View Full Version : Should we BUY?
Wolverine23
27-04-14, 14:39
Any views on whether this is a good time to continue buying and buying?
Will property in Singapore continue to go higher and higher in the long term? (Ie. 15 to 20 years times)
Currently own a few residential and commercial properties in Singapore and also vested in some Iskandar properties...
What else should I buy and where?
What's the strategy for the property experts here? :)
Londonproperty123
27-04-14, 14:45
The bottomline - does demand exceed supply or vice versa?
Your $ is getting smaller. Lots of them are leveraging on cheap money. Has been doing that since 2008.
Any views on whether this is a good time to continue buying and buying?
Will property in Singapore continue to go higher and higher in the long term? (Ie. 15 to 20 years times)
Currently own a few residential and commercial properties in Singapore and also vested in some Iskandar properties...
What else should I buy and where?
What's the strategy for the property experts here? :)
Any views on whether this is a good time to continue buying and buying?
Will property in Singapore continue to go higher and higher in the long term? (Ie. 15 to 20 years times)
Currently own a few residential and commercial properties in Singapore and also vested in some Iskandar properties...
What else should I buy and where?
What's the strategy for the property experts here? :)
Suggest you buy one charity home for the homeless.
wa pian oh! Already got so many still got the chit to ask for strategy. You dont feel pai seh?You should teach us how instead. Before you ask again you should ask yourself how much is enough for you. Taboleh tahan.
Suggest you buy one charity home for the homeless.
wa pian oh! Already got so many still got the chit to ask for strategy. You dont feel pai seh?You should teach us how instead. Before you ask again you should ask yourself how much is enough for you. Taboleh tahan.
I think TS is just trying to show reverse thread to "Should we sell?"
Relax.
Wolverine23
27-04-14, 16:11
Suggest you buy one charity home for the homeless.
wa pian oh! Already got so many still got the chit to ask for strategy. You dont feel pai seh?You should teach us how instead. Before you ask again you should ask yourself how much is enough for you. Taboleh tahan.
There is always someone smarter than yourself.
I recalled there was a forumer who had hundreds of properties...
Londonproperty123
27-04-14, 16:18
There is always someone smarter than yourself.
I recalled there was a forumer who had hundreds of properties...
Woo hoo. Property guru master.
Wolverine23
27-04-14, 18:31
Woo hoo. Property guru master.
Buy or wait for crash to buy?
It will be billion dollar question to have the answer to when the property market will crash.
1) Interest rate not going up drastic soon and so do inflation. So unless both of these go opposite way. Property price would rationalise but not crash.
2) Singapore Employment, slow and steady.
3) No of unit available for rental, as lot but supply of foreigner affected by the ethnic quota for rental will eventually push them to private property as the gap is closing between HDB and Private property. Imagine the gap is just $200-300 and the foreigner own a car. Then it make sense to go for private property.
4) Goverment Land Sales reduced, En bloc activity is like a scared cow..no news...thus supply of land dried up, left over unit taken up, no more excess capacity...welcome to new norm for the price and the price can go only one direction.
*** :2cents: **** Personal opinion. Price is rationalising as we speak as developer is offering freebie and carrot to move units.
Rule of thumb: buy the development that hv leftover unit which new launch project beside is selling at premium to current pricing. Then it is a no brainer.
We cannot forecast what will happen in the future, but through logical thinking and situation understanding on surrounding development + country politics +world economy = best investment decision at this point of time.
The only thing in the world that WOULD NOT change is the CONSTANT CHANGE. :
:eek::eek:
go upstream! get as many freehold landed as possible ... that's always and the ultimate objective
Any correction is a good time to buy more property. Long term have proof it will always go up. With interest rate to remain low for long time, and central bank continue to print money. Inflation will keep going up by estimate 3-4% a year. Only hedge against inflation in tiny Island of 6.9million population is property.
Any correction is a good time to buy more property. Long term have proof it will always go up. With interest rate to remain low for long time, and central bank continue to print money. Inflation will keep going up by estimate 3-4% a year. Only hedge against inflation in tiny Island of 6.9million population is property.
The good things with the CMs.... It fends off short term speculators and preserve cultural fabric of SG. In the long term CMs are good for the property value. Not only it improve the quality of the buyers, it also improve the quality of the developers. Developers must be well capitalised to hold on longer. Shot gun developers are staying away from the market. Supply and product quality is better controlled. I can't imagine if most of the PC in SG are MM. Because the demand is there, doesn't mean must build all MM. We can chocked to death with MM. At this moment all signs are indicating that SG property is very healthy.
walkthetiger
28-04-14, 13:05
The good things with the CMs.... It fends off short term speculators and preserve cultural fabric of SG. In the long term CMs are good for the property value. Not only it improve the quality of the buyers, it also improve the quality of the developers. Developers must be well capitalised to hold on longer. Shot gun developers are staying away from the market. Supply and product quality is better controlled. I can't imagine if most of the PC in SG are MM. Because the demand is there, doesn't mean must build all MM. We can chocked to death with MM. At this moment all signs are indicating that SG property is very healthy.
Agree with most of it...long term it is still healthy....but exciting? i am not sure .. i waiting to see the movement of that 30000 unsold.... gov should hint them not to waste the previous land.... haha...set a time for those unsold...
Moderate increase in general work force wages, ageing work force replace by incoming 1.6mil FT. Current supply is more than demand, once the demand increases naturally price will shoot up again.
Agree with most of it...long term it is still healthy....but exciting? i am not sure .. i waiting to see the movement of that 30000 unsold.... gov should hint them not to waste the previous land.... haha...set a time for those unsold...
We don't pay peanuts and I am sure we don't get monkeys.
Trust the govt. All will be happy in the end.
The reality is:
Supply - You get mostly MM units to make them affordable and more people can buy (because of TDSR) - Regardless of studio, 1 bedder, 2 bedder, 3 bedders are all MM! Fit for Mickey Mouses only! :scared-1:
Product Quality - You are see developers giving cheap tiles (non-homogeneous) in living and dinning rooms, laminates in bedrooms etc! (so that can make $PSF cheaper) :doh:
The good things with the CMs.... It fends off short term speculators and preserve cultural fabric of SG. In the long term CMs are good for the property value. Not only it improve the quality of the buyers, it also improve the quality of the developers. Developers must be well capitalised to hold on longer. Shot gun developers are staying away from the market. Supply and product quality is better controlled. I can't imagine if most of the PC in SG are MM. Because the demand is there, doesn't mean must build all MM. We can chocked to death with MM. At this moment all signs are indicating that SG property is very healthy.
Actually I prefer homogeneous tiles over marble. Much more hardy if rented out.
MM is a reality of modern living in my opinion, especially in dense cities. Technically the spots I think I use at home add up to no more than 200 Sq Ft.
If I already can think so, my tenants should be able to think likewise too.
walkthetiger
28-04-14, 16:39
Moderate increase in general work force wages, ageing work force replace by incoming 1.6mil FT. Current supply is more than demand, once the demand increases naturally price will shoot up again.
Take a look at our public places, MRT and shopping malls. Who will be those 1.6 mil FT, mostly rich millionaires?
On top of 30000 unsold new houses, try looking at figure from resale....you will see how bad the oversupply is.
…. Gov is not going to open the FT gate just to fill up the oversupply. This is like asking FT to bail those fellow, hope you see it is not easy to bring FT to Singapore if property price is at this high….can continue to be most expensive city.
Drop something on the homogeneous tiles and the chip-off surface is unrepairable! :doh:
Unless you are talking about those tenants where 4 people can squeeze into a room type, no high-income person or expat with family who can afford it will want to squeeze into a 2 bedders less than 800 sqft or 3 bedders less than 1000 sqft! :beats-me-man:
Actually I prefer homogeneous tiles over marble. Much more hardy if rented out.
MM is a reality of modern living in my opinion, especially in dense cities. Technically the spots I think I use at home add up to no more than 200 Sq Ft.
If I already can think so, my tenants should be able to think likewise too.
Londonproperty123
28-04-14, 17:06
We don't pay peanuts and I am sure we don't get monkeys.
Trust the govt. All will be happy in the end.
Why would Govt want property prices to keep going up? At best, to stabilize and kept stable.
