View Full Version : SSD turning 3
Come Aug 2013, SSD will turn 3 years old, which mean the first batch of affected properties will be free to sell in the market without penalty.
Will we see a sudden surge in resale supply in the coming months? Will this create and overhang in supply hence depressing the resale price further?
thomaspaine
20-05-13, 01:14
[QUOTE=Ringo33]Come Aug 2013, SSD will turn 3 years old, which mean the first batch of affected properties will be free to sell in the market without penalty.
Will we see a sudden surge in resale supply in the coming months? Will this create and overhang in supply hence depressing the resale price further?[/
Your many posts tends to tell me that you are an attention seeker.
I almost think that you own *condosingapore* ..... Come on R33 ....be more objective!
Technically he is not wrong, problem is there are many other factor affecting property buying and selling. From the many post he make show other factor was not taken into consideration. If only life is so simple 1+1=2.
Please be more objective and focus on the topic of discussion, which is seller stamp duties turning 3 for the first time, not ringo33.
Which mean the first batch of property effected by SSD restriction will slowly flood the market in the coming months. I am sure there will be an effect in the supply side.
It depends, sell already, the replacement cost is very high.
It depends, sell already, the replacement cost is very high.
i second that. if it is a second property, 7% awaits. if it is the third, then 10% awaits.
Determinants of Housing prices,
1. Demand Factors
a.Gross Domestic Product
b.Prime Lending Rate(Interest rate)
c.Share Price Index
d.Number of Marriages
e.Price of Substitutes
2. Supply Factors
a.Supply of Housing
b. Land Supply
c. Cost of Building Materials
d. Cost of Labor
http://books.google.fr/books?id=OuETCM10nwkC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=factor+affecting+singapore+property&source=bl&ots=mrN8TE1-kr&sig=3mKHkyZz4w8THUSroKIKhWewoSo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sSGZUda2K4TRhAfBmoHIDQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=factor%20affecting%20singapore%20property&f=true
http://www.propertyprice.com.sg/tips-to-buy-private-property.html
TIPS ON WHEN TO BUY PRIVATE PROPERTY
People keep planning about buying a private property all throughout their life but don’t really go forward to buy it. Everyday is the right time. Just go ahead and buy it. Do not speculate too much about when, where etc. Do a proper research about the property and just buy it.
A property will be a valuable resource but it also requires careful planning and plenty of researching to buy a property. There are many facets to buying a property; recognize these aspects of the business and then only proceed to do it else you might find yourself in a stressful situation.
http://www.propertyprice.com.sg/mistakes-by-property-investors.html
When you start earning it is very important to buy a property even on loan as you can repay it before retiring. It won’t be a burden on you since you’ll be earning at your best. If you delay starting to plan about the property it may be a burden to you as the time passes by. The loan repayment amount each month keeps increasing when you delay the property buying.
http://www.propertyprice.com.sg/property-the-best-investment.html
As the cumulative effects of the seven rounds of property measures take effect and with an economy that is likely to remain subdued over the next couple of years, we believe it will be a matter of time before prices start to pull back, especially given the significant supply of properties due for completion over the next three years and the availability of additional new launches in both the private and public sectors.
Also the government has signalled its intention to delink the primary HDB market from the resale market in its effort to “tame the resale market”. Indeed the government has announced that it intends to lower BTO prices of new HDB flats in non-mature assets by pegging prices to about 4.4 times annual income or a reduction in BTO prices by around 30%.
I brought my 4 room HDB in 1988 for 83,000 about 4.4 times but need to wait 7 yrs. Then in 1993 book a 5 room for 225,600 forget how many times, reason to sell and buy, resale is more than BTO, now gov peg BTO to 4.4 times it will wake up all the second timer
This will likely have a knock-on effect on the resale market and eventually the private mass residential segment of the market. Another potential policy tweak which could have repercussions on the property market is the possible lifting of the income ceiling for public HDB flats.
Those who can afford will go for the cherry than upgrade to private, this will increase the demand for public housing
If this happens, some demand could be diverted away from the resale market. The Minister of National Development also recently hinted at the subsidies for EC should be lower than for primary HDB flats. This tweaking could have an impact on the property market as well.
Cannot buy EC than buy private, who do they think is buying the penthouse
http://sbr.com.sg/residential-property/news/what-happens-when-income-ceilings-public-hdb-flats-are-lifted
Developers are holding off new launches last month, as they typically stagger launches of attractive projects over a period of time. Similarly, the buying momentum usually follows in tandem with new launches and would need some time to fully absorb existing projects available for sale, before moving on to other launches.
Developers’ land bank depleted by robust sales
http://fisheyer.com/2013/03/30/developers-land-bank-depleted-by-robust-sales/
With an anticipated high number of upcoming project launches, especially developments at plum Government Land Sale (GLS) sites, buyers could be holding back their buying decision for now until a more attractive project is launched.
CM7 most of them out of the game, those on the sideline waiting for CM8
The buying frenzy last seen in March 2013 appears to have cooled off last month, following the government’s reaffirmation of no new cooling measures for now given that housing prices are generally moving in the intended direction.
Got more time waiting at the sideline waiting for durian to drop and their age increase day,mths,years
http://sbr.com.sg/residential-property/in-focus/heres-why-home-buying-frenzy-died-off-in-april
As at Dec 2012, the proportion of foreign workers (excluding domestic workers) was 33.6%, compared to 32.8% in 2011.
Given that the proportion is still above the 30% target threshold, the rate of increase in foreign workers is expected to slow further.
We believe most of the tightening of labor will be in the services and construction sectors, which saw increases of 22,800 and 34,900 respectively in 2012.
Lower inflows of imported labor will likely impact demand for rental properties going forward.
http://sbr.com.sg/hr-education/news/how-foreign-labour-cuts-will-affect-rental-demand-properties
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/mbfc-development-helps-to-keep-singapore/676132.html
MBFC comprises three office towers, offering about three million square feet of office space - double of what's at Raffles Place.
