View Full Version : BBC news:'No Indians No PRCs': Singapore's rental discrimination problem
princess_morbucks
02-05-14, 10:22
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26832115?OCID=twitterasia
When Sunil first moved to Singapore, he had trouble finding an apartment.
"I called up several landlords who had listed rooms for rent," Sunil, a Sri Lankan who spent eight years living in the UK, said.
"Things would start out OK, maybe because of my [Western] accent - but the moment they heard my name, they'd blank out. Many said 'sorry, we don't rent to these people', or 'sorry, no room for Indians'."
Sunil, a civil engineer who arrived in 2012, said he was rejected by at least four landlords.
"I told them that Sri Lanka was not India, that I wouldn't eat or cook in the apartment, and that I would be outside all day. But still, they wouldn't offer me a room," he said.
"At that point, I got fed up and decided to only try Indian landlords. I was invited to viewings right away."
'Cleanliness and culture'
Sunil is not alone. A quick glance at online rental listings shows many that include the words: "no Indians, no PRCs [People's Republic of China]", sometimes followed by the word "sorry".
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/74280000/png/_74280126_propertyguruprintscreen.png
This print screen from PropertyGuru shows a property listing with the words 'No Indians/PRCs'
A count on 24 April found that there were more than 160 housing adverts on the website PropertyGuru that clearly stated that the landlord did not wish to rent to Indians and/or mainland Chinese.
The issue appears more common with less expensive properties and on sites where content is posted directly by users, such as Gumtree.
It is not clear how many foreign workers have been affected. However, several expatriates have described experiencing varying levels of discrimination.
One Indian expat said his agent told him that many landlords would refuse to rent to him because "Indians always cook smelly curries". Another Briton of South Asian descent did not experience any direct discrimination, but was warned by his agent that some landlords could be difficult.
It was something I experienced too, albeit indirectly. When I searched for a flat, my housing agent received a phone call from one landlord who was worried that I was from mainland China, presumably after they learned about my Chinese ethnicity.
I listened to them discussing my background for what felt like an agonisingly long time. After she hung up, I asked her if it would reassure the landlord if they knew I was British.
"It doesn't matter," she said. "They may still think you're a PRC who obtained a British passport."
Mathew Mathews, a senior research fellow at the Institute of Policy Studies, says: "There are stereotypes that people have about different immigrant groups and how responsible they are in terms of the upkeep of a rented apartment.
"There are notions of which groups take care of their homes better, and what cooking supposedly leaves permanent smells in the house. People have notions about what would devalue the property."
Charlene, an estate agent, said it was common for landlords to prefer not to rent to tenants from India or mainland China because such tenants "are not people who are house proud".
"Many don't clean weekly, and they do heavy cooking, so dust and oil collect over the months. They may use a lot of spices that release smells people don't like."
There are also fears that those tenants will illegally sublet to others, she said, adding: "Cleanliness and culture is a very strong factor."
Another estate agent made similar points, saying that landlords were less willing to rent to Indian and mainland Chinese tenants as they believed they would not maintain the property well.
'Private spheres'
Singapore is an ethnically diverse nation, consisting of 74% Chinese, 13% Malay, 9% Indian and 3% from other groups. However, as 90% of Singaporean households own their homes, a significant portion of renters are foreigners.
Immigration has also become a sensitive issue, amid concern over living costs and rising housing prices, which many locals blame on foreigners.
Eugene Tan, Associate Professor of Law at Singapore Management University, says: "In the current state of ambivalence towards immigration in Singapore, my sense is that race and country of origin have taken on a stronger accent with regards to how landlords may view Indian/PRC tenants."
Singapore's government places a strong emphasis on racial harmony. Studies suggest that there is relatively little racial discrimination in the public sphere, but things can be different in private.
"The Singaporean state has considerably influenced Singaporeans' willingness to work and be alongside those who are racially different," Dr Mathews says. "Singaporeans have learned to accept the realities of living in a multi-racial and multi-religious society. The private sphere, however, is one which the state has not tried to influence."
A landlord's choice of tenants "would probably fall within people's private spheres in terms of who they would choose to come into their home space".
Attitudes to race came to the fore in December, when hundreds of foreign workers from India and South Asia rioted after an Indian national was killed in a bus accident. The incident sparked a strong response on social media - many made comments denouncing foreign workers, although many others also spoke out against racism.
Legal gap?
Of course, rental discrimination exists in many countries. A BBC study in October found that several estate agencies in London would refuse to rent to African-Caribbean people at the landlord's request.
However, while the UK has legislation banning discrimination on ethnic or nationality grounds, covering situations including "buying or renting property", Singapore offers fewer legal protections.
"There is no specific anti-discrimination law that can be used by non-citizens," says Prof Tan.
"Even if there is an anti-discrimination law, there is the challenge of proving discrimination… Indication of tenant preferences in rental advertisements may not amount to discrimination."
In a statement, PropertyGuru said discrimination on the basis of ethnicity or nationality was "absolutely not" allowed under its guidelines.
"There is a whistle-blowing feature for viewers... to report [content] that may be objectionable or derogatory," it said, and objectionable statements would be removed.
Around 1% of listings on its site contained objectionable content, it added.
The Council for Estate Agencies (CEA), a government body that regulates the real estate agency industry, has guidelines stating that agents should "advise their clients against placing advertisements that are discriminatory, offensive or stereotyped in nature against any particular race, religion or group in society".
In a statement, the CEA and the Ministry of National Development said: "We do not condone racial discrimination. There are advertising guidelines in place.
"Some landlords have explained that they face practical considerations renting out their properties, leading to certain requirements in rental transactions."
The statement added: "The Government will continue educational efforts on the importance of mutual respect to preserve ethnic harmony."
Prof Tan believes that the discrimination will reduce over time.
"With more apartments coming on stream in the next few years, landlords cannot afford to be so choosey," he says.
Sunil also believes that views may change over the decades.
"All the landlords who rejected me were from older generations, but I find I'm not treated differently at work, where the people are younger. I think attitudes are changing, it will just take some time."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26832115?OCID=twitterasia
Strange it is reported on BBC, many white land lords also dicriminate Asians.
Pot calling kettle black.