Look at population over past years
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/ST_20121006_SAT2_3330225.pdf
Look at population 2013 vs 2012
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/latest_data.html#14
Look at housing stock growth each year
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/market-trends/singapore-property-price-index-and-housing-stock-growth/
Look at housing stock vs population over the years
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/market-trends/singapore-property-price-index-and-housing-stock/
What will be the population mid 2014????
form your own conclusion....;)
White paper
http://population.sg/whitepaper/resource-files/population-white-paper.pdf
"to stop our citizen
population from shrinking, we will take in between
15,000 and 25,000 new citizens each year"
"Singapore’s total population of residents and non-
residents in 2020 is projected to be between 5.8
and 6 million, depending on our fertility trends,
life expectancy, as well as our social and economic
needs"
So what is the population today??? What is the projected in 2020???
Like everything, it can swing anyway....
For me, no opinion to buy or sell.... I just look at numbers to guide me....:):)
http://www.startupsmart.com.au/leadership/millionaires-flock-to-uk-and-singapore-in-global-migration-trends/2014032811995.html
Why would Govt want property prices to keep going up? At best, to stabilize and kept stable.
I didn't say go up. I said all happy.
Why would Govt want property prices to keep going up? At best, to stabilize and kept stable.
Someone ask the same question to former PM GOH, his reply is they are buying a piece of space in the air, if they don't stay in it good, they don't add stress to the infrastructure and they pay Tax.
Now you become the government, you build Billion dollar infrastructure, what will you do.
Not all Bubbles are Bubble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYOxEkxYd4
walkthetiger
28-04-14, 18:58
Someone ask the same question to former PM GOH, his reply is they are buying a piece of space in the air, if they don't stay in it good, they don't add stress to the infrastructure and they pay Tax.
Now you become the government, you build Billion dollar infrastructure, what will you do.
Not all Bubbles are Bubble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvYOxEkxYd4
.....maybe should ask KBW to try let all property half filled.. to see if he is confident make plan for 6.9 millions....as all living in the air anyway..
walkthetiger
28-04-14, 19:09
White paper
http://population.sg/whitepaper/resource-files/population-white-paper.pdf
"to stop our citizen
population from shrinking, we will take in between
15,000 and 25,000 new citizens each year"
"Singapore’s total population of residents and non-
residents in 2020 is projected to be between 5.8
and 6 million, depending on our fertility trends,
life expectancy, as well as our social and economic
needs"
So what is the population today??? What is the projected in 2020???
Like everything, it can swing anyway....
For me, no opinion to buy or sell.... I just look at numbers to guide me....:):)
...I feel too many people had over read the 6.9 millions thing...it is good news of course. It is to ensure continual sustainable growth in Singapore, for survival…..gov had learnt enough hard lesson in recent years property price spike…
...I feel too many people had over read the 6.9 millions thing...it is good news of course. It is to ensure continual sustainable growth in Singapore, for survival…..gov had learnt enough hard lesson in recent years property price spike…
Think the pix will be clearer when population stats for 2014 in unveiled...
:)
.....maybe should ask KBW to try let all property half filled.. to see if he is confident make plan for 6.9 millions....as all living in the air anyway..
When there is too much money in the system, this is what will happen.
They try it in China, they have ‘The City of the Dead’
http://www.vancouverdesi.com/news/nridiaspora/ghost-town-luxury-villas/743733/
http://www.vancouverdesi.com/imageimport/ghost-town/cen_emptyvillas_13.jpg
Think the pix will be clearer when population stats for 2014 in unveiled...
:)
Not many people take their time to understand, most chose to believe what they want to believe. If you tell them Bank create Money and MAS is the one control the creation, most will chose to say it is not truth instead of finding out the facts.
Drop something on the homogeneous tiles and the chip-off surface is unrepairable! :doh:
Unless you are talking about those tenants where 4 people can squeeze into a room type, no high-income person or expat with family who can afford it will want to squeeze into a 2 bedders less than 800 sqft or 3 bedders less than 1000 sqft! :beats-me-man:
Unless you are talking about those tenants where 4 people can squeeze into a room type, no high-income person or expat with family who can afford it will want to squeeze into a 2 bedders less than 800 sqft or 3 bedders less than 1000 sqft! :beats-me-man:[/QUOTE]
I once used a hammer and chisel at the homogeneous tile and not even scratched. I think there are probably different grades of this.
The second point is circular logic which is always true. High income who can afford it will also buy cars that must be pin-drop silent. But that is generally not true for the majority of tenants who either cannot afford or don't want to spend like that. Also if they are so affluent, what is preventing them from buying?
Singles, couples awaiting their apartment, and PRs who have not meet 3 year residence are those that fall neatly into this. Especially if they have just started working or desire independence from parents.
Not many people take their time to understand, most chose to believe what they want to believe. If you tell them Bank create Money and MAS is the one control the creation, most will chose to say it is not truth instead of finding out the facts.
Money supply
https://secure.mas.gov.sg/msb-xml/Report.aspx?tableSetID=I&tableID=I.1
Start @ 2010 and end 2014 and be amazed
:cheers1:
Think you must have mistaken granites for tiles!
With hammer and chisel, even granite also will have scratches!
Not sure what tiles you have, must be very rare, 1 in a trillion? :p
I once used a hammer and chisel at the homogeneous tile and not even scratched. I think there are probably different grades of this.
The second point is circular logic which is always true. High income who can afford it will also buy cars that must be pin-drop silent. But that is generally not true for the majority of tenants who either cannot afford or don't want to spend like that. Also if they are so affluent, what is preventing them from buying?
Singles, couples awaiting their apartment, and PRs who have not meet 3 year residence are those that fall neatly into this. Especially if they have just started working or desire independence from parents.
Think you must have mistaken granites for tiles!
With hammer and chisel, even granite also will have scratches.
Not sure what tiles you have, must be very rare, 1 in a trillion? :p
The contractor laid the tiles unevenly. We used this method to leave a dull mark on the tiles to replace so that no cheating allowed (for sure will change). There was even sparks coming out from contact. But from angle no scratches really.
Anyway it's been rented for 3 years. Every time I visit the tiles are still in A+ condition. No scratches.
Wolverine23
28-04-14, 22:10
So?
Up????????
White paper
http://population.sg/whitepaper/resource-files/population-white-paper.pdf
"to stop our citizen
population from shrinking, we will take in between
15,000 and 25,000 new citizens each year"
"Singapore’s total population of residents and non-
residents in 2020 is projected to be between 5.8
and 6 million, depending on our fertility trends,
life expectancy, as well as our social and economic
needs"
So what is the population today??? What is the projected in 2020???
Like everything, it can swing anyway....
For me, no opinion to buy or sell.... I just look at numbers to guide me....:):)
There is a lack of confidence in the mkt, but if there is a solid project launching, then it will be different. But now, buyers are stuck with financing elsie the mkt should be moving.
walkthetiger
29-04-14, 14:14
There is a lack of confidence in the mkt, but if there is a solid project launching, then it will be different. But now, buyers are stuck with financing elsie the mkt should be moving.
....haha....few months back till now, people were shouting ..".not worth to wait, now buy, save u from paying rental"
Soon a downgraded version will appear "why wait...sell it now and still be a winner"
Be real, if buyer continue wait and sellers all refused to lower price...good luck to agents...market is sliding downward like KBW had designed it that way....not within anybody strenght to turn this around... work with market, not against the market.... speed up this cycle, the buyers will bite if price is right, cut the miserable days short...
Yes right, property prices quick crash! This will prove that all those CMs implemented had contributed to the crash! :D
....haha....few months back till now, people were shouting ..".not worth to wait, now buy, save u from paying rental"
Soon a downgraded version will appear "why wait...sell it now and still be a winner"
Be real, if buyer continue wait and sellers all refused to lower price...good luck to agents...market is sliding downward like KBW had designed it that way....not within anybody strenght to turn this around... work with market, not against the market.... speed up this cycle, the buyers will bite if price is right, cut the miserable days short...
walkthetiger
29-04-14, 16:25
Yes right, property prices quick crash! This will prove that all those CMs implemented had contributed to the crash! :D
..the market is bigger than any of us....we can only watch and try out best to see what is coming.....if it deserves to crash, then let it crashes...置于死地而后生... then let it comes fast and let it goes fast.
....But hope it will not be a long painful slow dead.... nobody wishes to die that way...
Wolverine23
29-04-14, 22:49
There is a lack of confidence in the mkt, but if there is a solid project launching, then it will be different. But now, buyers are stuck with financing elsie the mkt should be moving.
There is confidence in the market but buyers are unwilling to pay extra duties to government...
There is confidence in the market but buyers are unwilling to pay extra duties to government...
Unwilling to pay group maybe 20%. Unable to pay group maybe 80%.
My opinion only.
