View Full Version : Why condo units are shrinking
Why condo units are shrinking
Published on May 7, 2014 1:13 AM 7 10 0 0PRINT EMAIL
PRIVATE developers are only meeting the growing demand for smaller condominium units ("Condo units shrinking: Report"; April 28).
I know of people who are holding on to their HDB flats and buying small private condo units either to rent out, or to live in while renting out their HDB units, hence turning the subsidised flats into "long-term cash cows".
As they are not selling their flats, they cannot pay a large quantum for the condo units, which leads to growing demand for "downsized" apartments.
Letting HDB flat owners rent out their units for profit, when they can afford private property, goes against the HDB's mission of providing affordable homes for the masses.
A subsidised flat that is being used to generate long-term profits is not really a home.
The HDB should relook its policies in this regard.
A flat owner who buys private property should be subjected to an income assessment.
If his income is above a certain cap set by the HDB, he should be made to sell his flat on the open market within a certain period of taking possession of the private property.
When owners have to dispose of their HDB flats upon upgrading to private property, they will have more cash and Central Provident Fund savings to purchase larger condo units, which in turn encourages developers to build them.
Another way would be to limit the timeframe that an HDB flat can be rented out, if the owner has a private property under his name and does not have a valid reason, such as being stationed overseas, for renting out the unit.
Current rules forbid a private property owner from purchasing even a resale HDB flat. The same rule should apply to HDB flat owners looking to buy private property.
This is a loophole many are exploiting, resulting in fewer resale HDB flats on the market. This deprives people who genuinely need public housing from owning such units, and encourages developers to build smaller condo units for HDB flat owners who want the best of both worlds.
Chan Suan Yen (Ms)
wow...this lady really wants to crash the property market. Hope she knows what she's wishing for, Cheers! :cheers1:
I think the implications will be:
1. Taking a further huge chunk of demand out of current condo units. The fall will likely be very swift.
2. Some degree of forced selling of HDB. Based on supply and demand conditions, the price will also drop.
This is likely to be the crash / GSS that MTBs have been waiting for!
This writer is someone who is probably young, with or without a hbd but cannot afford a PC.
simple minded and selfish.
what about those people i.e. retirees who depends on renting out their rooms for retirement income for daily usage.
also what make them think that if the HDB seller have more cash the developer will build bigger units! and not raise the PSF for the PC.?
simpleminded.
wow...this lady really wants to crash the property market. Hope she knows what she's wishing for, Cheers! :cheers1:
I support her view. I have said long ago HDB is public housing and should never be allowed to be monetised.
simple minded and selfish.
what about those people i.e. retirees who depends on renting out their rooms for retirement income for daily usage.
also what make them think that if the HDB seller have more cash the developer will build bigger units! and not raise the PSF for the PC.?
simpleminded.
These retirees dont have CPF? How come CPF not enough for retirement?
They only got themselves to blame, no crutch mentality, ya?
I support her view. I have said long ago HDB is public housing and should never be allowed to be monetised.
I don't understand your logic. How does the current policies allow monetising of the HDB flat? Are u suggesting that HDB flat owners not be allowed to invest in properties?
smellyfish
07-05-14, 12:12
where is this published in? SPH is known to troll by publishing such letters from time to time.
at the end of the day, it is just a very narrow view that doesnt gel with how the regulators, govt, stakeholders look at property, and will never get any currency.
Amber Woods
07-05-14, 12:50
The writer raised a very important point. The shrinking size of today's apartment is largely due to HDB upgraders keeping their flats instead of selling them. By not selling their HDB flats, most upgraders would not have the financial means to buy a bigger private apartment. Hence, they chose to buy small private apartments instead.
These sizable group of HDB upgraders can have the option of living in a smaller private apartment and rent out their HDB flats or continue to live in their more spacious HDB flats and rent out their smaller private apartments. They indirectly influence the demand for small private apartments and so developers continue to build them.
I support her view. I have said long ago HDB is public housing and should never be allowed to be monetised.
Agree that HDB should be kept affordable. But if price plunge becomes lesser than outstanding loan amount, banks can call the difference. This will be a good time to exploit the market, but many people will suffer. Wish all the overleveraged buyers well :)
These retirees dont have CPF? How come CPF not enough for retirement?
They only got themselves to blame, no crutch mentality, ya?
Why the retirees cannot get more $ from rental to complement their CPF ? different folks different needs. some squander all their CPF liao who's fault? renting out at least give them another avenue to get income.
Or I guess u rather wish all the retirees go wipe table?
thomastansb
07-05-14, 13:24
The appreciation and "cash cow" concept of HDB was changed in the 90s. As the older generations do not have much cash or CPF and Singapore transitioning from 3rd to 1st world, the only thing these old and poor elderly can rely on is the HDB.
