Tighten rules on HDB upgraders

[CondoInterested]

Another suggestion thought through the "bottom's hole". This "bottom hole" will sing different tune if he owns both now.

Question to Mr Chong
1. Why must the rule be sell HDB, why not sell private?
2. Why must be sell back to government, and not open market?
3. If young HDB household with many young children staying in 4 room, 5 room, Exec and invested in studio, how are they going to squeeze to the studio if your thought through "bottom's hole" suggestion comes true?
4. How does selling back to HDB help in HDB flat rental market?
5. If a retired old hack owns HDB and private and depend on 1 of the unit for rental, force to sell HDB, you or the government will take care of them until they pass on?

If you cannot answer all this questions, I only have a 4 letter word for you, you go start figuring out with your "bottom's hole" again.

The one at Straits Times also uses the "bottom's hole" to approve such "bottom's hole" thought article.



Tighten rules on HDB upgraders

The Straits Times, ST Forum
Published on Aug 17, 2013

THE revelation that more HDB flat owners are subletting their units after they upgrade to private property is disconcerting in the light of the housing supply problems over the past few years ("More HDB flat owners renting out units"; Monday).

While a rental market is necessary for transient workers here, the demand caused by an increasingly active HDB rental market could have a domino effect on already-high resale prices of flats.

There seems to be a need for stricter controls to preserve the HDB's longstanding mission of providing Singapore citizens with affordable homes, and to preserve the intent behind the Ethnic Integration Policy and Singapore Permanent Resident Quota.

Would the authorities consider requiring households that own both private and public housing to sell their HDB flats back to the Government at pre-determined prices?

These units could in turn be resold to citizens at prices pegged to those of Build-To-Order flats, or rented out at subsidised rates to Singaporeans who are in genuine need of a roof over their heads. "Excess" flats, meanwhile, can be sold to non-citizens at market prices.

I also urge the authorities to consider other proposals from those within and outside the property industry to end the current system that makes it possible for households to own both private property and HDB flats at the same time, so as to bring prices to more sustainable levels.

Christopher Chong

[Allthepies]

The only rule hdb should impose is that everybody is allowed to buy private and hdb (after MOP of course), but once u have HDB, u have to stay in HDB.

[Regulators]

Is hdb your father, telling u where u should stay, eat, shit n relax? :doh:

You hv forgotten onefundamental freedom as a human being under the universal declaration of human rights, and that is people should be move wherever thet want to.


The only rule hdb should impose is that everybody is allowed to buy private and hdb (after MOP of course), but once u have HDB, u have to stay in HDB.

[timmy]

The only rule hdb should impose is that everybody is allowed to buy private and hdb (after MOP of course), but once u have HDB, u have to stay in HDB.

Agree but only applicable to those who own subsidised HDB. For those who bought resale flats at sky-high prices and with zero subsidy, any such new rules should never be imposed on them if they are citizens. Otherwise, super unfair.

[Allthepies]

Is hdb your father, telling u where u should stay, eat, shit n relax? :doh:

You hv forgotten onefundamental freedom as a human being under the universal declaration of human rights, and that is people should be move wherever thet want to.

It is a fundamental concept that HDB is for occupation use only. If you don't stay there you sell it to others lo, fair and square....

[ecimbew]

Chris? The property agent?

[k00L]

Is hdb your father, telling u where u should stay, eat, shit n relax? :doh:

You hv forgotten onefundamental freedom as a human being under the universal declaration of human rights, and that is people should be move wherever thet want to.

I too believe in the human rights to have freedom of choice - however the choice here is a public good (HDB) vs private good (Condo)

Staying in condo, but hoarding on to a public good bought at deeply subsidized prices for the interest of private gains (5-6% rental yield) doesnt sound quite right

Another issue is that price of HDB resale flats is becoming more of a function of rental yields, rather than the general Singaporean income level.

[Regulators]

If i paid full mkt px for my hdb pty , why should i allow someone to tell me where i should stay n when i should sell?
It is a fundamental concept that HDB is for occupation use only. If you don't stay there you sell it to others lo, fair and square....

[slepland]

Is hdb your father, telling u where u should stay, eat, shit n relax? :doh:

You hv forgotten onefundamental freedom as a human being under the universal declaration of human rights, and that is people should be move wherever thet want to.

Thumbs up! Regulators.

Orpeesai,
Don't show us an elitist attitude. We are free to walk into cricket club by removal of whites only policy.

[star]

The best solution is do not change anything at all, let the market force decide. Any changes in HDB rental as a whole unit or sale will affect private property prices greatly. This will also further widen the gap of poor and rich.

[Regulators]

Hdb flats only appear subsidised relative to pte pxs but are they really subsidised? What does it benchmark to? Should we compare to subsidised housing in similar economies outside sg? Just because govt says it is subsidised u believe 100% what they say? Hdb is is one of the biggest multi-million dollar businesses for the govt even though they dare not report. If hdb is not in the business of making money , they wouldn't exist.
I too believe in the human rights to have freedom of choice - however the choice here is a public good (HDB) vs private good (Condo)

Staying in condo, but hoarding on to a public good bought at deeply subsidized prices for the interest of private gains (5-6% rental yield) doesnt sound quite right

Another issue is that price of HDB resale flats is becoming more of a function of rental yields, rather than the general Singaporean income level.

[Rosy]

The only rule hdb should impose is that everybody is allowed to buy private and hdb (after MOP of course), but once u have HDB, u have to stay in HDB.
This rule used to be there during my time.

[Rosy]

I feel hdb subletting is currently too loose.

Only retirees above 55yo and/or disabled/handicapped should be allowed to sublet hdb.

[Regulators]

If foreigners don't want to pay too much renting condo , they should hv option of renting hdb, hdb rental is perfectly alright. The only issue i hv is foreigner owning hdb flats. Hdb should release figures on the total number of foreigner pr owning a piece of public housing meant for Singaporeans.
I feel hdb subletting is currently too loose.

Only retirees above 55yo and/or disabled/handicapped should be allowed to sublet hdb.

