rich, you can also overfund the UL policy which is what I did. Critical (break even) for me was yr 6th. I'm also banking on appreciation/ strength of USD. Back then it was in the $1.2s

I also bought your friend's policy, believe it's pruterm vantage? The return is approx 3x of total premium paid. My assumption is though it's 'term', I'm unlikely to live that long.

Kelonguni

27-07-16, 13:00

Thanks for sharing guys!

HP65

27-07-16, 13:08

My friend bought Tokio marine saving plan from CIMB. Projected return est 4%+ for 15 yrs.
He borrows SGD loan @ 1.6% from CIMB to buy this tokio marine saving plan.(LTV 85%).
Nett return >10% if the interest rate continue to be low . If the borrowing cost >2.5%. He will
reduce the SGD loan.

Tokio Marine today is not the same as TM of yesteryears (Asia Insurance)....do ask your friend to continue to monitor closely their yearly declared bonus. Just a gentle advice....and I also have policies with them.

chestnut

27-07-16, 20:12

Power indeed. I din know insurance can borrow also. Really steady.

This is for Universal Life. Say you put premium of 350k for coverage of 1 mil. So you borrow 350k and in the event in f death, payout will be 1 mil minus 350k = 650k. Interest slightly above 1% for US$ borrowing. You just need to pay interest. Say 1.2% of 350k = 4.2k.
You can then borrow 250k to buy US$ bond paying say 4%. Net payout = 4% minus 1.2% = 2.8% of 250k = 7k. Use the 7k to pay off the interest on the Universal Life.
You need to know what to do when interest rate goes north.... That's all...

In life, just plan worst case scenario and be prepared....

Werther

27-07-16, 21:13

In life, just plan worst case scenario and be prepared....[/QUOTE]

All so power here.

chestnut

28-07-16, 06:56

US bond typically US$200k.... Not 250. Sp net coupon payout (@ say 4%) = 2.8% X 200k = 5.6k.

This is for Universal Life. Say you put premium of 350k for coverage of 1 mil. So you borrow 350k and in the event in f death, payout will be 1 mil minus 350k = 650k. Interest slightly above 1% for US$ borrowing. You just need to pay interest. Say 1.2% of 350k = 4.2k.
You can then borrow 250k to buy US$ bond paying say 4%. Net payout = 4% minus 1.2% = 2.8% of 250k = 7k. Use the 7k to pay off the interest on the Universal Life.
You need to know what to do when interest rate goes north.... That's all...

In life, just plan worst case scenario and be prepared....

chestnut

28-07-16, 07:09

I personally don't believe in putting money in CPF. I actually used max CPF to pay for my investment condos. So I "draw" out the money. I do pay interest to CPF for the money drawn. But by the time I can draw out the CPF money, the interest is mine. I prefer to hold cash as cash can do more wonders. But you will need to know what to do with your cash. Cash can be used for downpayment of properties or any quick investment opportunities. Of course cash can be used squandering away on woman, cars, and many other "happy" things. Remember, the. Coin always has 2 sides. You need to know which side you are???? If you are the squandering type, please put in CPF. If you don't know how to invest, please put in CPF. But if you come into this forum, I believe you want to learn, so you decide which is a better investment. At least you will make a decision.

Everyone has a view and many are different. Different strokes for different people.

cbsh38584

28-07-16, 07:31

Tokio Marine today is not the same as TM of yesteryears (Asia Insurance)....do ask your friend to continue to monitor closely their yearly declared bonus. Just a gentle advice....and I also have policies with them.

]2015 was a difficult year for investments.
Our local insurance outperform better than the foreigner in 2015. But not sure for 2016.

Great Eastern Life@ 2.24% (2015) 7.08% (2014) 3.62%(2013) 9.76%(2012) 1.54%(2011) 6.58%(2010)

NTUC Income@ 1.79%(2015) 5.45%(2014) 1.63%(2013) 8.56%(2012) – 0.88%(2011) 5.90%(2010)

Prudential @ 0.20%(2015) 5.90%(2014) 5.20%(2013) 11.00%(2012) 0.20%(2011) 7.20%(2010)

Aviva @ – 0.53%(2015) 5.42%(2014) 0.19%(2013) 9.35 %(2012) 1.30%(2011) 6.63%(2010)

Tokio Marine@ -0.15%(2015) 6.41%(2014) 2.35%(2013) 10.57%(2012) ? ?

Kelonguni

28-07-16, 07:57

With the GIC and Temasek announcements of reduced gains to 4%, IMO it is highly likely they will make adjustments to CPF rates soon...

]2015 was a difficult year for investments.
Our local insurance outperform better than the foreigner in 2015. But not sure for 2016.

Great Eastern Life@ 2.24% (2015) 7.08% (2014) 3.62%(2013) 9.76%(2012) 1.54%(2011) 6.58%(2010)

NTUC Income@ 1.79%(2015) 5.45%(2014) 1.63%(2013) 8.56%(2012) – 0.88%(2011) 5.90%(2010)

Prudential @ 0.20%(2015) 5.90%(2014) 5.20%(2013) 11.00%(2012) 0.20%(2011) 7.20%(2010)

Aviva @ – 0.53%(2015) 5.42%(2014) 0.19%(2013) 9.35 %(2012) 1.30%(2011) 6.63%(2010)

Tokio Marine@ -0.15%(2015) 6.41%(2014) 2.35%(2013) 10.57%(2012) ? ?

teddybear

28-07-16, 08:58

As highlighted by others, Temasek's calculation of annualized return is using flawed methodology (according to the SCMP article on 17 July 2012, "there is a tooth fairy" in Temasek's 17 per cent annual total return gain (http://www.scmp.com/print/article/1007028/yes-dear-investor-there-tooth-fairy)..................) - because they seem not to have included subsequent capital injections into their annualized return calculation since inception.

So question then is: Is GIC using same flawed methodology as Temasek in calculating their annualized return??? :onthego:

If so, then the real return may even be lower, and it is worrying...........

With the GIC and Temasek announcements of reduced gains to 4%, IMO it is highly likely they will make adjustments to CPF rates soon...

Arcachon

28-07-16, 19:54

As highlighted by others, Temasek's calculation of annualized return is using flawed methodology (according to the SCMP article on 17 July 2012, "there is a tooth fairy" in Temasek's 17 per cent annual total return gain (http://www.scmp.com/print/article/1007028/yes-dear-investor-there-tooth-fairy)..................) - because they seem not to have included subsequent capital injections into their annualized return calculation since inception.

So question then is: Is GIC using same flawed methodology as Temasek in calculating their annualized return??? :onthego:

If so, then the real return may even be lower, and it is worrying...........

Don't worry uncle Sam already teach us how to print money.

teddybear

28-07-16, 21:11

But Uncle Sam is printing money that is used all over the world - the US$......

Unless they can also print US$, print S$ useless lah (not accepted universally in the world)! :hopelessness:

Don't worry uncle Sam already teach us how to print money.

Arcachon

29-07-16, 10:15

When they print we have to print else exchange got problem. 1billion in a year.

cbsh38584

31-07-16, 11:29

With the GIC and Temasek announcements of reduced gains to 4%, IMO it is highly likely they will make adjustments to CPF rates soon...

In early 2015, our PM announced that those 55 & above will receive not 1% but 2% for the RA acct.
1st 30k - 6% = $1800
next 30k - 5% = $1500
Above 60k - 4%

I am not sure whether they will make adjustment to CPF rates so soon when our PM just announced a
GOOD NEWS for those 55 & above to gave extra 1%-2% as mentioned above.

In the late 70s & ealy 80s, our parent bought their 1st 4rm HDB flat < $30k. Now it is worthed >350k to 450k
after > 30 yrs later. They should have no problem to retire as HDB allow a Lease Buyback Scheme (LBS)
They are eligible for the LBS as an additional monetisation option if they are from an elderly household living
in a 4-room or smaller flat. Through this scheme, you will be able to tap on your flat to receive a stream of
income in your retirement years, while continuing to live in it.

I am 100% sure that the today BTO 4 rm flat $300k will not shoot up to $3m in 30 yrs time. We are a developed
economies & growth rate will be 1-3% . Not 8%-12% in the 70s to 90s.

As you have said, OUR GIC and Temasek announcements a reduced gains to 4%. So what make you very sure
that you can BEAT & outperform our GIC & TEMASEK 4% return in long run.

CPF is one of the best tool for retirement planning. If we do not fully make full use of the compounded 4% interest
rate at young age. We may have problem in our retirement if somehow we SCREW our investment or habitutal
spender when huge liquid CASH is so easily avail at a touch of BUTTON in our BANK acct.

@IT CAN BE DONE@ to be able to Accumulate $1m in your CPF by age 55 to age 57 with starting pay ONLY $2500 at age 25.
The best part is that you only use 20% of your salary + 17% employer contribution to your CPF acct. No voluntary CASH involved.
At age 55. three CPF acct OA + SA + MA = One million dollars. Dont need to be a HIGH income earner to reach $1m in your CPF

But only the minorities have the financial capablity , determination & discipline to prorities their retirement need when young & transfer
from OA (2.5% - 3.5%) to SA (4% to 5%) to see the magic of compouned interest in their special acct.

Since most of the young couple likely to marry late between age 30-40. Why not set yourself a tgt to hit your Special acct min $100k at
age 35 by transfer OA to SA. Example By age U should have OA=$112k. SA=33k
Move 67k from your OA to SA (33k + 67k ) to increase your SA to $100k tgt.

It will be better if he/she can internal transfer up to the max ceiling of $161k for 2016 as ealy as possible if he/she has the financial capablilty
when young. Once the max 161k ceiling is reached. U are no longer allow to internal transfer from OA to SA. Your CPF-OA will still continue
to grow.

Once your SA=100k is reached by age 35. You know that the BIG WORRY min retirement need is SETTLED .You can concentrate to
enjoy your life style without any worry about your min retirement need @ age 65. Your SA will continue to grow even more SA>$100k if
you are still working after @ age 35.

SA @ $100k compounded 4% interest for 30 yrs. U will have at least 325k at age 65. A very basic retirement est 2.5k/mth at age 65 for life. http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm

richwang

31-07-16, 17:29

There is no need to adjust the rates, the payout of CPF life is controlled by the board.

teddybear

31-07-16, 17:38

Sounds good on paper, but reality is another story.......

You can go here and take a look (read the comments by Wilson Nugraha Citra), and people found that the CPF Life actual return that people will get even if they live until 86 years old is likely less than 1.94% based on current payout........... (http://www.investmentmoats.com/budgeting/retirement-planning/i-thought-cpf-life-annuity-gave-a-high-8-5-return-perhaps-i-am-wrong/)

Mind you, 86 years old is already the average age of women (for men is about 82 years old), and the actual return of 1.94% based on the current payout is MUCH LESS than the 3.5-4% that you were told you will get from CPF Life......... :hopelessness:

Before people get carried away by all the statistics and figures touted and thrown in your face, you better make a reality check, whether these figures are real or not......... :panda:

In early 2015, our PM announced that those 55 & above will receive not 1% but 2% for the RA acct.
1st 30k - 6% = $1800
next 30k - 5% = $1500
Above 60k - 4%

I am not sure whether they will make adjustment to CPF rates so soon when our PM just announced a
GOOD NEWS for those 55 & above to gave extra 1%-2% as mentioned above.

In the late 70s & ealy 80s, our parent bought their 1st 4rm HDB flat < $30k. Now it is worthed >350k to 450k
after > 30 yrs later. They should have no problem to retire as HDB allow a Lease Buyback Scheme (LBS)
They are eligible for the LBS as an additional monetisation option if they are from an elderly household living
in a 4-room or smaller flat. Through this scheme, you will be able to tap on your flat to receive a stream of
income in your retirement years, while continuing to live in it.

I am 100% sure that the today BTO 4 rm flat $300k will not shoot up to $3m in 30 yrs time. We are a developed
economies & growth rate will be 1-3% . Not 8%-12% in the 70s to 90s.

As you have said, OUR GIC and Temasek announcements a reduced gains to 4%. So what make you very sure
that you can BEAT & outperform our GIC & TEMASEK 4% return in long run.

CPF is one of the best tool for retirement planning. If we do not fully make full use of the compounded 4% interest
rate at young age. We may have problem in our retirement if somehow we SCREW our investment or habitutal
spender when huge liquid CASH is so easily avail at a touch of BUTTON in our BANK acct.

@IT CAN BE DONE@ to be able to Accumulate $1m in your CPF by age 55 to age 57 with starting pay ONLY $2500 at age 25.
The best part is that you only use 20% of your salary + 17% employer contribution to your CPF acct. No voluntary CASH involved.
At age 55. three CPF acct OA + SA + MA = One million dollars. Dont need to be a HIGH income earner to reach $1m in your CPF

But only the minorities have the financial capablity , determination & discipline to prorities their retirement need when young & transfer
from OA (2.5% - 3.5%) to SA (4% to 5%) to see the magic of compouned interest in their special acct.

Since most of the young couple likely to marry late between age 30-40. Why not set yourself a tgt to hit your Special acct min $100k at
age 35 by transfer OA to SA. Example By age U should have OA=$112k. SA=33k
Move 67k from your OA to SA (33k + 67k ) to increase your SA to $100k tgt.

It will be better if he/she can internal transfer up to the max ceiling of $161k for 2016 as ealy as possible if he/she has the financial capablilty
when young. Once the max 161k ceiling is reached. U are no longer allow to internal transfer from OA to SA. Your CPF-OA will still continue
to grow.

Once your SA=100k is reached by age 35. You know that the BIG WORRY min retirement need is SETTLED .You can concentrate to
enjoy your life style without any worry about your min retirement need @ age 65. Your SA will continue to grow even more SA>$100k if
you are still working after @ age 35.

SA @ $100k compounded 4% interest for 30 yrs. U will have at least 325k at age 65. A very basic retirement est 2.5k/mth at age 65 for life. http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm

cbsh38584

31-07-16, 18:01

]2015 was a difficult year for investments.
Our local insurance outperform better than the foreigner in 2015. But not sure for 2016.

Great Eastern Life@ 2.24% (2015) 7.08% (2014) 3.62%(2013) 9.76%(2012) 1.54%(2011) 6.58%(2010)

NTUC Income@ 1.79%(2015) 5.45%(2014) 1.63%(2013) 8.56%(2012) – 0.88%(2011) 5.90%(2010)

Prudential @ 0.20%(2015) 5.90%(2014) 5.20%(2013) 11.00%(2012) 0.20%(2011) 7.20%(2010)

Aviva @ – 0.53%(2015) 5.42%(2014) 0.19%(2013) 9.35 %(2012) 1.30%(2011) 6.63%(2010)

Tokio Marine@ -0.15%(2015) 6.41%(2014) 2.35%(2013) 10.57%(2012) ? ?

It happen to Temasek , GIC as well as insurance companies.
The bonus declared will also be reduced for all insurance polices if the investment return continue to be weak in the next few yrs.
Private annity will also be affected by the low return & need reduce their payout.

teddybear

31-07-16, 18:10

That is not material to what we are saying here.........
The thing is, we were told that CPF Life annuity payout is about 3.5-4.0% per year (if my memory did not fail me, correct me if I am wrong here), but actually when some people run a check on the figures touted based on the current payout, the real return even if you live till 86 years old is only like 1.94%, that is the problem..........
So who pocketed the other profit of 1.56-2.06% pa?

Anyway, Temasek claimed about 17% pa return and GIC claimed 6+% pa return, all so much higher than the 1.94% that CPF Life is paying out (and hence there is no risk to the 1.94% payout being cut, instead it should really be increased to 3.5-4% to back up what these people claimed)...... :GB_bonesrock:

For transparency of CPF Life account, it should be caved out as a separate account from CPF and have its own annual financial statements on incomes and payouts. Thereafter, when there are accumulated surpluses because of the low payout, the payouts should be adjusted upwards (In current form, it seems that if there are profits from the low payouts, CPF Board will pocket the profit?).

It happen to Temasek , GIC as well as insurance companies.
The bonus declared will also be reduced for all insurance polices if the investment return continue to be weak in the next few yrs.
Private annity will also be affected by the low return & need reduce their payout.

cbsh38584

14-08-16, 18:38

1044410444
10444
In early 2015, our PM announced that those 55 & above will receive not 1% but 2% for the RA acct.
1st 30k - 6% = $1800
next 30k - 5% = $1500
Above 60k - 4%

I am not sure whether they will make adjustment to CPF rates so soon when our PM just announced a
GOOD NEWS for those 55 & above to gave extra 1%-2% as mentioned above.

In the late 70s & ealy 80s, our parent bought their 1st 4rm HDB flat < $30k. Now it is worthed >350k to 450k
after > 30 yrs later. They should have no problem to retire as HDB allow a Lease Buyback Scheme (LBS)
They are eligible for the LBS as an additional monetisation option if they are from an elderly household living
in a 4-room or smaller flat. Through this scheme, you will be able to tap on your flat to receive a stream of
income in your retirement years, while continuing to live in it.

I am 100% sure that the today BTO 4 rm flat $300k will not shoot up to $3m in 30 yrs time. We are a developed
economies & growth rate will be 1-3% . Not 8%-12% in the 70s to 90s.

As you have said, OUR GIC and Temasek announcements a reduced gains to 4%. So what make you very sure
that you can BEAT & outperform our GIC & TEMASEK 4% return in long run.

CPF is one of the best tool for retirement planning. If we do not fully make full use of the compounded 4% interest
rate at young age. We may have problem in our retirement if somehow we SCREW our investment or habitutal
spender when huge liquid CASH is so easily avail at a touch of BUTTON in our BANK acct.

@IT CAN BE DONE@ to be able to Accumulate $1m in your CPF by age 55 to age 57 with starting pay ONLY $2500 at age 25.
The best part is that you only use 20% of your salary + 17% employer contribution to your CPF acct. No voluntary CASH involved.
At age 55. three CPF acct OA + SA + MA = One million dollars. Dont need to be a HIGH income earner to reach $1m in your CPF

But only the minorities have the financial capablity , determination & discipline to prorities their retirement need when young & transfer
from OA (2.5% - 3.5%) to SA (4% to 5%) to see the magic of compouned interest in their special acct.

Since most of the young couple likely to marry late between age 30-40. Why not set yourself a tgt to hit your Special acct min $100k at
age 35 by transfer OA to SA. Example By age U should have OA=$112k. SA=33k
Move 67k from your OA to SA (33k + 67k ) to increase your SA to $100k tgt.

It will be better if he/she can internal transfer up to the max ceiling of $161k for 2016 as ealy as possible if he/she has the financial capablilty
when young. Once the max 161k ceiling is reached. U are no longer allow to internal transfer from OA to SA. Your CPF-OA will still continue
to grow.

Once your SA=100k is reached by age 35. You know that the BIG WORRY min retirement need is SETTLED .You can concentrate to
enjoy your life style without any worry about your min retirement need @ age 65. Your SA will continue to grow even more SA>$100k if
you are still working after @ age 35.

SA @ $100k compounded 4% interest for 30 yrs. U will have at least 325k at age 65. A very basic retirement est 2.5k/mth at age 65 for life. http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm

Today Sunday times - CPF $1m by age 65
=================================
It is a no brainer that CPF compounded high interest RISk FREE is a good retirement plan scheme.

But sadly, not many people TRUST in our CPF scheme. Lock in, PAP become the opposition, Shift
"goal post " etc. It tool me 2yrs + to convince my friend who is quite financial savvy to transfer his
CPF OA to CPF SA. He hestiated. But finally he transferred it. Later, he regretted for not transferring
much earlier to enjoy the high compounded interest.

With the S$1m, the interest will be est > $30k. Every yr keep increasing due to it compounded effect.
I will be using the $30k interest to travel around the world with my wife when I am close to age 58-60.
Still a long way but I am very patience to wait for that day.

cbsh38584

14-08-16, 18:59

104441044410444

Today Sunday times - CPF $1m by age 65
=================================
It is a no brainer that CPF compounded high interest RISk FREE is a good retirement plan scheme.

But sadly, not many people TRUST in our CPF scheme. Lock in, PAP become the opposition, Shift
"goal post " etc. It tool me 2yrs + to convince my friend who is quite financial savvy to transfer his
CPF OA to CPF SA. He hestiated. But finally he transferred it. Later, he regretted for not transferring
much earlier to enjoy the high compounded interest.

With the S$1m, the interest will be est > $30k. Every yr keep increasing due to it compounded effect.
I will be using the $30k interest to travel around the world with my wife when I am close to age 58-60.
Still a long way but I am very patience to wait for that day.

Didi you notice recently that our GOVT has promoted AWARENESS of SDIC at heartland mall ?
Why do our GOVT trying to promote the SDIC awareness ?

SDIC - Singapore deposit insurance corporation. WE insure your deposits up to $50,000.

In the event a Deposit Insurance Scheme member bank or finance company fails, all of your eligible accounts with that member are aggregated and insured up to S$50,000. Trust and client accounts held by non-bank depositors are insured up to $50,000 per account.

richwang

14-08-16, 20:19

teddybear

14-08-16, 20:36

You are assuming that the CPF interest rate remains unchanged with a min of 4% in SA and 2.5% in OA.
However, isn't CPF interest rate supposed to be pegged to floating SG 10-year bond rate and the minimum interest rate will be removed? When will this new scheme start?

104441044410444

Today Sunday times - CPF $1m by age 65
=================================
It is a no brainer that CPF compounded high interest RISk FREE is a good retirement plan scheme.

But sadly, not many people TRUST in our CPF scheme. Lock in, PAP become the opposition, Shift
"goal post " etc. It tool me 2yrs + to convince my friend who is quite financial savvy to transfer his
CPF OA to CPF SA. He hestiated. But finally he transferred it. Later, he regretted for not transferring
much earlier to enjoy the high compounded interest.

With the S$1m, the interest will be est > $30k. Every yr keep increasing due to it compounded effect.
I will be using the $30k interest to travel around the world with my wife when I am close to age 58-60.
Still a long way but I am very patience to wait for that day.

richwang

14-08-16, 20:38

Let's use discount rate of 1.94%
Standing at the year when you are 65 and calculate the "current value" of your total payouts:

I = 1.94
N = 21
PMT = 21,240
FV = 0

Any financial calculator will give you:
PV= 363,511
http://www.calculator.net/present-value-calculator.html?ctype=endamount&cyearsv=21&cinterestratev=1.94&ccontributeamountv=21240&ciadditionat1=end&x=61&y=9

teddybear

14-08-16, 20:40

In this case, 85.x years old is the average age of female and so should be the study case for a female.

Yes, this is an interesting case and we would like to know what is the real return in this scenario (assuming a person lives till the average age of 86 years old and no bequest left)?

To support teddy, here is the Maths for the inputs:
Current value: $241,500
Current age: 55
Payout age: 65
Estimated payout: $1,770 - $1,920 monthly ($21,240 - $23,040 per year)
Life expectancy: 86
N = 86 - 65 = 21 (years)
Future value: 0

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-scheme

teddybear

14-08-16, 20:45

Wondering why you are calculating the PV?
PV should be known (since at 55 years old you have $241,000 and you are supposed to get 3.5-4% return till 65 years old).

What is unknown here is the interest rate / return for your annuity (from 65 years old onwards) if you live till the average age of 86 years old.

Let's use discount rate of 1.94%
Standing at the year when you are 65 and calculate the "current value" of your total payouts:

I = 1.94
N = 21
PMT = 21,240
FV = 0

Any financial calculator will give you:
PV= 363,511
http://www.calculator.net/present-value-calculator.html?ctype=endamount&cyearsv=21&cinterestratev=1.94&ccontributeamountv=21240&ciadditionat1=end&x=61&y=9

richwang

14-08-16, 21:13

And now back to age 55, to see what is the effective rates used between age 55 and 65.

PV = 241,500
FV = 363,511
N = 65 - 55 = 10
PMT = 0

Again any financial calculator will tell you:
I = 4.174%

http://www.calculator.net/finance-calculator.html?ctype=returnrate&ctargetamountv=363511&cyearsv=10&cstartingprinciplev=241500&cinterestratev=6&ccontributeamountv=0&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=53&y=2

richwang

14-08-16, 21:20

This is about right for the weighted average interest rate:
First 30k 6%
Next 30k 5%
The rest 4% (241,500 - 60,000 = 181,500)

To be exact
Weighted I = (30,000 X 6 + 30,000 x 5 + 181,500 X 4 ) / 241,500 = 4.37

richwang

14-08-16, 21:26

richwang

14-08-16, 21:33

Now stand at age 65,

PV = 370,402
FV = 0
N = 86 - 65 = 21
PMT = 21,240

Financial calculator tells you:
I = 1.755

http://www.calculator.net/finance-calculator.html?ctype=returnrate&ctargetamountv=0&cyearsv=21&cstartingprinciplev=370402&cinterestratev=6&ccontributeamountv=-21240&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=62&y=2

richwang

14-08-16, 21:34

My dear, teddy was nice to say 1.96%!

teddybear

14-08-16, 21:41

For those who are interested in the calculation, some kind soul has developed a Google Sheet to help you to calculate the figures (please click here!) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cs-hmBw0nspSRn4B3QfXwc4RDAFfc11mzegO5UrFIE8/edit?usp=sharing), and you can see for yourself (LIVE) that CPF Life really pays very low annuity return of 1.9% (or so) even if you live till 85 years old (for women)........ (You need to make a copy of the Google Sheet file before you can change the figures! To make a copy, you need to have Google Drive account and login to it. You can also download a copy as Excel .xlsx file).
If people tell you otherwise, you can show them how you calculate them and ask them to justify and prove the contrary (don't just empty talk and bullshit)........................... :grief:

And in case you are wondering why use 85 years old for women, you can see the statistics here, which states that life expectancy for Singapore women is 84.9 years and for men is 80.4 years! (http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth)

To support teddy, here is the Maths for the inputs:
Current value: $241,500
Current age: 55
Payout age: 65
Estimated payout: $1,770 - $1,920 monthly ($21,240 - $23,040 per year)
Life expectancy: 86
N = 86 - 65 = 21 (years)
Future value: 0

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-scheme

richwang

14-08-16, 21:59

Now, let's find out how much they should pay, using 4% as the rate:

PV = 370,420
FV = 0
N = 86 - 65 = 21
I = 4

Calculate
PMT = 26,403
(S$2,200 per month)

Arcachon

14-08-16, 22:07

I only know if you buy property, you pay 20% loan 80%.

Before the loan is fully pay, you buy another one and loan.

This way you are ahead of inflation.

1988 4 room HDB cost 83,000

1996 5 room HDB cost 225,600 (now 5 room asking 640,000)

2006 2 Bedroom cost 535,000 (now asking 1,450,000)

2011 3 bedroom PH cost 1,305,800. (now asking 1,500,000)

If bank can loan me money, I will still buy property.

teddybear

14-08-16, 22:16

How to make money all year round if you only know about investing in property and nothing else??? :sour:

I only know if you buy property, you pay 20% loan 80%.

Before the loan is fully pay, you buy another one and loan.

This way you are ahead of inflation.

1988 4 room HDB cost 83,000

1996 5 room HDB cost 225,600 (now 5 room asking 640,000)

2006 2 Bedroom cost 535,000 (now asking 1,450,000)

2011 3 bedroom PH cost 1,305,800.

If bank can loan me money, I will still buy property.

Arcachon

14-08-16, 22:17

Every month collect rental don't need until the end of the year.

The amount of money printing is getting worst.

Whoever believe in money is going to get a shock when they need it most.

Next month all BUS and TRAIN under the government.

Soon you will get shorter lease so that more can enjoy housing.

teddybear

14-08-16, 22:22

Rental?
There is nothing guarantee about rental, so the rental is a bonus and I won't even bet on collecting it every month non-stop.
Most important is that even if you have NO rental, how long can you last?

And for money you can't deploy in property, you better get better return than leaving them in the bank (as you said, "The amount of money printing is getting worst")! So, better learn to invest for good returns in other venues (other than properties)............. And Don't leave your money in CPF, they are dead-duck! :grief:

Every month collect rental don't need until the end of the year.

The amount of money printing is getting worst.

Whoever believe in money is going to get a shock when they need it most.

Arcachon

15-08-16, 07:35

Without bullets better don't go for war.

teddybear

15-08-16, 09:34

Guerilla warfare can be extremely profitable without any bullet, think you should learn to invest and make money outside of properties (which unfortunately most people like you have been priced out because of property cooling measures like TDSR and ABSD etc).

You people should learn to forget about profiting from property (which you can't now) and still make lots of money elsewhere.............. :tranquillity:

Without bullets better don't go for war.

Kelonguni

15-08-16, 10:54

People can make money anywhere or anyhow, or any way.

Property good, stocks also good. Borrow to invest, just think of scenarios like Swiber. If hedge everything carefully, its still ok overall.

The bulk of my friends keep cash and worship cash in bank. That is the only strategy that feels safe but is highly risky over the very long run.

Guerilla warfare can be extremely profitable without any bullet, think you should learn to invest and make money outside of properties (which unfortunately most people like you have been priced out because of property cooling measures like TDSR and ABSD etc).

You people should learn to forget about profiting from property (which you can't now) and still make lots of money elsewhere.............. :tranquillity:

amk

15-08-16, 11:50

Today Sunday times - CPF $1m by age 65

hmmmm ... I thought there is a cap to SA contribution ? there is no way you can reach 1mil by 55.

teddybear

15-08-16, 13:30

There is definitely a cap to SA contribution at FRS, which is currently $161,000(?) (as far as I know).
Is there a cap to CPF OA? Even if there isn't, the return is only 2.5% on CPF OA, too little to be of any use........ :ashamed1:
So the article is misleading perhaps?
There is no problem to hit $1M in CPF if people contribute most of these money from Cash top-up but definitely not because they contribute small amount of money into CPF and CPF give them superb returns to help them to achieve $1M (which seems to be the story the writer is trying to sell?)

However, this is not to say that CPF or the government short-change people because hei, 2.5% is still a good rate for people who don't know how to invest! For these people, they should be grateful! :surprise:

For those who know how to invest, it is better to DIY (than leave their money in CPF) and more options and avenues for them to invest should be made available (instead of all those stupid restrictions restricting them from many investments which are available to them if they use Cash)......... :tranquillity:

hmmmm ... I thought there is a cap to SA contribution ? there is no way you can reach 1mil by 55.

Today Sunday times - CPF $1m by age 65
=================================
It is a no brainer that CPF compounded high interest RISk FREE is a good retirement plan scheme.

But sadly, not many people TRUST in our CPF scheme. Lock in, PAP become the opposition, Shift
"goal post " etc. It tool me 2yrs + to convince my friend who is quite financial savvy to transfer his
CPF OA to CPF SA. He hestiated. But finally he transferred it. Later, he regretted for not transferring
much earlier to enjoy the high compounded interest.

With the S$1m, the interest will be est > $30k. Every yr keep increasing due to it compounded effect.
I will be using the $30k interest to travel around the world with my wife when I am close to age 58-60.
Still a long way but I am very patience to wait for that day.

richwang

15-08-16, 20:14

Ok, teddy is right.
With weighted interest rate of
I = 4.37
PV = 241,500
PMT = 0
N = 65 - 55 = 10

By age 65, the
FV = 370,402

http://www.calculator.net/finance-calculator.html?ctype=endamount&ctargetamountv=363511&cyearsv=10&cstartingprinciplev=241500&cinterestratev=4.37&ccontributeamountv=0&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=67&y=11

OOPS, wrong interest rates used. Because the higher rates only applies to the first $60k, with the amount increasing, the weighted average rate will go lower than 4.37%. So the FV 370,402 is over estimated. Thus the annuity rate is under estimated.
We really need a spreadsheet for all the cash flows.

Sorry for this.
Richard

richwang

15-08-16, 20:26

Here is the catch: putting in $3,000 cash MONTHLY.

"Mr Wong will continue to transfer 100 per cent of his Ordinary Account funds to his Special Account this year and the next. In addition, he will top up his Special Account with $3,000 cash monthly during the same period."

http://www.straitstimes.com/business/invest/1m-in-cpf-by-age-65

teddybear

15-08-16, 20:55

You can use this Google Sheet to help you to calculate the figures:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cs-hmBw0nspSRn4B3QfXwc4RDAFfc11mzegO5UrFIE8/edit?usp=sharing

You need to make a copy of the Google Sheet file before you can change the figures! To make a copy, you need to have Google Drive account and login to it. You can also download this copy as an Excel .xlsx file for offline use.