So the Government allowed rental and also speed up the price appreciation process. So majority of Singaporeans (80%) can benefit from it.
So now, some jealous people are thinking otherwise. Let the old people die. Let their parents rot. Why our parents can buy 30k and sell 700k and not us?
Well, you have your wish soon :) No more 700k :tongue3:
The writer raised a very important point. The shrinking size of today's apartment is largely due to HDB upgraders keeping their flats instead of selling them. By not selling their HDB flats, most upgraders would not have the financial means to buy a bigger private apartment. Hence, they chose to buy small private apartments instead.
These sizable group of HDB upgraders can have the option of living in a smaller private apartment and rent out their HDB flats or continue to live in their more spacious HDB flats and rent out their smaller private apartments. They indirectly influence the demand for small private apartments and so developers continue to build them.
well its their personal choice. maybe they don't want a bigger unit? they could have sold their HDB but choose not to. its their personal choice.
Thinking that selling their hbd would equal to a bigger unit not logical. if want bigger unit must will just stay put or buy a old 5 bed room HDB.
thomastansb
07-05-14, 13:27
Remember the concept by oppositions? They tell you low HDB price and no foreigners. Of course :cool:
Low HDB price - so retirees cannot retire
Less foreigners - so these old people can come out to wipe tables because they cannot retire
Why the retirees cannot get more $ from rental to complement their CPF ? different folks different needs. some squander all their CPF liao who's fault? renting out at least give them another avenue to get income.
Or I guess u rather wish all the retirees go wipe table?
I don't understand your logic. How does the current policies allow monetising of the HDB flat? Are u suggesting that HDB flat owners not be allowed to invest in properties?
The same logic as why when one buys a HDB one will need to dispose of one's private property.
Agree that HDB should be kept affordable. But if price plunge becomes lesser than outstanding loan amount, banks can call the difference. This will be a good time to exploit the market, but many people will suffer. Wish all the overleveraged buyers well :)
Too bad. "Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin. It doesn't work."
Why the retirees cannot get more $ from rental to complement their CPF ? different folks different needs. some squander all their CPF liao who's fault? renting out at least give them another avenue to get income.
Or I guess u rather wish all the retirees go wipe table?
"We should not breed a crutch mentality."
I am sure u know this saying well, u disagree with our PAP leaders?
Remember the concept by oppositions? They tell you low HDB price and no foreigners. Of course :cool:
Low HDB price - so retirees cannot retire
Less foreigners - so these old people can come out to wipe tables because they cannot retire
low hdb price = less cpf money tied up in hdb = more money in cpf = can retire.
less foreigners = salary higher = more money in cpf = can retire.
compare and contrast.
in the 80s, hdb price low, less foreigners, you can see many retirees relaxing in void decks.
in the 10's, hdb price high, more foreigners, you can see many retirees working in food courts.
thomastansb
07-05-14, 13:50
Many retirees? How you define? You went to count?
High HDB Price = More money when you downgrade = More money to retire
Less foreigners = Weaker economy = Lesser money = Cannot retire
low hdb price = less cpf money tied up in hdb = more money in cpf = can retire.
less foreigners = salary higher = more money in cpf = can retire.
as proof of concept.
in the 80s, hdb price low, you can see many retirees relaxing in void decks.
in the 10's, hdb price high, you can see many retirees working in food courts.
Many retirees? How you define? You went to count?
High HDB Price = More money when you downgrade = More money to retire
Less foreigners = Weaker economy = Lesser money = Cannot retire
whats your own observation in the 80s and now?
thomastansb
07-05-14, 14:01
3rd to 1st world. I don't count retirees because that is grossly inaccurate and inconclusive.
whats your own observation in the 80s and now?
3rd to 1st world. I don't count retirees because that is grossly inaccurate and inconclusive.
wah biang, earlier post u mention about cannot retire,
.....
Low HDB price - so retirees cannot retire
Less foreigners - so these old people can come out to wipe tables because they cannot retire
now i talk about observing retirees, old folks, between the 2 eras. you say u dont count retirees.
so whats ur observation in the 80's and 10's. no need for theories. just tell me what you observed.
Amber Woods
07-05-14, 14:09
well its their personal choice. maybe they don't want a bigger unit? they could have sold their HDB but choose not to. its their personal choice.
Thinking that selling their hbd would equal to a bigger unit not logical. if want bigger unit must will just stay put or buy a old 5 bed room HDB.
The logic is if people have the incentive to sell their HDB flats, they would have bought a bigger private apartment as a form of upgrade or investment. Since rental yield for HDB flat is higher, there is no incentive to sell their HDB flats. By keeping their HDB flats, there is just so much money left that they could afford to buy private properties; hence small unit apartments is in demand, not by choice but by circumstances.