Singapore need more import labor for high pay job
Micro factors affecting property prices – Singapore property for rent/ sale
Singapore property for rent/ sale – Micro factors affect the prices of the property more directly such as the location, tenure, age, physical attributes, environment and economic obsolescence. The micro factors affecting property prices are as follows:
Location and location within location
The single most important factor is the location because of the immobility of real property. Location is the key factor for buyers to consider before making their decision to buy or rent. For dwelling, a location within walking distance to school, market, shopping mall, bus stop, MRT station offer convenience and time saving. The selling price of such a property is usually higher than that of a poorer location. For a retailer, a location within a location, say a ground floor unit fronting main entrance is an important factor for human traffic, visibility and identification. The units on different floor and visibility come with different premium.
Tenure
Tenure is a very important factor that will affect the value of a property. Property with tenure of freehold status has a premium over leasehold, all else being equal.
Age and condition
A newer property may command a higher price compared to an older property which may require major renovation. A property that is in bad condition may have to be priced lower as a buyer will factor in the renovation cost into the offer price. Conversely, a well renovated property will be able to fetch a higher price compared to one without any renovation for Singapore property for rent/ sale.
Design and quality of fixtures
The design and quality of the fixtures including the layout of a property may have a impact on the value of the property especially luxurious properties designed to have a high class look and feel.
Built-in area
The built-in area refers to the floor area within a unit. A unit with larger area is obviously going to cost more than a smaller unit. A unit with more bedrooms is going to be more valuation than a unit with fewer bedrooms even though they are of the same size for Singapore property for rent/ sale.
Height and view
The height of a property is applicable more for a tall building such as a condominium. Generally, the higher the floor, the more expensive it is because of the commanding view.
Orientation
Orientation refers to the direction of the property facing. Generally buyers inSingaporedo not favour west facing because of the hot afternoon sun. Pool view, greenery and sea view units will generally have a higher value than their neighbour without such view. The value of properties facing a highway will be negatively impacted due to the noise. Singapore property for rent/ sale.
Environment, accessibility and facilities
Residential environment and neighborhood is a reflection of a person’s social status. Property prices in such high social status locations will tend to be much more expensive. Accessibility to highway, transportation, schools, main roads are generally preferred for Singapore property for rent/ sale. Condos or apartments with facilities such as tennis court, swimming pool and gym are generally preferred by buyers.
Economic, Functional and Physical Obsolescence
Economic Obsolescence occurs when the environment around the property changes and causes the value of the property to diminish e.g. change in zoning on neighboring land from residential to industrial.
Functional Obsolescence refers to poor/outdated design, layout, size that are no longer popular resulting in a reduction in demand and value e.g. one toilet for a 3-bedroom apartment.
Physical Obsolescence refers to a property that is deemed to be physically in a very bad shape and it would cost more to repair than rebuilt due to gross mismanagement and physical neglect.
Influence of a corner
For a residential property in Singapore property for rent/ sale, a corner unit may be more valuable because they have more opening for air and light. On the other hand, if it is located at a road junction, there may be more noise and air pollution due to heavier traffic thereby affecting its value. As for a commercial property, a corner unit at a road junction is usually more favourable because of higher traffic from two roads. The commercial property will be more prominent and the human traffic is higher.
In the case of a plot of land, factors that can affect the value of the land are the size, shape, frontage, topography and soil condition as follows:
Size
The size of a lot is dependent on the width and depth. Generally, the wider or deeper is the side, the more valuable it is. Residential property normally prefers to have more depth unlike a retail shop which prefers more width to display their goods. For commercial properties, the space near the front is more valuable than the space at the back.
Shape
The shape of a lot affects the value of the lot. Generally, lots with odd or regular shapes are difficult to develop and would usually fetch a lower value compared to a lot of regular size. For example, a triangular plot may result in building with some odd corners, inefficient use of indoor floor space and an increase in construction costs for Singapore property for rent/ sale.
Frontage
The frontage of a lot usually refers to the boundary facing the road. If all things are equal, the wider is the frontage, the more valuable is the plot especially for commercial properties.
Topography and soil condition
The topography will affect the value of the lot. If it is very undulating, it would be more costly to have more refills and digging to make the surface regular. Hence, the value of the plot will be lower because it will cost more to develop. If it is a high ground, the value would be higher because it provides more scenic view and privacy.
The condition of the soil will also affect the development costs. If the soil is unstable, deeper piles may have to be installed to support the building structure. The top soil will also affect the type of landscaping and the intensity of the drainage system to install on site. Singapore property for rent/ sale.
http://blog.propertyguru.com.sg/8519/singapore-cooling-about-2300-prs-impacted.html
According to data provided to PropertyGuru by the HDB, there were approximately 50,700 HDB flats owned by PR households as of December 2012 – roughly five percent of the total supply. Of these, HDB said around 2,300 PR households sublet their whole flats.
Singapore home prices may shoot up further
Singapore’s residential market remains busy, despite a less than rosy economic forecast with GDP growth trimmed to 2.4 percent this year, according to the latest report from Savills.
Savills noted that the US government’s fresh round of quantitative easing (QE3) will likely push Singapore property prices up further.
The Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) conducted a study that showed the relationship between SIBOR or interbank interest rate in Singapore and changes in the US interest rate, adjusted for the expected change in the Singapore-US Dollar exchange rate. While the US interest rate is not expected to spike suddenly, long term investors should be aware that interest rate may not remain at such historic lows perpetually, when the US exchange rate and interest rates change.
http://singaporesiborwatch.com/singaporesibor-learning-centre/useful-articles/what-affects-interest-rates-in-singapore/
http://clubs.ntu.edu.sg/rms/researchreports/Property%20Market%20Risks%20in%20Singapore.pdf
http://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap64h.pdf
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/property-blog/singapore-property-market-outlook-2012-2013-101527556.html
by late Dennis Ng
It depends, sell already, the replacement cost is very high.
if everyone thinks the same then no one will be selling property in the resale market.
transaction volume for 2010Q3 and 2010Q4, is around 9200 units per quarter, so we could be looking at additional 9k+ resale properties looking for buyers by end of the year.
if everyone thinks the same then no one will be selling property in the resale market.
transaction volume for 2010Q3 and 2010Q4, is around 9200 units per quarter, so we could be looking at additional 9k+ resale properties looking for buyers by end of the year.
If i remember correctly, the CMs in place then was very meek to be honest. And re entry cost were low. That's why lately the resale volume is so low.
If i remember correctly, the CMs in place then was very meek to be honest. And re entry cost were low. That's why lately the resale volume is so low.