Since 2015, the 1st $30k of the Retirement Account earns 6%, the next $30k earns 5%, and the remaining earns 4%, and this only applies for the period when you are 55 years old to 65 years old.
After that, as our calculation shows, even if a woman lives until average age of 85 years old, the return you get is only <1.9%............
So who claimed that CPF Life is giving you 3.5 to 4% return??? :scared-3:

OOPS, wrong interest rates used. Because the higher rates only applies to the first $60k, with the amount increasing, the weighted average rate will go lower than 4.37%. So the FV 370,402 is over estimated. Thus the annuity rate is under estimated.
We really need a spreadsheet for all the cash flows.

Sorry for this.
Richard

teddybear

15-08-16, 20:57

But there is a CAP of $161k (as of now) for contribution to SA account.
After that, whatever in excess of $161k in SA will be automatically transferred to OA account. :devilish:

Here is the catch: putting in $3,000 cash MONTHLY.

"Mr Wong will continue to transfer 100 per cent of his Ordinary Account funds to his Special Account this year and the next. In addition, he will top up his Special Account with $3,000 cash monthly during the same period."

http://www.straitstimes.com/business/invest/1m-in-cpf-by-age-65

richwang

15-08-16, 21:05

More than that, the monthly contributed CASH is eventually counted as part of 1M CPF!
I believe that is the biggest misleading!
I am yet to meet anyone with 1M CPF!

richwang

15-08-16, 21:08

The Google sheet has the same mistake of effective rate. We need to list the cash flow.

teddybear

15-08-16, 21:49

Oh I see, then I can give you the exact figure, FV = $368,284.49

Assuming PV = $241,500,
and the CPF-RA rate is 6% up to $30k, 5% for between $30k-60k, and 4% above $60k.
(The effective rate is about 4.2273%).

The Google sheet has the same mistake of effective rate. We need to list the cash flow.

Ok, teddy is right.
With weighted interest rate of
I = 4.37
PV = 241,500
PMT = 0
N = 65 - 55 = 10

By age 65, the
FV = 370,402

http://www.calculator.net/finance-calculator.html?ctype=endamount&ctargetamountv=363511&cyearsv=10&cstartingprinciplev=241500&cinterestratev=4.37&ccontributeamountv=0&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=67&y=11

amk

16-08-16, 15:25

More than that, the monthly contributed CASH is eventually counted as part of 1M CPF!
I believe that is the biggest misleading!
I am yet to meet anyone with 1M CPF!

1M in CPF is doable. not that hard. The maximum contribution you can put in CPF a year, either via employment income, or voluntary contribution, is 6k * 17 * 37% = 37.7k. This the max of "ordinary wage" + "additional wage". (So in aggregate it is about 3k a month, max). If your 1st pay check is >6k and you get at least 5 month bonus yearly, then well before 20 years of working you will get >1M easily. )

I said 1M in CPF *SA* is impossible. because any amount in excess of minimum sum goes back to OA. The "minimum sum" is also the "maximum sum". With 160k from day 1 compound even at 5% for 25yrs you get about 500k only. More over, you dun get 160k in SA at day 1. Contribution towards SA has a yearly cap, in same contribution % proportion, from the cap above. And once SA reach minimum sum, you cannot do any voluntary contribution to it.

The article talks about "in addition, monthly cash voluntary contribution of 3k". that's nonsense. The maximum amount you can put in a year is only 37k plus. 3k cash monthly is already 36k. So his employment mandatory CPF contribution *per year* is only $1,700 ??

I think this article is cooked up one.

cbsh38584

16-08-16, 16:13

1M in CPF is doable. not that hard. The maximum contribution you can put in CPF a year, either via employment income, or voluntary contribution, is 6k * 17 * 37% = 37.7k. This the max of "ordinary wage" + "additional wage". (So in aggregate it is about 3k a month, max). If your 1st pay check is >6k and you get at least 5 month bonus yearly, then well before 20 years of working you will get >1M easily. )

I said 1M in CPF *SA* is impossible. because any amount in excess of minimum sum goes back to OA. The "minimum sum" is also the "maximum sum". With 160k from day 1 compound even at 5% for 25yrs you get about 500k only. More over, you dun get 160k in SA at day 1. Contribution towards SA has a yearly cap, in same contribution % proportion, from the cap above. And once SA reach minimum sum, you cannot do any voluntary contribution to it.

The article talks about "in addition, monthly cash voluntary contribution of 3k". that's nonsense. The maximum amount you can put in a year is only 37k plus. 3k cash monthly is already 36k. So his employment mandatory CPF contribution *per year* is only $1,700 ??

I think this article is cooked up one.

Not possible now (2016) due to the Full retirement sum ceiling of 161k for 2016.
By 2020, the full retirement sum will be 181k (CPF board est figure) base on 2.5% inflation.

By 2029, the full retirement sum will go up to 221k base on 2.5% inflation.
If the father is rich & have the excess money. He will start to voluntary contribute in his son (or daughter) at early age of 3 yrs old.
By the time , his children reach age 18, the son will have a full control of his CPF & start to transfer to the max $221k. full retirement sum ceiling (2029)

So by age 55 (37 yrs later from age 18) , his special acct of 221k (age18) will become $1.015million .
40kX5% compounded for 27 yrs = $243k
181k X4% compounded for 27 yrs = $772k
Total $1.015 milllion in his special acct.

Possible if CPF-SA interest rate remain the same for the next 40 yrs ...

Kelonguni

16-08-16, 16:15

Luckily the parent transfer to child is into SA. If into OA, property prices will go sky high later on.

Not possible now (2016) due to the Full retirement sum ceiling of 161k for 2016.
By 2020, the full retirement sum will be 181k (CPF board est figure) base on 2.5% inflation.

By 2029, the full retirement sum will go up to 221k base on 2.5% inflation.
If the father is rich & have the excess money. He will start to voluntary contribute in his son (or daughter) at early age of 3 yrs old.
By the time , his children reach age 18, the son will have a full control of his CPF & start to transfer to the max $221k. full retirement sum ceiling (2029)

So by age 55 (37 yrs later from age 18) , his special acct of 221k (age18) will become $1.015million .
40kX5% compounded for 27 yrs = $243k
181k X4% compounded for 27 yrs = $772k
Total $1.015 milllion in his special acct.

Possible if CPF-SA interest rate remain the same for the next 40 yrs ...

cbsh38584

16-08-16, 16:18

cbsh38584

16-08-16, 16:20

Luckily the parent transfer to child is into SA. If into OA, property prices will go sky high later on.

Only 221k at age 18 & 37 years later is $1.015m
Do it concurrently. Property + CPF + fixed income + global ETF etc

chestnut

16-08-16, 18:42

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/FAQ/schemes/other-matters/cpf-contribution-for-employees

There is no minimum age to qualify for CPF contributions. As long as you are a Singapore Citizen or Singapore Permanent Resident and are employed under a contract of service, CPF is payable at the prevailing rates.

Not possible now (2016) due to the Full retirement sum ceiling of 161k for 2016.
By 2020, the full retirement sum will be 181k (CPF board est figure) base on 2.5% inflation.

By 2029, the full retirement sum will go up to 221k base on 2.5% inflation.
If the father is rich & have the excess money. He will start to voluntary contribute in his son (or daughter) at early age of 3 yrs old.
By the time , his children reach age 18, the son will have a full control of his CPF & start to transfer to the max $221k. full retirement sum ceiling (2029)

So by age 55 (37 yrs later from age 18) , his special acct of 221k (age18) will become $1.015million .
40kX5% compounded for 27 yrs = $243k
181k X4% compounded for 27 yrs = $772k
Total $1.015 milllion in his special acct.

Possible if CPF-SA interest rate remain the same for the next 40 yrs ...

richwang

16-08-16, 21:07

40 years later to just have 1M? That's a no brainier.

Arcachon

16-08-16, 21:44

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/jq7575/hdb-3.jpg

cbsh38584

17-08-16, 07:18

Not possible now (2016) due to the Full retirement sum ceiling of 161k for 2016.
By 2020, the full retirement sum will be 181k (CPF board est figure) base on 2.5% inflation.

By 2029, the full retirement sum will go up to 221k base on 2.5% inflation.
If the father is rich & have the excess money. He will start to voluntary contribute in his son (or daughter) at early age of 3 yrs old.
By the time , his children reach age 18, the son will have a full control of his CPF & start to transfer to the max $221k. full retirement sum ceiling (2029)

So by age 55 (37 yrs later from age 18) , his special acct of 221k (age18) will become $1.015million .
40kX5% compounded for 27 yrs = $243k
181k X4% compounded for 27 yrs = $772k
Total $1.015 milllion in his special acct.

Possible if CPF-SA interest rate remain the same for the next 40 yrs ...

Baby bonus ($8000) + CPF Medisave acct 4% ($4000)
==========================================
The Baby Bonus cash gift will be increased by $2,000 (from $6000 to $8000), and will be given out between the first 12 and 18 months after a child's birth.

The Medisave grant for newborns will also be raised by $1,000 (from $3000 to $4000) to a total of $4,000, which will help pay for their Medishield Life premiums
and other medical expenses.

When you open a child development account (CDA) & top up $8000 (given 15 yrs to top up) . Govt will also match $8000 & deposit into
your Childen development account (CDA) . So total amt is $16000 earning 2.5%.You can use the savings in the CDA to pay for educational
and healthcare expenses of all your children at the following Baby Bonus Approved Institutions.

If there is still balance in your children CDA acct when he (she) reach age 30. It will auto transfer to his (her) CPF-OA. I prefer to leave
untouch at $12000(old baby bonus scheme of $6000). At age 30, his (her) CDA acct will grow to $25,000 & auto transfer to his (her) CPF-OA.

cbsh38584

17-08-16, 08:02

Baby bonus ($8000) + CPF Medisave acct 4% ($4000)
==========================================
The Baby Bonus cash gift will be increased by $2,000 (from $6000 to $8000), and will be given out between the first 12 and 18 months after a child's birth.

The Medisave grant for newborns will also be raised by $1,000 (from $3000 to $4000) to a total of $4,000, which will help pay for their Medishield Life premiums
and other medical expenses.

When you open a child development account (CDA) & top up $8000 (given 15 yrs to top up) . Govt will also match $8000 & deposit into
your Childen development account (CDA) . So total amt is $16000 earning 2.5%.You can use the savings in the CDA to pay for educational
and healthcare expenses of all your children at the following Baby Bonus Approved Institutions.

If there is still balance in your children CDA acct when he (she) reach age 30. It will auto transfer to his (her) CPF-OA. I prefer to leave
untouch at $12000(old baby bonus scheme of $6000). At age 30, his (her) CDA acct will grow to $25,000 & auto transfer to his (her) CPF-OA.

What a good baby bonus scheme !. From $6000 (own cash) to $25000 in 30 yrs time . Almost 5% return every year.
The new baby bonus incentive is now $8000 for 1st & 2nd child. The 3rd is $16000.

Arcachon

17-08-16, 11:36

Money printing.

cbsh38584

22-08-16, 21:44

http://singaporeanstocksinvestor.blogspot.sg/2016/08/1m-in-cpf-by-age-65-what-about-12m.html?showComment=1471316084996.

This guy CPF acct as follows in 2015 at age 45. He really reveal his CPF statement in his blog.
CPF accounts at the end of 2015:
OA: $418K
SA: $200K
MA: $50K

Assuming that he stop contributing to his CPF account from 2016, He should have at age 65:
OA: $652K
SA/RA: $438K
MA: $109K

Total by age 65: $1.2m in his CPF acct.

This guy CPF acct as follows in 2015 at age 54. He reveals his CPF statement
CPF accounts at the end of 2015 = $735,143

CPF OA interest earned = $12,174
CPF SA interest earned = $7,575
CPF MA interest earned = $1931
------------------------------------------------
Total interest earned = $21,681
------------------------------------------------

Graduated from NTU in 1987, age 54, retrenched in Feb 2004.

Stay in 3 rm HDB flat near Orchard, fully paid from CPF.

Total CPF interest earned in 2015 - $21,681.

He don't understand why there are people who are against CPF

Kelonguni

22-08-16, 22:35

Not to throw a wet blanket.

But 735K to anyhow buy a 1 bedder 1 year nett rent minus all expenses surely more than 15K? As high as 30K actually.

This guy CPF acct as follows in 2015 at age 54. He reveals his CPF statement
CPF accounts at the end of 2015 = $735,143

CPF OA interest earned = $12,174
CPF SA interest earned = $7,575
CPF MA interest earned = $1931
------------------------------------------------
Total interest earned = $21,681
------------------------------------------------

Graduated from NTU in 1987, age 54, retrenched in Feb 2004.

Stay in 3 rm HDB flat near Orchard, fully paid from CPF.

Total CPF interest earned in 2015 - $21,681.

He don't understand why there are people who are against CPF

teddybear

22-08-16, 22:43

I think people are against CPF for following reasons:

1) Money got locked up against their will (now min RA = $161k and min MA = $50k means total $211k!)

2) They can earn more than what CPF is giving

3) CPF Life giving return of <1.9% p.a. even if you live till average age (80 years old for men and 85 for women) and yet you can't take out your money despite such poor return given to you

4) (what else I miss?)

This guy CPF acct as follows in 2015 at age 54. He reveals his CPF statement
CPF accounts at the end of 2015 = $735,143

CPF OA interest earned = $12,174
CPF SA interest earned = $7,575
CPF MA interest earned = $1931
------------------------------------------------
Total interest earned = $21,681
------------------------------------------------

Graduated from NTU in 1987, age 54, retrenched in Feb 2004.

Stay in 3 rm HDB flat near Orchard, fully paid from CPF.

Total CPF interest earned in 2015 - $21,681.

He don't understand why there are people who are against CPF

teddybear

23-08-16, 00:08

Think FV = $368,284.49 is not quite correct because this was calculated where the interest was compounded annually.
By right interest should be compounded monthly, and hence FV should be = $$371,369.14.

Thus, if you live till 85 years old and obtain payout of $1,770 monthly, the return you obtain for your CPF Life (for women) = 1.37%

Thus, if you live till 85 years old and obtain payout of $1,920 monthly, the return you obtain for your CPF Life (for women) = 2.23%

It is not possible to calculate what return you would obtain if you can only live till 70, 75, 80 years old etc as CPF has not released the bequest figures (if say you die at 70, 75, 80 years old) etc for ERS. However, suffice to say, your return is likely to be very very low if you die before 85 years old (and possibly negative if you die at 75 years old or earlier).

Oh I see, then I can give you the exact figure, FV = $368,284.49

Assuming PV = $241,500,
and the CPF-RA rate is 6% up to $30k, 5% for between $30k-60k, and 4% above $60k.
(The effective rate is about 4.2273%).

teddybear

23-08-16, 00:23

If CPF Life pays 4% for average life span (85 years old for women), then the payout for ERS should be about $2,250 pm, so your figure of $2,200 pm is about there...........

Now, let's find out how much they should pay, using 4% as the rate:

PV = 370,420
FV = 0
N = 86 - 65 = 21
I = 4

Calculate
PMT = 26,403
(S$2,200 per month)

star

25-08-16, 03:07

Not to throw a wet blanket.

But 735K to anyhow buy a 1 bedder 1 year nett rent minus all expenses surely more than 15K? As high as 30K actually.

However now rental is quite low. Hard to get $2.5k per month for 1 bedder that is $700k. Need to pay maintenance fee, agent fee, property tax, income tax if u r still working.
Some tenants will not take care of your property likely damages. Still need to deduct some repair cost per year too. But overall after deduction still can have more than $15k if property is fully paid up.

Kelonguni

25-08-16, 07:59

cbsh38584

26-08-16, 09:59

The calculations in the housing market are very incredible.

Maybe about a few months to a year ago I shared how a 600k property max leverage rented out at 1,800 earns 6%. That same property is now valued at 733k but rent still at that previous level.

The valuation gains I already not sure how to calculate. May be time to ask to refinance and draw out some gains then see how.

Wife wants to sell HDB FLAT to buy a CONDO
===================================
Advise from a property investor .

i once bought a condo and held it for it for 15 years. i bought at $680K and sold it at $800K. For that 15 years, only four years it exceeded its buying price, that was the first two years and last two years. In between the property was a negative asset. That is, its value is lower than our bank loan and we could not sell it.

If discounting the final two years when the property recovered its value, i had to live with a negative asset for more than eight years. In that eight years, we forked out $12,000 for repainting and redoing the kitchen cabinet as it was infected with termite. So, property investment is not smooth sailing all the time. Especially if you are late into the game and miss the early-bird boat.

For that eight years, we cant do any investment as all our money was tied up in that one property. Imagine the opportunity cost lost! Hence, please consider carefully as not all property investment is pau jiak one.

i see history repeating itself. The property had inflated further to $1M and now it has regressed back to $900K. So if the market soften further, she probably ended up where she had started. I dont wish that but who knows...

Buy what you can afford and need.The cost of wrong timing can be excruciatingly painful.

Kelonguni

26-08-16, 10:26

The thing is which investment can guarantee won't drop in value. For some investments, it doesn't drop in value, it plummets to zero with papers that are worth less than toilet papers.

With bricks and mortar, in the worst case scenario of plummetting, you or family members can unlock its value via living in it or renting out.

This "property investor" has happily lived in it ("rented it") for 15 years! Even at rental value of $1500, it will be $270K "saved" drawing down only 15 years of lease, left maybe 70 or 80 years.

And with 70 or 80 years of lease, still can sell above buying price after being so thoroughly used. Any goods (cars, watches, clothes, anything) can rival this scenario?

"Negative value" is just a term for those who want their cake and eat it. If it happens (as it does sometimes in property), you gain double! If it doesn't happen, you pay for its fair use, and don't lose.

Wife wants to sell HDB FLAT to buy a CONDO
===================================
Advise from a property investor .

i once bought a condo and held it for it for 15 years. i bought at $680K and sold it at $800K. For that 15 years, only four years it exceeded its buying price, that was the first two years and last two years. In between the property was a negative asset. That is, its value is lower than our bank loan and we could not sell it.

If discounting the final two years when the property recovered its value, i had to live with a negative asset for more than eight years. In that eight years, we forked out $12,000 for repainting and redoing the kitchen cabinet as it was infected with termite. So, property investment is not smooth sailing all the time. Especially if you are late into the game and miss the early-bird boat.

For that eight years, we cant do any investment as all our money was tied up in that one property. Imagine the opportunity cost lost! Hence, please consider carefully as not all property investment is pau jiak one.

i see history repeating itself. The property had inflated further to $1M and now it has regressed back to $900K. So if the market soften further, she probably ended up where she had started. I dont wish that but who knows...

Buy what you can afford and need.The cost of wrong timing can be excruciatingly painful.

Arcachon

26-08-16, 20:12

Don't know can share my property investment experience.

chestnut

27-08-16, 07:32

Wife wants to sell HDB FLAT to buy a CONDO
===================================
Advise from a property investor .

i once bought a condo and held it for it for 15 years. i bought at $680K and sold it at $800K. For that 15 years, only four years it exceeded its buying price, that was the first two years and last two years. In between the property was a negative asset. That is, its value is lower than our bank loan and we could not sell it.

If discounting the final two years when the property recovered its value, i had to live with a negative asset for more than eight years. In that eight years, we forked out $12,000 for repainting and redoing the kitchen cabinet as it was infected with termite. So, property investment is not smooth sailing all the time. Especially if you are late into the game and miss the early-bird boat.

For that eight years, we cant do any investment as all our money was tied up in that one property. Imagine the opportunity cost lost! Hence, please consider carefully as not all property investment is pau jiak one.

i see history repeating itself. The property had inflated further to $1M and now it has regressed back to $900K. So if the market soften further, she probably ended up where she had started. I dont wish that but who knows...

Buy what you can afford and need.The cost of wrong timing can be excruciatingly painful.

Bought $680k
Assume the following :
Downpayment - 20% = 136k
Borrowed - 544k
Assume loan of 30 years.
After 15 years, loan amount is assume 300k. So paid up is 244k. (Technically should be 1/2).
Assume rental top up of 5k per year for 15 years = 75k. (Let's say rental cannot cover mortgage).
Rework cost 12k
Sold 800k

Now let's work it out:
Down payment - 136k

profit - 800-680= 120k
Capital repayment = 244k
Total gross = 364k

Expenses = 75k+12k+20.4(3% of 680k)+16k(assume he generous and give agent 2%of 800k) = 123.4k

Net profit = 364-123.4= 240.6k

Why never make money??????
For an investment of 136k, make 240k in 15 years???

If he hold for another 15 years, condo will be fully paid?????? By tenant???? Why did he sell???? Can anyone answer that question?????

Feel free to correct and edit any portion if you think the computation is wrong.... Or put your own assumptions....

chestnut

27-08-16, 08:36

Remember, don't believe everything you read. Do your own due diligence. Always question and search the truth. Even my example, don't believe and work it out yourself. Only then will you find the truth.

Knowledge is key😃😃😃😃

Bought $680k
Assume the following :
Downpayment - 20% = 136k
Borrowed - 544k
Assume loan of 30 years.
After 15 years, loan amount is assume 300k. So paid up is 244k. (Technically should be 1/2).
Assume rental top up of 5k per year for 15 years = 75k. (Let's say rental cannot cover mortgage).
Rework cost 12k
Sold 800k

Now let's work it out:
Down payment - 136k

profit - 800-680= 120k
Capital repayment = 244k
Total gross = 364k

Expenses = 75k+12k+20.4(3% of 680k)+16k(assume he generous and give agent 2%of 800k) = 123.4k

Net profit = 364-123.4= 240.6k

Why never make money??????
For an investment of 136k, make 240k in 15 years???

If he hold for another 15 years, condo will be fully paid?????? By tenant???? Why did he sell???? Can anyone answer that question?????

Feel free to correct and edit any portion if you think the computation is wrong.... Or put your own assumptions....

star

27-08-16, 11:26

Bro Chestnut, u need to deduct property tax for 15yrs, maintenance fee, if u r working u will receive a huge income tax because income + property rental income likely exceed $100k.

teddybear

27-08-16, 11:40

For the expenses, you still need to include:
(1) Agent fees for getting rental tenancy
(2) Property taxes
(3) Maintenance fees
(4) Repairs to make good the property for next tenant / existing tenant (eg air-con spoilt, re-painting, etc)
(5) Property rental income taxes
(6) Housing loan interest rate rises significantly
(7) 15 years is 1.5 property cycle and if this property is in OCR means may be 3-5 years no rental income or rental income drop by a lot?
(8) What if the property price stay stagnant (because 99-years lease reducing and the drop compensating against rise in inflation (so no price profit)?)
(9) (What else did I miss???)

May be you can re-work your figure to include the above (and specifiy loan instalment amount, rental per month etc) and still see whether there is profit or not? :dog:

Bought $680k
Assume the following :
Downpayment - 20% = 136k
Borrowed - 544k
Assume loan of 30 years.
After 15 years, loan amount is assume 300k. So paid up is 244k. (Technically should be 1/2).
Assume rental top up of 5k per year for 15 years = 75k. (Let's say rental cannot cover mortgage).
Rework cost 12k
Sold 800k

Now let's work it out:
Down payment - 136k

profit - 800-680= 120k
Capital repayment = 244k
Total gross = 364k

Expenses = 75k+12k+20.4(3% of 680k)+16k(assume he generous and give agent 2%of 800k) = 123.4k

Net profit = 364-123.4= 240.6k

Why never make money??????
For an investment of 136k, make 240k in 15 years???

If he hold for another 15 years, condo will be fully paid?????? By tenant???? Why did he sell???? Can anyone answer that question?????

Feel free to correct and edit any portion if you think the computation is wrong.... Or put your own assumptions....

Bro Chestnut, u need to deduct property tax for 15yrs, maintenance fee, if u r working u will receive a huge income tax because income + property rental income likely exceed $100k.

chestnut

27-08-16, 11:47

hahahahahaha, u work it lor. I busy enjoying my retired life.

For the expenses, you still need to include:
(1) Agent fees for getting rental tenancy
(2) Property taxes
(3) Maintenance fees
(4) Repairs to make good the property for next tenant / existing tenant (eg air-con spoilt, re-painting, etc)
(5) Property rental income taxes
(6) Housing loan interest rate rises significantly
(7) 15 years is 1.5 property cycle and if this property is in OCR means may be 3-5 years no rental income or rental income drop by a lot?
(8) What if the property price stay stagnant (because 99-years lease reducing and the drop compensating against rise in inflation (so no price profit)?)
(9) (What else did I miss???)

May be you can re-work your figure to include the above (and specifiy loan instalment amount, rental per month etc) and still see whether there is profit or not? :dog:

star

27-08-16, 11:51

star

27-08-16, 12:42

teddybear

27-08-16, 13:03

CCR condos selling at a big loss now is because of the effect of ABSD/TDSR etc property cooling measures that causes few buyers in the market (since majority of CCR buyers are foreigners) and that these owners have no holding power and then probably with lose/reduce in income and they have difficulty re-financing because of TDSR etc.

Anyway, soon OCR condo owners will face same situation as Singapore's economy is getting bad and more OCR owners will face lose/reduce in income and then face re-financing issues and will also have to sell at lower and lower prices.......... Just WAIT.......... :dog:

That why u see alot of ccr condo selling at a lost. Because ccr property tax and taxable rental income + salary may hit $150k per year. Some ccr msintenance fee r crazily high too.

richwang

27-08-16, 13:27

To support teddy, here is the Maths for the inputs:
Current value: $241,500
Current age: 55
Payout age: 65
Estimated payout: $1,770 - $1,920 monthly ($21,240 - $23,040 per year)
Life expectancy: 86
N = 86 - 65 = 21 (years)
Future value: 0

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Schemes/schemes/retirement/retirement-sum-scheme
PV = 370,420 at age 65
I = 4
FV = 0
PMT = 21,240

Calculate N = 28

That means you need to live until 65 + 28 = 93 years old, good luck!

http://tcalc.timevalue.com/all-financial-calculators/retirement-calculators/retirement-longevity-calculator.aspx?STARTBALANCE=%24370%2C420.00&WITHDRAWALAMOUNT=21240&ROI=4.000+%25&WITHDRAWALPERIOD=12&SHOWAMORTIZATIONSCHEDULE=on&COMPUTE=COMPUTE&CALCULATORID=RC07&HIDEFORMTAG=TRUE&TEMPLATE_ID=www.timevaluecalculators.com_1&PostBack=true#results

chestnut

27-08-16, 13:53

Have not add in deduction of property tax, maintance fee, rental income tax, agent fee yet... But if net profit is $240.6k after adding up all fee maybe still can make $140k net profit. Then it is quite good. Because 20% down payment is $136k and he make $140k which is more than 100% profit.

Do the calculations. U will realise that he made >200k. Hahahaha

If he hold for another 15 years, work out how much he would have made?????

cbsh38584

28-08-16, 10:09

Bought $680k
Assume the following :
Downpayment - 20% = 136k
Borrowed - 544k
Assume loan of 30 years.
After 15 years, loan amount is assume 300k. So paid up is 244k. (Technically should be 1/2).
Assume rental top up of 5k per year for 15 years = 75k. (Let's say rental cannot cover mortgage).
Rework cost 12k
Sold 800k

Now let's work it out:
Down payment - 136k

profit - 800-680= 120k
Capital repayment = 244k
Total gross = 364k

Expenses = 75k+12k+20.4(3% of 680k)+16k(assume he generous and give agent 2%of 800k) = 123.4k

Net profit = 364-123.4= 240.6k

Why never make money??????
For an investment of 136k, make 240k in 15 years???

If he hold for another 15 years, condo will be fully paid?????? By tenant???? Why did he sell???? Can anyone answer that question?????

Feel free to correct and edit any portion if you think the computation is wrong.... Or put your own assumptions....

I have 3 incomes from my investment.

Fixed income (Bond)
=================
Quite risky due to my portfolio having more non investment grade JUNK bond. It give me many sleepless nite
Evergrande & OLAM dropped >20% after Muddy water said that these companies have serious accounting
problem. But it survived & later sold at a profits.

I have one bond , Trikomsel default on the coupon. imagine Jpan softbank is one of the largest investor & yet
trikomsel default. It is clearly a INTENTIONAL FRAUD. I suspect Japan Softbank & the CEO are "PARTNER "
in this incident. No news till now. But I am ok as I have made S$1m since 2010 till End 2015 as I trade very often.
But now the bond is overvalue. Cant find a investment grade giving 4-5% on shorter tenor & borrowing cost is
getting more expensive.

Property invesment
===============
I am lucky to sell in 2011 for my D15 property which I made >1m within 6 yrs. I believe this kind of short term big profit
will be rare due to the TDSR & ABSD. It will be a very slow & steady gain if you have bought in a good location + good
timing. If not, you have be sitting at a loss for many years to come before it start to go up. Maybe 10 or 15 or 20 yrs later.
Nobody knows. Right now, rental yield is very bad.

One of my ppty is renting out which I bought from the developer in Q1 of 2011. I am lucky to be able to rent out since 2014.
Maybe I just accept whatever the tenant requested. I dont want to drag & wait for a better "GOOD" tenant with a " IDEAL"
rental. When the lease expire next yr. I have to go through the same frusrating process again. Is the tenant INDIAN, PRC or
Phillipno, "weird" S'porean family etc. In ealy 2011, A japanese view 3 times for my D15 for rental. I thought it will be successful.
But they did not offer me. My agent was very angry but I am ok.

My friend rented out to a S'porean family with children. He found quite weird but accept it. Many mth later, they just disappered &
loanshark started to splash paint at his HDB ppty. It was left 2 yrs empty as the loanshark was looking at "this address" not
the actual person who took the loanshark loan. Many police reports & finally it was over after 2 yrs of harassment.

CPF "AAA" bond
=============
This is one the safest place to park my money with NO SLEEPless nite. But it rquired long term wise planning at young age <30.
Some of my bond coupon rec'd is channelled it into my CPF every year. Too much cash on hand is no good as somehow whatever
reason (intention or unitentional) you will use spend it very quickly . CREDIT CARD with 36 mths ZERO interest , yearly expensive
holiday, change car every 3 years, upgrade to a better home., buy induction cooker , change Iphone every new launch etc etc.

I locked it in my CPF to prevent my wife or even me to spend money like propersity is perpetual & Bond investment is always safe.
My tgt to have S$1m before age 60. I also put $30k each to my son (4 & 7) into their CPF.

Both of son CDA (Child development acct) will not be used unless really need to. With 12k in their CDA acct. By age 30, their CDA
acct money(2.5%) will grow from 12k to 24k+ & it will auto transfer into their CPF-OA. It is a good return which I only use 6k cash &
30 yrs later, it grow to 24k+ with Govt incentive (6k cash injection).

In 2016, the baby bonus incentive is even better. 4k into the baby MEDISAVE ACCT(4%). Plus 8k cash into the baby CDA acct
provide the parent also put it 8k. which total 16k. If possible , try not to use it. It will grow to 33k+. What a good way to "EAT the govt".
The govt will let you "EAT them" but they want you to think long term & hold long term.

richwang

28-08-16, 10:26

No equity, no gold holdings?
By the way, where was your initial capital come from to make those 1M + 1M profit? From earlier generations? (like what you are doing for your next generation)?

cbsh38584

28-08-16, 22:18

No equity, no gold holdings?
By the way, where was your initial capital come from to make those 1M + 1M profit? From earlier generations? (like what you are doing for your next generation)?

As usual the 20% downpayment for my D15 ppty investment.

My bond portfolio consist of junk bond like mostly Chinese developers which pay 7% to 10% & some SGD bond
like banyan tree 6.25%, Lippomall 5,875% , Amtek 6.9% , Trafigura 7.5% , OLAM 7% etc from 2011 to 2015.
I did hold as high as S$4m+ with leveraging est 2m+. But not now. Only 2M+ I have traded almost 70 bonds since 2010.

I am now holding a Euro Carlye private equity fund (min investment amt) Euro300k since Dec 2006. The max holding
period for this Euro private equity fund is 10 yrs + 3 yrs extension. The fund will have capital call when there is a investment
need to invest in a new start up company. The capital call can be range from Euro $10k to 30k just like a ppty progressive
payment. One thing good about this private equity fund they can used the part of the fund distribution payout to pay for the capital call.

It has payout so far Euro$303k since 2012 till now. Current NAV price is Euro $165k still pending for further payout
distribution till 2019. Hopefully it can payout maybe >Euro $200k b4 the fund holding period end in 2019. It is quite
difficult to calculate the actual return.

I bought some phyical gold from UOB gold counter. But only $40k.

Currently, holding only Red chip H share (China life) at 20% paper loss. But I believe it should be ok to hold long term.
Yield 2%+.I am not so successful in my equity investment for the last 20yrs as the initial years was to PAY TO LEARN
to gain experience. But did not lose alot as I have the courage to cut loss if a trade turn bad.