This writer is someone who is probably young, with or without a hbd but cannot afford a PC.
She is definitely looking for a PC... that is why she never include why HDB units are also shrinking.
FamilyGuy72
07-05-14, 14:20
I don't understand your logic. How does the current policies allow monetising of the HDB flat? Are u suggesting that HDB flat owners not be allowed to invest in properties?
You missed the point. HDB owners can invest in private properties but not allowed to make these property their home and convert their public subsidized housing into their money-making investment instead.
Same goes for HDB owning retirees who can afford to buy additional private properties, should only be allowed to rent out those investment instead of their flats.
thomastansb
07-05-14, 14:28
My parents retired. My auntie retired. They sell off their HDB and downgrade.
wah biang, earlier post u mention about cannot retire,
now i talk about observing retirees, old folks, between the 2 eras. you say u dont count retirees.
so whats ur observation in the 80's and 10's. no need for theories. just tell me what you observed.
She is definitely looking for a PC... that is why she never include why HDB units are also shrinking.
Exactly.
Hdb flats also shrunk a lot! !
Exactly.
Hdb flats also shrunk a lot! !
Then how about the rents for hdb so affordable that made the hdb prices go up n shrunk the hdb units due to demand.
Then we force people who can afford a pc to buy or rent pc instead of resale?
Can also argue in the same vein.
The writer raised a very important point. The shrinking size of today's apartment is largely due to HDB upgraders keeping their flats instead of selling them.
and the smart alec ask you NOT to sell your HDB is.........:D
My parents retired. My auntie retired. They sell off their HDB and downgrade.
do you mind to let us know if they sell their flat in the 80's or in the later periods, like 00's or 10's
Then how about the rents for hdb so affordable that made the hdb prices go up n shrunk the hdb units due to demand.
Then we force people who can afford a pc to buy or rent pc instead of resale?
Can also argue in the same vein.
I find the person who wrote the forum just want to buy a big PC cheap thats all. sound like MTB.
Actually how about the fact Singapore have developed from a swamp to a 1st world city thus the value of the things on this island will naturally increase with the countries worth and with that size changed which is regardless HDB, PC or landed?
Like that should we must well devalue singapore back to a swap or third world country so HDB, PC or landed can be big again ? but they want live in a swamp in third world conditions?
The logic is if people have the incentive to sell their HDB flats, they would have bought a bigger private apartment as a form of upgrade or investment. Since rental yield for HDB flat is higher, there is no incentive to sell their HDB flats. By keeping their HDB flats, there is just so much money left that they could afford to buy private properties; hence small unit apartments is in demand, not by choice but by circumstances.
So let me put it the other way round. So if the singaporean mentality is must have a investment prop. so the person have HDB not cannot rent out. What will happen is the HDB person will not sell. since cannot rent out will go buy a smaller unit to rent out.
How will that logic of not allowing them to rent out HDB help with lesser demand for smaller units? coz there will still be demand.
I find the person who wrote the forum just want to buy a big PC cheap thats all. sound like MTB.
Actually how about the fact Singapore have developed from a swamp to a 1st world city thus the value of the things on this island will naturally increase with the countries worth and with that size changed which is regardless HDB, PC or landed?
Like that should we must well devalue singapore back to a swap or third world country so HDB, PC or landed can be big again ? but they want live in a swamp in third world conditions?
i dont get the part about progress.
so when singapore, value increased, and size decreased?
eg. (figures just plucked)
like last time, people earn $3k can afford big HDB, can fully pay in 6 years.
now, singapore progressed, people earn $6k can afford only small HDB. fully pay in 15 years.
like that is still call progress?
thomastansb
07-05-14, 15:44
The last few years
do you mind to let us know if they sell their flat in the 80's or in the later periods, like 00's or 10's
walkthetiger
07-05-14, 15:53
The last few years
..u mentioned about ur parents hbd as example here.....but, even if ur parents can't sell so much to prepare their retirement... hope u did not forget ur responsibility to take full care of them after they retired.... they had invested in u...
Amber Woods
07-05-14, 15:56
So let me put it the other way round. So if the singaporean mentality is must have a investment prop. so the person have HDB not cannot rent out. What will happen is the HDB person will not sell. since cannot rent out will go buy a smaller unit to rent out.
How will that logic of not allowing them to rent out HDB help with lesser demand for smaller units? coz there will still be demand.
If HDB flat owners cannot rent out their entire flat, there is more incentive for them to sell and buy a bigger unit to upgrade; hence demand for bigger units increases
By allowing them to rent out their HDB flats, they see more benefit to rent out rather than to sell;hence demand for smaller units increases.
The logic is there.
