Citibank is unilaterally rasing the spread on its existing Sibor loan customers ! [Archive] - Condo Forum Singapore Property Review Mortgage Loan Buy Rent Sell Real Estate

amk

05-03-15, 17:12

https://www.citibank.com.sg/global_docs/microsite/ln/hl/ipa/hms_tnc.pdf
Citibank's terms and conditions
Clause:
6.14 We may from time to time review, alter and/or cancel the Credit Facilities and/or the Adjustment
after giving reasonable notice to you.

My intepretation: It is catchall for the bank to do anything.

I believe other banks should also have the same catchall clause to protect their backsides. (i didnt check the other banks though).

Remember GS recalling loan facility in penny stock sage? GS only gave 90 minutes. to GS, 90 minutes is a reasonable notice :)

:) I like your language. Of course, GS, what do you expect.

Back to loans, yes, all banks' loan T&C will have catchall terms to protect them. The contract is bullet proof.

For example Citi's T&C in your link, no need to look far, read the very 1st line, it says:

1 Interest
1.1 We may vary the interest rate(s) from time to time at our discretion after giving reasonable notice to you.

First line already cover Citi totally for any interest rate revisions. what sibor, what spread, what fixed rate. :)

I feel bad for my friend. I was the one who recommended that package to him. As far as I know, all these years, no other bank has ever invoked that term to change a promised spread/rate just like that. Well done Citibank ! :(

hopeful

05-03-15, 17:22

..As far as I know, all these years, no other bank has ever invoked that term to change a promised spread/rate just like that. Well done Citibank ! :(

luckily for non-citibank mortgagees, banks are not like petrol stations...........yet :)

2824

05-03-15, 18:50

Maybe can report to case like what they did to the petrol stations.
Even if cannot do anything the publicity generated will be enough.

Sandiwara

05-03-15, 18:54

To protect us just spread the word as much as possible. As long as we are spreading the true. Sure after that people will think first before choosing Citibank.

flagship74

05-03-15, 18:56

Relax relax..interest rate gonna to fall..

amk

05-03-15, 19:21

Maybe can report to case like what they did to the petrol stations.
Even if cannot do anything the publicity generated will be enough.

Yes I told him the same, plus also asked him to complain to MAS and contact straits times too. I strongly feel this thing needs to go public to get MAS's serious attention. At the very least, every one needs to be educated that ALL mortgage rate promised can be "revised" at will, and there are banks that actually are doing that. Citi should be punished with a public outcry. I wonder why Citi made such a decision. How much profit can it make from this ? Miserably small for a bank. And Citi is totally not afraid of the public outcry, that people will not trust its mortgage offering any more ? Or Citi is thinking ppl are ignorant and will forget what it did ?

teddybear

05-03-15, 19:38

Does Singapore's LEMON LAW and ANTI-COMPETITION LAW apply to all these massive terms and conditions unilaterally set by banks that are all the same?
They should, because it is an obvious case of manipulation and amounting to cheap their clients?

DBS
http://www.dbs.com.sg/iwov-resources/pdf/loan/tnc_mortgageloan.pdf

13 Right of Review
13.1 We shall, at our absolute discretion, be entitled to review the Facility at any time and from time to time and to decide whether:
13.1.1 the Facility shall be cancelled, reduced or repaid; or
13.1.2 any terms relating to the Facility shall be varied in any way,
and such cancellation, reduction, repayment or variation shall be effective at the time that we issue a notice to you.

So in what way, is the statement "A bank rescinding its commercial terms ? Can it even do that ?" true?

teddybear

05-03-15, 19:43

I believe what CITI did is challengeable, given that in black and white in the main housing loan contract and letter, they would have stated the loan is "SIBOR + x.x% fixed spread..." and all other terms and conditions they invoke to change the fixed spread are hidden in that T&Cs and which are not highlighted to their clients! (just that ordinary people individually or in a small group do not have the "muscle" to do!!!!!!!!)

Should consult Shanmugam, and he will find some laws hidden in the law book to deal with CITI? :encouragement:

May be can invoke LEMON law, or ANTI-COMPETITIVE law to deal with CITI or something else to deal with CITI?
- The main reason: MAIN MORTGAGE AGREEMENT LETTER states "...SIBOR + x.x% fixed spread...".
- CITI invoked some clause hidden in their massive T&Cs to change the fixed spread, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, this clause is NOT STATED IN THE MAIN MORTGAGE AGREEMENT LETTER and IT CONTRADICTS MAIN MORTGAGE AGREEMENT LETTER! As such, the clauses in T&Cs can be invalidated and amount to cheating of their clients by imposing such UNFAIR clauses in T&Cs that CONTRADICTS MAIN MORTGAGE AGREEMENT LETTER?

:) I like your language. Of course, GS, what do you expect.

Back to loans, yes, all banks' loan T&C will have catchall terms to protect them. The contract is bullet proof.

For example Citi's T&C in your link, no need to look far, read the very 1st line, it says:

1 Interest
1.1 We may vary the interest rate(s) from time to time at our discretion after giving reasonable notice to you.

First line already cover Citi totally for any interest rate revisions. what sibor, what spread, what fixed rate. :)

I feel bad for my friend. I was the one who recommended that package to him. As far as I know, all these years, no other bank has ever invoked that term to change a promised spread/rate just like that. Well done Citibank ! :(

Ibuyistay

05-03-15, 19:57

Yes I told him the same, plus also asked him to complain to MAS and contact straits times too. I strongly feel this thing needs to go public to get MAS's serious attention. At the very least, every one needs to be educated that ALL mortgage rate promised can be "revised" at will, and there are banks that actually are doing that. Citi should be punished with a public outcry. I wonder why Citi made such a decision. How much profit can it make from this ? Miserably small for a bank. And Citi is totally not afraid of the public outcry, that people will not trust its mortgage offering any more ? Or Citi is thinking ppl are ignorant and will forget what it did ?

praise

amk

05-03-15, 20:40

Does Singapore's LEMON LAW and ANTI-COMPETITION LAW apply to all these massive terms and conditions unilaterally set by banks that are all the same?
They should, because it is an obvious case of manipulation and amounting to cheap their clients?

Haiz, we consumers can't fight it unless the press is involved and MAS is paying attention. To me, this is a clear unfair contract term which should be invalid by default. Just msged him. He managed to talk to some reporters, hope he can convince the reporter to print this story. He said MAS no response.

teddybear

05-03-15, 20:49

It would help if he get a letter in black and white from CITI that they are unilaterally changing the "fixed spread" despite what is stated in the mortgage loan letter.

Otherwise later CITI can clarify to reporters and just say "administrative mistake" and they had sent the "wrong letter" to him? :banghead:
"administrative mistake" becomes such a good LAME excuse these days, like the lawyer over-billed the doctor, just give excuse "administrative mistake", lo and behold, no penalty, no fault of them! :tsk-tsk:

Haiz, we consumers can't fight it unless the press is involved and MAS is paying attention. To me, this is a clear unfair contract term which should be invalid by default. Just msged him. He managed to talk to some reporters, hope he can convince the reporter to print this story. He said MAS no response.

hopeful

05-03-15, 21:04

Whatever happens to sanctity of contract?

proud owner

05-03-15, 21:22

i doubt very much we have a case

during the lehman crisis, when USD funding rates shot thru the roof.

Libor was fixed say at 2 pct for 12 mth, the actual mkt was trading at 2.75 to 3.25 pct.

Corporate customers pulled out their credit facilities letter and drew down max amt of 12mth at Libor plus, say 0.5pct.
Which means they are getting their funds cheaper than the actual mkt.

banks were scrambling to cover the funds in the mkt and lost tonnes of money...

before long, the banks started to change the facility agreement, new and existing ones, to Cost of funds + 0.5 pct...

There was nothing the customers could do... neither did the central banks did anything...

the corporate customers LL had to accept it ...

hopeful

05-03-15, 21:45

Some here are congratulating themselves on getting a good deal from citibank. "I am a big fxxking hero, get 1M sibor + 0.65".
Yet when terms change, now they are crying victimhood here? Wahbiang.

When u apply for loan, u r given letter of offer valid for some time, u can compare with other competing letter of offer from other banks. Study the t&c
And nobody ever forced u to accept the letter of offer. The contract is signed on willing party basis is it not?

You signed it, u owned it.

whatever happened to sanctity of contract?
(Even though the terms are stacked heavily in favor of banks, a contract still must be honored)

hopeful

05-03-15, 21:56

...As far as I know, all these years, no other bank has ever invoked that term to change a promised spread/rate just like that. Well done Citibank ! :(

When rates go negative, cimb sent a letter stating there would be a floor on rates.
so cimb already used the clause to change the mortgage contract.

hopeful

06-03-15, 09:08

amk, just a thought:
can your friend switch to other banks?
or will he fail the TDSR test?

amk

06-03-15, 09:30

When rates go negative, cimb sent a letter stating there would be a floor on rates.
so cimb already used the clause to change the mortgage contract.

yes true, I forgot about the negative rate case. for that one, consumers dun feel that unfair as it is indeed extraordinary.
nobody is doubting the legality of the move. As I said, contract is bullet proof. however legality is one thing, unfair term is another. I feel the public should be at least made known there is a bank doing this. and Citi should be at least reprimanded by MAS for invoking that kind of term liberally. Citi should be shamed publicly, pretty much the same as GS giving ppl 90mins "reasonable time" so every one knows what kind of bank GS is. SG is too small. I am sure in Europe or US the bank can be sued.

Case in mind, the IB CHF story. You know that right ? IB can requote the price after the contract was done because again it is in his T&C. Ppl are being asked to pay hundreds of thousands, for Singapore client. However, in Germany, IB absorbed the loss and did not ask the client to pay, because in Germany there is this unfair contract terms clause, IB knew it would be challenged. Only in SG, there seems to be little protection.

proud owner: I guess you know for corporate loans, say APMLA format, the complete doc is something like 70-100 pages, with "Increase of Cost" prominently displayed and explicitly spelt out as a valid reason to revise the rate, in the same font, size as in any other terms, there is no separate booklet "T&C" separately, so it is more "fair" than consumer loan T&C where "I can do whatever I want" is a "hidden" clause in small print. In addition, corporates have lawyers vetting through contracts and they are not afraid of suing the bank for contract discrepancy, whereas consumer is always not at a equal position as a bank in terms of resources. (This is why US has class action legal recourse for consumers.) Whether or not he has a case, depends entirely on whether MAS wants to make it a case.

amk

06-03-15, 09:36

amk, just a thought:
can your friend switch to other banks?
or will he fail the TDSR test?

I dun know if he will pass the TDSR. But I know he has a good job, and this is his only house.

hopeful

06-03-15, 11:19

......
Case in mind, the IB CHF story. You know that right ? IB can requote the price after the contract was done because again it is in his T&C. Ppl are being asked to pay hundreds of thousands, for Singapore client. However, in Germany, IB absorbed the loss and did not ask the client to pay, because in Germany there is this unfair contract terms clause, IB knew it would be challenged. Only in SG, there seems to be little protection.

proud owner: I guess you know for corporate loans, say APMLA format, the complete doc is something like 70-100 pages, with "Increase of Cost" prominently displayed and explicitly spelt out as a valid reason to revise the rate, in the same font, size as in any other terms, there is no separate booklet "T&C" separately, so it is more "fair" than consumer loan T&C where "I can do whatever I want" is a "hidden" clause in small print. In addition, corporates have lawyers vetting through contracts and they are not afraid of suing the bank for contract discrepancy, whereas consumer is always not at a equal position as a bank in terms of resources. (This is why US has class action legal recourse for consumers.) Whether or not he has a case, depends entirely on whether MAS wants to make it a case.

We both know big fish eat small fish, i accept it, but my guess is all know it, but most dont really accept it

This (para-phrased) message by an unknown is always at the back of my mind:
"how long does it take for you to accumulate, $200k, 300k. To the majority of you, to accumulate that amount take a few years of your life, your hard work, your blood and your sweat.
Yet I would confidently say most of you would not spend the few hours, not to mention days, to look through the contracts, to look at the terms and conditions, to ask around, to ask for advice and opinion. Or if you asked around, you asked your friends and relatives, who are in no way qualified to give you any sort of advice.
This is not called doing your homework, you are only fooling yourself, so that if the deal turns sour, you can comfort yourself saying you have done your homework, you have done your due diligence.

Remember, it takes a few years to accumulate that amount, and you spend only a few hours to gamble it away. Most here would denied they gambled, instead calling it an investment, but i would called it gambling."

I cannot put the it as well as the original speaker, but i hope forummers here get the message.

amk

06-03-15, 11:55

It would help if he get a letter in black and white from CITI that they are unilaterally changing the "fixed spread" despite what is stated in the mortgage loan letter.

Citi sent him a letter telling him the spread is changed. No, not admin mistake. Legally Citi is covered.

hopeful: hmmm.. slightly different here. you do not have a choice here, all banks have catchall clause. So the only mistake he made is trusting Citi to be an ethical bank. Again, you may say he made a mistake: banks are not to be trusted, case in point: GS 90mins "reasonable" time. Well, before this we dun know, now we do, at least Citi is not to be trusted. So ppl should place yet another factor on the trustworthiness of the bank when considering loan packages. Lowest rate is not always the best deal: will the bank honor it ? (Hey that's a line for all the mortgage broker here, another way to sell you deal : "my package may not be the best, but my bank will honour it not like others" :) )

bargain hunter

06-03-15, 15:52

we can do our small part and punish citi by not dealing with them, not only for mortgages but for everything else. :)

hopeful

06-03-15, 16:13

haha, people are overrated. given all the negative publicitys about GS, i wondered why they are still in business. Must be all the big G fearing people donating their money to GS for doing big G's work :)

the other competing mortgage broker would say that:
<start>
The other mortgage broker who say their bank will honour their deal, you ask him if he can guarantee it. He say he cannot guarantee. You ask him to ask the bank to remove the clause, he say the bank will not. What does this tell you about the guy and the bank?

(now outright lies and BS) I tell you a secret, MAS allow a bank to change mortgage terms once a year only, now citibank already use their card so early this year, so rest of the year is safe. Only next year can change terms again. This year cannot anymore. Chenghu very good, take care of people.
Other banks have not changed their terms, very hui hiam hor, they can still raise their spread later this year. Like petrol stations le, one company raise price, all the rest follow. Banks also same one. one bank increase spread, others double confirmed follow.

I guarantee this mortgage is cheapest now, you enjoy the savings now. if you choose other mortgage, you sure guarantee lose money. why pay more if you can pay less ?
You choose the other fellow's package, now you pay more, later even pay much more when the bank increase the spread. you rugi twice. instead of donate money to bank, why not donate to charity.

if your mortgage becomes more expensive, just refinance to another bank, no problem becoz if you pass TDSR/MSR of one bank, it means you pass TDSR/MSR of all the other banks. I will help you to refinance, no worries
<end>

But i like citibank's game plan.
If '1m sibor + 0.85%' is still among the lowest on the market presently, i doubt many people would shift to other banks despite being pissed off. at the end of the day, it is still all about the dollars and cents.

I would think that with the slowing down in property transactions, it would be time for the banks to start their harvest, by raising the rates and increasing the spreads. TDSR/MSR would prevent those caught by it from hopping around so each bank would have their own captive pool. Those that can still hop around, lets share the bounty, this month you offered the lowest rate, next month i offered the lowest rate.
beats me why they are not doing that, perhaps they are waiting to catch more stragglers.

amk

06-03-15, 19:16

hahaha hopeful u r one funny guy :)
But yes ur observation is true.
Well, as some judge used to say , ( not exact words), " justice not only needs to be done, it needs to be perceived to be done". Whether ppl forget about citi's stunt or not, justice needs to be perceived to be done. At the minimum this needs to go to press and get some MAS attention/statement. We can be cynical, but we can also do our part. Dun have to do like bargain hunter suggested, just helping to create the awareness will do.

bargain hunter

06-03-15, 19:47

hey, i also help spread the word liao leh.

but i m wary of what citibank may do to my non ppty loans too. better start to cut exposure to them. :)

hahaha hopeful u r one funny guy :)
But yes ur observation is true.
Well, as some judge used to say , ( not exact words), " justice not only needs to be done, it needs to be perceived to be done". Whether ppl forget about citi's stunt or not, justice needs to be perceived to be done. At the minimum this needs to go to press and get some MAS attention/statement. We can be cynical, but we can also do our part. Dun have to do like bargain hunter suggested, just helping to create the awareness will do.

teddybear

06-03-15, 21:55

If they can do such unfair unilateral action for property loan, then they could do for any other loan or deal with them too right? BEWARE! :scared-3:
Best to go to the newspapers!
Then seek MAS comments and actions!
Also seek CASE actions!
Also spread the news on internet all over the WORLD! (CITI do business everywhere around the WORLD!)

hey, i also help spread the word liao leh.

but i m wary of what citibank may do to my non ppty loans too. better start to cut exposure to them. :)

amk

07-03-15, 09:37

hey, i also help spread the word liao leh.

but i m wary of what citibank may do to my non ppty loans too. better start to cut exposure to them. :)

Thx thx ! :)

In fact u r right on being cautious on citi exposure. The only reason citi doing this must have been bottom line. If it has to do this, ( how much can it earn for 20 bps ?? Plus ppl can move out ), it has to mean its loan book is in a serious trouble, and/or some new management needs some numbers to show off.

Teddy: my friend told me he has contacted all that (MAS, case, press). Hopefully it can get the attention.

Allthepies

07-03-15, 20:18

amk

08-03-15, 10:02

If I understand law correctly, the bank can put any clause they want in the contract. However the terms and conditions must be reasonable or it will not stand even though you have signed the contract.

Can you elaborate a bit more ? From the earlier T&C link, you can see clearly the bank says

"1.1 we can revise the rate from time to time"

"16 we can revise, change, terminate ... etc any time at bank's absolute discretion ..."

These are clearly unreasonable terms. Do you believe these terms can be challenged ?

Cyberknight

08-03-15, 15:00

I have a note to share.

Where do the rich, poor and every other Singaporeans or working foreigners put their SGD deposits in?

It wil always be in e local banks DBS , OCBC, UOB ...

Which means no matter how SIBOR moves, they will still have sufficient sGD to support the property loan books,

Ie, they will always think twice trying to adjust the terms...

Citi, SCB, cimb may not have that flexibility cos they borrow from the local banks

But if you borrow USD from citi , that is another discussion...

