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Yuki
03-10-14, 19:03
What is your projection of the sibor rates for the next 5 years. And why?

pmet
03-10-14, 20:41
+0.25% for the first few times due to FED's conservative stance. By end of 2016, we should be seeing close to 2%. Should reach at least 3% in 2018. By 2020 it should be close to 5%.

US unemployment is all time low now and real inflation rate is building up. Not sure if we should be happy or worry.

Cos for a $1m loan, the monthly installment will more than double if interest rates move to 5%.

Arcachon
03-10-14, 22:54
“Never ask anyone for their opinion, forecast, or recommendation. Just ask them what they have – or don’t have – in their portfolio.”

4. We can’t put all false predictors in jail.
“I find it profoundly unethical to talk without doing, without exposure to harm, without having one’s skin in the game, without having something at risk.”
We all like to listen to the so-called experts making predictions about the property market – the media love it; the audience love it. These ‘experts’ and their predictions are fragile because they are exposed to prediction errors. Honestly, who can tell what is going to happen in the future?
Below are the media predictions and the reality of the property market in the 2000s and 1990s, extracted from No B.S. Guide to Property Investment.
predictions
But they don’t have to pay a price for their mistakes. In fact, in our history no one has ever been convicted by law because their projection figures or forecast trends are far from reality. No one has ever paid a price for a prediction error.
We can’t stop people from asking for predictions. We can’t stop experts from making false predictions. But we can at least request the predictors to eat their own cooking and have their skin in the game.
“Never ask anyone for their opinion, forecast, or recommendation. Just ask them what they have – or don’t have – in their portfolio.”

http://propertysoul.com/

indomie
03-10-14, 22:54
+0.25% for the first few times due to FED's conservative stance. By end of 2016, we should be seeing close to 2%. Should reach at least 3% in 2018. By 2020 it should be close to 5%.

US unemployment is all time low now and real inflation rate is building up. Not sure if we should be happy or worry.

Cos for a $1m loan, the monthly installment will more than double if interest rates move to 5%.
Great and Rupiah interest rate would be 20% at least.

teddybear
03-10-14, 22:55
5%? That is the "old norm" lah!
The Fed already said : They target only 3.5% in next few years!


+0.25% for the first few times due to FED's conservative stance. By end of 2016, we should be seeing close to 2%. Should reach at least 3% in 2018. By 2020 it should be close to 5%.

US unemployment is all time low now and real inflation rate is building up. Not sure if we should be happy or worry.

Cos for a $1m loan, the monthly installment will more than double if interest rates move to 5%.

pmet
03-10-14, 23:42
Great and Rupiah interest rate would be 20% at least.

...and thus killing their own economy as a result? Indo sets their own interest rates and I don't think they will shoot themselves in the foot. What was Indo's rates in 2005?

pmet
03-10-14, 23:45
5%? That is the "old norm" lah!
The Fed already said : They target only 3.5% in next few years!

Nah! FED uses what they call "forward guidance" which changes as economy changes. The estimate of 3.5% is based on 4% growth rate in the last quarter. It should get better (and higher) unless another Leman...

lajia
03-10-14, 23:47
if what u say turn true, we might need many world banks to bail out US treasury.....:)


+0.25% for the first few times due to FED's conservative stance. By end of 2016, we should be seeing close to 2%. Should reach at least 3% in 2018. By 2020 it should be close to 5%.

US unemployment is all time low now and real inflation rate is building up. Not sure if we should be happy or worry.

Cos for a $1m loan, the monthly installment will more than double if interest rates move to 5%.

pmet
03-10-14, 23:49
if what u say turn true, we might need many world banks to bail out US treasury.....:)

You forgot the FED printed 4 trillion USD? Think they could use some creative accounting there!

teddybear
04-10-14, 01:12
Based on what you said, I would dump all bonds, T-bills, all REITs etc now! Bonds and REITs and T-bills will suffer heavily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

US Govt will also need to pay huge interests through their noses because they still need money to run due to budget deficit by issuing T-bills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last time I heard, 3.75% is Fed's new norm or new long-term equilibrium rate to avoid paying historical norm of 5.5% interest!
See below for Feds guidance:

"The new Fed forecasts suggest that at the end of 2016 the U.S. economy will be at full employment, with inflation slightly below 2%. Despite that robust outlook, the Fed's projected median fed funds rate for the end of 2016 is just 2.85%, nearly 1% below its stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%. Fed Chair Janet Yellen attributed this to the "lingering effects" of the global financial crisis."