My intention is to hold less volatile bond & to switch to equity when there is FEAR in the stock mtk. In Feb16, there is
a chance but I failed to strike when there really a extreme fear. This show that it is not easy to trade when there is a
real EXTREME FEAR . So I think I will be better off with fixed income with some risky taking into junk bond.

cbsh38584

28-08-16, 22:21

'Singaporeans don't realise what a good deal the CPF is'

The Central Provident Fund (CPF) system has its share of detractors among Singaporeans but, overseas, it attracts a lot of positive attention.

This puzzling fact could be because Singaporeans do not realise they really have a good deal, says finance professor Benedict Koh, a member of the advisory panel that studied ways to improve the scheme.

He tells Insight in a recent panel discussion: "I present papers at international conferences. You won't believe what people say: 'Can I invest in your account?'. 'Can foreigners buy it?'."

Many people here are not aware that a 4 to 5 per cent interest rate guaranteed by a government with a triple-A credit rating - the highest rating - is simply unique, says Prof Koh, who is associate dean of the Singapore Management University Lee Kong Chian School of Business.

CPF savings currently accumulate interest of between 2.5 and 6 per cent, including additional interest on lower balances as well as for older members.

There is a legislated minimum interest of 2.5 per cent per year on Ordinary Account savings, but the rate will follow the three-month average of major local banks' interest rates if that is higher.

For the July to September CPF interest rates, the latter was calculated from February to April and was only 0.24 per cent.

The interest rates on the Special, Medisave and Retirement accounts are pegged at 1 percentage point above the 12-month average yield of 10-year Singapore Government Securities, or 4 per cent, whichever is higher. But there is a limit to what people can expect from the system, because it must be a sustainable one, say Prof Koh and panel chairman Tan Chorh Chuan.

For instance, it is not advisable to extend the extra 1 percentage point interest on the first $60,000 of balances to a higher limit because, "eventually, someone would have to pay for that", says Professor Tan.

Prof Koh adds: "You cannot guarantee paying interest on a risk-free asset that is permanently higher than the market rates. For a country like ours with limited financial resources, it's not a prudent thing to do. I teach finance and my message in the first class is always 'There is no free lunch'. You cannot want high returns and not take risks, you will never find such a financial product."

For those who do have a higher risk appetite, but lack the time and expertise to actively manage investments, the panel recommended introducing a new Lifetime Retirement Investment Scheme to give members more options.

VIEWING IT AS A WHOLE

But if the system is so good, why do some people clamour to take as much money out of it as they can?

One reason could be that people tend to view the CPF system in fragments rather than as a whole retirement savings plan, says fellow advisory panel member Christopher Tan, chief executive of financial advisory Providend.

Looking at it in parts, people see that they put their money in when they are young, and when they want to take it all out at 55 they are unable to, and at 65 they try again and can withdraw only a portion.

In fact, it is similar to what people sign up for with conventional retirement plans offered by insurance companies, he says, where "you don't take the money out early, and when you reach the age of 55 or 60 if you don't take out a lump sum they pay it out as an annuity".

In CPF Life, money that is in the Retirement Account when members choose to start getting monthly payouts is used as the premium for the annuity that provides the payouts.

"So if people see that connection and they see this like a retirement plan, if you look at CPF like another provider and compare all the products between the providers right now, it's the best retirement plan you can find, really," he said.

cbsh38584

28-08-16, 22:23

As usual the 20% downpayment for my D15 ppty investment.

My bond portfolio consist of junk bond like mostly Chinese developers which pay 7% to 10% & some SGD bond
like banyan tree 6.25%, Lippomall 5,875% , Amtek 6.9% , Trafigura 7.5% , OLAM 7% etc from 2011 to 2015.
I did hold as high as S$4m+ with leveraging est 2m+. But not now. Only 2M+ I have traded almost 70 bonds since 2010.

I am now holding a Euro Carlye private equity fund (min investment amt) Euro300k since Dec 2006. The max holding
period for this Euro private equity fund is 10 yrs + 3 yrs extension. The fund will have capital call when there is a investment
need to invest in a new start up company. The capital call can be range from Euro $10k to 30k just like a ppty progressive
payment. One thing good about this private equity fund they can used the part of the fund distribution payout to pay for the capital call.

It has payout so far Euro$303k since 2012 till now. Current NAV price is Euro $165k still pending for further payout
distribution till 2019. Hopefully it can payout maybe >Euro $200k b4 the fund holding period end in 2019. It is quite
difficult to calculate the actual return.

I bought some phyical gold from UOB gold counter. But only $40k.

Currently, holding only Red chip H share (China life) at 20% paper loss. But I believe it should be ok to hold long term.
Yield 2%+.I am not so successful in my equity investment for the last 20yrs as the initial years was to PAY TO LEARN
to gain experience. But did not lose alot as I have the courage to cut loss if a trade turn bad.

My intention is to hold less volatile bond & to switch to equity when there is FEAR in the stock mtk. In Feb16, there is
a chance but I failed to strike when there really a extreme fear. This show that it is not easy to trade when there is a
real EXTREME FEAR . So I think I will be better off with fixed income with some risky taking into junk bond.

It is certainly a good deal

cbsh38584

28-08-16, 22:26

Turning 55 is supposed to be a momentous event in our lives.

When my dad reached that milestone 33 years ago, he stopped working. He also got a big windfall from withdrawing all his Central Provident Fund (CPF) savings. Those were the days when a person did not have to set aside any money in his CPF for retirement needs or medical expenses.

Time flies. I could scarcely believe that it was my turn to hit 55 earlier this month. I still look and feel pretty much the same as always, but my friends made a big fuss about it and hosted me to dinner at the Tanglin Club to celebrate the occasion.

For me, the greatest significance of this milestone is the need to take decisions on our CPF savings, which can turn out to be quite a sizeable sum for some of us.

In my case, the choice is simple. After setting aside $161,000 in the newly created CPF Retirement Account, I still have some funds left in both my CPF Ordinary and Special accounts.

I could have withdrawn the monies like my dad did all those years ago, but I decided against doing that because the CPF pays a much higher interest rate vis-a-vis what I can get from bank deposits.

ST ILLUSTRATION: MIEL
I also did something which my dad would not have dreamt of doing - I wrote a cheque to put another $80,500 into the CPF Retirement Account to top it up to the so-called Enhanced Retirement Sum limit of $241,500.

I also reckoned that if I pour another $7,500 each year into the Retirement Account for the next 10 years, the sum in it would escalate to about $470,000 by the time I turn 65. That is not including the additional savings that I would have accumulated from the contributions made to the CPF Ordinary and Special accounts so long as I keep on working.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.

This is because Singapore is one of the few remaining triple-A rated countries and the Singapore dollar is one of the world's strongest currencies.

In doing what I did to achieve the best returns I can get out of the CPF, I am simply relying on the power of compounding - once described by the great scientist Albert Einstein as the eighth wonder of the world.

I am also assuming that the CPF will continue to keep payouts at the current attractive levels while inflation stays low for a long time - a scenario that seems conceivable since much of the global economy is stuck in a rut of low growth which dampens consumer spending.

To try to achieve the same returns elsewhere, I would have to take on risks which may cause me to lose part of my nest egg if I am not careful. Given the availability of the CPF mechanism to accumulate returns risk-free, this is one issue which I would rather not lose sleep over.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.

I also find that I am not the only person who adopted such a strategy. At a recent class reunion, a classmate friend said that he had taken a similar approach.

What we are doing reminds one of the snowball analogy about accumulating wealth that was once articulated by Mr Charlie Munger, the billionaire business partner of investment guru Warren Buffett.

Mr Munger likens the process to rolling a snowball. It helps to start on top of a long hill, start rolling early, and try to roll that snowball for a very long time. It pays to start saving when one is young and to live a long life.

WHAT IF YOU HAVEN'T SAVED?

Now, this is well and good for people who have the foresight to consistently save more than they spend. We can afford to leave our monies in the CPF to enjoy a further snowballing effect on our retirement savings because we have other sources of finance to fall back on if we are suddenly confronted with an emergency.

This may, however, not sound like music to the ears of those in their 50s who may have missed out on the opportunity to squirrel away more savings when they were younger and who may be eyeing the CPF money, now locked out of their reach, to help defray their expenses.

This is the group which most keenly feel the threat of being pushed out of their jobs because their companies may want to replace them with younger and cheaper staff - but which want to carry on working, not because they want to, but because they have little savings to fall back on.

For them, turning 55 can be a scary turning point in life - the beginning of the end, as one friend despondently puts it. But this is surely no reason for despair if they are worried about their finances. There is still time to catch up.

I believe that the expertise they acquired from their many years of working will enable them to build up their wealth in a significant way if they put their heart and soul into it.

One of the most heartwarming stories I have ever read is that of a remarkable woman, Ms Anne Scheiber, who turned the US$5,000 which she had saved up when she retired at 50 into a mind-boggling US$22 million by the time she died at the ripe old age of 101 in 1995.

During her long career at the US Internal Revenue Service until she retired in 1944, Ms Scheiber never earned more than US$4,000 a year, and despite being an exemplary worker, she never got a promotion. She also suffered financial losses in the 1930s after getting bad advice from stockbrokers.

In short, hers is a familiar hard-luck story that those of us who may be stuck in a career rut and got burned in our investments when we looked for alternative ways to make money, can relate to.

Yet, after she retired, Ms Scheiber was able to turn adversity into advantage by putting to good use the analytical skills she picked up on her job by looking for worthwhile investments. Her investments included shares of companies such as healthcare products maker Johnson & Johnson and consumer products maker Colgate-Palmolive.

The best part of it all is that until her death, she operated from a tiny apartment in New York and nobody knew how incredibly wealthy she was.

There was even an upbeat end to her story: Towards the end of her life, she quietly arranged for her fortune, which had blossomed through both boom and bust, and every sociological change imaginable, to be donated to a university to set up a scholarship to help support women's education.

teddybear

28-08-16, 22:49

Think he is talking about a small minority? May be these small minority don't know the details?
If CPF so good other government don't want to copy and win more votes?
And he is the CPF advisory panel member, what do you expect him to say? You expect him to say CPF scheme is not good enough (and to tell the bad sides of it) etc? :boxing:

'Singaporeans don't realise what a good deal the CPF is'

The Central Provident Fund (CPF) system has its share of detractors among Singaporeans but, overseas, it attracts a lot of positive attention.

This puzzling fact could be because Singaporeans do not realise they really have a good deal, says finance professor Benedict Koh, a member of the advisory panel that studied ways to improve the scheme.

He tells Insight in a recent panel discussion: "I present papers at international conferences. You won't believe what people say: 'Can I invest in your account?'. 'Can foreigners buy it?'."

Many people here are not aware that a 4 to 5 per cent interest rate guaranteed by a government with a triple-A credit rating - the highest rating - is simply unique, says Prof Koh, who is associate dean of the Singapore Management University Lee Kong Chian School of Business.

CPF savings currently accumulate interest of between 2.5 and 6 per cent, including additional interest on lower balances as well as for older members.

There is a legislated minimum interest of 2.5 per cent per year on Ordinary Account savings, but the rate will follow the three-month average of major local banks' interest rates if that is higher.

For the July to September CPF interest rates, the latter was calculated from February to April and was only 0.24 per cent.

The interest rates on the Special, Medisave and Retirement accounts are pegged at 1 percentage point above the 12-month average yield of 10-year Singapore Government Securities, or 4 per cent, whichever is higher. But there is a limit to what people can expect from the system, because it must be a sustainable one, say Prof Koh and panel chairman Tan Chorh Chuan.

For instance, it is not advisable to extend the extra 1 percentage point interest on the first $60,000 of balances to a higher limit because, "eventually, someone would have to pay for that", says Professor Tan.

Prof Koh adds: "You cannot guarantee paying interest on a risk-free asset that is permanently higher than the market rates. For a country like ours with limited financial resources, it's not a prudent thing to do. I teach finance and my message in the first class is always 'There is no free lunch'. You cannot want high returns and not take risks, you will never find such a financial product."

For those who do have a higher risk appetite, but lack the time and expertise to actively manage investments, the panel recommended introducing a new Lifetime Retirement Investment Scheme to give members more options.

VIEWING IT AS A WHOLE

But if the system is so good, why do some people clamour to take as much money out of it as they can?

One reason could be that people tend to view the CPF system in fragments rather than as a whole retirement savings plan, says fellow advisory panel member Christopher Tan, chief executive of financial advisory Providend.

Looking at it in parts, people see that they put their money in when they are young, and when they want to take it all out at 55 they are unable to, and at 65 they try again and can withdraw only a portion.

In fact, it is similar to what people sign up for with conventional retirement plans offered by insurance companies, he says, where "you don't take the money out early, and when you reach the age of 55 or 60 if you don't take out a lump sum they pay it out as an annuity".

In CPF Life, money that is in the Retirement Account when members choose to start getting monthly payouts is used as the premium for the annuity that provides the payouts.

"So if people see that connection and they see this like a retirement plan, if you look at CPF like another provider and compare all the products between the providers right now, it's the best retirement plan you can find, really," he said.

Arcachon

28-08-16, 22:58

Good story, too bad there is still many Ms. Scheiber around before her retirement.

Kelonguni

28-08-16, 23:26

http://www.financialwisdomforum.org/gummy-stuff/Scheiber.htm

Read till the end. She has done great, but it's the way of life that really made the difference.

Turning 55 is supposed to be a momentous event in our lives.

When my dad reached that milestone 33 years ago, he stopped working. He also got a big windfall from withdrawing all his Central Provident Fund (CPF) savings. Those were the days when a person did not have to set aside any money in his CPF for retirement needs or medical expenses.

Time flies. I could scarcely believe that it was my turn to hit 55 earlier this month. I still look and feel pretty much the same as always, but my friends made a big fuss about it and hosted me to dinner at the Tanglin Club to celebrate the occasion.

For me, the greatest significance of this milestone is the need to take decisions on our CPF savings, which can turn out to be quite a sizeable sum for some of us.

In my case, the choice is simple. After setting aside $161,000 in the newly created CPF Retirement Account, I still have some funds left in both my CPF Ordinary and Special accounts.

I could have withdrawn the monies like my dad did all those years ago, but I decided against doing that because the CPF pays a much higher interest rate vis-a-vis what I can get from bank deposits.

ST ILLUSTRATION: MIEL
I also did something which my dad would not have dreamt of doing - I wrote a cheque to put another $80,500 into the CPF Retirement Account to top it up to the so-called Enhanced Retirement Sum limit of $241,500.

I also reckoned that if I pour another $7,500 each year into the Retirement Account for the next 10 years, the sum in it would escalate to about $470,000 by the time I turn 65. That is not including the additional savings that I would have accumulated from the contributions made to the CPF Ordinary and Special accounts so long as I keep on working.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.

This is because Singapore is one of the few remaining triple-A rated countries and the Singapore dollar is one of the world's strongest currencies.

In doing what I did to achieve the best returns I can get out of the CPF, I am simply relying on the power of compounding - once described by the great scientist Albert Einstein as the eighth wonder of the world.

I am also assuming that the CPF will continue to keep payouts at the current attractive levels while inflation stays low for a long time - a scenario that seems conceivable since much of the global economy is stuck in a rut of low growth which dampens consumer spending.

To try to achieve the same returns elsewhere, I would have to take on risks which may cause me to lose part of my nest egg if I am not careful. Given the availability of the CPF mechanism to accumulate returns risk-free, this is one issue which I would rather not lose sleep over.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.

I also find that I am not the only person who adopted such a strategy. At a recent class reunion, a classmate friend said that he had taken a similar approach.

What we are doing reminds one of the snowball analogy about accumulating wealth that was once articulated by Mr Charlie Munger, the billionaire business partner of investment guru Warren Buffett.

Mr Munger likens the process to rolling a snowball. It helps to start on top of a long hill, start rolling early, and try to roll that snowball for a very long time. It pays to start saving when one is young and to live a long life.

WHAT IF YOU HAVEN'T SAVED?

Now, this is well and good for people who have the foresight to consistently save more than they spend. We can afford to leave our monies in the CPF to enjoy a further snowballing effect on our retirement savings because we have other sources of finance to fall back on if we are suddenly confronted with an emergency.

This may, however, not sound like music to the ears of those in their 50s who may have missed out on the opportunity to squirrel away more savings when they were younger and who may be eyeing the CPF money, now locked out of their reach, to help defray their expenses.

This is the group which most keenly feel the threat of being pushed out of their jobs because their companies may want to replace them with younger and cheaper staff - but which want to carry on working, not because they want to, but because they have little savings to fall back on.

For them, turning 55 can be a scary turning point in life - the beginning of the end, as one friend despondently puts it. But this is surely no reason for despair if they are worried about their finances. There is still time to catch up.

I believe that the expertise they acquired from their many years of working will enable them to build up their wealth in a significant way if they put their heart and soul into it.

One of the most heartwarming stories I have ever read is that of a remarkable woman, Ms Anne Scheiber, who turned the US$5,000 which she had saved up when she retired at 50 into a mind-boggling US$22 million by the time she died at the ripe old age of 101 in 1995.

During her long career at the US Internal Revenue Service until she retired in 1944, Ms Scheiber never earned more than US$4,000 a year, and despite being an exemplary worker, she never got a promotion. She also suffered financial losses in the 1930s after getting bad advice from stockbrokers.

In short, hers is a familiar hard-luck story that those of us who may be stuck in a career rut and got burned in our investments when we looked for alternative ways to make money, can relate to.

Yet, after she retired, Ms Scheiber was able to turn adversity into advantage by putting to good use the analytical skills she picked up on her job by looking for worthwhile investments. Her investments included shares of companies such as healthcare products maker Johnson & Johnson and consumer products maker Colgate-Palmolive.

The best part of it all is that until her death, she operated from a tiny apartment in New York and nobody knew how incredibly wealthy she was.

There was even an upbeat end to her story: Towards the end of her life, she quietly arranged for her fortune, which had blossomed through both boom and bust, and every sociological change imaginable, to be donated to a university to set up a scholarship to help support women's education.

teddybear

28-08-16, 23:40

Think you have made mistakes in your comments about CPF because you have not got your facts right, and you are still not reading what we have discussed in this forum about CPF and CPF Life........ :dejection:

(1) If you put more money into CPF Retirement Account, then from 65 years old onwards, your actual return will depends on how old you can live.

(2) To illustrate the return of CPF Life, let's just say the your CPF Retirement Account has $161,000.
The payout is about $1300 pm for men (and CPF could change this payout figure any time, but let's just assume it remains constant for now).
The average life-span for Singapore men is about 80 years old.
So, based on above, your CPF life return if you could live till 80 years old = -0.94%.

(3) From (2) above, we know that even if you could live till 80 years old, your CPF Life return is basically negative! (and based on known data, about half of the Singapore men won't be able to make it pass 80 years old).

(4) From (2) and (3) above, how could you conclude that CPF Life is giving your attractive return that you can't beat if you invest these money instead? You can't beat the CPF Life's negative return?

(5) The above illustrates that that CPF Life payout is not really attractive, contrary to what you concluded (even if you, like about half of all Singapore men, can only live till average age of 80 years old)!

Turning 55 is supposed to be a momentous event in our lives.

When my dad reached that milestone 33 years ago, he stopped working. He also got a big windfall from withdrawing all his Central Provident Fund (CPF) savings. Those were the days when a person did not have to set aside any money in his CPF for retirement needs or medical expenses.

Time flies. I could scarcely believe that it was my turn to hit 55 earlier this month. I still look and feel pretty much the same as always, but my friends made a big fuss about it and hosted me to dinner at the Tanglin Club to celebrate the occasion.

For me, the greatest significance of this milestone is the need to take decisions on our CPF savings, which can turn out to be quite a sizeable sum for some of us.

In my case, the choice is simple. After setting aside $161,000 in the newly created CPF Retirement Account, I still have some funds left in both my CPF Ordinary and Special accounts.

I could have withdrawn the monies like my dad did all those years ago, but I decided against doing that because the CPF pays a much higher interest rate vis-a-vis what I can get from bank deposits.

ST ILLUSTRATION: MIEL
I also did something which my dad would not have dreamt of doing - I wrote a cheque to put another $80,500 into the CPF Retirement Account to top it up to the so-called Enhanced Retirement Sum limit of $241,500.

I also reckoned that if I pour another $7,500 each year into the Retirement Account for the next 10 years, the sum in it would escalate to about $470,000 by the time I turn 65. That is not including the additional savings that I would have accumulated from the contributions made to the CPF Ordinary and Special accounts so long as I keep on working.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.

This is because Singapore is one of the few remaining triple-A rated countries and the Singapore dollar is one of the world's strongest currencies.

In doing what I did to achieve the best returns I can get out of the CPF, I am simply relying on the power of compounding - once described by the great scientist Albert Einstein as the eighth wonder of the world.

I am also assuming that the CPF will continue to keep payouts at the current attractive levels while inflation stays low for a long time - a scenario that seems conceivable since much of the global economy is stuck in a rut of low growth which dampens consumer spending.

To try to achieve the same returns elsewhere, I would have to take on risks which may cause me to lose part of my nest egg if I am not careful. Given the availability of the CPF mechanism to accumulate returns risk-free, this is one issue which I would rather not lose sleep over.

Those who want their CPF money back as soon as they can get their hands on it will think that I must be crazy to be putting more money into my CPF Retirement Account.

However, to me, the ugly possibility of my CPF money going up in smoke or not getting the money back is practically nil. The CPF is probably the safest place in the world to park our retirement nest egg and get an attractive, risk-free return to boot.
?
I also find that I am not the only person who adopted such a strategy. At a recent class reunion, a classmate friend said that he had taken a similar approach.

What we are doing reminds one of the snowball analogy about accumulating wealth that was once articulated by Mr Charlie Munger, the billionaire business partner of investment guru Warren Buffett.

Mr Munger likens the process to rolling a snowball. It helps to start on top of a long hill, start rolling early, and try to roll that snowball for a very long time. It pays to start saving when one is young and to live a long life.

WHAT IF YOU HAVEN'T SAVED?

Now, this is well and good for people who have the foresight to consistently save more than they spend. We can afford to leave our monies in the CPF to enjoy a further snowballing effect on our retirement savings because we have other sources of finance to fall back on if we are suddenly confronted with an emergency.

This may, however, not sound like music to the ears of those in their 50s who may have missed out on the opportunity to squirrel away more savings when they were younger and who may be eyeing the CPF money, now locked out of their reach, to help defray their expenses.

This is the group which most keenly feel the threat of being pushed out of their jobs because their companies may want to replace them with younger and cheaper staff - but which want to carry on working, not because they want to, but because they have little savings to fall back on.

For them, turning 55 can be a scary turning point in life - the beginning of the end, as one friend despondently puts it. But this is surely no reason for despair if they are worried about their finances. There is still time to catch up.

I believe that the expertise they acquired from their many years of working will enable them to build up their wealth in a significant way if they put their heart and soul into it.

One of the most heartwarming stories I have ever read is that of a remarkable woman, Ms Anne Scheiber, who turned the US$5,000 which she had saved up when she retired at 50 into a mind-boggling US$22 million by the time she died at the ripe old age of 101 in 1995.

During her long career at the US Internal Revenue Service until she retired in 1944, Ms Scheiber never earned more than US$4,000 a year, and despite being an exemplary worker, she never got a promotion. She also suffered financial losses in the 1930s after getting bad advice from stockbrokers.

In short, hers is a familiar hard-luck story that those of us who may be stuck in a career rut and got burned in our investments when we looked for alternative ways to make money, can relate to.

Yet, after she retired, Ms Scheiber was able to turn adversity into advantage by putting to good use the analytical skills she picked up on her job by looking for worthwhile investments. Her investments included shares of companies such as healthcare products maker Johnson & Johnson and consumer products maker Colgate-Palmolive.

The best part of it all is that until her death, she operated from a tiny apartment in New York and nobody knew how incredibly wealthy she was.

There was even an upbeat end to her story: Towards the end of her life, she quietly arranged for her fortune, which had blossomed through both boom and bust, and every sociological change imaginable, to be donated to a university to set up a scholarship to help support women's education.

teddybear

28-08-16, 23:52

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)

Think you have made mistakes in your comments about CPF because you have not got your facts right, and you are still not reading what we have discussed in this forum about CPF and CPF Life........ :dejection:

(1) If you put more money into CPF Retirement Account, then from 65 years old onwards, your actual return will depends on how old you can live.

(2) To illustrate the return of CPF Life, let's just say the your CPF Retirement Account has $161,000.
The payout is about $1300 pm for men (and CPF could change this payout figure any time, but let's just assume it remains constant for now).
The average life-span for Singapore men is about 80 years old.
So, based on above, your CPF life return if you could live till 80 years old = -0.94%.

(3) From (2) above, we know that even if you could live till 80 years old, your CPF Life return is basically negative! (and based on known data, about half of the Singapore men won't be able to make it pass 80 years old).

(4) From (2) and (3) above, how could you conclude that CPF Life is giving your attractive return that you can't beat if you invest these money instead? You can't beat the CPF Life's negative return?

(5) The above illustrates that that CPF Life payout is not really attractive, contrary to what you concluded (even if you, like about half of all Singapore men, can only live till average age of 80 years old)!

cbsh38584

29-08-16, 07:27

CPF is more than enough for retirement Planning if you manage it wisely - Starting pay $2500 @age25
=============================================================================
There are 3 type of min retirement sum as from 2016 Figure.

2016 retirement sum figure for BRS (80.5k) , FRS ($161k) & ERS ($241k)
2020 retirement sum figure for BRS (90.5k) , FRS ($181k) & ERS ($271k) inflation est 2.5%

1. Basic Retirement Sum(BRS) = $80.5k with 2/3/4 rm HDB pledged
Monthly payout for life@65 = $660-$720

2. Full Retirement Sum (FRS) = $161k (No 2/3/4 rm HDB pledged)
Monthly payout for life@65 = $1220-$1320

3.Enhanced Retirement Sum (ERS) = $241,500
Those who wish to put more saving in CPF life - optional
Monthly payout for life@65 = $1770-$1920.

Max contribution to your CPF for 2015 = $31.45k / yr (20% of your Salary + 17% employer + voluntary cash)
Max contribution to your CPF for 2016 = $37.75k / yr (20% of your Salary + 17% employer + voluntary cash)

Many of them are unaware of how their annual income + CPF adds up over 30 years of working (age 25 to age 55).

Starting pay $2500 (3% Salary increment yearly till age 55).Do nothing to your CPF acct
==================================================================
At age 25 - OA=$7.1k. SA=$1.9k MA=$2.5k

By age 35, OA=$112k. SA=33k. MA=41k

By age 45 - OA=$268k. SA=120k. MA=97k

By age 55 - OA=$479k. SA=354k. MA = $138k

** When MA (now call BHS) ceiling is reached ($49.8k) Excess goes to SA. But if SA (4%) min FRS ($161k) is also reached. MA (4%) excess goes to OA (2.5%)

NET CASH Income (take home pay) earned accumulated for 30 years of working (age 25 to age 55)= $1.3 million dollars very very more than enough
for the HDB BTO 4rm HDB flat $350k (income >$8k no HDB grant) . I did not include variable or performance bonus which range from 0.5 mth to 3 mths
& also your partner income whic may be also $1.3m if she/he has the same earning power.

If you have the job stability & the financial capablilty . Consider on How To Manage Your CPF Money by Shift all your money from Ordinary Acct to Special Acct as
YOUNG as possible. You will get extra >60k to 100k more with no sweat involved at all.Just transfering OA-SA every Year . It MUST BE DONE when you are young.

Shift CPF-OA (2.5%-3.5%) to SA (4-5%) at YOUNG age & start to transfer OA (2.5% to SA(4%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At age 25 - OA=$7.1k. SA=$1.9k. MA=$2.5k.

By age 35, OA=0 (vs 112k). SA=156k (vs 33k) . MA=41k

By 45 - OA=$85k.(vs 268k) SA=347k (vs 120k). MA=93k

By 55 - OA=$341k (vs$479k) @SA=$550k to 600k. (vs $354k). @MA=$100k - 135k

@ SA=550k to $600k depend on the CPF board yearly adjustment of the min sum retirement % increment. Range from 2.5% to 3.5%.

@ MA= $100k to $135k also depend on the CPF board yearly adjustment on the MA & your medishield life selection from Govt b2 to private A class
MA (now call BHS) ceiling is reached. MA Excess goes to SA. But if SA min sum is also reached. MA excess goes to OA

Remember, you are not voluntary CASH contribution in the CPF. Just only your 20% of your Salary + 17% from your employer.

================================================================================================================
I believe only the minorities have the financial capablity , determination & discipline to prorities their retirement need when young & transfer from OA
to SA to see the magic of compouned interest in their special acct. Young prefer WANTS 1st & ignore the NEEDS. if they mismanage the CASH & CPF,
they will be in trouble when they grow old. Low cash & low CPF.

I do not recommend to voluntary contribute cash into CPF when young unless you really have more more than enough cash either from your parent or you yourself.
Maybe when your reach late 40s & your children are age 21 & start working . You have extra cash. Can consider voluntary cash into CPF if min sum is met.
By age 55, you can withdraw all after meeting the min sum (161k). Eg OA=200k SA=201k MA=49.8k(cannot touch). U can withdraw all OA=200k + SA=40k
(201k minus 161k) if you chose FRS ($161k).

Since most of the young couple likely to marry late between age 30-40. Why not set yourself a tgt to hit your Special acct min $100k at age 35
(By age 35, OA=$112k. SA=33k --- Move 67k from your OA to SA (33k + 67k ) to increase your SA to 100k tgt.

Once your SA=100k is reached by age 35. You know that the BIG WORRY min retirement need is SETTLED & can concentrate to build your OA .
Any extra contribution to your SA is extra extra bonus.

$100k compounded 4% interest for 30 yrs. U will have at least 325k at age 65. A very basic retirement est 2.5k/mth at age 65 for life.
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm

FYI, those wiives who decided to become a homemaker to take care of children & self employed . You better start to think now about your retirement as you have much lesser CPF for retirement. A umarried man or women. You are also need to plan early as MAID is the only person which you need to depend on when you grow old.

CPF scheme is probably one of the best tool for retirement planning.
A fresh graduate at age 25 starting pay $2500. With a yearly 3% till age 55.
If he can manage his CPF wisely by transfer your CPF OA (2.5% - 3.5%) to CPF SA(4-5%). By age 55 to 57, he probably will have S$1m in his CPF acct.

A middle income S'porean earner can achieve $1m using only 20% of his OWN Salary which is est $316k.. The rest is 17% from employer contribution + snowball effect
of the compounded interest earned. Dont you think it is a good deal for the fresh young guy only using 20% salary 30 yrs of contribution of $316k grow to $1m in 30 to 32 yrs time.

Fresh graduate (starting pay $2.5k (with 3% yearly increment till age 55) 20% of his salary 30 yrs of CPF contribution = $316k
30 to 32 years later = From $316k to $1m (with the help of your employer 17% contribution + snowball compounded interest effect).

So better stay employed as long as possible till age 55. Dont need to be a high income earner earning >$10k/mth.
Starting pay $2500 age 25 will do. So plan & actively manage your CPF wisely. Set a tgt for CPF acct. Dont ignore & have a mind set "CPF $ cannot touch".

Kelonguni

29-08-16, 09:50

In essence, CPF and/or properties.

Both have their merits and strengths.

If you can put into properties and top up CPF to the max, you can afford to retire very assuredly and comfortably.

If only have properties and no CPF, you will continue to have to worry about the tenancy market.

If only have CPF and no properties (or only 1 for housing), you will continue to have to worry about inflation and the inflated and depreciated value of the funds in your CPF. And have to find some way to survive through 55 to 65 even if you have strong need to withdraw.

My choice is balance between CPF and (additional) housing needs.

star

29-08-16, 12:38

Kelonguni

29-08-16, 12:52

U can leave it in retirement account to earn 4% to 5% interest. Lets say u got $1m in retirement account after 55yrs old, every year interest amount to $40k...
Btw anyone knows if we can withdraw the interest yearly after 55yrs old?

Earn 40K is true for RA.

But you can only withdraw once at 55. Cannot touch till 65 woh...

Unless set aside in OA and earn OA interest rate. Then can use for housing.