For me , I go with local banks . They got more to lose adjusting e rates like what you say in e Citi case from a publicity perspective. Rem UOB 50 yr loans.. Kena left right centre.......

All said, TDSR is meant to protect us from over leveraging. . . . .

I really do not want the bank to own my property after me trying to buy it in the first place. Low interest rate should be e exception rather than e norm. And we have been in an exceptional era for a while.

teddybear

09-03-15, 21:32

More comprehensive consumer protection law with teeth is needed here!
Nevertheless, there should be bits and pieces of laws here and there that the powerful can still pick up to challenge the banks (BUT not the laymen) right?

A very good example is charging those legal debt collectors with "illegal gathering"! First time I heard of, ha ha ha!

Another example, "illegal protest" at Speakers' corner!

So for CITI case, could it be "unfair and misleading contract"?

TITLE: Plans in the pipeline to improve consumer protection: MTI

POSTED: 09 Mar 2015 14:13
URL: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/plans-in-the-pipeline-to/1703544.html

Promoting fair trading and consumer protection is a collective effort by the government, CASE and the industry, says the Minister of State for Trade and Industry Teo Ser Luck.

SINGAPORE: Promoting fair trading and consumer protection is a collective effort by the Government, the Consumer Association of Singapore (CASE) and the industry, said of State for Trade and Industry Teo Ser Luck in Parliament on Monday (Mar 9), during the Committee of Supply debate.

He added that on a broader front, the Ministry of Trade and Industry (MTI) is "working closely" with CASE to step up “broader consumer education efforts” through advertisements, talks and printed collaterals. There will also be a greater effort placed on improving awareness among vulnerable groups such as the elderly, which CASE says tend to have a higher level of complaints.

CASE and Singapore Tourism Board (STB) have also stepped up cooperation with relevant malls to improve information available to the public on retailers who receive high numbers of customer complaints, he said.

“For example, they have worked with Sim Lim Square’s Management Council to produce consumer alerts and advisory posters in English and Chinese. I understand that they are now placed at all the entrances, lift lobbies and even within the lifts of the mall.”

STB is also working with the Sim Lim Management Council to prepare public announcements on consumer advice in the four major languages, which will be “played throughout the operating hours of the mall”, said Mr Teo.

The minister added that Sim Lim Square is working to enhance its STARetailer programme, and the Management Council is working with Nanyang Polytechnic's Singapore Institute of Retail Studies to develop a course to enhance the service competencies of Sim Lim retailers, with assistance from SPRING.

NOT POSSIBLE FOR CPFTA TO DEAL WITH ALL ISSUES: TEO SER LUCK

Additionally, Mr Teo said the Consumer Protection Fair Trading Act (CPFTA) should focus on promoting fair trading, and that it was not possible for it to be an “omnibus” legislation that deals with all issues. Serious cases that involve dishonesty and fraud will be investigated by the police, he added.

“As we recently shared with the House on Jan 19, MTI will strengthen measures to enable quicker and more effective action to deter unfair trading practices under the CPFTA. The enhanced measures will prevent errant retailers from flouting the provisions and sidestepping restrictions imposed by the Courts, such as the setting up of new companies under a different name.”

"CPFTA cannot be a 'one-leg kick' and encompass everything because it will be very messy. What we don't want to do is discourage retailers from doing their business, especially the good retailers. We know that errant retailers are in the minority, we just need to catch them. This is under review and we have until mid-June to put it through, make the recommendations and make the public announcement."

MTI is currently studying the best practices, legislative and penalty frameworks of other countries - particularly Hong Kong and Australia - and is also considering appointing an agency to undertake the investigation and enforcement functions, he said.

hopeful

12-03-15, 11:53

amk, any updates from your friend?
no news about this case in the net for past few days.

teddybear

12-03-15, 13:47

Yah loh, so long still new news on newspapers? they don't want to report on such BIG NEWS?

amk, any updates from your friend?
no news about this case in the net for past few days.

amk

13-03-15, 10:09

He told me he is in touch with a Straits Times reporter who is "researching" this case. Also, MAS replied to him saying it is instructing Citi to officially respond to him. However according to him, MAS said it had no power to do anything and told him to go FIDRec if he is not satisfied with Citi's response/explanation.

I personally found it unacceptable the authority did not take the stand of helping consumers to fight the bank. Although I am not surprised: the IB CHF case, MAS also said cannot do anything; even in Lehman note case, DBS customer in HK got better compensated than DBS customer in Singapore because the regulator in HK forced all the banks to compensate.

teddybear

13-03-15, 13:03

So can we say MAS chief Tharman not doing a good job to protect consumers like us? :simmering:

This is especially when Singapore Media have been singing praises about how good Singapore government is compared to HK yet HK consumers are better protected by their Government than Singapore! :suspicion:

He told me he is in touch with a Straits Times reporter who is "researching" this case. Also, MAS replied to him saying it is instructing Citi to officially respond to him. However according to him, MAS said it had no power to do anything and told him to go FIDRec if he is not satisfied with Citi's response/explanation.

I personally found it unacceptable the authority did not take the stand of helping consumers to fight the bank. Although I am not surprised: the IB CHF case, MAS also said cannot do anything; even in Lehman note case, DBS customer in HK got better compensated than DBS customer in Singapore because the regulator in HK forced all the banks to compensate.

amk

13-03-15, 15:16

So can we say MAS chief Tharman not doing a good job to protect consumers like us? :simmering:

... kind of true. HKMA seems to have more teeth dealing with banks than MAS. Just a while ago, HSBC SG allowed unlicensed representatives to sell investment products to consumers, for that MAS just gave a "reprimand" :

http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/banking-finance/mas-reprimands-hsbc-singapore-for-breach-of-financial-advisers-act

now for this loan story, this is what the gov said a loan should be ,(of which ABS even has a Code of Consumer Banking Practice based on) :

http://www.moneysense.gov.sg/~/media/Moneysense/Guides%20and%20Articles/Guides/Home%20Loans_English.pdf

in it, if you look at example 2b, it clearly says "discounts and premiums typically CANNOT be changed". (here the "discount"/"premium" refers to the spread over sibor). Only the "reference rate" can be changed.

Can Citi blatantly ignore this Code of Practice, and get away with it ?

sabian

13-03-15, 16:06

agentg

16-03-15, 15:45

Ok, came out in mypaper: http://mypaper.sg/chinese-news/bu-fen-yin-xing-diao-gao-fu-dong-li-lu-pei-tao-xi-chai-20150316

部分银行调高浮动利率配套息差
胡渊文

随着本地基准利率上扬，有银行调整了浮动利率配套的息差（spread）。

花旗银行日前通知现有客户，他们的房屋贷款SIBOR配套息差调高到0.85％（SIBOR+0.85％），据了解，一些客户原本的息差是0.70％（SIBOR+0.70％）。

SIBOR是新元拆息率，指的是银行同业之间的借贷率。

银行贷款的条款中允许银行调整利率，但几家受访的银行均表示，还未调整过SIBOR配套的息差。

星展银行和渣打银行表示至今没有调整过。据悉，大华银行也从未调整过。

花旗银行表示，上述的调整只有一小部分客户受到影响，银行是基于和客户的整体关系来进行评估，并给予客户足够的通知期。

一名业内人士说，花旗银行调整息差，可能是反映了银行的商业成本。她说，新元银行同业拆息率是银行之间借贷的成本，是透明的，如果银行要赚取更多收入，只能调整息差。

另一名银行业人士说，银行有权这么做，但通常不会调整现有客户的息差。

本地经济师宋生文说，银行这么做可能是因为目前的利率环境特殊，要考虑到接下来更大的波动性。

他说，本地的基准利率应该是和美国利率挂钩，但由于担心美国加息以及其他地区的经济情况，本地的利率率先走高了。

agentg

16-03-15, 15:48

Google Translate:

With the local benchmark interest rate rise, banks adjust the floating rate matching spreads (spread).

Citibank recently notify existing customers, supporting their mortgage SIBOR spreads increase to 0.85% (SIBOR + 0.85%), it is understood that some customers had interest margin is 0.70% (SIBOR + 0.70%).

SIBOR is SGD interbank rate refers to the borrowing rate between the interbank.

In terms of bank loans allow banks to adjust interest rates, but several banks surveyed said yet adjusted spreads SIBOR supporting.

DBS Bank and Standard Chartered Bank said that has not been adjusted. It is reported that UOB has never been adjusted.

Citibank, said the adjustment is only a small part of the affected customers, the banks and the overall relationship is based on the customer to evaluate and give customers adequate notice period.

An industry source said, Citibank adjust spreads, probably reflecting the bank's cost of doing business. She said SGD interbank interest rate is the cost of borrowing between banks is transparent, if the banks want to earn more income, only adjust interest rate differential.

Another banking source said, banks have the right to do so, but usually do not adjust existing customer spreads.

Local economist Songsheng Wen said the bank may do so because of the current interest rate environment, special consideration to the next greater volatility.

He said the local benchmark interest rate and US interest rates should be linked, but the fear of the US economy to raise interest rates as well as other areas of local interest rates will move higher.

teddybear

16-03-15, 18:31

Why CASE chasing after those small case like "婚宴取消费无商量余地　消协：酒店业者对消费者不公平"?

Shouldn't CASE come out tell all the banks that they all have similar clauses that they can unilaterally change the spread as "对消费者不公平"?!!!!!!!!!
The SIBOR spread issue then is a big case because it affects almost 90% of all Singaporean property owners in Singapore!

Citibank cannot honour their deal written in the main contract such as "SIBOR + 0.70%"? Nothing is written in the main contract saying they can change the figure "0.70%" right? Is Citibank going back on its contract and NOT HONOURING it by using those unfair terms written in their so-called T&Cs in small words and hence constitute attempt to cheat consumers while writing terms like "SIBOR + 0.70%" in main contract? If they are honorable, they should write "SIBOR + 0.70% subject to CITI adjustment"! Can CASE please make their stand loud and clear?

The banking source is telling us a joke like: "Another banking source said, banks have the right to do so, but usually do not adjust existing customer spreads."
Banks have the right to do so to adjust the spread figure? usually do not? The way they are telling us is like Banks are kind and charitable charitable organizations to their customers? Citibank has the right to adjust the spread to any figure? :asshole:

And worst of all, NO SOUND from MAS?
Again, we can't rely on MAS to protect SG consumers just like Lehman note case when DBS HK customers are protected by HK MAS while SG MAS could not protect Singaporeans who are DBS SG customers? :simmering:

Google Translate:

With the local benchmark interest rate rise, banks adjust the floating rate matching spreads (spread).

Citibank recently notify existing customers, supporting their mortgage SIBOR spreads increase to 0.85% (SIBOR + 0.85%), it is understood that some customers had interest margin is 0.70% (SIBOR + 0.70%).

SIBOR is SGD interbank rate refers to the borrowing rate between the interbank.

In terms of bank loans allow banks to adjust interest rates, but several banks surveyed said yet adjusted spreads SIBOR supporting.

DBS Bank and Standard Chartered Bank said that has not been adjusted. It is reported that UOB has never been adjusted.

Citibank, said the adjustment is only a small part of the affected customers, the banks and the overall relationship is based on the customer to evaluate and give customers adequate notice period.

An industry source said, Citibank adjust spreads, probably reflecting the bank's cost of doing business. She said SGD interbank interest rate is the cost of borrowing between banks is transparent, if the banks want to earn more income, only adjust interest rate differential.

Another banking source said, banks have the right to do so, but usually do not adjust existing customer spreads.

Local economist Songsheng Wen said the bank may do so because of the current interest rate environment, special consideration to the next greater volatility.

He said the local benchmark interest rate and US interest rates should be linked, but the fear of the US economy to raise interest rates as well as other areas of local interest rates will move higher.

2015年03月16日
婚宴取消费无商量余地　消协：酒店业者对消费者不公平
李蕙心　

在酒店摆喜酒却因故取消，情侣须要付至少25％的取消费用，有的酒店即使在婚宴前8个月内接到通知，也要向情侣收取全额婚宴费用。

　　新加坡消费者协会认为，酒店没有给予消费者商量的余地，对消费者不公平，并呼吁酒店业者调整相关条款。

　　消协在过去4年接到23起关于酒店婚宴取消费用过高的投诉。一些投诉者指称，酒店收取百分百的婚宴费不合理。有人则投诉，有其他情侣接手婚宴配套，但酒店拒绝退还订金。

　　大约九成的投诉获得解决，多数人成功索回部分退款或降低费用。

　　一名不愿具名的投诉者因为个人原因无奈取消婚宴，不仅3000元的订金泡汤，酒店还要求她支付全数2万多元的婚宴配套。经过一番商讨，对方同意只收一半的价钱，但投诉者仍觉得代价太大。

　　消协较早前向本地100家酒店发出调查问卷，希望了解各大酒店的取消费细节，但只有18家回复。

　　消协昨天公布调查结果，多数受访酒店表示不会退回订金，另外还会根据取消的原因，来决定是否会收取消费以及费用的额度。

　　一家酒店的条款显示，距离婚宴日期前的12个至16个月之间取消婚宴，取消费是配套价格的50％。若酒店在8个至12个月内接到通知，消费者须付75％。若是在8个月内，就必须交付全额收费。

　　如果男女任何一方或直系亲属过世，多数酒店将免去取消费，或只收取部分费用或允许延期。

近期内与业者商讨
消协拟制定取消费准则
消协会长林谋泉昨早在F1维修大楼举行的消协竞走活动受访时说，许多消费者在签约时都不想取消婚礼，也不注意取消费细节。酒店收取高额取消费并不合理。

　　“酒店可能觉得，消费者预定了酒店场地办婚宴，以致酒店得回拒其他打算在同一天摆喜酒的人。如果距婚宴日期还有很长的一段时间，难道酒店真的找不到其他客户代替？”

　　据知，本地人一般会在婚礼一年前预订婚宴配套，著名酒店更是抢手，往往备有等候名单。

　　担任竞走活动嘉宾的国会议长哈莉玛指出，酒店的取消费机制欠缺透明，对消费者也不公平。

　　她说：“消费者没有讨价还价的机会，如果他们很想在结婚旺季如12月办婚宴，他们必须答应酒店的条件，否则就得放弃预定场地。”

　　消协将在近期内同新加坡酒店协会商讨，制定一套取消费准则的可能性。

　　林谋泉呼吁酒店业者同消协合作，提供取消费细节。他也希望能与业者达成共识，如果酒店不合作并坚持收取不合理的费用，消协将考虑采取法律行动。

　　消协官方网站将在近期内发表受访酒店的取消费细节。

　　新加坡酒店协会发言人说，来不及在昨天截稿前回复。记者联系的数家酒店也以星期天不办公为由，无法回应。

amk

16-03-15, 22:08

Haiz this reporter is extremely useless. He failed to mention the most critical part : citi sold the mortgage as "throughout spread", and yet it changed it ! This report made it sound like bank adjusting spread is a normal business , and yes, as teddy put it, almost like bank adjusting spread is "normal", not adjusting is doing customer a favor ! It should have highlighted the fact that citi did not honour the term !

The most ridiculous part of this report is this : "as SIBOR is transparent fixing rate, bank cannot adjust this rate, so bank has to adjust the spread". SIBOR being transparent is the exact reason why customers take up SIBOR packages, so the bank CANNOT anyhow change its reference rates ! If a bank can change the rate no matter what, then it might as well dun sell any number, just simply say " the mortgage rate shall be whichever number we think reasonable". And see if citi can sell any mortgage with that !

I think CASE is not sufficient. It's the MAS that should step in. This is public interest. Citi cannot be allowed to set such precedent. No other bank has ever done this.

In fact it is also unfair to other banks. Citi effectively attract customers from other banks by, effectively cheating. Although I can imagine other banks will love to see this incident go unnoticed, so they can feel free to do the same next time.

teddybear

16-03-15, 23:36

Same view here.
If CITI can get away with this, we will soon see other banks following suit!
Most didn't for now because they know "it constitutes unfair" and "cheating" and dishonourable for invoking some T&Cs in small prints that contradicts what they agreed to in MAIN CONTRACT (in bigger fonts)! As far as I know, in all other well regulated and law-abiding countries, they have strong consumer protection to protect consumers against unfair and cheating practice such as this one, and hence the MAIN CONTRACT (in big fonts) is considered the main legal document, and companies (and banks etc) can embed all kinds of terms and conditions in their accompanying T&C document (usually very wordy and in smaller fonts) but as it is T&Cs, it means they cannot contradict the BIG FONTs in MAIN CONTRACT and these contradicting T&Cs cannot stand up to challenge!

Even the calculation of SGD SIBOR is already full of loopholes and easy to manipulate by the banks, and now CITI want to play cheat to invoke small font T&Cs and dishonour their MAIN CONTRACT agreed terms?

MAS still not doing anything?
Good, at least we know General Election is coming and we should know what to do!

Haiz this reporter is extremely useless. He failed to mention the most critical part : citi sold the mortgage as "throughout spread", and yet it changed it ! This report made it sound like bank adjusting spread is a normal business , and yes, as teddy put it, almost like bank adjusting spread is "normal", not adjusting is doing customer a favor ! It should have highlighted the fact that citi did not honour the term !

The most ridiculous part of this report is this : "as SIBOR is transparent fixing rate, bank cannot adjust this rate, so bank has to adjust the spread". SIBOR being transparent is the exact reason why customers take up SIBOR packages, so the bank CANNOT anyhow change its reference rates ! If a bank can change the rate no matter what, then it might as well dun sell any number, just simply say " the mortgage rate shall be whichever number we think reasonable". And see if citi can sell any mortgage with that !

I think CASE is not sufficient. It's the MAS that should step in. This is public interest. Citi cannot be allowed to set such precedent. No other bank has ever done this.

In fact it is also unfair to other banks. Citi effectively attract customers from other banks by, effectively cheating. Although I can imagine other banks will love to see this incident go unnoticed, so they can feel free to do the same next time.

hopeful

17-03-15, 14:22

Why should MAS be taking action? :beats-me-man:

teddybear

17-03-15, 14:43

You are asking a question similar to other people asking why MAS need to maintain a "Investor Alert List" right? :pig:

The case sounds like a case of dishonesty, dishonouring the main mortgage loan agreement that clearing states "SIBOR + 0.70%" and they unilaterally want to now charge their customers an interest rate of "SIBOR + 0.85%" right?

