View Full Version : New PRs 'likely to eye private homes under $1m'
Published August 29, 2013
PRIVATE homes costing under $1 million may now draw keener interest among Singapore permanent residents (PRs) who have held their residency status for less than three years, and who are now blocked from buying HDB resale flats, property consultants say.
They added, however, that the shift to the private property segment by this group of buyers is unlikely to raise the number of private-home transactions significantly.
Mohamed Ismail, chief executive of PropNex Realty, said: "The increase in number of transactions in the private property market will not be huge, but it will also not be totally insignificant."
The HDB resale market recorded 25,094 transactions last year. The HDB said a fifth of resale flats are bought by PRs.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/premium/singapore/new-prs-likely-eye-private-homes-under-1m-20130829
demand for HDB resale dip while those of pte will increase.
so finally HDB $ is gonna delink fm pte?
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 10:57
You need to be in the shoes of a PR to understand what they are looking at.
Like what the expat forumer said, HDB resale flats are still a lot cheaper than private flats.
But the most important consideration for PRs when come to housing is that they would compare buying a flat vs renting one. By buying a HDB resale flat, the PR stands to recoup all the money thrown into housing when the HDB resale flat is eventually sold prior to the PR family leaving Singapore. With a bit of luck, he might even be able to make a good capital gain on selling his HDB resale flat. If the PR rents a flat, he will never be able to recoup any rentals when he leaves.
For example, assuming the PR pays $2,000 per month to rent a HDB flat and assuming he will work in Singapore for the next 20 years before deciding to retire back in his home country, his total rental expenses will be $480,000 for the whole of 20 years. This money, of course, cannot be recovered.
Assuming he buys a 4 room HDB resale at $500,000, he will still come out better even if he loses, say, $300,000 (including interests) when he sells his flat 20 years later. And certainly, the downside risk in buying a HDB resale flat is a lot lesser than buying a private one.
In their minds, PRs will tend to compare with rentals. And for this reason, they are also more willing to aggressively bid for a HDB resale flat.
but the problem is, they r unable to buy HDB within the 1st 3 yrs.
so now the option for PRs is either:
1. rent HDB for 3 yrs and den buy resale hdb
2. buy resale condo and den buy resale hdb after 4 yrs.
which one is better?
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 11:19
If you are an average PR, would you go and buy a $1m PC or wait 3 years to buy $400K resale flat? Renting for 3 years is only about $70K vs paying 50K of ABSD upright when buying a PC now..
princess_morbucks
29-08-13, 11:24
The new PRs usually will rent at least 1 year before they buy, unless they have been in SG for a few years before getting their PR.
So overall not much effect.
If you are an average PR, would you go and buy a $1m PC or wait 3 years to buy $400K resale flat? Renting for 3 years is only about $70K vs paying 50K of ABSD upright when buying a PC now..
ABSD is 5% nia for PR rite? so pte resale de ABSD oni ard $25-35k if buy ard ppty of price range $550-$700k.
shdnt be counting normal BSD since resale HDB oso will hv BSD.
u oso din factor in how much the pte ppty would hv appreciated after the 3 yrs.
in the end, might be worser off renting for the 1st 3 yrs wor!
walkthetiger
29-08-13, 11:43
If you are an average PR, would you go and buy a $1m PC or wait 3 years to buy $400K resale flat? Renting for 3 years is only about $70K vs paying 50K of ABSD upright when buying a PC now..
Factoring the quality and size of $1m PC, the choice of average PR seems clear to all.
but the problem is, they r unable to buy HDB within the 1st 3 yrs.
so now the option for PRs is either:
1. rent HDB for 3 yrs and den buy resale hdb
2. buy resale condo and den buy resale hdb after 4 yrs.
which one is better?
Another option for the talentless low pay foreigners especially those from North, is to rent in JB and wait the 3 years...all the properties near Holiday Plaza or Taman Sentosa area, huat ah!!!
Another option for the talentless low pay foreigners especially those from North, is to rent in JB and wait the 3 years...all the properties near Holiday Plaza or Taman Sentosa area, huat ah!!!
I srsly dun tink the bulk of PRs r high earners. Most shd still be under the $5k pay. 3 more yrs of rental expense is a lot.
Lol! I oso tink tis new rule might cause more new msian PR to rent in JB instead. No wonder more & more Singaporeans turned their attn to JB ppty liao, haha …
walkthetiger
29-08-13, 11:51
The new PRs usually will rent at least 1 year before they buy, unless they have been in SG for a few years before getting their PR.
So overall not much effect.
There also so many average foreigners affected, this group was all along eyeing on HBD but waiting for PR status.
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 11:56
ABSD is 5% nia for PR rite? so pte resale de ABSD oni ard $25-35k if buy ard ppty of price range $550-$700k.
shdnt be counting normal BSD since resale HDB oso will hv BSD.
u oso din factor in how much the pte ppty would hv appreciated after the 3 yrs.
in the end, might be worser off renting for the 1st 3 yrs wor!
Again one has to think like a typical PR to know what they are looking at.
If they spend $2K on renting a HDB flat means that his family needs the space. If he choose to buy, he would probably buy a 4-rm HDB flat for $400k. He would not pay $500K to $700K for a PC half the size of the 4-rm flat.
The risk of holding a resale 4-rm flat is much lower than holding a $1m PC especially this PR has no intention of staying put in Singapore.
I srsly dun tink the bulk of PRs r high earners. Most shd still be under the $5k pay. 3 more yrs of rental expense is a lot.
Lol! I oso tink tis new rule might cause more new msian PR to rent in JB instead. No wonder more & more Singaporeans turned their attn to JB ppty liao, haha …
Yes, actually I am quite attracted to those landed property in between KSL and Holiday Plaza for own stay or maybe rent out.
Yes, actually I am quite attracted to those landed property in between KSL and Holiday Plaza for own stay or maybe rent out.
but I heard rental market for msia is not as lucrative as in sg leh ...
personally I find it a risk to stay in msia. no matter how cheap oso no use, my life more precious.
danger aside, it is afterall not sg govt. u oso dunno wat mischief their govt will be up to in the future ...
Again one has to think like a typical PR to know what they are looking at.
If they spend $2K on renting a HDB flat means that his family needs the space. If he choose to buy, he would probably buy a 4-rm HDB flat for $400k. He would not pay $500K to $700K for a PC half the size of the 4-rm flat.
The risk of holding a resale 4-rm flat is much lower than holding a $1m PC especially this PR has no intention of staying put in Singapore.
so wat do u tink will happen when there is not enuff HDB for rental in the market?
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 12:11
so wat do u tink will happen when there is not enuff HDB for rental in the market?
The rental market is one big one consisting of HDB flats and mass market PCs for this segment of the market. If there is an oversupply of PCs, rental will fall and some will migrate to PC rental. Market forces will find its way.
The rental market is one big one consisting of HDB flats and mass market PCs for this segment of the market. If there is an oversupply of PCs, rental will fall and some will migrate to PC rental. Market forces will find its way.
I suppose a lot of OCR condos who currently unable to find tenants did indeed benefited from tis new measure.
take NV resi at pasir ris for eg. 3 bedder $3.5k nego. HDB 5 rm flat abt $2.8k in similar loc.
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 12:29
I suppose a lot of OCR condos who currently unable to find tenants did indeed benefited from tis new measure.
take NV resi at pasir ris for eg. 3 bedder $3.5k nego. HDB 5 rm flat abt $2.8k in similar loc.
Bearing in mind that many upgraders are renting out their HDB flats and not selling them means that there are a lot more HDB flats available for rental.
Should HDB at a later stage mend the rule not to allow renting of entire flat, some upgraders may decide to move back to their HDB flats leaving their PCs for rental. Some upgraders may choose to sell their HDB flats instead and continue to live in their PCs.
As long as there is no shortage of rented flats be it HDB or private, these PRs make their decisions to buy or rent base on the amount of rental they are going to pay verse buying their own and the risk of holding the properties given that most PRs have no intention of staying put.
Bearing in mind that many upgraders are renting out their HDB flats and not selling them means that there are a lot more HDB flats available for rental.
Should HDB at a later stage mend the rule not to allow renting of entire flat, some upgraders may decide to move back to their HDB flats leaving their PCs for rental. Some upgraders may choose to sell their HDB flats instead and continue to live in their PCs.
As long as there is no shortage of rented flats be it HDB or private, these PRs make their decisions to buy or rent base on the amount of rental they are going to pay verse buying their own and the risk of holding the properties given that most PRs have no intention of staying put.
I note your emphasis that most PRs do not intend to stay for good.
And I agree 100% with you!
In the circumstances, we should just let them loose to buy from Singaporeans and benefit the locals. When they sell their properties and leave for good, IRAS can impose special levy on the profit made by PRs on residential properties. Same rationale for foreigners buying PCs.
5yr EC is a better choice for PRs who are barred from buying HDB, compared to more expensive PC.
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/premium/singapore/new-prs-likely-eye-private-homes-under-1m-20130829
Published August 29, 2013
New PRs 'likely to eye private homes under $1m'
But such buyers unlikely to raise demand by much: property watchers
By Felda Chay
[email protected]
PRIVATE homes costing under $1 million may now draw keener interest among Singapore permanent residents (PRs) who have held their residency status for less than three years, and who are now blocked from buying HDB resale flats, property consultants say.
They added, however, that the shift to the private property segment by this group of buyers is unlikely to raise the number of private-home transactions significantly.
Mohamed Ismail, chief executive of PropNex Realty, said: "The increase in number of transactions in the private property market will not be huge, but it will also not be totally insignificant."
The HDB resale market recorded 25,094 transactions last year. The HDB said a fifth of resale flats are bought by PRs.
The government had announced this week that Singapore PR households with no Singapore-citizen owner will have to wait three years from the date of obtaining their PR status before they become eligible to buy a resale HDB flat.
Yesterday, the HDB clarified that if PR applicants want to buy such a flat together, both must meet the three-year wait-out period before a sale can be inked. The sale cannot go through if just one of two potential buyers of a flat meets the condition. In cases where there is only one buyer, at least one other PR essential occupier who forms a family unit with the buyer will have to have fulfilled the wait-out period.
Mr Ismail said: "So let's say about 5,000 HDB resale flats are bought by PRs every year. Since some PR buyers will actually meet the three-year requirement, and some may choose to rent, the number of PRs who choose to buy private property could add 2,000 or so transactions a year."
Steven Tan, the managing director of OrangeTee, said private homes costing less than $1 million will see the keenest interest from this group of buyers, because they are likely to be middle-income families and unlikely to shell out large sums of money for a home.
"Many may not be prepared to rent because there are no returns to that investment. So they may end up buying a private home," he said.
Homes below $1 million will also make for a more manageable amount in additional buyers' stamp duty, so such properties will be in "high demand", noted Eugene Lim of ERA Realty.
Aside from the three-year wait-out period, the government also announced that resale flat buyers who take HDB loans will henceforth be able to use only up to 30 per cent of their gross monthly income to repay their loans, down from 35 per cent.
And they can take only up to 25 years to repay HDB housing loans, down from 30 years previously; bank loans taken to buy HDB flats must be paid up in 30 years, down from 35.
The government also announced an enhanced Special CPF Housing Grant (SHG), which will be extended to middle-income families earning up to $6,500 and buying four-room flats. Previously, the SHG was pitched only at families earning up to $2,250 and seeking to buy two-room and three-room flats.
In a Facebook posting yesterday, National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan said the enhancement will cost the government at least $150 million more a year.
"This will raise our current housing grants for new flats (the Additional CPF Housing Grant and SHG) from about $290 million to over $440 million a year.
"The enhancement is not a trivial policy shift, but a significant one made after careful consideration."
edwinleeap
29-08-13, 13:02
5yr EC is a better choice for PRs who are barred from buying HDB, compared to more expensive PC.
Very sharp to see this
5yr EC is a better choice for PRs who are barred from buying HDB, compared to more expensive PC.
psf wise, I agree wif u, resale EC is more worth den PC but EC quantum is bigger in general, hence affordability is an issue.
psf wise, I agree wif u, resale EC is more worth den PC but EC quantum is bigger in general, hence affordability is an issue.
for a 3 bedder 5yr EC, the price tag is generally under 1 mil, which is considered affordable for the aflluent ones (PR).
You need to be in the shoes of a PR to understand what they are looking at.
Like what the expat forumer said, HDB resale flats are still a lot cheaper than private flats.
But the most important consideration for PRs when come to housing is that they would compare buying a flat vs renting one. By buying a HDB resale flat, the PR stands to recoup all the money thrown into housing when the HDB resale flat is eventually sold prior to the PR family leaving Singapore. With a bit of luck, he might even be able to make a good capital gain on selling his HDB resale flat. If the PR rents a flat, he will never be able to recoup any rentals when he leaves.
For example, assuming the PR pays $2,000 per month to rent a HDB flat and assuming he will work in Singapore for the next 20 years before deciding to retire back in his home country, his total rental expenses will be $480,000 for the whole of 20 years. This money, of course, cannot be recovered.
Assuming he buys a 4 room HDB resale at $500,000, he will still come out better even if he loses, say, $300,000 (including interests) when he sells his flat 20 years later. And certainly, the downside risk in buying a HDB resale flat is a lot lesser than buying a private one.
In their minds, PRs will tend to compare with rentals. And for this reason, they are also more willing to aggressively bid for a HDB resale flat.
Let's ask the gov to ban them buying hdb! Foreigners/pr should just be restricted to pte condo., not even landed!
A few of my PR friends are more lucky(slightly better income) as they can still bite bullet and buy private condo or apartment to stay.
They choose not to buy HDB for a simple reason, not going to grow root here, but interested to tap Singapore growth where they can keep the unit as investment after they decided to leave for good. Since it is private, they need not forced to sell and can officially rent out or wait for capital appreciation.
The view is no many country have a good rental potential and Singapore is definitely is one of these country and above all the stable SGD. :D
Let's ask the gov to ban them buying hdb! Foreigners/pr should just be restricted to pte condo., not even landed!
I tot landed all along can oni be purchased by sinkies nia?
I dun tink govt will ban them completely cos tat would means tat sinkies will hv problem finding buyers for their HDB flats ...
I tink a better way is to make PR pay ABSD on hdb flat as well, hahaha :D
Yes, actually I am quite attracted to those landed property in between KSL and Holiday Plaza for own stay or maybe rent out.
For own stay is ok but if hope to sell later might want to reconsider as I just read in Sammyboy LivinginJB forum that they might ban reselling of properties to foreigners...there was an article in one Kampongsinchew daily, dunno if reliable tho, still trying to find out...
For own stay is ok but if hope to sell later might want to reconsider as I just read in Sammyboy LivinginJB forum that they might ban reselling of properties to foreigners...there was an article in one Kampongsinchew daily, dunno if reliable tho, still trying to find out...
even if it is for own stay it is still not ok cos cannot resell to foreigners means tat it's gonna be a white elephant! :scared-4:
my dear fellow bros, 不要贪小便宜。
好货非便宜;便宜非好货。
furthermore to invest in ppty dominated in a depreciating currency is a bad, bad strategy! :doh:
All your discussions are based on the assumptions that PRs have to stay in Singapore.
Put yourself in PRs' shoes, don't you find PR status less attractive? So, another consequence is to leave Singapore for other cities; and those holding EP will not apply PRs and leave Singapore earlier too.
And then what happens to our rental income?
but the problem is, they r unable to buy HDB within the 1st 3 yrs.
so now the option for PRs is either:
1. rent HDB for 3 yrs and den buy resale hdb
2. buy resale condo and den buy resale hdb after 4 yrs.
which one is better?
they will just continue to rent and buy 3 yrs later. No big deal.
All your discussions are based on the assumptions that PRs have to stay in Singapore.
Put yourself in PRs' shoes, don't you find PR status less attractive? So, another consequence is to leave Singapore for other cities; and those holding EP will not apply PRs and leave Singapore earlier too.
And then what happens to our rental income?
not tat we assume PRs will stay in spore, but spore still proves to be one of the better countries to migrate to.
I imagine myself as a PR, I will find spore far more attractive than my native country (esp those from msia, Indonesia, china). though spore ppty is expensive, but since it is guaranteed by govt, it is worth investing.
so if Im a PR, I wun even wanna rent. I will straight away buy condo/EC.
they will just continue to rent and buy 3 yrs later. No big deal.
oh really? but economist is scared tat they will not come to spore anymore wor!
oh really? but economist is scared tat they will not come to spore anymore wor!
Just being cautious, Singapore may not always be attractive, and one day when it gets "old", this policy may further turn PRs (or PRs-to-be) away, remember how bad the rental market was in 2005?
Amber Woods
29-08-13, 15:00
Just being cautious, Singapore may not always be attractive, and one day when it gets "old", this policy may further turn PRs (or PRs-to-be) away, remember how bad the rental market was in 2005?
Policy changes as the needs of the country changes. The policy was more liberal when we need to take in huge numbers of FTs and PRs years back. Now that the numbers have been filled, there is a need to tune the policy to attract the desired people to come here. The country is evolving and so will its policy.
The government is doing a reasonable good job in balancing its economic, social and political needs. It will change again when the time comes. The challenge for the government is always to find the right mix at the right time. In this regards, the government sometimes get it wrong but more often, they always try to right their wrongs very promptly.
Just being cautious, Singapore may not always be attractive, and one day when it gets "old", this policy may further turn PRs (or PRs-to-be) away, remember how bad the rental market was in 2005?
besides the secured & lucrative ppty marke here, spore is esp attractive to foreigners from developing/under-developed countries due to strong S$.
I feel tat the impact is not as great as wat u had magnified.
For the average PRs, no impact cos anyway they cannot afford to buy resale so soon. So no diff to delay to 3 yrs later.
For the abv average PRs, they can still consider ECs which is not so exp. or alternatively convert to citizens asap lor ....
Policy changes as the needs of the country changes. The policy was more liberal when we need to take in huge numbers of FTs and PRs years back. Now that the numbers have been filled, there is a need to tune the policy to attract the desired people to come here. The country is evolving and so will its policy.