[Rosy]

If foreigners don't want to pay too much renting condo , they should hv option of renting hdb, hdb rental is perfectly alright. The only issue i hv is foreigner owning hdb flats. Hdb should release figures on the total number of foreigner pr owning a piece of public housing meant for Singaporeans.
Middle class expats who cannot afford mass market condo rental should not come here in the first place. They are fighting over jobs that locals can fulfil easily.

Lower skilled foreign workers should be staying in domitories or renting a room.

[Regulators]

I dont agree with u that they should only rent pte housing. Any landlord in sg is free to rent to any foreigner, whether pte or public housing coz paying full value for the pty earns them the right to do so.
Middle class expats who cannot afford mass market condo rental should not come here in the first place. They are fighting over jobs that locals can fulfil easily.

Lower skilled foreign workers should be staying in domitories or renting a room.

[princess_morbucks]

How about this:

Those who bought new HDB at subsidized price- cannot rent it out after they bought a private property unless they top up the difference in the present market valuation price.

Those who bought it from the resale market can do whatever (after MOP) they want as they did not enjoy any subsidy.

[Regulators]

MOP is already paying the price of the subsidy.
How about this:

Those who bought new HDB at subsidized price- cannot rent it out after they bought a private property unless they top up the difference in the present market valuation price.

Those who bought it from the resale market can do whatever (after MOP) they want as they did not enjoy any subsidy.

[blackjack21trader]

The current HDB system and policy is THE BEST policy.

How So ?

1) Because it created an opportunity for the majority to upgrade to private as and when they are able to.

2) Gave the retired a chance to unwind their private property and stay in HDB to either collect cash or rental.

So far, this system has worked very very well in lifting the society as a whole.

So, why the need to change it?

Try upgrading your life with your current income level in countries like USA or AUstralia without the HDB and subsidiarys. See you can do it or not.

[princess_morbucks]

MOP is already paying the price of the subsidy.

MOP is only 5 years.
In the meantime, the young couple can save up for their next target.

HDB should make MOP be 10 years for subsidized flats before they can be rented out for owners with private property.

[blackjack21trader]

The current HDB system and policy is THE BEST policy.

How So ?

1) Because it created an opportunity for the majority to upgrade to private as and when they are able to.

2) Gave the retired a chance to unwind their private property and stay in HDB to either collect cash or rental.

So far, this system has worked very very well in lifting the society as a whole.

So, why the need to change it?

Try upgrading your life with your current income level in countries like USA or AUstralia without the HDB and subsidiarys. See you can do it or not.

I already told u guys in my first ebook:

The correct path to be a multi-millionaire in Singapore looks like this:

HDB->EC->Private Condo->landed->HDB ( when retired) + cash/rental

[blackjack21trader]

I already told u guys in my first ebook:

The correct path to be a multi-millionaire in Singapore looks like this:

HDB->EC->Private Condo->landed->HDB ( when retired) + cash/rental

At present, however, the link in condo->landed has been broken.

This is due to the crazy prices of landed.

But by October, I may have another path for u guys.

[princess_morbucks]

I already told u guys in my first ebook:

The correct path to be a multi-millionaire in Singapore looks like this:

HDB->EC->Private Condo->landed->HDB ( when retired) + cash/rental

The life cycle of a self made Singaporean millionaire.
Millionaire - i agree...not multi millionaire.

[blackjack21trader]

The life cycle of a self made Singaporean millionaire.
Millionaire - i agree...not multi millionaire.

Yes, princess. And where else on Earth can you find a better place than Singapore to do it and retire gracefully, I mean for the normal Jones.

[chiaberry]

The Govt already hinted there may be a separate class of HDB with stricter regulations (? cannot sublet ? cannot sell to open market, only back to hdb....). But they also hinted that current owners not affected (to allow our retirees to continue depending on their hdb rentals as part of their retirement fund).

Don't shoot your future generations in the foot but advocating HDB to have such stringent conditions that prices will not appreciate. Who would want to buy a non-appreciating "asset"?

[yowetan]

Let there be crash.

[chiaberry]

Yes, princess. And where else on Earth can you find a better place than Singapore to do it and retire gracefully, I mean for the normal Jones.

I agree with the handsome brother here.

The average Joe in other countries tend to have a tough time when they retire.

Singaporeans don't realize how fortunate they are. Please open eyes big-big, travel to other countries and see how they live. Don't hang around on your butt here and complain, complain.......:mad:

[chiaberry]

Let there be crash.

Hello, you have a lot to lose if they change hdb rules to not allowing sublettings of whole house. Your families' 3 big (and valuable) hdbs??? :eek: They will be affected no?

[yowetan]

Hello, you have a lot to lose if they change hdb rules to not allowing sublettings of whole house. Your families' 3 big (and valuable) hdbs??? :eek: They will be affected no?

Hi...you got a point. I almost forgotten I am heavily in debt.

[rymccondo77]

Hi...you got a point. I almost forgotten I am heavily in debt.


So no more talk of crashes from you! A Crash will affect you badly in your current situation!!

[radha08]

How about this:

Those who bought new HDB at subsidized price- cannot rent it out after they bought a private property unless they top up the difference in the present market valuation price.

Those who bought it from the resale market can do whatever (after MOP) they want as they did not enjoy any subsidy.

yes i vote princess to be next housing minister:D:D:D

[rymccondo77]

The current HDB system and policy is THE BEST policy.

How So ?

1) Because it created an opportunity for the majority to upgrade to private as and when they are able to.

2) Gave the retired a chance to unwind their private property and stay in HDB to either collect cash or rental.

So far, this system has worked very very well in lifting the society as a whole.

So, why the need to change it?

Try upgrading your life with your current income level in countries like USA or AUstralia without the HDB and subsidiarys. See you can do it or not.

(i) The housing policies that we have are not perfect - don't think any housing policy is. By and large Singapore's housing policies have helped provide a roof over our heads. Tweak / improve them if necessary - e.g. BTOs for singles.

(ii) Think in future, we will need retirement villages (of HDB flats / mixed developments) as the population grows older / people live longer and families become smaller (i.e. people having lesser children).

[august]

Is hdb your father, telling u where u should stay, eat, shit n relax? :doh:

You hv forgotten onefundamental freedom as a human being under the universal declaration of human rights, and that is people should be move wherever thet want to.

if u happen to own a HDB, then yes HDB is your father who can tell u what u can or cannot do with your HDB. :D

[timmy]

Let there be crash.