So we need MAS to clarify: Does Citibank has the right to unilaterally change the property loan interest rate charged from "SIBOR + 0.70%" (as stated in their agreed mortgage loan agreement") to "SIBOR + 0.85%" and in the process dishonouring the main contract agreed term? Remember, this case has been brought to their attention and they can't act blur as though they don't know right? :axekiller:

Why should MAS be taking action? :beats-me-man:

amk

17-03-15, 15:58

Why should MAS be taking action? :beats-me-man:

alamak MAS got to at least *pretend* to be "maintaining the integrity of financial system"

hopeful

17-03-15, 16:11

i think sanctity of the contract is of upmost importance, and that is maintaining the integrity of the financial system, hence the reason for MAS "inaction" in both minibonds and this citibank case. Both are made on willing buyer willing seller basis. No pressure sales tactic involved.

i am most interested in the sengkang columbarium case, given khaw explanation, how a commercial party run a non-commercial temple/columbarium etc

teddybear

17-03-15, 16:48

It appears that sanctity of the contract of utmost importance to you but not to Citibank since in the case we heard, Citibank has mortgage loan agreement that states that interest charged will be "SIBOR + 0.70%" but now Citibank is unilaterally changing to "SIBOR + 0.85%" right?

Also, willing buyer and willing seller inked contract saying "SIBOR + 0.70%", how come seller can now unilaterally change to "SIBOR + 0.85%"? :gun4:

Calling Citibank, we are giving you a chance to clarify on the above (in case we got the facts wrong)! :dog:

i think sanctity of the contract is of upmost importance, and that is maintaining the integrity of the financial system, hence the reason for MAS "inaction" in both minibonds and this citibank case. Both are made on willing buyer willing seller basis. No pressure sales tactic involved.

i am most interested in the sengkang columbarium case, given khaw explanation, how a commercial party run a non-commercial temple/columbarium etc

hopeful

17-03-15, 17:26

It appears that sanctity of the contract of utmost importance to you but not to Citibank since in the case we heard, Citibank has mortgage loan agreement that states that interest charged will be "SIBOR + 0.70%" but now Citibank is unilaterally changing to "SIBOR + 0.85%" right?

Also, willing buyer and willing seller inked contract saying "SIBOR + 0.70%", how come seller can now unilaterally change to "SIBOR + 0.85%"? :gun4:

Calling Citibank, we are giving you a chance to clarify on the above (in case we got the facts wrong)! :dog:

did you read the terms and conditions? i will repost the link.
https://www.citibank.com.sg/global_docs/microsite/ln/hl/ipa/hms_tnc.pdf

the mortgagee and mortgagor signed a contract, which has a clause specifying that the bank has the right to change the tenure, spread, call back the loan etc.
by signing the contract, the mortgagee infact agreed that the bank can unilaterally change the tenure, spread etc.
The T&C documents are publicly available, doesnt take more than a minute to google it.

AMK's stance is citibank is legally right, but morally wrong.
Teddy, is your stance citibank is legally wrong? yes/no ?

teddybear

17-03-15, 17:58

Wah, the words so small, I can't even read it!
But hei, this is the Terms & Conditions document, the mortgagee didn't sign it!
For example, in my case, I NEVER sign it!
I only sign the main mortgage loan agreement (on all pages), which is pretty standard across all banks, which usually say something like:
Year 1: 3M-SIBOR + 0.65%
Year 2: 3M-SIBOR + 0.65%
Year 3 and thereafter: 3M-SIBOR + 0.75%

So, it is clear that from Year 3 and thereafter, the interest that the bank agreed to charge is "3M-SIBOR + 0.75%"!

My own opinion is that Citibank's stance cannot stand up to challenge legally, because clauses in T&C document that the mortgagee didn't sign (and hence did not explicitly agree) cannot be used to over-rule the terms agreed in the main contract signed by both parties - if the said mortgagee's situation is as I described above.

However, I suppose the bank in question is taking the view that because the number of affected customers is probably small, and there is no class action law in Singapore, they do so secretly on the sly and hopefully MAS and CASE will not know and/or do anything, and at the end the small flies will not have the muscle to take them on and they can get away with it? There is another factor, which is that they probably think many of these people probably cannot switch to other banks because of failing TDSR etc imposed by MAS?

Thus, it is all the more important that MAS and CASE step in to protect the consumers from being bullied by the Gorilla!

Think about it, if today this bank is allowed to do so by MAS and CASE (both keeping quiet), then tomorrow other banks can do it!

Such catch-all clauses in terms and conditions (regardless of being signed by the consumers or not) are common ONLY in countries like Singapore where is no strong consumer protection laws!
Soon, we will see telcos also exercising some clauses in their small-font wordy T&Cs to change their monthly charges/or bill rates/or free-talk-time or free-bandwidth space allocated for internet and phone services within penalty lock-in period (happened before! who remember what is outcome of that case?), then utilities, then big service companies etc etc?

If there is no action against the bank in question by the relevant government bodies, then are they telling us by their actions that they do not care about protecting the right and fair interest of the Singaporeans?

did you read the terms and conditions? i will repost the link.
https://www.citibank.com.sg/global_docs/microsite/ln/hl/ipa/hms_tnc.pdf

the mortgagee and mortgagor signed a contract, which has a clause specifying that the bank has the right to change the tenure, spread, call back the loan etc.
by signing the contract, the mortgagee infact agreed that the bank can unilaterally change the tenure, spread etc.
The T&C documents are publicly available, doesnt take more than a minute to google it.

AMK's stance is citibank is legally right, but morally wrong.
Teddy, is your stance citibank is legally wrong? yes/no ?

amk

18-03-15, 14:29

This is in today's zaobao :

http://www.zaobao.com/finance/singapore/story20150318-458229

this writeup is much more reasonable.

teddybear

18-03-15, 16:18

To add to my comments below, I refer you to today's news article on what constitute 'unfair practices' in the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act:

"the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act states that even if the consumer had entered into a written agreement with such terms with the hotel (ignorantly or carelessly), such an agreement can be challenged in court by the consumer suing the hotel on the grounds that it is an "unfair practice".
One of the "unfair practices" specified in this Act is "taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable"."

The Straits Times
www.straitstimes.comPublished on Mar 18, 2015

Recourse for consumers over 'unfair practices'

CONSUMERS do have some legal recourse over unfair practices by businesses ("Case looks into wedding banquet cancellation fees"; Monday).
Speaker of Parliament Halimah Yacob cited the case of a couple who had to pay half the cost of the wedding banquet, despite cancelling their booking a year before the wedding. This is clearly exorbitant and punitive, which is not allowed by the law.
If the hotel wants the couple to pay half of the banquet cost, it must be able to prove in court that it has suffered such actual damages (amounting to half the cost).
Since the cancellation notice was given a year in advance, it is hard to imagine how the hotel could have suffered a loss of such an amount.
Furthermore, the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act states that even if the consumer had entered into a written agreement with such terms with the hotel (ignorantly or carelessly), such an agreement can be challenged in court by the consumer suing the hotel on the grounds that it is an "unfair practice".
One of the "unfair practices" specified in this Act is "taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable".
Tan Sin Liang
Copyright © 2015 Singapore Press Holdings.

Wah, the words so small, I can't even read it!
But hei, this is the Terms & Conditions document, the mortgagee didn't sign it!
For example, in my case, I NEVER sign it!
I only sign the main mortgage loan agreement (on all pages), which is pretty standard across all banks, which usually say something like:
Year 1: 3M-SIBOR + 0.65%
Year 2: 3M-SIBOR + 0.65%
Year 3 and thereafter: 3M-SIBOR + 0.75%

So, it is clear that from Year 3 and thereafter, the interest that the bank agreed to charge is "3M-SIBOR + 0.75%"!

My own opinion is that Citibank's stance cannot stand up to challenge legally, because clauses in T&C document that the mortgagee didn't sign (and hence did not explicitly agree) cannot be used to over-rule the terms agreed in the main contract signed by both parties - if the said mortgagee's situation is as I described above.

However, I suppose the bank in question is taking the view that because the number of affected customers is probably small, and there is no class action law in Singapore, they do so secretly on the sly and hopefully MAS and CASE will not know and/or do anything, and at the end the small flies will not have the muscle to take them on and they can get away with it? There is another factor, which is that they probably think many of these people probably cannot switch to other banks because of failing TDSR etc imposed by MAS?

Thus, it is all the more important that MAS and CASE step in to protect the consumers from being bullied by the Gorilla!

Think about it, if today this bank is allowed to do so by MAS and CASE (both keeping quiet), then tomorrow other banks can do it!

Such catch-all clauses in terms and conditions (regardless of being signed by the consumers or not) are common ONLY in countries like Singapore where is no strong consumer protection laws!
Soon, we will see telcos also exercising some clauses in their small-font wordy T&Cs to change their monthly charges/or bill rates/or free-talk-time or free-bandwidth space allocated for internet and phone services within penalty lock-in period (happened before! who remember what is outcome of that case?), then utilities, then big service companies etc etc?

If there is no action against the bank in question by the relevant government bodies, then are they telling us by their actions that they do not care about protecting the right and fair interest of the Singaporeans?

economist

19-03-15, 12:19

Good one! Excessive one-sided agreements are everywhere, we need a stronger enforcement of Consumer Protection Act, and more fundamentally a more proactive consumer population.

To add to my comments below, I refer you to today's news article on what constitute 'unfair practices' in the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act:

"the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act states that even if the consumer had entered into a written agreement with such terms with the hotel (ignorantly or carelessly), such an agreement can be challenged in court by the consumer suing the hotel on the grounds that it is an "unfair practice".
One of the "unfair practices" specified in this Act is "taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable"."

The Straits Times
www.straitstimes.comPublished on Mar 18, 2015

Recourse for consumers over 'unfair practices'

CONSUMERS do have some legal recourse over unfair practices by businesses ("Case looks into wedding banquet cancellation fees"; Monday).
Speaker of Parliament Halimah Yacob cited the case of a couple who had to pay half the cost of the wedding banquet, despite cancelling their booking a year before the wedding. This is clearly exorbitant and punitive, which is not allowed by the law.
If the hotel wants the couple to pay half of the banquet cost, it must be able to prove in court that it has suffered such actual damages (amounting to half the cost).
Since the cancellation notice was given a year in advance, it is hard to imagine how the hotel could have suffered a loss of such an amount.
Furthermore, the Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act states that even if the consumer had entered into a written agreement with such terms with the hotel (ignorantly or carelessly), such an agreement can be challenged in court by the consumer suing the hotel on the grounds that it is an "unfair practice".
One of the "unfair practices" specified in this Act is "taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable".
Tan Sin Liang
Copyright © 2015 Singapore Press Holdings.

amk

20-03-15, 11:15

we need ... and more fundamentally a more proactive consumer population.

from the zaopao report,

他说：“我们看准SIBOR是透明和公平的，银行无论如何都无法作弊。我们万万没想到的是，银行竟然可以就此改变息差。”

该名读者义愤填膺地说：“这是不道德、不公正和无法被接受的行为。”

消协认为，花旗银行若在无正当理由的情况下改变利率，对其贷款客户并不公平

these are in national papers, proactive enough ? how "proactive" do you want consumer to be ? hire a lawyer to sue the bank ?
If there is no legislation in place, or a precedent the authority takes care of such incidents, there is very little consumer can do.

teddybear

20-03-15, 11:35

Your friend is really lucky! Consumer Protection (Fair Trading) Act cover financial products and services only from April 2009!
If your friend's case happen before that date, he really has no law to back him up and have recourse over the unfair treatment he received from Citibank!
Even with the law, let's wait and see who/which organization is going to help to fight for justice for your friend?
Have laws but nobody to propogate and made known and aware to other people and nobody with authority to help fight the case also no use BECAUSE the GORILLA always think that you "small fries" and individuals are NO FIGHT against them!!!!

Is it time that Singapore enact class action suit law so that people can sue a group against unfair treatment/practise/oppression (e.g. DBS' Lehman note case) etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Since 15 April 2009, the CPFTA was amended to cover financial products and services. This and other amendments were made to widen the scope of protection offered to consumers and facilitate a fairer trading environment for both consumers and businesses. The legislation protects consumers, without adding onerous burden to businesses and costs. "

from the zaopao report,

these are in national papers, proactive enough ? how "proactive" do you want consumer to be ? hire a lawyer to sue the bank ?
If there is no legislation in place, or a precedent the authority takes care of such incidents, there is very little consumer can do.

hopeful

20-03-15, 12:29

that's where human behaviour comes in.
Let me calculate:
They come up with money, and I dont put any money (i am free rider).
1) if they win, i also win
2) if they lose (everybody loses against the banks), status quo for me.

Hence,
I also strongly encourage the person(s) to come up with the money to sue Citibank for the benefit of us all, me and Teddy included

teddybear

20-03-15, 16:57

Translations (pardon me if translation not well done):

" 他说：“我们看准SIBOR是透明和公平的，银行无论如何都无法作弊。我们万万没想到的是，银行竟然可以就此改变息差。”

该名读者义愤填膺地说：“这是不道德、不公正和无法被接受的行为。”

He said: "We spotted SIBOR is transparent and fair, and the bank can not cheat in any case. We never thought that this bank would change the interest rate differential unilaterally."

The reader angrily said: "It is immoral, unjust and is unacceptable behaviour."

" 消协认为，花旗银行若在无正当理由的情况下改变利率，对其贷款客户并不公平"

Consumers Association of Singapore CASE believes that Citibank's changes in interest rates in the case of its loan without valid reason is unwarranted and is not fair to its clients.

from the zaopao report,

他说：“我们看准SIBOR是透明和公平的，银行无论如何都无法作弊。我们万万没想到的是，银行竟然可以就此改变息差。”

该名读者义愤填膺地说：“这是不道德、不公正和无法被接受的行为。”

消协认为，花旗银行若在无正当理由的情况下改变利率，对其贷款客户并不公平

these are in national papers, proactive enough ? how "proactive" do you want consumer to be ? hire a lawyer to sue the bank ?
If there is no legislation in place, or a precedent the authority takes care of such incidents, there is very little consumer can do.

teddybear

20-03-15, 17:02

Sue Citibank?

How much money you have? They have inhouse lawyers right? Do you have? Citibank do not need to spend additional CENT to take on your law suit using their inhouse lawyers whose salary are already paid (regarding of whether you bring law suit against them or not right)? No wonder they have no qualm about doing thing that is unjust and unfair to small fries like us?

that's where human behaviour comes in.
Let me calculate:
They come up with money, and I dont put any money (i am free rider).
1) if they win, i also win
2) if they lose (everybody loses against the banks), status quo for me.

Hence,
I also strongly encourage the person(s) to come up with the money to sue Citibank for the benefit of us all, me and Teddy included

henryhk

20-03-15, 17:20

Aiyo, if banks anyhow change , we as consumers will going do one thing, change bank lor , Singapore so many banks !

teddybear

20-03-15, 17:31

Since 1 bank can do that,
soon every banks also do the same?
After that, which one can you then change to that you expect to treat you fairly and honour their side of the agreed and signed contract? :scared-3:

Aiyo, if banks anyhow change , we as consumers will going do one thing, change bank lor , Singapore so many banks !

hopeful

20-03-15, 18:08

Sue Citibank?

How much money you have? They have inhouse lawyers right? Do you have? Citibank do not need to spend additional CENT to take on your law suit using their inhouse lawyers whose salary are already paid (regarding of whether you bring law suit against them or not right)? No wonder they have no qualm about doing thing that is unjust and unfair to small fries like us?

I am just a freeloader what, i dont make noise about injustice. wayearlier, i have already said i accepted big fish eat small fish. that's life and no point getting angry.
unfortunately, certain forummers claimmed it is immoral and unjust, take action etc, etc.
WHen it comes to vocal support, some people are very loud.
when ask them to come out with money, the very same people keep quiet and ask "how much money you have".

Sandiwara

20-03-15, 18:33

teddybear

20-03-15, 20:54

Isn't that what we are doing now? Spread the news on internet, on Facebook, everywhere! Raise the awareness! :cheerful:

Let the relevant authority and organizations (like MAS and CASE etc), if they are responsible people, to deal with them! Let them show us that they really care about their citizens and are willing to go all out to help their citizens who are subjected to unfair and unjust treatments!

If they don't, then come General Election time, SINGAPOREANS SHOULD SHOW THEM THEIR CITIZEN POWER (either APPRECIATION or the OPPOSITE - their choice!)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No need to sue just put on Facebook the actual fact and distributed the news around the wold

Sandiwara

20-03-15, 22:22

I just post it to my Facebook. I hope this will not give to much traffic to this site

teddybear

20-03-15, 22:46

GREAT! :applause: :cheers4:

I just post it to my Facebook. I hope this will not give to much traffic to this site

hopeful

31-03-15, 10:53

i have been keeping track of this since issue started.
everyday googling "citibank singapore" and looking at 10 pages worth of results doesnt show anything remotely about citibank raising rates.

from the 5 stages of grief,
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
does people have now passed to acceptance stage? that banks can change the T&C whenever they like?

amk

31-03-15, 12:46

The story was published in Straits Times last Saturday. I cannot get the link. Maybe you can find it.

In it, the Citi "Head of Secured Lending" explained what "throughout" means: "it means it covers the whole term of the loan", in another words, (he didn't say), it does NOT mean it will remain unchanged. What a disingenuous answer ! Had this been a parliament debate and he said such thing in front of the ppl, he would have been ridiculed to death.

My friend is still fighting with them. However MAS is not helping. I do not think "people" accepted this. I think "people" did not generate enough buzz. No active online coverage of this matter, and not many people actively helping the cause. The affected ppl are not that many, and not all of them are active online, hardwarezone type of folks.

teddybear

31-03-15, 13:19

Seems like I am right to say that our Singapore MAS is not pro-active in protecting Singapore consumers' interest, unlike HK equivalent MAS, look at Lehman Note case and now again?????

that Citibank Head says "throughout" means "covers the whole term of loan", doesn't it means that the figure cannot be changed? what talking him???? If "0.65% throughout" can be changed to other value, then why put "throughout"??????

CASE, not doing anything?
Isn't CASE just recently fighting the hotels on unfair treatment for cancellation of wedding packages with hotels?
This mortgage loan issue affects even more Singaporeans and they are not going to be pro-active to help? Don't they think they are short-sighted? Weddings is just a person's ONCE in a life-time event, but mortgages >80% of Singaporeans will have, more or less!

So we have:
MAS - Not going to do anything! (as far as we can know now and they have been consulted for the news article).
CASE - Not going to do anything (as far as we know now since they have been consulted for the news article).
financial dispute resolution centre - ???