Anyway discrmination exists everywhere and will always be there, so deal with it. Not happy? dun come to Singapore....simple!
thomastansb
02-05-14, 13:07
You mean we can't choose tenants? Hello, we own the properties. Let's say I got a few super bad experiences with certain tenants, I can't avoid them?
Not true, I got a Indian Tenant. Just because a few bad apples, you don't say the whole lot are bad.
Not true, I got a Indian Tenant. Just because a few bad apples, you don't say the whole lot are bad.
Many agents themselves told me they avoid serving Indian tenants. Say poor attitude and unrealistically demanding. Of cos not all but as usual just some bad apples.
princess_morbucks
02-05-14, 21:50
How come lately BBC news is so interested in our housing issues?
Renting out our house is a personal choice.
Nothing to do with discrimination.
It depends Indian from where. I have encounter the very educated ones. They are ok.
Frankly. I view investment property as investment. Hit a specific yield that's it. Others factors I will just load a bit of mgmt risk on it. Nothing can't be fix wig a reprint n cost to clean up the place.
As long the place is not burned down or total destroyed. Some assessment on risk n yield previl. Don't get overly attached to a property which i find many 1st time landlord are.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with landlords wanting to choose tenants whom they think can take better care of their properties regardless of their nationalities or ethnic groups. It's the landlords' properties after all, isn't it? It is not a case of racial discrimination but rather cultural differences and personal preferences.
stalingrad
03-05-14, 07:43
I see absolutely nothing wrong with landlords wanting to choose tenants whom they think can take better care of their properties regardless of their nationalities or ethnic groups. It's the landlords' properties after all, isn't it? It is not a case of racial discrimination but rather cultural differences and personal preferences.
Singapore is actually a very very racist country. I lived there for 17 years and heard derogatory slurs against members of the minorities that Americans or Canadians wouldn't dream of using. Discrimination against members of the minorities in housing and employment are openly tolerated to an extent that I really think is apprehensible. The victims of the racist attitudes are mostly PRC chinese, Indians, the Bangladesh and vietnamese. But Singaporeans like Caucasians and Japanese.
Singapore is actually a very very racist country. I lived there for 17 years and heard derogatory slurs against members of the minorities that Americans or Canadians wouldn't dream of using. Discrimination against members of the minorities in housing and employment are openly tolerated to an extent that I really think is apprehensible. The victims of the racist attitudes are mostly PRC chinese, Indians, the Bangladesh and vietnamese. But Singaporeans like Caucasians and Japanese.
due to the colonial history?
my experience indians are great tenants:cheers1:...but horrible neighbours:simmering::simmering::simmering:
Allthepies
03-05-14, 14:57
Ang mo can go anywhere plunder native lands and it is alright..
Some rightful singaporean owners decide to choose who to rent to cannot..
case close..not worth discussion
Ang mo can go anywhere plunder native lands and it is alright..
Some rightful singaporean owners decide to choose who to rent to cannot..
case close..not worth discussion
LIKE YOUR POST
Singapore is actually a very very racist country. I lived there for 17 years and heard derogatory slurs against members of the minorities that Americans or Canadians wouldn't dream of using. Discrimination against members of the minorities in housing and employment are openly tolerated to an extent that I really think is apprehensible. The victims of the racist attitudes are mostly PRC chinese, Indians, the Bangladesh and vietnamese. But Singaporeans like Caucasians and Japanese.
Esteemed university professor! Great to see you again. Owner own the property, free market, they want to rent to who is their problem. You economic expert right? Free market you know is simi?
stalingrad
03-05-14, 19:14
Esteemed university professor! Great to see you again. Owner own the property, free market, they want to rent to who is their problem. You economic expert right? Free market you know is simi?
There are no limits to your and your Singaporeans' ignorance and prejudice.
Many agents themselves told me they avoid serving Indian tenants. Say poor attitude and unrealistically demanding. Of cos not all but as usual just some bad apples.
Out of the 5 India tenants... Only 1 is not demanding..rest want this n that... Made my mum so headache...N out of 5, 2 and the most recent 1 literally left her home like a dump..with months of leftover food, body DNA like hair skin etc.. Bad smell...She is so angry that they turned her place upside down n had to fork out over 500 bucks to clean up the mess!!
Instead of jumping into conclusion.. Should consider the experience..N the culture of these people. They wear shoes into the flat n don't clean up..perhaps it's their culture.
Of course I can argue that her sample size too small to come into any conclusion.. But honestly after these bad experience...my mum hesitate to rent to Indian right?
I don't think it's about racial discrimination.. It's really about the culture.:beats-me-man:
Out of the 5 India tenants... Only 1 is not demanding..rest want this n that... Made my mum so headache...N out of 5, 2 and the most recent 1 literally left her home like a dump..with months of leftover food, body DNA like hair skin etc.. Bad smell...She is so angry that they turned her place upside down n had to fork out over 500 bucks to clean up the mess!!
Instead of jumping into conclusion.. Should consider the experience..N the culture of these people. They wear shoes into the flat n don't clean up..perhaps it's their culture.
Of course I can argue that her sample size too small to come into any conclusion.. But honestly after these bad experience...my mum hesitate to rent to Indian right?
I don't think it's about racial discrimination.. It's really about the culture.:beats-me-man:
That's right, if you never hit the nail, you will never know the pain. I agree that it is not the discrimination, it is their bad habits that cause all the rejection. Of course, not all Indians/PRC are like that, but I think most tenants do not wish to take their risk after so much hearing, maybe from friends/relatives or they have experienced it themselves. Once bitten, twice shy!
I also told my agent that I do not want to rent to Indians/PRC :D but in the end I still rent to an Indian couple because I met them personally and find that they are very polite and professional. My male tenant even asked me whether can he put an aluminum foil on the wall near to my cooker in case they might dirty the wall while cooking.:cheers1:
Singapore's government places a strong emphasis on racial harmony. Studies suggest that there is relatively little racial discrimination in the public sphere, but things can be different in private.
"The Singaporean state has considerably influenced Singaporeans' willingness to work and be alongside those who are racially different," Dr Mathews says. "Singaporeans have learned to accept the realities of living in a multi-racial and multi-religious society. The private sphere, however, is one which the state has not tried to influence."
