Landed are mostly for own stay? [Archive] - Condo Forum Singapore Property Review Mortgage Loan Buy Rent Sell Real Estate

equalizer

10-05-13, 21:02

There has been plenty of talk about landed property are mainly bought for own stay. However a quick check on the URA rental transaction record show that from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013, there are close to 5000 landed rental contract signed. If we use 2 years lease contract as average and include those transaction off URA radar, then we could be looking at at lease 10,000 landed properties in the market for rental.

If we based on the landed property stock of 60,000 in Singapore, this will mean that at least 16% of the landed properties in Singapore are for rent.

Apr12 to Mar 13 average rent was $8100, Q1 2013 average rent is around $7980 per mth. Is this a sign that rental rate for landed property is coming down?

Another myth is busted..

Firstly, the total stock of landed as at Q1 2013 is 70,578 and not 60K. Assuming your 10K figure is not fudged, 10K over 70K is only 14%.

86% of landed owners staying in their own house means myth busted?

Ringo33

10-05-13, 23:18

Firstly, the total stock of landed as at Q1 2013 is 70,578 and not 60K. Assuming your 10K figure is not fudged, 10K over 70K is only 14%.

86% of landed owners staying in their own house means myth busted?

actually there should be more than 10K because this exclude those landed property that are put in the market looking for tenant. Perhaps you could bump the figure up to 13k or so.

Which mean, every 1 in 5 landed property are bought for investment.

Ringo33

10-05-13, 23:21

We all know landed has the worst yield, if minus maintenance because of poor workmanship end up negative, only good for own stay.... :beats-me-man:

yes, even those who bought landed property not so long ago can attest to that.

Yes, although you don't need to pay monthly maintenance fees like a condo, the upkeep of a landed is not cheap especially if you have a pool, landscaped garden and water feature.

proper-t

10-05-13, 23:24

actually there should be more than 10K because this exclude those landed property that are put in the market looking for tenant. Perhaps you could bump the figure up to 13k or so.

Which mean, every 1 in 5 landed property are bought for investment.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound now trying to cover up your own blunder?

First you underestimate the total stock of landed and now you want to bump up your 10K rented homes to 13K.

Anyway, thanks for proving that the majority of landed owners buy for their own stay. Its been recorded in my thread and I have given you due credit.

Ringo33

10-05-13, 23:45

I thought it was facts. Didnt know that figure have jump so much since 97.

Wondering why TS even wanted to use 1997 figures instead of current 70k

Facts:

Total stock of landed properties as at 1997 = 63,231

proper-t

10-05-13, 23:55

I thought it was facts. Didnt know that figure have jump so much since 97.

Wondering why TS even wanted to use 1997 figures instead of current 70k

It was used because I was talking about the 97 crash and I had successfully used that to dispute you. Readers can refer to it in my thread linked below:

http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17132

You are now talking about rented homes from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013. Please enlighten readers here why you would want to use the 97 figures vs the latest Q1 2013 figures.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 00:03

It was used because I was talking about the 97 crash and I had successfully used that to dispute you. Readers can refer to it in my thread linked below:

http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17132

You are now talking about rented homes from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013. Please enlighten readers here why you would want to use the 97 figures vs the latest Q1 2013 figures.

nah, I have no interest in engaging you in any discussion about property. nothing personal, just my preference.

proper-t

11-05-13, 00:03

yes, even those who bought landed property not so long ago can attest to that.

Yes, although you don't need to pay monthly maintenance fees like a condo, the upkeep of a landed is not cheap especially if you have a pool, landscaped garden and water feature.

Oh dear....first you try to downsize the total stock of landed from 70K to 60K

Then you try to up your rented homes from 10K to 13K

Next you bring up a silly notion that your blunder of using 60K was due to my using 97 figures in another thread

But this is the lowest you have ever gone. Quoting me when I did not even post that statement above.