The story was published in Straits Times last Saturday. I cannot get the link. Maybe you can find it.

In it, the Citi "Head of Secured Lending" explained what "throughout" means: "it means it covers the whole term of the loan", in another words, (he didn't say), it does NOT mean it will remain unchanged. What a disingenuous answer ! Had this been a parliament debate and he said such thing in front of the ppl, he would have been ridiculed to death.

My friend is still fighting with them. However MAS is not helping. I do not think "people" accepted this. I think "people" did not generate enough buzz. No active online coverage of this matter, and not many people actively helping the cause. The affected ppl are not that many, and not all of them are active online, hardwarezone type of folks.

teddybear

31-03-15, 13:37

Here is the article published in Straits Times:

In summary, the news article tells us that:

1) Citibank UNILATERALLY hike the spread for their SIBOR loan (e.g. loan with interest term being "SIBOR + 0.60%) from 0.60% to 0.85%.

2) Citibank insisted that they have the right to change the spread, despite the complaint of unfair treatment by Citibank and query by the journalist.
Citibank Head's definition of "0.65% throughout" in mortgage loan agreement definitely is NOT WHAT WE UNDERSTAND. May be he can show us his dictionary's definition?

3) Consumers Association of Singapore (CASE) asked Citibank to "justify such rate changes clearly to the affected consumers".
My understanding: CASE asked Citibank to "justify" to pacify their customers can already (and CASE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING MORE......) :cower:

4) Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) said "it does not regulate the setting of interest rates but the banks must provide clear and relevant information on products and services, said a spokesman, adding that MAS has asked Citibank to review the customer feedback received".
My understanding: MAS asked that Citibank to review customer feedback received (can already, MAS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING MORE......) :pig:

Borrowers upset over hike in margin for Sibor loans

Monday, Mar 30, 2015
Rachel Boon
The Straits Times

MANY home buyers with loans pegged to the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (Sibor) have been hit with higher repayments following the Sibor's increase this year.

That is to be expected, but some Citibank customers have also found that the margin or spread - the added percentage banks tack on to the Sibor - has also moved up.

They were informed earlier this month that the spread on their Sibor-pegged loans would increase to 0.85 per cent from the promotional rate they had signed up with. The change takes effect from April 1.

Citibank said the spreads range from 0.6 to 0.8 per cent for customers who took up loans in late 2010 and in 2011.

One customer said he has been on a three-month Sibor loan since 2011 under a two-year lock-in package. His spread has risen from 0.7 per cent to 0.85 per cent.

However, Citibank said raising the spread has affected only a small number of people.

Mr Peng Chun Hsien, Citibank Singapore's head of secured finance solutions, also stressed that the "current revision is only applicable to clients outside the lock-in period".

Another customer, a Mr Lee, said he has been on a one-month Sibor home loan since 2011.

He told The Straits Times his spread has risen from 0.65 to 0.85 per cent but he had thought the spread would stay at 0.65 per cent throughout the loan.

Mr Peng told The Straits Times: "The word 'throughout' is a term the industry uses, and refers to the tenure and period that we are covering."

He added that affected customers had been given sufficient notice so that the process is transparent and they can opt to refinance their loans. Mr Peng noted that the overall rate is still fairly competitive.

Mr Keff Hui, a broker at Mortgage Supermart Singapore, noted that an 0.85 per cent spread used to be the market rate but some banks had lowered it to attract customers.

Another client on a one-month Sibor said: "Sibor is already variable and has gone up by 100 per cent year on year. "How can the spread be variable too?"

Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon.

The Straits Times understands that banks such as United Overseas Bank and OCBC Bank have not increased the spreads. A DBS Bank spokesman said DBS and POSB have not varied spreads while under an existing agreement with customers. He said an 0.85 per cent spread used to be the market rate but some banks have lowered it to attract customers.

Customer Mr Lee said: "I will have to pay $200 to $300 more a month, but the amount is not significant. It's about how the bank can do this to customers."

Mr Seah Seng Choon, executive director of the Consumers Association of Singapore, said: "We are of the view that the banks should justify such rate changes clearly to the affected consumers. Such changes will not be fair to consumers if there is no justification to do so."

Citibank said it undertook "careful consideration of factors including prevailing market conditions" before making the move.

The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) said it does not regulate the setting of interest rates but the banks must provide clear and relevant information on products and services, said a spokesman, adding that MAS has asked Citibank to review the customer feedback received.

Mr Peng said all the terms and conditions have been carefully outlined and that interest-rate definitions are clearly stated.

He encouraged affected customers to contact the bank, adding that any decision they make regarding their loans will not be bound by any penalty or fees.

The story was published in Straits Times last Saturday. I cannot get the link. Maybe you can find it.

In it, the Citi "Head of Secured Lending" explained what "throughout" means: "it means it covers the whole term of the loan", in another words, (he didn't say), it does NOT mean it will remain unchanged. What a disingenuous answer ! Had this been a parliament debate and he said such thing in front of the ppl, he would have been ridiculed to death.

My friend is still fighting with them. However MAS is not helping. I do not think "people" accepted this. I think "people" did not generate enough buzz. No active online coverage of this matter, and not many people actively helping the cause. The affected ppl are not that many, and not all of them are active online, hardwarezone type of folks.

hopeful

31-03-15, 14:00

thanks teddy and amk for the article.

but i am suprised that although the article was Mar 30, 2015. googling "citibank singapore" and limit the search to the past 24 hours dont even show the ST article.
Looks like citibank has a rather active news generator. it simply generates newer and newer articles until whatever negative stuff is push down the chain.
So unless a googler already has the intention to look up about the case and use very specific keywords, the casual searcher won't know such things or even those comparing mortgages will not find about it.

And one more interesting stuff: Not sure whether these finance industry experts really know or are just hedging their words.
Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon.
Perhaps I read too much, but "uncommon" seems to imply that it has happened a few times before.

amk

31-03-15, 14:59

thanks teddybear for the news article (does it need a paid subscription ?)

Mr Peng told The Straits Times: "The word 'throughout' is a term the industry uses, and refers to the tenure and period that we are covering."

this statement is so incredible that it needs higher degree of cynicism to comprehend (hopeful I bet you are not able to come out with this explanation :) ). I sent the reporter an email asking her whether she can ask Mr Peng to further explain what these 2 words together "spread throughout" mean, not just the word "throughout".

Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon.

Previous Chinese article said no other bank has ever done this. In fact this statement is self contradictory: if it were "standard practice", why doing it is "uncommon" ?

icarus777

31-03-15, 15:41

Hi,

I have a Citibank Loan which have yet to be disbursed. Should I be concern about Citibank's actions now?

hopeful

31-03-15, 15:45

thanks teddybear for the news article (does it need a paid subscription ?)
this statement is so incredible that it needs higher degree of cynicism to comprehend (hopeful I bet you are not able to come out with this explanation :) ). I sent the reporter an email asking her whether she can ask Mr Peng to further explain what these 2 words together "spread throughout" mean, not just the word "throughout".

Previous Chinese article said no other bank has ever done this. In fact this statement is self contradictory: if it were "standard practice", why doing it is "uncommon" ?

yup, i also cannot understand. But i also knows that since I am not in the finance industry, the parlance used in finance industry maybe different from everyday use of the language.
like for example, difference between "capital protected" and "capital guaranteed". To layman, these 2 phrase means the same thing, but in finance industry parlance, these 2 phrases have entirely different meanings.
another recent example is "overcharging" and "overbilling".

I also kena burned by minibonds. That's my expensive lesson to start reading the fine print and leave ego/pride at the door. mine money is at stake. if i look stupid asking stupid questions, so be it. I would assume correctly that most people dont ask stupid questions because they dont want to look stupid in front of bankers. so if those bankers meet a person who ask stupid questions, that may be hopeful.
My advice once again is: people spend years to collect the hundred of thousands of dollars to pay downpayment, why not spend a few more hours/days to read the fine print before spending that years of work?

as for the industry practice, review spread is standard practice, which does not necessarily lead to changing spread.
it is the changing of spread that is not standard practice, ie uncommon.

hopeful

31-03-15, 16:11

Hi,

I have a Citibank Loan which have yet to be disbursed. Should I be concern about Citibank's actions now?

citibank have used their ace card so early in the year, you will be safe from further revisions for this year. it is the other banks you have to worry about.

bargain hunter

31-03-15, 16:25

they won't touch u until your lock in period is up. BEWARE when its close to that time!

Hi,

I have a Citibank Loan which have yet to be disbursed. Should I be concern about Citibank's actions now?

hopeful

31-03-15, 16:25

i think this explanation of throughout is better than mr peng's.

From the article and experience, i gathered that the terms are separate:
tenure: 30 years
rate: SIBOR + 0.65% spread throughout.
lock-in period: 2 years

so throughout is it defined or un-defined in the loan document? or do we assume the definition? perhaps citibank intepret it as throughout the 2 year lock in period. (and we didnt clarify before hand and assume that it is throughout the 30 years.)
so in this case, "throughout" means the lock-in period and not the entire 30 years.
So SIBOR + 0.65% fixed spread through out means spread 0.65% is fixed within the lock-in period, once outside the lock-in period, it is adjustable.

perhaps next time, when we see throughout, have to ask definition of throughout :)
or put in handwriting (in red) next to the terms: rate: SIBOR + 0.65% spread throughout the 30 year mortgage.

amk

31-03-15, 18:04

or put in handwriting (in red) next to the terms: rate: SIBOR + 0.65% spread throughout the 30 year mortgage.

no what, Citi can always say somewhere, (and it does say), "all rates are subjected to change" what.
so whatever x yr spread throughout whatever is pointless.

bottom line seems to be, banks are pricing the loan for the lockin period anyway. any rate/spread after that, is not "guaranteed". This means all those throughout spread/rate deals are in danger. Ppl today pay for a higher throughout spread/rate thinking doing it just once and for all. They will be feel even more shortchanged. In 2011 time Citi throughout rate was as low as "normal" 3Y rate, which was rather unusual at that time. (now it's clear: Citi never intended to stick to that anyway. just a sales gimmick.)

hopeful

31-03-15, 19:01

i think from the way mr peng is saying, citibank does not want to point out this clause to the public. (but i think once citibank has no choice, he will say this clause exist, and he will also point out that all other banks have this clause.)
you see english news article did not report on the existence of this clause at all in the bank(s) T&C. i dont know abt the chinese article.
are the reporters aware? are the finance industry experts aware? is MAS aware? is CASE aware?
yet why no mention of the clause at all? That is the question.
or as sherlock holmes say"the dog did not bark".

so now he is trying to play on the word "throughout", which is so far thus un-defined. you all can checked whether the definition of "throughout" exist in your loan documents.

teddybear

31-03-15, 21:27

Banks do not exist to do charity lah!
If the term is present, and it is fair, and they can increase their profits, why no bank does it except Citibank now being the first 1????

"review spread is standard practice, which does not necessarily lead to changing spread. it is the changing of spread that is not standard practice, ie uncommon."
- Actually, they do change spread, BUT BUT only for new mortgage loan contracts, not those that BANKS already signed and there is no term in the mortgage loan contract that says they can change the spread!!!!!!!!!!

It is clear to me from you example, say e.g. "3M_SIBOR + 0.60% throughout"
means 0.60% forever for the tenure of the loan, as long as you are still the bank mortgage loan customer and that mortgage loan agreement is still intact (i.e. you have not refinance)!

Hope the journalist will follow up with Citibank's Mr Peng to clarify all the questions we raised here!

yup, i also cannot understand. But i also knows that since I am not in the finance industry, the parlance used in finance industry maybe different from everyday use of the language.
like for example, difference between "capital protected" and "capital guaranteed". To layman, these 2 phrase means the same thing, but in finance industry parlance, these 2 phrases have entirely different meanings.
another recent example is "overcharging" and "overbilling".

I also kena burned by minibonds. That's my expensive lesson to start reading the fine print and leave ego/pride at the door. mine money is at stake. if i look stupid asking stupid questions, so be it. I would assume correctly that most people dont ask stupid questions because they dont want to look stupid in front of bankers. so if those bankers meet a person who ask stupid questions, that may be hopeful.
My advice once again is: people spend years to collect the hundred of thousands of dollars to pay downpayment, why not spend a few more hours/days to read the fine print before spending that years of work?

as for the industry practice, review spread is standard practice, which does not necessarily lead to changing spread.
it is the changing of spread that is not standard practice, ie uncommon.

teddybear

01-04-15, 07:54

Letter published in Today Voices (see URL (http://www.todayonline.com/voices/nothing-stop-bank-raising-loan-margins) and below):

Now we have more information. It appears that the bank is giving excuses, like:
"adjusting to market trends and that the small print in the contract allows for this."

It appears that the bank in question may have pushed to secure more of such loans at that time with seemingly attractive terms BUT with no intention to keep to their side of the agreement (and to honour their attractive terms) and they believed that they "small print in the contract" could allow them to do this?

Why is Consumer Association of Singapore (CASE) NOT DOING ANYTHING about such unfair contract to the consumers that is contravening the CPFTA (Consumers Protection and Fair Trade Act)?

Nothing to stop bank from raising loan margins?

In June 2010, I took a mortgage that was marketed and signed as having the Singapore interbank offered rate (Sibor) plus 0.65 per cent as the interest rate throughout the loan tenure.

FROM OH ENG LEE - MARCH 31

In June 2010, I took a mortgage that was marketed and signed as having the Singapore interbank offered rate (Sibor) plus 0.65 per cent as the interest rate throughout the loan tenure.

This month, I received a letter stating that Citibank is revising the rate to Sibor plus 0.85 per cent.

When I called the bank, I was told only that it is adjusting to market trends and that the small print in the contract allows for this.

So, the bank has invoked the clause without any good reasons other than it can legally do so. What would stop it then from raising the spread to 1 or even 1.5 per cent next year just because it could?

The Monetary Authority of Singapore or the Consumers Association of Singapore should do something, as this is unfair to consumers.

teddybear

01-04-15, 08:01

Another Letter published in Today Voices (see URL (http://www.todayonline.com/voices/should-banks-be-allowed-adjust-rates-their-discretion) and below):

Now, the below letter didn't say why that bank in question has the right to adjust the spread.
The statement "“Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions." we would just interpret it as changes to the SIBOR rate and nothing else. In no where did their mortgage loan agreement says that they can change the "spread" value right? :pig:

So, can Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) please answer the question:
"The question for the Monetary Authority of Singapore is whether banks are allowed to adjust their margin at their total discretion?."
(when there is no such term clearly spelled out in the mortgage loan main contract)

Should banks be allowed to adjust rates at their discretion?

I took up a mortgage in 2011, with the effective interest rate being the one-month Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (SIBOR) plus 0.68 per cent for the first year and thereafter, as well as a minimum interest rate of 0.8 per cent.

FROM NG EE LAINE - APRIL 1

I took up a mortgage in 2011, with the effective interest rate being the one-month Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (SIBOR) plus 0.68 per cent for the first year and thereafter, as well as a minimum interest rate of 0.8 per cent.

The bank’s facility letter also stated: “Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notice to the borrower for any changes.”

Now, I have been informed that my mortgage interest rate “will be revised to one-month SIBOR plus 0.85 per cent” after March 31.

While I understand that my mortgage interest rate would be subject to SIBOR changes, this move by the bank seems contrary to the agreement in the facility letter.

The question for the Monetary Authority of Singapore is whether banks are allowed to adjust their margin at their total discretion.

Also, can such a clause as “the bank will not be giving advance notice to the borrower for any changes” in the interest rate be legally imposed by a financial institution?

teddybear

01-04-15, 08:07

3rd Letter on the same bank (is it Citibank?) published in Today Voices (see URL (http://www.todayonline.com/voices/banks-profiteering-uptrend-sibor) and below):

In response to below letter writer's question:
Borrowers with such SIBOR packages have no recourse and are at the mercy of the bank, making a mockery of a “fixed spread” agreement. Would the Consumers Association of Singapore or any relevant authorities comment on such an unfair practice?

Sorry to tell the below letter writer that as of NOW (that we know so far),
MAS (Monetary Authority of Singapore) is NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING!
CASE (Consumers Association of Singapore) is NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING!

You Singaporeans have to go fight with the 800-pound GORILLA bank (who has all the lawyers at their beak and call)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have enough money to sue the bank and win them????
Seems like a case of big bully at work????
Are all the letters referring to the same bank - Citibank?

So far, from other news articles, only Citibank had been mentioned as the BANK TO ADJUST THE SIBOR LOAN SPREAD!

Banks profiteering from uptrend in SIBOR

A few years ago, I took up a mortgage package pegged to the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (SIBOR), at a spread of 0.6 per cent plus SIBOR.

FROM KELVIN LEE JIE - APRIL 1

A few years ago, I took up a mortgage package pegged to the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (SIBOR), at a spread of 0.6 per cent plus SIBOR.

The interest rate has just been revised to 0.85 per cent plus SIBOR, with no explanation provided.

Though the bank reserves the right to review the interest rate from time to time and adjust it accordingly, to raise the spread by more than 40 per cent overnight is outrageous.

As the mortgage rate is SIBOR-pegged, the rising cost of funds is already passed on to borrowers, with the bank making a profit in the spread. (“Home owners hit as Sibor rises to highest in seven years”; March 13) This is profiteering from the current uptrend in SIBOR, similar to the petroleum companies recently raising pump prices by more than the increase in petrol duties.

Borrowers with such SIBOR packages have no recourse and are at the mercy of the bank, making a mockery of a “fixed spread” agreement. Would the Consumers Association of Singapore or any relevant authorities comment on such an unfair practice?

teddybear

01-04-15, 08:26

I believe the word "throughout" is not necessary and do not change anything to, for example, I say our agreement term is:
Year 1: SIBOR + 0.60%
Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.60%

The word "throughout" is present or not do not change anything that the interest is still "SIBOR + 0.60%" from Year 2 and thereafter, because the figure "0.60%" by itself means that it is understood to be fixed! Otherwise, they would have written it as:

Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + spread to be determined solely by the bank from time to time!