A landlord's choice of tenants "would probably fall within people's private spheres in terms of who they would choose to come into their home space".
I would think that they can work well publicly is because it didn't really affect their personal benefits, so is this what it terms as non-discrimination over here? Whereas for pte sector because owners want to protect their homes and therefore choose tenants, it then considered as discrimination?
I had come across a case, Mr A (delivery man) was given a fixed transport allowance to do the delivery. But most of the times, he refused to help his colleagues to deliver the goods because he felt that he had to use his own transport allowance. But he never think that company's gave him this allowance was to cover his petrol, in his mind, this was his allowance. So I would say that as long as it affects a person personal benefits, outcome can be very different.
Many agents themselves told me they avoid serving Indian tenants. Say poor attitude and unrealistically demanding. Of cos not all but as usual just some bad apples.
Haha, one of my agents is different, actually she is a PRC, married to a Singaporean. She said Professional Indians are ok because most of her tenants that she found are Indians. I think most agents also want to get a good tenant for his/her clients to save lots of troubles later on. But some other agents say you need to have a thorough cleanup after they shift out. I hope I need not to.:tsk-tsk:
There are no limits to your and your Singaporeans' ignorance and prejudice.
but you also pot calling the kettle black, you aren't fantastic yourself too :D:D:D:D:D:D
Singapore is actually a very very racist country. I lived there for 17 years and heard derogatory slurs against members of the minorities that Americans or Canadians wouldn't dream of using. Discrimination against members of the minorities in housing and employment are openly tolerated to an extent that I really think is apprehensible. The victims of the racist attitudes are mostly PRC chinese, Indians, the Bangladesh and vietnamese. But Singaporeans like Caucasians and Japanese.
oh pleeeassee. Get real. Racism exists everywhere. Just 50-60 years back in the US blacks weren t even allowed even to sit in buses with the whites. And where did the term colonialism come from? Thats right from the whites in europe who were happily subjugating Asian countries in the past and plundering their resources. Oh wait weren t some pretty racist remarks passed when the first black president came to the fore in the states?
Why do you think Americans wouldn t even dream of using it? Its because of that terrible piece of history and the threat of a serious lawsuit hanging over your head if you happen to use it.
Again who were the dudes who armed Al quaeda and osama bin laden during the cold war with the soviets? And than lead a war of "freedom and democracy" against the terrorists. I think it roughly read CIA. Life is filled with hypocrisies. Time to learn to see through the fog.....
That's right, if you never hit the nail, you will never know the pain. I agree that it is not the discrimination, it is their bad habits that cause all the rejection. Of course, not all Indians/PRC are like that, but I think most tenants do not wish to take their risk after so much hearing, maybe from friends/relatives or they have experienced it themselves. Once bitten, twice shy!
I also told my agent that I do not want to rent to Indians/PRC :D but in the end I still rent to an Indian couple because I met them personally and find that they are very polite and professional. My male tenant even asked me whether can he put an aluminum foil on the wall near to my cooker in case they might dirty the wall while cooking.:cheers1:
My mum is not a racist at all...she has no issues to rent out to any race...just that after so many incidents with them...we came to a conclusion that their habits and livestyle is very different.
During our quarterly meetings with them, the discussion will center around asking them to upkeep the property after we saw them dirtied the walls with food and never bother to clean them...the last tenant lagi best...never throw the food away when the food has gone bad.just leave on the tables etc. eat dinner on the beds and the food crumbs everywhere....
When we pointed these to them...their answer? "This is very clean! What more do you want from me?! In india we never keep this clean!! We wear shoes everywhere!" :tsk-tsk:
Then what can we do? :banghead:
N although I kept telling my mum...even if ang mo also got very bad habits what we should nevergeneralise..just our luck or..But even I started to doubt myself when the tenants kept repeating the same thing!!
90% of Singaporean own the property We live in. We do not have a rent culture...and thus our expectations are very different. We do not wear shoes and walk into our flats..to us...clean means floor mopped sparkling clean...to them as long as there are no rubbish on the floor can liao. The dust and dirt is not an issue since they wear shoes!! :rolleyes:
So the article is damn unfair...I feel they purposely want to sensationalize to catch attention without looking into the real situation. :2cents:
The cost of renting to them is actually higher since we have to clean up the property before any prospective tenants come to view.
And naturally..after so many abuse...the rental will become lower when they complain walls so yellow got patches...not clean...floor got scratches..fridge got bad smell etc...:banghead:
stalingrad
04-05-14, 02:58
oh pleeeassee. Get real. Racism exists everywhere. Just 50-60 years back in the US blacks weren t even allowed even to sit in buses with the whites. And where did the term colonialism come from? Thats right from the whites in europe who were happily subjugating Asian countries in the past and plundering their resources. Oh wait weren t some pretty racist remarks passed when the first black president came to the fore in the states?
Why do you think Americans wouldn t even dream of using it? Its because of that terrible piece of history and the threat of a serious lawsuit hanging over your head if you happen to use it.
Again who were the dudes who armed Al quaeda and osama bin laden during the cold war with the soviets? And than lead a war of "freedom and democracy" against the terrorists. I think it roughly read CIA. Life is filled with hypocrisies. Time to learn to see through the fog.....
Of course, racism is everywhere. It is probably part of human nature. But in western countries, there are laws against discrimination. One cannot openly discriminate against certain racial groups in housing or employment. Otherwise, the full force of the law will be applied. In Singapore, you can exclude persons in certain age groups, racial groups, gender groups in your want ads and rental ads. That is just unheard of in Canada and United States. Open discrimination based on gender, sex and race is openly tolerated in Singapore, and that is a fact.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike Singapore. I lived there with my family for 17 years. But I find many things, including overt discrimination in housing and employment, very strange to say the least.
stalingrad
04-05-14, 03:14
I also find Singaporeans totally lacking in social grace and compassion. We owned a car when we lived in Singapore. But we took the train every now and then as my two young boys were fascinated by trains. My boys were very young and were unable to walk or stand for a long time. I had to stand while holding both of them in my arms as we rode the trains, because no one would give us their seats. Not one! I have often also witnessed very pregnant women (7 to 8 months pregnant) standing on the train with everyone refusing to acknowledge their presence. The standard strategy of the Singapore in this situation is to pretend to be sleeping.