Nah! FED uses what they call "forward guidance" which changes as economy changes. The estimate of 3.5% is based on 4% growth rate in the last quarter. It should get better (and higher) unless another Leman...

Allthepies
05-10-14, 09:15
Just follow DBS... they know what they are doing...

teddybear
05-10-14, 14:21
Is DBS the bank last year (or early this year?) that offered 1.88% fixed rate for 10 years?


Just follow DBS... they know what they are doing...

Allthepies
05-10-14, 23:52
Is DBS the bank last year (or early this year?) that offered 1.88% fixed rate for 10 years?

They offered 10years rate below 2.6% for HDB loan...

1.88% is for private for 5 years if im not mistaken. ..

They must know something we dont.

Allthepies
05-10-14, 23:54
Think i will go floating at least for the next 5 years...

teddybear
06-10-14, 00:11
My understanding is that they are confident that:
1) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 1.88% within 5 years or until 2019...........
2) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 2.50% within 10 years or until 2024..........
SIBOR is set by numerous participating banks, of which DBS is 1 of them! Obviously they will know SIBOR rate trend and direction and estimated quantum in the future much better than we do!

Given that now we know that Fed's long-run (long-term norm) equilibrium rate is 3.75% now (and the old norm was 5.5%), we can expect similar "haircut" to long-run SIBOR rate now vs many years ago!



They offered 10years rate below 2.6% for HDB loan...

1.88% is for private for 5 years if im not mistaken. ..

They must know something we dont.

Yuki
06-10-14, 12:58
My understanding is that they are confident that:
1) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 1.88% within 5 years or until 2019...........
2) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 2.50% within 10 years or until 2024..........
SIBOR is set by numerous participating banks, of which DBS is 1 of them! Obviously they will know SIBOR rate trend and direction and estimated quantum in the future much better than we do!

Given that now we know that Fed's long-run (long-term norm) equilibrium rate is 3.75% now (and the old norm was 5.5%), we can expect similar "haircut" to long-run SIBOR rate now vs many years ago!
That's a good reference. Since banks not be so stupid to make a loss.

What do you mean by haircut to long run sibor rate?

teddybear
06-10-14, 16:36
"haircut" is a term MAS like to use, as can be seen in their TDSR directives on how to compute TDSR, like your foreign currency and assets' values needs a haircut of 70% when computing your TDSR (vs only 30% haircut of your S$ currency and assets' values)........ :highly_amused:

I must say, they are dead wrong in their directives!
Going forward, foreign currency and assets like US$ and US stocks are going appreciate much faster and higher than S$ currency and assets! They should mandate haircut of 70% to S$ currency and assets' values and 30% for US$ and US stocks instead! :tongue-new:


That's a good reference. Since banks not be so stupid to make a loss.

What do you mean by haircut to long run sibor rate?


My understanding is that they are confident that:
1) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 1.88% within 5 years or until 2019...........
2) SIBOR+1% will not exceed 2.50% within 10 years or until 2024..........
SIBOR is set by numerous participating banks, of which DBS is 1 of them! Obviously they will know SIBOR rate trend and direction and estimated quantum in the future much better than we do!

Given that now we know that Fed's long-run (long-term norm) equilibrium rate is 3.75% now (and the old norm was 5.5%), we can expect similar "haircut" to long-run SIBOR rate now vs many years ago!

DC33_2008
06-10-14, 20:45
Smart investors have already started going into US market several months ago. Emerging market is slowly and funds have started moving back to US, with a slow down in China's economy.
"haircut" is a term MAS like to use, as can be seen in their TDSR directives on how to compute TDSR, like your foreign currency and assets' values needs a haircut of 70% when computing your TDSR (vs only 30% haircut of your S$ currency and assets' values)........ :highly_amused:

I must say, they are dead wrong in their directives!
Going forward, foreign currency and assets like US$ and US stocks are going appreciate much faster and higher than S$ currency and assets! They should mandate haircut of 70% to S$ currency and assets' values and 30% for US$ and US stocks instead! :tongue-new:

teddybear
06-10-14, 22:37
That is even more strange given that MAS mandated that S$ currency and assets MUST have higher valuation than US$ currency and assets! :suspicion:
Anyway, the trend of US$ appreciating against S$ has started, and this trend will likely continue for a few years!
For those people whom their world is only S$ cash and S$ assets, they should go out and see the big wide world, and beware of OCR private properties! :witless:


Smart investors have already started going into US market several months ago. Emerging market is slowly and funds have started moving back to US, with a slow down in China's economy.