Readers can now see that when you can't win in any logical discussion and continually shoot yourself in your own foot, this shows the depths you sink to just to redeem yourself.

proper-t

11-05-13, 00:29

nah, I have no interest in engaging you in any discussion about property. nothing personal, just my preference.

Of course you would prefer it........its better than ending up like a fool everytime.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 00:32

1.5% is shit. Even Orchard gets 2%. I guess if one wants to buy landed then better buy it for own stay.

Assuming $3.9m, with 80% loan at 1.25% over 30 years, the monthly installment will be $10,400 per month.

So based on the average rental of $8k, one will have to fork out extra 2.4K per month to service the loan while letting some expat family enjoy the landed property. And this is excluding the headache and cost of maintaining the property every time the tenant call you.

Even if you are buying for own stay, the cost of mortgage alone will be $10.4k per month, this is excluding utilities, and other cost related to landed property. According to proper-T, it can be quite costly to maintain landed especially with pool, water feature and landscaping. So I reckon it must be pretty costly.

And based on the average household income of 25K per month for landed property (according to 2012 household income report), a household who took up 80% loan to acquire a landed property at say 3.9m, they will be left with less than 10K to for the family. This include car, transport, food, shopping, utilities, holiday kids, maid, school, income taxes property taxes insurance healthcare bill etc etc etc.

If we look at it from affordability and consumption point of view, I think landed property bubble has grown so quickly and massively that those trapped inside does not even realized they are inside the bubble

proper-t

11-05-13, 00:37

No point talking about rental yield. The fact has been verified.

86% of landed owners buy for their own stay based on figures from Ringo33 and the Q1 2013 total stock of landed from SingStat.

proper-t

11-05-13, 00:44

Assuming $3.9m, with 80% loan at 1.25% over 30 years, the monthly installment will be $10,400 per month.

So based on the average rental of $8k, one will have to fork out extra 2.4K per month to service the loan while letting some expat family enjoy the landed property. And this is excluding the headache and cost of maintaining the property every time the tenant call you.

Even if you are buying for own stay, the cost of mortgage alone will be $10.4k per month, this is excluding utilities, and other cost related to landed property. According to proper-T, it can be quite costly to maintain landed especially with pool, water feature and landscaping. So I reckon it must be pretty costly.

And based on the average household income of 25K per month for landed property (according to 2012 household income report), a household who took up 80% loan to acquire a landed property at say 3.9m, they will be left with less than 10K to for the family. This include car, transport, food, shopping, utilities, holiday kids, maid, school, income taxes property taxes insurance healthcare bill etc etc etc.

If we look at it from affordability and consumption point of view, I think landed property bubble has grown so quickly and massively that those trapped inside does not even realized they are inside the bubble

Can you please point out where I made the statement in bold? The thread and post #.

You must really be desperate to use my nick for a statement I never made.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 00:48

Every time I come of this forum, I always think of this TVC. hilarious isnt it?

We only talk about the GOOD STUFF!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRR3gEHLH8M

proper-t

11-05-13, 00:54

Sometimes, people just don't realise that they ARE the enetertainment.

The fun times one gets from watching someone shoot themselves in the foot and desperately trying to concoct an imaginary statement to prove their case.

lajia

11-05-13, 08:17

Very persistent for u to think that u can talk down the landed market...so many questions unanswered from other thread u can just open a new one with the same intention. I just too free, if not I don't even bother to post on this thread.....

I didn't know that u can simple reduced the total number of landed units and then simply increase the number of rental transactions based on your assumption of your radar, just to support your idea that many landed units are rented out....
I also don't know you are so intelligent to take average for property ranging from 2mil to 30mil....

Who so stupid to buy with monthly installment of 10k/mth and then rent out at 8k/mth?? With such proposition might as well get a few MM if the intention is to rent?? Only u know how to calculate? U think ppl are no brains? Or just u who think of such? :doh:

U really love landed so much and having been eyeing on one right....bro, just go get it, it will be supported by the population growth....trust me!