40K seems a lot now but we really don't know its value 10 or 20 years later.

richwang

30-08-16, 20:27

richwang

30-08-16, 20:36

S$1M 30 years later is equivalent to $300k in today's money (assuming a 4% discount rate), you cannot buy much.

http://www.calculator.net/finance-calculator.html?ctype=startingamount&ctargetamountv=1000000&cyearsv=30&cstartingprinciplev=&cinterestratev=4&ccontributeamountv=0&ciadditionat1=end&printit=0&x=64&y=24

richwang

30-08-16, 20:45

If u attend a cpf event, you can see how desperate they ask you to put money into SA: transfer from OA or even using cash.
When anyone is asking about the payout rate is only 2% (by age 85), or you need to live until 93 (4%), they simply refuse to answer that question, and say: "let's discuss offline."
When a sales person is behaving like that, you know what is your best option.

richwang

30-08-16, 20:49

I am going to withdraw whatever I can withdraw at 55, and I am not going to put a single cent of my own cash into it.

chestnut

30-08-16, 20:54

I am going to withdraw whatever I can withdraw at 55, and I am not going to put a single cent of my own cash into it.

Use cpf for monthly mortgage and keep rental amount. It is like cashing out from cpf.

When a person reach mid life, cash is more important.

teddybear

30-08-16, 21:18

You can keep $1M in your CPF account but you will never get $40k interest p.a.!

Don't go and believe all those propaganda about CPF, just like they telling you that CPF Life pays 4% return p.a. (but they will conveniently "forget" to tell you that you will have to live pass 93 years old to get that kind of return with your money in CPF Life, of which probably 95% or more of the people can't make it! Most of you will probably get 1.x% return or even less..............)

U can leave it in retirement account to earn 4% to 5% interest. Lets say u got $1m in retirement account after 55yrs old, every year interest amount to $40k...
Btw anyone knows if we can withdraw the interest yearly after 55yrs old?

richwang

30-08-16, 22:33

PV = 370,420 at age 65
I = 4
FV = 0
PMT = 21,240

Calculate N = 28

That means you need to live until 65 + 28 = 93 years old, good luck!

http://tcalc.timevalue.com/all-financial-calculators/retirement-calculators/retirement-longevity-calculator.aspx?STARTBALANCE=%24370%2C420.00&WITHDRAWALAMOUNT=21240&ROI=4.000+%25&WITHDRAWALPERIOD=12&SHOWAMORTIZATIONSCHEDULE=on&COMPUTE=COMPUTE&CALCULATORID=RC07&HIDEFORMTAG=TRUE&TEMPLATE_ID=www.timevaluecalculators.com_1&PostBack=true#results

And the "return rate" is 21,240 / 370,420 = 5.7% if you can live forever!

Kelonguni

30-08-16, 22:45

As long as save and invest wisely, we will all be safe.

You ask people not to save in cpf, too late. Already did.

You ask people to save in cpf, for some also too late cos not enough years to compound.

So just chill. Either way, can save up and hit 4% of gains annually, for sure we will die with money that we don't get to spend. And that is enough for me.

Million here million there also can't hug to coffin.

teddybear

31-08-16, 12:57

What can you expect?
They just didn't want to tell the truth, and only want to tell half-truths and deflect to something else by not answering your question?

MOM reply (see below) is that "Mr Kung stated that CPF LIFE provides a return of 3.5% per annum. This is incorrect. CPF savings used to purchase a CPF LIFE plan receive the current CPF interest rate floor of 4% per annum as well as the extra interest rates of up to 2%."

Well, the letter writer is asking about the CPF Life payout return over the life time of the payee and is MOM telling us that CPF Life provides a return of 4-6% over the whole duration of the payout regardless of what age the person die?
Did MOM mis-interpret the question, or trying to avoid the question by side-stepping or try to tell half-truth???
Can MOM show us how they arrive at 4-6% return for CPF Life payout over the life time of the payee?

Anyway, it is unlikely that MOM, CPF, the newspapers, or anybody else in the mainstream news to that effect, will bother to show how they arrive at 4-6% return for CPF Life payout over the life time of the payee, because the truth is that they CAN'T (without showing that you need to live pass 100 years old) since the truth is that if you live till average age of 80 (for men) or 85 (for women), your CPF Life return is still <1.x % only!!!

If u attend a cpf event, you can see how desperate they ask you to put money into SA: transfer from OA or even using cash.
When anyone is asking about the payout rate is only 2% (by age 85), or you need to live until 93 (4%), they simply refuse to answer that question, and say: "let's discuss offline."
When a sales person is behaving like that, you know what is your best option.

CPF system constantly enhanced for more retirement assurance

TODAY (19 August 2016): CPF system constantly enhanced for more retirement assurance
TODAY (11 August 2016): CPF system still flawed despite new proposals

CPF system constantly enhanced for more retirement assurance
- TODAY, 19 August 2016

We refer to Mr Geoffrey Kung's letter (“CPF system still flawed despite new proposals”, 11 August).
The Government has been continually improving the CPF system to help Singaporeans meet their basic retirement needs, recognising that Singaporeans will live longer. Among Singaporeans aged 65 today, 1 in 2 will live past age 85, and 1 in 3 will live past age 90.
CPF LIFE was introduced in 2009 to help the increasing number of Singaporeans who will live longer, by giving them CPF payouts for life. Since then, more than 89,000 CPF members have voluntarily opted to join CPF LIFE. It will become the retirement scheme for the majority of CPF members turning 55 from 2013 onwards.
We have also progressively enabled Singaporeans to save more through CPF. The CPF salary ceiling, which is the maximum monthly salary that is subject to CPF contributions, has been raised from $5,000 to $6,000. We have also raised the CPF contribution rates for workers aged 50 to 55 to the same level as those for younger workers. To help lower-wage workers save more for retirement, we have provided them with CPF top-ups through the Workfare Income Supplement Scheme.
We have also improved the returns on CPF savings. CPF members aged 55 and above now earn an additional 1% extra interest on the first $30,000 of their CPF balances. This is on top of the 1% extra interest on the first $60,000 of CPF balances that all CPF members receive.
Mr Kung stated that CPF LIFE provides a return of 3.5% per annum. This is incorrect. CPF savings used to purchase a CPF LIFE plan receive the current CPF interest rate floor of 4% per annum as well as the extra interest rates of up to 2%. This will increase the member’s CPF LIFE payouts.
Most recently, the CPF Advisory Panel recommended the introduction of a CPF LIFE plan with a lower starting payout that increases at 2% annually. This plan will provide more choice for CPF members. It is in addition to the current CPF LIFE Standard and Basic plans and does not replace them.
The Government remains committed to continually enhancing the CPF system so that we can better help Singaporeans prepare for their retirement.

CPF system still flawed despite new proposals
- TODAY, 11 August 2016
I refer to the report “Flexible annuity, new CPF investment scheme recommended” (Aug 4). It seems there is a need for flexibility because the Central Provident Fund scheme affects a wide range of different individuals.
However, the fundamental flaws in the system remain, at the root of which is the inadequacy of CPF savings to see one through retirement.
This is obvious because the CPF contribution rates and accumulation period were calculated decades ago to last a shorter lifespan.
Singaporeans’ increasing longevity has blown a hole in the original computation and intention of the CPF.
If retirement savings are inadequate, then higher returns are needed to compensate for this. The Lifetime Retirement Investment Scheme promises better returns but may come with a higher risk, which cannot be taken with CPF money.
The real bugbear in the existing CPF Investment Scheme is that management fees take a bite out of the yield in the current low interest rate environment.
To lop 0.5 per cent off a 4.5 per cent yield is to reduce the return for retirees by 11 per cent. The CPF Board should adopt a two-pronged approach: Lower management fees and increase returns by hedging risks.
As for the current CPF Life yield, it is approximately 3.5 per cent. If the vesting period receives 4-plus per cent, then the same 4 per cent should apply to payout periods.
The reluctance or inability to pay annuitants more has given rise to the most visible problem. Inflation is seen to eat into already-inadequate payouts, hence the call for some inflation-protection features.
But to propose starting payouts about 20 per cent lower to hedge against a 2 per cent annual inflation is a worse deal for members.
One of the more common reasons for resisting annuities is that the annuitant may live less than the average life expectancy used in calculating payouts.
And the new proposal seems to have overlooked the poor response to the original CPF annuity scheme, before it was made compulsory. (http://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-replies/2016/0819-cpf-system-constantly-enhanced-for-more-retirement-assurance)

richwang

31-08-16, 21:00

Million here million there also can't hug to coffin.
There are plenty of multi-generation products to allow wealth to pass on.
Trust, some insurance, etc. Freehold property ...
Mutil-genration planning is becoming more and more important in an increasingly unequal society.

richwang

31-08-16, 21:06

http://www.manulife.com.sg/wealth-protection-insurance.aspx

richwang

31-08-16, 21:22

Amazing, Manulife also promises a 2% payout, so this is the market norm. Then just say so, why try to confuse people by mentioning the irrelevant 4-6% accumulation stage rate?

richwang

31-08-16, 21:26

http://www.tokiomarine.com/sg/en/personal/wealth/legacy-planning.html

teddybear

31-08-16, 21:46

Is it trying to confuse, or trying to mislead, or trying to speak half-truth or ?????????
Is this the true definition of half-truth (http://quotes.lifehack.org/media/quotes/quote-Alfred-Lord-Tennyson-a-lie-which-is-half-a-truth-1376.png)?

Don't forget, Manulife exist as a "profit-making" organization, and if they pay 2% payout guaranteed with another 1.8% variable payout, why is CPF Life paying just 1.x% payout (which is all non-gauranteed)? Don't tell me CPF regards CPF Life as "profit-making" entity like Manulife and hence want to earn more than Manulife???

Amazing, Manulife also promises a 2% payout, so this is the market norm. Then just say so, why try to confuse people by mentioning the irrelevant 4-6% accumulation stage rate?

cbsh38584

31-08-16, 22:54

CPF scheme is probably one of the best tool for retirement planning.
A fresh graduate at age 25 starting pay $2500. With a yearly 3% till age 55.
If he can manage his CPF wisely by transfer your CPF OA (2.5% - 3.5%) to CPF SA(4-5%). By age 55 to 57, he probably will have S$1m in his CPF acct.

A middle income S'porean earner can achieve $1m using only 20% of his OWN Salary which is est $316k.. The rest is 17% from employer contribution + snowball effect
of the compounded interest earned. Dont you think it is a good deal for the fresh young guy only using 20% salary 30 yrs of contribution of $316k grow to $1m in 30 to 32 yrs time.

Fresh graduate (starting pay $2.5k (with 3% yearly increment till age 55) 20% of his salary 30 yrs of CPF contribution = $316k
30 to 32 years later = From $316k to $1m (with the help of your employer 17% contribution + snowball compounded interest effect).

So better stay employed as long as possible till age 55. Dont need to be a high income earner earning >$10k/mth.
Starting pay $2500 age 25 will do. So plan & actively manage your CPF wisely. Set a tgt for CPF acct. Dont ignore & have a mind set "CPF $ cannot touch".

A young graduate with a starting Salary of $2500 at age 25 is enough for you to retired with $1m in your CPF at age between 55 to 57. You dont need to be a HIGH INCOME EARNER OF $10k/mth. $2500 per mth at age 25 with 3% yearly till age 55 is enough. You just need plan & manage your CPF wisely by just transfering from CPF-OA (2.5%-3.5%) to CPF-SA (4%-5%) when you are young at age 25.

Just look at the $1m in your CPF at age 55-57 breakdown
============================================
325k (20% your own Salary accumulated for 30 yrs) + 276k(17% employer accumulated for 30 yrs )+ est 600k (accumulated compounded interest for 30 yrs).
Look at the 600k compounded interest you will earn for the next 30 yrs if you leave untouch + transfer from CPF-OA to CPF-SA.
You dont have to voluntary cash contribution unless you want your CPF acct to grow even bigger $1.2M to $1.6m on top of what you & your employer contribution.
So CPF is the best scheme for you to plan & manage wisely for the next 30 yrs for your retirement.

FYI, your take home pay est $1.3m accumulated for 30 yrs. Enough for a 4rm BTO flat est 250k to 350k (not yet include HDB grant of 8k to 80k).
Currently, the min full retirement sum (FRS) is $161k for yr 2016. By 2046, the FRS will be probably between $350k to $400k.

We need to thank our GREAT LEADER LKY ensuring with have more than enough clean water. Even if there is a drought, S'pore is prepared for it
WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF DROUGHT. How did our great leader done it ?

FOUR NATIONAL TAP
=================
1) Local Catchment Water,
2) Imported Water,
3)Reclaimed water (known as NEWater)
4) and Desalinated water

When I plan for my retirement at age 60. I make sure I have at least TWO sources of income.
1) CPF - The safest of all. But it require to think & plan long term to achieve it. You need to trust the system.
It is earning high interest , risk FREE & guarantee. Since CPF is the safest. You can say I AM NOT AFRAID OF ANOTHER BIG CRISIS.

2) property - rental . But it is not always smooth sailing (up & down & others problem)

3) Fixed income . either individual investment grade bond or bond fund etc

It will be enough for me to retire at a comfort level. Not luxury.

It is a risk for husband & wife both work in the same company. If it happen that the company is not doing well. Both will be retrenched.
So there is a saying that never put everything in one basket eg all asset in S'pore property. Our CPF $ is invested GLOBALLY
all over the world. So No concentrating risk .

Let say you have 761k (OA+SA) in your CPF at age 55. After minus the min full retirement sum (FRS) of 161k which will transfer
in your new RA acct. You left will 761k-161k = 600k. You withdraw a lump of $600k out & invest in ppty again even though u
already invested (maybe 1 or 2). Then you are put yourself into a CONCENTRATION RISK. The safest CPF money is gone
into another ppty. Trouble may come if interest rate raise very fast or a bad reccession comes.

teddybear

31-08-16, 23:24

(1) "Currently, the min full retirement sum (FRS) is $161k for yr 2016. By 2046, the FRS will be probably between $350k to $400k."
I think you raise an interesting issue here. $161k FRS will give payout of $1300 pm for man. Say by 2046 FRS is $350k-400k, why need so high FRS? Isn't the monthly subsidy for the poor only $300 pm, and if this is considered enough by the Government for a person to survive, why need to insist the rest to put aside $1300 pm?

(2) "1) CPF" - "You need to trust the system. It is earning high interest".
Again, what you said do not tally with reality.

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

So, question: How to trust the CPF system when they keep CLAIMING that they give you 4-6% return p.a. BUT in reality they are giving you NEGATIVE return when in above case a man can live till average age of 80 years old (meaning that about 50% of people or even many more will get NEGATIVE return from CPF Life!)

Think you have made mistakes in your comments about CPF because you have not got your facts right, and you are still not reading what we have discussed in this forum about CPF and CPF Life........

(1) If you put more money into CPF Retirement Account, then from 65 years old onwards, your actual return will depends on how old you can live.

(2) To illustrate the return of CPF Life, let's just say the your CPF Retirement Account has $161,000.
The payout is about $1300 pm for men (and CPF could change this payout figure any time, but let's just assume it remains constant for now).
The average life-span for Singapore men is about 80 years old.
So, based on above, your CPF life return if you could live till 80 years old = -0.94%.

(3) From (2) above, we know that even if you could live till 80 years old, your CPF Life return is basically negative! (and based on known data, about half of the Singapore men won't be able to make it pass 80 years old).

(4) From (2) and (3) above, how could you conclude that CPF Life is giving your attractive return that you can't beat if you invest these money instead? You can't beat the CPF Life's negative return?

(5) The above illustrates that that CPF Life payout is not really attractive, contrary to what you concluded (even if you, like about half of all Singapore men, can only live till average age of 80 years old)!

A young graduate with a starting Salary of $2500 at age 25 is enough for you to retired with $1m in your CPF at age between 55 to 57. You dont need to be a HIGH INCOME EARNER OF $10k/mth. $2500 per mth at age 25 with 3% yearly till age 55 is enough. You just need plan & manage your CPF wisely by just transfering from CPF-OA (2.5%-3.5%) to CPF-SA (4%-5%) when you are young at age 25.

Just look at the $1m in your CPF at age 55-57 breakdown
============================================
325k (20% your own Salary accumulated for 30 yrs) + 276k(17% employer accumulated for 30 yrs )+ est 600k (accumulated compounded interest for 30 yrs).
Look at the 600k compounded interest you will earn for the next 30 yrs if you leave untouch + transfer from CPF-OA to CPF-SA.
You dont have to voluntary cash contribution unless you want your CPF acct to grow even bigger $1.2M to $1.6m on top of what you & your employer contribution.
So CPF is the best scheme for you to plan & manage wisely for the next 30 yrs for your retirement.

FYI, your take home pay est $1.3m accumulated for 30 yrs. Enough for a 4rm BTO flat est 250k to 350k (not yet include HDB grant of 8k to 80k).
Currently, the min full retirement sum (FRS) is $161k for yr 2016. By 2046, the FRS will be probably between $350k to $400k.

We need to thank our GREAT LEADER LKY ensuring with have more than enough clean water. Even if there is a drought, S'pore is prepared for it
WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF DROUGHT. How did our great leader done it ?

FOUR NATIONAL TAP
=================
1) Local Catchment Water,
2) Imported Water,
3)Reclaimed water (known as NEWater)
4) and Desalinated water

When I plan for my retirement at age 60. I make sure I have at least TWO sources of income.
1) CPF - The safest of all. But it require to think & plan long term to achieve it. You need to trust the system.
It is earning high interest , risk FREE & guarantee. Since CPF is the safest. You can say I AM NOT AFRAID OF ANOTHER BIG CRISIS.

2) property - rental . But it is not always smooth sailing (up & down & others problem)

3) Fixed income . either individual investment grade bond or bond fund etc

It will be enough for me to retire at a comfort level. Not luxury.

It is a risk for husband & wife both work in the same company. If it happen that the company is not doing well. Both will be retrenched.
So there is a saying that never put everything in one basket eg all asset in S'pore property. Our CPF $ is invested GLOBALLY
all over the world. So No concentrating risk .

Let say you have 761k (OA+SA) in your CPF at age 55. After minus the min full retirement sum (FRS) of 161k which will transfer
in your new RA acct. You left will 761k-161k = 600k. You withdraw a lump of $600k out & invest in ppty again even though u
already invested (maybe 1 or 2). Then you are put yourself into a CONCENTRATION RISK. The safest CPF money is gone
into another ppty. Trouble may come if interest rate raise very fast or a bad reccession comes.

minority

02-09-16, 10:10

teddybear

02-09-16, 13:03

cbsh38584

04-09-16, 10:20

A young graduate with a starting Salary of $2500 at age 25 is enough for you to retired with $1m in your CPF at age between 55 to 57. You dont need to be a HIGH INCOME EARNER OF $10k/mth. $2500 per mth at age 25 with 3% yearly till age 55 is enough. You just need plan & manage your CPF wisely by just transfering from CPF-OA (2.5%-3.5%) to CPF-SA (4%-5%) when you are young at age 25.

Just look at the $1m in your CPF at age 55-57 breakdown
============================================
325k (20% your own Salary accumulated for 30 yrs) + 276k(17% employer accumulated for 30 yrs )+ est 600k (accumulated compounded interest for 30 yrs).
Look at the 600k compounded interest you will earn for the next 30 yrs if you leave untouch + transfer from CPF-OA to CPF-SA.
You dont have to voluntary cash contribution unless you want your CPF acct to grow even bigger $1.2M to $1.6m on top of what you & your employer contribution.
So CPF is the best scheme for you to plan & manage wisely for the next 30 yrs for your retirement.

FYI, your take home pay est $1.3m accumulated for 30 yrs. Enough for a 4rm BTO flat est 250k to 350k (not yet include HDB grant of 8k to 80k).
Currently, the min full retirement sum (FRS) is $161k for yr 2016. By 2046, the FRS will be probably between $350k to $400k.

We need to thank our GREAT LEADER LKY ensuring with have more than enough clean water. Even if there is a drought, S'pore is prepared for it
WE ARE NOT AFRAID OF DROUGHT. How did our great leader done it ?

FOUR NATIONAL TAP
=================
1) Local Catchment Water,
2) Imported Water,
3)Reclaimed water (known as NEWater)
4) and Desalinated water

When I plan for my retirement at age 60. I make sure I have at least TWO sources of income.
1) CPF - The safest of all. But it require to think & plan long term to achieve it. You need to trust the system.
It is earning high interest , risk FREE & guarantee. Since CPF is the safest. You can say I AM NOT AFRAID OF ANOTHER BIG CRISIS.

2) property - rental . But it is not always smooth sailing (up & down & others problem)

3) Fixed income . either individual investment grade bond or bond fund etc

It will be enough for me to retire at a comfort level. Not luxury.

It is a risk for husband & wife both work in the same company. If it happen that the company is not doing well. Both will be retrenched.
So there is a saying that never put everything in one basket eg all asset in S'pore property. Our CPF $ is invested GLOBALLY
all over the world. So No concentrating risk .

Let say you have 761k (OA+SA) in your CPF at age 55. After minus the min full retirement sum (FRS) of 161k which will transfer
in your new RA acct. You left will 761k-161k = 600k. You withdraw a lump of $600k out & invest in ppty again even though u
already invested (maybe 1 or 2). Then you are put yourself into a CONCENTRATION RISK. The safest CPF money is gone
into another ppty. Trouble may come if interest rate raise very fast or a bad reccession comes.

For consective 3 weeeks, The Sunday times has been highlighting the important as well as the benefit of the CPF scheme.
As I said many times, you dont have to be a HIGH INCOME earner of 8k to 20k/mth to achieve $1m in your CPF acct by age
55 to age 57.

A fresh graduate earning $2500 at age 25 witha yealy 3% increment till age 55 will be able to achieve $1m by age 55 to 57.
But you need to wisely transfer your CPF-OA (2.5% to 3.5%) to CPF -SA *4% to 5%) every mth or yr. If you dont have
the financial mean at young age. U still can do it when you financial status improve. Dont need it when your min full retirement sum
is reached (now $161k) around age ate 40s. Do it as young as possible.

If U think that CPF life is not a attractive scheme by the govt. Just set aside the min FRS ($161k now) or even the very basic retirement
sum ($80.5k now ) with your 2-4rm HDB flat pledge. Not the Enhanced FRS (now $241k). The rest just leave to to earn between 2.5% to 4%
at OA & SA.

Some of them using CPF as
=====================
1. For Children local university (age 18 onward). The parent will hv to VC early at early age of 1 to 5.

2. For Children housing especially if they happen to marry early. The parent will hv to VC early at early age of 1 to 5.

3. For their children emergency fund in case when they grow up & decide to self employed & happen to be struggling.
At least they still have CPF in their acct which will SNOWBALL into hundred of thousand at age >30+.

4. Want to retire with $1m at age 55 to 60. RETIRED . HELLO PENSION. GOODBYE TENSION.

5. Legacy for KIDS as reported in today SUNDAY TIMES.

Pls plan & wisely manage your CPF at your comfort level. Dont drag it. SO DID THE WELL AHEAD BEFORE YOU ARE THIRSTY.

Procastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried.

Action is the measured of intelligence by NAPOLEAN

RETIRED. HELLO PENSION. GOODBYE TENSION

richwang

04-09-16, 13:20

After the next generation see 1M in their CPF account 30 years later (which only has purchasing power of $300K in today's money), they will regret for not using that money to buy one more properly.

If someone keeps advertising (and yet the underlying investment is reporting a loss recently), you know what is your best option.
Money doesn't come from thin air, be CPF or any investment, it needs to earn the return.
Bear in mind, the next financial crisis has not arrived yet, what would be the losses when it hits - track record of 2007-2008 round is something you could reflect.

If someone is dreaming that he can retire with 30 years later future value of 1M, he better uses his $600 skillsfuture credit to attend some basic financial training.

Kelonguni

04-09-16, 13:41

My relative recently got her CPF withdrawal at 65.

The amount was huge and exactly as promised 45 years ago after all her years of working.

$100,000.

Can you imagine how much that meant to people 30 years ago?

teddybear

04-09-16, 13:44

There is no free lunch in this world...............
If so good no need to advertise people will also find out and grab quickly................. :doh:
Need to advertise so much and still only tell half-truth, people will soon find out the full-truth.......... :miserable:

Actually, on the other hand, good things for the layman like mortgage loan to 80 years old, LTV 80% regardless of number of properties you own, etc, all these good things were sooner or later being stopped or removed, so good things don't need advertisement and also don't last, only non-good-things need advertising and will persist for long long time.......... :frog:

After the next generation see 1M in their CPF account 30 years later (which only has purchasing power of $300K in today's money), they will regret for not using that money to buy one more properly.

If someone keeps advertising (and yet the underlying investment is reporting a loss recently), you know what is your best option.
Money doesn't come from thin air, be CPF or any investment, it needs to earn the return.
Bear in mind, the next financial crisis has not arrived yet, what would be the losses when it hits - track record of 2007-2008 round is something you could reflect.

If someone is dreaming that he can retire with 30 years later future value of 1M, he better uses his $600 skillsfuture credit to attend some basic financial training.

richwang

04-09-16, 13:47

If u had $100k 45 years ago, you could buy a property in D10?
People can really get confused about present value and future value of money when it spans 30-45 years!

teddybear

04-09-16, 13:47

It doesn't matter how much $100,000 meant 30 years ago, because $100,000 NOW is even less than CPF min sum of $161,000, which means that she will be very poor and below poverty rate (since poverty rate for retirees at 65 years old is presumably below $161,000)....... :miserable:

My relative recently got her CPF withdrawal at 65.

The amount was huge and exactly as promised 45 years ago after all her years of working.

$100,000.

Can you imagine how much that meant to people 30 years ago?

teddybear

04-09-16, 13:50

With $100k 45 years ago, you could buy a piece of freehold land that is of size about 167,000 sq ft (about 2.9x of a standard-size football field)!!!

If u had $100k 45 years ago, you could buy a property in D9?
People can really get confused about present value and future value of money when it spans 30-45 years!

Kelonguni

04-09-16, 13:55

She withdrew 100k. The rest is minimum sum.

Not really that poor.

It doesn't matter how much $100,000 meant 30 years ago, because $100,000 NOW is even less than CPF min sum of $161,000, which means that she will be very poor and below poverty rate (since poverty rate for retirees at 65 years old is presumably below $161,000)....... :miserable:

Kelonguni

04-09-16, 14:00

Another two relatives will retire in a few years time.

One has close to zero CPF because he has has a viable business and much more income than me. The other will not meet minimum sum so may be able to withdraw 5k.

Damn, why my relatives all so CPF poor.

richwang

04-09-16, 14:06

Here are some hard numbers you can ask your primary school kids to memories:

100k today, after 45 years (the est working life span), it will become:

Rate: 2%, close to 250k
Rate: 3%, close to 400k
Rate: 4%, close to 600k
Rate: 5%, close to 900k
Rate: 6%, close to 1.4M
Rate: 8%, 3M+
Rate: 10%, 7M+

Our current primary school education is focused on teaching plus, minus, mutiple and divide, but the real world works in exponential.

invigorated

04-09-16, 15:45

richwang

04-09-16, 19:09

Well, the reality is most audlts will be surprised when you show these figures. So there is no harm for young kids to memories these "facts" while they are good at it. They can then "understand" the calculation at a later stage in study and life.

For those gifted, let me add two more:

Rate: 15% 50M+
Rate: 20% 300M++

teddybear

04-09-16, 20:08

Not to mention kids, even adults also don't know that:
CPF FRS = $161,000 at 55 years old will give Capital = $251,000 at 65 years old;
Monthly payout = $1300;
If payout terminates 15 years later (when you are 80 years old),
actual return = -0.9% (and not 4-6% that they were told or assumed to be)!

No wonder so many never get rich because they can't even get their figures right! :doh:

Compound interest is taught at the secondary levels, just to add. Primary school kids will find it difficult to grapple with this.

richwang

04-09-16, 21:54

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022616/negative-interest-rates-4-unintended-consequences.asp

Negative Interest Rates: 4 Unintended Consequences:
1. Hoarding of Cash
2. Changes to Spending Behavior
3. Asset Bubbles as Banks "Pay Your Mortgage"
4. Currency Wars

Kelonguni

04-09-16, 22:06

The one that defies my logic is why hoard cash?

At least put in CPF right?

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022616/negative-interest-rates-4-unintended-consequences.asp

Negative Interest Rates: 4 Unintended Consequences:
1. Hoarding of Cash
2. Changes to Spending Behavior
3. Asset Bubbles as Banks "Pay Your Mortgage"
4. Currency Wars

richwang

04-09-16, 22:14

The one that defies my logic is why hoard cash?

At least put in CPF right?

Once you put in, you cannot get out (until age 65). After that, it pays negative (if you cannot live beyond 80).

Cash is king when you are figuring out what to invest next.

Kelonguni

04-09-16, 22:24

If put in OA anytime can show hand also.

It's a good temp measure if you have excess for withdrawal or housing.

Once you put in, you cannot get out (until age 65). After that, it pays negative (if you cannot live beyond 80).

Cash is king when you are figuring out what to invest next.

minority

05-09-16, 20:55

The most important issue is: It is their money, and if $300 pm payout is deemed sufficient (by the very people dictating CPF retirement account quantum) for a person to survive, why then should these very people dictate that the rest MUST put so much extra $ into CPF to get $1300 pm payout, for what? :panda:

For the man on the street, if he/she want to leave extra $ in the bank rather than in the CPF and he is happy with that, what right do you or others have to tell them that they must put in CPF?
Furthermore, actually they are the smart ones if they put extra $ in the bank rather than CPF Life because the CPF Life is giving NEGATIVE return if they can only live till average age of 80 years old (for men) and 85 years old (for women)!
From above, we know you are just talking cock and making some bull-shit............. :smiley_simmons:

Dont come and talk cock lah. The government dont do anything and u have a 85yr old who threw all his $ away by 70 depending begging u will say the same? yeah he was happy throwing his $$ ard from 55 to 70. after that? whos problem will that be? u will KPKB government must help!!! so dont come talk cock lah government have a social responsibility to ensure everyone can help themselves and help those who fall through. so dont come say becoz 10% or the so call financially educated should kpkb the system is no good. daming the rest of the 90% to crap. when when that happen kpkb blame government.

WORM like you do not deserve to reside in Singapore. LEAVE lah.. if here is so bad. WHY AER U STILL HERE WASTING THE LAND SPACE?

teddybear

05-09-16, 21:06

minority,
Government helping Singaporeans is it?

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

OK, so minority, you are saying that government is "helping" Singaporeans by taking away their retirement money from their CPF Life (hence resulting in NEGATIVE return) if they can only live till 80 years old (about 50% of men) is it????
Is this the reason why they need to keep increasing CPF Min Sum saying it is not enough? :tsk-tsk:

Dont come and talk cock lah. The government dont do anything and u have a 85yr old who threw all his $ away by 70 depending begging u will say the same? yeah he was happy throwing his $$ ard from 55 to 70. after that? whos problem will that be? u will KPKB government must help!!! so dont come talk cock lah government have a social responsibility to ensure everyone can help themselves and help those who fall through. so dont come say becoz 10% or the so call financially educated should kpkb the system is no good. daming the rest of the 90% to crap. when when that happen kpkb blame government.

WORM like you do not deserve to reside in Singapore. LEAVE lah.. if here is so bad. WHY AER U STILL HERE WASTING THE LAND SPACE?

(1) "Currently, the min full retirement sum (FRS) is $161k for yr 2016. By 2046, the FRS will be probably between $350k to $400k."
I think you raise an interesting issue here. $161k FRS will give payout of $1300 pm for man. Say by 2046 FRS is $350k-400k, why need so high FRS? Isn't the monthly subsidy for the poor only $300 pm, and if this is considered enough by the Government for a person to survive, why need to insist the rest to put aside $1300 pm?

(2) "1) CPF" - "You need to trust the system. It is earning high interest".
Again, what you said do not tally with reality.

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

So, question: How to trust the CPF system when they keep CLAIMING that they give you 4-6% return p.a. BUT in reality they are giving you NEGATIVE return when in above case a man can live till average age of 80 years old (meaning that about 50% of people or even many more will get NEGATIVE return from CPF Life!)

minority

06-09-16, 01:35

teddybear

06-09-16, 20:22

minority,

Oh ho ho, now you finally admit that just because you think you pay interest to people for locking in their CPF money of $161k from 55 years old to 65 years old, then you can start to DON'T pay interest from 65 years old for their $250k until they die at or before 80 years old and even start taking money away from their CPF Life??? :simmering:

minority, you lied! Caught you lying again! :p

Why are u bullshiting us negative interest from 160K become 250K is what? dont bull shit. thats 1.56 x!! and why u never say pay out till death? people who live beyond 80 any beyond? u simply just ignore this and talk cock.

minority,
Government helping Singaporeans is it?