If HDB flat owners cannot rent out their entire flat, there is more incentive for them to sell and buy a bigger unit to upgrade; hence demand for bigger units increases
By allowing them to rent out their HDB flats, they see more benefit to rent out rather than to sell;hence demand for smaller units increases.
The logic is there.
if I the HDB intention is invest. they will still go buy a MM.
i dont get the part about progress.
so when singapore, value increased, and size decreased?
eg. (figures just plucked)
like last time, people earn $3k can afford big HDB, can fully pay in 6 years.
now, singapore progressed, people earn $6k can afford only small HDB. fully pay in 15 years.
like that is still call progress?
what is the quality of HDB then? Brick walls that are not plastered? what about the infra around the HDB then? what abt from village to HDB to now PC? what abt having safe and clean water? what about not neededing to squat by the street to eat to siting in aircon to have a meal? what bat jobs? a plentiful of job with low jobless rates? what about from a old rattling non aircon bus to aircon bus today? and the list goes on.
what is the quality of HDB then? Brick walls that are not plastered? what about the infra around the HDB then? what abt from village to HDB to now PC? what abt having safe and clean water? what about not neededing to squat by the street to eat to siting in aircon to have a meal? what bat jobs? a plentiful of job with low jobless rates? what about from a old rattling non aircon bus to aircon bus today? and the list goes on.
the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.
we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.
any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).
i mean what is considered as progress?
the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.
we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.
any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).
i mean what is considered as progress?
Singapore Progress u mean a HDB in a middle of no where compare to a HDB in singapore down town. values the same? even within singapore different location have different value. the progress of the country development raises the value of things in the country. Where more people desire to be here.
must then u must well say a hut in africa desert is cheaper than a hut in Singapore then. how can that be a hut is a hut!
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/studio-apartments-scheme/1097558.html?cid=FBSG
SINGAPORE: Senior citizens who sold off their old flats and moved to a studio apartment have made around S$200,000 each from the scheme.
This is the amount they gained after paying off outstanding loans for the old flat and fully paying for the new studio apartment.
National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan revealed this in his blog on Wednesday as he described the Studio Apartment scheme as one which has become "valuable in supporting seniors' retirement needs".
He said that between 2006 and 2013, 7,600 households have booked a studio apartment.
Of these, two-thirds were below 65.
Half were living alone, being divorced, single or widowed.
About 70 per cent were former owners of a 3- or 4-room flat.
Mr Khaw said: "We are taking studio apartments one step further by weaving them into integrated developments, like the Kampung Admiralty which we broke ground for recently.
"The two blocks of studio apartments will have easy access to a hawker centre, public plaza, healthcare, childcare and eldercare services, all under the same roof.
"The co-location is deliberate to promote inter-generational interaction and bonding with their children and grandkids.
"We will continue to experiment and try out new layouts to see what will work best for our seniors, and to enable them to age actively where they live, in their familiar HDB town."
the items you mentioned are unrelated to the price of HDB increasing and area getting smaller and taking longer to pay off somemore.
we are focusing on 3 points
HDB smaller
HDB pricier
HDB take longer to pay off.
any difference between HDB in the 80's and the 10's that results in such an increase in price?
items like water etc, both HDB in 80's and 10's have safe and clean water.
(by the way HDB in 80's also have electricity).
i mean what is considered as progress?
picture tells a thousand words. u mean u cannot spot the difference?
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/427898_164685227008664_1928695173_n.png
http://bizdaily.com.sg/newsite/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/HDB2.jpg
from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.
from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?
what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.
in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.
is that progress?
The last few years
thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?
i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.
from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.
walkthetiger
07-05-14, 19:15
thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?
i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.
from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.
"孝" is lacking too... Many people seek help from gov and complain to gov their parents have no money to retire…and some may even say they can't support their retired parents...if so, then how can they be busying investing in PCsssss… I was recently told that these people can be top 5% earner in Singapore…. Haha…
challenger
07-05-14, 20:55
simple minded and selfish.
what about those people i.e. retirees who depends on renting out their rooms for retirement income for daily usage.
simpleminded.
If am fine with folks who rent out rooms for additional income. Old folk do that to help in cost of living.
I am ok if old folks stay in PC and rent out their HDB for income, ... provided they only have 1 PC.
The question is, if the person is young, maybe 35 years old, with high income, with one or more PC and HDB for rental income. Things are a bit grey. The person is depriving others of staying in subsidised housing. Should we as a society let one person make more money through rent or give the opportunity to another young person to stay in good location HDB at a cheaper price?
Considering the stage we are at, any rule change on HDB rental is going to hit people very hard. Where are all the SP, WP, EP going to stay? Who is going to rent all those HDB? PC price is going to shoot up since only alternative is to go private.;)
Some people will suggest tax the young person holding on to both HDB and PC, or limit the number of years they can rent their HDB or put in condition that must have at least 2 kids. But hah, government may lose a lot of votes leh.
thomastansb
07-05-14, 21:13
With that kind of profit, anyone can retire comfortably.