Again, I am not criticizing. Just telling the truth.
I also went to your country.
We took the bus and we saw no one, I really meant no one gave up seats for the pregnant lady.
It sadden me and in the end, me, a singaporean gave up the seat for the pregnant lady.
The part on the country,,,,, you can just fill in any country that you claw out from
The beauty of internet is........everyone is a good story teller:D:D:D
walkthetiger
04-05-14, 09:26
I also went to your country.
We took the bus and we saw no one, I really meant no one gave up seats for the pregnant lady.
It sadden me and in the end, me, a singaporean gave up the seat for the pregnant lady.
The part on the country,,,,, you can just fill in any country that you claw out from
The beauty of internet is........everyone is a good story teller:D:D:D
Forget about those overseas teachers, just see how they make a living, many got their view sunk into some beautiful theories basing on ideal cases, I had seen enough of these people as well. I feel they should behave humbly in the country that provides them money, and their people who provided them their job also, hope they realized. Should stop acting like they knew everything the best for Singaporean, but many think it that way, they ain't high up in singapore, they are only paid to teach a specific subject, so it means their worth to us can be easily replaced by another one from other countries, right?
Be real, ugly things also happen everywhere.
We are all here to discuss property, aren’t we? No need to stir up this matter. Let this thing end here.
The 2 months deposit can be deducted and pay for all the defects repair caused by the tenants right?
It's's just that the tenant might not agree that the defects are not caused by them. Thats where the complications arise.
Out of the 5 India tenants... Only 1 is not demanding..rest want this n that... Made my mum so headache...N out of 5, 2 and the most recent 1 literally left her home like a dump..with months of leftover food, body DNA like hair skin etc.. Bad smell...She is so angry that they turned her place upside down n had to fork out over 500 bucks to clean up the mess!!
Instead of jumping into conclusion.. Should consider the experience..N the culture of these people. They wear shoes into the flat n don't clean up..perhaps it's their culture.
Of course I can argue that her sample size too small to come into any conclusion.. But honestly after these bad experience...my mum hesitate to rent to Indian right?
I don't think it's about racial discrimination.. It's really about the culture.:beats-me-man:
I had similar experience on prc, they wear slipper in the house and do not bother to clean up the common place.:simmering: They will take care of their own rooms.
princess_morbucks
04-05-14, 12:56
I also went to your country.
We took the bus and we saw no one, I really meant no one gave up seats for the pregnant lady.
It sadden me and in the end, me, a singaporean gave up the seat for the pregnant lady.
The part on the country,,,,, you can just fill in any country that you claw out from
The beauty of internet is........everyone is a good story teller:D:D:D
My aunt who lives in a rich and developed western country told me that in it is common to find dog poo in the park over there.
When she returned to Singapore for her holiday, she marvelled at how clean our parks are.
Aiyah
don't be so calculative la
PM said Singapore belongs to all who live here
Addressing a community celebration of the Indian New Year last night, Lee said: "Singaporeans, new arrivals, people who are on permanent residence here, people who are on employment pass here, all participating in one big Singapore family... So that we feel that this is a place which is special, which belongs to all of us and where we all celebrate one another's festivals and happy events together."
I had similar experience on prc, they wear slipper in the house and do not bother to clean up the common place.:simmering: They will take care of their own rooms.
Duplicate post
I had similar experience on prc, they wear slipper in the house and do not bother to clean up the common place.:simmering: They will take care of their own rooms.
My friend had a bad experience with the PRC too but on his landed property. Rent to few PRC workers and end up, the floors filled with unfinished food packets with cockroaches and insects crawling all over the place on their last day.
Another to PRC also, a 3 room flat. When the owner received back the key, got a shock, the toilet looked like a public toilet, a thick layer of "dirt" surrounded inside the toilet bowl.:simmering:
So, just imagine, who would dare to take the risk to rent to these type of people. Of course there are also some good one lah, but we don't know who is good and who is bad mah, so can avoid better avoid, prevention is better than cure.:Dj
Patrickstar
04-05-14, 14:11
There is a reason why people don't want to rent to PRC or Indians. If these groups are good tenants, why would people not want to rent to them? There is no smoke without fire.
Of course, racism is everywhere. It is probably part of human nature. But in western countries, there are laws against discrimination. One cannot openly discriminate against certain racial groups in housing or employment. Otherwise, the full force of the law will be applied. In Singapore, you can exclude persons in certain age groups, racial groups, gender groups in your want ads and rental ads. That is just unheard of in Canada and United States. Open discrimination based on gender, sex and race is openly tolerated in Singapore, and that is a fact.
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike Singapore. I lived there with my family for 17 years. But I find many things, including overt discrimination in housing and employment, very strange to say the least.
Alamat, not fair to we, Singaporeans leh. How about Malaysia or some other Asian countries? Do their countries also impose full law for discrimination?
If Singapore are like the Western Countries, each of us can carry a gun, I wonder what will Singapore be by now? So each and every countries have their own cultures, is very unlikely to follow every single one. Even for a small family, each and every one also has their own characters, how can be the same?
Angmoh also sometimes very fussy one you know. An agent told me, his angmoh tenant wanted him to get the mgt to tear down those cover sheets from the lift because it didn't look nice but that apartment had just TOP and still had people shifting in during that time.:doh:
Patrickstar
04-05-14, 15:09
I think discrimination is too heavy a word to use. I would rather see this as freedom of choice. For someone to rent out their homes, it is a very personal thing and they sometimes prefer renting to people they are comfortable with and as to why they are comfortable with one group over the other, it is private and they don't need to explain to anyone.
Well regardless of which race there are bad apples. I rent to a Chinese Singaporean before. Took my curtains , use chlorine on my marble floor and marble toilet floor damaging them. Took my sofa and bed when he moved out too.
So as a landlord its a hit n miss. make sure the risk are factored in and some background check on the tenant is helpful but never full proof.