Its definitely meek in today's standard but back then the property market was dominated by speculators, where people are flipping property like roti prata. Having said, SSD till today is still a big deterrent for speculators.
People only talk about re entry cost when they have made profit from property, but for those who bought, loss or got stuck, re entry is perhaps the last thing of their mind.
If you talking about resale transaction volume, it might be due to the lack of buyers not sellers.
astroboy8681
20-05-13, 11:15
i concur that buyers taking loans should treat it as a fixed form of savings & to do it earlier when one's earning capability is more substantial...
the general consensus is that in our 20s we were encouraged to try various kind of jobs to ascertain where our strength lies, in our 30s we oughta be really good at what we do in our field of work, herewith lies the crucial segment of 40s going 50s where job change can be undesirable due to age/family/etc etc...
our local society can be cruel attested by some peer's stories in return for high skyscrapers, financial haven, economic ranking we have so witnessed in the past 5-8 years.
my post maybe not be so relevant to this thread but my few months of being on this forum has been tainted almost bothering of disgust by TS.
i appreciate numerous comments, in-sights in this forum but i sense most are taking a backseat just watching TS go on with his multiple but mostly unnecessary/non-constructive postings...
so TS will you just give us a break & let all look forward coming back to this platform...
People only talk about re entry cost when they have made profit from property, but for those who bought, loss or got stuck, re entry is perhaps the last thing of their mind.
If you talking about resale transaction volume, it might be due to the lack of buyers not sellers.
Those stuck one maybe we see this as an exit opportunity. But resale supply is definitely low. I have been monitoring a few resale projects for the past 3 years. Today's units for sale are half of what they were 2-3 years ago. I maybe be generalising but my agents seem to be confirmig my casual observations.
phantom_opera
20-05-13, 14:47
I don't see any point in selling although u already sitting on only 200k of profit until inflation / monetary growth is put under control
everyday I go out ... my favourite food increases in prices
same in China/India ... double chop confirmed
China M2 grows 16% yoy in April ... Japan X2 in 2y .... SG M2 still growing like 9-10% yoy ... enough said
And bear in mind the market is distorted... demand is artificially suppressed by so many CMs ... our HDB resale is very undervalued in China/India/HK/Indons standard
Of course if your gearing ratio is high, lower a bit is ok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AhYev-0ERo
In 2010 I watch the movie Money as debt. After watching I fly back to Singapore to get myself into more debt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6uuAupT4AQ
In order to crash the property market the gov need to remove all the CMs and encourage more borrowing. Those waiting need to go to the speaker corner to protest against the CMs because the CMs is preventing them from buying property and preventing the crash.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/basics/03/061303.asp
In 2011 the bank created 1.3 million from thin air for one customer and Billion for others...
When US print 85 Billion a month under QE3 unlimited ever wonder why SGD to USD currency exchange is still the same?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/afontevecchia/2012/12/12/qe4-is-here-bernanke-delivers-85b-a-month-until-unemployment-falls-below-6-5/
You print I print everyone print.
Still remember told to buy stamp and them deposit into POSB. Now just need to fill in the form and you get your money created out of thin air.
SSD turn 3 this month, so watch out for resale market Tsunami.
8,700 shoebox units for resale from now to 2017
Demand still strong despite an overall slow-moving resale market
SINGAPORE] At least 8,700 shoebox units are expected to hit the resale market between now and 2017, as the Seller's Stamp Duty (SSD) lock-in period approaches expiry. While this figure is more than double the current completed shoebox residential stock of 3,472 units, signs in the market suggest that demand for such resale units remains relatively resilient amid a slow-moving overall resale market.
This figure, revealed in the latest report from the Singapore Real Estate Exchange (SRX), is predicated on a first wave of at least 805 resale units - comprising units bought between Aug 30, 2010 and Jan 13, 2011 - and a second wave of at least 7,910 units entering the market from 2015 to 2017.
It also assumed that the first wave of units would be sold in the fourth year of acquisition, which attracts a 4 per cent SSD.
This is a reasonable assumption given that these units have, on average, achieved capital gains of around 30 per cent over the three-year SSD lock-in period, as shown by the SRX Property Index, which should overcome the SSD disincentive, noted SRX.
As a proportion of the total number of units transacted in the overall resale market, the proportion of shoebox units transacted in the resale market has been steadily increasing, from about 0.4 per cent in the first nine months of 2009 (of 10,019 units transacted), to about 2.5 per cent this year (of 5,550 units transacted).
While the proportion of resale shoebox units versus the overall resale market is increasing, this must be viewed in the context of an increasing supply of shoebox units entering the market, pointed out Ku Swee Yong, chief executive officer of Century 21 Singapore Holdings.
Indeed, part of the shoebox resale trend is attributable to the substantial number of new shoebox homes sold between 2009 and August 2010, which totalled some 2,239 units.
Looking at the investment viability of shoebox units, in the face of what some consultants have considered a potential oversupply situation, Alan Cheong, head of research at Savills Singapore posited that the picture was one of relative undersupply.
On the supply side, assuming that units sold in 2009 have since received their Temporary Occupation Permit (TOP), there are some 10,076 units that have been sold and will be ready for occupation between now and 2016.
Including 2013's annualised sales figures, some 10,674 units are expected to receive their TOP in coming years. This translates to an average of 2,668 shoebox units being completed annually, between 2014 and 2017.
On the demand side, while the number of non-citizens entering Singapore has averaged 71,500 per annum historically, this dropped to 60,200 last year.
Using 2012's figure as a guide - given the more stringent controls over the admission of foreign workers in the past year - and adopting an ultra-conservative assumption that only 30 per cent of them are employment pass (EP) holders with a family of three, the number of EP head of households comes to 6,020 persons.
Said Mr Cheong: "Anecdotally, we find that a significant number of the new EP holders are singles with constrained rental budgets, and some not even given any housing allowance. Hence, it is only logical to deduce that they will either rent HDB flats or shoeboxes."
Discounting this figure by another 50 per cent, the number of incoming singles is at least 3,010 per year.
"Some may argue that not all singles or couples who can afford to rent shoeboxes will take one," conceded Mr Cheong. "However, we can reduce the likelihood of these permutations because we can infer that with the tightened immigration policy, shoeboxes could be the preferred choice for this group of non-residents."