There has been plenty of talk about landed property are mainly bought for own stay. However a quick check on the URA rental transaction record show that from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013, there are close to 5000 landed rental contract signed. If we use 2 years lease contract as average and include those transaction off URA radar, then we could be looking at at lease 10,000 landed properties in the market for rental.

If we based on the landed property stock of 60,000 in Singapore, this will mean that at least 16% of the landed properties in Singapore are for rent.

Apr12 to Mar 13 average rent was $8100, Q1 2013 average rent is around $7980 per mth. Is this a sign that rental rate for landed property is coming down?

Another myth is busted..

MLP

11-05-13, 08:56

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo..... You are really a diversion expert. Before answering all the questions from your earlier threads, you start a new one. Are you an attention seeker or a full-time landed buster?

Anyway, we are not interested in your threads. But you did provide a lot entertainment to many forumers here. :banghead:

There has been plenty of talk about landed property are mainly bought for own stay. However a quick check on the URA rental transaction record show that from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013, there are close to 5000 landed rental contract signed. If we use 2 years lease contract as average and include those transaction off URA radar, then we could be looking at at lease 10,000 landed properties in the market for rental.

If we based on the landed property stock of 60,000 in Singapore, this will mean that at least 16% of the landed properties in Singapore are for rent.

Apr12 to Mar 13 average rent was $8100, Q1 2013 average rent is around $7980 per mth. Is this a sign that rental rate for landed property is coming down?

Another myth is busted..

wind30

11-05-13, 10:22

1.5% is shit. Even Orchard gets 2%. I guess if one wants to buy landed then better buy it for own stay.

ya... on the bright side, my current landed property tax is around the same as my EC previously although the current place is more than 2x the value.

wind30

11-05-13, 10:31

No point talking about rental yield. The fact has been verified.

86% of landed owners buy for their own stay based on figures from Ringo33 and the Q1 2013 total stock of landed from SingStat.

I think the percentage is probably like 80-85% for own stay. But the rental returns are poor so it does makes sense that most people buy landed for own stay.

The interesting fact is that the amount of landed increased from 60k to 70k in over 16 years?? That is a very small increase right.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 11:04

Very persistent for u to think that u can talk down the landed market...so many questions unanswered from other thread u can just open a new one with the same intention. I just too free, if not I don't even bother to post on this thread.....

I didn't know that u can simple reduced the total number of landed units and then simply increase the number of rental transactions based on your assumption of your radar, just to support your idea that many landed units are rented out....
I also don't know you are so intelligent to take average for property ranging from 2mil to 30mil....

Who so stupid to buy with monthly installment of 10k/mth and then rent out at 8k/mth?? With such proposition might as well get a few MM if the intention is to rent?? Only u know how to calculate? U think ppl are no brains? Or just u who think of such? :doh:

U really love landed so much and having been eyeing on one right....bro, just go get it, it will be supported by the population growth....trust me!

I have no time in engaging in this sort of meaningless discussion with you about landed property. If you think that a household with an income of 25K can justify living in a $3.9m property, then perhaps you could show us the numbers instead of tell us to trust you this and that.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 11:05

ya... on the bright side, my current landed property tax is around the same as my EC previously although the current place is more than 2x the value.

how could that be possible? what is the property tax you were paying for your EC?

Ringo33

11-05-13, 11:21

I think the percentage is probably like 80-85% for own stay. But the rental returns are poor so it does makes sense that most people buy landed for own stay.

The interesting fact is that the amount of landed increased from 60k to 70k in over 16 years?? That is a very small increase right.

Assuming average price of landed property today is around $3.9m, which mean the opportunity cost of living in landed property today is around $12k per month or $400 per day. (this is the rental income one would could get if you own 4 x $1m condo for rent)

Hence it might make more economic sense to own 4 x $1m condo, collect $12k rent and spend $8k to rent a landed property. That way you still be living in landed property, have $4m worth of assets, and have an extra income of $4k per month.