..u mentioned about ur parents hbd as example here.....but, even if ur parents can't sell so much to prepare their retirement... hope u did not forget ur responsibility to take full care of them after they retired.... they had invested in u...
If am fine with folks who rent out rooms for additional income. Old folk do that to help in cost of living.
I am ok if old folks stay in PC and rent out their HDB for income, ... provided they only have 1 PC.
The question is, if the person is young, maybe 35 years old, with high income, with one or more PC and HDB for rental income. Things are a bit grey. The person is depriving others of staying in subsidised housing. Should we as a society let one person make more money through rent or give the opportunity to another young person to stay in good location HDB at a cheaper price?
Considering the stage we are at, any rule change on HDB rental is going to hit people very hard. Where are all the SP, WP, EP going to stay? Who is going to rent all those HDB? PC price is going to shoot up since only alternative is to go private.;)
Some people will suggest tax the young person holding on to both HDB and PC, or limit the number of years they can rent their HDB or put in condition that must have at least 2 kids. But hah, government may lose a lot of votes leh.
WEll the other question the young singaporean here u mention will raise is hdb was his 1st home. he paid tax. and he is signaporean too he deserve this piece of wealfare every singaporean shoudl have. and subsequently he made it in life did well own more props are his hard work. he/she should not be punished for it becoz other feel jealous.
Also how would it deprive other singaporean form subsidized home? coz the 1st buy is subsidised. 2nd buy in resale do not get subsidy. so I wont say deprive anyone of subsidy.
thomastansb
07-05-14, 21:17
Depends isn't it?
Some say more shopping center = progress
Some say more shopping center = lesser trees = backwards
Some say 14" TV $1000 last time better
Some say 4kTV $5000 now better. Progress or backwards?
from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.
from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?
what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.
in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.
is that progress?
thomastansb
07-05-14, 21:18
From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.
thanks for sharing.
does the retirees in the 80's need to downgrade?
i have no hard data, all is from memories, and memories can fade or we look at the past with rose tinted glasses.
from recollection, i see less old folks working in food centre/food courts as compared to now.
walkthetiger
07-05-14, 21:56
From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.
...haha...一身铜臭味，你就进步了... take care..
From statistics, people are better off with higher HDB prices. Only a fool will want their only asset to depreciate. If you want to debate about lower HDB price is better, carry on. I don't engage in such stupid conversation. This is a no brainer.
wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?
does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?
and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?
and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?
singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.
only time will tell.
as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.
CondoInterested
07-05-14, 23:11
Where can find this article? URL?
If she graduated from NBS NTU in 2008, she should be 27 years old by this year's birthday.
Wonder what's her motivation?
She doesn't own HDB?
She doesn't have parents staying in HDB and stay in private housing?
Want to buy resale HDB under parents name but cannot buy because they have private house?
Well, just speculations, any other theories?
Strange, why am I reading this in the first place?
from drawing water from wells to pipe in water in HDB flats is progress.
from night buckets to modern sewage is progress.
from replacing bricks to glass walls, is that progress?
what i consider as progress
electronics is an example of progress.
todays PC is faster and cheaper than computers in the 80s.
todays LCD tv is bigger, lighter, cheaper than CRT tvs in the 80s.
in family life.
perhaps many of us here have memories of 1 father working and mother at home taking care of kids, staying in a bigger HDB house, taking a few years to pay off.
now what do we have, both husband and wife working, staying in a smaller HDB house, taking longer to pay off the mortgage.
is that progress?
the surrounding from bare grass with pot holes to parks and roads and shops and amenities and schools. that is progress
if u don't consider replacing a brick with glass as progress then ur argument of electronics don't hold water. basically in the 80s I have a phone that weights like a brick feel like a brick today its replace with a thin phone with glass in front and back . thats to me is progress brick to glass.
well in HDB over the years if u look at avg size they didn't change that much. infact in the 70s. HDB was even smaller. and its worst you have a family of 6-8 living in a unit which today a family of 4 lives in. to me that is progress
As for mother work stay home or not? thats up to the family. there are woman who stay in hdb who choose not to work. today most woman work because they are educated and woman equality have improved that to me is progress. they can choose to work or not to. many choose to coz its their choice. in the past most woman are not educated and being a housewife is their default job. with so with progress they have a choice. work or stay home. so to me thats progress.
wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?
does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?
and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?
and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?
singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.
only time will tell.
as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.
wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
I think yes, at least those who bought it cheap can sell it now, then stay in Malaysia and become millionaire
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
Value Appreciated Asset of more than 2.5% a year is definitely better than Money in CPF. All are consider as asset but asset will higher return rate is definitely better.