The bank can argue whatever they like but the FACT that the main mortgage loan contract agreement did not CLEARLY state that they can change the SPREAD from time to time means THEY CAN'T CHANGE THE SPREAD!

i think from the way mr peng is saying, citibank does not want to point out this clause to the public. (but i think once citibank has no choice, he will say this clause exist, and he will also point out that all other banks have this clause.)
you see english news article did not report on the existence of this clause at all in the bank(s) T&C. i dont know abt the chinese article.
are the reporters aware? are the finance industry experts aware? is MAS aware? is CASE aware?
yet why no mention of the clause at all? That is the question.
or as sherlock holmes say"the dog did not bark".

so now he is trying to play on the word "throughout", which is so far thus un-defined. you all can checked whether the definition of "throughout" exist in your loan documents.

hopeful

01-04-15, 08:50

Year 2 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.60%

and what is the meaning of thereafter ?

hopeful

01-04-15, 08:57

amk, teddy, do be aware of misdirection.
They throw you a bone ("throughout"), and you all chase after the bone.

once again, according to sherlock holmes, "the dog did not bark". There is no mention of catch-all clause in the news by all the parties (press, finance experts, affected parties, case, mas, etc) mentioned.
shouldn't the main focus be on the catch-all clause ?
Forget about the bones thrown and focus on the meat.
Once you do remove the foundation stone, the rest will fall in place.

hopeful

01-04-15, 09:22

teddybear

01-04-15, 09:42

Ok, I am just quoting based on Dictionary definition:
thereafter = after that (time), following that,

So, "Year 2 and thereafter" will mean "Year 2 and after that time...".

Obviously if bank(s) want to dispute this based on their so-called "industry practises" (just like they try to re-define "throughout"), then they better show us their "industry Dictionary" to prove that. Otherwise, it is just excuses meant to mislead and cheat consumers?

language is very powerful. "thereafter" and "throughout" is all subject to interpretaton.
To minimize errors, won't a table be better. it only adds an extra page to the letter of offer.
year 0: SIBOR + 0.65%.
year 1: SIBOR + 0.65%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 0.65%
year 30: SIBOR + 0.65%

or other versions like
year 0: SIBOR + 0.9%
year 1: SIBOR + 1.0%
year 2: SIBOR + 1.1%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 1.1%
year 30: SIBOR + 1.1%

As I said, this proposal only adds a page. But try proposing this format to your bankers. Outright rejection.
So what does this tells us about the word "throughout" and "thereafter" ?

edit: to minimise further misintepretation, in case they play with spread WITHIN the year.
year 0 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%
year 1 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%

ggmount

01-04-15, 09:57

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

teddybear

01-04-15, 10:01

Fat hope, ha ha ha!
Spread has been increasing, NO MORE 0.85% spread (as far as I know)!

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

hopeful

01-04-15, 10:15

teddy, what ggmount is trying to tell you is that spread of 0.85% is still a good deal for the affected citibank customers.

amk

01-04-15, 14:14

hopeful, teddybear, bargain hunter, and whoever who feel strongly Citi is not doing the right thing, please help to write to Today, StraitsTimes, Zaobao.

for the strait time article, I found the link, the email address of the reporter is there.

http://business.asiaone.com/news/borrowers-upset-over-hike-margin-sibor-loans

Only a sufficiently large public outcry can bring some attention from MAS. (CASE, forget about CASE, it's toothless).

btw hopeful: it's only after the Lehman case when MAS stipulated what product can be said "Guaranteed" (i.e. needs to be "A" rated, must be 100%, etc), and "capital protected" is forbidden. So MAS can act if it feels necessary. We need MAS to tell ABS to adopt fair mortgage contracts.

amk

01-04-15, 14:15

Err... is there better rate than this new 0.85% ?

Consumer not happy can refinance switch bank ?

and should the bank compensate the cost of switch ? and what if the customer is not able due to TDSR ?

sabian

01-04-15, 14:37

Too bad you can't vote when it comes to appointing CASE exco.

ggmount

01-04-15, 16:26

hopeful

01-04-15, 18:34

side track a bit:
people used to say HK is laissez faire and SG is strictly controlled.
in HK, you can do whatever you want that is not expressly forbidden.
in SG, you cannot do what is not expressly allowed.

But recent example like minibonds, where there is govt intervention seems to turn the position of HK and SG around. SG is now more laissez faire than HK, at least in the finance and banking sector.
What is the world coming to?

My thoughts:
SG govt wants to develop the finance and banking sector.
Right now the size of the sector in SG is smaller when compared to those in HK.
MAS position is: if SG put in stricter rules, why should financiers/bankers move to SG ?
That's why they allowed operators like Geneva Gold or Ecohouse or time-sharing. However MAS do their 2cents bit by putting them on Investor Alert List.
So it is a win-win for MAS : I allowed "shady" operators to grow the industry and I put these "shady" operators on the alert list, so I already give a warning to the investors. To those SOPHISTICATED investors, you are already aware of the risk, you die your tai chi.

on a side road again:
to the scammers, it is a low risk, high reward scheme.
to the investors, what appears to be a high risk, high reward scheme turns out to be high risk, no reward scheme.
as my old folks used to say, NOBODY will make money for you. If the returns are so good, they will eat it themselves and not share with you.

Back to MAS topic again:
So to grow the finance/banking sector, the rules will be less strict, like dual class shares.
afterall MAS also knows of this phrase:
"Capital goes where it's welcome and stays where it's well treated." --Walter B. Wriston

and how does this long winded post connect to mortgage documents again?
I see the end game as something like timesharing:
1) requirement to point out the catch-all clause to the mortgagee. banker to point out the clause and mortgagee to initial on the clause.
so now mortgagee aware of it already.
2) after sign the loi, can still back out within 2 weeks.

teddybear

01-04-15, 20:13

You mean Singapore MAS more interested to protect the interest and profits of banks like Citibank than Singaporean consumers/investors (after collecting possibly highest salary in the world from Singaporeans)?????????????????????? :scared-2:

side track a bit:
people used to say HK is laissez faire and SG is strictly controlled.
in HK, you can do whatever you want that is not expressly forbidden.
in SG, you cannot do what is not expressly allowed.

But recent example like minibonds, where there is govt intervention seems to turn the position of HK and SG around. SG is now more laissez faire than HK, at least in the finance and banking sector.
What is the world coming to?

My thoughts:
SG govt wants to develop the finance and banking sector.
Right now the size of the sector in SG is smaller when compared to those in HK.
MAS position is: if SG put in stricter rules, why should financiers/bankers move to SG ?
That's why they allowed operators like Geneva Gold or Ecohouse or time-sharing. However MAS do their 2cents bit by putting them on Investor Alert List.
So it is a win-win for MAS : I allowed "shady" operators to grow the industry and I put these "shady" operators on the alert list, so I already give a warning to the investors. To those SOPHISTICATED investors, you are already aware of the risk, you die your tai chi.

on a side road again:
to the scammers, it is a low risk, high reward scheme.
to the investors, what appears to be a high risk, high reward scheme turns out to be high risk, no reward scheme.
as my old folks used to say, NOBODY will make money for you. If the returns are so good, they will eat it themselves and not share with you.

Back to MAS topic again:
So to grow the finance/banking sector, the rules will be less strict, like dual class shares.
afterall MAS also knows of this phrase:
"Capital goes where it's welcome and stays where it's well treated." --Walter B. Wriston

and how does this long winded post connect to mortgage documents again?
I see the end game as something like timesharing:
1) requirement to point out the catch-all clause to the mortgagee. banker to point out the clause and mortgagee to initial on the clause.
so now mortgagee aware of it already.
2) after sign the loi, can still back out within 2 weeks.

BigBoy

01-04-15, 21:30

language is very powerful. "thereafter" and "throughout" is all subject to interpretaton.
To minimize errors, won't a table be better. it only adds an extra page to the letter of offer.
year 0: SIBOR + 0.65%.
year 1: SIBOR + 0.65%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 0.65%
year 30: SIBOR + 0.65%

or other versions like
year 0: SIBOR + 0.9%
year 1: SIBOR + 1.0%
year 2: SIBOR + 1.1%
..
..
year 29: SIBOR + 1.1%
year 30: SIBOR + 1.1%

As I said, this proposal only adds a page. But try proposing this format to your bankers. Outright rejection.
So what does this tells us about the word "throughout" and "thereafter" ?

edit: to minimise further misintepretation, in case they play with spread WITHIN the year.
year 0 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%
year 1 (and the months within): SIBOR + 0.65%

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

teddybear

01-04-15, 21:39

May be you should heed the advice at this website? (http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/homeseekers-homemakers-74/careful-citibank-housing-loan-4996924.html)

I copy below for your quick reference:

Be careful with Citibank housing loan

I thought I was safe to sign up a 1 month sibor+0.6% housing loan with Citibank in 2011 for 25 years not to worrying about keep refinancing every two three years.

Two weeks ago, I received a surprise Citibank letter advising me that they have raised the interest spread to sibor + 0.85%. I wrote to complain about their unilateral move to increase the spread without my consent. They told me that in the loan agreement, there was a fine-print saying that Citibank has the right to increase the spread at their discretion! I was shocked as I never realized that a bank can do that with our housing loan. I hope this is just Citibank and not all banks in Singapore...

Anyway, since I complained, they offered me 2 options: (i) a slight improved rate at sibor +0.75% for 3 years then jumping to sibor +1.1% after OR (ii) stay with their latest increased spread of sibor +0.85% "forever" but they made no commitment that they would not change their spread again in the near future. Any advice on which option I should take or I have better options to refinance out from Citibank?

Be careful if you want to sign up new loans with Citibank...

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

teddybear

01-04-15, 21:44

You can read more about your options here at this website (http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/breaking-banks-changing-terms-existing-property-loan-4984471-18.html)..............

I'm not affected at the moment as I'm still in the lock-in period.
I have in possession, a "Residential Property Loans Fact Sheet" that indicates the following,

Description of interest rate for loan:
1st year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
2nd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
3rd year 1M Sibor + 0.75%
4th year and onwards 1M Sibor + 0.75%

Will this make my case stronger?

MortgageGuru

01-04-15, 21:46

It doesn't help by playing with words around.
what bank does is still within legal framework is just that they seldom use this trump card in singapore context.
By making a big hooha complaining about it won't help much either, we're all adults, move on in life, seek a better alternatives.
one of my friend's loan with citi outstanding is worth 8 digit and he's been told by citi, if you're unhappy you can leave.
at the end of day, you should know what's best for you.

teddybear

01-04-15, 21:52

People who are affected by Citibank UNILATERALLY changing their SIBOR loan spread may want to join forces the others also affected at this website.... (http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/breaking-banks-changing-terms-existing-property-loan-4984471-18.html)

I attach their Citibank's loan agreement below, see who else the same and also affected?

Took up a bank loan back in 2011 where the terms are 0.7% + 3 mths sibor perpetually. The bank just recently "notify" me that going forward, the rate will be 0.85% + 3 mths sibor instead.

Do check your loan carefully. The banks seems to be pulling a stunt on borrowers.

The Tnc as follows (I cut down on some unnecessary wordings which has no impact)
(d)
Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate whall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate

They are saying that even if they decide to change the spread to 10% or even 100% tomorrow, they can still do it.

Edit: Will be writing in to MAS and ABS on this matter. For those affected person, please PM me and see how we can submit a joint petition letter. In particular, on clause (e):

It is interesting to note that the second sentence "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions." does not refer to Citibank at all. Thus, reading strictly by the rule, Citibank does not have the right to change the interest rate. The interest rate that will be changed is referring to Sibor.

Please see the images on the flyer and the loan agreement. there are other supporting documents which I will not be uploading at this point of time.

http://i59.tinypic.com/258t460.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/124u97q.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2i23q4m.png

http://i57.tinypic.com/14kgoxw.jpg

teddybear

01-04-15, 22:09

So you admit that Citibank is playing around with words?
But Really we can't do anything to Citibank?
So Consumer Protection Fair Trade Act is for show?
Banks can unilaterally add any terms and conditions as they like that is agressively 1-sided and unfair?
MAS allows them to do that is it?

Well, we now know we should NEVER HAVE BUSINESS DEALING with Citibank!

Wow! Friends, General Election is coming!
You should know who to vote if MAS and CASE under PAP is not going to do anything! :neglected:

It doesn't help by playing with words around.
what bank does is still within legal framework is just that they seldom use this trump card in singapore context.
By making a big hooha complaining about it won't help much either, we're all adults, move on in life, seek a better alternatives.
one of my friend's loan with citi outstanding is worth 8 digit and he's been told by citi, if you're unhappy you can leave.
at the end of day, you should know what's best for you.

BigBoy

01-04-15, 22:11

teddybear

01-04-15, 22:17

Luckily I am not affected, I am NOT a Citibank customer.

Luckily I ENDED all Citibank business dealing years ago BECAUSE I felt that their service is very lousy.....................

After this incident that Citibank UNILATERALLY change their LOAN spread to "+0.85%" despite stating clearly in their mortgage loan agreement that the interest rate to be charged is "SIBOR + 0.65%" (for example), I WILL NEVER BE A Citibank CUSTOMER AGAIN, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe we can get a collective deal from other local banks.

MortgageGuru

01-04-15, 22:33

teddybear

01-04-15, 22:59

Where in the agreement I shown that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement states that they have the right to change the spread unilaterally?
I did not see any clause stating that they have the right to change the spread UNILATERALLY!

Do all banks have the same T&C clause as Citibank?

borrowers can only blame itself for signing the loan with them when they took up the loan back then.
No point harping on now when it's stated clearly that they have the rights.

hopeful

02-04-15, 09:23

gavan

02-04-15, 09:56

I am one of the Citibank customer that is affected.
Yes, I want to go for collective loan with other bank
I created facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
Welcome all person to join me and any interested borrower to join.
Hope grouploan work as well as groupbuy.
Cheers!!!

amk

02-04-15, 09:57

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.

borrowers can only blame itself for signing the loan with them when they took up the loan back then.

I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.

amk

02-04-15, 10:15

just had a quick read on the hardwarezone thread. as expected many members there dun know what they're talking about. Some one even said the contract is for 3ys only. and clearly all of them didn't even read the T&C.

I dun have a hwz account. Can someone help to post the Citi T&C link in hwz, and point out to the very 1st line, i.e. 1.1 bank have the rights to revises rates from time to time. This line alone covers banks completely.

Citi is playing with words so it does not have to explicitly tell the world it can do whatever it wants anyway. (yes hopeful that's a bone thrown out now)

gavan

02-04-15, 10:42

I am one of the Citibank customer that is affected.
Yes, I want to go for collective loan with other bank
I created facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/668115326654609/

Welcome all to join me and any interested borrower to join.
Hope grouploan work as well as groupbuy.
Cheers!!!

teddybear

02-04-15, 21:17

@amk,
I can see the serverity of the situation!
I believe every bank in Singapore is watching Citibank's pre-cursor of raising the spread closely. I suppose they are thinking that if Citibank can get away with it, then they could also copy Citibank as well! Basically, almost every bank would like to do it to increase their profits BUT none dare to do it first, until Citibank now..................
That is why when the journalist ask the other banks insiders/officials etc, they are all supporting Citibank by saying they have the right to adjust the spread blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!!

All Singaporeans who own properties and having existing mortgage loans out there, better watch out! Don't think that it is Citibank and doesn't concern you, soon or later you will get hit as well if Citibank can get away with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is in charge of Monetary Authority of Singapore? Is it Minister of Finance, who is Tharman now?
May be your friend can write to him see whether he will act or not? :eagerness:

If no government body willing to act, I suppose we consumers have to ACT with our VOTE in coming General Election??????????? :gun4:

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.

I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.

MortgageGuru

02-04-15, 22:02

Thank you teddybear for digging out the details. very very illustrative.

I'm sorry but you are wrong here.
You still do not get it: all banks' T&C have rights that allow them to change all rates, whatever the main doc says.
The diff thus far is, only Citibank actually is doing it now.
This practice alone must be condemned. and the public must be educated that banks T&C indeed allow them to do whatever they want.
what teddybear is championing, and I agree, is to force MAS to impose ABS to stop such unfair terms.

"blame yourself for signing the loan" ? There is no option to customers today. At most you say "blame yourself for trusting Citibank".

You are a mortgage broker. You do represent Citi too, do you ? Imagine one day your client tell you "how come you sold me this fixed rate mortgage 2yrs ago now bank say it can change the rate now", and you say "blame yourself for signing the loan" ?

You did not see the severity of this situation. This is a precedence that should really be prominently flashed out and stopped.

The interest rate(s) on sums payable to the Bank including additional interest may be varied by the
Bank from time to time at its discretion after giving reasonable notice to the Borrower and shall
be payable both before and after judgement. Such interest is to be calculated and compounded
in accordance with the usual practice of the Bank from time to time. The Borrower agrees that
the Bank’s right to compound such interest shall continue notwithstanding that the relationship of
banker and customer may have ceased by a demand or otherwise until the date of payment (both
before and after judgement).

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.
its the same thing everywhere, every big company practise this as well.
simple entrance into fancy entertainment outlet is the same as well, we reserves the rights to deny entry as we deem so.
you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything.

MortgageGuru

02-04-15, 22:10

@amk,
I can see the serverity of the situation!
I believe every bank in Singapore is watching Citibank's pre-cursor of raising the spread closely. I suppose they are thinking that if Citibank can get away with it, then they could also copy Citibank as well! Basically, almost every bank would like to do it to increase their profits BUT none dare to do it first, until Citibank now..................
That is why when the journalist ask the other banks insiders/officials etc, they are all supporting Citibank by saying they have the right to adjust the spread blah blah blah!!!!!!!!!!!

All Singaporeans who own properties and having existing mortgage loans out there, better watch out! Don't think that it is Citibank and doesn't concern you, soon or later you will get hit as well if Citibank can get away with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is in charge of Monetary Authority of Singapore? Is it Minister of Finance, who is Tharman now?
May be your friend can write to him see whether he will act or not? :eagerness:

If no government body willing to act, I suppose we consumers have to ACT with our VOTE in coming General Election??????????? :gun4:

If you're thinking that citi is at fault and every other bank can follow likewise and consumer will be at the suffering end, you have a choice, you can don't borrow from anyone.
If you want to borrow from someone, you're at their mercy.
If you're not rich enough to be able to pay for your house and people are lending you money, you don't tell them that they're at fault for increasing the interest.

Same thing, if you rent out your house, if you think you want a higher rental than the current one, you can raise it but if your tenant does not accept it, you lose a tenant.
vice versa, do you think you bother if your tenant lodge a complaint that you want to increase the rental from $2000 to $4000? He have the power, if he wants to rent, he simply pay the rental, if not, seek elsewhere.
it doesn't matter how much is the increment, it's just simple business, buyer willing, seller willing, no people force you to take loan. You yourself wants to take up a loan because you want a house, at the end of day, you yourself can't afford to buy a house then don't buy it.
simple as that.