Just factor the cost of risk and dont get too overly attached to a property.
stalingrad
05-05-14, 02:44
Well regardless of which race there are bad apples. I rent to a Chinese Singaporean before. Took my curtains , use chlorine on my marble floor and marble toilet floor damaging them. Took my sofa and bed when he moved out too.
So as a landlord its a hit n miss. make sure the risk are factored in and some background check on the tenant is helpful but never full proof.
Just factor the cost of risk and dont get too overly attached to a property.
Exactly. There are bad apples in every racial group. The worst you can do is to be a racist but deny it, or have no compassion but pretend to be sleeping when someone needing a seat more than you do gets aboard the train. Singapore has great material successes, but remains in the stone age in terms of social grace and social justice. Another example of this is the poor and weak, who receive zero support from the government and their fellow Singaporeans.
NorthernStar
05-05-14, 06:39
Exactly. There are bad apples in every racial group. The worst you can do is to be a racist but deny it, or have no compassion but pretend to be sleeping when someone needing a seat more than you do gets aboard the train. Singapore has great material successes, but remains in the stone age in terms of social grace and social justice. Another example of this is the poor and weak, who receive zero support from the government and their fellow Singaporeans.
pls, if you have not accessed the welfare system from SG gov, don't simply comment on this.. I knew many ppl who were in needs are receiving helps from social workers, gov subsidies. Many well-doing ppl here just don't know there is a system to take care of this minority group.
Exactly. There are bad apples in every racial group. The worst you can do is to be a racist but deny it, or have no compassion but pretend to be sleeping when someone needing a seat more than you do gets aboard the train. Singapore has great material successes, but remains in the stone age in terms of social grace and social justice. Another example of this is the poor and weak, who receive zero support from the government and their fellow Singaporeans.
When you come across only a few of them who never give up their seats doesn't mean that majority of the Singaporeans are like that.:tsk-tsk: How do you know that those people who never give up their seats are Singaporeans? How about those FW or PRC sitting inside the bus/MRT, do they offer to give up their seats or also pretending that they are doing something else or sleeping?
I had also come across a few. Even PRC also. "Snatched" the seat the moment they stepped into the bus, how I knew they are PRC? because of their accent. I'm not prejudiced against the PRC but just to say that cannot use "one bamboo stick to hit the whole ship".
Another case. I was inside a bus, a couple came up, a man was carrying a baby while his wife was pregnant carrying a big baby bag. Surprisingly, the moment they stepped into the bus, the husband sat on the only chair and left his wife standing.:hell-hath-no-fury: Do you think should his husband gave up the seat to his wife or get someone to give up the seat to this pregnant woman?
Don't say that Singaporeans never give up the seat to people? I had come across a few personally. Offer a seat to me on a few occasions though I'm not that old lah, haha.:D
And I had also come across personally. An Indian woman came up the bus, asked me to stand up and gave her the seat, she was not that old afterall, but I still gave up my seat to her and she was so surprised.:cool:
so, the conclusion is that not all indians or PRCs are bad, and not all Singaporeans are good, or if we change a way of saying that, it may be
indians, PRCs ,and Singaporeans are all humans, they might be equally good or bad.
stalingrad
05-05-14, 08:58
When you come across only a few of them who never give up their seats doesn't mean that majority of the Singaporeans are like that.:tsk-tsk: How do you know that those people who never give up their seats are Singaporeans? How about those FW or PRC sitting inside the bus/MRT, do they offer to give up their seats or also pretending that they are doing something else or sleeping?
I had also come across a few. Even PRC also. "Snatched" the seat the moment they stepped into the bus, how I knew they are PRC? because of their accent. I'm not prejudiced against the PRC but just to say that cannot use "one bamboo stick to hit the whole ship".
Another case. I was inside a bus, a couple came up, a man was carrying a baby while his wife was pregnant carrying a big baby bag. Surprisingly, the moment they stepped into the bus, the husband sat on the only chair and left his wife standing.:hell-hath-no-fury: Do you think should his husband gave up the seat to his wife or get someone to give up the seat to this pregnant woman?
Don't say that Singaporeans never give up the seat to people? I had come across a few personally. Offer a seat to me on a few occasions though I'm not that old lah, haha.:D
And I had also come across personally. An Indian woman came up the bus, asked me to stand up and gave her the seat, she was not that old afterall, but I still gave up my seat to her and she was so surprised.:cool:
I am sorry I never met people like you. While I can't make such a blanket statement as "no Singaporeans have given up their seats to the more needy ever", I for one was never offered a seat when I took my two boys on the train. It is a fact. I also found it very disgusting the way Singaporeans ran to grab seats the moment they got on the train. They ran faster than Carl Lewis in man's one hundred meters. Many brushed aside whoever dared to compete with them. I have to score your country very low on social grace. Such spectacles are seldom encountered in other countries, except China.
thomastansb
05-05-14, 09:45
Then you go Malaysia lor. No one forces you to stay here. Why should you be offered a seat btw? People paid for the fare. First come first serve basis. Should you be offered a plate of chicken rice as well when you go hawker? Or iPhone when you go Apple store? You think you own the world?
I am sorry I never met people like you. While I can't make such a blanket statement as "no Singaporeans have given up their seats to the more needy ever", I for one was never offered a seat when I took my two boys on the train. It is a fact. I also found it very disgusting the way Singaporeans ran to grab seats the moment they got on the train. They ran faster than Carl Lewis in man's one hundred meters. Many brushed aside whoever dared to compete with them. I have to score your country very low on social grace. Such spectacles are seldom encountered in other countries, except China.
I also find Singaporeans totally lacking in social grace and compassion. We owned a car when we lived in Singapore. But we took the train every now and then as my two young boys were fascinated by trains. My boys were very young and were unable to walk or stand for a long time. I had to stand while holding both of them in my arms as we rode the trains, because no one would give us their seats. Not one! I have often also witnessed very pregnant women (7 to 8 months pregnant) standing on the train with everyone refusing to acknowledge their presence. The standard strategy of the Singapore in this situation is to pretend to be sleeping.
Again, I am not criticizing. Just telling the truth.