Usually those who bought property will not hope for a crash. Unless u bluff all of us about your mount senile purchase?

[Simi]

Maybe HDB should consider allowing PC owner to buy HDB for own stay without selling off their PC once they reach a certain age, (retire age) say 55 ~ 62yrs old.

The retired can then have income from renting out their PC

[flxcat]

Maybe HDB should consider allowing PC owner to buy HDB for own stay without selling off their PC once they reach a certain age, (retire age) say 55 ~ 62yrs old.

The retired can then have income from renting out their PC

Hmm... those younger families aspire to stay in condo can sell their current HDB to fellow seniors and buy back at a later stage when they do not really need to pool, BBQ as a lifestyle for their young family members. So nice.

However, those family that can afoord both HDB and condo are always welcome to stay in their HDB (singaporean's right :D ) and rent out their condo as a passive income.

HDB can then reign in the HDB whole unit rental such that HDB is only for own stay, unless special cases, and HDB price can be maintained and not fall. :)

Or more fairer, Singaporean owning condo should allow to buy resales HDB flat but only for own stay. This is a personal choice if they wish to stay in a more cost effective housing option.

Super like it :cool:

[lionhill]

this forum allows me to see how mean most people are.

The gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger, imposing more constraints on HDB, say, selling HDB back to the government, topping up the difference between bto and the market price, will make the gap even bigger.

As old Lee said, not only the rich can enjoy the fortune increment, the poor should also share a pitiful portion, right?

[Simi]

Hmm... those younger families aspire to stay in condo can sell their current HDB to fellow seniors and buy back at a later stage when they do not really need to pool, BBQ as a lifestyle for their young family members. So nice.

However, those family that can afoord both HDB and condo are always welcome to stay in their HDB (singaporean's right :D ) and rent out their condo as a passive income.

HDB can then reign in the HDB whole unit rental such that HDB is only for own stay, unless special cases, and HDB price can be maintained and not fall. :)

Or more fairer, Singaporean owning condo should allow to buy resales HDB flat but only for own stay. This is a personal choice if they wish to stay in a more cost effective housing option.

Super like it :cool:

You are right

The key word is ONLY for OWN STAY

then the retired can then have the fruits of their labour by collecting PASSIVE INCOME from their PC or PCs

Isn't this what we are working for all our LIFE ?

This plan will be very helpful to those who started their married life and have children late. They will have a steady continuous income to support their family and children expenses instead of relying on cpf pay out which is not sufficient

[princess_morbucks]

this forum allows me to see how mean most people are.

The gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger, imposing more constraints on HDB, say, selling HDB back to the government, topping up the difference between bto and the market price, will make the gap even bigger.

As old Lee said, not only the rich can enjoy the fortune increment, the poor should also share a pitiful portion, right?

We are not being mean.
We are just suggesting ideas to help keep the price affordable for the new generation and those who can only afford public housing.
Those who are mean are those who don't need the hdb flat but use it to generate income and in the process push the price sky high.

[yuppieboy]

Common sense tells you that it will not worked. If HDB cannot rent out, then where can you expect those current foreign blue collar and low wage workers stay at while working in Singapore. Don't tell me these people can only stay in private. Ridiculous...

[relax88]

just implement 1 rule......HDB cannot be rented out....price, will go down and helping the rest of the poorer citizens get their first home;)

[lionhill]

We are not being mean.
We are just suggesting ideas to help keep the price affordable for the new generation and those who can only afford public housing.
Those who are mean are those who don't need the hdb flat but use it to generate income and in the process push the price sky high.
No offence to anyone. I am aiming at the viewpoints in stead of the person.

Maybe, I should soften my wording to that "some suggestions are not viable", in this case.

In my opinion, the main culprit of the high HDB price is the inflation and strong demand instead of the minority who hold both HDB and PCs.

Just image, if the neighboring PCs are sold at 1.5M, can you expect the HDB to remain at the price of 300k?

In my opinion, the government allows whole HDB units to be rented out not only to increase the income of these HDB holders, another reason is that there are many people having to rent HDBs, some are expats, some are locals.

another reason young people cannot afford HDB is that the majority of the wealth are at the hand of a small group of rich people. The rate of salary increment of the ordinary working people is far lower than the rate of wealth increment of the rich. An ugly fact is the rich is exploiting the poor via the power of wealth at their hand.

[flxcat]

Common sense tells you that it will not worked. If HDB cannot rent out, then where can you expect those current foreign blue collar and low wage workers stay at while working in Singapore. Don't tell me these people can only stay in private. Ridiculous...

Well I probably over exaggrating at this point in time.

Let's be mindful that as reported in the news, 1H of this year alone there is 14K new whole HDB rental application,compared with ~40K HDB flat rented out as of end last year.
Question is, will there be more HDB whole flat rent out applications next couple of years, where there is a sharp increase of PC(especially in OCR) TOP-ing, which reported are bought by upgraders?

Going with the very token of common sense you have shared and do sound logical (hard side of the implementation), however, if more of the foreign blue collar workers going to rent our HDB flats and with many bunked into one apartment, will it impact of social fabric, living quality(soft side of the effect)? You likely will think what a xenopohbic person talking.

Same same, imagine there is no dorms for construction workers, and HDB flats are extended to be rented out to this group, what will become of our neighbourhood? Probably our government knows very well of the impact hence the building of dorms for this group of foreign bluye collar workers.

In fact, to certain extend I felt many know very well they definitely do not like such arrangement where blue collar workers are living next door, hence since there is such a "sure win" opportunity granted by HDB, many will naturally choose the path of, I don't see it I don't care attitude, and staying away in their nice PC away from the impact and focus on seeing their wealth growth.

Well you have your opinion and I do respect, just my very own observation, and do sound ridiculous to some :D

[Violinbite]

Common sense tells you that it will not worked. If HDB cannot rent out, then where can you expect those current foreign blue collar and low wage workers stay at while working in Singapore. Don't tell me these people can only stay in private. Ridiculous...