The reason, he explained, is that it is very likely that a foreigner who has been granted an EP would have a non-indigenous skillset, which then implies that they have a salary that is high enough to afford renting a shoebox rather than going for a HDB flat.
"With the URA limiting the average size of a unit in a residential development to 70 square metres, the supply of shoeboxes is expected to fall from these numbers we have seen in recent years. Therefore, although gross yield of shoeboxes has been falling over time, with this picture of relative undersupply, total returns (both rental and price appreciation) should still be well supported."
There might have been a wave of selling if the barriers of re entry weren't so high.
thomastansb
23-10-13, 10:53
Don't worry. There won't be Tsunami. Not even a bit of wave I feel. The LTV, SSD and TDSR will make sellers think a million times before selling. Unless the economy turns sour.
SSD turn 3 this month, so watch out for resale market Tsunami.
Just look at the US report and one will wonder when will correction occur, whether large or small correction. China's property sale is still steaming.
walkthetiger
23-10-13, 12:02
Don't worry. There won't be Tsunami. Not even a bit of wave I feel. The LTV, SSD and TDSR will make sellers think a million times before selling. Unless the economy turns sour.
...Ecomony won't?....
walkthetiger
23-10-13, 12:04
China's property sale is still steaming.
Hope this is correct...
Don't worry. There won't be Tsunami. Not even a bit of wave I feel. The LTV, SSD and TDSR will make sellers think a million times before selling. Unless the economy turns sour.
LTV and tdsr doesn't and cannot prevent supply from.flooding the resale market. And when there are more sellers than buyer sellers will automatically soften their price.
thomastansb
23-10-13, 13:09
I didn't say won't. I just reply according to the thread, which is talking about SSD causing tsunami.
...Ecomony won't?....
thomastansb
23-10-13, 13:13
If there are more sellers, then prices will go down - I agree. But this isn't my main point.
My key point is the very drastic LTV and TDSR will discourage people from selling. At least I am one of them. I won't sell no matter what. Well, unless you pay me 20% above last transacted ;) So this will take a few units off the market. Because I know I can't buy back so might as well keep collecting rental. Who knows later LTV or TDSR go down to 40%? Or MSR 30% like HDB.
LTV and tdsr doesn't and cannot prevent supply from.flooding the resale market. And when there are more sellers than buyer sellers will automatically soften their price.
If there are more sellers, then prices will go down - I agree. But this isn't my main point.
My key point is the very drastic LTV and TDSR will discourage people from selling. At least I am one of them. I won't sell no matter what. Well, unless you pay me 20% above last transacted ;) So this will take a few units off the market. Because I know I can't buy back so might as well keep collecting rental. Who knows later LTV or TDSR go down to 40%? Or MSR 30% like HDB.
There will always be desperate sellers out there who will be more willing than others to cash out at lower price. Once that happen, it will trigger another group of owners to sell because they are worried that price might drop further, and then, panic seller could starts if there are no buyers in the market.
this is just the norm for property cycle. What this article touch on are MM, there are also many larger apartment that is flooding the market as well. Perhaps we might see an increase of CCR property selling at loss soon.
thomastansb
23-10-13, 15:32
You are talking about an economy crisis. Not tsunami due to SSD expiring. Totally out of topic.
There will always be desperate sellers out there who will be more willing than others to cash out at lower price. Once that happen, it will trigger another group of owners to sell because they are worried that price might drop further, and then, panic seller could starts if there are no buyers in the market.
this is just the norm for property cycle. What this article touch on are MM, there are also many larger apartment that is flooding the market as well. Perhaps we might see an increase of CCR property selling at loss soon.
Patrickstar
23-10-13, 15:46
I am wondering what the repercussions will be if US defaults on its national debt. The ceiling can only get higher n the US economy is living on borrowed time and money.
Just look at the US report and one will wonder when will correction occur, whether large or small correction. China's property sale is still steaming.
Dont underestimate the impact of SSD...
SINGAPORE: The Real Estate Developers' Association of Singapore (REDAS) said it hopes the Singapore government will moderate and calibrate its land sales programme.
It said this is to ensure that land supply is injected at an appropriate pace that will contribute to the overall health of the market
REDAS President Chia Boon Kuah said: "As long as homes are purchased with sound reasoning, we believe in riding out each cycle that comes our way.
“We have faith that the government will continue to monitor the movements in Singapore's property cycle, and ensure a balance between development viability and housing affordability."
Mr Chia was speaking on Friday evening at the association's 54th anniversary dinner, which was also attended by National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan.
Taking stock of the year, Mr Chia noted that while the industry has had its successes, there have been challenges too. These include dealing with the impact of the government's seventh round of cooling measures and the introduction of the Total Debt Servicing Ratio.
This was against a backdrop of market volatility and a maturing real estate cycle, said Mr Chia.
He added that the substantial supply of homes coming on stream -- especially with the completion of projects currently under construction -- and the expiry of the lock-in period of the Seller Stamp Duty from now to 2017, continues to weigh on the industry's mind.
Thermofisher
02-11-13, 04:58
Dont underestimate the impact of SSD...
you must be a property agent. seems like you have no way to go but posting in this forum everyday.
Come Aug 2013, SSD will turn 3 years old, which mean the first batch of affected properties will be free to sell in the market without penalty.
Will we see a sudden surge in resale supply in the coming months? Will this create and overhang in supply hence depressing the resale price further?
only seller who need $$$ will sell other sellers if they sell they want to buy another property will kena absd tdsr bla bla policy so they will not sell my:2cents:
you must be a property agent. seems like you have no way to go but posting in this forum everyday.
let me know if anybody is selling at a discount of >10%, I will be first to queue up and also, call my friends to hoot!!!
thomastansb
03-11-13, 01:07
My citylights 1+1 rented out at 4.2k a month. Still got another 1.5 years to run. My bank installment at 1.7k. You offer me 1.4M, I sell you. Mine is > 30 floor, unblock kallang basin view and flyer view. If not, I don't see any reason to sell.
let me know if anybody is selling at a discount of >10%, I will be first to queue up and also, call my friends to hoot!!!
walkthetiger
03-11-13, 08:53
My citylights 1+1 rented out at 4.2k a month. Still got another 1.5 years to run. My bank installment at 1.7k. You offer me 1.4M, I sell you. Mine is > 30 floor, unblock kallang basin view and flyer view. If not, I don't see any reason to sell.