If only you have met me
would have given up my seat to you
but I do not travel by train often
once a while going to the airport
Then you go Malaysia lor. No one forces you to stay here. Why should you be offered a seat btw? People paid for the fare. First come first serve basis. Should you be offered a plate of chicken rice as well when you go hawker? Or iPhone when you go Apple store? You think you own the world?
http://cdni.wired.co.uk/620x413/k_n/Like_1.jpg
When I take train and there is a need, I will give up my seat. However, few years ago I took train and all seats were fully occupied but not that crowded. 2 Caucasians and 2 kids came in. The kids were quite big and playing. He could have asked for the seat if he wanted. However, he just squeezed in-between me and a lady. Then within seconds, he spilled water on my clothes and laughing. His mum saw n just continue talking to another friend!
Ungracious ppl are everywhere dude! This is Singapore of course more Singaporeans and more criticisms. I went to Japan and have seen ungracious ppl. I went to Australia and also seen ungracious ppl...etc etc...So?
Somebody thought he super star:p
na bei. Next time i see foreigner. I also say. Why you never give up your seat to me
then I can write real story online........oh shhhhit. I forgot everyone is a good story teller.:D:D:D:p
smellyfish
05-05-14, 11:43
The truth hurts, but if you are renting CCR apts at CCR budget, you get CCR quality people. If you are renting OCR apts at OCR budget, you get OCR quality people.
once (and not if) rental collapse, you will have OCR people renting CCR, HDB renters and work permit holders renting OCR, and a lot of people will be in for a rude shock.
smellyfish
05-05-14, 11:54
my kids love bus rides and train rides so i always take them for rides and I am happy to report that there are a lot of people who give seats to people with young kids, even to a oversized father like me.
dont know why is this an issue....
choosing clients is like choosing fruits/vegetables in supermarket ma... all want to choose the freshest, swee-est one.... same price wor.. who want to take the dirty looking or busok one? if not eat already diahrrea who pay medical fee? i pay not u pay leh...
I am sorry I never met people like you. While I can't make such a blanket statement as "no Singaporeans have given up their seats to the more needy ever", I for one was never offered a seat when I took my two boys on the train. It is a fact. I also found it very disgusting the way Singaporeans ran to grab seats the moment they got on the train. They ran faster than Carl Lewis in man's one hundred meters. Many brushed aside whoever dared to compete with them. I have to score your country very low on social grace. Such spectacles are seldom encountered in other countries, except China.
i can tell the reason you resided here becos you love singapore dollars so much.
Exactly. There are bad apples in every racial group. The worst you can do is to be a racist but deny it, or have no compassion but pretend to be sleeping when someone needing a seat more than you do gets aboard the train. Singapore has great material successes, but remains in the stone age in terms of social grace and social justice. Another example of this is the poor and weak, who receive zero support from the government and their fellow Singaporeans.
You should ask for transfer to malaysia cos after staying here, you started to be like one of us
I am sorry I never met people like you. While I can't make such a blanket statement as "no Singaporeans have given up their seats to the more needy ever", I for one was never offered a seat when I took my two boys on the train. It is a fact. I also found it very disgusting the way Singaporeans ran to grab seats the moment they got on the train. They ran faster than Carl Lewis in man's one hundred meters. Many brushed aside whoever dared to compete with them. I have to score your country very low on social grace. Such spectacles are seldom encountered in other countries, except China.
How old are your boys, 1 year old or 2 years old? If your boys are about 4 or 5 years old, there is likely that not much people will give up their seats to them because they are more energetic than we, adults.
Don't jump to the conclusions that Singaporeans never give up their seats. Never use the word 'NEVER' because there are still some possibility of Singaporeans offering their seats to someone WHO REALLY NEED IT.
Once I was with my sister inside the MRT train. She was sitting while I was standing. Besides her were 2 young PRC ladies. On the next station, a woman with a little boy came in (I think around 2 or 3 yrs old), my sister immediately stood up and offered the seat while the 2 young PRC ladies just 'glue' to their seats. During that time, we had just finished our shopping and our legs were aching, btw my sister is already 60 years old and she has leg problems. So never say the word never. :cool:
Just today, I encounter another case, very disgusting. A young muscular foreign Indian man snatching the seat with an old Indian Singaporean woman. Both reached the seat almost the same time but the man took a bigger step and sat on it. The old woman had no choice,so she stepped back, in the end, a young Singaporean army boy offered his seat to this old woman.
It is a fact. I also found it very disgusting the way Singaporeans ran to grab seats the moment they got on the train. They ran faster than Carl Lewis in man's one hundred meters. Many brushed aside whoever dared to compete with them. I have to score your country very low on social grace. Such spectacles are seldom encountered in other countries, except China.
Since you said 'except China', how can you be very sure that those who ran to grab for the seats are Singaporeans only le. Sometimes I just wondered whether I'm staying in Singapore or China because no matter where I go, there are sure to have PRC. So not surprising that part of those who rush in for their seats belongs to other nationals.
Hi Stalingrad
AGREED with Irisng
Do not use the word Never
I for one give seat up willingly to those in need
even when in hawker centre if approached by old uncle and auntie selling tissue paper
would give them $2 and take from them 1 pack of tissue paper
and I am not alone...have seen many Singaporean doing what I am doing
Hi Stalingrad
AGREED with Irisng
Do not use the word Never
I for one give seat up willingly to those in need
even when in hawker centre if approached by old uncle and auntie selling tissue paper
would give them $2 and take from them 1 pack of tissue paper
and I am not alone...have seen many Singaporean doing what I am doing
Ya, that day just met a woman (around 60+) while having my lunch. She asked me to give her $2 to buy the vegetarian food. I asked her you don't have money? The reason why I asked her was because she wore a gold watch, a trendy spectacles (on her hair), carrying a few marketing plastic bags (like just finished shopping), clothing also very presentable. But in end, I still gave her because afterall she is still an old woman and she looks a bit paiseh asking me for money.
Ya, that day just met a woman (around 60+) while having my lunch. She asked me to give her $2 to buy the vegetarian food. I asked her you don't have money? The reason why I asked her was because she wore a gold watch, a trendy spectacles (on her hair), carrying a few marketing plastic bags (like just finished shopping), clothing also very presentable. But in end, I still gave her because afterall she is still an old woman and she looks a bit paiseh asking me for money.