I agree at this single point. Many have mentioned on HDB as subsidized flat. We look at affordability of housing as key for the poor or just started carreer and family. We don't mean not to concern about their issue totally. To provide them affordable BTO as key. - Government through all the ABSD alone these few years also chalk up at least $500mil (1/2 billion) if not wrong from PCs transactions, there are funds (from affluent PCs buyers) aside from taxes.

In 1960s, majority are looking to have a roof when Singapore got independence, there HDB comes as a good help for most of us. But as society moving up, out of prosperity and prudent hard work, many who own these HDBs also prosper and bought PCs. - (more than 70% PCs buyer are SINGAPOREANS).
In today macro context, 'subsidized' is not a word for most who OWNED it previously, but is a word more those who yet to buy their FIRST HDB.
Certainly, no one can offer a price of $7000 'subsidized' 3-bedroom Queenstown HDB flat of the 1960s to current generation to be consider 'subsidized', right?
It is still the 1st time buyer has their view on 'subsidized'.

In my other thread, my neighbour bought his HDB 4A resale at around $300+k. Having 3 children, man at early 50s not working (changing jobs till gave up), wife working in admin. he rented 2 rooms for $1500 to 4 PRCs. Pretty squeezy, but to banned HDB rental entirely is devastating to them. Man can work choose not to work, social issue rather poor/rich issue or subsidized issue.

A general small remark: My parents generation use to say, if we old cannot work, you kids next time supplement some income from your work pay. My side of thought: give the best and prepare and supply for the next generation, don't expect them to contribute to our own retirement. - I think mindset has change much these days as society move up.
Prudent parents will need to educate their next generations on financial prudence. I tried to share this to family but sad some still in old 'mindset' to remain in their comfort zone..

[Regulators]

Telling a person whether he should or should not live in the hdb after buying is too extreme. It is controlling a person' s right to privacy n freedom of movement. If ppl buy a car in sg, should govt force ppl to use their cars as well just because they pay rd tax n insurance? If hdb owners dont live in their flats n rent out , they are maximising use of their flats by 1) getting an income stream n 2) providing housing for needy foreigners who are on a tight budget. There is a dual benefit to renting out hdb.
if u happen to own a HDB, then yes HDB is your father who can tell u what u can or cannot do with your HDB. :D

[Violinbite]

Telling a person whether he should or should not live in the hdb after buying is too extreme. It is controlling a person' s right to privacy n freedom of movement. If ppl buy a car in sg, should govt force ppl to use their cars as well just because they pay rd tax n insurance? If hdb owners dont live in their flats n rent out , they are maximising use of their flats by 1) getting an income stream n 2) providing housing for needy foreigners who are on a tight budget. There is a dual benefit to renting out hdb.

Agree to that simple statement too. Furthermore, a bulk of the PCs owner just use that rentals to cover mortgage for the next house. It's not even for their retirement expenses.

[phantom_opera]

by now, the 'change of policies' should be known already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2BWlzATyE

those hoping for "free lunches" are going to be disappointed ... Mr Heng already hinting liao

[phantom_opera]

this forum allows me to see how mean most people are.

The gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger and bigger, imposing more constraints on HDB, say, selling HDB back to the government, topping up the difference between bto and the market price, will make the gap even bigger.

As old Lee said, not only the rich can enjoy the fortune increment, the poor should also share a pitiful portion, right?

unfortunately the "free lunch" advocates do not understand how Singapore style managed capitalism works ... Mr Heng already said that we share property wealth such that there are fewer tycoons

if HDB cannot sell cannot rent must return to HDB, it can be cheap but sooner or later many will kpkb again why rich ppl can stay in condos and why they cannot monetize HDBs to upgrade to stay in condos

so I think there will be minor changes, probably extend MOP to 10y or 70LH for BTOs

70LH has less "property wealth sharing" is probably th best

many ppl forget that when they reach 55, some might need to pledge their property to CPF, if HDB is not an asset, it will not work

[Mo gu]

To me my old hdb have great sentimental value. Currently renting out. It is a dream I achieved with rental income for my pc mortgage . One day I would hope I can stay back in my hdb when old and rent out my pc. For a good retirement.

Is that wrong?

[august]

No offence to anyone. I am aiming at the viewpoints in stead of the person.

Maybe, I should soften my wording to that "some suggestions are not viable", in this case.

In my opinion, the main culprit of the high HDB price is the inflation and strong demand instead of the minority who hold both HDB and PCs.

Just image, if the neighboring PCs are sold at 1.5M, can you expect the HDB to remain at the price of 300k?

In my opinion, the government allows whole HDB units to be rented out not only to increase the income of these HDB holders, another reason is that there are many people having to rent HDBs, some are expats, some are locals.

another reason young people cannot afford HDB is that the majority of the wealth are at the hand of a small group of rich people. The rate of salary increment of the ordinary working people is far lower than the rate of wealth increment of the rich. An ugly fact is the rich is exploiting the poor via the power of wealth at their hand.

the relaxing of subletting rules of whole HDB flats began in 2003 and reached its peak in 2009 before an initial tightening in 2010. The period coincided with the under-building of new HDB flats resulting in under supply. So no, it is not the intention of govt "to increase the income of these HDB holders" as u put it. It is the govt's intention to push up land prices.

[Violinbite]

To me my old hdb have great sentimental value. Currently renting out. It is a dream I achieved with rental income for my pc mortgage . One day I would hope I can stay back in my hdb when old and rent out my pc. For a good retirement.

Is that wrong?

Nothing wrong certainly. Many think the same way. Enjoy your fruits for the meantime to the fullest.

[henryhk]

I tink only old folks without income and people working overseas then can rent.....tat should be reasonable.....how can we encourage young people to misuse hdb and use it to make $.....tis is wrong values.....I don't wish tis shit hole to get bigger!

[Pug]

This discussion reminds me of how self-centered and jealous our fellow citizens can be - especially those who were born with a silver spoon; and those who are not, but have been luckier than their peers along the way. :doh:

[mcmlxxvi]

The hdb flat value proposition and investment potential should be preserved as it forms the support base of pc prices and the bedrock of ordinary citizen wealth.

This can be achieved with controlled appreciation of capital value by tight demand-supply regulation, regardless of rentability. Subletting of rooms is morally intact in cases of retirees with needs. Subletting of whole flat without reason is not, in view of the fact that it is public housing heavily subsidized by everyman money.