Wolverine23
29-04-14, 23:53
Unwilling to pay group maybe 20%. Unable to pay group maybe 80%.
My opinion only.
Property isn't for everybody.
I was bought up with the thinking that property is only for the rich. And the Rich gets Richer.
Right? :)
Property isn't for everybody.
I was bought up with the thinking that property is only for the rich. And the Rich gets Richer.
Right? :)
Nope, it's all in the mind.
When I was young, my teacher say go and buy stamp and stick on a piece of paper and then deposit it into POSB. They teach us that is where the money is, call saving.
Then my father told me to pay out all debt and not to get into debt. He brought a 3 room HDB for SGD 6,600 in 1969. Later with CPF SGD 100,000 and new 5 room HDB cost SGD 50,000 he refuse to move and told me when the war come all the building will be gone.
With zero cents from him, 1988 I brought a 4 room HDB then 1993 with SGD 20,000 loan from him I brought a 5 room HDB then a 3 room HDB then a in 2006 brought a 2 Bedroom PC then in 2011 a 3 bedroom PH and I learn money is created by the Bank and there is this thing call good debt and bad debt. And if you want to be a millionaire, first you must convince yourself you can be one.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 07:35
Property isn't for everybody.
I was bought up with the thinking that property is only for the rich. And the Rich gets Richer.
Right? :)
Be realistic, if u have one dollar, praise yourself if you can turn it to $2. There is no absolute fairness, different playing field, but i have $1000 then it will easier to turn it $3000.....if all become millionaire, then many here should be billionaire as well...
If all my children know how to multiple my wealth, propably by now i would be in top few riches list...
Property isn't for everybody.
I was bought up with the thinking that property is only for the rich. And the Rich gets Richer.
Right? :)
TDSR has a strong levelling effect even for the rich if they have heavy existing housing and car loans.
Wolverine23
30-04-14, 08:08
Yup, I agree it's all in the mind. But I must say not everyone can think this way.
That is why there is Rich and Poor difference.
Nope, it's all in the mind.
When I was young, my teacher say go and buy stamp and stick on a piece of paper and then deposit it into POSB. They teach us that is where the money is, call saving.
Then my father told me to pay out all debt and not to get into debt. He brought a 3 room HDB for SGD 6,600 in 1969. Later with CPF SGD 100,000 and new 5 room HDB cost SGD 50,000 he refuse to move and told me when the war come all the building will be gone.
With zero cents from him, 1988 I brought a 4 room HDB then 1993 with SGD 20,000 loan from him I brought a 5 room HDB then a 3 room HDB then a in 2006 brought a 2 Bedroom PC then in 2011 a 3 bedroom PH and I learn money is created by the Bank and there is this thing call good debt and bad debt. And if you want to be a millionaire, first you must convince yourself you can be one.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 08:09
TDSR has a strong levelling effect even for the rich if they have heavy existing housing and car loans.
..haha..u should consider those as rich in debt only....
Wolverine23
30-04-14, 08:09
TDSR has a strong levelling effect even for the rich if they have heavy existing housing and car loans.
Then these are not the Rich. These are the Look Rich people?
haha
..haha..u should consider those as rich in debt only....
They are prevented from getting richer in debts.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 08:50
They are prevented from getting richer in debts.
...agree too, there are some riches who created their wealth by just knowing how borrow.... is not for everybody to follow blindy..
Nope, it's all in the mind.
When I was young, my teacher say go and buy stamp and stick on a piece of paper and then deposit it into POSB. They teach us that is where the money is, call saving.
Then my father told me to pay out all debt and not to get into debt. He brought a 3 room HDB for SGD 6,600 in 1969. Later with CPF SGD 100,000 and new 5 room HDB cost SGD 50,000 he refuse to move and told me when the war come all the building will be gone.
With zero cents from him, 1988 I brought a 4 room HDB then 1993 with SGD 20,000 loan from him I brought a 5 room HDB then a 3 room HDB then a in 2006 brought a 2 Bedroom PC then in 2011 a 3 bedroom PH and I learn money is created by the Bank and there is this thing call good debt and bad debt. And if you want to be a millionaire, first you must convince yourself you can be one.
So how much is your loan now? Would u be worried if interest rates go up? Is your condos all rented out?
...agree too, there are some riches who created their wealth by just knowing how borrow.... is not for everybody to follow blindy..
Rich in debts as of the moment is still correlational to being wealthy.
But the tides can change also. Various uncertainties can set in. I don't think all those who borrow to the hilt sleep well.
Rich in debts as of the moment is still correlational to being wealthy.
But the tides can change also. Various uncertainties can set in. I don't think all those who borrow to the hilt sleep well.
For rental props
Scenario 1
If you have 800K cash/liquid asset, would you borrow 800K for the house???
Scenario 2
If you have a housing loan of 800K, and you have cash of 800k, would you pay up your loan
:cheers1::cheers1::D:D
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 09:49
Rich in debts as of the moment is still correlational to being wealthy.
But the tides can change also. Various uncertainties can set in. I don't think all those who borrow to the hilt sleep well.
...have to admit, I am not into this area... however, there are just too many ways to make money nowadays...to me, it is just how much is the return and coupled with the risk that I are willing to take, ... but everything is the same, timing is important....If I am not sure about something, i rather let others to take that money...
Rich in debts as of the moment is still correlational to being wealthy.
But the tides can change also. Various uncertainties can set in. I don't think all those who borrow to the hilt sleep well.
like warran buffet says. when the tides is out you will know who is swimming naked.
They are prevented from getting richer in debts.
The real rich are more concern on wealth preservation. Generating wealth was done earlier in life or by the previous generations. Thus Wealth preserversation is the top most priority.
For rental props
Scenario 1
If you have 800K cash/liquid asset, would you borrow 800K for the house???
Scenario 2
If you have a housing loan of 800K, and you have cash of 800k, would you pay up your loan
:cheers1::cheers1::D:D
frankly 800K cash these days are nothing much to scream abt. so Question should be what if nothing is don't with the 800K cash. what will happen to it?
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 10:04
...have to admit, I am not into this area... however, there are just too many ways to make money nowadays...to me, it is just how much is the return and coupled with the risk that I are willing to take, ... but everything is the same, timing is important....If I am not sure about something, i rather let others to take that money...
I view this fair, anybody who thinks they are ready and are smart enough to it, then go for it... measure the self capability ... like how far he should go, how much he deserve to obtain....
Moreover, herd investors got no much choice, it is the system that push to them to think they must try to gain without limit...and there are too much lies around confusing them...some are just confused by their own greed..these got themselve to blame.
For rental props
Scenario 1
If you have 800K cash/liquid asset, would you borrow 800K for the house???
Scenario 2
If you have a housing loan of 800K, and you have cash of 800k, would you pay up your loan
:cheers1::cheers1::D:D
The main problem is that some may have this 800K and aiming to borrow 8 million.
"Borrow" and "borrow to the hilt" are two separate things.
i sense that many people over-leveraged nowadays
The main problem is that some may have this 800K and aiming to borrow 8 million.
"Borrow" and "borrow to the hilt" are two separate things.
TDSR has taken care of that... HAHAHAHAHAHA
frankly 800K cash these days are nothing much to scream abt. so Question should be what if nothing is don't with the 800K cash. what will happen to it?
Tell that to someone who earns 3,705 per month (thats the median salary)
http://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/Pages/PressReleasesDetail.aspx?listid=535
Real income growth strengthened in 2013, as nominal median monthly income from work of full-time employed residents (including employer CPF contributions) increased over the year by 6.5% to $3,705 in June 2013 and inflation eased1. The growth in real median income accelerated from 2.5% in 2012 to 3.9%P in 2013.
the 800K is just an example.... please put in the amount you so desire...
:cheers1::cheers1::cheers1:
i sense that many people over-leveraged nowadays
TDSR took care of it.
TDSR has taken care of that... HAHAHAHAHAHA
Yes Sir, which goes back to our original discussion about the levelling effects of TDSR, prevention of some of the rich getting "richer" in debts, and "unable to pay group" of (speculated) 80% who are stuck by ABSD and TDSR.
The scenarios you proposed are not about this group.
Yes Sir, which goes back to our original discussion about the levelling effects of TDSR, prevention of some of the rich getting "richer" in debts, and "unable to pay group" of (speculated) 80% who are stuck by ABSD and TDSR.
The scenarios you proposed are not about this group.
The affluent will find other instruments to invest.... The affluent will also be able to get financing if they want...
Check private banking.....