The government is doing a reasonable good job in balancing its economic, social and political needs. It will change again when the time comes. The challenge for the government is always to find the right mix at the right time. In this regards, the government sometimes get it wrong but more often, they always try to right their wrongs very promptly.
hopefully so.
hopefully so.
dun worrie, if they chose to leave or not to come, I suppose they r not the foreign talents tat Singapore sought to attract in the 1st place.
in fact, tis measure is gd such tat it serves to filter away those PRs who had the intention to profit from spore ppty yet at the same time no intention to convert to sporeans.
those genuine foreigners who really perceive spore as an ideal home wun mind the temporal add'l expenses; and in return, we sinkies shd welcome such talents to be part of us :)
oh really? but economist is scared tat they will not come to spore anymore wor!
he wants to mollycoddle them, that's his business.
ironmanpower
29-08-13, 15:51
You think all PRs can fork out $200k+ Cash/CPF downpayment for a suburban condo?
You think all PRs can fork out $200k+ Cash/CPF downpayment for a suburban condo?
many PRC prs are loaded
You think all PRs can fork out $200k+ Cash/CPF downpayment for a suburban condo?
not all... but 200K is peanut for MANY PRs.
Xu Xiao Xia
29-08-13, 17:10
Just being cautious, Singapore may not always be attractive, and one day when it gets "old", this policy may further turn PRs (or PRs-to-be) away, remember how bad the rental market was in 2005?
Dear economist, if you go to Geneva for an in depth tour, you will find that 2005 is going to be history for some time. Now, Lee Hsien Loong is going to the West of China for guanxi. Singapore is the Geneva of Asia and according to American intelligence, will surpass Zurich and Geneva combined as a private banking centre within the decade. Switzerland land size is something between Malaysia and Taiwan. Singapore is 3X smaller than Iskandar. For Singapore to have the same population as the Swiss with such a small area, there is just no turning back. There is just no place in Asia that can beat Singapore as the private banking hub for rich Chinese and Aseanites. That said, its still difficult to determine the equilibrium $psf in Singapore. My trips to Geneva tells me that so long as OCR is around $1200, its about what you would pay for an apartment in suburban Geneva. Still not too risky a bet.
Quite frankly, those PRs that can't pay for $psf 1200, they should not come here to strain the infrastructural system. Let the average Singaporean re-skill, up-skill and grow that stagnant wage. The government has got the formula right this time. Someone mentioned that a plate of fried noodles will cost 10 dollars. Yes, in Finland, a can of diet coke cost Sing $7.00. Singaporeans will have to adjust eventually. Those who have been to Tokyo should know roughly what its going to be like and Singapore looks set to even surpass Tokyo in terms of daily cost of living. It sounds scary now but this policy will cause real wages to grow and accommodate higher prices.
even if it is for own stay it is still not ok cos cannot resell to foreigners means tat it's gonna be a white elephant! :scared-4:
my dear fellow bros, 不要贪小便宜。
好货非便宜;便宜非好货。
furthermore to invest in ppty dominated in a depreciating currency is a bad, bad strategy! :doh:
Msia SPR are not bounded by this policy, and buying with max local loan quantum at 90% will hedge the currency depreciation somewhat...how much lower can it go 1SGD:4RM?
In anycase a $2K SGD budget = $5K RM, they can afford to but property costing $1M RM already.....even sea facing condo like Country Garden Danga Bay.
More so if they are Bumis, get $15% discount.
And if they have non-working relative to drive them in Malaysian car to work....or their kids to school......best of both world.
and i see many graduates every year coming out from all our universities. this is their time to step and rise to the occasion and make singapore attractive. with their backs to the wall, i am pretty sure they will evolve and be more hungry.
HDB COVs are already down and not many HDB resale transactions happening. Remember, that whenever a HDB transaction happens, it goes out of the rental market because of the MOP.Also now with lot of tightening of FT, the demand of HDB rental is not like it was in 2010-11.
You will notice from the last 2 years 3 room flat in outskirts is 2k-2.2k. Breifly I used to see in between it rise to as much as 2.5k but now again back to 2-2.2k.
So I see the HDB rental market softening a lot and rents remaining depressed, especially considering the number of more condos oversupply coming.
Given that background and considering how much xenophobic Singaporeans and how the gahmen is making it tougher and tougher for PRs and Foreigners, my thinking is PRs are now going to think even more short term.
I know many PRs that earn easily 7.5-8k especially those working in banking. These guys dont mind renting at 2k, compared to the uncertainity due to these 2 reasons:
1)Singaporeans and the Gahmen becoming more and more alienated to them
2)The job market is getting tougher and tougher and jobs moving to better locations that are even cheaper than Singapore.
PRs would rather not take any risk of buying under these circumstances. They can rent and still save easily $4k a month, which is better than what they save in their home country.
Dear economist, if you go to Geneva for an in depth tour, you will find that 2005 is going to be history for some time. Now, Lee Hsien Loong is going to the West of China for guanxi. Singapore is the Geneva of Asia and according to American intelligence, will surpass Zurich and Geneva combined as a private banking centre within the decade. Switzerland land size is something between Malaysia and Taiwan. Singapore is 3X smaller than Iskandar. For Singapore to have the same population as the Swiss with such a small area, there is just no turning back. There is just no place in Asia that can beat Singapore as the private banking hub for rich Chinese and Aseanites. That said, its still difficult to determine the equilibrium $psf in Singapore. My trips to Geneva tells me that so long as OCR is around $1200, its about what you would pay for an apartment in suburban Geneva. Still not too risky a bet.
Quite frankly, those PRs that can't pay for $psf 1200, they should not come here to strain the infrastructural system. Let the average Singaporean re-skill, up-skill and grow that stagnant wage. The government has got the formula right this time. Someone mentioned that a plate of fried noodles will cost 10 dollars. Yes, in Finland, a can of diet coke cost Sing $7.00. Singaporeans will have to adjust eventually. Those who have been to Tokyo should know roughly what its going to be like and Singapore looks set to even surpass Tokyo in terms of daily cost of living. It sounds scary now but this policy will cause real wages to grow and accommodate higher prices.
Lol! Are you serious? Comparing Singapore with Geneva?
Read this article:
http://business.asiaone.com/news/career/do-sporean-workers-deserve-their-wages
This paragraph kind of sums it up:
"Singapore is not a developed country in the sense of Japan or Germany or Switzerland where the average worker is well-trained and of high quality...
"The German engineer is behind scores of world-class SMEs that populate various small towns across Germany. Ditto for Japan and Switzerland... The SME boss in Woodlands and Bukit Batok is not competing with SMEs in the US and Japan but with those in China and Vietnam.
"Singapore's high GDP is not because of high-quality local workers and companies but because of the more than 7,000 MNCs that use this as a hub to produce world- class products and services. This crucial difference needs to be kept in mind."
many PRC prs are loaded
U think so? The loaded 1 will not touch hdb
HDB COVs are already down and not many HDB resale transactions happening. Remember, that whenever a HDB transaction happens, it goes out of the rental market because of the MOP.Also now with lot of tightening of FT, the demand of HDB rental is not like it was in 2010-11.
You will notice from the last 2 years 3 room flat in outskirts is 2k-2.2k. Breifly I used to see in between it rise to as much as 2.5k but now again back to 2-2.2k.
So I see the HDB rental market softening a lot and rents remaining depressed, especially considering the number of more condos oversupply coming.
Given that background and considering how much xenophobic Singaporeans and how the gahmen is making it tougher and tougher for PRs and Foreigners, my thinking is PRs are now going to think even more short term.
I know many PRs that earn easily 7.5-8k especially those working in banking. These guys dont mind renting at 2k, compared to the uncertainity due to these 2 reasons:
1)Singaporeans and the Gahmen becoming more and more alienated to them
2)The job market is getting tougher and tougher and jobs moving to better locations that are even cheaper than Singapore.
PRs would rather not take any risk of buying under these circumstances. They can rent and still save easily $4k a month, which is better than what they save in their home country.
Many xenophobic folks or jealous folks think buy removing pr n hoping for a crash in hdb they can buy cheap. Reality is they are shooting themselves in the feet.
They can say bye bye to their social mobility to PC. Coz the gap will get bigger hdb verses pc.
I can say the people are narrow minded . Well wat to do the people need to learn the pain. Pride comes before a fall. Taking things for granted.
not all... but 200K is peanut for MANY PRs.
Obviously u dont know many PR. Many of them are not that well to do.they come here seeking better future n work experience. At the same time they are renting also. Expense wise is higher here too. But it's the exposure n Medtronic system they envy.
So don't think all PR are rich. Rich ones don't bother with hdbs.
oh really? but economist is scared tat they will not come to spore anymore wor!
U will loose the middle class PR. So to me the ones who loose are hdb owners. Less tenant n less resale chance. Bye bye to upgrade. Good that's what the pple ask for right? Low growth.
Low growth means less social mobility. Don't mean PC will be cheap .
Just being cautious, Singapore may not always be attractive, and one day when it gets "old", this policy may further turn PRs (or PRs-to-be) away, remember how bad the rental market was in 2005?
Like I say pple have to learn the hard way.
Let's ask the gov to ban them buying hdb! Foreigners/pr should just be restricted to pte condo., not even landed!
Good lets create a Singaporean getto. Let the Foreginers get good quality housings n keep locals in hdb getto without much chance to upgrade.
Bravo ! to narrow n short sightness.
I tot landed all along can oni be purchased by sinkies nia?
I dun tink govt will ban them completely cos tat would means tat sinkies will hv problem finding buyers for their HDB flats ...
I tink a better way is to make PR pay ABSD on hdb flat as well, hahaha :D
No lah. If the pple want just give them wat they want. A getto without a chance to upgrade.
There is some element of truth in the cooling measures really deterring the middle professionals instead. I have no qualms with the cooling measures keeping prices stable .... But what the recent measures did was to result in plummeting of resale HDB prices and resulted in a lot of people having their dreams of upgrading into a PC dashed .... They have saved and worked hard against all odds and basis current regime could have afforded an OCR condo but now when they tried to sell off their resale ... Suddenly a plummet of 100K or more of their initial selling price due to no PRs being able to purchase within 3 years ...... How is this fair for the citizens whom have aspired and worked hard to want to reach ther upgrading goals and suddenly back to square one now ?
The latest series of measures taken in totality just issued this year is not beneficial to the common folks ... Instead of benefiting resale owners .... Most of them are now stuck and becoming more resentful of the government .... Be very careful what you wish for
There is some element of truth in the cooling measures really deterring the middle professionals instead. I have no qualms with the cooling measures keeping prices stable .... But what the recent measures did was to result in plummeting of resale HDB prices and resulted in a lot of people having their dreams of upgrading into a PC dashed .... They have saved and worked hard against all odds and basis current regime could have afforded an OCR condo but now when they tried to sell off their resale ... Suddenly a plummet of 100K or more of their initial selling price due to no PRs being able to purchase within 3 years ...... How is this fair for the citizens whom have aspired and worked hard to want to reach ther upgrading goals and suddenly back to square one now ?
The latest series of measures taken in totality just issued this year is not beneficial to the common folks ... Instead of benefiting resale owners .... Most of them are now stuck and becoming more resentful of the government .... Be very careful what you wish for
The problem is the people want resale hdb flat price to come down u can see in those forums, Hong Lim park and TV interviews, our national conversation. If price of resale hdb don't come down WP use it as a topic to attack in the next election. To attack and create negative sentiment is very easy, people are easily influence. Miss the boat and those youngers and those goondo parents who think their children cannot afford it in future want it so cannot blame the govt.
invigorated
01-09-13, 10:14
There is some element of truth in the cooling measures really deterring the middle professionals instead. I have no qualms with the cooling measures keeping prices stable .... But what the recent measures did was to result in plummeting of resale HDB prices and resulted in a lot of people having their dreams of upgrading into a PC dashed .... They have saved and worked hard against all odds and basis current regime could have afforded an OCR condo but now when they tried to sell off their resale ... Suddenly a plummet of 100K or more of their initial selling price due to no PRs being able to purchase within 3 years ...... How is this fair for the citizens whom have aspired and worked hard to want to reach ther upgrading goals and suddenly back to square one now ?
The latest series of measures taken in totality just issued this year is not beneficial to the common folks ... Instead of benefiting resale owners .... Most of them are now stuck and becoming more resentful of the government .... Be very careful what you wish for
have prices plummeted by 100k when you made this statement? are PRs the only buyers? didn't prices still rise, though at a more digestible rate, before the snapping up by PRs?
I don't see how more are resentful? is so why was the high cost of housing one of the hot topics when the govt had surveyed the ground?
Mr tharman and khaw have repeated made points that they are soft landing prices, where people listening?
if you look at it on a macro level, this measure is beneficial in the long term, with more quality PRs and lower rates of increase or stabilisation. The govt wont crash the prices, they have more stats to back themselves than we think.
most of those who buy hdb should not be looking at short term price appreciation anyway, it's more of a roof over their heads. dips wouldn't affect them, it's just paper value. the real impact is on the younger generation who are going to buy.
The problem is the people want resale hdb flat price to come down u can see in those forums, Hong Lim park and TV interviews, our national conversation. If price of resale hdb don't come down WP use it as a topic to attack in the next election. To attack and create negative sentiment is very easy, people are easily influence. Miss the boat and those youngers and those goondo parents who think their children cannot afford it in future want it so cannot blame the govt.
This is so true!
have prices plummeted by 100k when you made this statement? are PRs the only buyers? didn't prices still rise, though at a more digestible rate, before the snapping up by PRs?
I don't see how more are resentful? is so why was the high cost of housing one of the hot topics when the govt had surveyed the ground?
Mr tharman and khaw have repeated made points that they are soft landing prices, where people listening?
if you look at it on a macro level, this measure is beneficial in the long term, with more quality PRs and lower rates of increase or stabilisation. The govt wont crash the prices, they have more stats to back themselves than we think.
most of those who buy hdb should not be looking at short term price appreciation anyway, it's more of a roof over their heads. dips wouldn't affect them, it's just paper value. the real impact is on the younger generation who are going to buy.
Price has plummeted at the time
Of my writing. It's not benefiting current resale HDB owners so it could be a hot topic due to current HDB potential buyers.
Not trying to pick an argument here. But this are the sentiments felt by current resale owner sellers. No point talking about macro level or long term. They saved for a long period of time prior and when the time seems to be appropriate for them to invest in an upgrade the suddenly flurry of cooling measures this particular year really costs a tide and sudden shift.
I think there are a total of not less than 3 measures this year already dished out. If you include the 60% TDSR as an additional measure as well. Whether banks are already practicing it, the fact remains that banks are becoming a lot more prudent and conservative in mortgage lending approval. I experienced this first hand in my own potential mortgage application not too long ago
The problem is the people want resale hdb flat price to come down u can see in those forums, Hong Lim park and TV interviews, our national conversation. If price of resale hdb don't come down WP use it as a topic to attack in the next election. To attack and create negative sentiment is very easy, people are easily influence. Miss the boat and those youngers and those goondo parents who think their children cannot afford it in future want it so cannot blame the govt.
This is also true. Expensive now will be more expensive for their children to come. But dip now also not mean prices will stabilize for the foreseeable future generation with more wealthy PRs coming into the picture.
MTB now seems to not able to join back as I dun see private condo prices going down but I see as a fact now that resale HDB COV dropping and hence potentially a greater divide between HDB owners and condo owners
The risk of resale hdb flats drop in price will come when those who need to sell their hdb flat within 6 months after their EC TOP.
The risk of resale hdb flats drop in price will come when those who need to sell their hdb flat within 6 months after their EC TOP.
So many EC sold. This translate to many resale hdb put on market. Supply more than deman, welcome to negative cov era.
This is also true. Expensive now will be more expensive for their children to come. But dip now also not mean prices will stabilize for the foreseeable future generation with more wealthy PRs coming into the picture.
MTB now seems to not able to join back as I dun see private condo prices going down but I see as a fact now that resale HDB COV dropping and hence potentially a greater divide between HDB owners and condo owners
Very Very true, I see a disenchanted social class of true blue singaporeans in the making .. neither here nor there .. being priced out by higher ppty prices by CMs and inflations while their HDB resale price may not catch up with pte properties.. mean while the continuous influx of PRs and rich new Citizens may drive pte ppty beyond their reach ..
The social class divides further widens and deepens ...as populations creeps up with stagnated growth of true blue singaporeans populace among a growing imflux of foreigner and PRs coming to our shore to enjoy the peace, stability, infrastructures for next 10-15 years without converting to S'pore citizens. :banghead:
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 12:00
If we care to think deeper, the people who are affected by the new measures are those who have already committed to their PCs or ECs and are hoping to sell their HDB flats at a higher price by the time they receive their keys for their PCs or ECs. However, these group of people should be aware that there is a possibility that prices may dip by the time they sell their flats. They must accept that buying property comes with a risk and if one cannot take such risk, they must not get into the game.
For those who aspire to own PC, they should not be affected by the current measures at all. Should their HDB flat prices dip, so will be the prices of the mass market PC and mid end PC They sell low and buy low.
The current measures simply bring prices down to more affordable level and to be in line with income.
Hdb resale will still appreciate, just that it will be more in line with increase in income.
For those who aspire to own PC, they should not be affected by the current measures at all. Should their HDB flat prices dip, so will be the prices of the mass market PC and mid end PC They sell low and buy low.
The current measures simply bring prices down to more affordable level and to be in line with income.
MIB finally can see the light huh? :D
thomastansb
01-09-13, 12:14
Singaporeans said HDB is for own stay. Prices should stay low. To them, it is not an asset. So whether they can upgrade or not, it has nothing to do with their HDB. This is what singaporeans wanted, isn't it? They have been complaining about 1M HDB so they wanted prices to drop. The government is just listening to them so it is good I feel b
This is also true. Expensive now will be more expensive for their children to come. But dip now also not mean prices will stabilize for the foreseeable future generation with more wealthy PRs coming into the picture.