If capital appreciation controls are difficult due to fluctuating demand supply dynamics, introduce differentiated products to cater to different purchasing power. That would be your 70LH and longer MOP options.

[lajia]

not sure if I got you right but I observed that many who are born with silver spoon do not appreciate the process of many middle income class who work their way up and be able to upgrade to condo and be able to get passive income from their HDB. many not being objective when they say why should HDB be allowed to be sublet, be appreciated to such a high price an so on...
in the very very beginning, the concept of HDB is correct. to provide shelter as well as an appreciating asset!

> would you buy a 4 rm flat at 200K from BTO and then 20 yrs later still at 200k or lesser? would it make more sense to ask garment to built and rent you at say 1k/mth, each year only 120K and 20yrs only 240k?? you can then be able to better manage the opportunity cost of the lump sum for downpayment and so on...

> if HDB is not a stepping stone (as it was meant to be), would there be so many upgraders? will our PC price appreciate like today and be so dynamic? the answer is NO!

> If HDB cannot be sublet, garmen has to think of how to house those FT who would want to bring their family over, or even those not bringing, they are also looking at cheaper alternative to PC. This can be a major challenge in terms of being able to attract certain skilled worker or FT to come here. Then, this is one more problem for them if there is no rental flats from HDB...

> currently HDB is already having a good concept if they can keep BTO delink from resale, make it low and then built more to provide help to those lower income group, if these group of ppl is being helped, wouldn't this be enough?? what's more??

sometimes the problem is just that simple but because of two different group of #@**??// ppl around who cry father cry mother, those who want to have more free lunch and, those who are jealous about those having free lunch and they themselves not able to enjoy....

keep complaining that price is high, why, because they want to buy redhill and not woodland....why, because want to buy 200k now and then expect to sell 400k....

we should help those lower income group. this is where the policies should be tweaked!!!

and since the BTO is delink from the resale mrkt, use MOP and also tax to tie those cry father cry mother group down so that they cannot sell or rent so easily with such huge subsidies. if providing shelter is their upmost objective, then they should not complain further...

no offense...:2cents: we cannot penalise those who work hard for their dream!



This discussion reminds me of how self-centered and jealous our fellow citizens can be - especially those who were born with a silver spoon; and those who are not, but have been luckier than their peers along the way. :doh:

[hyenergix]

With 80% population owning HDB and using it for upgrading, it could be very risky at the next election to rock the boat. If the units were to be returned to HDB, HDB would have to set up a big department just to manage the re-circulation of units back to the market. MPs will have to be involved if complaints arise why some people get the choice units while some people don't, and there will be another SG Conversation what is the fair market price to sell back to HDB. It will open a very big can of worms.

[Mo gu]

It is the attitude of life that define it and how hard u willingly to work to achieve ur dream. I never ever though I could ever stay in pc. During studying I am going door by door to get jobs to fund my fee and living. It is pure survival. Until now I am turely appreciative that I can upgrade.

But I do Admit the public housing price is high. Maybe govt can give more grants to those really in need. Think the key word is to strike a balance. Either extreme sides will rock the entire boat as a whole.

[henryhk]

It is the attitude of life that define it and how hard u willingly to work to achieve ur dream. I never ever though I could ever stay in pc. During studying I am going door by door to get jobs to fund my fee and living. It is pure survival. Until now I am turely appreciative that I can upgrade.

But I do Admit the public housing price is high. Maybe govt can give more grants to those really in need. Think the key word is to strike a balance. Either extreme sides will rock the entire boat as a whole.
They need to be proactive rather than reactive to people's needs.....all these years housing policy are reactive to demand, complaints and land sales, ...... Till now I still don't know how they plan for the next generation...how they manage pricing...

[star]

Do u all notice something? Most attended our national conversation are those kpkb people and those missed the boat. Did anyone with Hdb and PC or PC attend? It is those complain voices that they hearing and it may not be a good gauge.

[flxcat]

Do u all notice something? Most attended our national conversation are those kpkb people and those missed the boat. Did anyone with Hdb and PC or PC attend? It is those complain voices that they hearing and it may not be a good gauge.

Do you happen to have the profile of the OSC attendees? Can share share? :D

[relax88]

Just ban hdb from being rented out will do

The rest market will adjust itself:D

[Regulators]

You probably belong to one of these categories:

1) hdb flat owner n resident with only one pty who look at your neighbours renting n collecting passive income with envy.

2) condo owner with only one pty who has missed hdb boat n can only look at hdb owners enjoying high rental yield with envy.

:D


Just ban hdb from being rented out will do

The rest market will adjust itself:D

[relax88]

None of the above...just a guy going to apply for hdb and would like my future residences not turn into a ft getto:D

[radha08]

None of the above...just a guy going to apply for hdb and would like my future residences not turn into a ft getto:D

your whole country has turned into one so enjoy it:cool:

[relax88]

I know ,, but out of 1 million household only 40000 unit rented out..

so pap know who to please:D

[Violinbite]

I know ,, but out of 1 million household only 40000 unit rented out..

so pap know who to please:D

Maybe out of 960,000 that didnt rent out only you alone complained, then is 1 against 40,000. Haha:-) So govt will still consider the 40,000

[Regulators]

When u hv progressed in life n can afford to buy a pc n keep ur hdb, u will sing a different tune. You must always look long term n leave some road for yourself. If hdb can only be bought n not rented , it becomes an expensive n useless piece of investment.
None of the above...just a guy going to apply for hdb and would like my future residences not turn into a ft getto:D

[relax88]

Maybe out of 960,000 that didnt rent out only you alone complained, then is 1 against 40,000. Haha:-) So govt will still consider the 40,000


relax lar, what floats your boats is fine by me:D
s
you might be right, you might be wrong.

since garmen says, he will address housing issue tonight.

lets just enjoy the ride:)

chill man, what will come will come . not like what we talk here will change anything

[Violinbite]

When u hv progressed in life n can afford to buy a pc n keep ur hdb, u will sing a different tune. You must always look long term n leave some road for yourself. If hdb can only be bought n not rented , it becomes an expensive n useless piece of investment.