:D:D
The affluent will find other instruments to invest.... The rich will also be able to get financing if they want...
Check private banking.....
:D:D
You are right. But at least taking some of their sails out of the equation for property investments allows lesser mortals an opening in this arena, thus the levelling effects. If not prices would surely have gone way out of reach already - megabubble proportions when OCR MM hits a million each. Not unfathomable without the 9 rounds of CMs.
The rich can get all kind of debts easily, including printing papers (called "shares", "bonds", "warrants" etc)!
There are those REITs which are not subjected to so-called TDSR.............
Ultimately, TDSR, ABSD etc are just cooling measures for the not-rich and is a obstacle for them to get rich through debt (which now only the genuinely rich is able to).......... :o
They are prevented from getting richer in debts.
You are right. But at least taking some of their sails out of the equation for property investments allows lesser mortals an opening in this arena, thus the levelling effects. If not prices would surely have gone way out of reach already - megabubble proportions when OCR MM hits a million each. Not unfathomable without the 9 rounds of CMs.
you are rite !!!!!!
A 1.5 mil would cost 1.695 mil.... hahahahahaha
:cheers1::cheers1:
Tell that to someone who earns 3,705 per month (thats the median salary)
http://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/Pages/PressReleasesDetail.aspx?listid=535
Real income growth strengthened in 2013, as nominal median monthly income from work of full-time employed residents (including employer CPF contributions) increased over the year by 6.5% to $3,705 in June 2013 and inflation eased1. The growth in real median income accelerated from 2.5% in 2012 to 3.9%P in 2013.
the 800K is just an example.... please put in the amount you so desire...
:cheers1::cheers1::cheers1:
my desire arh...... still remain a Desire. ;)
The rich can get all kind of debts easily, including printing papers (called "shares", "bonds", "warrants" etc)!
There are those REITs which are not subjected to so-called TDSR.............
Ultimately, TDSR, ABSD etc are just cooling measures for the not-rich and is a obstacle for them to get rich through debt (which now only the genuinely rich is able to).......... :o
Definitely true,.
Ultimately, the rich can only get richer, and we all recognise that. The purpose of so many CMs is so that they do not do so at the expense of the not-so-rich.
Ultimately, REITs, shares, bonds, warrants are also available to everyone anyways, although some will have a higher entry point. But the speculation of these papers, their rise and fall does not affect every citizen (especially the bulk of average income group), as compared to property speculation.
There is no levelling effects, only exaggerating effects!
Now, only the rich can play and get richer, while the rest sit and suck thumb! :p
Not only that, the policies causes prices to drop or even crash, the rich can get more debt to buy cheap cheap, while the poorer ones have to sell at low price or even at a loss because their cash were tied up (since cannot borrow more and put aside more buffer)!
While the original purpose of so many CMs may not be about doing so at the expense of the not-so-rich, but in reality it is just doing that!
Ultimately, the only winner is the govt through ABSD (just like implementing GST to help the poor! They so long never increase GST means they are no longer interested to help the poor? :p)
You are right. But at least taking some of their sails out of the equation for property investments allows lesser mortals an opening in this arena, thus the levelling effects. If not prices would surely have gone way out of reach already - megabubble proportions when OCR MM hits a million each. Not unfathomable without the 9 rounds of CMs.
There is no levelling effects, only exaggerating effects!
Now, only the rich can play and get richer, while the rest sit and suck thumb! :p
Not only that, the policies causes prices to drop or even crash, the rich can get more debt to buy cheap cheap, while the poorer ones have to sell at low price or even at a loss because their cash were tied up (since cannot borrow more and put aside more buffer)!
While the original purpose of so many CMs may not be about doing so at the expense of the not-so-rich, but in reality it is just doing that!
Not true from my angle. I doubt the rich likes paying taxes - most of my research says they hate paying taxes the most.
If prices drop or crash, the huge loans that the rich have in existence will be first hit. They are also unlikely to want to commit to additional loans since most of it could be locked in their debts and papers that you mentioned.
CMs so far did not target first home ownership. If prices stalls or falls, the group that benefits the most will be those that progress from zero to one property. All other groups have to pay more in taxes or might not meet loan quantum due to existing loans. If this is not seen as helping the truly not-so-rich, what should have been done? Allow properties to fly sky high?
Ultimately, the only winner is the govt through ABSD (just like implementing GST to help the poor! They so long never increase GST means they are no longer interested to help the poor? :p)
GST has political implications. I am sure we are all on the same page about that.
If you are getting your home for residence, there is no ABSD involved.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 11:44
If prices drop or crash, the huge loans that the rich have in existence will be first hit. They are also unlikely to want to commit to additional loans since most of it could be locked in their debts and papers that you mentioned.
...The smart ones would have cashed out before crash.....haha....Sometimes I do hear people saying my children are rich, actually they are just born with money only...
...The smart ones would have cashed out before crash.....haha....Sometimes I do hear people saying my children are rich, actually they are just born with money only...
From the sensing of this forum, my intuition tells me that they cash out they will also put in some other instruments. Most likely IF there is a crash, they will cash out in the midst of the crash and suffer some paper loss as well.
Cashing out prematurely is also not wise based on what some forummers advise.
A freeze scenario and some wait time for incomes to catch up is happening, and it is definitely healthier for all.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 12:02
From the sensing of this forum, my intuition tells me that they cash out they will also put in some other instruments. Most likely IF there is a crash, they will cash out in the midst of the crash and suffer some paper loss as well.
Cashing out prematurely is also not wise based on what some forummers advise.
A freeze scenario and some wait time for incomes to catch up is happening, and it is definitely healthier for all.
Agree.. that is the norm... usually way... if the crash may caught them unprepared.
But, the money making rule....they will also sense the opportunity.. if there are circumstances where crash/opportunity on the way, they will be smiling all the way for getting it correct.... for the right time spotted again.... I doubt they will share this with you.
Agree.. that is the norm... usually way.
But, the money making rule....they will also sense the opportunity.. if there are circumstances where crash/opportunity on the way, they will be smiling all the way for getting it correct.... for the right time spotted again.... I doubt they will share this with you.
But what if they get it wrong? For example, the crash does not happen significantly but rather flat or stable growth?
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 12:16
But what if they get it wrong? For example, the crash does not happen significantly but rather flat or stable growth?
There is no perfect plan.... all depend how sharp you are..... Nowadays, too many are people thinking like making money is automatic, if it is so simple like everybody know how to do it, then you think you deserve to be escalated to be par with the top riches....
Probably my children will be those who only depending on financial consultant when they grew old one day, then see those other earning many times more than them, they will be falling behind gradually, as they are only able to sustain that little wealth....
There is no perfect plan.... all depend how sharp you are..... Nowadays, too many are people thinking like making money is automatic, if it is so simple like everybody know how to do it, then you think you deserve to be escalated to be par with the top riches....
Probably my children will be those who only depending on financial consultant when they grew old one day, then see those other earning many times more than them, they will be falling behind gradually, as they are only able to sustain that little wealth....
Property as an asset class is also not that easy to cash out.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 13:00
Property as an asset class is also not that easy to cash out.
During the super high, even rubbishs are selling well,.just how difficult to cash out.
But many can't see it....that is why... nothing is permanent, include wealth...
Everything will change... wealth goes from people to people...it is moving around... the system is there to benefit people who knew one to two more ahead.
.
So how much is your loan now? Would u be worried if interest rates go up? Is your condos all rented out?
How much can a 44K loan?
LTV = 60%
If you know what is Money, then you know why interest rates can't go up.
One rented, the other TOP end of the year.
Londonproperty123
30-04-14, 14:40
Material wealth is temporal. Why? Life on Earth is temporal.
Material wealth is temporal. Why? Life on Earth is temporal.
That is why you need to max whatever you have.
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. Matthew 7:7
You come empty, you go empty. I know where I am going, do you.
Definitely true,.
Ultimately, the rich can only get richer, and we all recognise that. The purpose of so many CMs is so that they do not do so at the expense of the not-so-rich.
Ultimately, REITs, shares, bonds, warrants are also available to everyone anyways, although some will have a higher entry point. But the speculation of these papers, their rise and fall does not affect every citizen (especially the bulk of average income group), as compared to property speculation.
Well if the Rich F it up they will be less rich. the normal folks over leverage and F it up they will become the new Poor. Who will be worst off? CM at least ensure people don't end up as the new poor if the over leverage.
You are not seeing it!
Rich hate to pay taxes, but they know how to count!