MortgageGuru

02-04-15, 22:14

In any case, what happens, happened.
Instead of grumbling around and protesting, think of what you can do to improve it.

teddybear

02-04-15, 22:15

Wah, such general overtly one-sided unfair clause that allows the bank the right to do anything single-sided unilaterally, that I think Singapore is the only so-called developed country where the monetary authority allows the bank to insert such clause in their so-called Terms & Conditions (that their clients don't even sign and agreed to) and then enforce them on their clients!
Asking their clients to accept such unfair treatment to the total disregard that the mortgage loan agreement (the actual agreement signed by both parties) clearly states "SIBOR + 0.70%" and then the bank can change the "0.70%" to any figure they like really makes a fool of Singaporeans! :pig:

It is time that Singaporeans wish up to such unfair treatment by bullying companies like these banks, and to think that Singapore only has their CPFTA only not too long ago, and it makes a mockery that no government agency even bothers to look into such clearly disregard of CPFTA!!!!!!!!!!!!

And you analogy doesn't even make sense! Don't understand what you mean by "you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything."???

We are talking about a contract, where almost every bank tried to insert the same aggressively 1-sided clause vaguely, and then point to the clause to say they have the right to do anything anyhow they like (based on their own interpretation)???

The interest rate(s) on sums payable to the Bank including additional interest may be varied by the
Bank from time to time at its discretion after giving reasonable notice to the Borrower and shall
be payable both before and after judgement. Such interest is to be calculated and compounded
in accordance with the usual practice of the Bank from time to time. The Borrower agrees that
the Bank’s right to compound such interest shall continue notwithstanding that the relationship of
banker and customer may have ceased by a demand or otherwise until the date of payment (both
before and after judgement).

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.
its the same thing everywhere, every big company practise this as well.
simple entrance into fancy entertainment outlet is the same as well, we reserves the rights to deny entry as we deem so.
you go into other people's premises, please don't deem yourself as having the rights of anything.

MortgageGuru

02-04-15, 22:24

teddybear

02-04-15, 22:25

You raised a very good example about property rental.

Imagine you are the landlord granting renting out the property (like the bank granting the loan), both of you sign a contract, and you only want a contract where you could insert a clause saying that "This tenancy is for 2 fixed years,...,.....the landlord reserves the absolute right to adjust the rental per month from time to time, depending on prevailing market conditions....."???? :pig:

And what choice you are talking about when all banks are resorting to bullying tactic and put the same clauses in the contract? Fair clauses? CPFTA for what? The banks loan contracts/T&Cs violates the following regulations in CPFTA:

* Taking advantage of a consumer by including in an agreement terms or conditions that are harsh, oppressive or excessively one-sided so as to be unconscionable.

If you're thinking that citi is at fault and every other bank can follow likewise and consumer will be at the suffering end, you have a choice, you can don't borrow from anyone.
If you want to borrow from someone, you're at their mercy.
If you're not rich enough to be able to pay for your house and people are lending you money, you don't tell them that they're at fault for increasing the interest.

Same thing, if you rent out your house, if you think you want a higher rental than the current one, you can raise it but if your tenant does not accept it, you lose a tenant.
vice versa, do you think you bother if your tenant lodge a complaint that you want to increase the rental from $2000 to $4000? He have the power, if he wants to rent, he simply pay the rental, if not, seek elsewhere.
it doesn't matter how much is the increment, it's just simple business, buyer willing, seller willing, no people force you to take loan. You yourself wants to take up a loan because you want a house, at the end of day, you yourself can't afford to buy a house then don't buy it.
simple as that.

teddybear

02-04-15, 22:29

MortgageGuru

02-04-15, 22:34

teddybear

02-04-15, 22:43

But actually, it is not because the bank's loan clients know about it, it is because the contract is written in such as way as to MISLEAD their clients, and so VAGUELY so as not raise to their clients attention, until the Citibank issue now then we knew about it! In all my life, I never knew that banks can unilaterally change the interest rate figure already agreed upon, because NO bank has started such precedence before, until Citibank now!

Let me challenge Citibank:
If they want to change the spread UNILATERALLY, then they should not mislead their clients, they should just write:

Effective Interest Rate:
Year 3 and thereafter: SIBOR + spread to be determined by the bank who has the absolute right to adjust from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions.

Don't try to write:
Year 3 and thereafter: SIBOR + 0.70%
to mislead people if they are going to change that "0.70%" to any value they like!

Like I've told you, if your tenant is willing to sign a contract like this with you, he have to bite the bullet then.
don't complain when you put pen to paper. What's the point of arguing a lost cause? Your vengeance is so deep, it won't help much.
already told you you can don't take up the loan with them, if anything, just blame yourself for not being rich enough that you have to borrow.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

teddybear

02-04-15, 22:52

Like I told you, I feel that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement (the main agreement signed by both parties) NEVER explicitly state that they have the right to change the spread!

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing, let's refer to the Citibank's loan agreement:

The contract contains the following (cut out unnecessary wordings which has no impact):
"
(d) Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate shall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate.
"

When I read the above, my interpretation of "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions" is that since Interest rate = 3mth Sibor + 0.7%, Citibank is just referring to the adjustment is for 3mth Sibor, because "0.7%" is a fixed figure. If they really want to change "0.7%", then the contract should write as:

"Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3mths Sibor + spread to be determined solely at the discretion of the bank and to be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions."

See, Citibank is just playing with words now and attempting to mislead, and what I said make more sense than what they tried to force you people to accept,..........
Unless they are saying that they are enforcing based on those small font clauses in their Terms & Conditions document, but heh, those cannot stand up to scrutiny because we never sign the T&C document, not to mention those clauses that are oppressively 1-sided!

Like I've told you, if your tenant is willing to sign a contract like this with you, he have to bite the bullet then.
don't complain when you put pen to paper. What's the point of arguing a lost cause? Your vengeance is so deep, it won't help much.
already told you you can don't take up the loan with them, if anything, just blame yourself for not being rich enough that you have to borrow.
If you can't afford it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

teddybear

02-04-15, 23:04

Note: Below argument borrowed from another website (ha ha ha!)

Like I told you, I feel that Citibank's mortgage loan agreement (the main agreement signed by both parties) NEVER explicitly state that they have the right to change the spread!

Let's not argue for the sake of arguing, let's refer to the Citibank's loan agreement:

The contract contains the following (cut out unnecessary wordings which has no impact):
"
(d) Contractual period 1 (for 1st year from date of disbursement) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%
Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3 mths Sibor + 0.7%

(e) The minimum effective interest rate shall be 0.8% p.a.. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The bank will not be giving advance notices to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rate.
"

When I read the above, my interpretation of "Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions" is that since Interest rate = 3mth Sibor + 0.7%, Citibank is just referring to the adjustment is for 3mth Sibor, because "0.7%" is a fixed figure. If they really want to change "0.7%", then the contract should write as:

"Contractual period 2 (Thereafter) - 3mths Sibor + spread to be determined solely at the discretion of the bank and to be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions."

See, Citibank is just playing with words now and attempting to mislead, and what I said make more sense than what they tried to force you people to accept,..........
Unless they are saying that they are enforcing based on those small font clauses in their Terms & Conditions document, but heh, those cannot stand up to scrutiny because we never sign the T&C document, not to mention those clauses that are oppressively 1-sided!

BigBoy

02-04-15, 23:35

http://singaporelegaladvice.com/unfair-contract-terms-act-ucta-in-singapore/

Contractual liability – Section 3 of UCTA

In the case of a consumer dealing with a business entity, if the transaction is entered into using the latter’s standard form (for instance, when you sign up with a telco on their standard contract), section 3 applies. This section disallows the business from using its standard contractual terms to

Exclude its own liability for breaches of terms;
Excluding or limiting its own liability for breaches of terms, and
Relying on a term to render a different kind of service from that which was reasonably expected of him, or not service at all,
unless the standard contractual term is reasonable. Once again, reasonableness rears its amorphous head!

Is Citibank term/action "reasonably"? I believe that is also implicitly in the reply from MAS on this issue.
Citibank did not explain, just says the term in the contract. Is this term "ünfair"

newbie11

03-04-15, 02:21

Hey teddy, did mas or case replied to you? I know many who might be keen to band together for a louder noise

MortgageGuru

03-04-15, 02:40

If you really think you have a case here, why not you serve a civil suit against citibank?
since you deem yourself to have a super strong case, I hope you does win the lawsuit against them and get a compensation payout.
Every citi client will be so proud of you.
You have a good strong call here, get more people down to hong lim park tomorrow and prove your case.

hopeful

03-04-15, 09:41

I will rally all Singaporean consumers to be aware of such unfair and oppressive clauses in mortgage loan contract, Citibank UNILATERALLY changing the spread by invoking those unfair oppressive clause, and that they should not VOTE FOR PAP if the MAS / CASE currently under them is NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT CONSUMERS LIKE US! Simple as that, understand????
.....

teddy, whats your skin in the game? u mentioned that you dont have dealings with citibank anymore.
perhaps are you afraid that citibank action will spread to other banks? you buy and hold ccr for so long, your ccr properties would be paid up already. what are you so afraid of?

let me remind you: you are so concerned about pollution in the west, yet when asked to take action, you say you didnt stay in the west. and you are not concerned that pollution in the west spreading to other parts in singapore (because human lungs in the west will act as filter?) or there is an invisible barrier that stops pollution in the west from spreading to clementi and so forth.

if banks all raise spreads, then your wish will come true isnt it: the weakholders in OCR cannot service loan. OCR crash ~40%.
additionally weakholders in CCR will have firesale, which you can scoop up. so why you make so much noise?
as an excuse for anti-PAP? but what about your wish of OCR crashing?

so whats your motivation?

as for your grandstanding: "I will rally all Singaporean consumers to be aware of such unfair and oppressive clauses[/COLOR][/B] in mortgage loan contract" . Can you use a few key words so I will google it everyday and look into top 10 pages worth of search results.

amk

03-04-15, 11:04

This above clearly stated that they have the rights and power to do so.
Your argument is invalid.
just because no bank exercise their rights to do so, it doesn't mean citi is in fault.

I find your position on this appalling. All the while we already said/knew banks have T&C that they can do whatever they want. You only knew that now ? It was never about "valid" or "legal".
It is about ethics, and fair practice. You make it sound like it is a matter of course. (To take a cynical tone aka hopeful: to be unethical is business, to be ethical is a favor. well maybe it is becoming a fact, but that cannot be your position.)
And please stop saying "you dun have to sign the doc". all docs have such terms, customer has no choice.

Look I know your business is to sell mortgage. However I know some mortgage brokers who are more sincere and honest, who openly admit that banks indeed can change all rates quoted, it's not exactly fair, but it is what it is in the market. Do you tell your customers that ? Do you tell them the Fixed Rate quoted by banks can be changed ? Do you tell them the FHR composition can be changed any time, to be, among others, re-benchmarked to something else ?

From the very beginning of this thread, you 1st disbelieved Citi is changing the spread. Now with the facts confirmed, you think this is business as usual. My other brokers confirmed with me the case immediately when I asked them. And all of them shared my friend's outrage and my sympathy.

Hey teddy, did mas or case replied to you? I know many who might be keen to band together for a louder noise
one nice broker as example.

... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason :) Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".

hopeful

03-04-15, 12:11

.....
... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason :) Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".
That was already mentioned in the news
"Mr Peng said all the terms and conditions have been carefully outlined and that interest-rate definitions are clearly stated.
He encouraged affected customers to contact the bank, adding that any decision they make regarding their loans will not be bound by any penalty or fees."

My 2cents:

There is a clause in the Citibank Main Contract.
"The Citibank Home Saver Terms and Conditions annexed hereto shall apply. In the event of any inconsistency between the terms herein and that set out in the Citibank Home Saver Terms and Conditions, the terms herein shall prevail."

What does that mean? it means The Main Contract will override the Annex if there is any inconsistency.
So Citibank cannot be relying on the catch-all clause in the T&C (the Annex) to change the spread because the Main Contract already specify the spread. Catch-all clause also no use if inconsistent with Main Contract.
Remember this: Main Contract will override the Annex if there is any inconsistency.

To change the spread, Citibank need to rely on the Main Contract, and not on the Annex.
The clause citibank are using is in 1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates.

Now there are 2 terms: "Interest rate" and "Effective Interest Rate" used in Clause 1(e)
Definition of "Effective Interest Rate" is 1 month SIBOR rate for the relevant Interest Period plus 0.65%

What then is the definition of interest rates?
The nearest definition comes to:
"The actual monthly payment shall be computed based on the Effective Interest Rate set out below and may vary depending on amongst other factors the prevailing interest rate, outstanding principal and remaining tenor of the Credit Facilities. The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate. Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan."

Do you see how the the last sentences in Clause 1(e) and the above paragraph are similar.
Clause 1(e): The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates.
Above paragraph: Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan.

Now do we have the definition of what is "Interest rate" ?
The case to be made is that "interest rate" quoted in Clause 1(e) is that it is the 1 month SIBOR rate and NOT the spread.
so clause 1(e) can read as
1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Interest rates/(1month SIBOR rate) are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the interest rates/(1month SIBOR rate).

If you demolish 1(e), there is less wriggle room for citibank to change spread.
Come to think of it, which is why perhaps they are relying on word games, like:
"Mr Peng Chun Hsien, Citibank Singapore's head of secured finance solutions, also stressed that the "current revision is only applicable to clients outside the lock-in period".
"Mr Peng told The Straits Times: "The word 'throughout' is a term the industry uses, and refers to the tenure and period that we are covering."
"Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon."

to AMK and the rest affected,
1) please check with your friend's contract are similar to mine, i also have citibank letter of offer :)
2) please ask your friend to ask the banker to point out which clause they are using to change spread. This is very important. Insist on finding out which clause. Take no shit for an answer.
3) remember, in any consistency, Main Contract overrides Annex (T&C) if there is such a clause in your friend's contract.

thats all for my 2cents :)

amk

03-04-15, 12:36

I dun have the contract. but from yours:

The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate.
it does not say this rate = sibor+spread. it merely says it changes with SIBOR. Citi is still playing with words. it comes to "interpretation" of common words.

hopeful

03-04-15, 12:54

again, there are 2 terms used "Effective interest rates" and "interest rates" used in contract.
"effective interest rates" =/= "interest rates"

from the para
"The actual monthly payment shall be computed based on the Effective Interest Rate set out below and may vary depending on amongst other factors the prevailing interest rate, outstanding principal and remaining tenor of the Credit Facilities. The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate. Please note that the Bank is not required to give advance notice of the SIBOR rate which are applicable to the Term Loan."

clause 1(d) already have formula for Effective Interest Rate
Effective Interest Rate = 1 month SIBOR rate for the relevant Interest Period plus 0.65%.

if they wanted to use clause 1(e) as basis for change:
it should have read as
1(e) The minimum Effective Interest Rate shall be 0.80% pa. Effective Interest rates are all subject to review and may be adjusted from time to time depending on prevailing market conditions. The Bank will not be giving advance notice to the Borrower for any changes in the Effective Interest Rates.

If the bank has used the above terms instead, then i think citibank has all the rights in the world. unfortunately it omits the word Effective.
What mortgagees are paying is the Effective Interest Rate, and not the Interest Rate. Dont mixed up the 2 terms.
and formulation of "effective interest rate" is in clause 1(d) (mentioned above)

once again, like a broken tape recorder, those affected please ask the bank(er) to point out which clause they invoke to change the spread.

MortgageGuru

03-04-15, 13:31

I find your position on this appalling. All the while we already said/knew banks have T&C that they can do whatever they want. You only knew that now ? It was never about "valid" or "legal".
It is about ethics, and fair practice. You make it sound like it is a matter of course. (To take a cynical tone aka hopeful: to be unethical is business, to be ethical is a favor. well maybe it is becoming a fact, but that cannot be your position.)
And please stop saying "you dun have to sign the doc". all docs have such terms, customer has no choice.

Look I know your business is to sell mortgage. However I know some mortgage brokers who are more sincere and honest, who openly admit that banks indeed can change all rates quoted, it's not exactly fair, but it is what it is in the market. Do you tell your customers that ? Do you tell them the Fixed Rate quoted by banks can be changed ? Do you tell them the FHR composition can be changed any time, to be, among others, re-benchmarked to something else ?

From the very beginning of this thread, you 1st disbelieved Citi is changing the spread. Now with the facts confirmed, you think this is business as usual. My other brokers confirmed with me the case immediately when I asked them. And all of them shared my friend's outrage and my sympathy.

one nice broker as example.

... and hopeful you are indeed one funny guy. yes sure, everything happens, happens for a reason :) Btw my friend is not getting anywhere with MAS. But Citi said it is "prepared to waive penalty charges if you wish to refinance with other banks".

I understand the anger among citi borrowers, instead of making the best out of it, why sulk and make a big hooha when you know nothings gonna change as all is done within their legal framework.
I admit, I'm shocked to hear that from citi at the start, eventually reality tells me to move on and solve the issue instead of start the blaming game.
I totally understand what you all feel as citi is the first to ever use this trump card thus far, it may seems unethical, but legally they still follow the law.

nothing in this world a sure thing as death.
When you borrow from someone, always expect yourself to be at their mercy.

amk

03-04-15, 13:41

"nothing in this world is sure, except death and TAX " :)

hopeful u have interesting point. I sms'ed my friend and asked him to read what you posted.

hopeful

03-04-15, 14:48

I understand the anger among citi borrowers, instead of making the best out of it, .....
.....

care to explain "making the best out of it" ?
i dont supposed having high tea at shangrila and laughing it off means making the best out of it?

MortgageGuru

03-04-15, 16:30

care to explain "making the best out of it" ?
i dont supposed having high tea at shangrila and laughing it off means making the best out of it?

Nope. I believe everyone here are old enough to know when problem comes up, we solve it instead of blaming. Creating a unrest here makes you all no difference from communist in the early days.

teddybear

03-04-15, 19:51

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

Nope. I believe everyone here are old enough to know when problem comes up, we solve it instead of blaming. Creating a unrest here makes you all no difference from communist in the early days.

MortgageGuru

03-04-15, 20:03

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

Your argument is still invalid eventually.
If you can't afford a house, don't buy it then.
In chinese saying... 打肿脸皮充胖子

gavan

03-04-15, 20:07

For sake of helpless citibank customer like me...