Agree. But there are always some group that stayed contented and does not want to move up in lifestyle or furthering wealth growth. These group will view the well to do ones as greedy, on the other hand, the investment savvy one will view these people as not financially prudent or lazy. The war between the two groups never ends. Just a note for those against HDB rentals - please dont assume one sidedly that only rich people do renting, many poorer groups or handicaps also do renting to survive. Its their only help for sacrificing their rooms availability.

[henryhk]

I tink alot of hdb owners who rent their units are worried about tonight's PM message, this shows tat they heavily depend on this source of income for them to own pte..... if tis problem is not addressed now and properly, i fear for the worst next time....

[Violinbite]

relax lar, what floats your boats is fine by me:D
s
you might be right, you might be wrong.

since garmen says, he will address housing issue tonight.

lets just enjoy the ride:)

chill man, what will come will come . not like what we talk here will change anything

True and certain la.. But given the best scenario for your case to happen, most owning two properties at worst come back to old HDB to stay and unlikely to sell their extra property, market then will not crash. In fact, they may get better rentals from PCs rental.

[relax88]

keep it down mate:D

[Regulators]

I think hdb flats will be aplenty for locals if only prs are restricted from owning public housing altogether n can only buy pc. If u check how many prs own hdb n do not live in it, u will get a shock. I know of prs who live in their own country n rent their hdb flats for passive income in the past. For Singaporeans to rent out hdb flats for income , that is our birth right but not for foreigners.


Agree. But there are always some group that stayed contented and does not want to move up in lifestyle or furthering wealth growth. These group will view the well to do ones as greedy, on the other hand, the investment savvy one will view these people as not financially prudent or lazy. The war between the two groups never ends. Just a note for those against HDB rentals - please dont assume one sidedly that only rich people do renting, many poorer groups or handicaps also do renting to survive. Its their only help for sacrificing their rooms availability.

[taggy]

I think hdb flats will be aplenty for locals if only prs are restricted from owning public housing altogether n can only buy pc. If u check how many prs own hdb n do not live in it, u will get a shock. I know of prs who live in their own country n rent their hdb flats for passive income in the past. For Singaporeans to rent out hdb flats for income , that is our birth right but not for foreigners.

I thought pr cannot rent out their Hdb liao.

[Regulators]

That is why i mentioned the past. Before gahmen step in , pr earn like seow liao
I thought pr cannot rent out their Hdb liao.

[taggy]

Lhl: 明天你是否依然爱我
:D :D :D

[Violinbite]

Nothing mentioned on what we widely talk about rentals by PM. Govt gauranteed all Singaporean can certainly buy and afford HDB.

[leesg123]

Status quo, more subsidies for those kpkb lower middle class. Soon 4rm flat may no longer be enough and want a pc.

[lajia]

as expected, more help to lower income earners to buy a hdb, delink BTO price to ensure affordability! everyone will continue to have a HOME and also an appreciating asset!
:)


Nothing mentioned on what we widely talk about rentals by PM. Govt gauranteed all Singaporean can certainly buy and afford HDB.

[taggy]

None of the above...just a guy going to apply for hdb and would like my future residences not turn into a ft getto:D

er....unless ur household income less than 4k, nothing change, u can go apply ur bto as planned :D

[henryhk]

I tink I like tat about taking care of singaporeans huge medical bills...

[relax88]

On lar....I go apply for the 4 bed room:D

[Violinbite]

Status quo, more subsidies for those kpkb lower middle class. Soon 4rm flat may no longer be enough and want a pc.

PM mentioned new 4rm flat around $285000 and hailed as 'affordable' by todays standard with income of $4k. House is certainly smaller than older flats 4A that i bought in 2000. I paid my resale HDB 4A during my time at $271000 (new BTO around $180k back then). Household salary also around $4K. Though i never recall my monthly mortgage at $900+ a month.

Hopefully this comparison give a rough guide what is a new norm of affordability, as these mention on north-east zone flat.

[BigBoy]

Though i never recall my monthly mortgage at $900+ a month.
It's based on 25 years loan, thats why.

[jslee78]

as expected, more help to lower income earners to buy a hdb, delink BTO price to ensure affordability! everyone will continue to have a HOME and also an appreciating asset!
:)
New development at Changni announced to prepare singapore to scale newer height. Relocation of paya lebah airport to free up more land for housing. Keeping HDB as both home and asset by means of more $ grant. The underlying message is that the price of property asset will be supported by the biggest landlord for the interest of singaporean.

[flxcat]

removed duplicated post

[flxcat]

After NDR, I finally got the reason why HDB whole flat renting will not scale back, and might even be a planned approach by our government to cater for the need of more foreign workers which will be increase albeit at slower rate.

Well, guess will have to embrace as it is a necessary evil for a bigger cause.:)

[Violinbite]

New development at Changni announced to prepare singapore to scale newer height. Relocation of paya lebah airport to free up more land for housing. Keeping HDB as both home and asset by means of more $ grant. The underlying message is that the price of property asset will be supported by the biggest landlord for the interest of singaporean.

Looks like there plenty of dynamics and possiblity the govt can manuover around about BTO or resale HDB housing market supply, maybe none of us should be overly concerned.
1) Control new BTO price for all 1st timer Singaporean or younger couple
2) Possibly REITized if over supply occurs, not forgetting a future 6.9mil population
3) Resale HDB market for retirees downgrading. Cashing out and can still afford to pay off everything
4) Since older flats are usually larger and at more developed area. The new 2 or 3 bedrooms buyers of today can upgrade to these as well.
5) Since population ageing, married age delayed. Govt can also consider 70yrs leasehold for newer flat, as some couples might not want any kids. Shorter lease can do. Thus pricing will go through a change to adapt new 'affordability' level
6) Eventually, who knows, govt might just focus attention to utilized housing land for 1st timer Singaporean and not so much on upgraders, and the remaining land go thru GLS. Thus provide middle class that can afford in future, to buy a 2nd property. If not enough land bank for new BTO, they can always en-bloc very old HDB. Anyway, ageing population means more old flats available next time.

So much more to possibilties on how govt can play with the HDB isue. We cant see everything, but I think they are far able to anticipate. Have to salute them. .:)

[moneytalk]

After NDR, I finally got the reason why HDB whole flat renting will not scale back, and might even be a planned approach by our government to cater for the need of more foreign workers which will be increase albeit at slower rate.