Say the CMs cause prices to drop 15%, and they pay ABSD 15%, now they are NET not paying any ABSD taxes! It is the poorer seller (hit by CMs and must sell) paying! :o
CMs did not target first home ownership, but by virtue that it causes prices to drop, all these people many will be frozen to death, will they still buy? Ultimately, the one buying are the children of the rich who help to pay their down-payments! Again, the rich and their children are benefiting! :sleep:
Not true from my angle. I doubt the rich likes paying taxes - most of my research says they hate paying taxes the most.
If prices drop or crash, the huge loans that the rich have in existence will be first hit. They are also unlikely to want to commit to additional loans since most of it could be locked in their debts and papers that you mentioned.
CMs so far did not target first home ownership. If prices stalls or falls, the group that benefits the most will be those that progress from zero to one property. All other groups have to pay more in taxes or might not meet loan quantum due to existing loans. If this is not seen as helping the truly not-so-rich, what should have been done? Allow properties to fly sky high?
There is no levelling effects, only exaggerating effects!
Now, only the rich can play and get richer, while the rest sit and suck thumb! :p
Not only that, the policies causes prices to drop or even crash, the rich can get more debt to buy cheap cheap, while the poorer ones have to sell at low price or even at a loss because their cash were tied up (since cannot borrow more and put aside more buffer)!
While the original purpose of so many CMs may not be about doing so at the expense of the not-so-rich, but in reality it is just doing that!
Ultimately, the only winner is the govt through ABSD (just like implementing GST to help the poor! They so long never increase GST means they are no longer interested to help the poor? :p)
GST has political implications. I am sure we are all on the same page about that.
If you are getting your home for residence, there is no ABSD involved.
ABSD applies to the investment homes only . i.e. the 2nd home onwards.
Lots of assumptions in what you stated, which might or might not be true. I don't see these assumptions being met - know a few very rich people and they don't quite follow what you stated here.
1. Why can't the seller be the rich seller or their rich children and must be poorer seller? In fact, most likely they are the richer group in the first place.
2. The children are privileged to begin with. You can't do anything about that inequality - going by your logic if no CMs, private prices will be out of 95% people's reach and continue to be jacked up and up by these rich children who can only become richer by selling to the next tier. Who really suffers?
3. Why would first time buyers be frozen to death by say a 10-15% drop in price or at least price freeze? Most likely they will be happy until almost die.
4. Not forgetting that maybe 95% of people are salaried employees even if they have rich parents. Even if they can pay more taxes, there is a cap on how much can be borrowed, especially if they have already borrowed for millions on a first property. Think TDSR.
There are numerous other embedded tax structures for investment homes, income tax, property tax etc. Not every person who can afford it will cheong private property - there are countless other instruments to go for.
You are not seeing it!
Rich hate to pay taxes, but they know how to count!
Say the CMs cause prices to drop 15%, and they pay ABSD 15%, now they are NET not paying any ABSD taxes! It is the poorer seller (hit by CMs and must sell) paying! :o
CMs did not target first home ownership, but by virtue that it causes prices to drop, all these people many will be frozen to death, will they still buy? Ultimately, the one buying are the children of the rich who help to pay their down-payments! Again, the rich and their children are benefiting! :sleep:
You are not seeing it!
Rich hate to pay taxes, but they know how to count!
Say the CMs cause prices to drop 15%, and they pay ABSD 15%, now they are NET not paying any ABSD taxes! It is the poorer seller (hit by CMs and must sell) paying! :o
CMs did not target first home ownership, but by virtue that it causes prices to drop, all these people many will be frozen to death, will they still buy? Ultimately, the one buying are the children of the rich who help to pay their down-payments! Again, the rich and their children are benefiting! :sleep:
LOL! so price keep going up u is good for the so call poor buyers ?
Lots of assumptions in what you stated, which might or might not be true. I don't see these assumptions being met - know a few very rich people and they don't quite follow what you stated here.
1. Why can't the seller be the rich seller or their rich children and must be poorer seller? In fact, most likely they are the richer group in the first place.
2. The children are privileged to begin with. You can't do anything about that inequality - going by your logic if no CMs, private prices will be out of 95% people's reach and continue to be jacked up and up by these rich children who can only become richer by selling to the next tier. Who really suffers?
3. Why would first time buyers be frozen to death by say a 10-15% drop in price or at least price freeze? Most likely they will be happy until almost die.
4. Not forgetting that maybe 95% of people are salaried employees even if they have rich parents. Even if they can pay more taxes, there is a cap on how much can be borrowed, especially if they have already borrowed for millions on a first property. Think TDSR.
There are numerous other embedded tax structures for investment homes, income tax, property tax etc. Not every person who can afford it will cheong private property - there are countless other instruments to go for.
aiyah his assumption is always skewed for his agenda.
walkthetiger
30-04-14, 15:33
Lots of assumptions in what you stated, which might or might not be true. I don't see these assumptions being met - know a few very rich people and they don't quite follow what you stated here.
1. Why can't the seller be the rich seller or their rich children and must be poorer seller? In fact, most likely they are the richer group in the first place.
2. The children are privileged to begin with. You can't do anything about that inequality - going by your logic if no CMs, private prices will be out of 95% people's reach and continue to be jacked up and up by these rich children who can only become richer by selling to the next tier. Who really suffers?
3. Why would first time buyers be frozen to death by say a 10-15% drop in price or at least price freeze? Most likely they will be happy until almost die.
4. Not forgetting that maybe 95% of people are salaried employees even if they have rich parents. Even if they can pay more taxes, there is a cap on how much can be borrowed, especially if they have already borrowed for millions on a first property. Think TDSR.
There are numerous other embedded tax structures for investment homes, income tax, property tax etc. Not every person who can afford it will cheong private property - there are countless other instruments to go for.
.... it just tells me that you have trying to follow what others have been doing… still stucked in someone’s ideas.... Good luck...
.... it just tells me that you have trying to follow what others have been doing… still stucked in someone’s ideas.... Good luck...
I am analysing the big picture here. So far it agrees with the data of home sales and prices.
My ideas are mine alone and I doubt others' experiences are the same. In my limited experience the CMs are necessary but it would have been better if TDSR was one of the early CMs. Then not so many would have over leveraged.
Londonproperty123
30-04-14, 15:48
I am analysing the big picture here. So far it agrees with the data of home sales and prices.
My ideas are mine alone and I doubt others' experiences are the same. In my limited experience the CMs are necessary but it would have been better if TDSR was one of the early CMs. Then not so many would have over leveraged.
I agree TDSR should have been put in earlier. But better late than never.
What CMs do to 44K guy.
In Jun 2006, 5% about SGD 25,000 can book a 2 Bedroom at Southbank. This 44 K guy blur blur pay 20% about SGD 108,000, he could have 4, 2 Bedroom @ Southbank instead he get only one.
If the CMs before June 2006, game over.
Fast forward, this 44 K guy got 2 Bedroom and a 3 Bedroom PH for a deposit of SGD 108,000 in Jun 2006. This is what I call money transfer from the have to the have not.
Decipher
http://www.mom.gov.sg/statistics-publications/others/statistics/Pages/ForeignWorkforceNumbers.aspx
Decipher
http://www.mom.gov.sg/statistics-publications/others/statistics/Pages/ForeignWorkforceNumbers.aspx
Not many people after reading the Data chose to believe. They chose to believe what they want to believe.
Not all Bubbles are Bubble.
Not many people after reading the Data chose to believe. They chose to believe what they want to believe.
Not all Bubbles are Bubble.
Look at page 5. Compare June 2013 with Dec 2013 numbers on EP
http://www.aasingapore.com/media/files/files/34638a18/Employment_Pass_Presentation_2014.pdf
You highlighted what I am trying to say with your experience: The CMs basically ensure that people like you will never be able to afford to participate in property investments now! Even those who do, if they are marginalized because of the CMs, they could end up selling CHEAP CHEAP to the rich who are the only ones left able to afford to buy now!
The entity with biggest benefit is the govt collecting ABSD.................
What CMs do to 44K guy.
In Jun 2006, 5% about SGD 25,000 can book a 2 Bedroom at Southbank. This 44 K guy blur blur pay 20% about SGD 108,000, he could have 4, 2 Bedroom @ Southbank instead he get only one.
If the CMs before June 2006, game over.
Fast forward, this 44 K guy got 2 Bedroom and a 3 Bedroom PH for a deposit of SGD 108,000 in Jun 2006. This is what I call money transfer from the have to the have not.