Citylights 1 bedroom $1.1 to $1.3M only.
Citylights 1 bedroom $1.1 to $1.3M only.
Meaning he no intend to sell until one carrot head come lor. Lol
You may get the deal when the nearby mall opens and launching of Duo. :)
My citylights 1+1 rented out at 4.2k a month. Still got another 1.5 years to run. My bank installment at 1.7k. You offer me 1.4M, I sell you. Mine is > 30 floor, unblock kallang basin view and flyer view. If not, I don't see any reason to sell.
Don't under estimate the efficiency and what the govt can do.
If people think of the undersupply variable because of past experience,
It can be a mistake.
I believe that the govt has learn something.
In terms of properties, they are more focus and has planned far ahead and
Knows what and how they have to do to ensure a stable property market.
So don't expect a continuation of price overrun in property.
walkthetiger
03-11-13, 14:34
Meaning he no intend to sell until one carrot head come lor. Lol
..hah….that $4.2 p/m for little 1 bedroom Citylights to hold/increase for next few years may remain as question.
I only hope my CCR (bought in 2010) to sell a breakeven price (include stamp duty and etc paid). It is not that easy nowadays to find “fools”.
You may get the deal when the nearby mall opens and launching of Duo. :)
When the market hit 1.4mil, he wants 1.5mil.
When I buy my 2 Bedroom @ SouthBank for SGD 535,000 in 2006 lots of people say the condo cannot make it, near HDB, need main road........
When TOP I tell myself must sell when it reach SGD 1535000 then Bernanke keep printing money guess I have to wait until he stop printing.
thomastansb
03-11-13, 16:58
Of course. My unit is very high floor. Even after paying the bank 1.7k, I have 2.5k excess every month. I am not stupid to sell it at market rate. You want, you offer. If not, I will just collect my 2.5k every month.
When the market hit 1.4mil, he wants 1.5mil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoxGi2HULA0
Positive cash flow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoxGi2HULA0
Positive cash flow.
younger brother never say how much loan he takes.... suspect he is highly leveraged. quite dangerous
Citylights 1 bedroom $1.1 to $1.3M only.
tis $ too expensive liao. limited capital appreciation~
Never underestimate last night's news on the re-categorisation of Kallang area. There is great potential in the adjacent plot of land to citylights and the new station at DTL.
tis $ too expensive liao. limited capital appreciation~
Never underestimate last night's news on the re-categorisation of Kallang area. There is great potential in the adjacent plot of land to citylights and the new station at DTL.
but the quantum will be too unattractive for a 1 bedder ...
but the quantum will be too unattractive for a 1 bedder ...
what's the psf for the 1 bedder?
what's the psf for the 1 bedder?
not sure, but if the seller is asking the below $, does it attracts u?
Citylights 1 bedroom $1.1 to $1.3M only.
not sure, but if the seller is asking the below $, does it attracts u?
if it's about $1600-1700psf, just hantam lah! if that jurong place can go for the same psf, then i think it makes citylights look cheap
When I buy my 2 Bedroom @ SouthBank for SGD 535,000 in 2006 lots of people say the condo cannot make it, near HDB, need main road........
When TOP I tell myself must sell when it reach SGD 1535000 then Bernanke keep printing money guess I have to wait until he stop printing.
You have been telling the whole world for years about the $535k already lah... tell us something new :D
if it's about $1600-1700psf, just hantam lah! if that jurong place can go for the same psf, then i think it makes citylights look cheap
You should use Echelon price of $2400psf to justify your childishness, that sound more convincing actually.
if it's about $1600-1700psf, just hantam lah! if that jurong place can go for the same psf, then i think it makes citylights look cheap
if asking for $1.1-1.3mil, psf surely wun be $16xx-17xx de la!
the sqft for 1 bedder so big meh?
You should use Echelon price of $2400psf to justify your childishness, that sound more convincing actually.
why should we use echelon instead of j-gateway? there isn't a reason to suggest one over the other.
kam gong
why should we use echelon instead of j-gateway? there isn't a reason to suggest one over the other.
kam gong
Only kam gong like you will use the highest price of one development to compare it with the lowest psf on another development. No offense such comparison only goes to show to dumb you are as a property investor.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 09:18
Mine is 678 sq ft. It's a 1+1 but is as good as a 2 bedroom. Front and back unblocked. I can see Kallang basin and flyer in front and bukit timah hill behind.
if asking for $1.1-1.3mil, psf surely wun be $16xx-17xx de la!
the sqft for 1 bedder so big meh?
Mine is 678 sq ft. It's a 1+1 but is as good as a 2 bedroom. Front and back unblocked. I can see Kallang basin and flyer in front and bukit timah hill behind.
hmmm ... if say someone buy yr type 1+1 at $1.3mil wif tenancy at $4.2k per mth. yield only 3.9%?
Only kam gong like you will use the highest price of one development to compare it with the lowest psf on another development. No offense such comparison only goes to show to dumb you are as a property investor.
citylights one bedders are asking for $1600-1700psf, kam gong.
so are you going to say J-gateway large units are more expensive than the one bedders in psf?
another self-smack in the face
if asking for $1.1-1.3mil, psf surely wun be $16xx-17xx de la!
the sqft for 1 bedder so big meh?
just checked out propertyguru, the one bedders are asking for between $1600-1700psf.
no wonder, the kam gong from the west is not happy when J gateway is used as a comparison
citylights one bedders are asking for $1600-1700psf, kam gong.
so are you going to say J-gateway large units are more expensive than the one bedders in psf?
another self-smack in the face
Parc Sophia, district 9 Freehold $15xxpsf. looks who is kam gong?? :D
Parc Sophia, district 9 Freehold $15xxpsf. looks who is kam gong?? :D
I believe tis shd be the ground level unit facing the wall.
just checked out propertyguru, the one bedders are asking for between $1600-1700psf.
no wonder, the kam gong from the west is not happy when J gateway is used as a comparison
cannot liddat compare lah, the sqft very diff leh!