Well, guess will have to embrace as it is a necessary evil for a bigger cause.:)

The government has now lay a path for young Singaporeans to create wealth. Start off with a BTO and fulfil the MOP. If resources permit, invest in another property for passive income. If you so decide to live in private housing, be free to rent out your HDB. In this way the government is meeting the Singaporeans' aspirations of becoming landlords.

[Violinbite]

The government has now lay a path for young Singaporeans to create wealth. Start off with a BTO and fulfil the MOP. If resources permit, invest in another property for passive income. If you so decide to live in private housing, be free to rent out your HDB. In this way the government is meeting the Singaporeans' aspirations of becoming landlords.

Nothing further from this truth. Though the govt have to keep mum about property imvestment as not to offend the low income group. Start teaching our own kids about investing prudency as early as possible is a key for us parents. It is the hint that they probably want to leave behind about HDB BTOs. Those who know they can afford a second property might just want to go for a 2 or 3 bedrooms BTO first since theynare a lot cheaper by margin, buy a PC next time and rent out BTO. Those cannot afford at least can still have a chance to upgrade to 4 or 5 bedrooms flat, rent out individual rooms as source of income as well. - thus the 2-3 bedrooms flat are cheap in anyway as a good stepping stone for property wealth building. :-) jiayou to all young ones. Be diligent and perservering:-) congrats to all those who gotten their new BTOs.

[flxcat]

Looks like there plenty of dynamics and possiblity the govt can manuover around about BTO or resale HDB housing market supply, maybe none of us should be overly concerned.
1) Control new BTO price for all 1st timer Singaporean or younger couple
2) Possibly REITized if over supply occurs, not forgetting a future 6.9mil population
3) Resale HDB market for retirees downgrading. Cashing out and can still afford to pay off everything
4) Since older flats are usually larger and at more developed area. The new 2 or 3 bedrooms buyers of today can upgrade to these as well.
5) Since population ageing, married age delayed. Govt can also consider 70yrs leasehold for newer flat, as some couples might not want any kids. Shorter lease can do. Thus pricing will go through a change to adapt new 'affordability' level
6) Eventually, who knows, govt might just focus attention to utilized housing land for 1st timer Singaporean and not so much on upgraders, and the remaining land go thru GLS. Thus provide middle class that can afford in future, to buy a 2nd property. If not enough land bank for new BTO, they can always en-bloc very old HDB. Anyway, ageing population means more old flats available next time.

So much more to possibilties on how govt can play with the HDB isue. We cant see everything, but I think they are far able to anticipate. Have to salute them. .:)

Well let's go with the flow. As least is still better off to have more happy citizens.

Not to be critical, however, government will likely have to face this as an more imminent issue, say in 2016 when HDB whole flat rental had became a bigger social issue that warrant their attention.

Now I agreed solving the BTO flat affordability takes centre stage. :)

[Violinbite]

Well let's go with the flow. As least is still better off to have more happy citizens.

Not to be critical, however, government will likely have to face this as an more imminent issue, say in 2016 when HDB whole flat rental had became a bigger social issue that warrant their attention.

Now I agreed solving the BTO flat affordability takes centre stage. :)

Lets not take 'worry' as centrestage as our lives too:-) but happiness at present, plan along to our best. If govt cant take care housing issue, what can individual really do? But i must encourage younger generations to seriously think about setting up family and have CHILDREN. Singaporeans like to complain to many foreigners, but do not want to have kids. Pursue many individual rights and dreams and career is not all wrong, but think a bigger picture: if one is not born and rear up, where are the individuals? If one is not alive, where are dreams to be? If there is not enough HUMAN going around, how can one even think of a profitable and viable career?

I wish to have more kids but cant as my wife had twice ectopic pregnancy. Stuck at one.

[moneytalk]

I wish to have more kids but cant as my wife had twice ectopic pregnancy. Stuck at one.
I am sorry to hear of your wife's ectopic pregnancies.:( All is not lost if you are determined to have another child. How about IVF?
There are a few fertility specialists who are very well-known for their good results.Treatment is co-funded by government and you can use medisave for govt and private hospitals.

[chiaberry]

I am sorry to hear of your wife's ectopic pregnancies.:( All is not lost if you are determined to have another child. How about IVF?
There are a few fertility specialists who are very well-known for their good results.Treatment is co-funded by government and you can use medisave for govt and private hospitals.

Agree.

You can consider trying. Or else might regret later on.

It is quite lonely being an only child. It is good to have siblings.

[flxcat]

Lets not take 'worry' as centrestage as our lives too:-) but happiness at present, plan along to our best. If govt cant take care housing issue, what can individual really do? But i must encourage younger generations to seriously think about setting up family and have CHILDREN. Singaporeans like to complain to many foreigners, but do not want to have kids. Pursue many individual rights and dreams and career is not all wrong, but think a bigger picture: if one is not born and rear up, where are the individuals? If one is not alive, where are dreams to be? If there is not enough HUMAN going around, how can one even think of a profitable and viable career?

I wish to have more kids but cant as my wife had twice ectopic pregnancy. Stuck at one.

Agreed, 船到桥头 自然直

You have a kind heart and with medical advancement, you will be blessed one way or another :)

[Violinbite]

Agreed, 船到桥头 自然直

You have a kind heart and with medical advancement, you will be blessed one way or another :)

Thanks for you guys for encouragement:-) My current toddler is an IVF child indeed already. It is a miracle child as well to deem it. It is a family testimony in many ways.