And the best past is, you dont even need to bother about maintaining the landed property because that the landlord's job

lajia

11-05-13, 11:24

I'm trying to make u use your time wisely...u spent most of your time talking nonsense of course u got no time la...

as I ask u in previous thread, did your income doubled or more than doubled when your property price doubles since 2008 to 2013??
how can your income catch up, be it landed or condo, it is the same right??

and how do u know that they bought it at 3.9mil?? How many such cases where by income 25k buying property of value 4mil?? Can u show the fig? they buy at 1.9 mil??and now property value grow and of course as I explain, how to have your income catch up??

u talking nonsense right??

I have no time in engaging in this sort of meaningless discussion with you about landed property. If you think that a household with an income of 25K can justify living in a $3.9m property, then perhaps you could show us the numbers instead of tell us to trust you this and that.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 11:34

What is the average price of landed property sold in the last 12 months?
What is the average income of household living in landed property in 2012?
What is the average rent of landed property is the last 12 months?

Please do your homework before commenting.

lajia

11-05-13, 12:04

Homework?? U did a lot then how come keep avoiding those critical question and no answer say u no time?? Start another thread talk nonsense again? Landed only max 70k plus households max, if crash, all die together lor, how many % out of the 1.2mil household?? For condo, scary or not if it crash?? Because the household income of 12k how to cope with average condo price of 2mil?? Average right, now I'm also using average....go do your homework in condo then u speak. The number even more scary....

What is the average price of landed property sold in the last 12 months?
What is the average income of household living in landed property in 2012?
What is the average rent of landed property is the last 12 months?

Please do your homework before commenting.

Ringo33

11-05-13, 12:15

The huge disparity between asset price and household income in landed property is perhaps the reason why when ever there is a shock in the market, price of landed will all hit the same bottom as other class of property regardless what you say about landed is for own stay or HNW new citizen etc etc

It is true that when crisis hit, all property price will decline, but the difference here is whether you fall from 20 storey high or 3 storey. One will mean instant death while the other might cause you to break a bone or 2.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7669/uraq113.png

lajia

11-05-13, 13:32

小强。。。:scared-4:

MLP

11-05-13, 14:46

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....The same old #@!$ again. No matter what or how you try to twist and turn, the real fact is landed houses are increasing at a much lower pace than the increase of population. Currently there are 5.2 million people with 70000 landed houses. By 2030, we shall have 6.9 million people and 75000 landed houses. And by 2050 (when you are 70), the population will be 10 million and the number of landed houses may be around 80000. I do not think the number of landed houses (especially FREEHOLD ones) will increase significantly like Condo and HDB apartments.

So Ringo, when you are 70, do you think you can afford a landed house? You better wake up earlier before it is too late for you.

The huge disparity between asset price and household income in landed property is perhaps the reason why when ever there is a shock in the market, price of landed will all hit the same bottom as other class of property regardless what you say about landed is for own stay or HNW new citizen etc etc

It is true that when crisis hit, all property price will decline, but the difference here is whether you fall from 20 storey high or 3 storey. One will mean instant death while the other might cause you to break a bone or 2.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7669/uraq113.png

iwantland

11-05-13, 21:33

Which mean, every 1 in 5 landed property are bought for investment.
Another new info for me, my maths teacher has been teaching me all the wrong calculation. 86% is equal to 1 in 5 bought for investment as oppose to 1 in 8.6 . Good observation :scared-5:

wind30

11-05-13, 21:40

since you guys are so free, I have pulled out all the terrace housing projects in the pipeline to see how much supply there is. Information from URA website.

Out of the below, which ones are NOT Strata?? Anyone idle enough to give people a number? I know luxus hills is landed and that is 700 units.

I would roughly estimate around 1500 units of terrace housing coming onboard in the next 3 years? That is around 500 units a year? Of that, quite a few projects like luxus hills is based on "old" land horded by developers, ie there will probably not be much new supply anymore.