Arcachon
06-10-14, 23:24
That is even more strange given that MAS mandated that S$ currency and assets MUST have higher valuation than US$ currency and assets! :suspicion:
Anyway, the trend of US$ appreciating against S$ has started, and this trend will likely continue for a few years!
For those people whom their world is only S$ cash and S$ assets, they should go out and see the big wide world, and beware of OCR private properties! :witless:

Wait and see, don't be misled, by US$ appreciating against S$. I don't think a few years a few month you will see S$ appreciating US$ otherwise Jim Roger don't have to move from New York to Singapore.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYk-ubzijDs

teddybear
06-10-14, 23:33
Let's wait and see............... I am confident that US$ will be higher than S$ 1 year later from now, and will still be higher 2 years later.................. Let put on record that now US$1 is US$1.278.

And not to pour cold water, if you have invested in soft commodities like what someone strongly urged you to, don't think you are in good position..............


Wait and see, don't be misled, by US$ appreciating against S$. I don't think a few years a few month you will see S$ appreciating US$ otherwise Jim Roger don't have to move from New York to Singapore.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYk-ubzijDs

Arcachon
07-10-14, 01:57
Only know property, brought share and the next thing you know the share market crash.

pmet
07-10-14, 12:30
Based on what you said, I would dump all bonds, T-bills, all REITs etc now! Bonds and REITs and T-bills will suffer heavily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

US Govt will also need to pay huge interests through their noses because they still need money to run due to budget deficit by issuing T-bills!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last time I heard, 3.75% is Fed's new norm or new long-term equilibrium rate to avoid paying historical norm of 5.5% interest!
See below for Feds guidance:

"The new Fed forecasts suggest that at the end of 2016 the U.S. economy will be at full employment, with inflation slightly below 2%. Despite that robust outlook, the Fed's projected median fed funds rate for the end of 2016 is just 2.85%, nearly 1% below its stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%. Fed Chair Janet Yellen attributed this to the "lingering effects" of the global financial crisis."

I've said that the FED uses forward guidance so regardless of what they say now, the interest rates in 5yrs time won't be 3.75%. You have to see the acceleration of the US economy to get ahead of the curve which the FED always fail to do so. What's more, the upcoming US presidential election could also throw the FED into doldrums if conservative Republicans are elected. All-in-all, there are alot of variables ahead and if you're an investor, you would not use short-sighted references like the 3.75% in your decision to buy or sell an investment. My take is still 5% or more in 5yrs from now.

On a sidetrack, I so agree with you that USD and US denominated assets will appreciate from this point. SGD and SGD denomicated assets have past its golden years.

pmet
07-10-14, 12:52
DBS knows something we don't, and maybe Bill Gross knows something we don't too. My advise is, don't copycat lah!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102036062

The sudden exit of Bill Gross from Pimco sparked a knee-jerk selloff in the Treasury market, a drop in Pimco closed-end funds and rallies in competitors' shares as traders gamed whether the world's largest bond house would see an exodus of investors and a repositioning in its funds.

He will be succeeded by Daniel Ivascyn, the company announced later on Friday.
Treasury yields moved higher, with the 10-year going from about 2.50 to 2.54 percent, before retreating back to 2.52 in midmorning trading.

Read MoreBill Gross jumps to Janus

Gross, who ran the Pimco Total Return Fund, the largest bond fund, announced his immediate departure for Janus Capital Management where he will manage the Janus Global Unconstrained Bond Fund (JUCAX) and will be responsible for building out the firm's global macro fixed income strategies. Janus stock surged 36 percent, and rival BlackRock jumped 3 percent.

Bill Gross
Andrew Harrer | Bloomberg | Getty Images
Bill Gross
"I don't believe the fundamental news should be negative for Treasurys but people are talking about it," said Ian lyngen, senior strategist at CRT Capital. "The logic goes like this. Gross is bullish. He's leaving Pimco. Pimco is a big holder of securities, so that could likely lead to selling. Gross has a cult of personality. Pimco could lose assets. Do they go to Janus? Unclear."

The Pimco Total Return ETF fell slightly, but Pimco closed-end funds were hit hard. Pimco Corporate and Income Opportunity Fund dropped 5 percent, Pimco Global StocksPLUS and Income Fund fell more than 7 percent and Pimco High Income Fund fell more than 6 percent.
"It could account for worse-than-expected performance in high yield, and maybe a few basis points in bonds," said Adrian Miller, director of fixed income strategy at GMP Securities. There was some speculation that Pimco was the big player selling high-yield securities this week, ahead of Gross' departure.