MTB now seems to not able to join back as I dun see private condo prices going down but I see as a fact now that resale HDB COV dropping and hence potentially a greater divide between HDB owners and condo owners
thomastansb
01-09-13, 12:16
There is no risk. Singaporeans have long wanted HDB prices to drop. We have been complaining since GE2011. So now the government listen to us. Hope resale will drop 40%.
The risk of resale hdb flats drop in price will come when those who need to sell their hdb flat within 6 months after their EC TOP.
thomastansb
01-09-13, 12:18
Are you kidding me? When we buy HDB, we see HDB as a house, not an asset. We shouldn't rent out. We shouldn't think of appreciating asset. It is a house, not an asset. The prices should stay low so we don't have much profit.
Very Very true, I see a disenchanted social class of true blue singaporeans in the making .. neither here nor there .. being priced out by higher ppty prices by CMs and inflations while their HDB resale price may not catch up with pte properties.. mean while the continuous influx of PRs and rich new Citizens may drive pte ppty beyond their reach ..
The social class divides further widens and deepens ...as populations creeps up with stagnated growth of true blue singaporeans populace among a growing imflux of foreigner and PRs coming to our shore to enjoy the peace, stability, infrastructures for next 10-15 years without converting to S'pore citizens. :banghead:
thomastansb
01-09-13, 12:27
We should have low growth. HDB is not meant for speculation. It is a house, not an asset. Luckily the government listen to singaporeans finally. Prices should stay low. If I buy BTO at 250k, I hope to sell around 255k can liao. If I get to sell at 160k, even better. HDB prices should stay low, period. It is subsidized housing.
U will loose the middle class PR. So to me the ones who loose are hdb owners. Less tenant n less resale chance. Bye bye to upgrade. Good that's what the pple ask for right? Low growth.
Low growth means less social mobility. Don't mean PC will be cheap .
Wait 3 years and buy a 500k HDB or buy a small 1 million condo... I don't know.. To me, PR are not so stupid
If we care to think deeper, the people who are affected by the new measures are those who have already committed to their PCs or ECs and are hoping to sell their HDB flats at a higher price by the time they receive their keys for their PCs or ECs. However, these group of people should be aware that there is a possibility that prices may dip by the time they sell their flats. They must accept that buying property comes with a risk and if one cannot take such risk, they must not get into the game.
For those who aspire to own PC, they should not be affected by the current measures at all. Should their HDB flat prices dip, so will be the prices of the mass market PC and mid end PC They sell low and buy low.
The current measures simply bring prices down to more affordable level and to be in line with income.reasale hdb price dip, doesn't mean pte condo price will dip....if people believe tat condo is a good investment....if there is no stress to sell your precious condo, because the replacement cost is high, why should one do it??! Welcome all to the property market....it is not the type of game as the stock market...to see true or not....we gives ourselves 1 more year to see the effect!
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 12:59
reasale hdb price dip, doesn't mean pte condo price will dip....if people believe tat condo is a good investment....if there is no stress to sell your precious condo, because the replacement cost is high, why should one do it??! Welcome all to the property market....it is not the type of game as the stock market...to see true or not....we gives ourselves 1 more year to see the effect!
As quoted in another similar thread and discussed under Financing.
If HDB resale is affected, it will affect the mass market condo and hence the mid end condo. The market always behave this way because most people decision to upgrade depend on the resale value of their existing properties.
Government is spot on to control the prices of HDB flats which has an effect on overall private property market. Without the support of HDB upgraders, the mass market condo cannot move.
Very Very true, I see a disenchanted social class of true blue singaporeans in the making .. neither here nor there .. being priced out by higher ppty prices by CMs and inflations while their HDB resale price may not catch up with pte properties.. mean while the continuous influx of PRs and rich new Citizens may drive pte ppty beyond their reach ..
The social class divides further widens and deepens ...as populations creeps up with stagnated growth of true blue singaporeans populace among a growing imflux of foreigner and PRs coming to our shore to enjoy the peace, stability, infrastructures for next 10-15 years without converting to S'pore citizens. :banghead:
We are also asking the government to restrict foreigners buying private housing.
Only those who invested a minimum of ______ into our economy to create jobs for our people , are allowed to purchase one home for their own stay! How about this? :im-so-happy:
And Inland revenue need to buck up to check 'Trading transaction' instead of Capital transaction for those holding multiple properties.
However, these group of people should be aware that there is a possibility that prices may dip by the time they sell their flats. They must accept that buying property comes with a risk and if one cannot take such risk, they must not get into the game.
Risk taking is part and parcel of the game.
Except in this case gov changes the rule of free market at will, resulting in this risk.
In this sense this group has grounds to be unhappy : "all my risks are created not because of market but by you, the gov, singlehandedly"
I always say HDB is a special class of asset, with lots of policy risks. Even in this forum many well seasoned investors do not share this view. Imagine the general public. Everyone assumes he can ride on the tide and take the 1st bonus towards the condo upgrade.
The incumbent is no longer like the past. Some calculated price is being paid to suit the new generation of voters.
Let the private property price rise to the roof. Hdb price keep it low.
Let the private property price rise to the roof. Hdb price keep it low.
Only a small handful of developers and investors could benefit from rising prices. Most of the commoners who earn their living outside properties are not affected by rising prices. But rising prices transformed more and more of commoners into a lifetime of miserable debt slaves. We couldn't have everybody into the property game. Who is going to produce the bread, fly the plane?
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 15:50
Risk taking is part and parcel of the game.
Except in this case gov changes the rule of free market at will, resulting in this risk.
In this sense this group has grounds to be unhappy : "all my risks are created not because of market but by you, the gov, singlehandedly"
I always say HDB is a special class of asset, with lots of policy risks. Even in this forum many well seasoned investors do not share this view. Imagine the general public. Everyone assumes he can ride on the tide and take the 1st bonus towards the condo upgrade.
The incumbent is no longer like the past. Some calculated price is being paid to suit the new generation of voters.
Changes in government's policy Is part of market risk. Real estate affects the economy and hence everywhere in the world, governments' interventions are necessary from time to time to ensure sustainability.
Condo demand will go up, especially near Bidadari because there very few plots for condos. Supply will be very slow around there.
Especially FH ones.
Condo demand will go up, especially near Bidadari because there very few plots for condos. Supply will be very slow around there.
reasale hdb price dip, doesn't mean pte condo price will dip....if people believe tat condo is a good investment....if there is no stress to sell your precious condo, because the replacement cost is high, why should one do it??! Welcome all to the property market....it is not the type of game as the stock market...to see true or not....we gives ourselves 1 more year to see the effect!
HDB prices and condo prices are tied together, make no qualms about it. Question is which segment of condos is it more closely tied to. My personal feel is the OCR segment is gonna get whacked.
There re too many mom and pop investors in the OCR segment, and the OCR segment also has a larger proportion of buyers from the HDB upgrader segment. So when all these OCR condos start to TOP, and when they find that rental is not as good as it seems, or for the flippers who re trying to sell, they ll find that the pool of buyers has shrunk by alot.
invigorated
01-09-13, 17:56
HDB prices and condo prices are tied together, make no qualms about it. Question is which segment of condos is it more closely tied to. My personal feel is the OCR segment is gonna get whacked.
There re too many mom and pop investors in the OCR segment, and the OCR segment also has a larger proportion of buyers from the HDB upgrader segment. So when all these OCR condos start to TOP, and when they find that rental is not as good as it seems, or for the flippers who re trying to sell, they ll find that the pool of buyers has shrunk by alot.
agree that prices are linked somewhat. many have quoted that prices will be de-linked, but how would that happen if many are hdb upgraders? ocr may be affected as their target audience are those staying nearby.. personally know of frens around punggol who have upgraded to the condos n EC nearby.
My opinion government politically make correct decision by making this cooling measure. This measure will benefit majority of Singaporean Citizen. For majority HDB is not asset. Lower Price it mean more affordable for their next generation.
This measure will not benefit EC/PC upgrader group. But they are not majority.
This measure give benefit for people that having EC/PC. The reason is the gap between HDB price and EC/PC price will be wider.
Changes in government's policy Is part of market risk.
But our government is not like Malaysia government. We are supposed to have stable, transparent, consistent, predictable policies, not short term, constant changing, public-opinion-dependent, change by term policies. This is supposed to be the foundation of SG Inc. system.
Many upgraders calbrate their purchasing decisions on the long term HDB policies, which have not changed for a long time (10ys ?). If you now change course on HDB, you certainly are guilty of misselling your policies in the past. You induced ppl making big financial decisions based on a reasonable expectations on your publicly stated policies. You do not hide behind the easy excuse of "all these are part of the risks".
I'm not saying gov owes every one a upgrade bonus. I'm saying gov has a duty to ensure you policies are consistent. Ppl expect your policies to be consistent.
Does this policy change affect majority of HDB dwellers ? Maybe not, but you also must know, only the minority of HDB dwellers manage to move up in the 1st place. For this group, on what grounds do you say "they deserve it "?
Let the private property price rise to the roof. Hdb price keep it low.
i also say as long as hdb rental keeps high:D :D :D
But our government is not like Malaysia government. We are supposed to have stable, transparent, consistent, predictable policies, not short term, constant changing, public-opinion-dependent, change by term policies. This is supposed to be the foundation of SG Inc. system.
Many upgraders calbrate their purchasing decisions on the long term HDB policies, which have not changed for a long time (10ys ?). If you now change course on HDB, you certainly are guilty of misselling your policies in the past. You induced ppl making big financial decisions based on a reasonable expectations on your publicly stated policies. You do not hide behind the easy excuse of "all these are part of the risks".
I'm not saying gov owes every one a upgrade bonus. I'm saying gov has a duty to ensure you policies are consistent. Ppl expect your policies to be consistent.
Does this policy change affect majority of HDB dwellers ? Maybe not, but you also must know, only the minority of HDB dwellers manage to move up in the 1st place. For this group, on what grounds do you say "they deserve it "?
abit difficult to buy HDB based on the premise that certain policies will remain a certain way lah. I really feel if people buy based on that than they re at fault lah.
Buy HDB is because your family needs it, you need to settle down, have a roof over your head. So you buy what you can afford, according to your finances. Anything else is a bonus. Cannot buy and assume that your HDB price will naturally go up because of government strategy. Like that is abit asking for the sky leh. I think people understand that.
Besides dont forget first time buyers still get pretty generous subsidies. AND the policies are coming in place after HDB prices have appreciated tremendousy, so most people are in a winning position after all. If they do this at a downtrend or if prices haven t moved in the last ten years than I say something wrong lah
In any case according to the latest our conversation with the masses majority people prefer lower HDB and condo prices leh. :D Better for the next generation lah.
Actually if you think about it what our government has been doing has been nothing new. Our government has always been quite interventionist over the last few decades. That is the reason why we managed to avoid alot of calamities
but the problem is, they r unable to buy HDB within the 1st 3 yrs.
so now the option for PRs is either:
1. rent HDB for 3 yrs and den buy resale hdb
2. buy resale condo and den buy resale hdb after 4 yrs.
which one is better?
option 3 ..balek kampong...translated means go back village:D :D :D
In any case according to the latest our conversation with the masses majority people prefer lower HDB and condo prices leh. :D Better for the next generation
HDB being public housing and a home (needs), kept low price I can understand. Why should private condo kept low price then by govt policies? We should not even intervene the private free market unless we want to tell the next generation don't need to work hard to achieve what you want cause there is always govt policies there to help you own what you want (not needs). We must be careful not to send the wrong message.
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 20:04
But our government is not like Malaysia government. We are supposed to have stable, transparent, consistent, predictable policies, not short term, constant changing, public-opinion-dependent, change by term policies. This is supposed to be the foundation of SG Inc. system.
Many upgraders calbrate their purchasing decisions on the long term HDB policies, which have not changed for a long time (10ys ?). If you now change course on HDB, you certainly are guilty of misselling your policies in the past. You induced ppl making big financial decisions based on a reasonable expectations on your publicly stated policies. You do not hide behind the easy excuse of "all these are part of the risks".
I'm not saying gov owes every one a upgrade bonus. I'm saying gov has a duty to ensure you policies are consistent. Ppl expect your policies to be consistent.
Does this policy change affect majority of HDB dwellers ? Maybe not, but you also must know, only the minority of HDB dwellers manage to move up in the 1st place. For this group, on what grounds do you say "they deserve it "?
Depend on what you define as consistent policy. Can we say allowing Singaporean to rent out the whole flat is "consistent" with the previous policy. No, it was a radical move to solve the lack of rental units years ago when the influx of foreigners were taken in due to a lack of planning on the part of the government for not building enough flats. It leads to the problem we are now faced.
Now, the government allows PR to buy HDB flat only after 3 years of obtaining PR status is considered consistent with the government policy of differentiating between citizen and PR. It also serves to slow down the resale market and stabilize prices which is consistent with the government objectives. View in this way, it is consistent with government policy.
However, if people buy EC or PC with the hope that when the time comes to sell their HDB flats, policy should not change is simply not realistic and taking for granted that the government must protect their investments. It is a known fact that resale prices are subject to market forces which include changes in government policy. People in this group must have plan B before investing in their EC or PC. If they do not have plan B they cannot now put the blame on government.
As a matter of fact, the government is aware that any drastic drop in property prices would affect many people and have over the last three, advising people to be caution when buying their properties. However, people are not listening and continue to buy (herd mentality) despite the numerous cooling measures to make it difficult for them to buy.
What the government is doing now is to manage a soft landing and that has been the consistent message the government is sending to the public.
But our government is not like Malaysia government. We are supposed to have stable, transparent, consistent, predictable policies, not short term, constant changing, public-opinion-dependent, change by term policies. This is supposed to be the foundation of SG Inc. system.
Many upgraders calbrate their purchasing decisions on the long term HDB policies, which have not changed for a long time (10ys ?). If you now change course on HDB, you certainly are guilty of misselling your policies in the past. You induced ppl making big financial decisions based on a reasonable expectations on your publicly stated policies. You do not hide behind the easy excuse of "all these are part of the risks".
I'm not saying gov owes every one a upgrade bonus. I'm saying gov has a duty to ensure you policies are consistent. Ppl expect your policies to be consistent.
Does this policy change affect majority of HDB dwellers ? Maybe not, but you also must know, only the minority of HDB dwellers manage to move up in the 1st place. For this group, on what grounds do you say "they deserve it "?
HDB upgraders who made use of the rising valuation to bridge the gap to a EC/PC are people who saw the 'loop hole' Now the hole is closed.You simply couldn't sit and do nothing expecting luxury to fall from the sky. This group of people are easily having mortgage loans >$500k ,every month paying $5k until old and gone in order to satisfy their vanity of living in a condo. If they did not take so much debts, they had depleted their cash into the condo roof! Having attack the loop hole, do they have the grounds to demand guarantee of consistency of policy? :im-so-happy:
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 20:30
I am just as concern with people buying PCs hoping that they could rent out their entire HDB flats to help with their mortgages. Hopefully, this current change in government policy will serve as a reminder that the policy allowing the renting of the entire flat could be reversed in the future when the supply catches up with demand. The fact that we needs HDB's approval to rent out the whole flat suggests that this policy is temporary and could be reversed anytime soon.
Depend on what you define as consistent policy. Can we say allowing Singaporean to rent out the whole flat is "consistent" with the previous policy. No, it was a radical move to solve the lack of rental units years ago when the influx of foreigners were taken in due to a lack of planning on the part of the government for not building enough flats. It leads to the problem we are now faced.
Now, the government allows PR to buy HDB flat only after 3 years of obtaining PR status is considered consistent with the government policy of differentiating between citizen and PR. It also serves to slow down the resale market and stabilize prices which is consistent with the government objectives. View in this way, it is consistent with government policy.
However, if people buy EC or PC with the hope that when the time comes to sell their HDB flats, policy should not change is simply not realistic and taking for granted that the government must protect their investments. It is a known fact that resale prices are subject to market forces which include changes in government policy. People in this group must have plan B before investing in their EC or PC. If they do not have plan B they cannot now put the blame on government.
As a matter of fact, the government is aware that any drastic drop in property prices would affect many people and have over the last three, advising people to be caution when buying their properties. However, people are not listening and continue to buy (herd mentality) despite the numerous cooling measures to make it difficult for them to buy.
What the government is doing now is to manage a soft landing and that has been the consistent message the government is sending to the public.
I'm glad you bring about the topic of HDB rental, (btw I fully appreciate the gentlemen style debate demonstrated here. Let's keep it tha way :) )
The moment HDB relaxed full HDB rental, circa 10ys ago, it sent a strong signal that HDB is an asset, not home. I dun think 10yr ago there was this "shortage" of housing. So allowing HDB to rent out easily was never meant to solve housing shortage problem.
Of th years, HDB as asset is always maintained publicly as the policy. It never changed.
Until today. It is changing course, albeit slowly, but surely, as you have already observed ( and celebrated)
Come the day when HDB tightens rental, you will really see HDB resale price crashing. And you welcome that , do you ?
Wait 3 years and buy a 500k HDB or buy a small 1 million condo... I don't know.. To me, PR are not so stupid
PRs especially those in SG are not stupid and knows how to optimize and extremely competitive one ... And within their community they are a lot more closely knited together to think of a way to side step the measures then us Singaporeans ... Sigh ... Sometimes I also feel we true blue Singaporeans should do and think more and complain less ...
I'm glad you bring about the topic of HDB rental, (btw I fully appreciate the gentlemen style debate demonstrated here. Let's keep it tha way :) )
The moment HDB relaxed full HDB rental, circa 10ys ago, it sent a strong signal that HDB is an asset, not home. I dun think 10yr ago there was this "shortage" of housing. So allowing HDB to rent out easily was never meant to solve housing shortage problem.
Of th years, HDB as asset is always maintained publicly as the policy. It never changed.
Until today. It is changing course, albeit slowly, but surely, as you have already observed ( and celebrated)
Come the day when HDB tightens rental, you will really see HDB resale price crashing. And you welcome that , do you ?