You highlighted what I am trying to say with your experience: The CMs basically ensure that people like you will never be able to afford to participate in property investments now! Even those who do, if they are marginalized because of the CMs, they could end up selling CHEAP CHEAP to the rich who are the only ones left able to afford to buy now!
The entity with biggest benefit is the govt collecting ABSD.................
Go buy REITS! Buy liao kana burn blame government again? The Rich can lose $ the avg joe kana burn will be whole life time saving down the long kao.
Buy REITs so that the REITs Managers can squeeze you out of fat Management fees?! :banghead:
You know why the RICH want to set up and sell shares in REITs? :(
The smart ones buy and own the properties!
The even smarter ones buy and own the properties, then IPO and sell shares as REITs, use REITs company to pay their salaries (ie. from your share), squeeze you Management fees any amount they like while retaining control of these properties!
The REALLY STUPID ones buy REITs! :doh:
Go buy REITS! Buy liao kana burn blame government again? The Rich can lose $ the avg joe kana burn will be whole life time saving down the long kao.
I am analysing the big picture here. So far it agrees with the data of home sales and prices.
My ideas are mine alone and I doubt others' experiences are the same. In my limited experience the CMs are necessary but it would have been better if TDSR was one of the early CMs. Then not so many would have over leveraged.
ABSD is to reduce too much $$ keep flowing into property.
SSD to remove the anti speculation factor who are in for the short term
TDSR to prevent people with weak books still trying to jump into the band wagon and get run over when int spike.
Buy REITs so that the REITs Managers can squeeze you out of fat Management fees?! :banghead:
You know why the RICH want to set up and sell shares in REITs? :(
so? Someone need to get paid to do the job and take the risk. why don't u offer to work for free and bear the risk then?
at least the buyer are not over leveraged and get run over by leveraging too much and get forced into bankruptcy when the interest goes up!
many rich also buy REITs ! so do the middle class folks!
Ha ha ha! Yes yes, the RICH own management control of the REITs!
The stupid ones like the middle class folks buy REITs! :tongue3:
so? Someone need to get paid to do the job and take the risk. why don't u offer to work for free and bear the risk then?
at least the buyer are not over leveraged and get run over by leveraging too much and get forced into bankruptcy when the interest goes up!
many rich also buy REITs ! so do the middle class folks!
So the REIT companies can be allowed to take more risks? Otherwise why no CMs for the REITs? Not only that they have no TDSR, ABSD, they can print any amount of shares, bonds, to leverage to the tilt!
And The middle income folks cannot be allowed to take risks?! :sleep:
so? Someone need to get paid to do the job and take the risk. why don't u offer to work for free and bear the risk then?
at least the buyer are not over leveraged and get run over by leveraging too much and get forced into bankruptcy when the interest goes up!
many rich also buy REITs ! so do the middle class folks!
Make money, not war.
Differences in angles and viewpoints only. Chill...
Look at page 5. Compare June 2013 with Dec 2013 numbers on EP
http://www.aasingapore.com/media/files/files/34638a18/Employment_Pass_Presentation_2014.pdf
https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/10277038_10202573200944165_4452533469173252375_n.jpg
What your take from the Data.
What I see is the so call EP reduce due to clearing of the so call "EP holder paying the employer" and others. Do you believe the next data there will be a increase.
http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/singapore/marina_bay_business_financial_center_kpf120309_2.jpg
Do you know who is working there?
http://www.expat-blog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=104688&p=2
Many reasons can cause the rejection. Some of them:
1. Current Job scope totally different from your qualification
2. Company Not Good (Not Hiring Local hence not contributing to Singapore)
3. Your JOB can be easily replaced by Singaporean.
Singapore is trying to control the number of permit giving recently. They have been very strict.
First you open the gate, then when you have more than enough people you slowly close the gate and remove those not so good.
Why Singapore need so many FW? Answer is when we have a down turn we just stop the renewal of the EP whereas SC we need to find other work for them else they go to the Parliament drink coffee.
http://therealsingapore.com/sites/default/files/field/image/parliament_7_2.jpg
https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/10277038_10202573200944165_4452533469173252375_n.jpg
What your take from the Data.
What I see is the so call EP reduce due to clearing of the so call "EP holder paying the employer" and others. Do you believe the next data there will be a increase.
http://www.e-architect.co.uk/images/jpgs/singapore/marina_bay_business_financial_center_kpf120309_2.jpg
Do you know who is working there?
Bro look at this
http://www.mom.gov.sg/statistics-publications/others/statistics/Pages/ForeignWorkforceNumbers.aspx
Compare June 13 to Dec 13.
Hahahaha
Bro look at this
http://www.mom.gov.sg/statistics-publications/others/statistics/Pages/ForeignWorkforceNumbers.aspx
Compare June 13 to Dec 13.
Hahahaha
Don't understand, if you are talking about the error in the EP then use it as a guide. There is no ROI to be accurate on the figure, it just for entertainment.
https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/l/t1.0-9/10261966_10202573270105894_7348661462340166517_n.jpg
https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/t1.0-9/10277038_10202573200944165_4452533469173252375_n.jpg
If GDP were to grow, there are almost no non-painful options. The only way is to continue to allow more foreign workers. Singapore is an aging society. You can depend on old workers to run fast and hard.
Don't understand, if you are talking about the error in the EP then use it as a guide. There is no ROI to be accurate on the figure, it just for entertainment.
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/balance-between-local-and-foreign-workers-tricky-issue-tan-chuan-jin-2
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/20140216/sjctanchuanjin216e.jpg
Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin sought to explain the tension between keeping Singapore open to foreign talent, and ensuring locals are given fair consideration in jobs, at a community dialogue in Pasir Ris on Sunday.
His priority is to look after Singaporeans, he said, but the balance between local and foreign workers is a "tricky issue" and Singapore cannot shut its doors to foreigners.
"If we swing too far the other way... some of these companies might find it better off to operate somewhere else," he said, adding that it will then lead to job losses for locals.
The minister was responding to a question from resident Benjamin Wan, 49, who felt that he was victimised twice by bosses who preferred foreigners instead of locals.
- See more at: http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/balance-between-local-and-foreign-workers-tricky-issue-tan-chuan-jin-2#sthash.4JOg1dRq.dpuf
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Benjamin Wan should change his mindset, Older Singaporean are great product of PAP worker programming. They are program to be great worker and when the employer don't employ them they are lost.
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Give you a fish and you have fish for one day, teach you to fish and you have fish as and when you want.
Wolverine23
30-04-14, 20:21
So it seems like only the rich are still buying...
Time to whack!!!
So the REIT companies can be allowed to take more risks? Otherwise why no CMs for the REITs? Not only that they have no TDSR, ABSD, they can print any amount of shares, bonds, to leverage to the tilt!
And The middle income folks cannot be allowed to take risks?! :sleep:
YES REITs can go down but at most the person lost his cash not make bankrupt. . common people go take up big debt. later cash call they can be made bankrupt so who they blame u?. Also there are rules that guide the reits. so u dont know dont any how KP. REITS even more strict! Total debt ratio no more than 35%. bay haio dont smoke out.
Specific rules for REITs in Singapore
In Singapore, there are specific rules and regulations that a REIT has to abide by. Firstly, 90% of its net income must be distributed to its shareholders in the form of dividends. Unlike other listed companies, they do not have the liberty to choose to retain a higher percentage of their profits. Other than that, a minimum of 70% of their assets must be invested into properties and at least 75% of their income must be derived from rental income.
In Singapore, there are also specific requirements on how much debt REITs can incur. If the company does not have a credit rating, their debt to asset ratio cannot exceed 35%. And even if the company has a credit rating, their debt to asset ratio cannot exceed 60%. Such regulations have been enforced to ensure that REITs would not face the problem of over-borrowing. What this means is that if they purchase a property priced at S$100 million, the maximum amount they can borrow to finance the purchase is 60% of the property price, or S$60 million in this case.
REITs were first introduced to Singapore only 10 years ago, where the first REIT was Capital Mall Trust listed in 2001. However, the history of REITs dates back to as early as 1960 in the US. Today, there are over 180 REITs in the US, amounting to total assets worth about US$350 billion.
So the REIT companies can be allowed to take more risks? Otherwise why no CMs for the REITs? Not only that they have no TDSR, ABSD, they can print any amount of shares, bonds, to leverage to the tilt!
And The middle income folks cannot be allowed to take risks?! :sleep:
REITS even better those u so call common people with $1000 can participate. not limited to those rich common people u so call.