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
When you say lower HDB price, I believe you do not mean the HDB have no appreciate in value over time. If HDB Value increase over time, then I would say, higher HDB price will equate to more CPF after you sell your HDB.
Or, best way is don't buy HDB but rent from Govn, then your CPF is all there earning 2.5% a year from Govn. So you could retired earlier using your CPF money only.
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?
If retirees own a HDB, say 4 rooms, at the current market, he can rent out 2 rooms and have income of say 1,400 per month. I believe with rental money and CPF money and money from children (if lucky). He do not need to downgrade at all. Unless he want to cash out lump sum profit he made from HDB.
does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?
In 80s, flat is mostly 3 rooms or 4 rooms, how to downgrade, with the price is so low? The retirees can downgrade now, because of price of the HDB.
and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?
Market will balance by itself. If not, govn will balance it every 4 years so that govn will still be in power.
The vast majority of citizens are flat owners, and it's only logical that everyone desires the value of the asset appreciating. Talking down property prices is simply value destruction.
Everyone needs to account for inflation when comparing past property prices. We all pay interest, time is indeed money.
For those who have yet to own their property, the govt has subsidy schemes to help them achieve their dream. Such schemes like 90% concessionary loans, first timer grants, are specifically targeted at non home owners.
We should make a clear distinction between someone wishing for a chance to own a home, vs someone wishing for prices to drop.
The main gripe is really about standard of living, not property prices per se.
The govt should focus on lowering the overall cost of living, resulting in improved standard of living. Govt grants for first timers should be substantially raised. If ppl chose to cash out after MOP, that is their free market decision.
For the past 30 years, demand has far exceeded demand. Over the next 2 years, project completions are expected to peak and there should be sufficient supply. The question is whether the supply and demand curve will actually meet!
Sigh....govt is playing with fire. Giving unrealistic expectations to the people.
"dont sell ur hdb flat".
People expect all hdb flats to be SERs, never noticing the S part of sers.
Again,off my head, now new hdb is like 5-6x of median annual income.
when talking abt increasing value of hdb, to what value will the multiplier be? 7-8x ?
Looks like everybody want hdb to increase in price.
anybody wang to give indicative figures in 2030, what multiplier of median income will hdb be? Still 5-6x or 7-8x?
thomastansb
08-05-14, 09:45
wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
No stats. Just simple logic. Buy 50k, sell 600k.
HDB is the only asset? CPF not an asset?
I can stay in HDB and the price appreciate. I don't know if you can do the same with CPF.
lower HDB price doesnt equate to more CPF available?
Yes. If you buy low, you have more money left. If you sell high, you have even more money.
why does retirees need to downgrade? is it because their CPF tied up in HDB and not enough for retirement? by downgrading, their CPF is thus unlocked?
It is an option not a need. Why do you see it as a need? If I am not rich, at least I have an appreciating asset.
does retirees in 80s need to downgrade?
why retirees now need to downgrade?
I don't know. I was born in early 80s. Anyway, they don't need to downgrade. They have an option to downgrade if needed. Many retirees are staying in landed so depends on how much money you made/saved up.
and how much more do u want to see HDB price increase to?
increase to 6x median annual income?
increase to 8x median annual income?
increase to 10x median annual income?
I don't know. I guess as long as the market can accept it. The resale prices is difficult to control.
and to those who say govt will take back before HDB lease ends because there is SERS.
does anybody here notice there is the word Selective in SERS?
Too bad then.
singapore is a young country. HDB lease not yet run the full course. then we or rather our grandchildren will see SHTF.
by then, the minister who said "dont sell your hdb" would be long dead and he can no longer be held accountable.
I won't speculate too much. What if there is a third world war? So many what if. Never ending.
only time will tell.
as you said, it is stupid to be cassandra, nobody wants to hear the bad news.
wow, really got statistics to show people are better off with higher HDB prices?
thomastansb
08-05-14, 09:49
I haven't seen a single case of a HDB being taken back. So I don't know what you are talking about here. Unless it has happened, then I think we shouldn't talk too much cock here and speculate the unknowns.
Actually I want HDB to drop so those who ask for prices to drop will repent and I can get one cheaply without MOP (hopefully) and rent out for life. In fact, it has already happened. Some areas dropping 100k in 1 year. 4 bedrooms units. Too bad. You get what you ask for isn't it? So suck it up.
Sigh....govt is playing with fire. Giving unrealistic expectations to the people.
"dont sell ur hdb flat".
People expect all hdb flats to be SERs, never noticing the S part of sers.
Again,off my head, now new hdb is like 5-6x of median annual income.
when talking abt increasing value of hdb, to what value will the multiplier be? 7-8x ?