I would appreciated if anyone can help by joining my
facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/668115326654609/

And click share for more awareness.
Thank u very veriii much

teddybear

03-04-15, 20:16

Again, you show that you are beating around the bush, not something an honorable person will do......... Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

And you are are making assumption and insinuating me can't afford a house with your "if you can't afford a house...", something that only a scoundrel will do...... As far as I jolly know, I am sure I am much better to do than you do............... :cheerful:

Also, you have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled us?

Your argument is still invalid eventually.
If you can't afford a house, don't buy it then.
In chinese saying... 打肿脸皮充胖子

Strange that you mention "creating a unrest ... makes ... no difference from communist in the early days" out of no where here...

You are saying "only communists create unrest in the early days"?
Wow! That is over generalization isn't it?

And we sure know where the problems come from - No consumer protection and overtly aggressive and oppressively 1-sided terms dictated by the banks collectively!
And MAS and CASE who are supposed to protect consumers are not doing anything!

MortgageGuru

03-04-15, 20:51

Again, you show that you are beating around the bush, not something an honorable person will do......... Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

And you are are making assumption and insinuating me can't afford a house with your "if you can't afford a house...", something that only a scoundrel will do...... As far as I jolly know, I am sure I am much better to do than you do............... :cheerful:

Also, you have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled us?

What's with me beating around the bush?
Your opinion of me does not define who I am.
If you're much better to do than I am, I feel happy for you.
If you're much better to do than I am, I think you should not have any issue right now against citi because I have none.
If you want, we can always check it out with ABS. You're a adult, but behaving like a child crying over spoilt milk.
Solve the issue, not creating unrest.
If you so gung-ho, please go create banner and I'll pay for the banner upon receipt as long as you walk around in town and rally all the citi client to march along Istana with it, I'll cover all your expense incurred.
If not, just go to the right platform and express your anger as you're only doing nothing but stirring troubles.

sabian

03-04-15, 21:06

Vested interests.

teddybear

03-04-15, 22:01

You still refuse to admit that you are not beating around the bush?
Until now, you have REFUSED to answer 3 queries here (in response to what you posted previously):

1) You have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled and intentionally want to us?

2) Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

3) Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

Why being much better than you means should not have any issue with Citibank?
The way I see it is that Citibank is playing with words, and is oppressively trying to mislead their clients into believing they have the right to raise the spread unilaterally. There is clear violation of CPFTA, yet CASE and MAS are both not doing anything!

And most of us here know that you are a mortgage broker, why would you have issue with Citibank who pay you commissions?
Again, I ask you this question that you refused to answer me:
Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

I can clearly see that you have conflict of interest, or vested interests, to be biased and sides with Citibank here............

Why you have strong objection to me for raising unfairness by Citibank?
Why should you bothered which platform I go to or how I do it?
I don't think I need to do as you prescribed, not forgetting that you have conflicts of interests and vested interests to side with Citibank here (since they pay you commissions, not your clients and potential clients that you are trying to hook up here)....................

What's with me beating around the bush?
Your opinion of me does not define who I am.
If you're much better to do than I am, I feel happy for you.
If you're much better to do than I am, I think you should not have any issue right now against citi because I have none.
If you want, we can always check it out with ABS. You're a adult, but behaving like a child crying over spoilt milk.
Solve the issue, not creating unrest.
If you so gung-ho, please go create banner and I'll pay for the banner upon receipt as long as you walk around in town and rally all the citi client to march along Istana with it, I'll cover all your expense incurred.
If not, just go to the right platform and express your anger as you're only doing nothing but stirring troubles.

teddybear

03-04-15, 22:12

MortgageGuru

04-04-15, 01:06

You still refuse to admit that you are not beating around the bush?
Until now, you have REFUSED to answer 3 queries here (in response to what you posted previously):

1) You have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled and intentionally want to us?

2) Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

3) Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

Why being much better than you means should not have any issue with Citibank?
The way I see it is that Citibank is playing with words, and is oppressively trying to mislead their clients into believing they have the right to raise the spread unilaterally. There is clear violation of CPFTA, yet CASE and MAS are both not doing anything!

And most of us here know that you are a mortgage broker, why would you have issue with Citibank who pay you commissions?
Again, I ask you this question that you refused to answer me:
Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

I can clearly see that you have conflict of interest, or vested interests, to be biased and sides with Citibank here............

Why you have strong objection to me for raising unfairness by Citibank?
Why should you bothered which platform I go to or how I do it?
I don't think I need to do as you prescribed, not forgetting that you have conflicts of interests and vested interests to side with Citibank here (since they pay you commissions, not your clients and potential clients that you are trying to hook up here)....................

I don't wish to stood as low your level here.
if you wish to have a discussion privately I do not mind.
my contact I believe most people here have, I do not have to explain so much and be led into your vengeance against bank.

hopeful

04-04-15, 08:29

Nope. I believe everyone here are old enough to know when problem comes up, we solve it instead of blaming. Creating a unrest here makes you all no difference from communist in the early days.

ok, how do we solve it? whats the solution(s) ?

hopeful

04-04-15, 08:39

I never contact MAS or CASE because I am not affected party, NOT a Citibank client for a long time now, sick of their LOUSY service previously, so CUT all business dealings with Citibank........

Would appreciate those affected who had contacted MAS and CASE to let us know their replies. While I am not affected, I can still help to make some loud noise because I feel that such precedence once tolerated will have BIG IMPLICATIONS in future!

my BS detector blew a fuse. luckily the BS detector electronics are already hardened due to constant exposure to BS from employees. So i just need to replace the fuse.

if banks raise spread indiscriminately, wouldnt ocr crash much faster than due to the slow increase in sibor rates? and those weak ccr holders, why they would have firesale, which you can scoop up..
Wait, What? you mean you still need loan to buy CCR properties? i mean, your properties are fully paid up, you are not affected right?
or it is because nobody can afford to take mortgage to buy the properties you want to offload at the price you wanted?

time to replace the BS detector fuse.

onlooker

04-04-15, 09:26

@MortgageGuru, For the benefit of every one, could you please respond to the below query from @teddybear ?

"You have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled and intentionally want to us?"

I don't wish to stood as low your level here.
if you wish to have a discussion privately I do not mind.
my contact I believe most people here have, I do not have to explain so much and be led into your vengeance against bank.

teddybear

04-04-15, 11:35

Isn't you the one who stood so low as to mislead and cheat your clients and the public and forum members via:

1) Lying that 7.75% is the highest SIBOR rate in the past 10 years?

2) Not having the integrity and honesty to fulfil your fiduciary duty to protect your clients interest as a mortgage broker but instead siding with the banks (just because the banks pay you commissions and your are trying to protect your interests and hence the banks')?

3) Beating around the bush by making vague statements without replying to queries which are made in response to your statements/allegations in this forum?

This is a public forum, and it is only right that we debate on the issue such as Citibank increasing a fixed spread unilaterally publicly, and there is no need to hide in a clock and talk about discussing the issue privately. Only when you have something to hide then you would want to discuss a subject of public interest privately!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't wish to stood as low your level here.
if you wish to have a discussion privately I do not mind.
my contact I believe most people here have, I do not have to explain so much and be led into your vengeance against bank.

You still refuse to admit that you are not beating around the bush?
Until now, you have REFUSED to answer 3 queries here (in response to what you posted previously):

1) You have yet to clarify why the chart of SGD SIBOR I shown shows that highest SIBOR over past 10 years is only about 3.5% vs the 7.75% that you told us. Please clarify whether you have misled and intentionally want to us?

2) Please point out which of my argument "is still invalid eventually".......

3) Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

Why being much better than you means should not have any issue with Citibank?
The way I see it is that Citibank is playing with words, and is oppressively trying to mislead their clients into believing they have the right to raise the spread unilaterally. There is clear violation of CPFTA, yet CASE and MAS are both not doing anything!

And most of us here know that you are a mortgage broker, why would you have issue with Citibank who pay you commissions?
Again, I ask you this question that you refused to answer me:
Is your fudiciary duty as a mortgage broker towards your clients or towards the banks (who pay you commissions)?

I can clearly see that you have conflict of interest, or vested interests, to be biased and sides with Citibank here............

Why you have strong objection to me for raising unfairness by Citibank?
Why should you bothered which platform I go to or how I do it?
I don't think I need to do as you prescribed, not forgetting that you have conflicts of interests and vested interests to side with Citibank here (since they pay you commissions, not your clients and potential clients that you are trying to hook up here)....................

teddybear

04-04-15, 11:41

@hopeful,

What a BS detector you have, so full of BS by itself! :hopelessness:

Whether I need loan or not to buy property is not material here, and is a private issue for me to decide on, so can't diverge to you, ha ha ha!

The rest of your questions I have no idea. What do you think? Please share share........................

my BS detector blew a fuse. luckily the BS detector electronics are already hardened due to constant exposure to BS from employees. So i just need to replace the fuse.

if banks raise spread indiscriminately, wouldnt ocr crash much faster than due to the slow increase in sibor rates? and those weak ccr holders, why they would have firesale, which you can scoop up..
Wait, What? you mean you still need loan to buy CCR properties? i mean, your properties are fully paid up, you are not affected right?
or it is because nobody can afford to take mortgage to buy the properties you want to offload at the price you wanted?

time to replace the BS detector fuse.

MortgageGuru

04-04-15, 16:27

Isn't you the one who stood so low as to mislead and cheat your clients and the public and forum members via:

1) Lying that 7.75% is the highest SIBOR rate in the past 10 years?

2) Not having the integrity and honesty to fulfil your fiduciary duty to protect your clients interest as a mortgage broker but instead siding with the banks (just because the banks pay you commissions and your are trying to protect your interests and hence the banks')?

3) Beating around the bush by making vague statements without replying to queries which are made in response to your statements/allegations in this forum?

This is a public forum, and it is only right that we debate on the issue such as Citibank increasing a fixed spread unilaterally publicly, and there is no need to hide in a clock and talk about discussing the issue privately. Only when you have something to hide then you would want to discuss a subject of public interest privately!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The reason why I'd prefer to speak to you privately is for the peace of this forum.

SIBOR was at a all time high of 7.75%, but that was back in 1990s which I made a mistake of that not being in the past 10 years. I've no qualms admitting to my mistake at all.

Are you telling me that by telling my client that I'll fight for the SIBOR spread at 0.6 throughout for them, the rates won't change even if bank were to unilaterally raise the rates, I'm being responsible here?

I can only fight for the best benefit in the market, but I can't control how bank works, do you understand this? You're telling me that I as a broker can promise you what only the bank have control of, so broker is more powerful than the bank? Why not I setup a bank myself and be a lender instead?

Your whole argument is still invalid.

If a club doesn't grant you entrance, do you call the police and demand a answer from the club?
If a restaurant doesn't grant you entrance, do you call the police as well?
If you're not selected to be a Prime Minister because you do not have enough money, do you call the police as well?

If you're so vocal, why not you do a video similar to Amos Yee and circulate in the internet since you want your voices/campaign to be heard badly?

You're just citing fire here, instigating unrest.

Back to the topic,

If you got no money, don't borrow to gamble.
If you got no money, don't borrow to buy a house.
If you can't afford a house, a financial institution is there to help you out of goodwill and profit, you have your choice, don't borrow if you think their T&C is unfair to you.
If you choose to borrow, take it like a man and suck it up.

You're no different from a imbecile kid.

teddybear

04-04-15, 23:52

I am awed that you really have no idea what is "fiduciary duty to your clients"!
But then guess what, you have no such mentality to your clients because you have INTEGRITY issue, that explains it, and the fact that the banks pay you commissions, so you only side with the banks!

Now, given the fact that Citibank unilaterally change the spread with no regards to what had been agreed in the main contract agreement, and you are telling all of us to keep quiet because the banks have the right to do that because of some T&C small font clauses they have (which are obviously aggressively and oppressively one-sided as to be unconscionable), then it just shows that you have breached your fiduciary duty to your clients!

To fulfil your fiduciary duty, you need to:
1) Advise your clients that what Citibank did is WRONG!
2) Don't do mortgage business with Citibank in order to fulfil your fuduciary duty to your clients!

The reason why I'd prefer to speak to you privately is for the peace of this forum.

SIBOR was at a all time high of 7.75%, but that was back in 1990s which I made a mistake of that not being in the past 10 years. I've no qualms admitting to my mistake at all.

Are you telling me that by telling my client that I'll fight for the SIBOR spread at 0.6 throughout for them, the rates won't change even if bank were to unilaterally raise the rates, I'm being responsible here?

I can only fight for the best benefit in the market, but I can't control how bank works, do you understand this? You're telling me that I as a broker can promise you what only the bank have control of, so broker is more powerful than the bank? Why not I setup a bank myself and be a lender instead?

Your whole argument is still invalid.

If a club doesn't grant you entrance, do you call the police and demand a answer from the club?
If a restaurant doesn't grant you entrance, do you call the police as well?
If you're not selected to be a Prime Minister because you do not have enough money, do you call the police as well?

If you're so vocal, why not you do a video similar to Amos Yee and circulate in the internet since you want your voices/campaign to be heard badly?

You're just citing fire here, instigating unrest.

Back to the topic,

If you got no money, don't borrow to gamble.
If you got no money, don't borrow to buy a house.
If you can't afford a house, a financial institution is there to help you out of goodwill and profit, you have your choice, don't borrow if you think their T&C is unfair to you.
If you choose to borrow, take it like a man and suck it up.

You're no different from a imbecile kid.

MortgageGuru

05-04-15, 00:15

teddybear

05-04-15, 00:32

All banks have same T&Cs? Yes, but NONE DID WHAT Citibank DID! Simple as that!
So Citibank is all out to make use of the aggressively and oppressively one-sided unfair term that is unconscionable (which no bank dare to use until now) to take advantage of its clients!
Since you know of the above, and you are still siding with Citibank???? Wow! That really talks about your character lacking of integrity and lacking of professional ethic in NOT trying to fulfil your fuduciary duty to your clients!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :crushed:

Your behaviour just goes to show how childish and imbecile you are.
I don't bring client to citi in the first place as they don't offer the best rate.
I have no whatsoever commision either from citi, you're being prejudice in the first place.
I could've just kept my mouth shut but I can't stand your non-stop complaint when you are not even at the end of receiving end, your main purpose is just to stir shit.
If you have any outstanding loan, kindly go through your letter of offer and go to the fine print page, almost all banks have the same T&C allowing them to do what citi done.
enough of your nonsense, I'm gonna stop replying to you and stood to your level, once again, imbecile childish behaviour of an adult, keyboard warrior.

MortgageGuru

05-04-15, 17:42

Your argument is the same throughout.
how many times must I tell you that they have the rights and by bring the first to use this power of theirs, it doesn't mean they are at fault.
Jay walking is also illegal, why didn't I see you go around catching people jaywalk?

Why don't you make a complaint against MAS as well?
I have full cash and I wants to buy a car using cash completely but they're charging me higher else I have to take up a loan in order not for them to charge me at a premium price. Why don't you bring this issue up?

There's so many problem in this world, why do you have to insist on finding one that's doing it in the legal framework?
I'd rather you go do charity on a Sunday than burying yourself in hatred here.
It gets nowhere eventually, is not like citi make a unreasonable hike, at the end of day, just refinance or pay off your loan then.
I know you're not one of the affected client, then please don't affect others.
Citi only increase for client who are out of lock-in period, which I find it ridiculous too because being tied down to their loan borrowers are already paying 0.8% above for their spread so it doesn't make much sense for them to say it only affect people who are out of lock-in.
I disagree their actions too, but we have to deal with it instead of starting the blame game.

teddybear

05-04-15, 19:01

Citibank has the right to change the loan interest spread despite the term NOT BEING clearly written in black and white in the Mortgage loan Main Contract?
Oh really? They have the right under the Consumer Protection and Fair Trading Act with that aggressive and oppressively one-sided term as to be unconscionable?

And who are you to dictate which cause I like to take up? What has it to do with you that you are so work up?
And why your reply must beat around the bush and drag in so many thing that has nothing to do with Citibank UNILATERALLY and UNFAIRLY hike the spread of the interest rate for their mortgage loan?

Anyway, I just like to take up the cause to raise the awareness to all Singaporeans and even to all people in the World that Citibank has been unreasonable and UNFAIR and uses that small font clause to force aggressive and oppressively one-sided term as to be unconscionable onto their customers! This is NOT just an UNREASONABLE HIKE, it is worst than that! I just like to take up this cause, especially when MAS and CASE seem CAN'T be bothered to do anything, so why you are bothered by it? Do you get better commissions from Citibank (than other banks) that is why you so work up and have to keep defending Citibank??????

I am NOT like you! I am not affected by Citibank UNILATERALLY hiking spread, but I feel deeply for those badly affected by Citibank (especially those who can't refinance due to TDSR)! In contrast, you are still defending Citibank that they have the right to hike loan interest spread?

And kindly tell us, based on your statement:

I disagree their actions too, but we have to deal with it instead of starting the blame game.
(1) What do you suggest the actions we can take to deal with Citibank for contradicting CPFTA when CASE and MAS is not going to do anything?????
(2) Why you say I am starting blame game when it is true that there are already deep disgust against Citibank by those people affected and many had been complaining to newspapers, CASE and MAS? Is it my fault that Citibank getting blamed for being UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE?????? :im-a-gonna-get-u:

Again, your response to my post just proved that you have NO integrity and you don't walk the talk! Didn't you say in your another earlier post that you will (to quote your words): "I'm gonna stop replying to you"?

Your argument is the same throughout.
how many times must I tell you that they have the rights and by bring the first to use this power of theirs, it doesn't mean they are at fault.
Jay walking is also illegal, why didn't I see you go around catching people jaywalk?

Why don't you make a complaint against MAS as well?
I have full cash and I wants to buy a car using cash completely but they're charging me higher else I have to take up a loan in order not for them to charge me at a premium price. Why don't you bring this issue up?

There's so many problem in this world, why do you have to insist on finding one that's doing it in the legal framework?
I'd rather you go do charity on a Sunday than burying yourself in hatred here.
It gets nowhere eventually, is not like citi make a unreasonable hike, at the end of day, just refinance or pay off your loan then.
I know you're not one of the affected client, then please don't affect others.
Citi only increase for client who are out of lock-in period, which I find it ridiculous too because being tied down to their loan borrowers are already paying 0.8% above for their spread so it doesn't make much sense for them to say it only affect people who are out of lock-in.
I disagree their actions too, but we have to deal with it instead of starting the blame game.