I also agree last time HDB was regarded as am asset and not just a place to stay and hence price appreciation in tandem with the rising economy. After all, the vast majority of the true blue Singaporean populace and higher end HDB it is hoped will appreciate and be able to be sold off to fund retirement nest when once is elderly ... Think that is what the government mentioned a few years back though
Seems a sea change of measures too fast if you ask me though
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 21:18
I'm glad you bring about the topic of HDB rental, (btw I fully appreciate the gentlemen style debate demonstrated here. Let's keep it tha way :) )
The moment HDB relaxed full HDB rental, circa 10ys ago, it sent a strong signal that HDB is an asset, not home. I dun think 10yr ago there was this "shortage" of housing. So allowing HDB to rent out easily was never meant to solve housing shortage problem.
Of th years, HDB as asset is always maintained publicly as the policy. It never changed.
Until today. It is changing course, albeit slowly, but surely, as you have already observed ( and celebrated)
Come the day when HDB tightens rental, you will really see HDB resale price crashing. And you welcome that , do you ?
I am not aware that HDB liberalised its rental policy some 10 years ago. The fact that we need to get approval for renting out the whole flat suggest that HDB is monitoring and controlling the demand.
Should HDB tighten rental, it must be for good reason as discussed in the Singapore Conversation. As long as the process is well managed and gradual, it should be another soft landing. It just bring the level of affordability to a lower level which benefit the average population more than the rich.
If the entire system is level down, it means by and large, you sell low and you also buy low. The average guys will not get hurt unless you are a speculator and get caught refusing to change your assessment of the market.
HDB is a public policy.. How many % of Singaporean want to see such a high public housing price? The problem is high public price did not benefit those HDB owner but instead increase the pressure for their kid from owner their own HDB. Even if now the HDB goes to 1 million, what can you do? Sell it? Then where can you stay? If HDB goes for 1 million, then the same size condo in the side area will easily go for 2 million.. You just cannot change this asset to cash... Unless you are going to migrate out of the country or like PR to return to their own country after they are done here.
In the end, high HDB price will only benefit the rich (those with multi-property) and PR. And this will create pressure in the coming election.. As the majority of the people did not benefit from the increase in HDB price but their kid will suffer from it.
The government have to think how to keep power.. So it is now either they sacrifice the benefit of multi-property owner or give up the support of the general public. So it is very clear the direction they will go.. Reduce HDB price, control the foreign population, give more benefit to Singaporean.. It may not be the best policy for Singapore but it will ensure the government will continue to be in power..
HDB is a public policy.. How many % of Singaporean want to see such a high public housing price? The problem is high public price did not benefit those HDB owner but instead increase the pressure for their kid from owner their own HDB. Even if now the HDB goes to 1 million, what can you do? Sell it? Then where can you stay? If HDB goes for 1 million, then the same size condo in the side area will easily go for 2 million.. You just cannot change this asset to cash... Unless you are going to migrate out of the country or like PR to return to their own country after they are done here.
In the end, high HDB price will only benefit the rich (those with multi-property) and PR. And this will create pressure in the coming election.. As the majority of the people did not benefit from the increase in HDB price but their kid will suffer from it.
The government have to think how to keep power.. So it is now either they sacrifice the benefit of multi-property owner or give up the support of the general public. So it is very clear the direction they will go.. Reduce HDB price, control the foreign population, give more benefit to Singaporean.. It may not be the best policy for Singapore but it will ensure the government will continue to be in power..
Not that simple... When PRs become citizens, they change the equation directly. Overall, it's good for SG, although differentially benefits different groups. Persuading them to become citizens might be a way to keep power.
HDB is a public policy.. How many % of Singaporean want to see such a high public housing price? The problem is high public price did not benefit those HDB owner but instead increase the pressure for their kid from owner their own HDB. Even if now the HDB goes to 1 million, what can you do? Sell it? Then where can you stay? If HDB goes for 1 million, then the same size condo in the side area will easily go for 2 million.. You just cannot change this asset to cash... Unless you are going to migrate out of the country or like PR to return to their own country after they are done here.
In the end, high HDB price will only benefit the rich (those with multi-property) and PR. And this will create pressure in the coming election.. As the majority of the people did not benefit from the increase in HDB price but their kid will suffer from it.
The government have to think how to keep power.. So it is now either they sacrifice the benefit of multi-property owner or give up the support of the general public. So it is very clear the direction they will go.. Reduce HDB price, control the foreign population, give more benefit to Singaporean.. It may not be the best policy for Singapore but it will ensure the government will continue to be in power..
Who tell them to buy expensive resale hdb? Just buy bto can already. Bto is priced very low. If u want fast, mature estate no choice lah got to pay more lah.
High resale price is good for old age to down grade. High price benefit singaporean. At least it is an asset that will appreciate. Can pass to your children when u r gone.
Amber Woods
01-09-13, 22:42
HDB is a public policy.. How many % of Singaporean want to see such a high public housing price? The problem is high public price did not benefit those HDB owner but instead increase the pressure for their kid from owner their own HDB. Even if now the HDB goes to 1 million, what can you do? Sell it? Then where can you stay? If HDB goes for 1 million, then the same size condo in the side area will easily go for 2 million.. You just cannot change this asset to cash... Unless you are going to migrate out of the country or like PR to return to their own country after they are done here.
In the end, high HDB price will only benefit the rich (those with multi-property) and PR. And this will create pressure in the coming election.. As the majority of the people did not benefit from the increase in HDB price but their kid will suffer from it.
The government have to think how to keep power.. So it is now either they sacrifice the benefit of multi-property owner or give up the support of the general public. So it is very clear the direction they will go.. Reduce HDB price, control the foreign population, give more benefit to Singaporean.. It may not be the best policy for Singapore but it will ensure the government will continue to be in power..
You are one of the very few who understand the underlying situation and explain it in layman's term. You are absolutely right in your assessment. Many people especially the rich or multi-property owners simply cannot accept the coming.
This is what will happened.
to those affected PR, hdb is super unattractive already. Not forgetting they cannot rent it out.
majority will look in the pte pty and mm will be first in their list. It is so much more worth to pay monthly mortgage than paying rent. So those who are tight will buy the most affordable pte pty, that will be the mm, also there is no worry about being banned from renting it out.
those 5xkx and 6xxk mm will vanish from the market. (Except those In redlight district).
Ask those who are 40 and above if they want their hdb prices to be high??? Did u listen to the ndr by our pm? He said one woman wanted her flat to be high but her children's prichasing of hdb to be low....
There is no right or wrong... Their is only a majority and a minority.... That's why you see 2 camps here... One thinking of hdb as an asset and the other who disagrees.... And this will go on forever....
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
HDB is a public policy.. How many % of Singaporean want to see such a high public housing price? The problem is high public price did not benefit those HDB owner but instead increase the pressure for their kid from owner their own HDB. Even if now the HDB goes to 1 million, what can you do? Sell it? Then where can you stay? If HDB goes for 1 million, then the same size condo in the side area will easily go for 2 million.. You just cannot change this asset to cash... Unless you are going to migrate out of the country or like PR to return to their own country after they are done here.
In the end, high HDB price will only benefit the rich (those with multi-property) and PR. And this will create pressure in the coming election.. As the majority of the people did not benefit from the increase in HDB price but their kid will suffer from it.
The government have to think how to keep power.. So it is now either they sacrifice the benefit of multi-property owner or give up the support of the general public. So it is very clear the direction they will go.. Reduce HDB price, control the foreign population, give more benefit to Singaporean.. It may not be the best policy for Singapore but it will ensure the government will continue to be in power..
NorthernStar
02-09-13, 07:17
some of my colleagues are even hard to get PR and they decided to get a condo instead of paying rental. Condo demands will go up.
and i think the price between HDB and Condo will just de-linked if Gov continue to tighten HDB rule. Unless SG gov also intervene the condo policy. From the way i see, it is highly possible...
Oh well, Singaporeans get what they "wished" for, which is either stagnant or falling resale HDB prices. But is it really really what they wished for? That means this asset is non-appreciating. Don't they realise the implications for them long-term?
How to sell it to upgrade?
How to sell it to retire?
You are stuck with the HDB flat to live in for the rest of your life or else rent it out for the rest of your life (note that this may also be curtailed in due course due to tightening of subletting regulations).
Condo prices shd enjoy a small increase in selling price n rental in e next 1-2 years due to this policy alone.
For the many hdb dwellers who complain about high price resale hdb, may now worry, how much resale price will drop....many may regret over complain....as hdb is their only asset....and if depreciate by 10%, they will be v disappointed , and outskirt hdb will depreciate faster than city town hdb....because many people are willing to pay for a good location....so eventually...most hdb dwellers still suffer...., just like Psle, is anyone very happy with the plan? I only know my p5 son says he will be disappointed if he not given a chance to try the psle examinations next year....but I assure him he will have a chance to try it.
For the many hdb dwellers who complain about high price resale hdb, may now worry, how much resale price will drop....many may regret over complain....as hdb is their only asset....and if depreciate by 10%, they will be v disappointed , and outskirt hdb will depreciate faster than city town hdb....because many people are willing to pay for a good location....so eventually...most hdb dwellers still suffer...., just like Psle, is anyone very happy with the plan? I only know my p5 son says he will be disappointed if he not given a chance to try the psle examinations next year....but I assure him he will have a chance to try it.
I think PSLE now is even more stressful for everyone because of e unknown.
Sis, not many understand the implications.
80/20 rule.
The rule applied since mankind was in existence.
Oh well, Singaporeans get what they "wished" for, which is either stagnant or falling resale HDB prices. But is it really really what they wished for? That means this asset is non-appreciating. Don't they realise the implications for them long-term?
How to sell it to upgrade?
How to sell it to retire?
You are stuck with the HDB flat to live in for the rest of your life or else rent it out for the rest of your life (note that this may also be curtailed in due course due to tightening of subletting regulations).
Garment is in a state of confused.Just have to keep giving out to middle income and below until the next election.
Sis, not many understand the implications.
80/20 rule.
The rule applied since mankind was in existence.
Frankly, I don't think the 3 year bar to buy HDB for new PR is an issue, before they get PR they don't get CPF, so they still need to save for at least 3 years before they can afford to buy the resale HDB anyway. Of course there will be some who can afford to buy straight away once they get SPR. They are a minority
some of my colleagues are even hard to get PR and they decided to get a condo instead of paying rental. Condo demands will go up.
and i think the price between HDB and Condo will just de-linked if Gov continue to tighten HDB rule. Unless SG gov also intervene the condo policy. From the way i see, it is highly possible...
Same observations here. This policy has further made clear to PR that hdb policy DO CHANGE and to prevent further sabotage, they will avoid hdb and go pte.
Garment is in a state of confused.Just have to keep giving out to middle income and below until the next election.
Bro, agreeable.... They need to do what is 'right'.
Frankly, I don't think the 3 year bar to buy HDB for new PR is an issue, before they get PR they don't get CPF, so they still need to save for at least 3 years before they can afford to buy the resale HDB anyway. Of course there will be some who can afford to buy straight away once they get SPR. They are a minority
Gov now only grant quality PR. These PR usually has some experience, hence savings. And usually earn above $5k. Most will siam HDB once and for all.
No money, then don't upgrade. Like selling away LV to buy Chanel bag.
Frankly, I don't think the 3 year bar to buy HDB for new PR is an issue, before they get PR they don't get CPF, so they still need to save for at least 3 years before they can afford to buy the resale HDB anyway. Of course there will be some who can afford to buy straight away once they get SPR. They are a minority
& for those PRs who can buy straight away, they will realise tat it is a wiser choice to go pte instead due to more potential for growth & lesser restrictions.
gg fwd, HDB wun hv big potential for capital appreciation like in the past liao, so ppl, including sporeans shd oso think twice b4 investing.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 10:20
Last time still can buy resale HDB to invest. Nowadays, can skip HDB.
Now those sengkang 4 bedroom also 500k. Rent out 2k+, only about 5% yield. And no rental for the first 5 years plus you need to sell all your properties. Not worth it as an investment.
& for those PRs who can buy straight away, they will realise tat it is a wiser choice to go pte instead due to more potential for growth & lesser restrictions.
gg fwd, HDB wun hv big potential for capital appreciation like in the past liao, so ppl, including sporeans shd oso think twice b4 investing.
Last time still can buy resale HDB to invest. Nowadays, can skip HDB.
Now those sengkang 4 bedroom also 500k. Rent out 2k+, only about 5% yield. And no rental for the first 5 years plus you need to sell all your properties. Not worth it as an investment.
so HDB will become an affordable housing with limited potential from invsmt pov.
do u tink tis new HDB fate will spur OCR market to do even better?
Just kill the HDB market I say. Give the people wat they want. If most of them are so dumb to believe that lowering HDB prices and removing PR from the equation will benefit them in long run. then let it be.
Coz its their grave. If living in a HDB getto without chance to upgrade as PC sores. Then be it. you get wat u ask for. People become too proud deserve a fall to realized it.
so HDB will become an affordable housing with limited potential from invsmt pov.
do u tink tis new HDB fate will spur OCR market to do even better?
Well people are saying HDB is A HOME ! NOT INVESTMENT! so be it..
Well people are saying HDB is A HOME ! NOT INVESTMENT! so be it..
Im very sure tis is juz the beginning of another mess.
in the past, poor & middle class ppl kpkb hdb is too exp even though they get to buy BTO.
now HDB go down hill, BTO owners wun earn as much profit in the future; resale flat owners might earn a loss unless one sell perhaps > 10 yrs later.
but when ppl noe tat hdb is no longer profitable, Im not sure how much can a resale flat appreciate 10 yrs later.
next, these bunch of poor & middle class is gonna kpkb again tat they hv bought a white elephant. :banghead:
so wat's the govt gg to do next? :beats-me-man:
Amber Woods
02-09-13, 11:02
The problem we are facing in the property market is very much the wrong doing of the government over the last 10 years. Firstly, the government fails to build enough flats to meet demand. Secondly, the government allows prices to rise faster than income.
What the government is trying to do is to try to right the wrongs by increasing supply. The government also try to increase wages but there is a limit to wage increase without any significant increase in productivity. As such, government is subsiding some $440m (as reported) to flat buyers due to the rising price and slower growth in income.
Ultimately, someone got to pay for the $440m. Given the social impacts of high property prices, it does make sense for the government to bring down prices to be more in line with income. While the government will not directly bring down prices in the private market, it could influence the market by managing the prices of HDB flats be it new BTO or resale.
It is really not about trying to slow down the economy but more so to balance the economics mix. In doing so with the current measures, if the market shifts the way the government planned, it will affect the more well off who could own multiple property. Then again for this small group of people, they could stomach the pains. The minority may not be happy but life goes on for the majority and keeping them happy.
Lol! Are you serious? Comparing Singapore with Geneva?
Read this article:
http://business.asiaone.com/news/career/do-sporean-workers-deserve-their-wages
This paragraph kind of sums it up:
"Singapore is not a developed country in the sense of Japan or Germany or Switzerland where the average worker is well-trained and of high quality...
"The German engineer is behind scores of world-class SMEs that populate various small towns across Germany. Ditto for Japan and Switzerland... The SME boss in Woodlands and Bukit Batok is not competing with SMEs in the US and Japan but with those in China and Vietnam.
"Singapore's high GDP is not because of high-quality local workers and companies but because of the more than 7,000 MNCs that use this as a hub to produce world- class products and services. This crucial difference needs to be kept in mind."
Good article, I was trying to prove in my another thread that this new policy of not allowing PRs to buy resale HDB in three years is a stupid policy, not because i'm worried about a HDB resale price correction, rather because I'm worried that Singapore is turning more xenophobic, and will slowly lose its competitiveness as more PRs or PRs-to-be will just leave Singapore for good.
Good article, I was trying to prove in my another thread that this new policy of not allowing PRs to buy resale HDB in three years is a stupid policy, not because i'm worried about a HDB resale price correction, rather because I'm worried that Singapore is turning more xenophobic, and will slowly lose its competitiveness as more PRs or PRs-to-be will just leave Singapore for good.
You got the wrong idea. HDB is for citizens. Extending to PRs is already very generous. I don't think there is any other country in the world that allows PRs to buy houses meant for citizens. Quite a lot of land that HDB is sitting on were acquired at dirt cheap rate from previous owners, as part of national development to house citizens, not PRs.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 11:14
Different model, cannot compare.
In Malaysia, most people stay landed. Singaporeans can buy their landed also. So are Europe, Japan etc.
In Singapore, we control the supply, let Singaporeans buy cheap so they can earn a profit after 5 years.
You got the wrong idea. HDB is for citizens. Extending to PRs is already very generous. I don't think there is any other country in the world that allows PRs to buy houses meant for citizens.
....just like Psle, is anyone very happy with the plan? I only know my p5 son says he will be disappointed if he not given a chance to try the psle examinations next year....but I assure him he will have a chance to try it.
My own opinion...is that he will stand a better chance of getting into a "good" school taking the current psle exams compared to the "new" psle. It is more transparent. There will be less chance of kids getting in on nebulous criteria of leadership, etc etc. which allows principals to let in rich kids of influential parents or those with connections more easily. "New" PSLE will have difficulties as the banding will be broader since there are fewer categories. It is like having 4 O level subjects only. If you mess up on one subject, doing very very well in other subjects may not pull you up enough. If you think L1R5 in O levels is bad, this new PSLE format is not even allowing you to have one bad subject amongst 4.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 11:16
I agree with you on not enough flats previously. But income not matching prices is inaccurate. If you take BTO prices vs median income, it is rather proportionate over the last 20 years.
The problem we are facing in the property market is very much the wrong doing of the government over the last 10 years. Firstly, the government fails to build enough flats to meet demand. Secondly, the government allows prices to rise faster than income.
What the government is trying to do is to try to right the wrongs by increasing supply. The government also try to increase wages but there is a limit to wage increase without any significant increase in productivity. As such, government is subsiding some $440m (as reported) to flat buyers due to the rising price and slower growth in income.
Ultimately, someone got to pay for the $440m. Given the social impacts of high property prices, it does make sense for the government to bring down prices to be more in line with income. While the government will not directly bring down prices in the private market, it could influence the market by managing the prices of HDB flats be it new BTO or resale.