Looks like everybody want hdb to increase in price.
anybody wang to give indicative figures in 2030, what multiplier of median income will hdb be? Still 5-6x or 7-8x?
Sigh....govt is playing with fire. Giving unrealistic expectations to the people.
"dont sell ur hdb flat".
People expect all hdb flats to be SERs, never noticing the S part of sers.
Again,off my head, now new hdb is like 5-6x of median annual income.
when talking abt increasing value of hdb, to what value will the multiplier be? 7-8x ?
Looks like everybody want hdb to increase in price.
anybody wang to give indicative figures in 2030, what multiplier of median income will hdb be? Still 5-6x or 7-8x?
I don't think the advice not to sell the HDB is a bad advice. many people donno what to do with the $. look at those who sell out and hoping to buy cheap again? been waiting from 2009 till now. I foresee them continue to wait before giving up.
those who actually know what they are doing sell to down grade ( cash out n retire) , upgrade , or even take the $ to go do a business are still better of than those sell and wait hoping for a crash to enter.
some simply sell spend the $ then regret selling. So I take that advice as fair warning. but if I choose to sell then I better know what I am doing.
Amber Woods
08-05-14, 10:57
The advice by the great man not to sell your HDB flats was probably correct during the era of GCT (overlapped by LKY) where asset enhancement was the key to building our economy and provide a hedge against inflation during the time of high growth high inflation.
Now that we are moving towards a slower and low growth mature economy, that thinking is now not relevant. We cannot have a slower economy yet asset pricing continues to over run wages and economic growth. The economy will run into trouble at some point in time.
Those who can quickly adjust to the new normal will have a head start to accumulate and/or preserve your wealth.
The rich do not just get richer, they know how to adjust faster than the average Joe.
walkthetiger
08-05-14, 12:47
[QUOTE=Amber Woods;477588
Those who can quickly adjust to the new normal will have a head start to accumulate and/or preserve your wealth.
...know how to adjust faster than the average Joe.[/QUOTE]
.....words of wisdom indeed....being able to sense what is happening and foresee a little more of the coming ...
Sentiment is changing....those many words to praise property just don't feel the same now...people receive it differently now....the right words have to appear at right time
The advice by the great man not to sell your HDB flats was probably correct during the era of GCT (overlapped by LKY) where asset enhancement was the key to building our economy and provide a hedge against inflation during the time of high growth high inflation.
Now that we are moving towards a slower and low growth mature economy, that thinking is now not relevant. We cannot have a slower economy yet asset pricing continues to over run wages and economic growth. The economy will run into trouble at some point in time.
Those who can quickly adjust to the new normal will have a head start to accumulate and/or preserve your wealth.
The rich do not just get richer, they know how to adjust faster than the average Joe.
frankly I don't see whats the problem of raising assets price. Even if singapore don't the global inflation happens and that will push the inflation forward. The question is the impact to the avg joe. Avg joe buys direct from HDB which is subsidised thats fine. The avg joe would be happy that his/her assets continue to be inflationary hedged.
As for the right subsidy that can be tuned to help with the avg joe or below avg joe to get ahead.
So I don't see whats the problem. The truly rich never cares about HDB. but there are people who started as avg joe or below avg joe owning a HDB and later making it big later. We should not penalise then for getting ahead n doing well. They work for it after all.
Amber Woods
08-05-14, 13:52
Sister Leeds would be the best person to enlighten us in this area given her strong foundation in economics. I do miss her contributions toward this forum.
I follow DPM Tharman's messages very closely and understand the basic economic challenges of managing an economy. Tharman is probably the one politician we should take him seriously. He know his stuffs and is very convincing.
If you have read his past messages, you would understand why the need for the policy change.
Sorry! I am too lazy to provide you with the links.
I don't think the advice not to sell the HDB is a bad advice. many people donno what to do with the $. look at those who sell out and hoping to buy cheap again? been waiting from 2009 till now. I foresee them continue to wait before giving up.
those who actually know what they are doing sell to down grade ( cash out n retire) , upgrade , or even take the $ to go do a business are still better of than those sell and wait hoping for a crash to enter.
some simply sell spend the $ then regret selling. So I take that advice as fair warning. but if I choose to sell then I better know what I am doing.
Sister Leeds would be the best person to enlighten us in this area given her strong foundation in economics. I do miss her contributions toward this forum.
I follow DPM Tharman's messages very closely and understand the basic economic challenges of managing an economy. Tharman is probably the one politician we should take him seriously. He know his stuffs and is very convincing.
If you have read his past messages, you would understand why the need for the policy change.
Sorry! I am too lazy to provide you with the links.
yes I do follow what thaman is saying. economy is changing but some fundamental are still the same.
I feel its not possible to cover everyone needs from all angle with the government policies.
and I agree with u the first movers will always be the resourceful but there will some smart ones. But in the same breath the general public are usually the ones that resist change too.