Project Particulars Number of Units in Project
Project Name
Street Name
Name of Developer
Total Detached House Semi-Detached House Terrace House
Expected Year of TOP
ARCHIPELAGO BEDOK RESERVOIR ROAD United Venture Development (Bedok) Pte Ltd 577 0 24 0 2016
ASIMONT VILLAS ASIMONT LANE 11 Asimont Developments Pte Ltd 21 0 0 21 na
AVANT PARC WAK HASSAN DRIVE/WAK HASSAN PLACE Sunway Land Pte Ltd 15 0 0 15 2013
CHARLTON 18 CHARLTON LANE/UPPER SERANGOON ROAD De Paradiso Development Pte Ltd 18 0 0 18 na
CHARLTON 27 CHARLTON ROAD/SURIN AVENUE Surindipity Pte Ltd 27 0 0 27 na
CHARLTON RESIDENCES CHARLTON ROAD Charlton Residences Pte Ltd 21 0 0 21 2014
CLUSTER HOUSING DEVELOPMENT MOUNT ROSIE ROAD Casuarina Properties Pte Ltd 193 2 4 187 na
CONDOMINIUM AND STRATA HOUSING DEVELOPMENT MARINE PARADE ROAD Ladyhill Pte Ltd 124 0 0 4 na
D'LEEDON LEEDON HEIGHTS Morganite Pte Ltd 1,715 0 12 0 na
ECO BEDOK SOUTH AVENUE 3 eCO Properties Pte Ltd 748 0 0 34 na
EIGHT RIVERSUITES WHAMPOA EAST UE Development (Bendemeer) Pte Ltd 862 0 0 19 2016
ELEVEN @ HOLLAND HOLLAND LINK Clydesbuilt (Holland Link) Pte Ltd 82 0 82 0 na
ESTE VILLA NIM ROAD Kedron Investments Pte Ltd 121 0 2 119 na
ESTRIVILLAS JALAN LIM TAI SEE Fortune Land Pte Ltd 39 1 38 0 na
EUHABITAT JALAN EUNOS OPH Marymount Ltd/Transurban Properties Pte Ltd 748 0 0 51 na
FLORIDA PARK (PHASE 3) YIO CHU KANG ROAD Bullion Holdings Pte Ltd 55 0 0 55 na
GREENWOOD MEWS GREENWOOD AVENUE Golden Development Pte Ltd/Astoria Park Pte Ltd 62 0 0 62 na
HAUS@SERANGOON GARDEN SERANGOON GARDEN WAY Sparkland Holdings Pte Ltd 97 0 0 97 na
HILLSTA PHOENIX ROAD TrustHouse Pte Ltd 416 0 0 20 na
KOVAN REGENCY KOVAN RISE Hoi Hup Kovan Development Pte Ltd 393 0 0 15 2016
LIAN VILLAS EAST COAST AVENUE Asia Industrial Development Pte Ltd 17 11 0 6 2013
LUXUS HILLS/LANDED HOUSING DEVELOPMENT ANG MO KIO AVENUE 5/SELETAR ROAD/YIO CHU KANG ROAD Singapore United Estates Pte Ltd 782 0 76 706 na
MICHAELS' RESIDENCES ALMOND STREET B+M Avenue Pte Ltd 40 10 30 0 2016
PALACIO LORONG M TELOK KURAU Residenza Pte Ltd 21 0 0 21 na
PALMS @ SIXTH AVENUE SIXTH AVENUE MCL Land (Serangoon) Pte Ltd 32 0 32 0 na
PAVILION PARK (PHASE 1D) BUKIT BATOK ROAD Bukit Batok Development Pte Ltd 37 0 2 35 na
PAVILION PARK (PHASE 2) BUKIT BATOK ROAD Bukit Batok Development Pte Ltd 184 0 2 182 na
POETS VILLAS TAGORE AVENUE Feature Green Pte Ltd 40 0 40 0 2015
SEAHILL WEST COAST CRESCENT Boo Han Holdings Pte Ltd 454 0 0 18 na
STRATA HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (PHASE 1) ANG MO KIO AVENUE 5 Fairview Developments Pte Ltd 118 0 18 100 2015
THE LOOKOUT PARBURY AVENUE Urban Park Pte Ltd 28 1 6 21 na
THE SEAWIND LORONG M TELOK KURAU Bayshore Green Pte Ltd 222 0 0 23 na
THE SPRINGSIDE JALAN ULU SELETAR/SEMBAWANG ROAD Kallang Development Pte Ltd 213 0 0 153 na
THE VISION WEST COAST CRESCENT Grand Waterfront Development Pte Ltd 295 0 0 14 na
THE WHITLEY RESIDENCES WHITLEY ROAD Hoi Hup Realty Pte Ltd 61 0 58 3 na
THE WOODS WESTWOOD AVENUE Chappelis Pte Ltd 93 0 2 91 2014
THOMSON GRAND SIN MING WALK Luxury Green Development Pte Ltd 361 0 0 22 na
WATERCOVE VILLE SEMBAWANG ROAD Sembawang Estates Pte Ltd 80 0 4 76 na
WHITE COVE PONGGOL SEVENTEENTH AVENUE Tai Lai Holdings Pte Ltd 17 17 0 0 na
WOODHAVEN WOODGROVE AVENUE Tampines Court Pte Ltd 337 0 0 39 na