It is really not about trying to slow down the economy but more so to balance the economics mix. In doing so with the current measures, if the market shifts the way the government planned, it will affect the more well off who could own multiple property. Then again for this small group of people, they could stomach the pains. The minority may not be happy but life goes on for the majority and keeping them happy.
I agree with you on not enough flats previously. But income not matching prices is inaccurate. If you take BTO prices vs median income, it is rather proportionate over the last 20 years.
Next pple will be screaming its the government wrong doing to allow PC price to move up depriving the Singapore a chance to upgrade. Thus bursting singaporean dream.
in short. pls be realistic. maybe should have leave this island alone so we all can be fish farmers and go work in Malaysia as illegal labour.
Amber Woods
02-09-13, 11:41
I agree with you on not enough flats previously. But income not matching prices is inaccurate. If you take BTO prices vs median income, it is rather proportionate over the last 20 years.
DPM Therman had confirmed that prices had risen much faster than income. Mr Khaw had mentioned that he wanted to achieve Housing Affordability Index of 4 for HDB flats. Government now subsides some $440m for new BTO flats. As for resale flats, there are many Singaporeans who could not quality for BTO flat are finding it difficult to buy resale flat at current market prices.
Can someone tell me which country allow PR to buy their govt subsidise housing for their ppl?
Poor singles Singaporean can only afford resale HDB, maybe this part govt should improve tho they dun encourage ppl to stay alone.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 13:17
No country. Not even Singapore.
Can someone tell me which country allow PR to buy their govt subsidise housing for their ppl?
Poor singles Singaporean can only afford resale HDB, maybe this part govt should improve tho they dun encourage ppl to stay alone.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 13:20
Exactly. When things doesn't affect them, they don't care. My colleague was just telling me kindergarden school fees going up by 3%. I was like telling him so? The teachers there, their salary no need go up? They don't need to pay more for inflation?
Next pple will be screaming its the government wrong doing to allow PC price to move up depriving the Singapore a chance to upgrade. Thus bursting singaporean dream.
in short. pls be realistic. maybe should have leave this island alone so we all can be fish farmers and go work in Malaysia as illegal labour.
No country. Not even Singapore.
How about resale?
NorthernStar
02-09-13, 13:27
How about resale?
Singaporean get subsidised through HDB grants.. PR not.
NorthernStar
02-09-13, 13:28
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf/w/BuyResaleFlatCPFGrant
some of my colleagues are even hard to get PR and they decided to get a condo instead of paying rental. Condo demands will go up.
and i think the price between HDB and Condo will just de-linked if Gov continue to tighten HDB rule. Unless SG gov also intervene the condo policy. From the way i see, it is highly possible...
That is probably before the introduction of ABSD. Now ABSD for non-PR foreigners is 15%. I dont think anyone in their sane mind will pay 15% higher and buy an already overpriced condo, just to save HDB rent.
Have you seen the latest rental quote for the just completed NV Residences? It is $2.8k for 2 bedder. Now just imagine with more and more condos topping in the next 2 years, where will rentals go? Now think about HDB rentals. I see HDB rentals falling to $1.5k for 3 room flat in the next 2 years. Seriously, for foreigners, these are great times to rent , given the uncertainty.
If you are earning $8k and rent is $2k, it is just 25% of your salary, not a big deal man. You can still save $4k a money and invest in your home country.Those people with lower salary share rooms. So this logic of rent paid is money wasted, applies only to Singaporeans, not to foreigners who are not sure how long they will stay here.
HDB being an asset is a form of sharing the country's growth with ordinary citizens. This is fundamental. You may have a poor career, earn 1k only for yr whole life, but the fact that you have a HDB enables you to have an asset worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do all of this wish-HDB-resale-down ppl realize this ? "I dun care how much it is worth since I live in it anyway". That is not the point. You are given an asset, whether you monetize it or not is your choice. SG does not have a socialist government. HDB is probably one of th biggest benefit that you can get. And gov is quite successful so far in making many ordinary ppl having assets worth more than half a million. Mind you, for this amount, many low income earners will take a lifetime to make. Do ppl realize how important this HDB policy is ?
HDB being an asset is a form of sharing the country's growth with ordinary citizens. This is fundamental. You may have a poor career, earn 1k only for yr whole life, but the fact that you have a HDB enables you to have an asset worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do all of this wish-HDB-resale-down ppl realize this ? "I dun care how much it is worth since I live in it anyway". That is not the point. You are given an asset, whether you monetize it or not is your choice. SG does not have a socialist government. HDB is probably one of th biggest benefit that you can get. And gov is quite successful so far in making many ordinary ppl having assets worth more than half a million. Mind you, for this amount, many low income earners will take a lifetime to make. Do ppl realize how important this HDB policy is ?
Hi amk, yes u r right. But alot of goondu people can't think, their mind seem to be blocked.
HDB being an asset is a form of sharing the country's growth with ordinary citizens. This is fundamental. You may have a poor career, earn 1k only for yr whole life, but the fact that you have a HDB enables you to have an asset worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do all of this wish-HDB-resale-down ppl realize this ? "I dun care how much it is worth since I live in it anyway". That is not the point. You are given an asset, whether you monetize it or not is your choice. SG does not have a socialist government. HDB is probably one of th biggest benefit that you can get. And gov is quite successful so far in making many ordinary ppl having assets worth more than half a million. Mind you, for this amount, many low income earners will take a lifetime to make. Do ppl realize how important this HDB policy is ?
agree first hand with this. This is also how i personally was able to sell off my HDB resale at a princely sum before the TDSR and the most recent measure kicked in ..... staying in a rental now and counting my blessings of how good timing i made the call to sell off during early part of 2013.
For this very reason, I will prob vote for the incumbent the rest of my life. I never realised how good this is until i realised the proceeds and see the figure in my joint bank account ...never in my lifetime have i seen that amt of money in my account .. brought real tears to my life man
Its actually 60:20:20.
The 20% people who are the bottom most strata of the society are those that have missed the boat. For various reasons, they couldn't get a HDB also. They are all in the TREmeritus site, crying father crying mother that the HDB price, condo price everything also should fall, so that they can buy. These people are the extreme xenophobic and want PRs and Foreigners out of here.
Then the other extreme 20% are this forum users, who have multiple properties and they really want PRs and Foreigners to be here so that property goes up.
The remaining 60% are just the usual HDB owners or those that owned HDB and now upgraded to condo.
To the 1st group, they dont care HDB is asset or not, because they have missed the boat.
The 2nd group look at it as an asset because their condos are all linked to it. :D
The 3rd group think its an asset until they can upgrade, if they cannot, they get very angry about it and start crying father crying mother just like the 1st group. :D
What about me? I got hdb and condo. Up or down I'm not planning to sell, maybe will buy another one during downturn.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 21:23
Those 20% can buy BTO.
Its actually 60:20:20.
The 20% people who are the bottom most strata of the society are those that have missed the boat. For various reasons, they couldn't get a HDB also. They are all in the TREmeritus site, crying father crying mother that the HDB price, condo price everything also should fall, so that they can buy. These people are the extreme xenophobic and want PRs and Foreigners out of here.
Then the other extreme 20% are this forum users, who have multiple properties and they really want PRs and Foreigners to be here so that property goes up.
The remaining 60% are just the usual HDB owners or those that owned HDB and now upgraded to condo.
To the 1st group, they dont care HDB is asset or not, because they have missed the boat.
The 2nd group look at it as an asset because their condos are all linked to it. :D
The 3rd group think its an asset until they can upgrade, if they cannot, they get very angry about it and start crying father crying mother just like the 1st group. :D
thomastansb
02-09-13, 21:25
Some people are really stupid to the core. They own a HDB but are complaining about high prices. Some are my colleagues. They complain that prices are too high and HDB cost 1M to buy now. But they own a HDB. Really stupid to the max.
HDB being an asset is a form of sharing the country's growth with ordinary citizens. This is fundamental. You may have a poor career, earn 1k only for yr whole life, but the fact that you have a HDB enables you to have an asset worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Do all of this wish-HDB-resale-down ppl realize this ? "I dun care how much it is worth since I live in it anyway". That is not the point. You are given an asset, whether you monetize it or not is your choice. SG does not have a socialist government. HDB is probably one of th biggest benefit that you can get. And gov is quite successful so far in making many ordinary ppl having assets worth more than half a million. Mind you, for this amount, many low income earners will take a lifetime to make. Do ppl realize how important this HDB policy is ?
Some people are really stupid to the core. They own a HDB but are complaining about high prices. Some are my colleagues. They complain that prices are too high and HDB cost 1M to buy now. But they own a HDB. Really stupid to the max.
They just talk talk only, inside their minds they are very happy that it is going up.:D
You got the wrong idea. HDB is for citizens. Extending to PRs is already very generous. I don't think there is any other country in the world that allows PRs to buy houses meant for citizens. Quite a lot of land that HDB is sitting on were acquired at dirt cheap rate from previous owners, as part of national development to house citizens, not PRs.
To add: we have very small land for our people own use, and no spare space for foreigners who are here to 'rob/steal' from us rather than contribute. :im-so-happy:
PR just need to marry a SC and can buy liao. Why worry? If cannot, buy condo mm, just have to squeeze 4 into 1room.
Hi amk, yes u r right. But alot of goondu people can't think, their mind seem to be blocked.
Hello, you guys are the goondus, yes the present generation makes....who pays? Your next and following generations....all this monetising is simply bankrupting the next generation....use your brains guys.
agree first hand with this. This is also how i personally was able to sell off my HDB resale at a princely sum before the TDSR and the most recent measure kicked in ..... staying in a rental now and counting my blessings of how good timing i made the call to sell off during early part of 2013.
For this very reason, I will prob vote for the incumbent the rest of my life. I never realised how good this is until i realised the proceeds and see the figure in my joint bank account ...never in my lifetime have i seen that amt of money in my account .. brought real tears to my life man
Another goondu...what tears to your eyes, because of all these unbridled rise of property prices, my $4m in 95% fully paid assets does not even make me into the rich club, it now takes $5m, that is because any ulu far flung 99 year pty is a million dollars....so I don't know what tears you are talking about, and if you leave the money in your account, sorry not even your account but joint account, which effectively halves your net worth, more tears will flow after you find out you can't buy squat.
Some people are really stupid to the core. They own a HDB but are complaining about high prices. Some are my colleagues. They complain that prices are too high and HDB cost 1M to buy now. But they own a HDB. Really stupid to the max.
in fairness, are your colleagues 50+ and they have children looking to buy a hdb but cannot support them financially in their purchase?
hdb was great for the upgraders or those who could sponsor their kids. for those who couldn't, it wasn't that great a deal.
thomastansb
02-09-13, 22:56
Nope, 30+. Same as me.
But I don't really care about them la. I just take them as some stupid people.
Anyway, 50+ or 30+, they should open their eyes. BTO 250k, market value 500k. Now they want buy 250k, sell 300k. Good for them.
in fairness, are your colleagues 50+ and they have children looking to buy a hdb but cannot support them financially in their purchase?
hdb was great for the upgraders or those who could sponsor their kids. for those who couldn't, it wasn't that great a deal.
To add: we have very small land for our people own use, and no spare space for foreigners who are here to 'rob/steal' from us rather than contribute. :im-so-happy:
rob n steal ? lol... can u elaborate than just shoot baseless remarks? ?
Hello, you guys are the goondus, yes the present generation makes....who pays? Your next and following generations....all this monetising is simply bankrupting the next generation....use your brains guys.
buy from government lah.. aiyoh.. why ask them to go buy from resale? like tat must well kpkb GCB expensive!
dont tell me expect HDB for $10K. thats great great grandmother time.
in fairness, are your colleagues 50+ and they have children looking to buy a hdb but cannot support them financially in their purchase?
hdb was great for the upgraders or those who could sponsor their kids. for those who couldn't, it wasn't that great a deal.
buy from government. earn 1K can buy 2 bed room liao. so what so difficult! pple willing to spend more than 1K on Ipad. or upgrade their phone every 6 mths but kpkb $200 pm to buy a HDB is expensive. lol....
I say its greedy n lazy.
Nope, 30+. Same as me.
But I don't really care about them la. I just take them as some stupid people.
Anyway, 50+ or 30+, they should open their eyes. BTO 250k, market value 500k. Now they want buy 250k, sell 300k. Good for them.
sorry they want to buy $10K and the 10K are subsidy $. Then sell 500K. thats what the people want ok.
buy from government lah.. aiyoh.. why ask them to go buy from resale? like tat must well kpkb GCB expensive!
dont tell me expect HDB for $10K. thats great great grandmother time.
Resale and new BTO rise in tandem......$10k HDB? The new singles HDB BTO is not far off and we are talking 2013...didn't know your great great grandmother like you, only just born yesterday.
invigorated
02-09-13, 23:14
Some people are really stupid to the core. They own a HDB but are complaining about high prices. Some are my colleagues. They complain that prices are too high and HDB cost 1M to buy now. But they own a HDB. Really stupid to the max.
from your posts, it seems to me that you are not a Singaporean?
if you are, maybe you would understand why the rising prices are choking the younger generation and saddling them with a much greater debt than their predecessors. and that's only for basic housing.
imagine that in the not so distant future, a base 3 room flat sells for almost half a million. yes, that would make those who own it a lot richer, at least on paper, but what about the younger ones who are just starting to work? please bear in mind that not everyone is a graduate, some only manage a salary of 1k up.
your colleagues are probably thinking at that wavelength.. the high prices are just on paper unless they encash it or sell it for another. PRs have the easy way out of selling them and buying up land in their native ground but most locals here don't have this option.
and please stop calling people stupid.
Hello, you guys are the goondus, yes the present generation makes....who pays? Your next and following generations....all this monetising is simply bankrupting the next generation....use your brains guys.
seriously, live in the present moment bro. U cant change the past, the future is not even here. The only present u have in now. all things being equal. Have a rising property price is better than property price that is forever going down.
i mean if you want your future generations to have forever cheap housing, try Afghanistan.
The truth in that the earth will not stop spinning, in life, its either you move up stream and u go down with the tide. Every generation will have their price to pay. In our generation , do your best and let your child have a better chance. You had your chance to do really well in school or in life, the Qns is did u made it?
My mentor told me this , and every day i remind myself. Either you pay the price of success now, or you will pay the price of failure one day.
I mean if you want your children to have a good life, dont look to the govt to provide for u. Work damn hard, make your millions and the world is your oyster. u dont have to move too far, malaysia have alot of cheap housing. But alot of times , things are cheap for a reason. While u are rushing out, many are rushing in.
Peace my bro, you pay your price now, one day your children will pay theirs.
from your posts, it seems to me that you are not a Singaporean?
if you are, maybe you would understand why the rising prices are choking the younger generation and saddling them with a much greater debt than their predecessors. and that's only for basic housing.
imagine that in the not so distant future, a base 3 room flat sells for almost half a million. yes, that would make those who own it a lot richer, at least on paper, but what about the younger ones who are just starting to work? please bear in mind that not everyone is a graduate, some only manage a salary of 1k up.
your colleagues are probably thinking at that wavelength.. the high prices are just on paper unless they encash it or sell it for another. PRs have the easy way out of selling them and buying up land in their native ground but most locals here don't have this option.
and please stop calling people stupid.
your thinking is based on the entitlement mentality that it is the govt duty to provide everyone a cheap housing? how many govt in the world actually
help their citizens actually own a ASSET(HDB)? in your view its a debt. Stay 5 years sell easily make $100-200k, how is that a debt? where in the world got such good deal?
your next qn is sell then stay where? so you see the entitlement mentality? u take your $200 k u can decide how u want to live your life with your family. U have a head start compared to your fellow human being in another state or continent.
U can become PR in another country, buy their property live few years make $$$ and Run also. The choice is ours really in life. The difference between PR and KAKB gen Y is, they want to sit there and wait to be spoon feed. At least alot of PR leave their country in search of better life for their themselves and their family while keyboard heros only wanna freaking type and wait for things to happen
Finally , Peace man, dont want to offend pple.
malaysia got very cheap house also, forever wont feel chocking for those whom give up the fight.
walkthetiger
02-09-13, 23:49
from your posts, it seems to me that you are not a Singaporean?
if you are, maybe you would understand why the rising prices are choking the younger generation and saddling them with a much greater debt than their predecessors. and that's only for basic housing.
imagine that in the not so distant future, a base 3 room flat sells for almost half a million. yes, that would make those who own it a lot richer, at least on paper, but what about the younger ones who are just starting to work? please bear in mind that not everyone is a graduate, some only manage a salary of 1k up.
your colleagues are probably thinking at that wavelength.. the high prices are just on paper unless they encash it or sell it for another. PRs have the easy way out of selling them and buying up land in their native ground but most locals here don't have this option.
and please stop calling people stupid.
Quite true, for instance, when I started my property investment decades ago; that time prices were very low...but now when I am buying property for my children, I feel the pinch.
seriously, live in the present moment bro. U cant change the past, the future is not even here. The only present u have in now. all things being equal. Have a rising property price is better than property price that is forever going down.
i mean if you want your future generations to have forever cheap housing, try Afghanistan.
The truth in that the earth will not stop spinning, in life, its either you move up stream and u go down with the tide. Every generation will have their price to pay. In our generation , do your best and let your child have a better chance. You had your chance to do really well in school or in life, the Qns is did u made it?
My mentor told me this , and every day i remind myself. Either you pay the price of success now, or you will pay the price of failure one day.
I mean if you want your children to have a good life, dont look to the govt to provide for u. Work damn hard, make your millions and the world is your oyster. u dont have to move too far, malaysia have alot of cheap housing. But alot of times , things are cheap for a reason. While u are rushing out, many are rushing in.
Peace my bro, you pay your price now, one day your children will pay theirs.
Bro I am trying my best to let you guys know about who is paying for what, no benefit to me by highlighting this, the richer one is the more he will gain from screwing the future generations. Future generations like mine only benefit, if you want it that way suit yourself. My kids will laugh all the way to the bank at the expense of yours as our properties are built over time and paid for by others.