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

OK, so minority, you are saying that government is "helping" Singaporeans by taking away their retirement money from their CPF Life (hence resulting in NEGATIVE return) if they can only live till 80 years old (about 50% of men) is it????
Is this the reason why they need to keep increasing CPF Min Sum saying it is not enough? :tsk-tsk:

teddybear

06-09-16, 20:33

minority,

CPF Life payout until death? Oh ho ho, don't come bullshit again! Why not you tell us the truth about "pay out until death"?
About 50% of men can only live till 80 years old, and they not only will NOT get paid any more interest from 65 years old onwards but they will have their CPF Life capital deducted by CPF if they die at or before 80 years old! So sickening! Still dare to tell half-truth that CPF Life pays 4% interest!

minority,
tell us, how many people will get 4% interest from their CPF Life's fund?
Ok, correct me if I am wrong:
(1) About 1% of men will get 4% interest from CPF Life.
(2) About 50% of men will have to pay CPF interests for dying at 80 years old or younger.
(3) About 49% of men will probably get interests of only 1.x% for all their money in their CPF Life as most will die younger than 93 years old.

Look at the statistics and figures above, seems that there are a lot of profits that CPF can made indeed!
Is this the real reason why they refused to create a separate financial account that need audits for CPF Life?

The above just show that you, minority, lied! Caught you lying again! :p

minority,

Oh ho ho, now you finally admit that just because you think you pay interest to people for locking in their CPF money of $161k from 55 years old to 65 years old, then you can start to DON'T pay interest from 65 years old for their $250k until they die at or before 80 years old and even start taking money away from their CPF Life??? :simmering:

minority, you lied! Caught you lying again! :p

Why are u bullshiting us negative interest from 160K become 250K is what? dont bull shit. thats 1.56 x!! and why u never say pay out till death? people who live beyond 80 any beyond? u simply just ignore this and talk cock.

cbsh38584

07-09-16, 06:46

For consective 3 weeeks, The Sunday times has been highlighting the important as well as the benefit of the CPF scheme.
As I said many times, you dont have to be a HIGH INCOME earner of 8k to 20k/mth to achieve $1m in your CPF acct by age
55 to age 57.

A fresh graduate earning $2500 at age 25 witha yealy 3% increment till age 55 will be able to achieve $1m by age 55 to 57.
But you need to wisely transfer your CPF-OA (2.5% to 3.5%) to CPF -SA *4% to 5%) every mth or yr. If you dont have
the financial mean at young age. U still can do it when you financial status improve. Dont need it when your min full retirement sum
is reached (now $161k) around age ate 40s. Do it as young as possible.

If U think that CPF life is not a attractive scheme by the govt. Just set aside the min FRS ($161k now) or even the very basic retirement
sum ($80.5k now ) with your 2-4rm HDB flat pledge. Not the Enhanced FRS (now $241k). The rest just leave to to earn between 2.5% to 4%
at OA & SA.

Some of them using CPF as
=====================
1. For Children local university (age 18 onward). The parent will hv to VC early at early age of 1 to 5.

2. For Children housing especially if they happen to marry early. The parent will hv to VC early at early age of 1 to 5.

3. For their children emergency fund in case when they grow up & decide to self employed & happen to be struggling.
At least they still have CPF in their acct which will SNOWBALL into hundred of thousand at age >30+.

4. Want to retire with $1m at age 55 to 60. RETIRED . HELLO PENSION. GOODBYE TENSION.

5. Legacy for KIDS as reported in today SUNDAY TIMES.

Pls plan & wisely manage your CPF at your comfort level. Dont drag it. SO DID THE WELL AHEAD BEFORE YOU ARE THIRSTY.

Procastination is the grave in which opportunity is buried.

Action is the measured of intelligence by NAPOLEAN

RETIRED. HELLO PENSION. GOODBYE TENSION

Considerations on How To Manage Your CPF Money when young - Purchase Properties (HDB or private) with CPF money
=============================================================================================
If u are temporary Ignorant about CPF snowball compounding interest of 4-5% when very young is not a problem . The real problem is most people remains ignorant for
really very long time until it is too late (>age 50) . The worst is that his ignorant about CPF snowball compounding interest of 4-5% continue to his grown up children which
they also dont bother about it.

Let say for whatever reason you still want to use CPF OA for housing even though you have the financial capablilty to use CASH. Or maybe you prefer to CPF-OA (35% ) to invest
into a higher risk higher return investment as 2.5% seem to be very very easy to BEAT. But not many CPF investors are able to beat 2.5%.

Let say at age 35. Both of you (Husband /wife) have a combine CPF-OA (2.5-3.5%) of $200k. Maybe CPF-SA (4-5%) est 35k each.
HDB housing loan 300k @2.6%. So monthly payment using CPF-OA est $1360.

1. How you manage your transfer of your CPF-OA to CPF-SA.
Leave $33k (2 yrs loan amt ) of your combine CPF-OA for your HDB housing loan . The rest consider transfer the balance from
CPF-OA to CPF-SA to meet the full retirement sum (now 161k) as young as possible.

2. Or leave $66k ( 4 yrs loan amt) or your combine CPF-OA for your housing loan. The rest consider transfer the bal from
CPF-OA to CPF-SA to meet the full retirement sum (now 161k) as young as possible.

You can do the same as your private ppty at your comfort level. If you dont have a plan to prepare for your retirement & you screw it up when young.
You are likely to plan to fail.

Kelonguni

07-09-16, 10:38

Arcachon

07-09-16, 19:19

Just to note that a person say at 35 years old with 100,000 in CPF SA today saving 1200 per month throughout 30 years can indeed achieve 1.1mil.

But 1.1 million 30 years later is equal to 600k today (2% inflation throughout), or 350k today (4% inflation). Much still depends on the economic policies.

Correction, official inflation 2 to 4 %, unofficial inflation is a lot more. Money printing since 2008 is even more.

Jun 2006 can use 108,000 to downpayment for 2 Bedroom at Southbank @ 535,000

minority

07-09-16, 22:41

teddybear

07-09-16, 23:00

minority,

Oh no no, more lies from you again?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy annuity from insurance company???

Can you tell us:
1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

What is "bethrow amount"? I have never heard of that before! Ha ha ha! "bethrow"? Or is it CPF Life members get "beheaded" (or chop carrot-head)? :highly_amused:

CPF Life is so big that instead of buying annuity from another insurance company, CPF Life members can basically insure each other so that those who live shorter life compensate those who live longer, that is already an "annuity", and a cheaper option than buying annuity from another company, so why still need to pay premiums to buy "annuity" from an unknown insurance company?
Don't come bullshit lah! :tongue-fingers:

No answers to all the above questions? See, more lies exposed! Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!! :hornybastard:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

minority,

CPF Life payout until death? Oh ho ho, don't come bullshit again! Why not you tell us the truth about "pay out until death"?
About 50% of men can only live till 80 years old, and they not only will NOT get paid any more interest from 65 years old onwards but they will have their CPF Life capital deducted by CPF if they die at or before 80 years old! So sickening! Still dare to tell half-truth that CPF Life pays 4% interest!

minority,
tell us, how many people will get 4% interest from their CPF Life's fund?
Ok, correct me if I am wrong:
(1) About 1% of men will get 4% interest from CPF Life.
(2) About 50% of men will have to pay CPF interests for dying at 80 years old or younger.
(3) About 49% of men will probably get interests of only 1.x% for all their money in their CPF Life as most will die younger than 93 years old.

Look at the statistics and figures above, seems that there are a lot of profits that CPF can made indeed!
Is this the real reason why they refused to create a separate financial account that need audits for CPF Life?

The above just show that you, minority, lied! Caught you lying again! :p

teddybear

11-09-16, 17:37

minority,

So many days already and you still have NO answers to our questions on your assertion that CPF Life buying annuity from insurance company?

Ha ha ha! Lies exposed and no way to answer to cover it up is it? :triumphant:

minority,

Oh no no, more lies from you again?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy annuity from insurance company???

Can you tell us:
1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

What is "bethrow amount"? I have never heard of that before! Ha ha ha! "bethrow"? Or is it CPF Life members get "beheaded" (or chop carrot-head)? :highly_amused:

CPF Life is so big that instead of buying annuity from another insurance company, CPF Life members can basically insure each other so that those who live shorter life compensate those who live longer, that is already an "annuity", and a cheaper option than buying annuity from another company, so why still need to pay premiums to buy "annuity" from an unknown insurance company?
Don't come bullshit lah! :tongue-fingers:

No answers to all the above questions? See, more lies exposed! Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!! :hornybastard:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

minority

11-09-16, 20:44

don't come and talk cock sing song lah.

why u never mention the betroth on death before 80? why u never mention payment is till death? if the guy lived to 95 how? Why u never mention initial sum is 161. in the end 251 is lock in as a annuity? why u selective pick 80 yrs and ignore the rest? Coz u are out to deceive.

and CPF provide annuity how they do it? it have to be parked into some form of investment that guarantee the risk the people have . i.e like a insurance annuity . so u mean u buy a annuity outside u can get more gain ? SO PLS SHOW US LEH!! U CAN GET BETTER DEAL THEN CPF ON ANNUITY!!!! AT NO RISK AT ALL!! PLS SHOW US !!!

DONT COME AND BULLSHIT CHEERRY PICK YOUR SHIT HERE LAH!

teddybear

12-09-16, 00:34

minority,

You the one who first claimed that CPF buys annuity using CPF Life money from insurance company. Now you trying to avoid my questions regarding your suspicious claim? :triumphant:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

Then come more lies, bullshit, false accusations, more half-truths and beat around the bush to avoid answering questions that poke holes in your claims again? :tongue-fingers:

If you don't know how annuity works and why the average return and payout should be closely related to average age or average life-span of men and women, please ask, don't just lie without understanding all about annuity just to cover up hard-truth and facts about poor return paid by CPF Life after a person pass 65 years old............... :hornybastard:

don't come and talk cock sing song lah.

why u never mention the betroth on death before 80? why u never mention payment is till death? if the guy lived to 95 how? Why u never mention initial sum is 161. in the end 251 is lock in as a annuity? why u selective pick 80 yrs and ignore the rest? Coz u are out to deceive.

and CPF provide annuity how they do it? it have to be parked into some form of investment that guarantee the risk the people have . i.e like a insurance annuity . so u mean u buy a annuity outside u can get more gain ? SO PLS SHOW US LEH!! U CAN GET BETTER DEAL THEN CPF ON ANNUITY!!!! AT NO RISK AT ALL!! PLS SHOW US !!!

DONT COME AND BULLSHIT CHEERRY PICK YOUR SHIT HERE LAH!

minority,

Oh no no, more lies from you again?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy annuity from insurance company???

Can you tell us:
1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

What is "bethrow amount"? I have never heard of that before! Ha ha ha! "bethrow"? Or is it CPF Life members get "beheaded" (or chop carrot-head)? :highly_amused:

CPF Life is so big that instead of buying annuity from another insurance company, CPF Life members can basically insure each other so that those who live shorter life compensate those who live longer, that is already an "annuity", and a cheaper option than buying annuity from another company, so why still need to pay premiums to buy "annuity" from an unknown insurance company?
Don't come bullshit lah! :tongue-fingers:

No answers to all the above questions? See, more lies exposed! Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!! :hornybastard:

teddybear

15-09-16, 20:57

Again, after catching minority lying through his teeth about CPF Life, he will keep quiet and don't answer our questions as though nothing happened......... :smiley_simmons:

but we can expect that he will be back again with more bullshit, lies, half-truths again...................... :doh:

Don't think minority or anybody else can answer the following questions if CPF really bought annuity from insurance company for CPF Life?:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

However, all these are the most pertinent questions regarding how CPF manages CPF Life, determines the payout, how much accumulated unpaid reserves there are in CPF Life etc! As of now, CPF Life seems to be a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc??????? :panda:

minority,

You the one who first claimed that CPF buys annuity using CPF Life money from insurance company. Now you trying to avoid my questions regarding your suspicious claim? :triumphant:

Then come more lies, bullshit, false accusations, more half-truths and beat around the bush to avoid answering questions that poke holes in your claims again? :tongue-fingers:

If you don't know how annuity works and why the average return and payout should be closely related to average age or average life-span of men and women, please ask, don't just lie without understanding all about annuity just to cover up hard-truth and facts about poor return paid by CPF Life after a person pass 65 years old............... :hornybastard:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

minority

16-09-16, 12:04

Again, after catching minority lying through his teeth about CPF Life, he will keep quiet and don't answer our questions as though nothing happened......... :smiley_simmons:

but we can expect that he will be back again with more bullshit, lies, half-truths again...................... :doh:

Don't think minority or anybody else can answer the following questions if CPF really bought annuity from insurance company for CPF Life?:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

However, all these are the most pertinent questions regarding how CPF manages CPF Life, determines the payout, how much accumulated unpaid reserves there are in CPF Life etc! As of now, CPF Life seems to be a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc??????? :panda:

Then with your GOD LIKE BULLSHIT Can you explain how CPF LEAVE THE MONEY IN A fix instrument mediate the risk? people who dies before 80 and live to 95? WHY YOU NEVER MENTION THOSE? you cherry pick your cray and claim it facts?

WAT A LOAD OF LIES AND BULLSHIT WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM U?????

teddybear

16-09-16, 20:17

minority,
Why you are bullshitting about everything else except answering the questions regarding the claim you made:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

Since we don't know that those money in CPF Life is used to buy annuity from insurance company except you, then could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

How CPF manages CPF Life and provides the payout? We have no idea, so need to ask you since you know so much.
We can only guess that CPF Life is like an annuity program itself and CPF uses money in CPF Life to invest and made payout, and it is like using money of Peter (who live shorter life) to pay Paul (who say happen to live longer life). So, I thought CPF Life members are cross-insuring each other and no insurance company is involved. So, how can what you said about CPF Life buying annuity from insurance company be true?
However, the sad truth is that if a man live till average age of 80 years old, CPF Life you NOTHING more than you put in at 65 years old and instead deduct money from your account! In this case, there must have been a lot of accumulated unpaid reserves in CPF Life right?
As of now, CPF Life seems to be like a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made??????? :panda:

Then with your GOD LIKE BULLSHIT Can you explain how CPF LEAVE THE MONEY IN A fix instrument mediate the risk? people who dies before 80 and live to 95? WHY YOU NEVER MENTION THOSE? you cherry pick your cray and claim it facts?

WAT A LOAD OF LIES AND BULLSHIT WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM U?????

Again, after catching minority lying through his teeth about CPF Life, he will keep quiet and don't answer our questions as though nothing happened......... :smiley_simmons:

but we can expect that he will be back again with more bullshit, lies, half-truths again...................... :doh:

Don't think minority or anybody else can answer the following questions if CPF really bought annuity from insurance company for CPF Life?:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

However, all these are the most pertinent questions regarding how CPF manages CPF Life, determines the payout, how much accumulated unpaid reserves there are in CPF Life etc! As of now, CPF Life seems to be a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc??????? :panda:

Arcachon

19-09-16, 21:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJ2sJVEwQU

Arcachon

19-09-16, 21:04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22yC3C2jYhc

Arcachon

19-09-16, 21:05

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQsLhauQ6BI

Arcachon

19-09-16, 21:16

CPF life 2008.

Arcachon

19-09-16, 21:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LamFOzW0jLY

Arcachon

19-09-16, 22:22

Very basic and simple way to explain CPF Life.

teddybear

19-09-16, 22:34

Still never explain what we want to know:
- Where is the CPF Life financial account?
- Did CPF really buy annuity from insurance company for CPF Life members? If so, which company, how much etc?
- Why you get negative return for your CPF Life money (after 65 years old) even when you can live till average life-span?
- How much accumulated unpaid reserves are there now in CPF Life?

Very basic and simple way to explain CPF Life.

teddybear

20-09-16, 00:31

The lying minority has gone into hiding after exposing his lie again which he can't answer without us catching him spinning more lies?????????? :tongue-fingers:

minority,
Why you are bullshitting about everything else except answering the questions regarding the claim you made:

Since we don't know that those money in CPF Life is used to buy annuity from insurance company except you, then could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

How CPF manages CPF Life and provides the payout? We have no idea, so need to ask you since you know so much.
We can only guess that CPF Life is like an annuity program itself and CPF uses money in CPF Life to invest and made payout, and it is like using money of Peter (who live shorter life) to pay Paul (who say happen to live longer life). So, I thought CPF Life members are cross-insuring each other and no insurance company is involved. So, how can what you said about CPF Life buying annuity from insurance company be true?
However, the sad truth is that if a man live till average age of 80 years old, CPF Life you NOTHING more than you put in at 65 years old and instead deduct money from your account! In this case, there must have been a lot of accumulated unpaid reserves in CPF Life right?
As of now, CPF Life seems to be like a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made??????? :panda:

minority

20-09-16, 04:09

The lying minority has gone into hiding after exposing his lie again which he can't answer without us catching him spinning more lies?????????? :tongue-fingers:

expose lie? YOUR F**KING BULLSGHIT CRAP? WHY DONT YOU ANSWER WHY YOU CHEER PICK THE DATES TO PEPERTRATE YOUR BULLSHIT???

WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT BETROTH FOR DEATH BEFORE 80? WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT LIFE PAYOUT TILL DEATH WHICH CAN BE BEYOND 80.

SO DONT COME AND TELL ME ABOUT LIES LAH. YOU ARE THE BLOODY NO.! LIAR..

you think LIM PAY SO FREE TO KEEP READING YOUR BULL... I rather spend my time making $$ From APPLE THEN COME READ YOUR LIES.

minority

20-09-16, 04:10

minority,
Why you are bullshitting about everything else except answering the questions regarding the claim you made:

Since we don't know that those money in CPF Life is used to buy annuity from insurance company except you, then could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

How CPF manages CPF Life and provides the payout? We have no idea, so need to ask you since you know so much.
We can only guess that CPF Life is like an annuity program itself and CPF uses money in CPF Life to invest and made payout, and it is like using money of Peter (who live shorter life) to pay Paul (who say happen to live longer life). So, I thought CPF Life members are cross-insuring each other and no insurance company is involved. So, how can what you said about CPF Life buying annuity from insurance company be true?
However, the sad truth is that if a man live till average age of 80 years old, CPF Life you NOTHING more than you put in at 65 years old and instead deduct money from your account! In this case, there must have been a lot of accumulated unpaid reserves in CPF Life right?
As of now, CPF Life seems to be like a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made??????? :panda:

DONT CHANGE THE QUESTION LAH! WHY YOU CHEERY PICK DATES TO LIE SAY CPF LIFE BUYERS LOST MONEY?? YOU F**KING LIAR!!!!!

minority

20-09-16, 04:29

http://dollarsandsense.sg/is-the-cpf-lifescheme-really-that-bad/

The CPF Lifelong Income For the Elderly (CPF LIFE) Scheme and the Minimum Sum (MS) comes as a retirement package made compulsory for Singaporeans.
DollarsAndSense.sg evaluates this scheme from two different perspectives:

Pension
Investment
Assumptions:

1) Drawdown age remains at 65 years old

2) Payout remains at S$1,200

3) Current interest rates of CPF will remain unchanged

4) The minimum sum of S$155,000 is attained at age 55 years old

5) Life expectancy based on World Bank is at 82.1 years old

6) Ten year average inflation based on World Bank at 2.73%

Results:

1) The amount accumulated at age 65 is approximately S$216,000

2) The effective interest rate is 3.32% per year

3) It takes 21 years and 4 months to completely wipe out the S$216,000

4) There will still be S$67,100 in the CPF, when an individual survives until 82.1 years old

AS A PENSION:

1) The drawdown will last way past the average life expectancy

Even if CPF LIFE does not pay perpetuity, it will last until age 86 (65yrs+21yrs 4mns) years old. This means that as a pension fund, it has provisioned for the potential increment of life expectancy and continuously providing at a constant S$1,200/month to allow the individual to make long-term personal financial planning.

2) You will have a sizable sum left over for your beneficiaries

If an individual were to meet the life expectancy of 82.1 years old, there would still be a sum of S$67,100 bequeathed to their children or beneficiaries.

The prowess of the compounding effect allows individual to continuously earn interest rates throughout these years on the initial S$155,000. This explains why they can have such a sizable amount even at age 82.1 years old for their beneficiaries.

Definitely, if the individual lives way pass 86 years old, he/she should not expect any amount bequeathed to their beneficiaries due to the simple fact that they have exhausted the money in their CPF accounts.

3) Perpetuity!

CPF LIFE provides a monthly payout starting from your drawdown age (65 years old) for as long as you live. Our government has finally provided a loophole for us to “take advantage” of them. Live as long as possible to continuously receive that S$1,200 −FOREVER!

Conclusion as a Pension

The CPF Board has taken upon its shoulders to pay a relatively fixed amount per month for as long as the individual lives. It provides a constant cash flow and allows for appropriate personal finance management. This is equivalent to purchasing a perpetual bond that pays a monthly fixed amount. The advantage: Our Aaa rated government guarantees this.

AS AN INVESTMENT:

(For the more finance-savvy people)

A) The Net Present Value of CPF LIFE is S$10,000 (if perpetuity is excluded)

Future Value (Age 65): S$215,994

Periods: 10 years

Discount rate: 2.73%

Present value: S$165,002

Initial investment: S$155,000

Net present value (NPV): S$10,002

The discount rate should reflect a few factors (inflation, credit risk, liquidity risk, maturity risk, risk-free rate, etc.). However, to keep things simple we will peg it to the inflation rate due to the fact that other risks are not significant with respect to CPF LIFE anyway.

We took the 10-year average inflation rate, from 2003 to 2013, as an input. This provides a NPV of S$10,002.

B) The Net Present Value of CPF LIFE is over S$372,000 (if perpetuity is included)

Perpetual monthly payout: S$1,200

Perpetual annual payout: S$14,400

Discount rate: 2.73%

Present value: S$527,473

Initial Investment: S$155,000

Net present value (NPV): S$372,473

The 10, 20 and 30-year average inflation rates are 2.73%, 1.89% and 1.84% respectively. We took the most conservative inflation rate of 2.73% as the discount rate.

CPF LIFE would yield a net present value of S$372,473!

C) CPF LIFE > comparable securities!

Table 1

Length of SGS Bond 10-Year 15-Year 20-Year 30-Year
Coupon Rate 3.000% 2.875% 3.375% 2.750%
Yield at
2-Jan-15 2.33% 2.66% 2.83% 2.93%
5-Jan-15 2.31% 2.65% 2.79% 2.89%
6-Jan-15 2.25% 2.56% 2.72% 2.81%
7-Jan-15 2.16% 2.46% 2.62% 2.70%
8-Jan-15 2.17% 2.48% 2.62% 2.70%
9-Jan-15 2.17% 2.44% 2.57% 2.65%
Average yield 2.23% 2.54% 2.69% 2.78%
(Source: Monetary Authority of Singapore)

Table 1 shows comparable securities with CPF LIFE. The average yield range from 2.23% to 2.78% per annum for the 10-30 year Singapore Government Securities while the effective interest rate for CPF LIFE is 3.32% per year.

Furthermore, CPF LIFE provides for liquidity because they will provide a monthly payout. This reduces the duration and convexity risk inherent in all fixed income securities.

Conclusion as an Investment

We cannot reject the CPF LIFE “project”. However, the consolation is that CPF LIFE provides a high NPV of S$372,473. When compared to similar securities, the pension outrightly overshadows them with a much higher effective interest rate. To top it all off, CPF LIFE provides for monthly payouts as well.

In a nutshell

The government is not going to be responsible for our daily expenses and personal finance planning. There are over 5.4 million people in Singapore and 3+ million Singapore residents, so do not expect them to “babysit” us when we get older.

CPF LIFE should not be your ONLY retirement plan. You should always have multiple sources of income streams and always reduce your expenses from wants to needs. Having said that, do remember to pamper yourself once in a while!

Arcachon

20-09-16, 09:17

Very good, I like.

But if bank can loan me money I will still buy property.

teddybear

20-09-16, 21:25

minority,

You are the one cherry picking so as to create a web of lies isn't it?
First you refused to answer our below questions to clarify on your claim:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

By refusing to answer questions on your claim, we can safely presume that what you CLAIMED is a LIE right?! :hororr:

Then, you mentioned about "BETROTH for death before 80", and I am asking you again, what is "BETROTH"?
I check Dictionary and it said: "betroth - formally engage (someone) to be married.".
So what has "BETROTH" to do with CPF Life here??? :tongue-fingers:

So you get exposed with you lies and now come up with so many excuses to justify why you don't need to answer to your lies??? :middle-finger:

expose lie? YOUR F**KING BULLSGHIT CRAP? WHY DONT YOU ANSWER WHY YOU CHEER PICK THE DATES TO PEPERTRATE YOUR BULLSHIT???

WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT BETROTH FOR DEATH BEFORE 80? WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT LIFE PAYOUT TILL DEATH WHICH CAN BE BEYOND 80.

SO DONT COME AND TELL ME ABOUT LIES LAH. YOU ARE THE BLOODY NO.! LIAR..

you think LIM PAY SO FREE TO KEEP READING YOUR BULL... I rather spend my time making $$ From APPLE THEN COME READ YOUR LIES.

minority,
Why you are bullshitting about everything else except answering the questions regarding the claim you made:

Since we don't know that those money in CPF Life is used to buy annuity from insurance company except you, then could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

How CPF manages CPF Life and provides the payout? We have no idea, so need to ask you since you know so much.
We can only guess that CPF Life is like an annuity program itself and CPF uses money in CPF Life to invest and made payout, and it is like using money of Peter (who live shorter life) to pay Paul (who say happen to live longer life). So, I thought CPF Life members are cross-insuring each other and no insurance company is involved. So, how can what you said about CPF Life buying annuity from insurance company be true?
However, the sad truth is that if a man live till average age of 80 years old, CPF Life you NOTHING more than you put in at 65 years old and instead deduct money from your account! In this case, there must have been a lot of accumulated unpaid reserves in CPF Life right?
As of now, CPF Life seems to be like a black-box, and its financial account is a state secret? Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made??????? :panda:

teddybear

20-09-16, 21:36

minority,

Don't come to try to mislead people with long essays and quote below sentences to mislead people:

"1) The amount accumulated at age 65 is approximately S$216,000
2) The effective interest rate is 3.32% per year"

And come trying to bluff Singaporeans as though all are idiots!
FACT is, a man who can live till 80 years old only will only get effective interest rate of -0.8% (yes NEGATIVE!) from 65 years old onwards!

If you still want to argue that above is not TRUE, then please show us the calculation to proof that the effective return/interest for a man getting $1300 pm payout from 65 years old to 80 years old is not NEGATIVE! :middle-finger:

http://dollarsandsense.sg/is-the-cpf-lifescheme-really-that-bad/

The CPF Lifelong Income For the Elderly (CPF LIFE) Scheme and the Minimum Sum (MS) comes as a retirement package made compulsory for Singaporeans.
DollarsAndSense.sg evaluates this scheme from two different perspectives:

Pension
Investment
Assumptions:

1) Drawdown age remains at 65 years old

2) Payout remains at S$1,200

3) Current interest rates of CPF will remain unchanged

4) The minimum sum of S$155,000 is attained at age 55 years old

5) Life expectancy based on World Bank is at 82.1 years old

6) Ten year average inflation based on World Bank at 2.73%

Results:

1) The amount accumulated at age 65 is approximately S$216,000

2) The effective interest rate is 3.32% per year

3) It takes 21 years and 4 months to completely wipe out the S$216,000

4) There will still be S$67,100 in the CPF, when an individual survives until 82.1 years old

AS A PENSION:

1) The drawdown will last way past the average life expectancy

Even if CPF LIFE does not pay perpetuity, it will last until age 86 (65yrs+21yrs 4mns) years old. This means that as a pension fund, it has provisioned for the potential increment of life expectancy and continuously providing at a constant S$1,200/month to allow the individual to make long-term personal financial planning.

2) You will have a sizable sum left over for your beneficiaries

If an individual were to meet the life expectancy of 82.1 years old, there would still be a sum of S$67,100 bequeathed to their children or beneficiaries.

The prowess of the compounding effect allows individual to continuously earn interest rates throughout these years on the initial S$155,000. This explains why they can have such a sizable amount even at age 82.1 years old for their beneficiaries.

Definitely, if the individual lives way pass 86 years old, he/she should not expect any amount bequeathed to their beneficiaries due to the simple fact that they have exhausted the money in their CPF accounts.

3) Perpetuity!

CPF LIFE provides a monthly payout starting from your drawdown age (65 years old) for as long as you live. Our government has finally provided a loophole for us to “take advantage” of them. Live as long as possible to continuously receive that S$1,200 −FOREVER!

Conclusion as a Pension

The CPF Board has taken upon its shoulders to pay a relatively fixed amount per month for as long as the individual lives. It provides a constant cash flow and allows for appropriate personal finance management. This is equivalent to purchasing a perpetual bond that pays a monthly fixed amount. The advantage: Our Aaa rated government guarantees this.

AS AN INVESTMENT:

(For the more finance-savvy people)

A) The Net Present Value of CPF LIFE is S$10,000 (if perpetuity is excluded)

Future Value (Age 65): S$215,994

Periods: 10 years

Discount rate: 2.73%

Present value: S$165,002

Initial investment: S$155,000

Net present value (NPV): S$10,002

The discount rate should reflect a few factors (inflation, credit risk, liquidity risk, maturity risk, risk-free rate, etc.). However, to keep things simple we will peg it to the inflation rate due to the fact that other risks are not significant with respect to CPF LIFE anyway.

We took the 10-year average inflation rate, from 2003 to 2013, as an input. This provides a NPV of S$10,002.

B) The Net Present Value of CPF LIFE is over S$372,000 (if perpetuity is included)

Perpetual monthly payout: S$1,200

Perpetual annual payout: S$14,400

Discount rate: 2.73%

Present value: S$527,473

Initial Investment: S$155,000

Net present value (NPV): S$372,473

The 10, 20 and 30-year average inflation rates are 2.73%, 1.89% and 1.84% respectively. We took the most conservative inflation rate of 2.73% as the discount rate.

CPF LIFE would yield a net present value of S$372,473!

C) CPF LIFE > comparable securities!

Table 1

Length of SGS Bond 10-Year 15-Year 20-Year 30-Year
Coupon Rate 3.000% 2.875% 3.375% 2.750%
Yield at
2-Jan-15 2.33% 2.66% 2.83% 2.93%
5-Jan-15 2.31% 2.65% 2.79% 2.89%
6-Jan-15 2.25% 2.56% 2.72% 2.81%
7-Jan-15 2.16% 2.46% 2.62% 2.70%
8-Jan-15 2.17% 2.48% 2.62% 2.70%
9-Jan-15 2.17% 2.44% 2.57% 2.65%
Average yield 2.23% 2.54% 2.69% 2.78%
(Source: Monetary Authority of Singapore)

Table 1 shows comparable securities with CPF LIFE. The average yield range from 2.23% to 2.78% per annum for the 10-30 year Singapore Government Securities while the effective interest rate for CPF LIFE is 3.32% per year.

Furthermore, CPF LIFE provides for liquidity because they will provide a monthly payout. This reduces the duration and convexity risk inherent in all fixed income securities.

Conclusion as an Investment

We cannot reject the CPF LIFE “project”. However, the consolation is that CPF LIFE provides a high NPV of S$372,473. When compared to similar securities, the pension outrightly overshadows them with a much higher effective interest rate. To top it all off, CPF LIFE provides for monthly payouts as well.

In a nutshell

The government is not going to be responsible for our daily expenses and personal finance planning. There are over 5.4 million people in Singapore and 3+ million Singapore residents, so do not expect them to “babysit” us when we get older.

CPF LIFE should not be your ONLY retirement plan. You should always have multiple sources of income streams and always reduce your expenses from wants to needs. Having said that, do remember to pamper yourself once in a while!

minority

21-09-16, 04:56

teddybear

21-09-16, 08:12

minority,

Don't come with all your bullshit and lies!
I had already shown you the calculation many days ago to prove to you that what I said is a FACT:

minority,
You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

OK, so minority, you are saying that government is "helping" Singaporeans by taking away their retirement money from their CPF Life (hence resulting in NEGATIVE return) if they can only live till 80 years old (about 50% of men) is it????
Is this the reason why they need to keep increasing CPF Min Sum saying it is not enough? :tsk-tsk:

And this is the 3rd time I am asking you: "What is betroth?"
I check dictionary (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/betroth) and it said: "betroth - to arrange for the marriage of". So how is it related to CPF Life you are saying??? :middle-finger:

So, all these comments you made FIT YOU very well indeed!!! :tongue-fingers:

Dont talk cock and where you dont show any facts. Dont come peddle your bullshit crap.