Don't be surprised
there are many such people like her
you know about the 2 places ?
one in Marina and the other in Sentosa
buying them lunch or dinner is not a problem and nothing else
Hate their habit but not the person
Don't be surprised
there are many such people like her
you know about the 2 places ?
one in Marina and the other in Sentosa
buying them lunch or dinner is not a problem and nothing else
Hate their habit but not the person
Yup, if that's a case, it is really very bad habit. I was thinking only $2 and some more she is an old lady, maybe not working anymore. What happen if she really had no money to eat at that time leh, this $2 can help her to fill up her stomach.
Hi Stalingrad
AGREED with Irisng
Do not use the word Never
I for one give seat up willingly to those in need
even when in hawker centre if approached by old uncle and auntie selling tissue paper
would give them $2 and take from them 1 pack of tissue paper
and I am not alone...have seen many Singaporean doing what I am doing
You guys do realise stalingrad is a troll Right? He chose to stir dung and don't acknowledge to false facts he stated. instead he stir some more brushing those rebuttal away.
That's typical troll. What do u do with Troll? Ignore.
You guys do realise stalingrad is a troll Right? He chose to stir dung and don't acknowledge to false facts he stated. instead he stir some more brushing those rebuttal away.
That's typical troll. What do u do with Troll? Ignore.
Its ok
he should be reminded that Singaporean does not lack social grace
in fact during the 2008 Sizhuan earthquake, Japan and Asian tsunami and recent Haiyan super typhoon disaster, Singaporean donated generously,
more than our Government :D
I also believed he has many positive things to say about Singapore too
You guys do realise stalingrad is a troll Right? He chose to stir dung and don't acknowledge to false facts he stated. instead he stir some more brushing those rebuttal away.
That's typical troll. What do u do with Troll? Ignore.
There might have some reasons why she/he made such a "sweep" statement. Maybe she/he had encountered some unhappiness with the S'poreans before or she had mistaken other nationals as S'poreans for the ugly behavior or maybe she also think that people should give up seats to little boys. I'm just guessing only, don't get offended.:scared-4::ashamed1:
Actually what she said might not be untrue. I seldom take MRT and even if I took MRT is off-peak hours. But one day, I saw it with my own eyes, the trains were really packed especially the City Hall and Raffles Station where people need to change trains. Once the trains stop, everybody rushed to the opposite to wait for the transit train especially if the trains just arrived. But we CANNOT SAY that those are all Singaporeans especially now we have so many mixture of other nationals. 20 yrs back I used to take MRT to work, situations are not like that, trains were not packed and no rushing. Now is so different, maybe that is human nature, they are afraid that if they don't get into this train, they have to wait for another train and on and on.
Actually I wonder whether will Singapore image be "damaged" by "all these types immigrants".
According to my limited experience, there are both good and bad Singaporeans and good and bad PRCs. so, why bother to distinguish them, the same mah.
There is an old chinese saying, "严以律己，宽以待人“。
How come the Chinese Singaporean here conduct on the contrary way? maybe, most of the CHINESE Singapaprean would rather the work "CHINESE" to be removed from their skin?
According to my limited experience, there are both good and bad Singaporeans and good and bad PRCs. so, why bother to distinguish them, the same mah.
There is an old chinese saying, "严以律己，宽以待人“。
How come the Chinese Singaporean here conduct on the contrary way? maybe, most of the CHINESE Singapaprean would rather the work "CHINESE" to be removed from their skin?
looks like alot of pple read it wrongly as 严以律人，宽以待己...
:D
smellyfish
07-05-14, 10:10
Hi Stalingrad
AGREED with Irisng
Do not use the word Never
I for one give seat up willingly to those in need
even when in hawker centre if approached by old uncle and auntie selling tissue paper
would give them $2 and take from them 1 pack of tissue paper
and I am not alone...have seen many Singaporean doing what I am doing
never blare your charitable deeds, it immediately void all the good karma
smellyfish
07-05-14, 10:15
people will always generalize because that's how the human brain make sense of things and find order in the world. It's why we see the forest and not the trees, the naked woman and not just body parts.
it is a plainly wrong generalization that SGreans do not give up seats though. i see it like all the time.
but if you see a snake and an indian.....
but if you see a snake and an indian.....
rent to indian of course...
:D
never blare your charitable deeds, it immediately void all the good karma
Thank you for your kind advice
did that not to accumulate good karma
its out of compassion, from the heart
Thank you for your kind advice
did that not to accumulate good karma
its out of compassion, from the heart
do you feel good after doing some good deeds and donating?
do you feel good after doing some good deeds and donating?
Yes, I do :cheers1:
Yes, I do :cheers1:
ok, according to some concept that i read, then you are not accumulating any karmic points.
people eat chocolate to feel good.
people dressed nicely to feel good.
...
...
people give money to feel good.
so when you give money to the poor and you feel good, that feel good is no different from eating chocolate to feel good.
to earn karma point not so easy as donating money.
to earn karma point involve pain and suffering, like offering one's flesh to eagle to save the pigeon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibi_%28king%29
although i detest CHC, what they say is essentially correct:
"gives until it hurts".
to earn karmic points damn difficult, that's why few can be free from the cycles.
smellyfish
07-05-14, 15:11
Thank you for your kind advice
did that not to accumulate good karma
its out of compassion, from the heart
minus another 5 karmic points for saying that you have compassionate heart
Yes, it hurts me bad everytime I give. But I do it anyway.
ok, according to some concept that i read, then you are not accumulating any karmic points.
people eat chocolate to feel good.
people dressed nicely to feel good.
...
...
people give money to feel good.
so when you give money to the poor and you feel good, that feel good is no different from eating chocolate to feel good.
to earn karma point not so easy as donating money.
to earn karma point involve pain and suffering, like offering one's flesh to eagle to save the pigeon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibi_%28king%29
although i detest CHC, what they say is essentially correct:
"gives until it hurts".
to earn karmic points damn difficult, that's why few can be free from the cycles.
Yes, it hurts me bad everytime I give. But I do it anyway.
a stingy fellow hurts everytime when money flows out of the pocket :)
a stingy fellow hurts everytime when money flows out of the pocket :)
Yes stingy and lack compassion.