Quite true, for instance, when I started my property investment decades ago; that time prices were very low...but now when I am buying property for my children, I feel the pinch.
frankly, sir you are successful today cos u had to buy a house for yourself. Those whom swim against the tide only become stronger. As you buy a property for your children, maybe our love for our children only deprive them the opportunity to become a strong person through experiencing some form of hardship in Life.
Which is more painful? The installments or the lessons they didnt get to learn for themselves?
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:03
No country. Not even Singapore.
you are so patient to even reply .....
why people still think resale HDB is SUBSIDIZED ?
Bro I am trying my best to let you guys know about who is paying for what, no benefit to me by highlighting this, the richer one is the more he will gain from screwing the future generations. Future generations like mine only benefit, if you want it that way suit yourself. My kids will laugh all the way to the bank at the expense of yours as our properties are built over time and paid for by others.
Good for your children sir, cos you paid the price for them or your forefather did. If my children didnt make it, i understand that its their fault that they didnt fight hard enough to be there. I will rem to tell them that.
Your kids wont be laughting all the way to the bank bro, cos they had it when they are born le, they will be busy spending it.
on a lighter note, you are asking for cheap housing so that your children will not screw mine, appreciate that thought bro.
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:10
Hello, you guys are the goondus, yes the present generation makes....who pays? Your next and following generations....all this monetising is simply bankrupting the next generation....use your brains guys.
lets say the next generation just buy BTO ...much much cheaper than resale right ? how to bankrupt them ?
but if we continue to sell resale to PR ... they are helping us to unload and take profit ... isn't that good ?
then next generation then stay until sian ... sell to PR ...take profit ... upgrade to condo ...
I don't understand how selling to PR will bankrupt the next generation ..
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:14
To add: we have very small land for our people own use, and no spare space for foreigners who are here to 'rob/steal' from us rather than contribute. :im-so-happy:
its our govt who allows themselves to be robbed ...
giving away FREE scholarships to foreigners...somemore go there to recruit them ...
after that ..these students just leave spore ...
Apparently that 'Olympic' table tennis 'FT" Singapore player ... went back to china leow ... after making enough money here ...
hahaha
good job Singapore
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:16
Born and grew up in Singapore. Pink IC since 12 years old.
Don't tell me future. You fortune teller? Talk about what is on the table now. Really typical complainer. So company should pay me 20k a month because in future, chicken rice will cost $150 a plate?
from your posts, it seems to me that you are not a Singaporean?
if you are, maybe you would understand why the rising prices are choking the younger generation and saddling them with a much greater debt than their predecessors. and that's only for basic housing.
imagine that in the not so distant future, a base 3 room flat sells for almost half a million. yes, that would make those who own it a lot richer, at least on paper, but what about the younger ones who are just starting to work? please bear in mind that not everyone is a graduate, some only manage a salary of 1k up.
your colleagues are probably thinking at that wavelength.. the high prices are just on paper unless they encash it or sell it for another. PRs have the easy way out of selling them and buying up land in their native ground but most locals here don't have this option.
and please stop calling people stupid.
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:17
buy from government lah.. aiyoh.. why ask them to go buy from resale? like tat must well kpkb GCB expensive!
dont tell me expect HDB for $10K. thats great great grandmother time.
ya lor ...
his logic damn weird leh ...
like that I can also say the private property sector now is bankrupting the next generation and the generations after ....
he some more said he has $4mio and cannot make it into the rich club ...wow .... made from real estate ?
hand down to the next generation lor ... can buy 4 resale HDB leow
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:17
True. When my dad bought his HDB at 40k, Singapore was a 3rd world country without MRT. Even water also got problem. Who cares about property price when you don't even have food or water tomorrow.
Quite true, for instance, when I started my property investment decades ago; that time prices were very low...but now when I am buying property for my children, I feel the pinch.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:19
Just try to educate them lor. But most will still want to stay in their own world.
you are so patient to even reply .....
why people still think resale HDB is SUBSIDIZED ?
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:20
Resale and new BTO rise in tandem......$10k HDB? The new singles HDB BTO is not far off and we are talking 2013...didn't know your great great grandmother like you, only just born yesterday.
the rise in tandem ... ok fair statement ..
but after 10 yrs it can sell at resale price which could be double the purchase price right ?
if want to complain ... should complain WHY BTO so expensive ..
why govt sell land at such high price for HDB estate?
Why HDB cost varies so much between locations ... ?
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:21
Chicken rice also bankrupting my next generation. It will cost $650 a plate. One day, finish 1 day of salary already.
ya lor ...
his logic damn weird leh ...
like that I can also say the private property sector now is bankrupting the next generation and the generations after ....
he some more said he has $4mio and cannot make it into the rich club ...wow .... made from real estate ?
hand down to the next generation lor ... can buy 4 resale HDB leow
proud owner
03-09-13, 00:22
from your posts, it seems to me that you are not a Singaporean?
if you are, maybe you would understand why the rising prices are choking the younger generation and saddling them with a much greater debt than their predecessors. and that's only for basic housing.
imagine that in the not so distant future, a base 3 room flat sells for almost half a million. yes, that would make those who own it a lot richer, at least on paper, but what about the younger ones who are just starting to work? please bear in mind that not everyone is a graduate, some only manage a salary of 1k up.
your colleagues are probably thinking at that wavelength.. the high prices are just on paper unless they encash it or sell it for another. PRs have the easy way out of selling them and buying up land in their native ground but most locals here don't have this option.
and please stop calling people stupid.
I thought a lot of people here say salaries have gone up a lot ?
so price up ... salary up ... ok mah ?
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 00:24
buy from government. earn 1K can buy 2 bed room liao. so what so difficult! pple willing to spend more than 1K on Ipad. or upgrade their phone every 6 mths but kpkb $200 pm to buy a HDB is expensive. lol....
I say its greedy n lazy.
Did you do the calculations and verify the costs yourself? I did the sums after hearing the NDR and:doh::doh:
who wouldnt mind cheap cheap HDB? Ride Tiger easy, Dismount difficult.
2molo announce HDB for citizen is $100k only. We want all generation of Singaporean to be debt free. No more resales profiting, can only sell at purchase price plus inflation.
How can it help anyone? can the poor become better off? what kinda of quality would one expect? Who wanna build if there is no $$ to be made?
Did you do the calculations and verify the costs yourself? I did the sums after hearing the NDR and:doh::doh:
Can deduct from cpf.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:31
You want to share your calculations here?
Let's assume HDB loan - 2.6%, 25 years loan, 80% loan. The flat cost 90k (I use the higher range of a 2br but you can get it as cheap as 76k.)
Since you have done your sums already, can you enlighten us?
Husband earn $500, Wife earn $500. Total $1k. Let's see your calculation.
Did you do the calculations and verify the costs yourself? I did the sums after hearing the NDR and:doh::doh:
thomastansb
03-09-13, 00:42
Here is my calculation for a poor couple. Wife earn $500, husband earn $500. No increment for the rest of their life (unbelievable but just use this extreme case).
2 Bedroom - 90k
Grant - 50k
Nett price of HDB = 40k
Downpayment 20% = 8k (About 3 years of working while waiting for HDB to save this 8k in CPF based on 1k income)
Loan 80% @ 25 years - 32k
Monthly repayment = $145
CPF contribution = $230
Cash = $0
Couple is still able to save $85 a month in CPF OA.
Bought 40k, market value $150k after 5 years MOP. Sound like a very good deal to me.
So anyone dare to challenge my calculation?? Especially for those who say it is impossible.
Even if the couple go for a big size 2 bedroom @ 110k, 80% loan, monthly repayment only $217. Cash outlay = $0.
These households earning $1,000 can qualify for generous housing grants. Available to them are the Additional CPF Housing Grant (AHG) of up to $40,000, and the Special CPF Housing Grant (SHG) of up to $20,000. These grants could be used for the flat down payment. Total = $60,000
How much is a flat? Using the selling price of a new 2-room BTO flat in Fernvale Lea in Sengkang as an example, it is $100,000 (offered in the Jan 12 BTO exercise; the price range was from $83,000 to $112,000)
Deduct the $60,000. The applicant needs to pay $40,000.
With a loan for $40,000, repayment per month is as shown below:
- 25 years loan : $182/mth
- 20 years loan : $214/mth
For a young household headed by an income earner with a salary of $1,000 per month. He will have a total of $217 contributed monthly to his CPF Ordinary Account.
Did you do the calculations and verify the costs yourself? I did the sums after hearing the NDR and:doh::doh:
YES I did. intact I was looking to get one of my cousin to apply. I cal for him. 2 bed single. under $1500pm salary. after grant only have to fork out $40K loan! If he pick the lower floor only fork out 23K loan!
DID U really really go check before u jump to conclusion?
who wouldnt mind cheap cheap HDB? Ride Tiger easy, Dismount difficult.
2molo announce HDB for citizen is $100k only. We want all generation of Singaporean to be debt free. No more resales profiting, can only sell at purchase price plus inflation.
How can it help anyone? can the poor become better off? what kinda of quality would one expect? Who wanna build if there is no $$ to be made?
Then HDB become utility basis . then there is no diff from rental. no sense of ownership and how would that help the singaporean?
And when singapore proposer and value increase. These folks dont benifit from it?
If HDB was Utility people will KPKB again say they work so hard to contribute to the Singapore growth and their house have no real value? KPKB again
True. When my dad bought his HDB at 40k, Singapore was a 3rd world country without MRT. Even water also got problem. Who cares about property price when you don't even have food or water tomorrow.
WAT 40K!! so ex. my grand father time was only 6K! :)
If you are taking a housing loan from the HDB you only have to pay a 10% initial payment. You can use your CPF savings or the CPF Housing Grant or a combination of both to make the payment. If there is a shortfall, you will have to pay the balance in cash.
Wah only 10% down payment if loan from hdb.
Can use cpf housing grant to offset down payment too.
2 room hdb flat no initial cash can buy liao for those earning $1000 per month.
lets say the next generation just buy BTO ...much much cheaper than resale right ? how to bankrupt them ?
but if we continue to sell resale to PR ... they are helping us to unload and take profit ... isn't that good ?
then next generation then stay until sian ... sell to PR ...take profit ... upgrade to condo ...
I don't understand how selling to PR will bankrupt the next generation ..
1. Don't you hear the lament by many new grads, yes grads complaining they can't even afford a decent new BTO? Cheaper than resale, but still expensive, no need to bankrupt the next generation, my younger cousin, himself just bought a $400k bto, quite screwed if you compare with me and my older cousin who own multiple properties, including freehold landed, if this persists, I can't imagine the next generation.
2. Sure, if the PR are bearing the brunt of saddling the profits, all is good but please check the statistics, many resale flats are bought by Singapore citizens ie. They will pay for the profits of the Seller.
1. Don't you hear the lament by many new grads, yes grads complaining they can't even afford a decent new BTO? Cheaper than resale, but still expensive, no need to bankrupt the next generation, my younger cousin, himself just bought a $400k bto, quite screwed if you compare with me and my older cousin who own multiple properties, including freehold landed, if this persists, I can't imagine the next generation.
2. Sure, if the PR are bearing the brunt of saddling the profits, all is good but please check the statistics, many resale flats are bought by Singapore citizens ie. They will pay for the profits of the Seller.
When u bot your landed, did the previous owner make money??? What is inflation per year... What was starting the salary of your father?? What was your starting salary??? What is your younger cousin starting salary???
Compare houses in Singapore today, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago????
In fact, compare it with us, Malaysia, any stable country.... What do you find??? This has to do with progress...
;)
Good for your children sir, cos you paid the price for them or your forefather did. If my children didnt make it, i understand that its their fault that they didnt fight hard enough to be there. I will rem to tell them that.
Your kids wont be laughting all the way to the bank bro, cos they had it when they are born le, they will be busy spending it.
on a lighter note, you are asking for cheap housing so that your children will not screw mine, appreciate that thought bro.
Bro, all I am asking for the common man is that Property prices rise closely in tandem with wages, not greed and speculation, that way all benefit in the progress of Singapore, I have made enough and am not greedy, my son knows the value of property, he is prudent and has been trained to invest in his future. As long as my family continue to have a ratio of more property per person, we will be screwing someone else. It is a zero sum game. But I would rather I take profits on the back of a good and strong economy rather than take profits from a polarised society and see others suffer under eroding wages. Please see the difference.
When u bot your landed, did the previous owner make money??? What is inflation per year... What was starting the salary of your father?? What was your starting salary??? What is your younger cousin starting salary???
Compare houses in Singapore today, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 40 years ago????
In fact, compare it with us, Malaysia, any stable country.... What do you find??? This has to do with progress...
;)
Previous owner made a pittance when compared with the profits today, only about $350k after one and a half years, a princely sum in 1993. My dad was a scholar but his first job was a teacher earned him less than 4 figures in the 70s. My starting salary was $1.5k my younger cousin is earning about $3k double mine but property prices more than double by a big factor, so his wage is severely eroded.
Just another true example of how I screwed the followers, we bought resale HDB in 1991, $168k, owner made $78k after 5 years, we then rented out fully and resold after 2 and half years, $305k a flipping good $137k and guess who paid?
Previous owner made a pittance when compared with the profits today, only about $350k after one and a half years, a princely sum in 1993. My dad was a scholar but his first job was a teacher earned him less than 4 figures in the 70s. My starting salary was $1.5k my younger cousin is earning about $3k double mine but property prices more than double by a big factor, so his wage is severely eroded.
Just another true example of how I screwed the followers, we bought resale HDB in 1991, $168k, owner made $78k after 5 years, we then rented out fully and resold after 2 and half years, $305k a flipping good $137k and guess who paid?
Well done bro. The previous owner of your hdb also laughing right. All I am saying is inflation will prevail. That's all. Timing plays an important part in how much more 1 makes. But over a long duration, prices will always creep up. Holding power is key.
Cheers
There will be people not happy with price increase and there will be people happy. How to please everyone. :)
For a while, people forget that queueing for BTO take years and lots of luck till lately.. And low cost BTO and increase housing grants also due to lots of kpkb lately from lots of citizens..
Well done bro. The previous owner of your hdb also laughing right. All I am saying is inflation will prevail. That's all. Timing plays an important part in how much more 1 makes. But over a long duration, prices will always creep up. Holding power is key.
Cheers
There will be people not happy with price increase and there will be people happy. How to please everyone. :)
The keyword is to rise with inflation at inflation rate. As a property owner I am definitely happy with price increases, but I am also aware of who pays for these increases eventually, many don't and just happily pat themselves on the back.......very sad and short sighted and worst of all call others goondu when they actually have to payback via their children, simply unbelievable!
Bro, all I am asking for the common man is that Property prices rise closely in tandem with wages, not greed and speculation, that way all benefit in the progress of Singapore, I have made enough and am not greedy, my son knows the value of property, he is prudent and has been trained to invest in his future. As long as my family continue to have a ratio of more property per person, we will be screwing someone else. It is a zero sum game. But I would rather I take profits on the back of a good and strong economy rather than take profits from a polarised society and see others suffer under eroding wages. Please see the difference.
sir unfortunately as we continue to do well as a country, widening income gap will continue to happen. Those at the bottom get depressed and whose whom are mobile will enjoy a larger pay package. This is nature of competition. I can see the govt is trying to help the poor by helping them owning their own property. In this generation, the poor cant get out of it but their children can. The education system gives them a chance. As i travel more and see the world, its nothing less than a miracle where we are today. Property prices here are high for a reason.
While $400k for a 4room for a medium normal family is not cheap, frankly, if a person works hard for himself, coming out of society with a Dipolma or Degree, how many of them really cant afford 1 after 5-6 years of working? Can i quote you an example? one of my colleague bought their hdb 3room, when he is 22 and his wife is 22 when apply for HDB(ROM when house arrive 3 yrs later). His income is then 0(cos about to start work) and his wife is less than $2k, they did their homeowork and quick apply for a house. They got their house without any DP, all settled by Additonal housing grant and so for. Smart boy in my view.
eroding wages? you have a point. My opinion is everyone have a chance to make a difference for themselves and their family. Their upbringing is important as well as a good education. Frankly when my generation dies, next generation will inherit their parent's HDB and condos. That by itself is enjoying the fruits of the earlier generation's hard work.
Like my tagline i live by, Pay the price of success today or one day pay the price of failure.
Sir, the hard truth is i guess in 100-200 years time Singapore might not be around anymore. Mr LKW saw it and highlighted it possibility. We are a city state, that doesnt do well in the pages of history. With the keyboard heros culture and mentality i am seeing, its more likely to happen sooner or later.
The younger generation(in general) simply does not possess the Girt and determination relatively.
LOL sorry for the lengthy compo.
@DaytonaSS, I can agree with you on your points, but just hope for a better Singapore where no one gets left behind, much work needs to be done by the Govt, all these recent measures are good. As for the rest, don't worry about falling prices, barring GCBs, falling prices will have a knock on effect, sell low buy low, or if this is not the case, just be happy and stay put. As for the newer entrants, they will be happy and this should be the real job of the Govt.
Upgrading is a want, buying a first home to start a family is a need. So who do you think the Govt should look after?
For a while, people forget that queueing for BTO take years and lots of luck till lately.. And low cost BTO and increase housing grants also due to lots of kpkb lately from lots of citizens..
why u attribute KBW good work to the irradiating keyboard hero's effort? i would like to think KBW is doing a great job to meet demand rather than u know who.
why u attribute KBW good work to the irradiating keyboard hero's effort? i would like to think KBW is doing a great job to meet demand rather than u know who.
Actually KBW's good work is the result of listening to many keyboard heroes' efforts.
@DaytonaSS, I can agree with you on your points, but just hope for a better Singapore where no one gets left behind, much work needs to be done by the Govt, all these recent measures are good. As for the rest, don't worry about falling prices, barring GCBs, falling prices will have a knock on effect, sell low buy low, or if this is not the case, just be happy and stay put. As for the newer entrants, they will be happy and this should be the real job of the Govt.