Amber Woods
08-05-14, 20:23
You are right that the general public are usually the ones that resist change hence all these cooling measures are aim at them to "stop" them rather than to make them understand.
The noises that we heard that property prices should be kept high are mostly from the top 20% (multiple property owners) and not the general public. This minority is always much more vocal than the general public and hence very often a distorted view of the situation is presented instead.
The government is now focusing on the silence majority and I think they are getting it right this time round.
yes I do follow what thaman is saying. economy is changing but some fundamental are still the same.
I feel its not possible to cover everyone needs from all angle with the government policies.
and I agree with u the first movers will always be the resourceful but there will some smart ones. But in the same breath the general public are usually the ones that resist change too.
thomastansb
08-05-14, 22:10
There is a big problem. Some people eye red. So they say, make HDB lower. So we can buy low and sell high. Ya, talk without thinking. Your parents not flat owners ah. Anyway, now price dropping every month. Let's see how long can people hold out before complaining. You get what you ask for, so don't complain too much.
frankly I don't see whats the problem of raising assets price. Even if singapore don't the global inflation happens and that will push the inflation forward. The question is the impact to the avg joe. Avg joe buys direct from HDB which is subsidised thats fine. The avg joe would be happy that his/her assets continue to be inflationary hedged.
As for the right subsidy that can be tuned to help with the avg joe or below avg joe to get ahead.
So I don't see whats the problem. The truly rich never cares about HDB. but there are people who started as avg joe or below avg joe owning a HDB and later making it big later. We should not penalise then for getting ahead n doing well. They work for it after all.
CondoInterested
09-05-14, 09:47
Continue letting HDB flat owners buy private property
I DISAGREE with Ms Chan Suan Yen ("Why condo units are shrinking"; Wednesday).
First, she said private developers of smaller condominium units are meeting the demand from buyers who cannot afford the quantum for larger units, because they are holding on to their HDB flats.
If we compare today's per square foot (psf) prices with past figures, we will realise that private developers are shrinking condo units to cap selling prices and to maximise profits.
Shrinking units affect not only existing HDB flat owners wishing to purchase a second property, but also first-time home buyers and investors. We should look into reducing the psf price so that private developers can go back to building larger units at the same price, instead of getting HDB flat owners to raise cash through selling their homes to pay even higher quanta to the developers.
Second, Ms Chan said it is unfair for an HDB flat owner to be allowed to buy private property without disposing of his HDB unit, when private property owners are banned from buying HDB flats.
The subsidy for a new HDB flat is not handed out frivolously and comes with a string attached in the form of the minimum occupation period (MOP) of five years.
If we assume that it takes three years to build a flat, a buyer would not be able to purchase a second property for eight years, after factoring in the MOP. The opportunity cost is indeed high.
Hence, we should not deprive HDB flat owners who have fulfilled the MOP of the opportunity to buy a second property when they are finally able to do so.
If we wish to allow an existing private property owner to buy an HDB flat, then we should subject him to the same MOP, whereby he cannot buy a third property, or sell/rent out his HDB flat during that period. Alternatively, we could
remove the MOP for first-time HDB flat buyers. Only then will it be fair to both parties.
Chiam Tat Ang
Drawback of selling flats to buy bigger private units
PUBLISHED ON ST FORUM ON MAY 9, 2014 12:28 AM 0 5 0 0
IT HAS been decades since the HDB was set up with the mission of providing affordable homes for Singaporeans ("Why condo units are shrinking" by Ms Chan Suan Yen; Wednesday).
Since then, we have gone from Third World to First in terms of lifestyle and wealth.
Many HDB residents have become rich enough to upgrade to private property. Others choose to invest in small private properties to rent out for passive income.
It is unwise to suggest that they be made to sell their flats so they can purchase bigger private apartments. If their circumstances change, they would be in big trouble. Buying an HDB flat then would be difficult and they may even be left without a roof over their heads.
It seems the only avenue of investment most of us know of is purchasing property for renting out. There is either a lack of alternative forms of investment here, or a lack of knowledge of these options.
Foreigners working in Singapore and their families create demand for smaller and cheaper apartments. Singaporeans are wise to capitalise on this demand.
Frederick Ho
Summary
We are hopeful that HDB flat dwellers looking to upgrade to newer condominiums will have more bargaining room when negotiating their purchase terms with potential sellers on price terms, as they are relatively newer developments. However, we believe that financing costs are expected to head higher as interest rates look to appreciate. Furthermore, as unemployment rates among Professionals, Managers, Engineers, and Technicians (PMETs) have recently started to rise up, middle class households will be most impacted as budgets get tightened, and housing affordability levels might fall, thus limiting any upgrading plans.
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