A spokesman at Allianz, Pimco's parent company, declined to comment on Gross outside of a brief statement confirming the move. Its shares were weaker. Gross joins Richard Weil, CEO at Janus, a former colleague who left Pimco in 2010. Gross, 70, founded Pacific Investment Management Co. in 1971.

He built Pimco into a $2 trillion bond house, but the firm has suffered recently as investors pulled more than $64 billion from the Total Return fund since May 2013. The $222 billion fund is the largest bond mutual fund in the world.

The Wall Street Journal reported Pimco was about to fire Gross before he resigned, according to sources. The newspaper earlier in the week reported the Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating the Total Return ETF run by Gross for artificially boosting returns.

In terms of assets, Pimco dwarfs Janus, which has $177.7 billion under management.

Arcachon
07-10-14, 14:29
Introduction to Singapore Government Securities (SGS)

Singapore Government Securities (SGS) were initially issued to meet banks' needs for a risk-free asset in their liquid asset portfolios. In 1998, MAS spearheaded efforts to enhance the efficiency and liquidity of the SGS market as part of its strategy to develop Singapore as an international debt hub. This was further refined in May 2000 with the introduction of a focused issuance programme aimed at building large and liquid benchmark bonds, primarily through larger issuance of new SGS bonds and re-openings of existing issues to enlarge the free float and occasional bond purchase programmes to re-channel liquidity from off-the-run issues to benchmark bonds. Since then, the SGS market has grown significantly, making it one of the fastest developing bond markets in Asia.

Unlike many other countries, the Singapore Government does not need to finance its expenditures through the issuance of government bonds as it operates a balanced budget policy and often enjoys budget surpluses. This allows the government to focus on the development of Singapore’s capital markets instead, and the issuance of SGS serves primarily to:

i. build a liquid SGS market to provide a robust government yield curve for the pricing of private debt securities;

ii. foster the growth of an active secondary market, both for cash transactions and derivatives, to enable efficient risk management; and

iii. encourage issuers and investors, both domestic and international, to participate in the Singapore bond market.

As the fiscal agent of the Singapore Government, MAS is empowered by the Development Loan Act and the Government Securities Act to undertake the issue and management of securities on behalf of the Government.

The amount of SGS issued is authorised by a resolution of Parliament and with the President's concurrence. Each year, MAS seeks approval from the Minister for Finance for the total SGS issuance amount for the new financial year. MAS decides, in consultation with the SGS primary dealers, the timing and amount of individual bond issues.

teddybear
07-10-14, 16:53
This is what I see from new: "Fed ... stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%"...
"long-run equilibrium" is short term to you? How "short" is your "short-term"?


"The new Fed forecasts suggest that at the end of 2016 the U.S. economy will be at full employment, with inflation slightly below 2%. Despite that robust outlook, the Fed's projected median fed funds rate for the end of 2016 is just 2.85%, nearly 1% below its stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%. Fed Chair Janet Yellen attributed this to the "lingering effects" of the global financial crisis."


I've said that the FED uses forward guidance so regardless of what they say now, the interest rates in 5yrs time won't be 3.75%. You have to see the acceleration of the US economy to get ahead of the curve which the FED always fail to do so. What's more, the upcoming US presidential election could also throw the FED into doldrums if conservative Republicans are elected. All-in-all, there are alot of variables ahead and if you're an investor, you would not use short-sighted references like the 3.75% in your decision to buy or sell an investment. My take is still 5% or more in 5yrs from now.

On a sidetrack, I so agree with you that USD and US denominated assets will appreciate from this point. SGD and SGD denomicated assets have past its golden years.

Arcachon
07-10-14, 17:27
Lots of people got short term memory, the US$ will go up, interest will go up but when they start to remember how much debt US have all will start coming down.

They are proud to be in Debt. Debt equal Money, No debt no money.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

pmet
08-10-14, 01:30
This is what I see from new: "Fed ... stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%"...
"long-run equilibrium" is short term to you? How "short" is your "short-term"?


"The new Fed forecasts suggest that at the end of 2016 the U.S. economy will be at full employment, with inflation slightly below 2%. Despite that robust outlook, the Fed's projected median fed funds rate for the end of 2016 is just 2.85%, nearly 1% below its stated long-run equilibrium rate of 3.75%. Fed Chair Janet Yellen attributed this to the "lingering effects" of the global financial crisis."

Read my previous post. I've mentioned that you need to treat the FED's long term and short term rates as forward guidance which can change if economic or political climate changes: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102050278

3.75% is by no means goal post.