So dont come bullshit and lie lah... What a F***

Why not u show us its not true? Why not u go take it up with the finaincial site? Dont talk cock and where you dont show any facts. Dont come peddle your bullshit crap.

Why cant u answer why you cherry pick the date? why u never mention there is betroth ? why u never count or say there are continue payment till death ?

So dont come bullshit and lie lah... What a F***

minority

21-09-16, 11:00

minority,

Don't come with all your bullshit and lies!
I had already shown you the calculation many days ago to prove to you that what I said is a FACT:

And this is the 3rd time I am asking you: "What is betroth?"
I check dictionary (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/betroth) and it said: "betroth - to arrange for the marriage of". So how is it related to CPF Life you are saying??? :middle-finger:

So, all these comments you made FIT YOU very well indeed!!! :tongue-fingers:

This show the kind of worm you are.

1. Your calculation is rigged for your stupid bullshit agenda. why you pick that age? why never consider the bequest? why never consider people who live beyond 80?
2. bequest for you . you know exactly what it is but u choose to beat ard the bush with your bullshit lies.

Come answer the question straight up stop running ard in circles . BUT THEN ITS EXPECTED FROM A PATOLOGICAL LIAR AND CHEAT.

teddybear

21-09-16, 18:53

minority,

1. Don't come again your stupid bullshit agenda and parroting again the usual statement to mislead people.
Obviously for men, I only consider age of 80 because that is the average life-span for men in Singapore! You think we are like YOU, anyhow bullshit without even knowing what you are talking about?! :axekiller:

2. minority, you repeated 3 times talking about "betroth" but actually now then you realize you actually want to refer to "bequest"? :tongue-fingers:
Oh my god! You must have been a real financial idiot! And you have the cheek to assume people like me know what you are talking about when you mention "betroth"! :middle-finger:
And by the way, for "annuity" programme, "bequest" is supposed to be ZERO once you hit the average age (80 for men, 85 for women), so obviously "bequest = $0"! Understand? (I won't be surprise if you don't, since you are the financial idiot!)

Since you are a financial idiot, no wonder you can't provide evidence and calculations to back up your CLAIM, because your claim is just anyhow CLAIM and BULLSHIT! No wonder you can't even understand why I use age of 80 for calculating men's average CPF Life return! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. All the above are concrete evidence that you are the REAL PATOLOGICAL LIAR AND CHEAT, bullshitting without understanding what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4. So, I am correct to state that: ""FACT is, a man who can live till 80 years old will only get effective interest rate of -0.8% (yes NEGATIVE!) from 65 years old onwards!"

5. If you still want to argue that above is not TRUE, then please show us the calculation to proof that the effective return/interest for a man getting $1300 pm payout from 65 years old to 80 years old is not NEGATIVE! (But I am sure you won't be able to, because you are just lying and bullshitting about your claims!)

This show the kind of worm you are.

1. Your calculation is rigged for your stupid bullshit agenda. why you pick that age? why never consider the bequest? why never consider people who live beyond 80?
2. bequest for you . you know exactly what it is but u choose to beat ard the bush with your bullshit lies.

Come answer the question straight up stop running ard in circles . BUT THEN ITS EXPECTED FROM A PATOLOGICAL LIAR AND CHEAT.

minority,

Don't come with all your bullshit and lies!
I had already shown you the calculation many days ago to prove to you that what I said is a FACT:

And this is the 3rd time I am asking you: "What is betroth?"
I check dictionary (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/betroth) and it said: "betroth - to arrange for the marriage of". So how is it related to CPF Life you are saying??? :middle-finger:

So, all these comments you made FIT YOU very well indeed!!! :tongu

WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT BETROTH FOR DEATH BEFORE 80? WHY NEVER TALK ABOUT LIFE PAYOUT TILL DEATH WHICH CAN BE BEYOND 80.

SO DONT COME AND TELL ME ABOUT LIES LAH. YOU ARE THE BLOODY NO.! LIAR..

you think LIM PAY SO FREE TO KEEP READING YOUR BULL... I rather spend my time making $$ From APPLE THEN COME READ YOUR LIES.

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

minority

21-09-16, 22:32

teddybear

21-09-16, 23:42

minority,

More bullshit from you again that "average age of men" we are referring to becomes "every man will die at 80" to you??? :tongue-fingers:

Oh really? "base on the trend and improve in healthcare and awareness people are aging longer? u mean people today at 65 in time cannot live beyond 80 ?"
You mean CPF Life annuity projects average Singaporean men to live till say 100 years old?
Then how come for CPF Life of women the bequest is $0 at 85 years old (meaning they expect average age of women to be only 85 years old)?
You mean the Government expects men to live significantly longer than women in future??? Ha ha ha, this just shows more lies from you again.................. :asshole:

Please go read this webpage: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth
Average age of men is only 80.4 years old and for women is only 84.9 years old.
So you mean the Government website is giving misleading information? More like you are bullshitting instead! :middle-finger:

Oh you mean every man will die at 80??? WOW you donno the mortality rate of Singaporean male have been moving up? base on the trend and improve in healthcare and awareness people are aging longer? u mean people today at 65 in time cannot live beyond 80 ? PROOF TO ME THE TREND IS WRONG!! YOU BLOODY LIAR..!!

I guess for you u worry coz u cant even reach 65!!!!

minority,

1. Don't come again your stupid bullshit agenda and parroting again the usual statement to mislead people.
Obviously for men, I only consider age of 80 because that is the average life-span for men in Singapore! You think we are like YOU, anyhow bullshit without even knowing what you are talking about?! :axekiller:

2. minority, you repeated 3 times talking about "betroth" but actually now then you realize you actually want to refer to "bequest"? :tongue-fingers:
Oh my god! You must have been a real financial idiot! And you have the cheek to assume people like me know what you are talking about when you mention "betroth"! :middle-finger:
And by the way, for "annuity" programme, "bequest" is supposed to be ZERO once you hit the average age (80 for men, 85 for women), so obviously "bequest = $0"! Understand? (I won't be surprise if you don't, since you are the financial idiot!)

Since you are a financial idiot, no wonder you can't provide evidence and calculations to back up your CLAIM, because your claim is just anyhow CLAIM and BULLSHIT! No wonder you can't even understand why I use age of 80 for calculating men's average CPF Life return! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. All the above are concrete evidence that you are the REAL PATOLOGICAL LIAR AND CHEAT, bullshitting without understanding what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4. So, I am correct to state that: ""FACT is, a man who can live till 80 years old will only get effective interest rate of -0.8% (yes NEGATIVE!) from 65 years old onwards!"

5. If you still want to argue that above is not TRUE, then please show us the calculation to proof that the effective return/interest for a man getting $1300 pm payout from 65 years old to 80 years old is not NEGATIVE! (But I am sure you won't be able to, because you are just lying and bullshitting about your claims!)

minority

22-09-16, 14:38

teddybear

22-09-16, 20:01

minority,

More bullshit and empty talk from you again, you the one who is a real financial idiot talking like an expert here and mistaking "bequest" for "betroth"?
A financial idiot you now talking about mortality rate getting higher and hence CPF Life should pay us much less CPF Life payout every month?

So, minority, tell us:
A) What age does CPF expects men and women to live to in next 10 years?

Since you said "the statics chart. the trend strongly show the mortality rate are getting higher. 1957 is 59 and 2015 is 80.4",
you are telling us that CPF expects us to live till 100 years old in next 10-30 years?
So that means they are purposely unpaying our CPF Life annuity to take into consideration that all of us will till or pass 100 years old? (On top of the FACT that they can arbitrary reduce the CPF Life Payout anytime and also the Bequest amount they would pay if you die early?)

B) CPF said CPF Life gets 4% return, so what age we need to live till before we can get 4% return?

C) Since CPF Life money should be getting 4% interest and people are ACTUALLY/REALLY getting -0.8% return if they can only live till 80 years old, how much accumulated unpaid CPF Life reserves are there?

D) Who pocketed the accumulated unpaid CPF Life surplus/reserves every year? Can we safely assume that CPF pocketed all these accumulated surplus as their profits (since that there is NO separate financial account to record CPF Life capital, interests, surpluses etc)?

Could you even answer the above questions? (I doubt so, because I had asked like 5th time now and you are bent on avoiding and not answering the TRUTH-REVEALING questions).........

And minority,
Back to your claim below:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

I am asking you these same questions again (think for the 6th time?!), could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?
6) Is CPF Life's financial account a state secret??????????????? Why so secretive about it?
7) Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made?

There goes your bullshit again. u are telling me every man will die at 80?

and since u quote the statics chart. the trend strongly show the mortality rate are getting higher. 1957 is 59 and 2015 is 80.4. So can u tell me for sure EVERY MAN DIE AT 80? CAN U GUARANTEE THAT in 2031 the age would not have moved up with improved health care break through and more educated healthier life stye?

SO YOUR BULL SHIT HAVE BEEN SELF BROKEN!!! THE TREND DO SHOW PEOPLE LIVING LONGER!!!! SO DONT COME BULLSHIT YOUR CRAP EVERY MAN DIE AT 80! HOW COME YOU NEVER ANSWER MY QUESTION THOSE WHO LIVE BEYONE 80 and LONG HOW?????

WHY YOU CHERRY PICK 80? NOT 75 not 85 ? WHY U NEVER TALK AABOUT BEQUEST? WHY CHERRY PICK DATE TO BULLSHIT US!!!

I GUESS PEOPLE LIKE YOU CANNOT PASS 55 ONE THTS WHY ARE IN A HURRY TO SPEND ALL UR $$$

minority

22-09-16, 20:22

minority,

More bullshit and empty talk from you again, you the one who is a real financial idiot talking like an expert here and mistaking "bequest" for "betroth"?
A financial idiot you now talking about mortality rate getting higher and hence CPF Life should pay us much less CPF Life payout every month?

So, minority, tell us:
A) What age does CPF expects men and women to live to in next 10 years?

Since you said "the statics chart. the trend strongly show the mortality rate are getting higher. 1957 is 59 and 2015 is 80.4",
you are telling us that CPF expects us to live till 100 years old in next 10-30 years?
So that means they are purposely unpaying our CPF Life annuity to take into consideration that all of us will till or pass 100 years old? (On top of the FACT that they can arbitrary reduce the CPF Life Payout anytime and also the Bequest amount they would pay if you die early?)

B) CPF said CPF Life gets 4% return, so what age we need to live till before we can get 4% return?

C) Since CPF Life money should be getting 4% interest and people are ACTUALLY/REALLY getting -0.8% return if they can only live till 80 years old, how much accumulated unpaid CPF Life reserves are there?

D) Who pocketed the accumulated unpaid CPF Life surplus/reserves every year? Can we safely assume that CPF pocketed all these accumulated surplus as their profits (since that there is NO separate financial account to record CPF Life capital, interests, surpluses etc)?

Could you even answer the above questions? (I doubt so, because I had asked like 5th time now and you are bent on avoiding and not answering the TRUTH-REVEALING questions).........

And minority,
Back to your claim below:

I am asking you these same questions again (think for the 6th time?!), could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?
6) Is CPF Life's financial account a state secret??????????????? Why so secretive about it?
7) Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made?

why are u beating ard the bush??? PROOF TO US EVERY MALE DIE AT 80!!!! I know u wont get pass 55 coz u are the exceptional ! But PLS PROOF TO US NO MALE LIVE PASS 80 LEH!!!! COME I CHALLENGE U! BLOODY LIARRRR

teddybear

22-09-16, 22:53

minority,

So you are the financial idiot asking people to proof every male die at 80 just because the average return for annuity calculation uses average age of 80? :middle-finger:

Like that you better keep quiet because the actuary will ask you to get eat shit for asking stupid question like above! (not to mention asking you whether you know or not, what CPF Life's "BETROTH"?!) :tongue-fingers:

And you still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company:

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

Can't answer? Must be your CLAIM is anyhow claim and bullshit and lie right?! :asshole:

why are u beating ard the bush??? PROOF TO US EVERY MALE DIE AT 80!!!! I know u wont get pass 55 coz u are the exceptional ! But PLS PROOF TO US NO MALE LIVE PASS 80 LEH!!!! COME I CHALLENGE U! BLOODY LIARRRR

cbsh38584

25-09-16, 06:58

CPF statement - Net amount used for property
===================================
Assuming the amount you have used for housing from your CPF-OA
Net Property amount used + Accured interest = $380,000

At age 47 - Assuming Your CPF OA , SA & MA as follows
============================================
Balance in your CPF OA (2.5%) = 80k
Balance in your CPF SA (4%) = 179k (Full retirement sum ceiling 161k)
Balance in your CPF MA (4%) = 50.6k ( max ceiling for MA 49.8k)

Currently, you have allocated est 500k which is currently in your bank acct for
potential ppty investment. Just like you are still waiting & waiting for a "RIGHT"
price. The waiting can be 1 yr to 5 yrs. I got friend still waiting since 2007 till now.

Now the question you need to ask yourself.
Do U think it make sense to use CASH to return back to CPF which you have used for current ppty ?

If you have already allocated CASH $500k for potential ppty investment & it is still sitting in the bank
earning 1.3%. Why not use part of the CASH 500k to return a partial back to CPF, the ppty nett
amount you used + accured interest (380k) . Maybe return back partial CASH 200k to CPF-OA. This 200k
will go back to your CPF-OA earning 2.5% instead of putting in the bank earning 1.3%.

When you really find your right ppty to invest whcih you dont know when. You still can use your CPF-OA
to pay for your ppty investment.

If u buy your ppty for investment. 1st 5% must be CASH. The next 15% can be from CPF-OA.
So does it make sense to use CASH to partial return back to CPF-OA ? I think it does make sense.

minority

25-09-16, 12:43

minority,

So you are the financial idiot asking people to proof every male die at 80 just because the average return for annuity calculation uses average age of 80? :middle-finger:

Like that you better keep quiet because the actuary will ask you to get eat shit for asking stupid question like above! (not to mention asking you whether you know or not, what CPF Life's "BETROTH"?!) :tongue-fingers:

And you still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company:

Can't answer? Must be your CLAIM is anyhow claim and bullshit and lie right?! :asshole:

Common dont hide and run away leh.. can u substaineate your claim ever MALE DIE IN SIGNAPOREA AT 80? u MEAN ALL WILL DIE AT 80? WHY NEVER NO BALLS TO TALK ABOUT BEQUEST? or THOSE WHO LIVE MUCH LONGER?? WHY? U LIKE TO PICK 80 AS YOUR BULL SHIT TO JUSTIFY YOUR LIE???

NO BALLS?? JUST GOT CUT OFF??

COMMON LEH??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF 1ST!! LEH!!! BO JI AH????? BLOODY CHO AH KUA!!!!!

teddybear

25-09-16, 20:53

minority,

Oh ho ho, you the BIGGEST LIAR here who is a complete financial idiot about annuity and CPF Life is coming back with more lies and bullshit again? :tongue-new:

So you are talking about "Bequest"? Wow! So you just learnt a new word! You have been shouting about CPF Life's "BETROTH" for so many previous posts! This just simply show you are a financial idiot and is so naive and stupid to talk about something you don't know: "BETROTH"! ha ha ha! Laugh until people can roll on the floor! :highly_amused:

And by the way, you are the only one claiming that "MALE DIE IN SIGNAPOREA AT 80"!

What I have shown previously is how to compute average CPF Life return based on average age of men at 80 years old, and only a financial idiot will not know the difference! :eagerness:

Anyway, conclusion is: CPF Life return for a man is NEGATIVE (-0.8%) when he starts getting payout from 65 years old if he can only live till average age of 80 years old!
That means, about 50% of Singaporean men with CPF Life will get NEGATIVE return from CPF Life (because they can only live till 80 years old)!

minority,
Come-on dont hide and run away leh!!!!!!!!!
You are still trying to avoid our questions:

You still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company!

Also, How old does a person need to live in order to get 4% return from CPF Life payout (from 65 years old onwards)?

minority,
How many lies you have been spinning and still want to continue to spin hah? From CPF Life's "BETROTH" to 4% return to MALE DIE IN SINGAPORE AT 80 etc??? What's more?????

No wonder your statement fits you the best: :hornybastard:

NO BALLS?? JUST GOT CUT OFF??
COMMON LEH??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF 1ST!! LEH!!! BO JI AH????? BLOODY CHO AH KUA!!!!!

Common dont hide and run away leh.. can u substaineate your claim ever MALE DIE IN SIGNAPOREA AT 80? u MEAN ALL WILL DIE AT 80? WHY NEVER NO BALLS TO TALK ABOUT BEQUEST? or THOSE WHO LIVE MUCH LONGER?? WHY? U LIKE TO PICK 80 AS YOUR BULL SHIT TO JUSTIFY YOUR LIE???

NO BALLS?? JUST GOT CUT OFF??

COMMON LEH??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF 1ST!! LEH!!! BO JI AH????? BLOODY CHO AH KUA!!!!!

minority,

So you are the financial idiot asking people to proof every male die at 80 just because the average return for annuity calculation uses average age of 80? :middle-finger:

Like that you better keep quiet because the actuary will ask you to get eat shit for asking stupid question like above! (not to mention asking you whether you know or not, what CPF Life's "BETROTH"?!) :tongue-fingers:

And you still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company:

Can't answer? Must be your CLAIM is anyhow claim and bullshit and lie right?! :asshole:

minority

26-09-16, 10:12

minority,

Oh ho ho, you the BIGGEST LIAR here who is a complete financial idiot about annuity and CPF Life is coming back with more lies and bullshit again? :tongue-new:

So you are talking about "Bequest"? Wow! So you just learnt a new word! You have been shouting about CPF Life's "BETROTH" for so many previous posts! This just simply show you are a financial idiot and is so naive and stupid to talk about something you don't know: "BETROTH"! ha ha ha! Laugh until people can roll on the floor! :highly_amused:

And by the way, you are the only one claiming that "MALE DIE IN SIGNAPOREA AT 80"!

What I have shown previously is how to compute average CPF Life return based on average age of men at 80 years old, and only a financial idiot will not know the difference! :eagerness:

Anyway, conclusion is: CPF Life return for a man is NEGATIVE (-0.8%) when he starts getting payout from 65 years old if he can only live till average age of 80 years old!
That means, about 50% of Singaporean men with CPF Life will get NEGATIVE return from CPF Life (because they can only live till 80 years old)!

minority,
Come-on dont hide and run away leh!!!!!!!!!
You are still trying to avoid our questions:

You still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company!

Also, How old does a person need to live in order to get 4% return from CPF Life payout (from 65 years old onwards)?

minority,
How many lies you have been spinning and still want to continue to spin hah? From CPF Life's "BETROTH" to 4% return to MALE DIE IN SINGAPORE AT 80 etc??? What's more?????

No wonder your statement fits you the best: :hornybastard:

NO BALLS?? JUST GOT CUT OFF??
COMMON LEH??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF 1ST!! LEH!!! BO JI AH????? BLOODY CHO AH KUA!!!!!

COMMON BALLESS.. NOW CLAIM 50 % EVERY MAN DIE AT 80 RIGHT? SO I ASKING YOU TO PROOF IT!!!! SHOW US PROOF. DONT RUN ARD BEAT AROUND THE BUSH LEH!!!!

CAN U TELL ME BASE ON YOUR STATICS YOU SHOW U DONT SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER??? OR YOU CONVENIENTLY JUST SKIP THAT PART!!!

CAN YOU SHOW ME PROOF THAT IN 20YRS those who hit 80 WILL ALL DIE??? SO DONT COME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

BLOODY CHOW AH KUA!

teddybear

26-09-16, 20:15

minority,

Don't come lying again lah!
I already claimed 50% of every man will die at age 80 in much earlier post (and not just NOW as alleged by you), See my previous post #147 which I copied below: (http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page30?p=521061#post521061)

minority,
Government helping Singaporeans is it?

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx (http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page30?p=521061#post521061)

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

OK, so minority, you are saying that government is "helping" Singaporeans by taking away their retirement money from their CPF Life (hence resulting in NEGATIVE return) if they can only live till 80 years old (about 50% of men) is it????
Is this the reason why they need to keep increasing CPF Min Sum saying it is not enough? :tsk-tsk:

minority,
Again caught you lying despite all the facts out there!

You want proof? Easy lah! The average age of men is 80 is based on the government statistics here:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth (http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth)

So you are telling us that you disagree with that the average age for men is "80" years old and so are you telling us that that government website is lying?

Come on, almost everybody here knows you are the BIGGEST LIAR here after catching you lying (against the facts presented and out there) so MANY TIMES! :im-a-gonna-get-u:

COMMON BALLESS.. NOW CLAIM 50 % EVERY MAN DIE AT 80 RIGHT? SO I ASKING YOU TO PROOF IT!!!! SHOW US PROOF. DONT RUN ARD BEAT AROUND THE BUSH LEH!!!!

CAN U TELL ME BASE ON YOUR STATICS YOU SHOW U DONT SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER??? OR YOU CONVENIENTLY JUST SKIP THAT PART!!!

CAN YOU SHOW ME PROOF THAT IN 20YRS those who hit 80 WILL ALL DIE??? SO DONT COME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

BLOODY CHOW AH KUA!

teddybear

26-09-16, 20:30

minority,
I had already answered your questions!

minority,
Come-on dont hide and run away leh!!!!!!!!!
You are still trying to avoid our questions:

You still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company!

Also, How old does a person need to live in order to get 4% return from CPF Life payout (from 65 years old onwards)?

COMMON BALLESS.. NOW CLAIM 50 % EVERY MAN DIE AT 80 RIGHT? SO I ASKING YOU TO PROOF IT!!!! SHOW US PROOF. DONT RUN ARD BEAT AROUND THE BUSH LEH!!!!

CAN U TELL ME BASE ON YOUR STATICS YOU SHOW U DONT SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER??? OR YOU CONVENIENTLY JUST SKIP THAT PART!!!

CAN YOU SHOW ME PROOF THAT IN 20YRS those who hit 80 WILL ALL DIE??? SO DONT COME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

BLOODY CHOW AH KUA!

minority,

Oh ho ho, you the BIGGEST LIAR here who is a complete financial idiot about annuity and CPF Life is coming back with more lies and bullshit again? :tongue-new:

So you are talking about "Bequest"? Wow! So you just learnt a new word! You have been shouting about CPF Life's "BETROTH" for so many previous posts! This just simply show you are a financial idiot and is so naive and stupid to talk about something you don't know: "BETROTH"! ha ha ha! Laugh until people can roll on the floor! :highly_amused:

And by the way, you are the only one claiming that "MALE DIE IN SIGNAPOREA AT 80"!

What I have shown previously is how to compute average CPF Life return based on average age of men at 80 years old, and only a financial idiot will not know the difference! :eagerness:

Anyway, conclusion is: CPF Life return for a man is NEGATIVE (-0.8%) when he starts getting payout from 65 years old if he can only live till average age of 80 years old!
That means, about 50% of Singaporean men with CPF Life will get NEGATIVE return from CPF Life (because they can only live till 80 years old)!

minority,
Come-on dont hide and run away leh!!!!!!!!!
You are still trying to avoid our questions:

You still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company!

Also, How old does a person need to live in order to get 4% return from CPF Life payout (from 65 years old onwards)?

minority,
How many lies you have been spinning and still want to continue to spin hah? From CPF Life's "BETROTH" to 4% return to MALE DIE IN SINGAPORE AT 80 etc??? What's more?????

No wonder your statement fits you the best: :hornybastard:

NO BALLS?? JUST GOT CUT OFF??
COMMON LEH??? EXPLAIN YOURSELF 1ST!! LEH!!! BO JI AH????? BLOODY CHO AH KUA!!!!!

teddybear

01-10-16, 18:55

minority,
so you can't even answer my simple questions regarding what you claimed about CPF Life?

Wow! There must have been so much lies and falsehoods that your claim cannot stand up to scrutiny and asking for more details!
More details from you means more lies can be busted (again)! :middle-finger2:

minority,
I had already answered your questions!

minority,
Come-on dont hide and run away leh!!!!!!!!!
You are still trying to avoid our questions:

You still haven't answer my questions about your claim that CPF Life's money has been used to buy annuity from insurance company!

Also, How old does a person need to live in order to get 4% return from CPF Life payout (from 65 years old onwards)?

COMMON BALLESS.. NOW CLAIM 50 % EVERY MAN DIE AT 80 RIGHT? SO I ASKING YOU TO PROOF IT!!!! SHOW US PROOF. DONT RUN ARD BEAT AROUND THE BUSH LEH!!!!

CAN U TELL ME BASE ON YOUR STATICS YOU SHOW U DONT SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW LIVING LONGER??? OR YOU CONVENIENTLY JUST SKIP THAT PART!!!

CAN YOU SHOW ME PROOF THAT IN 20YRS those who hit 80 WILL ALL DIE??? SO DONT COME BULLSHIT HERE LAH

BLOODY CHOW AH KUA!

minority

02-10-16, 08:20

teddybear

02-10-16, 15:18

minority,

This Thread becoming too long with too much bullshits and lies from you trying to mislead and pollute with lots of nonsense here, so Ok, never mind, I will summarize below once and for all:

Thread: Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? Post #147:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page30

minority,
Government helping Singaporeans is it?

You could use the calculator on this webpage to help you calculate your CPF Life annuity return (no talk only and no bullshit here):
http://www.investopedia.com/calculator/arannuity.aspx

Present Value ($) = 251000 (CPF Retirement Account at 65 years old assuming you have $161,000 at 55 years old)
Payment ($) = 1300 (monthly payout for men)
Time Period = 180 (in months or 15 years till 80 years old)
CPF Payout return (assuming a man can live till 80 years old) = -0.94% (NEGATIVE INTEREST RATE, NOT HIGH INTEREST RATE!)

OK, so minority, you are saying that government is "helping" Singaporeans by taking away their retirement money from their CPF Life (hence resulting in NEGATIVE return) if they can only live till 80 years old (about 50% of men) is it????
Is this the reason why they need to keep increasing CPF Min Sum saying it is not enough? :tsk-tsk:

Thread: Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? Post #154:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page31

Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!!

Thread: Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? Post #159:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page31

minority,

Oh no no, more lies from you again?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buy annuity from insurance company???

Can you tell us:
1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

What is "bethrow amount"? I have never heard of that before! Ha ha ha! "bethrow"? Or is it CPF Life members get "beheaded" (or chop carrot-head)? :highly_amused:

CPF Life is so big that instead of buying annuity from another insurance company, CPF Life members can basically insure each other so that those who live shorter life compensate those who live longer, that is already an "annuity", and a cheaper option than buying annuity from another company, so why still need to pay premiums to buy "annuity" from an unknown insurance company?
Don't come bullshit lah! :tongue-fingers:

No answers to all the above questions? See, more lies exposed! Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!! :hornybastard:

Thread: Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? Post #181:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page39

minority,

More bullshit from you again that "average age of men" we are referring to becomes "every man will die at 80" to you??? :tongue-fingers:

Oh really? "base on the trend and improve in healthcare and awareness people are aging longer? u mean people today at 65 in time cannot live beyond 80 ?"
You mean CPF Life annuity projects average Singaporean men to live till say 100 years old?
Then how come for CPF Life of women the bequest is $0 at 85 years old (meaning they expect average age of women to be only 85 years old)?
You mean the Government expects men to live significantly longer than women in future??? Ha ha ha, this just shows more lies from you again.................. :asshole:

Please go read this webpage: http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth
Average age of men is only 80.4 years old and for women is only 84.9 years old.
So you mean the Government website is giving misleading information? More like you are bullshitting instead! :middle-finger:

Thread: Any Ceiling for contribution of CPF OA? Post #183:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/24373-Any-Ceiling-for-contribution-of-CPF-OA/page37

minority,

More bullshit and empty talk from you again, you the one who is a real financial idiot talking like an expert here and mistaking "bequest" for "betroth"?
A financial idiot you now talking about mortality rate getting higher and hence CPF Life should pay us much less CPF Life payout every month?

So, minority, tell us:
A) What age does CPF expects men and women to live to in next 10 years?

Since you said "the statics chart. the trend strongly show the mortality rate are getting higher. 1957 is 59 and 2015 is 80.4",
you are telling us that CPF expects us to live till 100 years old in next 10-30 years?
So that means they are purposely unpaying our CPF Life annuity to take into consideration that all of us will till or pass 100 years old? (On top of the FACT that they can arbitrary reduce the CPF Life Payout anytime and also the Bequest amount they would pay if you die early?)

B) CPF said CPF Life gets 4% return, so what age we need to live till before we can get 4% return?

C) Since CPF Life money should be getting 4% interest and people are ACTUALLY/REALLY getting -0.8% return if they can only live till 80 years old, how much accumulated unpaid CPF Life reserves are there?

D) Who pocketed the accumulated unpaid CPF Life surplus/reserves every year? Can we safely assume that CPF pocketed all these accumulated surplus as their profits (since that there is NO separate financial account to record CPF Life capital, interests, surpluses etc)?

Could you even answer the above questions? (I doubt so, because I had asked like 5th time now and you are bent on avoiding and not answering the TRUTH-REVEALING questions).........

And minority,
Back to your claim below:

" Originally Posted by minority
Talk cock again. that money is use do buy a annuity to a insurance company. so the person live to 95 the additional 10 yrs come from where? the person die at 75 there is a bethrow amount why u never mention? Caught u again cherry picking facts to bullshit and lie!!!! "

I am asking you these same questions again (think for the 6th time?!), could you tell us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?
2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?
3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?
4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?
5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?
6) Is CPF Life's financial account a state secret??????????????? Why so secretive about it?
7) Does CPF Life even have audit on its account etc to ensure that it is correct and no mistake made?

teddybear

02-10-16, 15:25

minority,

Trying to lie again? Trying to act like you are a financial expert and knows so much about annuity and about CPF Life and even claiming CPF Life's has "Betroth"?
Ha ha ha! "Betroth"?
Betroth you backside is it??? What is CPF Life's "Betroth"??? Ha ha ha!

More facts to bust your lies! Go read:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/population_and_population_structure/population2016.pdf

It states that:
"Singapore residents could expect to live longer. The life expectancy at birth rose
from 80.1 years in 2005 to 82.6 years in 2014 and 82.7 years in 2015 (Chart 5.4).
...........
Females had higher life expectancy than males. A new-born girl in 2015 could
expect to live an average of 84.9 years, which is 4.5 years longer than the average of 80.4 years a new-born boy could expect to live."

minority,
Your lie busted again!
You said trend of life span of Singaporeans is living longer and longer, but the average age of 80 for men and 85 for women shown at this URL:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth
is already the projected age assuming the person was born in year 2015!

Holy cow! That means those who are 55 years old and above now (meaning they are born in 1961 or earlier) most probably have average age of much less than 80 for men and 85 for women! In this case, there must have been lots and lots of profits from CPF Life for paying a payout rate for these group of people assuming they will live till 90+ years old (but in reality most die at 70+ years old only)!

Come to think of it, since CPF claimed that CPF Retirement Account pays 4% interest, so if a person starts with $251,000 at 65 years old and decide not to participate in CPF Life, how long can his money last?
You can check yourself here (all facts and no lies, and no bullshit empty talk here):
https://www.dinkytown.net/java/RetirementDistribution.html

You just need to key in the following:
Cumulative savings at retirement: $251,000
Amount you want to spend annually in retirement: $15,600 (which is $1300 pm)
After tax rate of return in retirement: 4% (Interest that CPF claimed to pay)
Expected inflation rate: 0% (not used here)

And click on "Calculate" and you will get:
"You will be able to fund 25 years and 4 months in retirement."

Hei, without even participating in CPF Life annuity, your CPF Retirement account money of $251,000 can long you 25 years and 4 months or until you are 90 years old and 4 months! (and obviously if you die much earlier than that, the CPF Retirement Account money is still intact and can be passed to your children!)

Think think think! How many men (that is 55 years old now) can live till 90 years old and 4 months????

Now, according to the Government statistics,
It states that:
"Singapore residents could expect to live longer. The life expectancy at birth rose
from 80.1 years in 2005 to 82.6 years in 2014 and 82.7 years in 2015 (Chart 5.4).
...........
Females had higher life expectancy than males. A new-born girl in 2015 could
expect to live an average of 84.9 years, which is 4.5 years longer than the average of 80.4 years a new-born boy could expect to live."

So IF you are BORN in 2015, your EXPECTED AVERAGE AGE is 80.4 years!
So IF you are BORN in 1960 (now 55 years old), your EXPECTED AVERAGE AGE is XXX years!
What is "XXX"? Looking at the life expectancy detail data here http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth for the year 1960:
Total Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 62.9
Male Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 61.2
Female Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 65
Total Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 8.3
Male Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 7.8
Female Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 8.8

So, the facts (provided by Government statistics) showed that man born in 1960 or earlier has average life expectancy of 72.8 years old (if they can live till 65 years old)!
What is the implications, you will ask?