Parc Sophia, district 9 Freehold $15xxpsf. looks who is kam gong?? :D
eh moron, the thread is talking about citylights and southbank. now, you go totally off tangent?!
but thanks for confirming my earlier retorts against J-gateway, there are indeed more affordable 1-bedders in D9 and 10
eh moron, the thread is talking about citylights and southbank. now, you go totally off tangent?!
but thanks for confirming my earlier retorts against J-gateway, there are indeed more affordable 1-bedders in D9 and 10
If you want to compare J Gateway, then why restrict others from comparing property from other district??
So you are not happy that I prove that you kam gong right? what a cry baby... :D
And btw, this thread is about about SSD turning 3. Better go take medicine before you die of high blood pressure.
If you want to compare J Gateway, then why restrict others from comparing property from other district??
So you are not happy that I prove that you kam gong right? what a cry baby... :D
And btw, this thread is about about SSD turning 3. Better go take medicine before you die of high blood pressure.
sure, by all means go compare, no one is stopping you if you insist on slapping yourself and put a foot in your own mouth. compare more so that we can all see that J-gateway is relatively more expensive than projects in D9 & 10.
and thanks again for confirming my stance.
sure, by all means go compare, no one is stopping you if you insist on slapping yourself and put a foot in your own mouth. compare more so that we can all see that J-gateway is relatively more expensive than projects in D9 & 10.
and thanks again for confirming my stance.
So Kam Gong, Citylight vs Parc Sophia which is better??? :D
So Kam Gong, Citylight vs Parc Sophia which is better??? :D
eh kam gong, both are better than J-gateway. don't frame the discussion to deflect your own-goal
astroboy8681
04-11-13, 10:00
eh kam gong, both are better than J-gateway. don't frame the discussion to deflect your own-goal
agree :) both are way way better
eh kam gong, both are better than J-gateway. don't frame the discussion to deflect your own-goal
So are you saying that in 3 years time, the rental yield and capital gain potential for Citylights and Parc Sophia will be better than J Gateway?
I hope this is not another case of ALL FART NO SHIT (EBD).
So are you saying that in 3 years time, the rental yield and capital gain potential for Citylights and Parc Sophia will be better than J Gateway?
I hope this is not another case of ALL FART NO SHIT (EBD).
ROFL
so after realizing you scored an own goal, now you want to gaze into a crystalball and predict potential gain and yield in 3 years? no need to wait for 3 years, i, personally, would pick citylights and parc sophia over J-gateway on the merits of price point and location.
i rest my case, think i've had enough fun for the day rubbishing your rubbish
ROFL
so after realizing you scored an own goal, now you want to gaze into a crystalball and predict potential gain and yield in 3 years? no need to wait for 3 years, i, personally, would pick citylights and parc sophia over J-gateway on the merits of price point and location.
i rest my case, think i've had enough fun for the day rubbishing your rubbish
ROFLOL!!!
MERITS OF PRICE AND LOCATION.
So do you have the manhood to say that both Citylights and Parc Sophia will have better capital gain and rental yield potential than J Gateway in 3 years time?
YES or NO is what I wish to hear, not some kam gong stories and excuses?
thomastansb
04-11-13, 11:58
Rental yield, already proven. No need to wait 3 years. CL studio average 3.8k. Caspian average 2.7k. Parc Sophia around 3.5k average. OCR is always OCR.
ROFLOL!!!
MERITS OF PRICE AND LOCATION.
So do you have the manhood to say that both Citylights and Parc Sophia will have better capital gain and rental yield potential than J Gateway in 3 years time?
YES or NO is what I wish to hear, not some kam gong stories and excuses?
thomastansb
04-11-13, 12:02
That is why till today, I am still renting out and enjoying the extra cash every month. Just take the money, save half and go overseas every few months. Not really keen to sell anyway. Sell already, I cannot buy back. 7% ABSD, 50% LTV, 60% TDSR and who knows, MSR as the next cooling measures. I rather rent out and collect 50k a year.
hmmm ... if say someone buy yr type 1+1 at $1.3mil wif tenancy at $4.2k per mth. yield only 3.9%?
Rental yield, already proven. No need to wait 3 years. CL studio average 3.8k. Caspian average 2.7k. Parc Sophia around 3.5k average. OCR is always OCR.
for Caspian, though at 2.7k, the yield is still gd. but many who bought JG at a much higher $ feels tat the same yield can be obtained without considering the fact tat the initial cost of investment is way much higher than Caspian.
wat a naïve & self-deceiving argument! :banghead:
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 12:46
That is why till today, I am still renting out and enjoying the extra cash every month. Just take the money, save half and go overseas every few months. Not really keen to sell anyway. Sell already, I cannot buy back. 7% ABSD, 50% LTV, 60% TDSR and who knows, MSR as the next cooling measures. I rather rent out and collect 50k a year.
Good to know that you can confidently assume everything will appear rosy (interest rate stay low forever) to pocket that $50k rental ever single year in future. With no bank loan, tax, maintenance fees (appear rising) and etc as well.
I don’t believe in 1 bed things, as it doesn’t seem to be a very good product.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 13:10
I bought it during the low with a 40 years loan so the impact is not as much as buyers who bought it now with 25 or 30 years loan.
Well, interest rate won't stay low, rental won't stay high forever. That is a risk and I am happy to accept the risk for 2.5k cash a month. 1 bedroom offers the highest yield. It is a known fact.
Good to know that you can confidently assume everything will appear rosy (interest rate stay low forever) to pocket that $50k rental ever single year in future. With no bank loan, tax, maintenance fees (appear rising) and etc as well.
I don’t believe in 1 bed things, as it doesn’t seem to be a very good product.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 13:23
Mine is 678 sq ft. It's a 1+1 but is as good as a 2 bedroom. Front and back unblocked. I can see Kallang basin and flyer in front and bukit timah hill behind.
So it is a 678 sq ft, worth just above $1m, yet hopes someone to buy $1.4M from u.....Suggest you keep it with you forever, so it appears "buy-low and sell-high" is not inside your investment formula.
Have to admit, I do have 1 or 2 "misses", and that is why I am trying to get rid of those now.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 13:33
I bought it during the low with a 40 years loan so the impact is not as much as buyers who bought it now with 25 or 30 years loan.
Well, interest rate won't stay low, rental won't stay high forever. That is a risk and I am happy to accept the risk for 2.5k cash a month. 1 bedroom offers the highest yield. It is a known fact.