So far, the FED has proven to be behind the curve so go figure yourself.

teddybear
08-10-14, 08:27
It is a joke when people say "the FED has proven to be behind the curve" ha ha ha!
The Fed they themselves set the Fed fund rate, why would they care when people say they are "behind the curve"? Those people just because the Fed didn't do what they advocated? :im-a-gonna-get-u:


Read my previous post. I've mentioned that you need to treat the FED's long term and short term rates as forward guidance which can change if economic or political climate changes: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102050278

3.75% is by no means goal post.

So far, the FED has proven to be behind the curve so go figure yourself.

pmet
09-10-14, 22:21
It is a joke when people say "the FED has proven to be behind the curve" ha ha ha!
The Fed they themselves set the Fed fund rate, why would they care when people say they are "behind the curve"? Those people just because the Fed didn't do what they advocated? :im-a-gonna-get-u:

If the FED is behind the curve, do you still think you can trust their forecast? In the same way, if a weather man who's always behind the curve can only tell you yesterday's weather forecast, so are you still going out without an umbrella today? This discussion is getting way longer than it's worth. Just agree or disagree and call it a day.

And everyone knows MBT was behind the curve too.

teddybear
09-10-14, 22:40
Behind the curve or not, we don't know now, it is always hinge-sight talk and you can say they are behind the curve, and they can say they didn't. Who is to judge whether they are really "behind the curve"? Even MBT also stressed that he wasn't "behind the curve", so how? You want to say he is lying?

What we know is that:

1) The Fed has the absolute power to set the Fed rate.

2) If the Fed say their long-term equilibrium Fed rate is 3.75%, then they can always keep it highest at 3.75%, regardless whatever you say or your accusation that they are "behind the curve" and it will still not change their decision on the Fed rate.

3) Whether they are behind the curve or not, you can argue for ages until the cow come home but it still won't affect Fed's decision until they tell us that they have changed their decision on their long-term equilibrium Fed rate is 3.75%. Who knows, may be in another 10 years, may be their new long-term equilibrium Fed rate will be 3.00% by then? :p



If the FED is behind the curve, do you still think you can trust their forecast? In the same way, if a weather man who's always behind the curve can only tell you yesterday's weather forecast, so are you still going out without an umbrella today? This discussion is getting way longer than it's worth. Just agree or disagree and call it a day.

And everyone knows MBT was behind the curve too.

pmet
10-10-14, 02:57
Behind the curve or not, we don't know now, it is always hinge-sight talk and you can say they are behind the curve, and they can say they didn't. Who is to judge whether they are really "behind the curve"? Even MBT also stressed that he wasn't "behind the curve", so how? You want to say he is lying?

What we know is that:

1) The Fed has the absolute power to set the Fed rate.

2) If the Fed say their long-term equilibrium Fed rate is 3.75%, then they can always keep it highest at 3.75%, regardless whatever you say or your accusation that they are "behind the curve" and it will still not change their decision on the Fed rate.

3) Whether they are behind the curve or not, you can argue for ages until the cow come home but it still won't affect Fed's decision until they tell us that they have changed their decision on their long-term equilibrium Fed rate is 3.75%. Who knows, may be in another 10 years, may be their new long-term equilibrium Fed rate will be 3.00% by then? :p

Well you're entitled to your own opinion but saying MBT wasn't behind the curve is just like saying cows don't have teeth. Ask anyone. Whether it will be 3% or 5%, it can only be predicted but not mandated by the so called long-term equilibrium FED rate. Yellen has mentioned that FED sets rates based on inflation and jobless rates so those can affect the outcome in years to come. You have to pray very hard for jobless rates to increase and inflation to stay below 2% for the FED to hold historical low rates. When Obama is out, we may have another interesting chapter in the FED's history, for better or worse. I'm clear about the situation in the US and I can tell you low rates will not last. 5% is the new reality in due time, just stop debating and watch this space.

Peace.

teddybear
10-10-14, 08:58
You are entitled to your opinion, but just let me made it clear that I am of the opinion that:
I am very clear about the situation in US and 3.75% is the new long-term equilibrium norm because of the structural damage of multiple QEs and the high US govt debt - the Fed know very well about this as well (and the Fed is not so stupid to increase the rate too much so that the US govt has to pay more interest to their debtors?!)............