All banks have same T&Cs? Yes, but NONE DID WHAT Citibank DID! Simple as that!
So Citibank is all out to make use of the aggressively and oppressively one-sided unfair term that is unconscionable (which no bank dare to use until now) to take advantage of its clients!
Since you know of the above, and you are still siding with Citibank???? Wow! That really talks about your character lacking of integrity and lacking of professional ethic in NOT trying to fulfil your fuduciary duty to your clients!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :crushed:

Your behaviour just goes to show how childish and imbecile you are.
I don't bring client to citi in the first place as they don't offer the best rate.
I have no whatsoever commision either from citi, you're being prejudice in the first place.
I could've just kept my mouth shut but I can't stand your non-stop complaint when you are not even at the end of receiving end, your main purpose is just to stir shit.
If you have any outstanding loan, kindly go through your letter of offer and go to the fine print page, almost all banks have the same T&C allowing them to do what citi done.
enough of your nonsense, I'm gonna stop replying to you and stood to your level, once again, imbecile childish behaviour of an adult, keyboard warrior.

Arcachon

05-04-15, 21:20

Do MAS print money ?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11103032_10152782603968683_1490709175790594170_n.jpg?oh=43e04aa64a9fc6913186f70b7a6f9e15&oe=55B4DAFD&__gda__=1437112216_4bc5c29c96ba7365c2eb21a3d03298a6

Arcachon

05-04-15, 21:24

http://mystocksinvesting.com/singapore-savings-bonds-ssb/singapore-savings-bonds-ssb-for-retail-investors/

Arcachon

05-04-15, 21:35

http://mystocksinvesting.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SSB1.png

teddybear

05-04-15, 21:44

Singapore Savings Bonds is a great product for the laymen but will causes Fixed Deposit rates to be inflated, and in turn inflat SIBOR rates!

OCR property prices going to crash due to hike in SIBOR! :ashamed1:

Do MAS print money ?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11103032_10152782603968683_1490709175790594170_n.jpg?oh=43e04aa64a9fc6913186f70b7a6f9e15&oe=55B4DAFD&__gda__=1437112216_4bc5c29c96ba7365c2eb21a3d03298a6

Arcachon

05-04-15, 22:28

What I think is when you start to print money, money start to lost it value and property start to rise again.

Interest rate is only one of the components for property price going up or down.

That is my layman point of view.

I never believe in paper money, electronic money is even worst.

If Bank can loan me money to buy property, I will still buy.

I print paper, you give me money for exchange.

Or I go computer type in a number and you give me money in exchange.

Arcachon

05-04-15, 22:40

http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php/23570-Asian-Infrastructure-Investment-Bank-(AIIB)

When interest rate go up, inflation up or down.

sabian

05-04-15, 23:12

... and guess who has been shepherding the flock towards FHR pegged home loans?

teddybear

05-04-15, 23:45

For people who are contemplating to take up FHR loans, they have to be careful because Singapore Savings Bonds is now a game changer and will obviously push up FHR rate (hence FHR historical rate is no long applicable)!

... and guess who has been shepherding the flock towards FHR pegged home loans?

Arcachon

05-04-15, 23:45

http://www.mortgagewise.sg/dbs-increase-spread-for-fhr-home-loans/

Fixed Deposit Home Rate

teddybear

05-04-15, 23:51

For those affected Citibank customers like you, you may want to withhold refinancing first and try fighting Citibank to NOT renege on the agreed contract and take back the hiking of the spread because:

1) I don't believe Citibank has right to hike the spread. You may want Citibank to point out which clause in your Mortgage Loan Contract they uses to justify to hike the spread.

2) Now if Citibank has no right to hike the spread, and you refinance, you are not only letting Citibank off the hook but you loses the low spread that Citibank promised you previously (which could be the only reason you signed up Citibank mortgage loan)............

3) I believe you all should push MAS and CASE for outright declaration of their stands (rather than to allow them to shrunk it off as though Citibank hiking spread is reasonable and they can't do anything about it).

For sake of helpless citibank customer like me...

I would appreciated if anyone can help by joining my
facebook group "Singapore home grouploan"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/668115326654609/

And click share for more awareness.
Thank u very veriii much

hopeful

06-04-15, 09:42

hopeful

06-04-15, 09:45

......
1) I don't believe Citibank has right to hike the spread. You may want Citibank to point out which clause in your Mortgage Loan Contract they uses to justify to hike the spread.
.....

Wow, teddy, you so clever to think about this. Thanks for pointing this out. I never thought about this until you pointed this out.

gavan

06-04-15, 09:49

For those affected Citibank customers like you, you may want to withhold refinancing first and try fighting Citibank to NOT renege on the agreed contract and take back the hiking of the spread because:

1) I don't believe Citibank has right to hike the spread. You may want Citibank to point out which clause in your Mortgage Loan Contract they uses to justify to hike the spread.

2) Now if Citibank has no right to hike the spread, and you refinance, you are not only letting Citibank off the hook but you loses the low spread that Citibank promised you previously (which could be the only reason you signed up Citibank mortgage loan)............

3) I believe you all should push MAS and CASE for outright declaration of their stands (rather than to allow them to shrunk it off as though Citibank hiking spread is reasonable and they can't do anything about it).

To do this, first I must gather enough customers like me.. fight together!!
Unfortunately, I do not see such person joining my group.Very quiet and pathetic .... :-((

hopeful

06-04-15, 10:00

To do this, first I must gather enough customers like me.. fight together!!
Unfortunately, I do not see such person joining my group.Very quiet and pathetic .... :-((

choose 1 or more applicable
1) post #64 (the concept of freerider)
2) you have no street creds
3) your proposition sounds ridiculous to even the affected citibank customers
4) who wants to waste time and $ joining a losing team.
5) affected citibank customers are nato

amk

15-04-15, 17:38

hopeful

15-04-15, 18:53

an update on this story.
to hopeful: according to my friend, yes, Citi insists that "interest rate subjected to change" is the one that allows them to change the spread. I dun know if he will use your argument to play with words with them. but he is already doing refinance now so he doesn't care much now.
.....

It is a pity. personally i think citibank has a rather weak case (not that i am a legal eagle). since mortgagee is paying "effective interest rate" rather than "interest rate" and formula for "effective interest rate" is already well defined as 1 month SIBOR + 0.65%.
And what is 0.65%? Is it "Interest rate"? That is highly questionable.
as mentioned earlier, the only definition of "interest rate" in LOI is:
"The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate".
so 0.65% is not the "interest rate".
SIBOR rate is the "interest rate" and are subject to change (ie subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate), not the 0.65%.

Anyway, the outcome is anticipated. A lot of free-riders (i admit i am one) depending on a few person efforts. The few will think "Why should i fight so hard so that the many others can enjoy? If I suffer, other people also suffer".

....
Btw I'm actually quite surprised no ST Forum articles on this subject appeared. I am sure many ppl wrote to Forum. If Today can publish, why not Straits Times ?
ST has more gravitas. Today is quite light weight, "gossip" column like the TNP, nobody influenced by Today/TNP.

DC33_2008

16-04-15, 09:45

I happen to read this article. Not sure if it was uploaded by somebody earlier.

Borrowers upset over hike in margin for Sibor loans

Posted on 29 Mar 2015

BY RACHAEL BOON

Straits Times

MANY home buyers with loans pegged to the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate (Sibor) have been hit with higher repayments following the Sibor's increase this year.

That is to be expected, but some Citibank customers have also found that the margin or spread - the added percentage banks tack on to the Sibor - has also moved up.

They were informed earlier this month that the spread on their Sibor-pegged loans would increase to 0.85 per cent from the promotional rate they had signed up with. The change takes effect from April 1.

Citibank said the spreads range from 0.6 to 0.8 per cent for customers who took up loans in late 2010 and in 2011.

One customer said he has been on a three-month Sibor loan since 2011 under a two-year lock-in package. His spread has risen from 0.7 per cent to 0.85 per cent.

However, Citibank said raising the spread has affected only a small number of people.

Mr Peng Chun Hsien, Citibank Singapore's head of secured finance solutions, also stressed that the "current revision is only applicable to clients outside the lock-in period".

Another customer, a Mr Lee, said he has been on a one-month Sibor home loan since 2011.

He told The Straits Times his spread has risen from 0.65 to 0.85 per cent but he had thought the spread would stay at 0.65 per cent throughout the loan.

Mr Peng told The Straits Times: "The word 'throughout' is a term the industry uses, and refers to the tenure and period that we are covering."

He added that affected customers had been given sufficient notice so that the process is transparent and they can opt to refinance their loans. Mr Peng noted that the overall rate is still fairly competitive.

Mr Keff Hui, a broker at Mortgage Supermart Singapore, noted that an 0.85 per cent spread used to be the market rate but some banks had lowered it to attract customers.

Another client on a one-month Sibor said: "Sibor is already variable and has gone up by 100 per cent year on year. How can the spread be variable too?"

Finance industry experts say reviewing spreads is standard bank practice, but in practice, changing the spread during the loan period is uncommon.

The Straits Times understands that banks such as United Overseas Bank and OCBC Bank have not increased the spreads. A DBS Bank spokesman said DBS and POSB have not varied spreads while under an existing agreement with customers. He said an 0.85 per cent spread used to be the market rate but some banks have lowered it to attract customers.

Customer Mr Lee said: "I will have to pay $200 to $300 more a month, but the amount is not significant. It's about how the bank can do this to customers."

Mr Seah Seng Choon, executive director of the Consumers Association of Singapore, said: "We are of the view that the banks should justify such rate changes clearly to the affected consumers. Such changes will not be fair to consumers if there is no justification to do so."

Citibank said it undertook "careful consideration of factors including prevailing market conditions" before making the move.

The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) said it does not regulate the setting of interest rates but the banks must provide clear and relevant information on products and services, said a spokesman, adding that MAS has asked Citibank to review the customer feedback received.

Mr Peng said all the terms and conditions have been carefully outlined and that interest-rate definitions are clearly stated.

He encouraged affected customers to contact the bank, adding that any decision they make regarding their loans will not be bound by any penalty or fees.

It is a pity. personally i think citibank has a rather weak case (not that i am a legal eagle). since mortgagee is paying "effective interest rate" rather than "interest rate" and formula for "effective interest rate" is already well defined as 1 month SIBOR + 0.65%.
And what is 0.65%? Is it "Interest rate"? That is highly questionable.
as mentioned earlier, the only definition of "interest rate" in LOI is:
"The interest rate quoted to you is benchmarked against the Singapore Interbank Offered Rate ("SIBOR") and is accordingly subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate".
so 0.65% is not the "interest rate".
SIBOR rate is the "interest rate" and are subject to change (ie subject to any fluctuations in SIBOR rate), not the 0.65%.

Anyway, the outcome is anticipated. A lot of free-riders (i admit i am one) depending on a few person efforts. The few will think "Why should i fight so hard so that the many others can enjoy? If I suffer, other people also suffer".

ST has more gravitas. Today is quite light weight, "gossip" column like the TNP, nobody influenced by Today/TNP.

amk

16-04-15, 11:04

...Mr Peng said all the terms and conditions have been carefully outlined and that interest-rate definitions are clearly stated.

if you look at what hopeful posted right above, Mr Peng's argument is weak, and is pushing the limits of interpretation. This is just despicable.
look at the posted doc here http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/breaking-banks-changing-terms-existing-property-loan-4984471.html , the "Thereafter" spread is clearly a fixed number.

If Citi insist he never meant to sell it as throughout spread, then Citi would have been doing a deliberate and intentional mis-selling in 2011. That sounds very illegal to me.

(It's a different matter if Citi said, "at the time we did intend to sell it as throughout, but today business change, and I INVOKE MY CATCHALL CLAUSE to rescind it". For that we are back to the real issue why banks are allowed to have such clauses.)

As hopeful pointed out, Citi clearly try not to say " under T&C I can change anyway", but instead say "the main contract already allows me to change, you never read your problem". never mind pushing the limit of word playing game.

hopeful, my friend is not as cynical as you think. he is not arguing with Citi anymore because he is afraid he would be blacklisted by the bank as he has other business with Citi. Since he can refinance out, he said just move on.

To me MAS is the party that should take on Citi. MAS has all the details, and MAS is not afraid of "offending" a bank on *consumer loans*. This is why I urge every one to write to MAS directly. No need to be a freerider as it is of no cost to you.

teddybear

16-04-15, 12:22

Agreed that what hopeful posted is right.

Still, after pointing out all these, and since people already wrote to MAS and CASE (and even journalists have interviewed them), BUT yet MAS and CASE don't interfere, what can consumers do????? :disgust:

if you look at what hopeful posted right above, Mr Peng's argument is weak, and is pushing the limits of interpretation. This is just despicable.
look at the posted doc here http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/breaking-banks-changing-terms-existing-property-loan-4984471.html , the "Thereafter" spread is clearly a fixed number.

If Citi insist he never meant to sell it as throughout spread, then Citi would have been doing a deliberate and intentional mis-selling in 2011. That sounds very illegal to me.

(It's a different matter if Citi said, "at the time we did intend to sell it as throughout, but today business change, and I INVOKE MY CATCHALL CLAUSE to rescind it". For that we are back to the real issue why banks are allowed to have such clauses.)

As hopeful pointed out, Citi clearly try not to say " under T&C I can change anyway", but instead say "the main contract already allows me to change, you never read your problem". never mind pushing the limit of word playing game.

hopeful, my friend is not as cynical as you think. he is not arguing with Citi anymore because he is afraid he would be blacklisted by the bank as he has other business with Citi. Since he can refinance out, he said just move on.

To me MAS is the party that should take on Citi. MAS has all the details, and MAS is not afraid of "offending" a bank on *consumer loans*. This is why I urge every one to write to MAS directly. No need to be a freerider as it is of no cost to you.

teddybear

16-04-15, 13:08

Who else here affect by Citibank?
The rule of the game is to get an OFFICIAL reply from Citibank (in black and white) on which clause they specifically use to change the spread (don't take verbal reply)!
Then, bring this up with MAS and CASE with Citibank's official reply letter, cite "deliberate and intentional mis-selling in 2011"?

if you look at what hopeful posted right above, Mr Peng's argument is weak, and is pushing the limits of interpretation. This is just despicable.
look at the posted doc here http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/eat-drink-man-woman-16/breaking-banks-changing-terms-existing-property-loan-4984471.html , the "Thereafter" spread is clearly a fixed number.

If Citi insist he never meant to sell it as throughout spread, then Citi would have been doing a deliberate and intentional mis-selling in 2011. That sounds very illegal to me.

(It's a different matter if Citi said, "at the time we did intend to sell it as throughout, but today business change, and I INVOKE MY CATCHALL CLAUSE to rescind it". For that we are back to the real issue why banks are allowed to have such clauses.)

As hopeful pointed out, Citi clearly try not to say " under T&C I can change anyway", but instead say "the main contract already allows me to change, you never read your problem". never mind pushing the limit of word playing game.

hopeful, my friend is not as cynical as you think. he is not arguing with Citi anymore because he is afraid he would be blacklisted by the bank as he has other business with Citi. Since he can refinance out, he said just move on.

To me MAS is the party that should take on Citi. MAS has all the details, and MAS is not afraid of "offending" a bank on *consumer loans*. This is why I urge every one to write to MAS directly. No need to be a freerider as it is of no cost to you.

amk

16-04-15, 14:32

The rule of the game is to get an OFFICIAL reply from Citibank (in black and white) on which clause they specifically use to change the spread (don't take verbal reply)!

my friend got a letter by post telling him it is that clause ("interest rate subjected to change"). it's very official.

teddybear

16-04-15, 14:58

So that letter will be very useful to pursue further, but too bad he is not pursuing anymore........... :grief:

As hopeful said, and I agreed, that fixed figure say "0.60%" cannot be the "interest rate" that they referred to that they can change, since SIBOR is the actual interest rate that can change, so if they insist that that particular clause refers to "0.60%" which they can change rather than SIBOR (which almost all of us will interpret as such), then it is obviously a very weak argument. A fixed spread is a fixed margin, their profit margin, it is not an "interest rate"! Citibank want to bullshit who??????? :gun4:

my friend got a letter by post telling him it is that clause ("interest rate subjected to change"). it's very official.

DC33_2008

16-04-15, 17:32

Banks are like legalised loan sharks. They are just looking at the bottom line. I am glad that I am not a client of the Bank that never sleeps. MAS has really got to review this incident. We should boycott it. It may not be a bad idea to rally at Hong Lim Park.
So that letter will be very useful to pursue further, but too bad he is not pursuing anymore........... :grief:

As hopeful said, and I agreed, that fixed figure say "0.60%" cannot be the "interest rate" that they referred to that they can change, since SIBOR is the actual interest rate that can change, so if they insist that that particular clause refers to "0.60%" which they can change rather than SIBOR (which almost all of us will interpret as such), then it is obviously a very weak argument. A fixed spread is a fixed margin, their profit margin, it is not an "interest rate"! Citibank want to bullshit who??????? :gun4:

TABee

17-04-15, 10:52

My rant...

Yes! Banks/Finance Houses are legalised 'loan sharks'! But they and the finance houses are the more prudent folks to borrow from as they are watched by Big Brother MAS.

Due to the history and right hand take in cash (0.35%-0.50% savings a/c or current account interest rates), left hand lend to those in need (1.6%-5% p.a.), they make a good spread. That will cover infrastructure, operating costs, etc. See how much the CEOs of the local banks make?

What is your view of SIBOR now? It has just been falling past 2 days at least. I was just about to fix a rate but realised the Ts & Cs of my agreement require 3 mths notice and there is a processing fee. Still contemplating and watching SIBOR and world economics.

What is the fine print on the loan agreements? They are drafted by in house legals and even vetted by international law firms.

Who are the folks running the loan shops? Same as you and I, humans out to make a living and their success for the year is measured by the returns from the products that they represent/sell.

Generally, their KPI is 10%-15% above the previous year's performance.

Are they great minds? Not exactly but they do have the network and information to place bets in 3Q and start to crack their brains and discuss the approach for the following year. The strategy and business plans are planned in 3Q/4Q in the preceding year to be rolled out 1Q/2Q in the following year and tweaked as performance is monitored weekly/monthly/quarterly.

Can we beat them? Only if you are very active and savvy with CASH to grab the opportunity when it appears. Just like buying a house at a point before prices go up and selling before prices fall. Cash is KING. We need to be active to move X% of funds into liquid investments. Y% into less liquid investments and Z% into non-liquid investments. Perhaps V% is into luxuries like expensive meals, treats, car and holidays?

I am just an average Joe....

...Ranting