Your leverage may seem high.... and your risk is definitely not a small one when relatively compare with those who bought with a small bank loan.
Be careful.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 13:50
It's okay. Everything comes with a risk. I think my risk is relatively small though. Loan left 33 years, paying 1.7k a month.
Your leverage may seem high.... and your risk is definitely not a small one when relatively compare with those who bought with a small bank loan.
Be careful.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 13:52
Not when ABSD, LTV, TDSR and MSR are on the tables. You can only sell high and buy nothing today. Mid floor already 1.2M. Mine is close to the top. I can afford to wait and collect rental.
So it is a 678 sq ft, worth just above $1m, yet hopes someone to buy $1.4M from u.....Suggest you keep it with you forever, so it appears "buy-low and sell-high" is not inside your investment formula.
Have to admit, I do have 1 or 2 "misses", and that is why I am trying to get rid of those now.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 14:10
Not when ABSD, LTV, TDSR and MSR are on the tables. You can only sell high and buy nothing today. Mid floor already 1.2M. Mine is close to the top. I can afford to wait and collect rental.
Originally Posted by thomastansb
Not really keen to sell anyway. Sell already, I cannot buy back. 7% ABSD
With your worry "can't buy back a 1 million property after selling, due to current TDSR and etc", therefore please be realistic, and be happy if someone buys from you at reasonable price, you gain a few hundred thousand with that.
Don’t be too greedy.
Squall8888
04-11-13, 14:16
I am one of those who is renting out and I don't intend to sell. I got a unit at waterbank and getting a good yield for it. Don't intend to time the market since overall, the market will still go up. After 20 years, the loan will be more or less cleared and I can retire by then. I think most first owners who buy before 2011 can afford to hold on easily.
So it is a 678 sq ft, worth just above $1m, yet hopes someone to buy $1.4M from u.....Suggest you keep it with you forever, so it appears "buy-low and sell-high" is not inside your investment formula.
Have to admit, I do have 1 or 2 "misses", and that is why I am trying to get rid of those now.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 14:18
It's okay. I will just hold then if my asking price is not met. I have nothing to lose since the rental is coming in every month. SSD expiring is not going to make me change my mind.
Originally Posted by thomastansb
Not really keen to sell anyway. Sell already, I cannot buy back. 7% ABSD
With your worry "can't buy back a 1 million property after selling, due to current TDSR and etc", therefore please be realistic, and be happy if someone buys from you at reasonable price, you gain a few hundred thousand with that.
Don’t be too greedy.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 14:22
I am one of those who is renting out and I don't intend to sell. I got a unit at waterbank and getting a good yield for it. Don't intend to time the market since overall, the market will still go up. After 20 years, the loan will be more or less cleared and I can retire by then. I think most first owners who buy before 2011 can afford to hold on easily.
...hah...notice that you always appear when I am talking to your friend…
Ok…if that is your humble investment plan, then should be alright...Good luck.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 14:28
It's okay. I will just hold then if my asking price is not met. I have nothing to lose since the rental is coming in every month. SSD expiring is not going to make me change my mind.
A $1.4M price for you unit is insane price, be realistic if you are serious about selling.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 14:49
Not really keen if you read my previous posts.
A $1.4M price for you unit is insane price, be realistic if you are serious about selling.
The project of lights and banks have captial appreciated quite a lot and less of an issue on holding for rental with property being subsidized by tenants. Anyway, there will be great news coming along in the kallang basin area with re-categorisation of land use. Land bid price around there cannot be lower than OCR.
I am one of those who is renting out and I don't intend to sell. I got a unit at waterbank and getting a good yield for it. Don't intend to time the market since overall, the market will still go up. After 20 years, the loan will be more or less cleared and I can retire by then. I think most first owners who buy before 2011 can afford to hold on easily.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 15:04
Not really keen if you read my previous posts.
I can assume you are already contended in this comfort situation; seeing no need to sell now even with good gain margin.
Looking back, I had experienced times where it was really hard to find buyer. Good luck.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 16:16
You don't need luck. You need holding power. If I won't sell now, why would I sell when times are hard to find a buyer? That would be stupid. Just hold and collect rental. Even if interest shoot up to 3.5%, my installment will go up from 1.7 to 2.4k. I am sure rental will stay above 3k. Has never dipped below 3.5k even during 2008/09 crisis.
I can assume you are already contended in this comfort situation; seeing no need to sell now even with good gain margin.
Looking back, I had experienced times where it was really hard to find buyer. Good luck.
You don't need luck. You need holding power. If I won't sell now, why would I sell when times are hard to find a buyer? That would be stupid. Just hold and collect rental. Even if interest shoot up to 3.5%, my installment will go up from 1.7 to 2.4k. I am sure rental will stay above 3k. Has never dipped below 3.5k even during 2008/09 crisis.
holding power oso means one nid to be able to tong in the event the unit is not rentable.
Could have accumulated sufficient $ from rental over the last 5 years to pay for the mortgage during bad times like no rental and paid for other expenses such as maintenance fee, mortgage, etc. Those who have bought new/BUC units recently should be more worried as prices are higher and correction will impact this group of people a lot more.
holding power oso means one nid to be able to tong in the event the unit is not rentable.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 20:28
Even if interest shoot up to 3.5%, my installment will go up from 1.7 to 2.4k. I am sure rental will stay above 3k. Has never dipped below 3.5k even during 2008/09 crisis.
When that happen u can only dream if buyers willing to pay $1M at current market price for your unit. So, it is clear to me that your approach "low don't sell, high also don't sell, just buy and buy....". Well, it has nothing wrong, just feels that there are better way only...
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 20:43
holding power oso means one nid to be able to tong in the event the unit is not rentable.
I can sense the game is depending on monthly rental, sustaining all because tenant willing to pay his bank loan, also giving him that bit of $2k extra every month.
If sell now, he may gain $500k (est.) easily at realistic price. Ultimately, it is his chioce how to make money.
thomastansb
04-11-13, 20:45
Why not? By 63 years old, even if I didn't manage to sell any of my properties, I would have 4 fully paid properties. Sounds pretty good to me. Now with ABSD, LTV, TDSR, pretty impossible to buy a second one. Let alone third or fourth.