Yes stingy and lack compassion.
do you want to earn karma points?
scratch that question,
the act of saying u want to earn karma points will negate the action.
if you say no, i wont reveal how to earn karma points.
an conundrum
to earn karmic points damn difficult, that's why few can be free from the cycles.
wat's the point then? i rather join my friends then being alone..
:D
wat's the point then? i rather join my friends then being alone..
:D
well, that concept sets the bar very very high, hence it is unpopular with the masses until it is quite obscure.
it is easier to sell the idea that when you donate money, you do good deeds, you feel good and you earn karma points :)
well, that concept sets the bar very very high, hence it is unpopular with the masses until it is quite obscure.
it is easier to sell the idea that when you donate money, you do good deeds, you feel good and you earn karma points :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2I99PWefU
this boy got potential.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2I99PWefU
this boy got potential.
yes, that's it.
+1
that is truly a karma earning act
1) compassion/empathy for fellow human.
2) no thanks from the bully
3) as a result of his act of compasion, he suffer hunger.
4) seeing his grumpy face, i dont think he feel good after donating, not like simi :)
5) no expectation of any returns from the bully.
this is where CHC has twisted the message.
CHC's "give until it hurts" is correct, but when people gives with expectation of 100fold returns, that expectation of returns will negate the act of "give until it hurts" for the giver. It is no longer pure.
so "give until it hurts" will only benefits the pastor :)
yes, that's it.
+1
that is truly a karma earning act
1) compassion/empathy for fellow human.
2) no thanks from the bully
3) as a result of his act of compasion, he suffer hunger.
4) seeing his grumpy face, i dont think he feel good after donating, not like simi :)
5) no expectation of any returns from the bully.
this is where CHC has twisted the message.
CHC's "give until it hurts" is correct, but when people gives with expectation of 100fold returns, that expectation of returns will negate the act of "give until it hurts" for the giver. It is no longer pure.
so "give until it hurts" will only benefits the pastor :)
Hi hopeful
in fact it has never cross my mind to get anything in return
whether in good karma or to score any merit point for reward later
believed any person with a compassionate heart will also do it after all it only a small token for the tissue paper as a medium of exchange (begging is prohibited in Singapore)
Further more its only once or twice a week so there is nothing to blare about or to boast about. (Posted just example to let Stalingrad be awared that Singaporean does have social grace and not void of feelings)
If I were to get any reward then its the Grace of God and not what good deeds I had done
Cheers :cheers1::cheers1:
Hi hopeful
in fact it has never cross my mind to get anything in return
whether in good karma or to score any merit point for reward later
believed any person with a compassionate heart will also do it after all it only a small token for the tissue paper as a medium of exchange (begging is prohibited in Singapore)
Further more its only once or twice a week so there is nothing to blare about or to boast about. (Posted just example to let Stalingrad be awared that Singaporean does have social grace and not void of feelings)
If I were to get any reward then its the Grace of God and not what good deeds I had done
Cheers :cheers1::cheers1:
I support you, Simi because I, myself also never think of the karma and I don't think I can accumulate any karma because I'm not that 伟大 as to sacrifice myself. Sharing here for some good deed that you have done to support the topic is not considered as boasting unless a person starts with a thread saying how good and how kind he/she is, then that's boasting.:2cents:
As long as we are human beings, we will have a "sympathy" heart. By nature when you see somebody who is in need of help eg an old woman falls down, automatically you will lend your helping hand, this is done through our heart. If every time do a good deed just because want to accumulate karma, is this still considered as good deed?
Thank you for your kind advice
did that not to accumulate good karma
its out of compassion, from the heart
very gd, i like compassionate ppl. i will let u noe when im short of money, hokkay? :tongue3:
I very much agree wif wat u said on the above, n i noe where u r coming fm when u said these.
sad to say tat many ppl do gd deeds to accum gd karma for themselves rather den a genuine desire to help ppl in distress.
very gd, i like compassionate ppl. i will let u noe when im short of money, hokkay? :tongue3:
I very much agree wif wat u said on the above, n i noe where u r coming fm when u said these.
sad to say tat many ppl do gd deeds to accum gd karma for themselves rather den a genuine desire to help ppl in distress.
got your house key ?
Congratulations !!!
got your house key ?
Congratulations !!!
catch no ball leh ... u sure u quoted the correct person?
catch no ball leh ... u sure u quoted the correct person?
correct la...dun know what Bartley Ridge :D
I support you, Simi because I, myself also never think of the karma and I don't think I can accumulate any karma because I'm not that 伟大 as to sacrifice myself. Sharing here for some good deed that you have done to support the topic is not considered as boasting unless a person starts with a thread saying how good and how kind he/she is, then that's boasting.:2cents:
As long as we are human beings, we will have a "sympathy" heart. By nature when you see somebody who is in need of help eg an old woman falls down, automatically you will lend your helping hand, this is done through our heart. If every time do a good deed just because want to accumulate karma, is this still considered as good deed?
still considered a gd deed, juz tat 善行 nid not necc stem fm having 善意
p/s: i like to tell ppl my strengths but tats not becos im boastful but becos im truthful :ashamed1:
correct la...dun know what Bartley Ridge :D
sala leh, who so bad bluff u my address?
my add is 38 oxley road, u r welcome to visit me anytime, hehehe :D
sala leh, who so bad bluff u my address?
my add is 38 oxley road, u r welcome to visit me anytime, hehehe :D
sometimes being bluff is a bliss
but dun shoot me to Holland la :D like asking me to visit you at 38 Oxley road :tongue3::(
sometimes being bluff is a bliss
but dun shoot me to Holland la :D like asking me to visit you at 38 Oxley road :tongue3::(
..... i tink 38 oxley can visit la...dont visit next time no chance le... but duno he want to see u or not...
..... i tink 38 oxley can visit la...dont visit next time no chance le... but duno he want to see u or not...
Wait for a few more years, then there will be a few days of open house and 1 day of special public holiday just for that year.
You can see him but he cannot see u.
Wait for a few more years, then there will be a few days of open house and 1 day of special public holiday just for that year.
You can see him but he cannot see u.
wasn't there a prophecy about rising from the grave? :scared-1:
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