Upgrading is a want, buying a first home to start a family is a need. So who do you think the Govt should look after?
my take? transfer $ from left pocket to right pocket. Govt is doing damn well with the taxes. increase the grants they are giving to middle income families and help them with the first house also. High price is there already, only way to make it more affordable is to have more grants. In a way Govt is only transferring more $$$ to the national reserves for future generation when land price continues to appreciate.
Take the fat operation profit and throw more into build a first class pre-school education system, same success they have with the primary, secondary and higher education. That 3-4yrs of additional HOLISTIC education will give our children additional advantage in this globalized world. Throw fatter grant to middle to cushion the price rise, left pocket right pocket solution. Best solution, transfer of wealth to Poor and middle income. Build up their assets. All other way of dishing out $$ will only end up in casinos.
Solve this 2 issues and we can have lots of babies. Also take up the Mr LKW challenge of giving 2 year income to let family have children. I like Singaporeans to come together and proof him wrong in this area. If PaPs is reading this , pls backdate me into the incentives as well. i HAd a pair of twins last year!!! LOL
@DaytonaSS wow learning to be a keyboard hero now :D
Your points sound good and the grants are already in force, I am not in HDB market so lost touch, but I was never eligible for the grants or any grants.
Congrats on your twins.
@DaytonaSS wow learning to be a keyboard hero now :D
Your points sound good and the grants are already in force, I am not in HDB market so lost touch, but I was never eligible for the grants or any grants.
Congrats on your twins.
LOL Sir you do your part by paying more stamp duties le, now all the govt have to do is transfer those to grants and building a world class pre-school.
why u attribute KBW good work to the irradiating keyboard hero's effort? i would like to think KBW is doing a great job to meet demand rather than u know who.
Are u telling me that all the recent measures (not solely just housing) has nothing got to do with the last election/by-elections?
Are u telling me that all the recent measures (not solely just housing) has nothing got to do with the last election/by-elections?
yes its related i must agree. to indicate that we are in a different era from out parent's time and some of the old policies need updating. Thus the change of Guards, new ministers whom hopefully can comprehend and communicate inter ministry.
my point is, just in case i m misunderstood. Fight for own success, dont wait for things to happen. Life is not hand out in a platter. What to do? For many, drink water also need maid to fetch,fullpack need maid to carry.
Are u telling me that all the recent measures (not solely just housing) has nothing got to do with the last election/by-elections?
The results only tell that changes are needed, keyboard heroes tell them what to change.
The results only tell that changes are needed, keyboard heroes tell them what to change.
Shame on u. Keyboard dumby. Success are determine on one effort if u wait for govt u die as a failure.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 11:09
I would like to correct something.
OA (CPF ordinary account) is 23% so if someone is earning 1k, $230 will go into OA.
Secondly, people usually pay 20% downpayment. People always ask, how people fork out 20%? Well, you work for a year (230 x 12), apply for BTO and while waiting for BTO, you accumulate the amount (230 x 36). You would have 11k in your OA by then.
Government already calculated for the very very low income workers. ie: Those earning $500. I believe the policy is sound and able to withstand any scrutiny. For those who hate the Government, please do not twist the facts. Like those who say the calculation is flawed, show us. Don't empty talk here. I also dislike some policies like our medisave, cpf life, transport but we should talk about facts and numbers. Not everything lump up and discredit those who work hard.
These households earning $1,000 can qualify for generous housing grants. Available to them are the Additional CPF Housing Grant (AHG) of up to $40,000, and the Special CPF Housing Grant (SHG) of up to $20,000. These grants could be used for the flat down payment. Total = $60,000
How much is a flat? Using the selling price of a new 2-room BTO flat in Fernvale Lea in Sengkang as an example, it is $100,000 (offered in the Jan 12 BTO exercise; the price range was from $83,000 to $112,000)
Deduct the $60,000. The applicant needs to pay $40,000.
With a loan for $40,000, repayment per month is as shown below:
- 25 years loan : $182/mth
- 20 years loan : $214/mth
For a young household headed by an income earner with a salary of $1,000 per month. He will have a total of $217 contributed monthly to his CPF Ordinary Account.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 11:11
Hahaha. Give some chance la. I am only 31 years old and it was my dad who bought at 40k. I am sure my granddad would have gotten it at 6k as well but too bad, that time, he don't even have money to eat. Let alone buying a flat. So how to compare? 6k vs today 250k. No food, no water at that time vs today.
WAT 40K!! so ex. my grand father time was only 6K! :)
thomastansb
03-09-13, 11:18
1) Who complain? I can earn 10k and yet, at the same time, I can complain chicken rice is too expensive at $3. That is why we need to see some stats.
2) How many % of Singaporeans buy resale? Are they first time buyers? Did they take grants? Some buy BTO at 150k, sell 500k, then buy another resale nearer to their work place. You need to back your claim with some REAL STATISTICS. Not empty talk. To me, first time buyers should buy BTO (buy low, sell high). Those above 10k can buy EC. Those above 12k, you should be able to take care of yourself, right?
1. Don't you hear the lament by many new grads, yes grads complaining they can't even afford a decent new BTO? Cheaper than resale, but still expensive, no need to bankrupt the next generation, my younger cousin, himself just bought a $400k bto, quite screwed if you compare with me and my older cousin who own multiple properties, including freehold landed, if this persists, I can't imagine the next generation.
2. Sure, if the PR are bearing the brunt of saddling the profits, all is good but please check the statistics, many resale flats are bought by Singapore citizens ie. They will pay for the profits of the Seller.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 11:20
I fully agree with you. MBT somehow screw things up from 2006 to 2009. Not enough BTO for 3 years.
But I have to disagree with low cost BTO. BTO is already cheap. It is just cheaper now.
For a while, people forget that queueing for BTO take years and lots of luck till lately.. And low cost BTO and increase housing grants also due to lots of kpkb lately from lots of citizens..
1) Who complain? I can earn 10k and yet, at the same time, I can complain chicken rice is too expensive at $3. That is why we need to see some stats.
2) How many % of Singaporeans buy resale? Are they first time buyers? Did they take grants? Some buy BTO at 150k, sell 500k, then buy another resale nearer to their work place. You need to back your claim with some REAL STATISTICS. Not empty talk. To me, first time buyers should buy BTO (buy low, sell high). Those above 10k can buy EC. Those above 12k, you should be able to take care of yourself, right?
Fair comment, then next time Govt should quote you when the public comments that BTOs are too expensive....I remember someone making a very famous comment, "you want to eat restaurant, or coffeshop?" that comment outraged many.
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 11:39
You want to share your calculations here?
Let's assume HDB loan - 2.6%, 25 years loan, 80% loan. The flat cost 90k (I use the higher range of a 2br but you can get it as cheap as 76k.)
Since you have done your sums already, can you enlighten us?
Husband earn $500, Wife earn $500. Total $1k. Let's see your calculation.
Just to clarify, what I am saying is the example used during the rally for 3Rm HDB is not correct. According to the final purchase price of 111000 after all grants, the monthly instalment is $453, not $427 as illustrated during NDR. Reason is the interest rate used is not 2.6% (HDB home loan) but Bank Loan rate is used. That is why I am not happy about the figures. (Nothing about affordability)
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 11:46
Just to clarify, what I am saying is the example used during the rally for 3Rm HDB is not correct. According to the final purchase price of 111000 after all grants, the monthly instalment is $453, not $427 as illustrated during NDR. Reason is the interest rate used is not 2.6% (HDB home loan) but Bank Loan rate is used. That is why I am not happy about the figures. (Nothing about affordability)
And the money going to CPF OA for a $2000 gross income is $420. So for a $2000 income person, he is short of $33. Which can be tight for someone surviving on $1600 net income.
All this assuming he can get the cheapest BTO at 150k and is eligible for ALL possible grants. As acknowledged during NDR the typical 3BR flat is $170k. So things may be even harder for low wage earner.
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 12:01
And the money going to CPF OA for a $2000 gross income is $420. So for a $2000 income person, he is short of $33. Which can be tight for someone surviving on $1600 net income.
All this assuming he can get the cheapest BTO at 150k and is eligible for ALL possible grants. As acknowledged during NDR the typical 3BR flat is $170k. So things may be even harder for low wage earner.
Things become even more challenging with MSR reduced to 30%. So for a person earning $2000, he can only loan an amount not exceeding $600 monthly instalment, assuming he has not other loans... Hence not really a happy proposition. Many people are affected by this.
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:05
Born and grew up in Singapore. Pink IC since 12 years old.
Don't tell me future. You fortune teller? Talk about what is on the table now. Really typical complainer. So company should pay me 20k a month because in future, chicken rice will cost $150 a plate?
you don't need to be a fortune teller to have foresight. but since you don't have foresight that the prices are escalating too quickly and wish to talk about what's on the table, well fine we'll talk about that.
ok, so we read that you've earned a fair sum from selling your hdb and got yourself upgraded and sitting on good paper gains. so you think now you're qualified to call those who aren't upgrading stupid.
if you do have kids TODAY, you don't have to worry that they cant do the same you do because the BTOs are no longer prices you've paid? we are not talking about 2rm here, not everyone qualifies for them.
today, bto for 4room in estates like hougang sells for 260k. assuming a loan of 25 years for a graduate couple each earning 2.5k, they have to pay 1100 per month for housing. this is assuming both have to work.
This also means that if a couple were to be poly holders earning 2k each, it's better that they go for 3room then.
did you have to go through this predicament or was it easier for you?
can you imagine if prices for housing continue to go North, wouldn't the young find it tougher? are your friends really stupid to be worried about the future generations or are they for short term gains like you?
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:06
and your example of a 2br is so skewed.. please note that incomes of 500 don't earn cpf..
2 br is also for those earning less than 5k a month. yes I do agree that prices have been lowered for the lower income group and I'm heartened that the govt is doing more for them.
but when your friends are worried, they are not worried for the kids in this strata of society but the middle income instead.
the govt knows this and that's why they have all these new measures in place. guess they share the same worry and hear the voices. I suppose you think they are stupid too thomastan?
1. Don't you hear the lament by many new grads, yes grads complaining they can't even afford a decent new BTO? Cheaper than resale, but still expensive, no need to bankrupt the next generation, my younger cousin, himself just bought a $400k bto, quite screwed if you compare with me and my older cousin who own multiple properties, including freehold landed, if this persists, I can't imagine the next generation.
2. Sure, if the PR are bearing the brunt of saddling the profits, all is good but please check the statistics, many resale flats are bought by Singapore citizens ie. They will pay for the profits of the Seller.
Liked! Profiteers are screaming because the tap is closed now to protect our younger generations! :im-so-happy:
you don't need to be a fortune teller to have foresight. but since you don't have foresight that the prices are escalating too quickly and wish to talk about what's on the table, well fine we'll talk about that.
ok, so we read that you've earned a fair sum from selling your hdb and got yourself upgraded and sitting on good paper gains. so you think now you're qualified to call those who aren't upgrading stupid.
if you do have kids TODAY, you don't have to worry that they cant do the same you do because the BTOs are no longer prices you've paid? we are not talking about 2rm here, not everyone qualifies for them.
today, bto for 4room in estates like hougang sells for 260k. assuming a loan of 25 years for a graduate couple each earning 2.5k, they have to pay 1100 per month for housing. this is assuming both have to work.
This also means that if a couple were to be poly holders earning 2k each, it's better that they go for 3room then.
did you have to go through this predicament or was it easier for you?
can you imagine if prices for housing continue to go North, wouldn't the young find it tougher? are your friends really stupid to be worried about the future generations or are they for short term gains like you?
Liked! Thomastan is short term gainer! :tongue3:
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:32
your thinking is based on the entitlement mentality that it is the govt duty to provide everyone a cheap housing? how many govt in the world actually
help their citizens actually own a ASSET(HDB)? in your view its a debt. Stay 5 years sell easily make $100-200k, how is that a debt? where in the world got such good deal?
your next qn is sell then stay where? so you see the entitlement mentality? u take your $200 k u can decide how u want to live your life with your family. U have a head start compared to your fellow human being in another state or continent.
U can become PR in another country, buy their property live few years make $$$ and Run also. The choice is ours really in life. The difference between PR and KAKB gen Y is, they want to sit there and wait to be spoon feed. At least alot of PR leave their country in search of better life for their themselves and their family while keyboard heros only wanna freaking type and wait for things to happen
Finally , Peace man, dont want to offend pple.
malaysia got very cheap house also, forever wont feel chocking for those whom give up the fight.
you're digressing.. if you read my reply, it was with response to thomastan post that his colleagues were stupid to lament that prices are rising when they are holding on to the same hdb.
and you assume that everyone is happy to be paying for 100-200k of paper gains. if you only have one house, you sell high and buy high right? how is that meaningful if you are alr staying in a 3rm? let's not forget that there are levies if you downgrade or go for another bto unless it's an EC.
you are saying that if the prices are getting out of reach, you should just keep mum and look to migrate without first notifying your country? people feedback to their govt almost all over the world, you mean Singaporeans cant do that? you're living in North Korea?
and those people complaining about the measure and expecting prices to continue rising.. aren't they with an ENTITLEMENT mentality? that they feel entitled to a price rise? don't those PRs feel that they are entitled to a hdb flat after getting PR?
Im very sure tis is juz the beginning of another mess.
in the past, poor & middle class ppl kpkb hdb is too exp even though they get to buy BTO.
now HDB go down hill, BTO owners wun earn as much profit in the future; resale flat owners might earn a loss unless one sell perhaps > 10 yrs later.
but when ppl noe tat hdb is no longer profitable, Im not sure how much can a resale flat appreciate 10 yrs later.
next, these bunch of poor & middle class is gonna kpkb again tat they hv bought a white elephant. :banghead:
so wat's the govt gg to do next? :beats-me-man:
Give the people wat they want! a gun to shoot themselves in the feet or the head. Why? coz all short sighted. And the Mess? its demanded by the people..
you're digressing.. if you read my reply, it was with response to thomastan post that his colleagues were stupid to lament that prices are rising when they are holding on to the same hdb.
and you assume that everyone is happy to be paying for 100-200k of paper gains. if you only have one house, you sell high and buy high right? how is that meaningful if you are alr staying in a 3rm? let's not forget that there are levies if you downgrade or go for another bto unless it's an EC.
you are saying that if the prices are getting out of reach, you should just keep mum and look to migrate without first notifying your country? people feedback to their govt almost all over the world, you mean Singaporeans cant do that? you're living in North Korea?
Dont sell the 3bed room then. rent out one room. still profitable. yiled con cash is still better than 4%!
Its a assest. or rather u prefer the house to be worth a rock? which is worst off?
If need hard on cash it always a last resort. sell go rent and try to make a come back or old liao down grade to 1 bedder when children already leave the nest.
OR U mean prefer the home be worth no more than a ROCK? lol....
think abt it. Rather have options then non.
Fair comment, then next time Govt should quote you when the public comments that BTOs are too expensive....I remember someone making a very famous comment, "you want to eat restaurant, or coffeshop?" that comment outraged many.
KNS lah. everything also expensive. best is FREE... Right. no need to work sit at home dig nose drink beer and scratch ass.
Thats the bestest right. I say dont be lazy.! Who say cannot afford show me the no.
fresh grad salad is 3K a couple 6K
tell me cannot affort a BTO? show me why cannot?
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:43
Dont sell the 3bed room then. rent out one room. still profitable. yiled con cash is still better than 4%!
Its a assest. or rather u prefer the house to be worth a rock? which is worst off?
If need hard on cash it always a last resort. sell go rent and try to make a come back or old liao down grade to 1 bedder when children already leave the nest.
OR U mean prefer the home be worth no more than a ROCK? lol....
think abt it. Rather have options then non.
dude you're seriously out of point.. no one is asking for the house to worth no more than a rock?!?!
we are talking about govt capping prices to allow more affordability? are they crashing it?
And the money going to CPF OA for a $2000 gross income is $420. So for a $2000 income person, he is short of $33. Which can be tight for someone surviving on $1600 net income.
All this assuming he can get the cheapest BTO at 150k and is eligible for ALL possible grants. As acknowledged during NDR the typical 3BR flat is $170k. So things may be even harder for low wage earner.
define low wage.?
And the money going to CPF OA for a $2000 gross income is $420. So for a $2000 income person, he is short of $33. Which can be tight for someone surviving on $1600 net income.
All this assuming he can get the cheapest BTO at 150k and is eligible for ALL possible grants. As acknowledged during NDR the typical 3BR flat is $170k. So things may be even harder for low wage earner.
at 170K for a 3 bedder for example. BTO. why cannot afford? 5% down. Rest form CPF and every mth..400 from CPF to pay for home. anyway a couple together will be 4K and 800 pm from CPF..
tell me not enough? wat else is needed a Merc?
in the late 90s. when I graduated I was drawing $2000 and wife $1800. we took up a 500K loan for EC then. also live comforatbly. and interested rate was 3.5-4% then..
tell me today calculation for 170K not enough? must be all smoking weed. feeling greedy.
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 12:46
define low wage.?
In this example $2000 gross income is example. Definition of low wage is meaningless cos no definitive answer, right?
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 12:48
at 170K for a 3 bedder for example. BTO. why cannot afford? 5% down. Rest form CPF and every mth..400 from CPF to pay for home. anyway a couple together will be 4K and 800 pm from CPF..
tell me not enough? wat else is needed a Merc?
Minority, you are right. Can afford.
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:49
KNS lah. everything also expensive. best is FREE... Right. no need to work sit at home dig nose drink beer and scratch ass.
Thats the bestest right. I say dont be lazy.! Who say cannot afford show me the no.
fresh grad salad is 3K a couple 6K
tell me cannot affort a BTO? show me why cannot?
again you're using extreme examples, who is asking houses to be free?
the whole Singapore is not made of graduates man.. there are diploma holders. not all grads earn 3k too, some 2.5, some 2.2, some 4,5..
you ASSume that both parties in a family are working, does that apply to every family?