It means for men who were borned in 1960 or earlier:
(a) For about 50% of these men, they will only be able to live till the age of 72.8 years old (if they are still alive by 65 years old!).
(b) What is your chance of living to 90 years old if you were borned in 1960 or earlier? Well well, we have no statistics here, but likely to be 0.01% or even less???

So, why if you are about 55 years old now and you expect to receive -NEGATIVE interest if you live to 80 years old, which is already much much longer than the average age of your cohort (which is 72.8 years old)?

This will mean that probably >80% of this 1960s or earlier cohort will die by 80 years old and get -NEGATIVE interest from their CPF Life?!
And how many will live till 90.4 years old? May be 0.001%? Do you think you will be in the 0.001% group to live till 90.4 years old (by the time which your CPF Retirement account money runs out if you don't participate in CPF Life annuity)?

Why so many people, >80% of people need to lose money with their CPF Life money (-NEGATIVE interest, i.e. pay interest instead of collecting interest from CPF) to pay for the 0.001% who live longer? The figures doesn't seem right right?
May be we can only conclude that this looks like there is a HUGE profits/accumulated unpaid reserves that will be accumulated from this cohort for CPF?????

teddybear

02-10-16, 15:26

minority,

Trying to lie again? Trying to act like you are a financial expert and knows so much about annuity and about CPF Life and even claiming CPF Life's has "Betroth"?
Ha ha ha! "Betroth"?
Betroth you backside is it??? What is CPF Life's "Betroth"??? Ha ha ha!

More facts to bust your lies! Go read:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/docs/default-source/default-document-library/publications/publications_and_papers/population_and_population_structure/population2016.pdf

It states that:
"Singapore residents could expect to live longer. The life expectancy at birth rose
from 80.1 years in 2005 to 82.6 years in 2014 and 82.7 years in 2015 (Chart 5.4).
...........
Females had higher life expectancy than males. A new-born girl in 2015 could
expect to live an average of 84.9 years, which is 4.5 years longer than the average of 80.4 years a new-born boy could expect to live."

minority,
Your lie busted again!
You said trend of life span of Singaporeans is living longer and longer, but the average age of 80 for men and 85 for women shown at this URL:
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth
is already the projected age assuming the person was born in year 2015!

Holy cow! That means those who are 55 years old and above now (meaning they are born in 1961 or earlier) most probably have average age of much less than 80 for men and 85 for women! In this case, there must have been lots and lots of profits from CPF Life for paying a payout rate for these group of people assuming they will live till 90+ years old (but in reality most die at 70+ years old only)!

Come to think of it, since CPF claimed that CPF Retirement Account pays 4% interest, so if a person starts with $251,000 at 65 years old and decide not to participate in CPF Life, how long can his money last?
You can check yourself here (all facts and no lies, and no bullshit empty talk here):
https://www.dinkytown.net/java/RetirementDistribution.html

You just need to key in the following:
Cumulative savings at retirement: $251,000
Amount you want to spend annually in retirement: $15,600 (which is $1300 pm)
After tax rate of return in retirement: 4% (Interest that CPF claimed to pay)
Expected inflation rate: 0% (not used here)

And click on "Calculate" and you will get:
"You will be able to fund 25 years and 4 months in retirement."

Hei, without even participating in CPF Life annuity, your CPF Retirement account money of $251,000 can long you 25 years and 4 months or until you are 90 years old and 4 months! (and obviously if you die much earlier than that, the CPF Retirement Account money is still intact and can be passed to your children! - Mind you, this will not be the seriously discounted figure under the so-called "Bequest" that you children will get (because extra $$$ will be deducted to sponsor those who live much longer (or as accumulated unpaid reserve if not paid out yet))

Think think think! How many men (that is 55 years old now) can live till 90 years old and 4 months????

Now, according to the Government statistics,
It states that:
"Singapore residents could expect to live longer. The life expectancy at birth rose
from 80.1 years in 2005 to 82.6 years in 2014 and 82.7 years in 2015 (Chart 5.4).
...........
Females had higher life expectancy than males. A new-born girl in 2015 could
expect to live an average of 84.9 years, which is 4.5 years longer than the average of 80.4 years a new-born boy could expect to live."

So IF you are BORN in 2015, your EXPECTED AVERAGE AGE is 80.4 years!
So IF you are BORN in 1960 (now 55 years old), your EXPECTED AVERAGE AGE is XXX years!
What is "XXX"? Looking at the life expectancy detail data here http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/visualising-data/charts/life-expectancy-at-birth for the year 1960:
Total Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 62.9
Male Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 61.2
Female Life Expectancy At Birth (Residents) 65
Total Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 8.3
Male Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 7.8
Female Life Expectancy At Age 65 Years (Residents) 8.8

So, the facts (provided by Government statistics) showed that man born in 1960 or earlier has average life expectancy of 72.8 years old (if they can live till 65 years old)!
What is the implications, you will ask?

It means for men who were borned in 1960 or earlier:
(a) For about 50% of these men, they will only be able to live till the age of 72.8 years old (if they are still alive by 65 years old!).
(b) What is your chance of living to 90 years old if you were borned in 1960 or earlier? Well well, we have no statistics here, but likely to be 0.01% or even less???

So, why if you are about 55 years old now and you expect to receive -NEGATIVE interest if you live to 80 years old, which is already much much longer than the average age of your cohort (which is 72.8 years old)?

This will mean that probably >80% of this 1960s or earlier cohort will die by 80 years old and get -NEGATIVE interest from their CPF Life?!
And how many will live till 90.4 years old? May be 0.001%? Do you think you will be in the 0.001% group to live till 90.4 years old (by the time which your CPF Retirement account money runs out if you don't participate in CPF Life annuity)?

Why so many people, >80% of people need to lose money with their CPF Life money (-NEGATIVE interest, i.e. pay interest instead of collecting interest from CPF) to pay for the 0.001% who live longer? The figures doesn't seem right right?
May be we can only conclude that this looks like there is a HUGE profits/accumulated unpaid reserves that will be accumulated from this cohort for CPF?????

PLS LAH YOU ANSWERED??? COMMON TELL ME HOW YOU SAY CPF LIFE RETURN IS -ve??? U take 80yrs as ur year to justify your bullshit.!!! I AM CALLING U BULL!! WHY 80? ALL MEN DIE at 80??? U ARE THE ONE WHO PICK AND INISIT 80 is the AGE SO U WORK OUT SOME BULL ABOUT -ve.

SO UNLESS ALLL MEN DIE AT 80!! WHICH U NOW FLIP FLOP AS USUAL!!! HOW IS IT NEGATIVE AH???

NO BEQUEST?? PEOPLE STILL GET DRAW DOWN AS THEY LIVE BEYONE 80.!!1

SO DONT COME CHEERY PICK DATES TO JUSTIFY YOUR LIES!!! AND NOW COME FLIP FLOP SAY YOU ANSWERED??? LOL

DONT COME BULLSHIT US LAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

star

02-10-16, 16:34

Hi Teddy bear, the problem is when people have a large sum of money on hands they don't spend exactly $1300per month. Some will likely to over spend. Some will go tour, buy their dream car, go night club, go casino, or their children eyeing their money want to borrow from them etc. Not everyone as savy as u or calculate their spending everyday.

teddybear

02-10-16, 17:06

I think you are going off-track, as what I posted has nothing to do with what you replied.

For those naive and still don't understand what I posted, let me clarify that what I am trying to show is that:

(1) CPF Life is paying too low payout to their members, hence >80% will get NEGATIVE return by the time they die (for those who were born in 1960 or earlier).

(2) There will be HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS (/Profits) for CPF as a result of low payout for CPF Life.

(3) Given the HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS, it is important for CPF Life to have separate audited financial account for transparency, so that people can see for themselves why there is a need (or rather, there is REALLY NO NEED) to keep increasing CPF Retirement Min Sum!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi Teddy bear, the problem is when people have a large sum of money on hands they don't spend exactly $1300per month. Some will likely to over spend. Some will go tour, buy their dream car, go night club, go casino, or their children eyeing their money want to borrow from them etc. Not everyone as savy as u or calculate their spending everyday.

Arcachon

02-10-16, 17:58

I think you are going off-track, as what I posted has nothing to do with what you replied.

For those naive and still don't understand what I posted, let me clarify that what I am trying to show is that:

(1) CPF Life is paying too low payout to their members, hence >80% will get NEGATIVE return by the time they die (for those who were born in 1960 or earlier).

(2) There will be HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS (/Profits) for CPF as a result of low payout for CPF Life.

(3) Given the HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS, it is important for CPF Life to have separate audited financial account for transparency, so that people can see for themselves why there is a need (or rather, there is REALLY NO NEED) to keep increasing CPF Retirement Min Sum!!!!!!!!!!!

LKY way of doing things is to ensure it can sustain otherwise don't do.

CPF Life is for those who do not know how to manage their money.

Talk to a few of my secondary school classmate, most don't know and don't care about CPF life.

This is the group that needs help.

Those talking are those who don't need help and have been helping themselves.

teddybear

02-10-16, 18:34

What you replied to my post has nothing to do with what I am trying to convey.
Sad to say, you all really have problem with understanding????

My post is NOT to talk about/discuss whether CPF Life is needed or not, or whether it benefits the people or help the people or not.

My post is only about why the CPF Life payout is so low, and there seem to be HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS and how much is that now (and in future)?
So we need transparency in terms of say CPF publishing the CPF Life financial report every year etc!

As of now, CPF Life's payout seems too low, and this means there is HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS, and there needs to be transparency about it, and thus given the case of HUGE SURPLUS, there is really no need to increase CPF Retirement Min Sum anymore! Then, more people will benefit (without having to set aside more CPF Retirement Sum, and still can get higher payout for the same amount they put into CPF Life etc)!

Why is there a need to accumulate so much unpaid SURPLUS in CPF Life for what and thus CPF Life needs to purposely pay much lower payout?
Does this benefit the people (like those of your friends you mentioned)?

So, contrary to your statement:
"Those talking are those who don't need help and have been helping themselves."

I am talking to bring awareness about:
(1) CPF Life payout is really low
(2) There is/will be HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS
(3) If (2) happens, there is no justification to increase CPF Retirement Min Sum!

So, as you can see, I am talking to help those people, like your friends, whom you talk about needing CPF Life!

And by the way, what are you doing/have done to help your friends?
Anyway, they are your friends, not my friends - I have no obligation to your friends, only you do.
Otherwise it is really sad/unlucky to be your friends indeed............... :ashamed1:

LKY way of doing things is to ensure it can sustain otherwise don't do.

CPF Life is for those who do not know how to manage their money.

Talk to a few of my secondary school classmate, most don't know and don't care about CPF life.

This is the group that needs help.

Those talking are those who don't need help and have been helping themselves.

I think you are going off-track, as what I posted has nothing to do with what you replied.

For those naive and still don't understand what I posted, let me clarify that what I am trying to show is that:

(1) CPF Life is paying too low payout to their members, hence >80% will get NEGATIVE return by the time they die (for those who were born in 1960 or earlier).

(2) There will be HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS (/Profits) for CPF as a result of low payout for CPF Life.

(3) Given the HUGE accumulated unpaid SURPLUS, it is important for CPF Life to have separate audited financial account for transparency, so that people can see for themselves why there is a need (or rather, there is REALLY NO NEED) to keep increasing CPF Retirement Min Sum!!!!!!!!!!!

Arcachon

02-10-16, 19:45

I wish I could help them, the problem is they are too preoccupy in working than living.

CPF life is basically taking the Basic Retirement Sum or Full Retirement Sum and hold it in CPF from 55 to 65 then draw down until 95 part of the BRS and FRS is used to buy insurance in case they to live beyond 95. If not enough CPF than use those paying to offset the payment.

They don't hide the fact the return is low since most will not understand and can do nothing.

Please watch the video so ass to understand why CPF life return is so low........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJ2sJVEwQU

Arcachon

02-10-16, 19:55

If got no time at least watch this.

https://youtu.be/22yC3C2jYhc?t=797

Arcachon

02-10-16, 20:14

https://youtu.be/LamFOzW0jLY?t=218

teddybear

02-10-16, 20:27

What? You said: "part of the BRS and FRS is used to buy insurance in case they to live beyond 95"?

So it seems that what you are saying is similar to minority?
I don't know who have been perpetuating such rumor, because as far as I can see, nobody from CPF formally talked about buying insurance from insurance company!

If indeed CPF actually buy insurance for CPF Life members, then could you or anybody (including CPF) tells us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?

2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?

3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?

4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?

5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

6) What are the management fees, over-head charges etc that CPF is levying on managing CPF Life?

If nobody has answer to the above, then we can only conclude that "part of the BRS and FRS is used to buy insurance in case they to live beyond 95" is just a rumour!

To tell the truth, there is really no need for CPF Life to buy insurance from insurance company for people who live beyond certain age etc! That is just a waste of money!

See, as long as there is SUFFICIENT (HUGE is NOT necessary) accumulated unpaid SURPLUS in CPF Life (which is just like operating CPF Life like a private retirement annuity, minus all the management fees and overhead charges and their profits etc), these will already act as INSURANCE for those who live much longer than they should, which in effect means that CPF Life members are all cross-insuring the others, so no need to buy insurance from insurance company etc and waste money!

Then you said:
"They don't hide the fact the return is low"
Really?

I thought somebody had enquired in Today newspaper why CPF Life's return is low and MOM replied that CPF Retirement return is 4%-6%?

It is clear from the forum letter that the writer is asking about CPF Life's return (after 65 years old), like what I am writing about.
Anyway, I had already shown that CPF Life's return is NEGATIVE if a man can only live till 80 years old!

So, they don't hide but they avoid answering the question???? :ashamed1:

It is the same like minority trying to avoid my most important questions and lying and bullshitting all the way!

I wish I could help them, the problem is they are too preoccupy in working than living.

CPF life is basically taking the Basic Retirement Sum or Full Retirement Sum and hold it in CPF from 55 to 65 then draw down until 95 part of the BRS and FRS is used to buy insurance in case they to live beyond 95. If not enough CPF than use those paying to offset the payment.

They don't hide the fact the return is low since most will not understand and can do nothing.

Please watch the video so ass to understand why CPF life return is so low........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmJ2sJVEwQU

teddybear

02-10-16, 20:44

I am not interested all those details which are redundant, I only want to know the most important questions (which no one seem to be able to/willing to answer?):

If indeed CPF actually buy insurance for CPF Life members, then could you or anybody (including CPF) tells us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?

2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?

3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?

4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?

5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

6) What are the management fees, over-head charges etc that CPF is levying on managing CPF Life?

7) CPF said they gives 4% return for CPF Life money, so what age we need to live till before we can actually get 4% return?

Seems like nobody can answer all the above most important questions?
Why are they hiding the details???

And who is the bloody idiot who keep spreading rumours and telling people that CPF Life pays money to buy insurance to insure those who live too long???
See, when we ask critical questions about such assertion, nobody can answer! Real or false, we can tell from the answer/non-response!

If got no time at least watch this.

https://youtu.be/22yC3C2jYhc?t=797

Arcachon

02-10-16, 20:53

When they say buy insurance is to tell those who don't know, don't care to know, don't want to know.

For those who know, there is no such insurance.

Ass for the return, those who don't know, don't care to know, don't want to know will take what they say.

For those who know, there is no such return.

LKY already say Singaporean are more stupid than Chinese when the little man from PRC visit us and ask him for help.

LKY tell him the Chinese can do better than us.

teddybear

02-10-16, 21:09

Wow, I am impressed by what you said!

Actually you know very well!

But then why you never advise your friends properly that CPF Life has no such return of 4% as CPF claimed and they should make noise to get such return as CPF claim?
Why should they be short-changed with such misleading claim and getting lower payout for joining CPF Life when in fact they are better off with the old CPF Min Sum payout scheme (which can payout until they are 90.4 years old, long after they would have died!)?

In the past, there was this CPF Min Sum payout scheme that co-exists with CPF Life and CPF Life was so unpopular that they had to scrap CPF Min Sum payout scheme for CPF Life to survive!
If I am managing CPF, I would also want to retain only CPF Life, hei, you know, CPF Life can get so much accumulated unpaid SURPLUSES! These money will be very useful for all kind of purposes, eg pay for those who live too long so they are not a burden to the government and the state (only burden to other CPF Life members!)

When they say buy insurance is to tell those who don't know, don't care to know, don't want to know.

For those who know, there is no such insurance.

Ass for the return, those who don't know, don't care to know, don't want to know will take what they say.

For those who know, there is no such return.

LKY already say Singaporean are more stupid than Chinese when the little man from PRC visit us and ask him for help.

LKY tell him the Chinese can do better than us.

Arcachon

02-10-16, 21:45

I try, some go on become better most stay on and do nothing.

I have one who works max O/T and tells me he is saving a million dollar to buy landed property in Singapore.

In 2009 I told him my 2 bedrooms have just crossed the million dollar mark then he wakes up.

Another told me his agent tell him HDB cannot buy private, I told him I bought one three years ago with HDB.

It is not easy to explain when people chose not to understand.

It is like the people in the book "Richest man in Babylon" none go to the richest man to learn to be rich except one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJlHnFDdfRU

Arcachon

02-10-16, 21:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SEl4yqGTcU

teddybear

02-10-16, 22:20

You said "It is not easy to explain when people chose not to understand."!

However, facts is, when people really chose to understand and want to know more, especially critical questions that matter most, nobody can/is willing to tell the truth!

So, back to my questions, really nobody has all the answers to all my questions?:

If indeed CPF actually buy insurance for CPF Life members, then could you or anybody (including CPF) tells us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?

2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?

3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?

4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?

5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

6) What are the management fees, over-head charges etc that CPF is levying on managing CPF Life?

7) CPF said they gives 4% return for CPF Life money, so what age we need to live till before we can actually get 4% return?

Seems like nobody can answer all the above most important questions?
Why are they hiding the details???

I try, some go on become better most stay on and do nothing.

I have one who works max O/T and tells me he is saving a million dollar to buy landed property in Singapore.

In 2009 I told him my 2 bedrooms have just crossed the million dollar mark then he wakes up.

Another told me his agent tell him HDB cannot buy private, I told him I bought one three years ago with HDB.

It is not easy to explain when people chose not to understand.

It is like the people in the book "Richest man in Babylon" none go to the richest man to learn to be rich except one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJlHnFDdfRU

cbsh38584

03-10-16, 13:20

Considerations on How To Manage Your CPF Money when young - Purchase Properties (HDB or private) with CPF money
=============================================================================================
If u are temporary Ignorant about CPF snowball compounding interest of 4-5% when very young is not a problem . The real problem is most people remains ignorant for
really very long time until it is too late (>age 50) . The worst is that his ignorant about CPF snowball compounding interest of 4-5% continue to his grown up children which
they also dont bother about it.

Let say for whatever reason you still want to use CPF OA for housing even though you have the financial capablilty to use CASH. Or maybe you prefer to CPF-OA (35% ) to invest
into a higher risk higher return investment as 2.5% seem to be very very easy to BEAT. But not many CPF investors are able to beat 2.5%.

Let say at age 35. Both of you (Husband /wife) have a combine CPF-OA (2.5-3.5%) of $200k. Maybe CPF-SA (4-5%) est 35k each.
HDB housing loan 300k @2.6%. So monthly payment using CPF-OA est $1360.

1. How you manage your transfer of your CPF-OA to CPF-SA.
Leave $33k (2 yrs loan amt ) of your combine CPF-OA for your HDB housing loan . The rest consider transfer the balance from
CPF-OA to CPF-SA to meet the full retirement sum (now 161k) as young as possible.

2. Or leave $66k ( 4 yrs loan amt) or your combine CPF-OA for your housing loan. The rest consider transfer the bal from
CPF-OA to CPF-SA to meet the full retirement sum (now 161k) as young as possible.

You can do the same as your private ppty at your comfort level. If you dont have a plan to prepare for your retirement & you screw it up when young.
You are likely to plan to fail.

ANZ latest promtion Fixed D for 8 mtths tenor is 1.15%.

I would rather voluntary cash (VC) contribution into my CPF acct earning 2.5% to 4%. I still can use my CPF-OA for my housing loan if need arise.

If you have met your Medisave acct ceiling (49.8k) & SA ceiling (161k) & your age is 46-50.
If your VC $3k/mth or $37.7k/yr into your CPF acct. It will split only CPF SA (21.6% of 3k or 21.6% of $37.7k) ) & CPF OA (78.4% of 3k or $37.7k).
If I will to buy a new ppty. I still can use my CPF-OA for my housing loan .

richwang

03-10-16, 20:56

http://investmentmoats.com/uncategorized/6-reasons-top-cpf-special-account-cash-cpf-ordinary-account/
6 Reasons not to Voluntary Top Up your CPF Special Account with Cash or CPF Ordinary Account

richwang

03-10-16, 21:00

https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Employers/EmployerGuides/employer-guides/paying-cpf-contributions/voluntary-contributions-for-your-employees

VC is done by employer.

richwang

03-10-16, 21:07

If I will to buy a new ppty. I still can use my CPF-OA for my housing loan .

Have you read the fine prints?
https://www.cpf.gov.sg/Assets/employers/Documents/FORM_RSSTPC.pdf

Cannot be used to buy property or investment.

cbsh38584

04-10-16, 07:43

ANZ latest promtion Fixed D for 8 mtths tenor is 1.15%.

I would rather voluntary cash (VC) contribution into my CPF acct earning 2.5% to 4%. I still can use my CPF-OA for my housing loan if need arise.

If you have met your Medisave acct ceiling (49.8k) & SA ceiling (161k) & your age is 46-50.
If your VC $3k/mth or $37.7k/yr into your CPF acct. It will split only CPF SA (21.6% of 3k or 21.6% of $37.7k) ) & CPF OA (78.4% of 3k or $37.7k).
If I will to buy a new ppty. I still can use my CPF-OA for my housing loan .

As long you have met the Full retirement sum ,FRS of 161k (now 161k. By 2020 est 181k). You will able to use your excess CPF-OA for housing.

If you have reserved CASH (let say 300k) for your future ppty purchase & you still "OWN CPF" + acurred interest (let say 200k). Why dont
you return partial what u have used it for your HDB or private ppty + accured interest. U are still able to use back the CPF-OA for your future private
ppty purchase if u decide to buy. 1st 5% is CASH. The next 15% & stamp fee can use CPF-OA.

But if your CPF-SA have not met the FRS of 161k. U may or may not able to use CPF-OA for 2nd ppty. U need to check with CPF board.

Pls take note that your have est 161k in your CPF-SA at age 55. Your real own salary + employer contribution is est only 80k+. The rest of the
amt (est 80k) is due to the compounded interest accumuated for 30 yrs. At age 55, your 161k will transfer to a new CPF retirement acct (RA).
Dont bother to argue whether CPF life is not so good is not really important. It is the 4%-5% in your SA acct that is very very important. It is able to
help you with a decent retirement at age 55-60 if you plan wise by ONLY transfer your own CPF-OA to SA to meet the FRS as young as possible.
Then let the compounded interest effect grow & grow . At age 55-60. You can say BYE BYE to TENSION. HELLO PENSION.

It is the same for the children CDA acct. I contribute own 6k into my son CDA acct & govt will immediately match $6k. So total is $12k earning 2.5% yearly.
By age 30, the $12k in my son CDA acct will grow est to 24k & will transfer to my son CPF OA acct whatever it is left over. I prefer not to use it. Treat is as
a "endowment fund" which can be used for ploy or local university education if need arise. If not, I shall leave untouch till age 30.

I only contribute $6k (age 1) & it grow to $24k (age 30) thirty yrs later.What a super return but with govt incentive (govt money=$6k) + 30 yrs compounded interest.

All incentive (CDA acct + 4k medisave into new born baby & 2.5% -5% interest in the CPF acct) given by the govt is all about LONG TERM plan. If you are impatience,
you will not enjoy the incentive given by the govt.

Kelonguni

04-10-16, 10:18

That is good advice for those clueless what to do with 12K excess funds. Locking it in 2.5% growth account is good.

But for me, I prefer to draw all out and wait for market opportunities. One year just 1 or 2 windows can earn over 25%. But it requires gut and foresight.

As long you have met the Full retirement sum ,FRS of 161k (now 161k. By 2020 est 181k). You will able to use your excess CPF-OA for housing.

If you have reserved CASH (let say 300k) for your future ppty purchase & you still "OWN CPF" + acurred interest (let say 200k). Why dont
you return partial what u have used it for your HDB or private ppty + accured interest. U are still able to use back the CPF-OA for your future private
ppty purchase if u decide to buy. 1st 5% is CASH. The next 15% & stamp fee can use CPF-OA.

But if your CPF-SA have not met the FRS of 161k. U may or may not able to use CPF-OA for 2nd ppty. U need to check with CPF board.

Pls take note that your have est 161k in your CPF-SA at age 55. Your real own salary + employer contribution is est only 80k+. The rest of the
amt (est 80k) is due to the compounded interest accumuated for 30 yrs. At age 55, your 161k will transfer to a new CPF retirement acct (RA).
Dont bother to argue whether CPF life is not so good is not really important. It is the 4%-5% in your SA acct that is very very important. It is able to
help you with a decent retirement at age 55-60 if you plan wise by ONLY transfer your own CPF-OA to SA to meet the FRS as young as possible.
Then let the compounded interest effect grow & grow . At age 55-60. You can say BYE BYE to TENSION. HELLO PENSION.

It is the same for the children CDA acct. I contribute own 6k into my son CDA acct & govt will immediately match $6k. So total is $12k earning 2.5% yearly.
By age 30, the $12k in my son CDA acct will grow est to 24k & will transfer to my son CPF OA acct whatever it is left over. I prefer not to use it. Treat is as
a "endowment fund" which can be used for ploy or local university education if need arise. If not, I shall leave untouch till age 30.

I only contribute $6k (age 1) & it grow to $24k (age 30) thirty yrs later.What a super return but with govt incentive (govt money=$6k) + 30 yrs compounded interest.

All incentive (CDA acct + 4k medisave into new born baby & 2.5% -5% interest in the CPF acct) given by the govt is all about LONG TERM plan. If you are impatience,
you will not enjoy the incentive given by the govt.

minority

04-10-16, 23:09

I am not interested all those details which are redundant, I only want to know the most important questions (which no one seem to be able to/willing to answer?):

If indeed CPF actually buy insurance for CPF Life members, then could you or anybody (including CPF) tells us:

1) Which insurance company CPF Life buys annuity from?

2) Did CPF open a call-for-tender to get the best annuity deal from all insurance companies available for CPF Life members?

3) How much CPF is paying to buy the annuity for men, women, and for different age groups?

4) How much interest is the annuity paying for a person who can live till average age of 80 years old? What is the difference between men and women?

5) Where is the financial report for CPF Life which dictates how much annuity premiums paid per year, how much accumulated unpaid reserves etc in CPF Life over the years (because of low CPF Life payout amount)?

6) What are the management fees, over-head charges etc that CPF is levying on managing CPF Life?

7) CPF said they gives 4% return for CPF Life money, so what age we need to live till before we can actually get 4% return?

Seems like nobody can answer all the above most important questions?
Why are they hiding the details???

And who is the bloody idiot who keep spreading rumours and telling people that CPF Life pays money to buy insurance to insure those who live too long???
See, when we ask critical questions about such assertion, nobody can answer! Real or false, we can tell from the answer/non-response!

Who the FXXX care a a numb nut like you think or want to know? WTF CARE!!!!

teddybear

05-10-16, 00:28

minority,
You have been sprouting lots of lies and bullshits here about lots of things, this time about CPF Life, and when we questioned you more on your FALSE claim, you can't answer anymore and say don't care?
Ha ha ha!

Don't care despite trying to lie initially about CPF Life buying insurance from insurance company and that CPF Life has "Betroth" when you die???

Truth is: People participating in CPF Life has been short-changed with low CPF Life Payout!
CPF Life will have/already have lots of accumulated unpaid SURPLUS! How much is that?
Have much is CPF charging CPF Life for management fees, overheads, etc?

Will be interesting to know BUT looks like nobody willing to tell?
CPF Life now is like a black-box with no financial statement and report, nobody knows what is happening in there??? :crushed:

Who the FXXX care a a numb nut like you think or want to know? WTF CARE!!!!

Arcachon

05-10-16, 10:29

This is how things are done for us because we are not so SMART to understand, to find out, to know, too busy working overtime and climbing over one another to go higher.

cbsh38584

05-10-16, 19:06

Swiber was voted “Best Under a Billion Company” by Forbes Asia as well as the one of the top-ranked companies in 2006.
The price was @$6.50 in 2007. It was suspended last mth & price was @0.11.

Investing is a risky biz if you decide to take higher risk for growth companies. IQ along will not make u successful investing.
You need EQ. If your trades have gone bad & going to be bad. You need to have the courage to cut loss asap. Sad to say
that only 10% of the investors can master the courage to CUT. The other 90% will wait & HOPE & HOPE it will recover or
recover to at least CUTTING loss is less painful. But it never comes & you become a very long term investors. The companies
keep issue RIGHT shares many times & worst of all, Finally "KAPUT" Chapter 11.

Buying JUNK bond with small issue size is very risky. When times is bad. You got no chance to sell at your preferred price
due it low liquidilty . It will be a super low price to get it done. Worst of all, totally no price in the mkt at all.

Never put into everything in one basket. Sad to say that even a person who got a very high IQ failed it. It is due to GREED.

That is why I say it is better concentrate to put excess $ into CPF. It is AAA rating & guarantee. Too much CASH on hand will
make you "HAND ITCHES" to take ignorant risk. Ppty is safe but the TDSR & ABSD kills most of the potential nvestors which
would otherwise invest in ppty rather than RISKY ILLQUID JUNK BOND.

Arcachon

05-10-16, 20:03

They don't call Singapore a Nanny state for nothing.

Don't know how to invest, they got CPF life.

Don't know about property, they got HDB. Lease to you 99 years and tell you you own it.

Don't know how to take care of you Health, they got Medishield.

Don't know how to educate your child, they got all type of education for your child.

Don't know how to save, they got CPF.

Don't know, Don't care, Don't want to think, no problem they have people to think on your behalf.

minority

06-10-16, 13:11

minority,
You have been sprouting lots of lies and bullshits here about lots of things, this time about CPF Life, and when we questioned you more on your FALSE claim, you can't answer anymore and say don't care?
Ha ha ha!

Don't care despite trying to lie initially about CPF Life buying insurance from insurance company and that CPF Life has "Betroth" when you die???

Truth is: People participating in CPF Life has been short-changed with low CPF Life Payout!
CPF Life will have/already have lots of accumulated unpaid SURPLUS! How much is that?
Have much is CPF charging CPF Life for management fees, overheads, etc?

Will be interesting to know BUT looks like nobody willing to tell?
CPF Life now is like a black-box with no financial statement and report, nobody knows what is happening in there??? :crushed:

OH YOU ARE LIKE THE DONAL TRUMP..... OPEN YOUR MOUTH IS BULL SHIT COME OUT.!!! CAN YOU SHOW US PROFF THAT THATE ARE A LOT OF UNPAID SURPLUS????? CAN YOU SHOW US? DONT JUST OPEN THAT A.HOLE ON YOUR FACE AND JUST LET SHIT FLOW OUT AND TRY TO CONVIENCE US THATS FACTS!

SHOW US PROOF I CHALLENGE U!

teddybear

06-10-16, 13:19

minority,
You are full of shit and lies lah!
CPF Life is like a black-box, and refused to open their book & publish their financial statements for everyone to see, and you ask me to show what is like a state-secret concerning other people's own money?

You should go ask CPF to show you CPF Life financial statements to verify! Based on my calculations, there will be lots of unpaid surpluses (because CPF Life payout is too low)! :tongue-fingers:

OH YOU ARE LIKE THE DONAL TRUMP..... OPEN YOUR MOUTH IS BULL SHIT COME OUT.!!! CAN YOU SHOW US PROFF THAT THATE ARE A LOT OF UNPAID SURPLUS????? CAN YOU SHOW US? DONT JUST OPEN THAT A.HOLE ON YOUR FACE AND JUST LET SHIT FLOW OUT AND TRY TO CONVIENCE US THATS FACTS!

SHOW US PROOF I CHALLENGE U!

minority

06-10-16, 13:56

minority,
You are full of shit and lies lah!
CPF Life is like a black-box, and refused to open their book & publish their financial statements for everyone to see, and you ask me to show what is like a state-secret concerning other people's own money?