Advantages of investing in REITs
REITs allow investors to have the opportunity to invest in real estate with as little as S$1,000. Because each REIT typically owns a portfolio of properties, even by investing in a single REIT, you are effectively diversifying your money into several property projects. On the other hand, if you are to directly invest in real estate, the minimum capital required in Singapore would probably amount to at least S$100,000.
Today there are also thousands of Unit Trusts offered by various companies. And as we know now, even people like Warren Buffett are telling people to avoid Unit Trusts to avoid getting ripped off by the high expenses and management fees!
The same applies to REITs? :rolleyes:
YES REITs can go down but at most the person lost his cash not make bankrupt. . common people go take up big debt. later cash call they can be made bankrupt so who they blame u?. Also there are rules that guide the reits. so u dont know dont any how KP.
Specific rules for REITs in Singapore
In Singapore, there are specific rules and regulations that a REIT has to abide by. Firstly, 90% of its net income must be distributed to its shareholders in the form of dividends. Unlike other listed companies, they do not have the liberty to choose to retain a higher percentage of their profits. Other than that, a minimum of 70% of their assets must be invested into properties and at least 75% of their income must be derived from rental income.
In Singapore, there are also specific requirements on how much debt REITs can incur. If the company does not have a credit rating, their debt to asset ratio cannot exceed 35%. And even if the company has a credit rating, their debt to asset ratio cannot exceed 60%. Such regulations have been enforced to ensure that REITs would not face the problem of over-borrowing. What this means is that if they purchase a property priced at S$100 million, the maximum amount they can borrow to finance the purchase is 60% of the property price, or S$60 million in this case.
REITs were first introduced to Singapore only 10 years ago, where the first REIT was Capital Mall Trust listed in 2001. However, the history of REITs dates back to as early as 1960 in the US. Today, there are over 180 REITs in the US, amounting to total assets worth about US$350 billion.
Today there are also thousands of Unit Trusts offered by various companies. And as we know now, even people like Warren Buffett are telling people to avoid Unit Trusts to avoid getting ripped off by the high expenses and management fees!
The same applies to REITs? :rolleyes:
who the hack ask u go buy unit trust? like that u must well compare penny stocks punting or compare go buy gold bullion investment that dupe people. So u want to compare abt time shares too? in case u donno what is time shares its not traded on SGX hor.
READ.. things u dont understand better dont comment. Thing u dont understand u better not buy.
Can u explain to me the expense ratio in REITs? Reits pay out on ave 4-6% dividen. today u buy a physical property take up a big loan ur gross yield is at most 3%. nett yield is even lower. and are face with the burden of higher cash up front and the interest risk. yes there can be capital gain. but thats comes with the risk.
So can u explain the REITs expense ration that is duping people? U cannot explain REITs suddenly want to bring in Unit Trust. then try to mixt that with REITS? u trying to dupe people here?
want to quote warren? Let me quote u one too.! For your so call common people who want to over leverage ?
"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked!" -Warren Buffet
TDSR is basically to prevent people who want to jump into the pool naked. Save them the embarrassment when the tide rolls out of town! ur so call Rich can loose their shirt but still still have their trunks at least.! ur so naked swimmers are what TDSR is here to prevent!
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
Wait.. Let me predict!!! let me look at my crystal ball......... u want to bring up GST next? and mix that with unit Trust and then say its REITs with ERP? then go back and mix ABSD? an SSD? n CFD ? ETF and HFT u can also lump it too I think.. what else did I miss?
If the person is to own that commercial property directly, he would be getting >8% div for the same type of commercial property! An expense of 2-4% down the drain! :p
Otherwise you tell us is it that REIT owners and managers work for free for you and eat grass and subsidize you?
who the hack ask u go buy unit trust? like that u must well compare penny stocks punting or compare go buy gold bullion investment that dupe people. So u want to compare abt time shares too? in case u donno what is time shares its not traded on SGX hor.
READ.. things u dont understand better dont comment. Thing u dont understand u better not buy.
Can u explain to me the expense ratio in REITs? Reits pay out on ave 4-6% dividen. today u buy a physical property take up a big loan ur gross yield is at most 3%. nett yield is even lower. and are face with the burden of higher cash up front and the interest risk. yes there can be capital gain. but thats comes with the risk.
So can u explain the REITs expense ration that is duping people? U cannot explain REITs suddenly want to bring in Unit Trust. then try to mixt that with REITS? u trying to dupe people here?
want to quote warren? Let me quote u one too.! For your so call common people who want to over leverage ?
"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked!" -Warren Buffet
TDSR is basically to prevent people who want to jump into the pool naked. Save them the embarrassment when the tide rolls out of town! ur so call Rich can loose their shirt but still still have their trunks at least.! ur so naked swimmers are what TDSR is here to prevent!
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
who the hack ask u go buy unit trust? like that u must well compare penny stocks punting or compare go buy gold bullion investment that dupe people. So u want to compare abt time shares too? in case u donno what is time shares its not traded on SGX hor.
READ.. things u dont understand better dont comment. Thing u dont understand u better not buy.
Can u explain to me the expense ratio in REITs? Reits pay out on ave 4-6% dividen. today u buy a physical property take up a big loan ur gross yield is at most 3%. nett yield is even lower. and are face with the burden of higher cash up front and the interest risk. yes there can be capital gain. but thats comes with the risk.
So can u explain the REITs expense ration that is duping people? U cannot explain REITs suddenly want to bring in Unit Trust. then try to mixt that with REITS? u trying to dupe people here?
want to quote warren? Let me quote u one too.! For your so call common people who want to over leverage ?
"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked!" -Warren Buffet
TDSR is basically to prevent people who want to jump into the pool naked. Save them the embarrassment when the tide rolls out of town! ur so call Rich can loose their shirt but still still have their trunks at least.! ur so naked swimmers are what TDSR is here to prevent!
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
What I don't understand I don't buy.
What I know so far is SGD 108,000 buy 2 Bedroom at Southbank and 3 Bedroom PH at Terrasse, what return, what dividend, what ROE, ...... I don't understand I don't buy.
If Bank can loan me money I will still buy property. I need only to pay the deposit and there are so many people working for my investment to gain profit for me.
If the person is to own that commercial property directly, he would be getting >8% div for the same type of commercial property! An expense of 2-4% down the drain! :p
Otherwise you tell us is it that REIT owners and managers work for free for you and eat grass and subsidize you?
Then go buy a commerical property then if u have the money! dont have the $ and dont have a credit want to earn 8%??? and there are no mgmt fees to pay for property? no overheads? even u own urself u have to pay overheads. taxes, agent fees, maintenances... common dont bs us.
like u say the owners eat grass meh? they also have to take the credit risk. and the assest risk in a down turn.
go buy the commercial urself lor. cannot afford to pay the repayment when int go up and rental tank. the bank will come foreclose u. dont have a head so big dont blow it up so big.
Wolverine23
01-05-14, 05:49
REITS : yield is around 5 to 7%
Property without leverage: nett yield is 2 to 4%
Property with leverage: nett yield is 5 to 15% (excluding potential capital gains)
Where will u put your money?
My opinion, buy reits for small money. For big money, physical properties.
What I don't understand I don't buy.
What I know so far is SGD 108,000 buy 2 Bedroom at Southbank and 3 Bedroom PH at Terrasse, what return, what dividend, what ROE, ...... I don't understand I don't buy.
If Bank can loan me money I will still buy property. I need only to pay the deposit and there are so many people working for my investment to gain profit for me.
You sure you will buy now if bank loan you money.
you are lucky to get southbank at the right time.
If you bought it during 97 you would have tell different
storey right? Now you buy yield dont know even got 2%
Havent even talk about the tax.
REITS : yield is around 5 to 7%
Property without leverage: nett yield is 2 to 4%
Property with leverage: nett yield is 5 to 15% (excluding potential capital gains)
Where will u put your money?
My opinion, buy reits for small money. For big money, physical properties.
its a matter of have the finances to play. choose the right tool.
Wolverine23
01-05-14, 11:21
its a matter of have the finances to play. choose the right tool.
It all depends on the risk appetite too...
You are so right!
Imagine REIT paying you 5-7%, and they leverage to the hilt (exploiting all kind of financing available) to get net yield of 10-15%! Where the excess return goes to? Very easy, the salaries of the REITs executives and their perks and their men servicing them (not you)! :rolleyes:
So lesson? Only middle-income and low-income folks buy REITs!
If they want to become rich through investment, stop buying REITs!