I was married in year 2000 at 28, wife a year older. We plan for kids as early as 2003, but was difficult somehow. In 2005, my wife conceived but the 1st ectopic robbed her joy, not very long in less than a year, the 2nd ectopic striked. We tried IVF subsequently in few months time but was in vain. She was devastated as deem for barreness. My dad was disappointed with her though not her fault.
In 2007, a friend happened to brought us to church, the pastor happened to preached on children as a gift from God. It changed our mentality at the point thinking the God has 'chastened' us not giving us a child, so we took up the faith to believe for a child again. The wait was really a testing one, it took 3.5year. Its not a super long time, but to engage a faith this manner to believe for a child as a miracle was not easy.
Quite a few around us had dreams and visions seeing us having children. We were hopeful. Till in year 2008, my faith got a little directionless for the wait. My wife insisted
to expect a miracle to happen but not doing anything. We cant agree anything and often have some arguments over it... One morning, while in a simple prayer, a question was prompted within me asking: 'Son do you WANT A CHILD or you want just to SEE A MIRACLE?' I understood an answer was wrapped up in the question. - We wanted a child, as miracle is just a mean to an end. I shared this with my wife and truly for the first time we had an agreement over everything.
During the IVF season, we had many negative reports: no response to hormone jabs, very few ovum produced. The head of IVF gynae even cross examined the whole procedure and discouraged us from finishing the entire procedure, deeming it as 'impossible' probability. My wife was convinced to give up and would not bulge. Indeed I surrendered it to the final point only to remember it was God's leading and not to see a man's word as final say. With this I gave her a short consolation and reminder - to my surprise and miracle, she changed her mind 180 degrees, determined to finish the whole procedure. (It was almost not possible to persuade her that moment, but I m not sure how she just changed her mind in a twinkling, which later she felt puzzled as well). The rest is history:-) Even the gynae himself deem it a miracle for the outcome.

I really hope she once more willing to take another try on the same path, though I need to respect her that its her body afterall.:-) who knows a miracle may really happened again:-)

[Khng8]

Good sharing.
Many people think that child birth is like opening the tap. You have it when you want it. Maybe for some people.
The earlier one start, the better the chances.

[Violinbite]

Good sharing.
Many people think that child birth is like opening the tap. You have it when you want it. Maybe for some people.
The earlier one start, the better the chances.

Nothing further from the truth. Children is indeed a gift. My sis in fact being healthy except overweight. She had a daughter and wanted another one, tried IVF too but failed too. I heard the success rate is approx. 10-15% only. Some young couples plan and prepared for parenting thinking of getting ready for everything, usually this take up much time. Parenting is an ongoing process that experience is added along the way, really.. Cant overly spend time planning.. We actually wasted three years thinking and planning from 2000-2003.

[rymccondo77]

Nothing further from the truth. Children is indeed a gift. My sis in fact being healthy except overweight. She had a daughter and wanted another one, tried IVF too but failed too. I heard the success rate is approx. 10-15% only. Some young couples plan and prepared for parenting thinking of getting ready for everything, usually this take up much time. Parenting is an ongoing process that experience is added along the way, really.. Cant overly spend time planning.. We actually wasted three years thinking and planning from 2000-2003.

Every child one has is a blessing and a gift :)

[chiaberry]

Nothing further from the truth. Children is indeed a gift. My sis in fact being healthy except overweight. She had a daughter and wanted another one, tried IVF too but failed too. I heard the success rate is approx. 10-15% only. Some young couples plan and prepared for parenting thinking of getting ready for everything, usually this take up much time. Parenting is an ongoing process that experience is added along the way, really.. Cant overly spend time planning.. We actually wasted three years thinking and planning from 2000-2003.

Thank you for sharing. And congrats to you and your wife. You have truly been blessed. We underestimate the physical and mental ordeal of the couple going through IVF especially the woman.

And yes, youngsters these days think that time is on their side and they can enjoy life or build career first. However, we cannot assume that conceiving and giving birth will go smoothly. And leaving it too late may be detrimental to their chances of parenthood.

[kane]

wow, that's great sharing on family planning and the gift of a miracle. slightly OT but i think it's great for young couples to ponder over, especially when they prefer to put the roof over their head before the child.

[mcmlxxvi]

With the multitude of 卖淫是吗 (miasms) i suffer from throughout my life, all inherited and incurable, i often wish i was never born!!!

Having a child is indeed a gift. Having a healthy child then is a real blessing. Treasure and nurture it well.

(In Hahnemann's words ,"the true natural chronic diseases are those that arise from a chronic miasm, when left to themselves, improper treatment, go on to increase, growing worse and torment the patient to the end of his life." - 78 Organon)

[moneytalk]

We plan for kids as early as 2003, but was difficult somehow.
When a couple struggles with infertility, the wife has it worse. Her self-worth plummets as she feels like a huge disappointment to hubby and his family. Your wife had gone through a lot of mental anguish and physical pain, do cherish her.

Now that God's gift is in your house, treasure this gem and bring him up well.

Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but it will only happen in God's timing. This is one of my favourite quotes:

You don't choose your family. They are God's gift to you, as you are to them.
Desmond Tutu


:violins:bite, you are so honest and your heartfelt sharing really touched us. You are very endearing indeed!

However, this is a public forum and you had already shared so much personal details with us, please don't reveal any more personal information that can be used to identify you.

[yowetan]

When a couple struggles with infertility, the wife has it worse. Her self-worth plummets as she feels like a huge disappointment to hubby and his family. Your wife had gone through a lot of mental anguish and physical pain, do cherish her.

Now that God's gift is in your house, treasure this gem and bring him up well.

Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but it will only happen in God's timing. This is one of my favourite quotes:

You don't choose your family. They are God's gift to you, as you are to them.
Desmond Tutu


:violins:bite, you are so honest and your heartfelt sharing really touched us. You are very endearing indeed!

However, this is a public forum and you had already shared so much personal details with us, please don't reveal any more personal information that can be used to identify you.

This is why I house all of my family members under ONE roof.

[Violinbite]

When a couple struggles with infertility, the wife has it worse. Her self-worth plummets as she feels like a huge disappointment to hubby and his family. Your wife had gone through a lot of mental anguish and physical pain, do cherish her.

Now that God's gift is in your house, treasure this gem and bring him up well.

Do I believe in miracles? Yes, but it will only happen in God's timing. This is one of my favourite quotes:

You don't choose your family. They are God's gift to you, as you are to them.
Desmond Tutu


:violins:bite, you are so honest and your heartfelt sharing really touched us. You are very endearing indeed!

However, this is a public forum and you had already shared so much personal details with us, please don't reveal any more personal information that can be used to identify you.

Hi moneytalk,

Thanks so much for your kind advise and my wife appreciate your thought for a woman.:-)
Indeed, our boy is a great joy that one really need to 'jump into the water' of parenthood to appreciate it. Hey, very nice icon too, its funny! :-)