Well you're entitled to your own opinion but saying MBT wasn't behind the curve is just like saying cows don't have teeth. Ask anyone. Whether it will be 3% or 5%, it can only be predicted but not mandated by the so called long-term equilibrium FED rate. Yellen has mentioned that FED sets rates based on inflation and jobless rates so those can affect the outcome in years to come. You have to pray very hard for jobless rates to increase and inflation to stay below 2% for the FED to hold historical low rates. When Obama is out, we may have another interesting chapter in the FED's history, for better or worse. I'm clear about the situation in the US and I can tell you low rates will not last. 5% is the new reality in due time, just stop debating and watch this space.

Peace.

chestnut
10-10-14, 09:49
You are entitled to your opinion, but just let me made it clear that I am of the opinion that:
I am very clear about the situation in US and 3.75% is the new long-term equilibrium norm because of the structural damage of multiple QEs and the high US govt debt - the Fed know very well about this as well (and the Fed is not so stupid to increase the rate too much so that the US govt has to pay more interest to their debtors?!)............

Effects of interest rate on debt repayment

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.sg/2014/01/when-will-interest-on-us-national-debt.html

teddybear
10-10-14, 14:26
You are spot on with the article! Exactly my thinking! Fed wayang wayang and shifted goal-post many times about hiking rates, and even then, they have reduced their long-term equilibrium Fed rate from 5.5% to 3.75% already! Since 3.75% is the long-term rate and not their target rate within 1 year or 2, I believe the Fed will really take "long-term" to hike to 3.75% (if they ever will) !


Effects of interest rate on debt repayment

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.sg/2014/01/when-will-interest-on-us-national-debt.html

DC33_2008
14-10-14, 09:24
BLOOMBERG NEWS


Bond Market Convinced Fed Inflation Goal Unreachable This Decade

By Daniel Kruger and Cordell Eddings - Oct 13, 2014


When it comes to spurring inflation in the U.S. economy, the bond market is becoming convinced that the Federal Reserve has almost no chance of achieving its 2 percent target before the end of the decade.

Inflation expectations have plummeted in the past three months, with yields of Treasuries (BUSY) implying consumer prices will rise an average 1.5 percent annually through the third quarter of 2019. In the past decade, those predictions have come within 0.1 percentage point of the actual rate of price increases in the following five years, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

Even after the Fed inundated the economy with more than $3.5 trillion since 2008, bond traders are showing little fear of inflation. That may help influence U.S. monetary policy and make it harder for Fed officials to raise interest rates from close to zero as global growth weakens and the International Monetary Fund points to disinflation as a more imminent concern.

“The longer inflation rates stay below their targets, the longer the Fed’s going to stay on hold,” Gregory Whiteley, a money manager at Los Angeles-based DoubleLine Capital LP, which oversees $56 billion, said by telephone yesterday. “The burden of proof is more on the hawks and the people arguing for a rise in rates. They’re the people who have to make the case.”

As the Fed winds down the most-aggressive stimulus measures in its 100-year history, the debate has intensified over how soon the central bank needs to raise rates and whether the shift will herald the long-awaited bear market in bonds.

Predictive Power

While Dallas Fed President Richard Fisher and Philadelphia Fed’s Charles Plosser dissented at the bank’s last meeting and have both warned that keeping rates too low for too long may trigger excessive inflation, the bond market’s predictive power helps to explain why U.S. government debt remains in demand.

Instead of falling, as just about every Wall Street prognosticator predicted at the start of the year, Treasuries have returned 5.1 percent in 2014. The gains have outstripped U.S. stocks, gold and commodities this year.

Yields on the 10-year note, the benchmark for trillions of dollars of securities, have plummeted 0.75 percentage point and ended at a 15-month low of 2.28 percent last week.

The rally has accelerated this month as a string of developments from lackluster wage growth to potential deflation in Europe cast doubt on the notion that price pressures will prompt the Fed to raise rates sooner rather than later.

After the annual inflation rate rose to a two-year high of 2.1 percent in May, consumer-price increases have since slowed for three straight months to 1.7 percent in August.

‘Fundamental Worry’

“There’s a fundamental worry that inflation won’t be forthcoming,” Wan-Chong Kung, a money manager at Nuveen Asset Management, which oversees $225 billion, said by telephone from Minneapolis on Oct. 8.

Kung said she sold her holdings of five-year Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities, or TIPS, which unlike fixed-rate bonds increase in value to compensate for rising living costs.

One of the biggest reasons inflation remains muted is because consistent wage increases that spur consumer spending and demand have yet to materialize. Hourly earnings for U.S. workers, whose spending accounts for 70 percent of the economy, were unchanged last month. They have been flat or increased just 0.1 percent in four of the past seven months.