REITS : yield is around 5 to 7%
Property without leverage: nett yield is 2 to 4%
Property with leverage: nett yield is 5 to 15% (excluding potential capital gains)
Where will u put your money?
My opinion, buy reits for small money. For big money, physical properties.
It all depends on the risk appetite too...
Well depends some have the appetite but dont have the real stomach to take the lost.
Wolverine23
02-05-14, 19:16
Well depends some have the appetite but dont have the real stomach to take the lost.
And some do not have the courage to even bring the food into the mouth? Haha
Wolverine23
03-05-14, 08:19
The longer the "crash" does not come, the higher the chances of another upwave...
The longer the "crash" does not come, the higher the chances of another upwave...
Under what circumstance does crash happens????
Look at history.
History is a guide... History is our teacher
Very open ended question. Will be interesting to see a pie chart of results. Whatever the biggest slice is, go for the opposite. If you believe in being contrarian, then that will be the answer!
invigorated
03-05-14, 13:07
Under what circumstance does crash happens????
Look at history.
History is a guide... History is our teacher
Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately as well, the dynamics of the market today are too different and complex to use old tools and charts of history as reference.
info flows too quickly, price falls and rises also move too speedily. We imagined a crisis and recession after Lehman, it touched us and left as fast.
Think 1 in 50 years and floods sprouted everywhere. History is getting a lot less relevant today.
Wolverine23
03-05-14, 13:09
Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately as well, the dynamics of the market today are too different and complex to use old tools and charts of history as reference.
info flows too quickly, price falls and rises also move too speedily. We imagined a crisis and recession after Lehman, it touched us and left as fast.
Think 1 in 50 years and floods sprouted everywhere. History is getting a lot less relevant today.
It's always hard to predict.
Fortune Favors the Bold.
invigorated
03-05-14, 13:18
It's always hard to predict.
Fortune Favors the Bold.
How do you define boldness? Just curious.. one who buys when no one is buying, when everyone is buying or just as long as they buy?
Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately as well, the dynamics of the market today are too different and complex to use old tools and charts of history as reference.
info flows too quickly, price falls and rises also move too speedily. We imagined a crisis and recession after Lehman, it touched us and left as fast.
Think 1 in 50 years and floods sprouted everywhere. History is getting a lot less relevant today.
What are the effects of low interest rates (based on history - any diff from QE?)
Lehman (gfc vs great depression, any diff????)
History guide us... But does not mean you take wholesale leh.....
I too tired to explain liao....
Going for vacation and relax myself.... Cheers
:cheers1::ashamed1::cheers1:
walkthetiger
03-05-14, 14:40
What are the effects of low interest rates (based on history - any diff from QE?)
Lehman (gfc vs great depression, any diff????)
History guide us... But does not mean you take wholesale leh.....
I too tired to explain liao....
Going for vacation and relax myself.... Cheers
:cheers1::ashamed1::cheers1:
After posting 3,491 since 08 like many of yours friends here, you need a rest indeed...rest well.... and return to help the people to see the right things...they need you...
Wolverine23
03-05-14, 14:43
How do you define boldness? Just curious.. one who buys when no one is buying, when everyone is buying or just as long as they buy?
1) when everyone is shouting crash n you buy, that's Bold.
2) when everyone says the prices are at the peak n you buy, that's Bold.
3) when u keep buying n buying n leveraging n leveraging, that's Bold.
Wolverine23
11-05-14, 07:37
Interest rates likely to stay low in the next 1 - 2 years.
Buy now and earn rental first? Real estate will likely to have another run in 2016?
I observed property crash news everyday on papers, internet, etc...
Bears are trying all they can to bring down the market?
hmm...
Interest rates likely to stay low in the next 1 - 2 years.
Buy now and earn rental first? Real estate will likely to have another run in 2016?
I observed property crash news everyday on papers, internet, etc...
Bears are trying all they can to bring down the market?
hmm...
Inflation will force property prices to go up. E.g. Imports from Malaysia accounts for about 11% of total imports in 2013. In Apr 2015, Malaysia will impost 6% GST. All construction materials from Malaysia will shoot up in prices probably by 10%. Good to buy a property now for own stay where there are decent discount (>5%) given by developers.
Interest rates likely to stay low in the next 1 - 2 years.
Buy now and earn rental first? Real estate will likely to have another run in 2016?
I observed property crash news everyday on papers, internet, etc...
Bears are trying all they can to bring down the market?
hmm...
General election is less than 2 years time.
If market crashed, existing owners will suffer heavy losses.
If cooling measures removed, property price will escalate again, hence the buyers will be upset.
It makes more sense for govt to maintain stability, market likely to be flat or decline slightly until 2016.
General election is less than 2 years time.
If market crashed, existing owners will suffer heavy losses.
If cooling measures removed, property price will escalate again, hence the buyers will be upset.
It makes more sense for govt to maintain stability, market likely to be flat or decline slightly until 2016.
After 2016, 10% gst will come. After that, all cost will increase. Once the national infrastructure development stabilises, FTs will flood Singapore..just a matter of time only.
Why must you tell...you know can already what
Wolverine23
13-05-14, 08:29
Inflation will force property prices to go up. E.g. Imports from Malaysia accounts for about 11% of total imports in 2013. In Apr 2015, Malaysia will impost 6% GST. All construction materials from Malaysia will shoot up in prices probably by 10%. Good to buy a property now for own stay where there are decent discount (>5%) given by developers.
Not good to buy for investment?
Any views on whether this is a good time to continue buying and buying?
Will property in Singapore continue to go higher and higher in the long term? (Ie. 15 to 20 years times)
I think very much depends on whether our govt is going ahead with 6.9m population. If it is then without doubts the prices will go up in the long run.
Any views on whether this is a good time to continue buying and buying?
Will property in Singapore continue to go higher and higher in the long term? (Ie. 15 to 20 years times)
I think very much depends on whether our govt is going ahead with 6.9m population. If it is then without doubts the prices will go up in the long run.
If you can afford anytime is a good time. Buy within your mean, after CM8 don't think price will chiong like 2006. Buy for rental yield.
It's fun to read back at an old thread I have dug up.
Honest to goodness, that was indeed a grim time for the market. Supply overhang, interest rates "about the rise", population measures, cooling measures... Indeed, we have come a long way.
You can see the views of other forummers and ex-forummers and how things had stayed or changed over more than three years.
TDSR has a strong levelling effect even for the rich if they have heavy existing housing and car loans.
Most of the existing forumers are still consistent on what they wrote in 2014 including yourself and myself. For me always stay vested rather than wait and wait for it to crash. If it crashes, can go in and catch some good deals. If it doesnt crash, staying vested will ensure at least some passive income.
Since 2014 till now....my mortgage has reduce by 100k paid for by tenant
fun to look back at our old posts indeed, below was one I posted in May 2009 saying how could the property price burst some more......... :chargrined:
Would be more interesting to see the property price burst, as I said, may be 12 years from then, that is 2009+12 = 2021?
I thought the property bubble already burst last year? :o How to burst again now? Next bubble in another 12 years time?
when the property price hikes cannot be matched by real income from employment and rental, price correction has to happen
when this happen, the worst scenario that bulls are afraid of is panic selling, when bulls compete with each other to exit market. (aka bubble burst)
that is the day bears are waiting to see now
for people who urgently need place to stay, no choice but have to buy...
for people looking for 2nd and 3rd property, hold on to your cash for now
for people already bought during 07/08 peaks, good luck to you
It's fun to read back at an old thread I have dug up.
Honest to goodness, that was indeed a grim time for the market. Supply overhang, interest rates "about the rise", population measures, cooling measures... Indeed, we have come a long way.
You can see the views of other forummers and ex-forummers and how things had stayed or changed over more than three years.
Yes yes, 4 more years of price growth if that's what you mean.
Anyway, my views did alter a little during this period.
2013 was the crimping of loans indeed and its effects were felt over the last 4 years. But over 4 years, income growth, new buyers coming onto market, and people clearing loans (such as car loans), decoupling, transferring properties etc, all these have cumulative effects on the markets, and private housing just like private cars will always have a strata of background or pent up demand.
I believe we are looking at a different ball game today as compared to 2013 / 2014.
In 2013, minister KBW called MM untested, now ST features SG couple living happily in HK nanoflat. What are the messages we are getting?
fun to look back at our old posts indeed, below was one I posted in May 2009 saying how could the property price burst some more......... :chargrined:
Would be more interesting to see the property price burst, as I said, may be 12 years from then, that is 2009+12 = 2021?
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