In this example $2000 gross income is example. Definition of low wage is meaningless cos no definitive answer, right?
with todays grant targeting low wage under 1K - 1.5K single or combine income can buy a 2bedder. pick the 83K unit. only have to pay 23K for a 2bedder.
tell me cannot afford? I donno wat else to say.. maybe lets tax all these KPKB peopel 45-60% income tax and give low wage owners free house. How abt that? those KPKB should contribute.
Lets see wat they would say.
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 12:52
Minority, you are right. Can afford.
I see, we discussing $2000 household income right? Not fresh grads earning 3k each right?
So 170k 3Rm HDB after grants is 131k. Monthly for 25 Yr loan is $535. I am sure $400 from CPF can afford. To be safe I calculated based on 10% DP. Not 5% as you suggested as that will mean higher monthly instalment.
Liked! Profiteers are screaming because the tap is closed now to protect our younger generations! :im-so-happy:
protect? lol digging a getto grave for them. the so call profiteers already on a boat liao. its the young generation dont want to get onboard.
Bye Bye... Mucks!!!! Adios.. last chance to change ur mind.. Dont Ai Wan.
I see, we discussing $2000 household income right? Not fresh grads earning 3k each right?
So 170k 3Rm HDB after grants is 131k. Monthly for 25 Yr loan is $535. I am sure $400 from CPF can afford.
Aiuyah spend less on the hand phone or dont upgrade the phone so often. can make it 1.. People just kpkb hoping for golden pig drop from sky..
Nothing is free in life. everything have a cost.
remember that.. ask for free will have to pay later.
invigorated
03-09-13, 12:56
in the late 90s. when I graduated I was drawing $2000 and wife $1800. we took up a 500K loan for EC then. also live comforatbly. and interested rate was 3.5-4% then..
500k for an EC more than 13 years ago? which EC is that?
protect? lol digging a getto grave for them. the so call profiteers already on a boat liao. its the young generation dont want to get onboard.
Bye Bye... Mucks!!!! Adios.. last chance to change ur mind.. Dont Ai Wan.
People like you will never understand, because you put your conscience in your pocket. But you have choosen to be cursed as a price for the short term gain you have gotten. You can sleep soundly, don't you? :im-so-happy:
edwinleeap
03-09-13, 13:10
Aiuyah spend less on the hand phone or dont upgrade the phone so often. can make it 1.. People just kpkb hoping for golden pig drop from sky..
Nothing is free in life. everything have a cost.
remember that.. ask for free will have to pay later.
Please be sensitive. There are people on 2k monthly income making ends meet.
A family of 4 surviving on 2k gross and 1.6k net?
Let's do a simple calculation
Utilities: 120
Transport: 300
Food: 800
Others: Include medical, clothes, TC, fees etc (left with $380 for everything)
If need to top up cash for HDB, say $100. Basically very tough. Don't even need to think of buying handphone or TV or washing machines etc.
The 3yr wait is unlikely to cause a huge ripple in HDB resale price. The current price correction is due to previous cooling measures and this current one seems to amplify the correction. However, when the market absorb this news, this 3yr rule is unlikely to be the key concern on HDB price. Data shows that only 20% of PR are responsible for resales transactions. I suspect that only 20% of these 20% are newly minted PRs. So, it could be anything from 4%-20%. Very likely to be in the lower end and thus a minimum impact to resale price. There are about 20k transactions a year for the circa 1m HDBs.
PRs who are here recently are unlikely to make a huge financial commitment in Singapore. $1m is not a small amount and requires 20% + 5% (ABSD) + 3% (BSD) cash upfront. Not small and probably a huge deterence. The $50k SGD (ABSD) is better spent by waiting to be a citizen and paying rent in the meantime. The possibility of higher interests and price correction is higher now. A newly minted PRs will probably wait for the ABSD rule to change or to wait 3yr later. 3yr is a relatively short time to buy a resale HDB later.
Only a very aggressive and cash rich PR with a very positive outlook will buy a condo at $1m. Unlikely to have many?
in the late 90s. when I graduated I was drawing $2000 and wife $1800. we took up a 500K loan for EC then. also live comforatbly. and interested rate was 3.5-4% then..
tell me today calculation for 170K not enough? must be all smoking weed. feeling greedy.
I also bought my EC during late 90s.. Ordinary acct contribution rate is higher than now but still for $500k loan (~$2.2k for 35yrs loan period and 4% int), you will need to fork out cash of ~$1.3k there about.. With a take home net pay of ~$1.75k and still need to pay maintainence fees ($200+ then), can live comfortably? Assuming u bought a 3bedroom EC (since ~$600+k), must either have kids or plan to have, wow..
Please be sensitive. There are people on 2k monthly income making ends meet.
A family of 4 surviving on 2k gross and 1.6k net?
Let's do a simple calculation
Utilities: 120
Transport: 300
Food: 800
Others: Include medical, clothes, TC, fees etc (left with $380 for everything)
If need to top up cash for HDB, say $100. Basically very tough. Don't even need to think of buying handphone or TV or washing machines etc.
Peng u. Yes that's why I say can still go for 2 bedder. 23-40k wat. All paid via cpf. Even the 5% is grant.
So tell me where in the world got such kang Tao a not. Mthly payment is from cpf no change in daily expenses.
People like you will never understand, because you put your conscience in your pocket. But you have choosen to be cursed as a price for the short term gain you have gotten. You can sleep soundly, don't you? :im-so-happy:
Wat short term gain. Bugger I m talking abt long term. U are cursing the poorer generation to a getto. Ur example of 2k per mth whole fail my. So when the children grow up n the parent pass the existing house is a assest to help the next generation a lift. Help the less mobile be mobile.
U suggestion is to group them into a getto where housing have no value😱.
U have no heart or longer term vision. H want to buy cheap is it? The. Kpkb why bo price go up is it ? Future generation my foot.
500k for an EC more than 13 years ago? which EC is that?
U wat me to name u a few? Sapphire in Yishun , Florida , etc aiyohhhh so many.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:10
If a husband earn 1k, wife earn 1k, OA is $460. Still no cash outlay.
And the money going to CPF OA for a $2000 gross income is $420. So for a $2000 income person, he is short of $33. Which can be tight for someone surviving on $1600 net income.
All this assuming he can get the cheapest BTO at 150k and is eligible for ALL possible grants. As acknowledged during NDR the typical 3BR flat is $170k. So things may be even harder for low wage earner.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:11
That is why PM Lee advise you to buy 3 bedroom. MSR @ 30%, you pay $400++ only. Buy within your means.
Or unless you are telling me a couple earning 2k is eyeing on Scott square? :rolleyes:
Things become even more challenging with MSR reduced to 30%. So for a person earning $2000, he can only loan an amount not exceeding $600 monthly instalment, assuming he has not other loans... Hence not really a happy proposition. Many people are affected by this.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:15
I won't be worried. Only those misinformed would be.
Firstly, I will go google a housing loan calculator.
I will then go google what is the average salary. If my son/daughter is from ITE, I will find the average salary. Assuming it is 1.5k, I would assume my son + his spouse would be around 3k.
Then I will calculate what kind of flats can they buy. I would be realistic to opt for a 3 bedroom for them if they are earning 3k. Maybe 4 bedroom if they are earning 5k (grad starting salary).
Then I will key into the housing loan calculator and I will get the result.
I won't go around if this, if that. There is no if. It is only yes or no. The amount is static, it won't change.
you don't need to be a fortune teller to have foresight. but since you don't have foresight that the prices are escalating too quickly and wish to talk about what's on the table, well fine we'll talk about that.
ok, so we read that you've earned a fair sum from selling your hdb and got yourself upgraded and sitting on good paper gains. so you think now you're qualified to call those who aren't upgrading stupid.
if you do have kids TODAY, you don't have to worry that they cant do the same you do because the BTOs are no longer prices you've paid? we are not talking about 2rm here, not everyone qualifies for them.
today, bto for 4room in estates like hougang sells for 260k. assuming a loan of 25 years for a graduate couple each earning 2.5k, they have to pay 1100 per month for housing. this is assuming both have to work.
This also means that if a couple were to be poly holders earning 2k each, it's better that they go for 3room then.
did you have to go through this predicament or was it easier for you?
can you imagine if prices for housing continue to go North, wouldn't the young find it tougher? are your friends really stupid to be worried about the future generations or are they for short term gains like you?
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:17
What ?!?!???? You earning 2k. Crap. I was earning $800 at CPF with a diploma while waiting for NS. Hahaha. But I don't blame the Government :D
at 170K for a 3 bedder for example. BTO. why cannot afford? 5% down. Rest form CPF and every mth..400 from CPF to pay for home. anyway a couple together will be 4K and 800 pm from CPF..
tell me not enough? wat else is needed a Merc?
in the late 90s. when I graduated I was drawing $2000 and wife $1800. we took up a 500K loan for EC then. also live comforatbly. and interested rate was 3.5-4% then..
tell me today calculation for 170K not enough? must be all smoking weed. feeling greedy.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:19
The stats show us the median household income is 5k. The Government will know how many people is earning how much. I dare to say most people earn > 1k a month.
again you're using extreme examples, who is asking houses to be free?
the whole Singapore is not made of graduates man.. there are diploma holders. not all grads earn 3k too, some 2.5, some 2.2, some 4,5..
you ASSume that both parties in a family are working, does that apply to every family?
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:25
What a good deal. 1k income can buy a flat at 170k which is valued at 350 to 400k after 5 years MOP. I am sure every country citizens are admiring us. Where to find such deal :)
Btw, you forgot something. During the 3 years wait for the BTO, the couple would have accumulated 16.5k which is used as DP for the house. Your monthly installment will go down to 400+ only.
I see, we discussing $2000 household income right? Not fresh grads earning 3k each right?
So 170k 3Rm HDB after grants is 131k. Monthly for 25 Yr loan is $535. I am sure $400 from CPF can afford. To be safe I calculated based on 10% DP. Not 5% as you suggested as that will mean higher monthly instalment.
thomastansb
03-09-13, 17:28
Don't deviate. You are now saying poor people earning 2k need to pay for a lot of things. This has got NOTHING to do with housing.
It is possible to get a 3 bedroom without paying a single cent of cash. What more you want?
Anyway, there are a lot of poor people around. So how? Blame the Government or what?
Please be sensitive. There are people on 2k monthly income making ends meet.
A family of 4 surviving on 2k gross and 1.6k net?
Let's do a simple calculation
Utilities: 120
Transport: 300
Food: 800
Others: Include medical, clothes, TC, fees etc (left with $380 for everything)
If need to top up cash for HDB, say $100. Basically very tough. Don't even need to think of buying handphone or TV or washing machines etc.
That is why PM Lee advise you to buy 3 bedroom. MSR @ 30%, you pay $400++ only. Buy within your means.
Or unless you are telling me a couple earning 2k is eyeing on Scott square? :rolleyes:
WHY cannot buy GCB with 2K pm!!! WHY!!!
Don't deviate. You are now saying poor people earning 2k need to pay for a lot of things. This has got NOTHING to do with housing.
It is possible to get a 3 bedroom without paying a single cent of cash. What more you want?
Anyway, there are a lot of poor people around. So how? Blame the Government or what?
I dont want to work.. so income zero but I want to own GCB!! How?
Like in Brunei. earn little little can own big house and 2 cars. all ah kong fund. I ask before why so un competitive or laid back. answer why work so hard. ah kong give everything. Oil we have Oil. But they very scare oil run out. sure marti. Those who have planned all plan to leave if oil runs out. all park their money else where. And Yes singapore is one of the place they also park other than london , hk and US.
Singapore have wat? Have fart! ah . C mee resources ah bo. n the people want to everything ah kong provide.
LOL... Good lor prepare to live in getto.
Don't deviate. You are now saying poor people earning 2k need to pay for a lot of things. This has got NOTHING to do with housing.
It is possible to get a 3 bedroom without paying a single cent of cash. What more you want?
Anyway, there are a lot of poor people around. So how? Blame the Government or what?
Blame pay never go up 50% or 100% loh. Wage suppressed mah. But come to paying for day to day even housing or medical all expect free.
can u see the disparity? everyone pay high high where get low cost people delivery services we so need but do not want to pay for it? Oh NO FT hor... too..
I think 7 mth.. we can enlist the ghost.. they very cheap eat candle and joss stick. can provide free service.. at almost no cost. plus they are local talent from the past!!
WIN WIN right?!
I also bought my EC during late 90s.. Ordinary acct contribution rate is higher than now but still for $500k loan (~$2.2k for 35yrs loan period and 4% int), you will need to fork out cash of ~$1.3k there about.. With a take home net pay of ~$1.75k and still need to pay maintainence fees ($200+ then), can live comfortably? Assuming u bought a 3bedroom EC (since ~$600+k), must either have kids or plan to have, wow..
I started out.
2 person. one pay 2K one pay 1.8K.. total 3.8K After CPF. take home 3K total. Very hard to live meh? EC paid by CPF contribution. Can still have my yr end holiday. go eat restaurant once a mth. and over the years have 2 kids.
Then over the years work hard climb the ladder. I believe in improving my self dont be lazy ard and be happy with 2K.
Anyway here is the break down. 500K EC. 20% cover from CFP . loan 400K. 35yrs. at 3.5-4% int per mth is 1300-1400. CPF contribution employee n employer 1280. both party. fork out extra 100-200 buck a mth. left ard 2900-2800 pm. minus food expenses and electrical maintances and 2 person still have ard 1.5K cash left. why cannot survive! base on to HDB 2 bedder I can still go buy 1 2 bedder HDB !!!
Some people are really stupid to the core. They own a HDB but are complaining about high prices. Some are my colleagues. They complain that prices are too high and HDB cost 1M to buy now. But they own a HDB. Really stupid to the max.
They are thinking about future. Their kids, their next purchase... They are not stupid, they are smart.
I fully agree with you. MBT somehow screw things up from 2006 to 2009. Not enough BTO for 3 years.
But I have to disagree with low cost BTO. BTO is already cheap. It is just cheaper now.
Did you buy a bto not long ago? Worry it is going to get cheaper?
Whose salaries have gone up a lot in past 20 years?
Think is the top 1%, including the Ministers' right?
So top 1%'s favored properties go up a lot should be natural right?
So expect GCBs, and prime located private properties to go up a lot. To say otherwise is like :doh:
I thought a lot of people here say salaries have gone up a lot ?
so price up ... salary up ... ok mah ?
Wat short term gain. Bugger I m talking abt long term. U are cursing the poorer generation to a getto. Ur example of 2k per mth whole fail my. So when the children grow up n the parent pass the existing house is a assest to help the next generation a lift. Help the less mobile be mobile.
U suggestion is to group them into a getto where housing have no value😱.
U have no heart or longer term vision. H want to buy cheap is it? The. Kpkb why bo price go up is it ? Future generation my foot.
I am just writing from my point of view with no intention to offence. Anyhow I'm too lazy to write and offend. I do not make my living out of property and obviously have no expectation of any windfall from them. Therefore, I am peaceful. But, the sudden escalating housing prices have trapped many people for the past 8 years into bigger debts, even if it is a BTO, it is still very bigger monthly instalment and over longer tenure. Surely, this spells danger as people are loaning money to 'feed' off profiteers. This is the trend of people borrowing MORE money to feed another's profit. Note: MORE So, pls don't come back and say last time people also loan mah, and all the bullshit stuff!
Of course the future generation does not mean anything to you. But, it matters to many parents and more importantly the government. why? you are going to ask.... Go and think with your foot lah! I am lazy to write more. :im-so-happy:
invigorated
03-09-13, 20:29
I won't be worried. Only those misinformed would be.
Firstly, I will go google a housing loan calculator.
I will then go google what is the average salary. If my son/daughter is from ITE, I will find the average salary. Assuming it is 1.5k, I would assume my son + his spouse would be around 3k.
Then I will calculate what kind of flats can they buy. I would be realistic to opt for a 3 bedroom for them if they are earning 3k. Maybe 4 bedroom if they are earning 5k (grad starting salary).
Then I will key into the housing loan calculator and I will get the result.
I won't go around if this, if that. There is no if. It is only yes or no. The amount is static, it won't change.
precisely the point, people have googled and calculated that public housing prices are rising too fast.
10 years ago, a grad couple can comfortably afford a 5 rm, now 4rm, in future maybe 2/3rm if there aren't measures implemented? what about non graduates?
you really don't have foresight if you don't know what is 'if'..
you're digressing.. if you read my reply, it was with response to thomastan post that his colleagues were stupid to lament that prices are rising when they are holding on to the same hdb.
and you assume that everyone is happy to be paying for 100-200k of paper gains. if you only have one house, you sell high and buy high right? how is that meaningful if you are alr staying in a 3rm? let's not forget that there are levies if you downgrade or go for another bto unless it's an EC.
you are saying that if the prices are getting out of reach, you should just keep mum and look to migrate without first notifying your country? people feedback to their govt almost all over the world, you mean Singaporeans cant do that? you're living in North Korea?
and those people complaining about the measure and expecting prices to continue rising.. aren't they with an ENTITLEMENT mentality? that they feel entitled to a price rise? don't those PRs feel that they are entitled to a hdb flat after getting PR?
1) yes everyone will be happy to pay for paper gain. in life to succeed and have financial freedom also need effort to study the system and understand how the game is being played. if play the game correctly, in 10 years maybe can own a fullly paid resale HDB.
2) price is getting out of reach because income growth in slower than price inflation. My point i have stresssed on is- dont wait. Diploma holder? take on a degree, take on a new skill. look for careers with growth potential. Only 1 person can help ourself
3) my reply wasnt directed at yourself sir, i am make an observation on how pple feel they are disadvantage in this unique benefit that singaproeans can benefit on. If understand the game and played correctly, 10 years property can be paid off. As with all investment, need effort to study how to do it.
Amber Woods
03-09-13, 21:34
From the discussions here, I sense that many people are still living in the shadow of the past.
As what Mr Khaw said sometime back, Singapore's economic growth will be slow and going forward we cannot expect property prices to grow like yesteryears.
Moving forward, there will be more changes to our property market to ensure long term sustainability. The changes we are witnessing now are just the beginning. We need to understand what lies ahead and what we should be doing to be in line with the new normal.
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