Weakening global growth has also emerged as a threat. Last week, the Washington-based IMF lowered its growth outlook for next year to 3.8 percent from a July forecast of 4 percent and pointed to the increasing risk of falling prices in Europe.

Global Drag

Fed Vice Chairman Stanley Fischer said on Oct. 11 at the IMF’s annual meetings that if overseas growth is weaker than anticipated, “the consequences for the U.S. economy could lead the Fed to remove accommodation more slowly than otherwise.”

His comments echoed those of a number of Fed officials who said the expansion “might be slower than they expected if foreign economic growth came in weaker than anticipated,” minutes from the Sept. 16-17 meeting released last week showed.

“The Fed wants to raise rates, but you’re not seeing the kind of global growth that would suggest interest rates have to go up any time soon,” Jim Kochan, the chief fixed-income strategist at Wells Fargo Funds Management LLC, which oversees $221 billion, said by telephone from Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin.

The consequences for inflation are already being priced into the bond market. Based on the gap between yields of government notes and TIPS, traders have scaled back estimates for average inflation through 2019 by a half-percentage point since June to 1.52 percent, Fed data compiled by Bloomberg show.

Collective Wisdom

That decline has significance for policy makers because yields have historically been accurate in predicting the future pace of annual cost-of-living increases.

The market’s five-year forecast has understated actual inflation based on the U.S. consumer price index by a median of just 0.04 percentage point since the data began in 2003.

With the Fed’s preferred measure averaging 0.34 percentage point less than CPI in that span, traders are signaling prices based on that gauge may rise as little as 1.18 percent. Through August, the personal consumption expenditures deflator has fallen short of the Fed’s 2 percent goal for 28 straight months.

Fed officials “need to be paying attention to that because there’s a collective wisdom element to the TIPS market,” Mitchell Stapley, the chief investment officer for Cincinnati-based ClearArc Capital, which manages $7 billion, said in an Oct. 8 telephone interview.

Bond traders who are shunning TIPS are underestimating the risk that inflation will pick up as the U.S. economy strengthens and workers are hired at the fastest pace since 1999, according to Pacific Investment Management Co.’s Mirih Worah.

Less Confident

Even as the rest of the world slows, the IMF boosted its forecast for U.S. growth next year to 3.1 percent, which would be the fastest in a decade. In July, the fund predicted the world’s largest economy would expand 3 percent in 2015.

“For the next 12 months, headline inflation will be 1.5 percent, but not for the next five years,” Worah, one of the co-managers who succeeded Bill Gross in overseeing Pimco’s $201 billion Total Return Fund, said by telephone Oct. 9 from Newport Beach, California. “It’s overdone.”

Worah said he’s been buying five-year TIPS as prices of the securities declined. In September, TIPS of all maturities lost 2.7 percent in the biggest monthly decline since June 2013.

Futures traders are signaling their skepticism over accelerating inflation by pushing back projections for the Fed’s first rate increase since 2006.

For the first time in at least six months, they’re pricing in the likelihood the Fed won’t raise its target rate until after next September, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

‘Disinflationary Cycle’

When it comes to a rate boost in October 2015, odds based on futures trading have fallen to little more than a coin flip.

Lower commodity prices, coupled with the dollar’s strength as traders anticipate looser monetary policy in Europe and Japan, also suggest inflation will remain in check and give the Fed room to maneuver as the U.S. economy grows.

Crude oil prices have fallen 20 percent from a nine-month high in June, entering a bear market last week after closing at $86 a barrel. The Bloomberg Commodity Index, which measures 22 commodities from corn to zinc, tumbled 11.8 percent last quarter in the biggest slump since the financial crisis in 2008.

Most commodities are priced in dollars, which has helped reduce costs for American businesses and consumers as the U.S. currency rallied to a four-year high this month.

“It’s becoming increasingly more difficult to be a hawk given what’s going on with inflation,” Kevin Giddis, the Memphis, Tennessee-based head of fixed-income capital markets at Raymond James & Associates Inc., said in a telephone interview on Oct. 10. “We are in a longer-term disinflationary cycle that is likely to keep rates low for some time.”

To contact the reporters on this story: Daniel Kruger in New York at [email protected]; Cordell Eddings in New York at [email protected]

To contact the editors responsible for this story: Dave Liedtka at [email protected]; Michael Tsang at [email protected] Michael Tsang, Paul Cox
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Allthepies
14-10-14, 19:26
MBT is only behind the curve when the target group is home buyers (20%? Transitional). .. he is the curve for existing owners (80%)... so who is to say MBT is behind or infront of the curve and for which curve?

lajia
14-10-14, 21:33
Have u refinance with dbs? I think fix at 2.18% for 5 years. Quick do it before it is too late. Ya watch this space...