When that happen u can only dream if buyers willing to pay $1M at current market price for your unit. So, it is clear to me that your approach "low don't sell, high also don't sell, just buy and buy....". Well, it has nothing wrong, just feels that there are better way only...
thomastansb
04-11-13, 20:47
Need to save up every month lor. Now 4.2k rental, pay the bank 1.7k, left 2.5k. If I save 2k a month for the next 2 years, I would have saved enough to last me for 2 years without rental.
holding power oso means one nid to be able to tong in the event the unit is not rentable.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 20:54
Could have accumulated sufficient $ from rental over the last 5 years to pay for the mortgage during bad times like no rental and paid for other expenses such as maintenance fee, mortgage, etc. Those who have bought new/BUC units recently should be more worried as prices are higher and correction will impact this group of people a lot more.
For his case, he receives that bit of $2k extra from one month rental. For bad times, should we be talking about no rental for months with interest rate goes up as well. Then try to sell, but realize nobody going to pay current market price, so ending up may appear lesser by 1 or 2 hundred thousand (assume worst case).
Just hope bank doesn’t knock on his door, but that seems unlikely for his case.
walkthetiger
04-11-13, 21:00
Why not? By 63 years old, even if I didn't manage to sell any of my properties, I would have 4 fully paid properties. Sounds pretty good to me. Now with ABSD, LTV, TDSR, pretty impossible to buy a second one. Let alone third or fourth.
....All the best, now it knew that you are playing with 4 properties, your leverage is multiple by 4 in fact…yet you can be affected by TDSR for a 1 million property…your risk level is at a different league.
ROFLOL!!!
MERITS OF PRICE AND LOCATION.
So do you have the manhood to say that both Citylights and Parc Sophia will have better capital gain and rental yield potential than J Gateway in 3 years time?
YES or NO is what I wish to hear, not some kam gong stories and excuses?
kam gong, told you already that there is simply no reason or facts to back up a forecast three years into the future. economists don't even do that, MAS don't even do that.
to humor you, YES. and right now, i will pick citylights and parc sophia over some crappy, overpriced jurong east LH condo.
oh ya, why don't you say being in proximity to industries would enhance a property's attractiveness? epic kam gong
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 08:08
kam gong, told you already that there is simply no reason or facts to back up a forecast three years into the future. economists don't even do that, MAS don't even do that.
to humor you, YES. and right now, i will pick citylights and parc sophia over some crappy, overpriced jurong east LH condo.
oh ya, why don't you say being in proximity to industries would enhance a property's attractiveness? epic kam gong
Totally insane to say Citylights and parc sophia are not better than Jurong.
Totally insane to say Citylights and parc sophia are not better than Jurong.
Yay! there is someone else here that thinks sensibly.
but there is one (or two) lesson we learn here - stupidity has no bounds and there is no point throwing pearls to swines.
it's plain for everyone to judge. LH Jurong rivalling, if not costing more than, certain FH D9/10 properties and yet a certain moron claims the former is better??
Thomas.. could be top 3% income earner. The amount is small matter.
....All the best, now it knew that you are playing with 4 properties, your leverage is multiple by 4 in fact…yet you can be affected by TDSR for a 1 million property…your risk level is at a different league.
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 08:26
Yay! there is someone else here that thinks sensibly.
but there is one (or two) lesson we learn here - stupidity has no bounds and there is no point throwing pearls to swines.
it's plain for everyone to judge. LH Jurong rivalling, if not costing more than, certain FH D9/10 properties and yet a certain moron claims the former is better??
Sometimes back, he argues that Bishan is no better than Jurong, now Citylights and Parc Sophia. Soon he will challenge everyone with his insane reasons that Jurong can be even better than District 1.
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 08:53
Thomas.. could be top 3% income earner. The amount is small matter.
Just hope he did not under declare income by too much, as he claimed to be affected by TDSR of $1m property, playing with 4 properties currently.
Btw, that is his personal info, who knows better than him.....Hah...maybe IRAS know better.
kam gong, told you already that there is simply no reason or facts to back up a forecast three years into the future. economists don't even do that, MAS don't even do that.
to humor you, YES. and right now, i will pick citylights and parc sophia over some crappy, overpriced jurong east LH condo.
oh ya, why don't you say being in proximity to industries would enhance a property's attractiveness? epic kam gong
Sure, lets visit this discussion in 3 years time to compare capital gain and rental yield.
thomastansb
05-11-13, 09:13
Never under declare your income. They will catch you easily. Anyway, you already earn, might as well contribute to the country. 15% is quite low by international standard. You earn $100, you keep $85. I find it is quite reasonable.
Just hope he did not under declare income by too much, as he claimed to be affected by TDSR of $1m property, playing with 4 properties currently.
Btw, that is his personal info, who knows better than him.....Hah...maybe IRAS know better.
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 09:21
Never under declare your income. They will catch you easily. Anyway, you already earn, might as well contribute to the country. 15% is quite low by international standard. You earn $100, you keep $85. I find it is quite reasonable.
Right...take care of your risk too...
Stay humble; income can be affected by economy.
Sometimes back, he argues that Bishan is no better than Jurong, now Citylights and Parc Sophia. Soon he will challenge everyone with his insane reasons that Jurong can be even better than District 1.
the word "Better" is very vague so you might want to elaborate what exactly do you mean better?
Better as in more prestige and expensive, or better because of better capital gain and rental yield potential.
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 15:04
the word "Better" is very vague so you might want to elaborate what exactly do you mean better?
Better as in more prestige and expensive, or better because of better capital gain and rental yield potential.
..hah..No point explains to you, as all you want is argue for killing time...
..hah..No point explains to you, as all you want is argue for killing time...
try harder next time
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 19:48
try harder next time
I think you have said "Not CCR are prime", but listen now, those projects mentioned here are the good ones in CCR, many people will agree, you cannot compare these with Jurong anymore.
I think you have said "Not CCR are prime", but listen now, those projects mentioned here are the good ones in CCR, many people will agree, you cannot compare these with Jurong anymore.
I am not sure why you are not directing your comment to that KAM GONG forummer who started comparing J Gateway with DUO.
I am sure you are not as kam gong right?
walkthetiger
05-11-13, 21:14
I am not sure why you are not directing your comment to that KAM GONG forummer who started comparing J Gateway with DUO.
I am sure you are not as kam gong right?
..Hah.....:doh:
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