You should go ask CPF to show you CPF Life financial statements to verify! Based on my calculations, there will be lots of unpaid surpluses (because CPF Life payout is too low)! :tongue-fingers:

YOU REALLY TALK SHIT.. SO GO ASK CPF KPKB HERE ! AND YET YOU HAVE NOT SHOW PROOF THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF SUPLUS LEH??? BUT NOW YOU SAY U DONNO BUT LAST POSTING YOU SAY THERE ARE A LOT OF SUPLUS!!! YOU ARE LIKE THE DONAL TRUMP!!! YOU ARE DONAL DUCK!!! QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK....

FULL OF SHIT!

teddybear

06-10-16, 18:55

minority,
Only you a financial idiot like you who think CPF has "BETROTH" when you die will not know how to calculate payout rate and surpluses. :middle-finger:

I don't need to see the financial statements also can know....... The exact amount figure only CPF will know........
You want to continue to deny CPF Life has no accumulated surplus? Then go ask CPF to reveal the financial statements! CPF Life is other people's money, why CPF treat it like state secret??? :emmersed:

YOU REALLY TALK SHIT.. SO GO ASK CPF KPKB HERE ! AND YET YOU HAVE NOT SHOW PROOF THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF SUPLUS LEH??? BUT NOW YOU SAY U DONNO BUT LAST POSTING YOU SAY THERE ARE A LOT OF SUPLUS!!! YOU ARE LIKE THE DONAL TRUMP!!! YOU ARE DONAL DUCK!!! QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK....

FULL OF SHIT!

minority

06-10-16, 20:30

minority,
Only you a financial idiot like you who think CPF has "BETROTH" when you die will not know how to calculate payout rate and surpluses. :middle-finger:

I don't need to see the financial statements also can know....... The exact amount figure only CPF will know........
You want to continue to deny CPF Life has no accumulated surplus? Then go ask CPF to reveal the financial statements! CPF Life is other people's money, why CPF treat it like state secret??? :emmersed:

WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT! NOW YOU ADMIT YOU DONNO! FEW POST BEFORE YOU ARE SURE THERE IS SURPLUS! NOW WHEN I ASK YOU SHOW PROOF YOU SAY U DONT KNOW BUT YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT . ARE YOU HAVING A DONALD TRUMP MOMENT?? MORE LIKE DONALD DUCK!!!!

WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT!

https://media.giphy.com/media/xThuW0HziTz8RTMJ68/giphy.gif

teddybear

06-10-16, 21:53

minority,
Don't bullshit lah!

Just based on the payout figures provided by CPF and the available age statistics, I am sure there will be surplus and there will be lots of lots of SURPLUSES!
The question is HOW MUCH IS IT?!

I am NOT like you, a financial idiot who knows NOTHING and yet going around telling people that CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die and you have GREAT PAYOUT given that CPF Life needs to buy insurance from insurance company to protect your payout! This is just a bunch of LIES! (Even Arachon (a non-financial person) also knows that, this just goes to show how bloody stupid idiot or rather bloody LIAR you are!)

Why you so scare people ask about CPF Life SURPLUSES? :tongue-fingers:
Actually, all CPF Life members have the right to know how much CPF Life accumlated unpaid SURPLUSES there are because these come from their money!
Why so secretive about it?

WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT! NOW YOU ADMIT YOU DONNO! FEW POST BEFORE YOU ARE SURE THERE IS SURPLUS! NOW WHEN I ASK YOU SHOW PROOF YOU SAY U DONT KNOW BUT YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT . ARE YOU HAVING A DONALD TRUMP MOMENT?? MORE LIKE DONALD DUCK!!!!

WHAT A LOAD OF SHIT!

https://media.giphy.com/media/xThuW0HziTz8RTMJ68/giphy.gif

minority

07-10-16, 10:18

minority,
Don't bullshit lah!

Just based on the payout figures provided by CPF and the available age statistics, I am sure there will be surplus and there will be lots of lots of SURPLUSES!
The question is HOW MUCH IS IT?!

I am NOT like you, a financial idiot who knows NOTHING and yet going around telling people that CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die and you have GREAT PAYOUT given that CPF Life needs to buy insurance from insurance company to protect your payout! This is just a bunch of LIES! (Even Arachon (a non-financial person) also knows that, this just goes to show how bloody stupid idiot or rather bloody LIAR you are!)

Why you so scare people ask about CPF Life SURPLUSES? :tongue-fingers:
Actually, all CPF Life members have the right to know how much CPF Life accumlated unpaid SURPLUSES there are because these come from their money!
Why so secretive about it?

You are the one here saying you are so sure there is surplus!!! so show us? I CALL IT! I CALL YOUR ASS TO SHOW US !!!!!!

WHY? U SCARED TO SHOW ANY PROOF ON YOUR CLAIMS?? WHY YOU SCARED PEOPLE QUESTION YOU ON YOUR EMPTY CLAIMS??

teddybear

07-10-16, 21:28

minority,

You are just repeating the same OLD THING, like a PARROT that made NO sense.....
Only CPF has the financial statements, and you don't ask them to show you and you ask me?

I am NOT a FINANCIAL IDIOT like you who can tell everyone that CPF Life has "BETROTH" when a CPF Life member die and that CPF Life buys insurance from insurance company! What a bunch of LIES! :hopelessness:

As opposed to you, based on my financial calculations, I am sure there will be LOTS of SURPLUSES in CPF Life!

You want PROOF? Go ask CPF to be more transparent loh (don't treat other people's money like theirs and kept it a secret! Is it because they thought like that then they can pay low payout and so that FINANCIAL IDIOT like you will NOT know?!) :hornybastard:

You are the one here saying you are so sure there is surplus!!! so show us? I CALL IT! I CALL YOUR ASS TO SHOW US !!!!!!

WHY? U SCARED TO SHOW ANY PROOF ON YOUR CLAIMS?? WHY YOU SCARED PEOPLE QUESTION YOU ON YOUR EMPTY CLAIMS??

minority

08-10-16, 00:30

minority,

You are just repeating the same OLD THING, like a PARROT that made NO sense.....
Only CPF has the financial statements, and you don't ask them to show you and you ask me?

I am NOT a FINANCIAL IDIOT like you who can tell everyone that CPF Life has "BETROTH" when a CPF Life member die and that CPF Life buys insurance from insurance company! What a bunch of LIES! :hopelessness:

As opposed to you, based on my financial calculations, I am sure there will be LOTS of SURPLUSES in CPF Life!

You want PROOF? Go ask CPF to be more transparent loh (don't treat other people's money like theirs and kept it a secret! Is it because they thought like that then they can pay low payout and so that FINANCIAL IDIOT like you will NOT know?!) :hornybastard:

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIM THERE ARE A LOT OF SURPLUS! SO SINCE YOU CLAIM IT NATUARALLY ASK YOU TO SHOW US! WHY CANNOT SHOW U WANT TO CLAIM? WAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

teddybear

08-10-16, 00:38

Wow!
I am wondering whether CPF would have liked your style very much???

As long as they don't reveal CPF Life's Financial Statements, they, just like you, can tell people that "Please show us that there are LOTS of SURPLUSES in CPF Life! Show, Wat a load of crap you are saying!"

Wow! Is that what people called "官字两个口"???? :hornybastard:
(Except that they, like you, better don't treat people like an idiot!
minority, you have shown yourself to be the BIGGEST IDIOT here!)

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIM THERE ARE A LOT OF SURPLUS! SO SINCE YOU CLAIM IT NATUARALLY ASK YOU TO SHOW US! WHY CANNOT SHOW U WANT TO CLAIM? WAT A LOAD OF CRAP!

minority

09-10-16, 09:55

Wow!
I am wondering whether CPF would have liked your style very much???

As long as they don't reveal CPF Life's Financial Statements, they, just like you, can tell people that "Please show us that there are LOTS of SURPLUSES in CPF Life! Show, Wat a load of crap you are saying!"

Wow! Is that what people called "官字两个口"???? :hornybastard:
(Except that they, like you, better don't treat people like an idiot!
minority, you have shown yourself to be the BIGGEST IDIOT here!)

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIM IT ?? WHAT AM I HEARING?? NOW BACK TRACKING THAT YOU ARE SO SURE?? NOW YOU ARE NOT SURE?? LOL SO MUCH FOR YOUR BULL SHIT CRAP LIES!

teddybear

10-10-16, 18:26

I thought I was the first one to point out that CPF will have huge accumulated unpaid surplus from CPF but sadly just realized that someone already pointed that out in 2009!

minority,
If you are so stupid, you can read the below from the linked web address because they have provided the detail calculations:

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations

I have made some back-of-the-envelope CPF Life calculations. This example is for a male participant who has $67,000 cash in his CPF Minimum Sum (assuming a total Minimum Sum of $134,000, of which half is property pledge, and half is cash savings).

These are my assumptions:

The Government makes a consistent rate of return of 5% on ALL of its funds under management. That is, the Government is able to invest both the Retirement Account (RA) and Refundable Premium (RP) at an ROI of 5%. Any amount left in the RA is distributed to beneficiaries upon demise, but the RP fund is not. The RP fund is the “common pool” used to provide perpetual income for surviving members.
The investment return on the RP fund is NOT accrued to the CPF member’s account but instead held in Government coffers. ONLY the investment return on the RA is accrued to the CPF member’s account and distributed to beneficiaries in the event of early demise.
Monthly income of $610 begins at age 65.
The member chooses the default plan.
When the member is between the ages of 65 and 80, I am assuming his contribution to the RP fund is not used to provide monthly payments — only the RA funds inclusive of interested earned are drawn down to provide the monthly payments.
I am also assuming that after the age of 80, the Government starts paying off the member using the pooled RP fund including any residual amount left in the RA, while continuing to invest the pooled fund at an ROI of 5%. However from this point onwards, none of the interest earned is accrued to the member’s CPF account as the RA portion has become nonexistent.

The following table shows the balance amount in the member’s RA and RP account at each age from 55 to 95, the amount that the beneficiaries would get in the event of demise, as well as the net profit that the Government earns from the scheme, which is the interest earned from the RP pool minus the cumulative payouts made to the CPF member.

The member gets $7,320 per year, based on a monthly income of $610. As can be seen from the table, the RA fund has insufficient balance to pay the member by age 80, and subsequent payouts are made from the pooled account.
By the age of 80, the Government is estimated to have as much as $38,373 net profit. That is a HUGE profit for the Government! In fact, the net profit for the Government increases to a high of $45,723 by the time the member reaches age 83! Clearly if the CPF member passes away around the ages of 80-85, the Government stands to earn a LOT OF MONEY from the scheme! This is because the interest earned on RP fund is NOT given to the beneficiary but kept in the common pool upon the member’s death.
As can also be seen from the table, the amount of money that left outstanding in the member’s account rapidly diminishes after 80, so that by age 84, the beneficiary would get NOTHING in the event of demise of the member. However, the Government coffers still have a lot of cash. There is enough cash in the Government coffers to pay the member $610 per month for several more years while still maintaining profitability from the scheme. It is only AFTER the age of 90 that the Government starts losing money on the scheme.

This back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that even assuming the Government is right about half of CPF Life participants surviving to 85 years of age, the Government will clearly make a net profit from most members, given that comparatively fewer members will make it past 90 years of age.

It is therefore very fair to assume that the Government could perpetually generate large surpluses from the scheme, especially when we take into account the fact that premiums and monthly payouts will be altered in accordance with morality experience and the return of investments, thereby ensuring that the Government seldom goes into deficit in any particular year.

In conclusion
The CPF Life scheme is an attempt to repair a national pension system that has become inadequate in sustaining members through old age. The reason why the CPF system has become deficient in the first place is because of persistently low interest rates paid on CPF accounts, which has prevented members from building their wealth, as well as members having to pay a large amount of funds towards their property. As a result of these two factors, and to some extent the inadequacies of the Medisave system in taking care of members’ medical needs, the CPF Life scheme is needed to fill the gaps of this sinking ship.

My back-of-the-envelope calculation coupled with the Government’s current stand that premiums and monthly payouts will be altered in accordance with morality experience and the return of investments shows that even when implementing the CPF Life scheme, the Government is mercenery enough to insist that it has virtually a 100% chance of making a good profit from the scheme.

My take therefore is not that people should be made to adhere to the principles of self-reliance and self-provision at all cost, but that the Government should be weened of its reliance on the people to fatten its already bulging coffers, and instead help provide for the peoples’ retirement from its massive vaults which house the blood and toil of generations past. (http://www.sgpolitics.net/?p=3433)

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIM IT ?? WHAT AM I HEARING?? NOW BACK TRACKING THAT YOU ARE SO SURE?? NOW YOU ARE NOT SURE?? LOL SO MUCH FOR YOUR BULL SHIT CRAP LIES!

minority

10-10-16, 23:58

I thought I was the first one to point out that CPF will have huge accumulated unpaid surplus from CPF but sadly just realized that someone already pointed that out in 2009!

minority,
If you are so stupid, you can read the below from the linked web address because they have provided the detail calculations:

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations

I have made some back-of-the-envelope CPF Life calculations. This example is for a male participant who has $67,000 cash in his CPF Minimum Sum (assuming a total Minimum Sum of $134,000, of which half is property pledge, and half is cash savings).

These are my assumptions:

The Government makes a consistent rate of return of 5% on ALL of its funds under management. That is, the Government is able to invest both the Retirement Account (RA) and Refundable Premium (RP) at an ROI of 5%. Any amount left in the RA is distributed to beneficiaries upon demise, but the RP fund is not. The RP fund is the “common pool” used to provide perpetual income for surviving members.
The investment return on the RP fund is NOT accrued to the CPF member’s account but instead held in Government coffers. ONLY the investment return on the RA is accrued to the CPF member’s account and distributed to beneficiaries in the event of early demise.
Monthly income of $610 begins at age 65.
The member chooses the default plan.
When the member is between the ages of 65 and 80, I am assuming his contribution to the RP fund is not used to provide monthly payments — only the RA funds inclusive of interested earned are drawn down to provide the monthly payments.
I am also assuming that after the age of 80, the Government starts paying off the member using the pooled RP fund including any residual amount left in the RA, while continuing to invest the pooled fund at an ROI of 5%. However from this point onwards, none of the interest earned is accrued to the member’s CPF account as the RA portion has become nonexistent.

The following table shows the balance amount in the member’s RA and RP account at each age from 55 to 95, the amount that the beneficiaries would get in the event of demise, as well as the net profit that the Government earns from the scheme, which is the interest earned from the RP pool minus the cumulative payouts made to the CPF member.

The member gets $7,320 per year, based on a monthly income of $610. As can be seen from the table, the RA fund has insufficient balance to pay the member by age 80, and subsequent payouts are made from the pooled account.
By the age of 80, the Government is estimated to have as much as $38,373 net profit. That is a HUGE profit for the Government! In fact, the net profit for the Government increases to a high of $45,723 by the time the member reaches age 83! Clearly if the CPF member passes away around the ages of 80-85, the Government stands to earn a LOT OF MONEY from the scheme! This is because the interest earned on RP fund is NOT given to the beneficiary but kept in the common pool upon the member’s death.
As can also be seen from the table, the amount of money that left outstanding in the member’s account rapidly diminishes after 80, so that by age 84, the beneficiary would get NOTHING in the event of demise of the member. However, the Government coffers still have a lot of cash. There is enough cash in the Government coffers to pay the member $610 per month for several more years while still maintaining profitability from the scheme. It is only AFTER the age of 90 that the Government starts losing money on the scheme.

This back-of-the-envelope calculation shows that even assuming the Government is right about half of CPF Life participants surviving to 85 years of age, the Government will clearly make a net profit from most members, given that comparatively fewer members will make it past 90 years of age.

It is therefore very fair to assume that the Government could perpetually generate large surpluses from the scheme, especially when we take into account the fact that premiums and monthly payouts will be altered in accordance with morality experience and the return of investments, thereby ensuring that the Government seldom goes into deficit in any particular year.

In conclusion
The CPF Life scheme is an attempt to repair a national pension system that has become inadequate in sustaining members through old age. The reason why the CPF system has become deficient in the first place is because of persistently low interest rates paid on CPF accounts, which has prevented members from building their wealth, as well as members having to pay a large amount of funds towards their property. As a result of these two factors, and to some extent the inadequacies of the Medisave system in taking care of members’ medical needs, the CPF Life scheme is needed to fill the gaps of this sinking ship.

My back-of-the-envelope calculation coupled with the Government’s current stand that premiums and monthly payouts will be altered in accordance with morality experience and the return of investments shows that even when implementing the CPF Life scheme, the Government is mercenery enough to insist that it has virtually a 100% chance of making a good profit from the scheme.

My take therefore is not that people should be made to adhere to the principles of self-reliance and self-provision at all cost, but that the Government should be weened of its reliance on the people to fatten its already bulging coffers, and instead help provide for the peoples’ retirement from its massive vaults which house the blood and toil of generations past. (http://www.sgpolitics.net/?p=3433)

IS THIS BULLSHIT THE BEST YOU CAN DO???? QUOTE SOME RETURN MY CPF BULL JUST LIKE U! A FRAUD!

1. YOU SAY YOU ARE SURE THERE IS SUPLUS AND UR SO CALL SURE IS QUOTE SOME DUBIOUS SITE? WOW!! MUST CLAP FOR YOUR BULL!
2. WHAT BACK OF THE ENVELOPE BULL!!! YOU MEAN THE RETURN CAN BE 5% WOW WHERE THAT NO. COME FROM SOME ASS PULL OUT? 5% IS PAID OUT TO THE RA IT GO INTO THE ANNUNITY! YOU PAID FOR A ANNUNITY U STILL CAN GET 5%? WHICH COMPANY GET THAT FOR YOU?
3. WHY NEVER SAY WHERE THE BEAK OUT OF $ GO TO? THE ONE WITH BEQUEST TO THE ONE WITHOUT? THE DRAW DOWN MTHLY NO NEED CERTAINTY? WOW YOU MEAN CAN GENERATE 5% AND YET STILL HAVE CERTAINTY ON THE PRINCIPLE AND DRAW DOWN SUI SUI?? THAT BACK OF THE ENVELOPE BULLSHIT LIKE YOU ARE A FRAUD!
4. THE MONEY GO INTO THE A SHARED POOL. WHY NEVER MENTION PEOPLE WHO LIVE LONGER STILL DRAW DOWN? WHO PAY FOR THOSE DRAW DOWN? MAGIC? ITS LIKE INSURANCE!!! SHARE RISK POOL !!! SOME LIVE LONGER SOME SHORTER!!!! IF ALL LIVE LONGER THEN THE POOL WILL NOT BE ENOUGH AND PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE!!! YOU DOUBLE FACE DUMB ASS!!!

GLEAN THROUGH FACTS FUDGE IT WHEN QUESTION QUOTE SOME DUBIOUS SITES AS YOUR FACT!!!!

BLOODY FRAUD AND LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

teddybear

11-10-16, 00:07

minority,

Fraud can only be committed by people holding the account, I am not in charge of the account, how to commit Fraud?
Furthermore, fraud can only be easily tempted and committed when nobody knows what is in the account there, so people are wise to ask for financial statements to be published and circulated openly to prevent and deter fraud..........

As to LIES, you have made LOTS of them!
Every one can see the proof here already regarding your lies on your FALSE CLAIMS:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!

Minority, why don't you prove your above 2 CLAIMS?
Ha ha ha!
What a bunch of BULLSHIT and LIES! :moon:

IS THIS BULLSHIT THE BEST YOU CAN DO???? QUOTE SOME RETURN MY CPF BULL JUST LIKE U! A FRAUD!

1. YOU SAY YOU ARE SURE THERE IS SUPLUS AND UR SO CALL SURE IS QUOTE SOME DUBIOUS SITE? WOW!! MUST CLAP FOR YOUR BULL!
2. WHAT BACK OF THE ENVELOPE BULL!!! YOU MEAN THE RETURN CAN BE 5% WOW WHERE THAT NO. COME FROM SOME ASS PULL OUT? 5% IS PAID OUT TO THE RA IT GO INTO THE ANNUNITY! YOU PAID FOR A ANNUNITY U STILL CAN GET 5%? WHICH COMPANY GET THAT FOR YOU?
3. WHY NEVER SAY WHERE THE BEAK OUT OF $ GO TO? THE ONE WITH BEQUEST TO THE ONE WITHOUT? THE DRAW DOWN MTHLY NO NEED CERTAINTY? WOW YOU MEAN CAN GENERATE 5% AND YET STILL HAVE CERTAINTY ON THE PRINCIPLE AND DRAW DOWN SUI SUI?? THAT BACK OF THE ENVELOPE BULLSHIT LIKE YOU ARE A FRAUD!
4. THE MONEY GO INTO THE A SHARED POOL. WHY NEVER MENTION PEOPLE WHO LIVE LONGER STILL DRAW DOWN? WHO PAY FOR THOSE DRAW DOWN? MAGIC? ITS LIKE INSURANCE!!! SHARE RISK POOL !!! SOME LIVE LONGER SOME SHORTER!!!! IF ALL LIVE LONGER THEN THE POOL WILL NOT BE ENOUGH AND PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE!!! YOU DOUBLE FACE DUMB ASS!!!

GLEAN THROUGH FACTS FUDGE IT WHEN QUESTION QUOTE SOME DUBIOUS SITES AS YOUR FACT!!!!

BLOODY FRAUD AND LIAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

minority

11-10-16, 00:11

teddybear

11-10-16, 08:56

minority,

Based on your definitions, you MUST HAVE already committed 2 FRAUDS on
your FALSE CLAIMS:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!

So much so for talking about fraud!

Oh minority,
by the way, is claiming higher return you would receive than you ACTUALLY get also considered as "FRAUD"???

AGAIN BULL SHIT LET ME HELP YOU EXPLAIN THE MEANING WHAT FRAUD IS . BUT I GUESS YOU KNOW ALREADY BLOODY LIAR!!!

THIS IS FOR SOMEONE WHO CLAIM FOR SURE THERE ARE SUPLUS !!!! THEN SAY HE READ FROM SOME BULL SHIT SITE!!! WOW!!!!

fraud
frɔːd/
noun

-a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.
"mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds"
synonyms: impostor, fake, sham, pretender, hoodwinker, masquerader, charlatan, quack, mountebank; More

minority,

Fraud can only be committed by people holding the account, I am not in charge of the account, how to commit Fraud?
Furthermore, fraud can only be easily tempted and committed when nobody knows what is in the account there, so people are wise to ask for financial statements to be published and circulated openly to prevent and deter fraud..........

As to LIES, you have made LOTS of them!
Every one can see the proof here already regarding your lies on your FALSE CLAIMS:
1) CPF Life has "BETROTH" when you die!
2) CPF Life buys insurance for their members from insurance company!

Minority, why don't you prove your above 2 CLAIMS?
Ha ha ha!
What a bunch of BULLSHIT and LIES! :moon:

cbsh38584

14-10-16, 14:30

Hi cpf board officer,

I would like to enquire on cash top up to special account.

Assume I do cash top up 7k for 20 years from age 30 to 50, when I reach 55, this 140k has accumulated to 250k, and my monthly salary contribution is 200k. Assume the FRS is 200k (though should be much higher), I can withdraw 50k (250k cash top up - 200k) +200k (monthly salary contribution) total of 250k right?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply from CPF office,

Dear Sir,

Thank you for taking time to write to us on 17 August 2016.

The cash top-ups will be used to set aside the Full Retirement Sum of $200,000 at age 55.

Yes, you can withdraw the remaining cash top-ups of $50,000 as well as the contributions of $200,000.

For more information, please visit www.cpf.gov.sg. If you would like assistance, please call 1800 227 1188 from Monday to Friday, 8am to 5.30pm.

Yours sincerely
CPF officer

===================================================================================================================================
For those who are self employer. You are only required to contribute to MEDISAVE acct. You can voluntary cash either to OA,SA & MA or ONLY to Special acct.

My friend (married) who is self employer. He got totally no discipline to save for rainy day. 7 yrs ago I met with him. He told me he spent almost $20k+ on KaraOK girls. Just met him recently. I cant believe he said it has spent >$100k on KaraOK girls for the past 10yrs. Now he seldom go to KaraOK as he got less money to spend due to big slow down in biz. When you are self employed. During good times, if you did not plan for retirement need either through CPF cash contribution or insurance saving plan etc. You will likely to suffer when there is a serious long downturn . U need to Remember that continuous prosperity is not guarantee. "Dig you well way ahead b4 you get thirty".

Kelonguni

14-10-16, 16:09

The small risk is if you transfer until 40 years old and suddenly can't work. All the money will be stuck there because may even struggle to meet MS.

But if already have excess cash then why not?

cbsh38584

18-10-16, 23:01

minority

19-10-16, 14:48

The small risk is if you transfer until 40 years old and suddenly can't work. All the money will be stuck there because may even struggle to meet MS.

But if already have excess cash then why not?

If its due to sickness CPF do allow access to the funds.

Kelonguni

19-10-16, 17:11

If its due to sickness CPF do allow access to the funds.

The first question is... how sick?

The second question is... is sickness the only reason for one being unable to work?

minority

19-10-16, 19:26

The first question is... how sick?

The second question is... is sickness the only reason for one being unable to work?

What other reason can one find for unable to work? refuse to work? or don't want to work?

Kelonguni

19-10-16, 20:13

What other reason can one find for unable to work? refuse to work? or don't want to work?

How about mismatch of skills with targeted employment? Maybe not permanent inability to work but 1 or 2 year unemployed window?

minority

20-10-16, 12:34

How about mismatch of skills with targeted employment? Maybe not permanent inability to work but 1 or 2 year unemployed window?

Can take up any job if one is still able. Skill mismatch can drive uber? can pick up skills while in between jobs? . if its disabled can still requests CFP to release fund appealing.

cbsh38584

25-10-16, 08:42

Everyone here knows SG has the highest car prices in the world but it is strange that we still see car ownership on a rising trend.

Do you really know how much the total cost of a car comes up to for 10 years ? Some analyst say 250k for owning a "BIG TOY" in SG for 10 yrs.

Estimation $200,000 for 10 yrs for owning 1.5cc Toyota
==========================================
TOYOTA - Vios "G" 1.5 - Sedan Auto = $ 108,888

Breakdown of Car Cost
1.Certificate of Entitlement (COE)
2.Total Car Loan Value
3.Road Tax
4.COE and PARF Rebate
5.Auto Insurance
6.ERP & parking Fee
7. Maintenance.
8. Fuel Charge

Car Price: $108 ,888
•50% down payment: $54,444. Bal 50% take car loan. $54,444
•Car loan over 5 years at 2.8% interest rate : $62,066
Total interest paid for 5 yrs = $ 7622
Monthly installment = $1034

Total actual Price: $54,444 + $62,0666 = $116,510

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Road Tax - $618 per year
•Road tax over 10-year period = $7420

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Car insurance - Depending on your NCB + type of coverage
It kena accident due to your fault. Gone case. Premium will shoot up
by 20% to 50%.

Estimation = $1300/ yr or $13,000 for ten year

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fuel charge
If you like to go M'sia or very often jalan jalan on local road. It will be more.

estimation $300/mth or $3600/yr for local drive.
Total 10 yrs = $36,000 (conservative figure)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ERP & parking charge + HDB season carpark
$200/mth or $2400/yr
Total 10 yrs = $24,000 (conservative figure).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Car maintenance -60km FOC servicing which estimate about 3 yrs

Estimation maintenance cost for 10 yrs = $8,000.
If Kena accident due to your fault & type of insurance coverage you buy, it will be cost 2-5 times more depending on the seriousness of the damage.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PARF Rebate - Scrap value at the end of 10 yrs.
ARF for Vios "G" 1.5 - Sedan Auto = $12,234
•PARF Rebate at end of 10 years = $6117 scrap value

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost of owning a car for 10 years =
$116,510 (car price) + $7,420 (road Tax) + $13,000 (Insurance) + $36,000 (fuel) + $24,000 (ERP/Parking) + $8000 (maint) - $6177 = $198,753

My goodness. $200k for owning just a 1.5cc Toyota car driving for 10 yrs on the road.. The price of a 3rm HDB BTO flat which has 99 lease & can generate
income after fufill the govt HDB occupancy rule ( 5yrs).

1st priority is your HDB loan + your family insurance + children education & most importantly planning for your future retirement when you are young (< age 30).
If 200k will to put into your homemarker wife' CPF or children's CPF etc through monthly contribution. It will grow est from 200k to 260-280k in 10 yrs time.

Do you think it is worth if you are not a high income earner or not in the sale line etc ?

Kelonguni

25-10-16, 10:47

Thanks. Wise advice!

When I bought my first car some 8 years ago, it was half a year after my first child was born. A bread and butter car costed about 50+K, and petrol was something like $1.50 per liter. After including all the costs, my monthly out of pocket was just under $1,000. And I ran some sidelines as well made possible with the car ownership to defray this $1,000.

This expenditure is used to offset my transport expenses, my wife transport expenses as well as my children's transport expenses, and occasionally, my relatives' expenses. I was able to fully justify the cost of the car.

As of now, the accounting does not work out that well anymore as private transport involving a new car work out to be towards 1,800 instead. The only possibility to maintain the old expense amount is to renew car COE,

minority

26-10-16, 20:33

go car lite lor. singapore so small no need car. especially now adays choice. Uber, grab, conventional taxi , bus, mrt. why waste $ on car

Kelonguni

27-10-16, 00:28

go car lite lor. singapore so small no need car. especially now adays choice. Uber, grab, conventional taxi , bus, mrt. why waste $ on car

If fully use public transport including private hire for a family of four (two schoolgoing children).

Bus and MRT fares (adult): $200
Bus and MRT fares (children): $100
All kinds of taxi: $300

If 1 car can replace all these with top up of $400 more, quite worth it with the time savings and comfort, $100 per person. Sometimes that 1 emergency a month is worth more than $400. But if $1,000 more then quite expensive decision...

cbsh38584

30-10-16, 09:15

If you are a reasonable high income earner (>5k) with a stable job in your late 20s or early 30s. You do not need your CPF OA for your housing as you have enough liquid cash or you are still not married etc. Why not consider transfer your CPF 0A (2.5%) to CPF SA (4%) before it hit the full retirement sum (yr 2016 FRS=161k ). Do it as young as possible. Once the FRS ( Yr 2016 is 161k) is hit. You are not allowed to internal transfer from CPF-OA (2.5%) to CPF SA(4%).

Take note that your CPF OA will grow again if you continue to work. Your CPF OA will grow very fast again due to larger % contribution (40%-55%) as compare to
CPF SA (est 18%-21%) depending on your age.

Assume at age 31 , you have
CPF OA = 121k
CPF SA = 30k

After Transfering CPF OA to CPF SA
-------------------------------------------------
CPF OA = 21k
CPF SA = 130k

By transfering 100k from your CPF OA (2.5%) to CPF SA (4%) to earn the extra 1.5% .U will earn Extra 56k interest which is compounded for 30 yrs..
Extra $56k you get by doing nothing.

Turning 55 - the best is yet to be - GOH ENG YEOW (Senior correspondent for The sunday times)
===========================================================================
After setting aside $161,000 (Full retirement sum - FRS) in the newly created CPF Retirement Account,he still have some funds left in both my CPF Ordinary and Special accounts. He wrote a cheque to put another $80,500 into the CPF Retirement Account to top it up to the so-called Enhanced Retirement Sum limit of $241,500 (ERS).

=================================================================================================================================
This is a many example cases where S'porean did bother to manage their CPF acct when they are age <35 or they are not well inform on transfering their CPF OA (2.5%) to CPF SA.(4%). He still got excess in his CPF OA & CPF SA after set the FRS of 161k.

There is no need for him to come out CASH $80.5k if he well aware & plan ahead transfering his CPF-OA to CPF-SA when he is <age 35. Now 20 over years later, he starts to realise CPF is actual a good scheme for retirement planning. But he knows quite late

If he is <age 35, what he needs is a computer, keyboard, mouse & his fingers. Go to CPF online & transfer his CPF-OA to CPF SA. A 5 min job. The snowball compounded
rate return will enable his CPF SA to grow to $241k without topping cash $80.5k.

To earn & save the $80.5k is not a easy task. It require alot of physical sweat , mental stress etc for 2-4 yrs to save $80.5k. So if you are a high income earner at young age.
Sit down & think & plan how you can manage your CPF well. If you plan well when you are young, you should able to meet the ERS (high payout) without coming cash to top up.

FYI , the full retirement sum (FRS) will increase from $161k to $181k by yr 2020.
the enchanced retirement sum (ERS - high payout @age 65) will increase from $241k to 271k by yr 2020.