Well you're entitled to your own opinion but saying MBT wasn't behind the curve is just like saying cows don't have teeth. Ask anyone. Whether it will be 3% or 5%, it can only be predicted but not mandated by the so called long-term equilibrium FED rate. Yellen has mentioned that FED sets rates based on inflation and jobless rates so those can affect the outcome in years to come. You have to pray very hard for jobless rates to increase and inflation to stay below 2% for the FED to hold historical low rates. When Obama is out, we may have another interesting chapter in the FED's history, for better or worse. I'm clear about the situation in the US and I can tell you low rates will not last. 5% is the new reality in due time, just stop debating and watch this space.

Peace.

Arcachon
14-10-14, 22:38
Have u refinance with dbs? I think fix at 2.18% for 5 years. Quick do it before it is too late. Ya watch this space...

Like

teddybear
14-10-14, 22:50
I just refinanced!
DBS sucks now on floating rates! They more interested in their fixed rate business like 2.18% for 5 years!
They so sure SIBOR + 1% will not increase beyond 2.18% within 5 years?
ANZ and BOC give better deals for floating rates!


Have u refinance with dbs? I think fix at 2.18% for 5 years. Quick do it before it is too late. Ya watch this space...

amk
14-10-14, 23:10
I have the same opinion that low rate will be new norm for a long time.
Today 10y UST is only 2.22%.
No wonder DBS so confident to offer 2.18% for 5yrs.

This is a strange era. Many market theories will be tested. Very likely 5-6% unemployment in developed economy will be a norm too. In fact, that will be good unemployment already. Europe is double digits.

Jem
15-10-14, 00:16
If we are confident that interest rates will stay low so we should choose SOR over SIBOR then? I'm thinking which one should I go for. Or a combo.

Yuki
15-10-14, 07:37
I just refinanced!
DBS sucks now on floating rates! They more interested in their fixed rate business like 2.18% for 5 years!
They so sure SIBOR + 1% will not increase beyond 2.18% within 5 years?
ANZ and BOC give better deals for floating rates!

How much is ANZ n box offering for floating rates?

I feel that banks are never in the business of losing money.especially dbs.if they dare to offer 2.18 means that they are confident that the rates will not increase beyond that.

That's my feel and so far no one had told me that they benefited from such packages.

Banks probably have insider news.

Jem
15-10-14, 09:56
How much is ANZ n box offering for floating rates?

I feel that banks are never in the business of losing money.especially dbs.if they dare to offer 2.18 means that they are confident that the rates will not increase beyond that.

That's my feel and so far no one had told me that they benefited from such packages.

Banks probably have insider news.

More like they are confident that it will not increase beyond that rate in the next 2 to 3 years so they have already earned and buffered upfront and any increase should not be higher than 3 per cent.

teddybear
15-10-14, 13:13
BOC offering 3mSIBOR + 0.90% without legal subsidy, or 3mSIBOR + 0.95% with legal subsidy.
ANZ offering 3mSOR + 0.93% package & 3mSOR + 1.00% package (different terms).

These are already not so good deals... I have another with 3mSIBOR + 0.80% with legal subsidy & valuation & fire insurance free for 1st year all thrown in refinanced several months ago (but no longer available now!).



How much is ANZ n box offering for floating rates?

I feel that banks are never in the business of losing money.especially dbs.if they dare to offer 2.18 means that they are confident that the rates will not increase beyond that.

That's my feel and so far no one had told me that they benefited from such packages.

Banks probably have insider news.

DC33_2008
15-10-14, 15:24
Remember not too long ago spread was about 0.6-0.75 for SOR/Sibor in 2009-2011.
BOC offering 3mSIBOR + 0.90% without legal subsidy, or 3mSIBOR + 0.95% with legal subsidy.
ANZ offering 3mSOR + 0.93% package & 3mSOR + 1.00% package (different terms).

These are already not so good deals... I have another with 3mSIBOR + 0.80% with legal subsidy & valuation & fire insurance free for 1st year all thrown in refinanced several months ago (but no longer available now!).

MortgageGuru
15-10-14, 19:07
Given current market,FIXED RATE is the encourage package right now as you need to serve 3 months notice to your existing bank.
I believe SIBOR will be 1.5% at minimum by end of 1st quarter of 2015.By then,you will lose out on the current 2 years <1.5% FIXED RATE PACKAGE.
The interest you'll be paying will be more than $10k over the course of these 2 years,at least.