wind30

11-05-13, 21:45

Another new info for me, my maths teacher has been teaching me all the wrong calculation. 86% is equal to 1 in 5 bought for investment as oppose to 1 in 8.6 . Good observation :scared-5:

duh... it is not 1 in 8.6. your maths also not very good.....

Ringo33

11-05-13, 23:26

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....The same old #@!$ again. No matter what or how you try to twist and turn, the real fact is landed houses are increasing at a much lower pace than the increase of population. Currently there are 5.2 million people with 70000 landed houses. By 2030, we shall have 6.9 million people and 75000 landed houses. And by 2050 (when you are 70), the population will be 10 million and the number of landed houses may be around 80000. I do not think the number of landed houses (especially FREEHOLD ones) will increase significantly like Condo and HDB apartments.

So Ringo, when you are 70, do you think you can afford a landed house? You better wake up earlier before it is too late for you.

from now till 2030, I can assure you that there will be at least 2 economic crisis that will bring the landed property price back to earth. It has happen in the past and it will happen again and again and again.

what is more important for me is that, living in landed property in Singapore is no a necessity and neither is my goal because in a country where land and car is so expensive, I would rather live in a condo with all the condo facilities to keep myself active during my golden years and to continue collecting rental from my investment properties, instead of locking myself up in a landed property.

As I have said before, if someone has got $4m on hand, he or she will be better off buying 3 or 4 condo for investment. With the rental (e.g 3k x 4) he could easily use 8K from rent to rent a landed property and still have around 3-4K of cash income to enjoy his retirement.

proper-t

11-05-13, 23:40

from now till 2030, I can assure you that there will be at least 2 economic crisis that will bring the landed property price back to earth. It has happen in the past and it will happen again and again and again.

what is more important for me is that, living in landed property in Singapore is no a necessity and neither is my goal because in a country where land and car is so expensive, I would rather live in a condo with all the condo facilities to keep myself active during my golden years and to continue collecting rental from my investment properties, instead of locking myself up in a landed property.

As I have said before, if someone has got $4m on hand, he or she will be better off buying 3 or 4 condo for investment. With the rental (e.g 3k x 4) he could easily use 8K from rent to rent a landed property and still have around 3-4K of cash income to enjoy his retirement.

Not interested to hear your sob story or your sad aspirations.

What is relevant to this thread is that you have proven that the bulk of the landed owners tend to buy for their own stay (86% in fact based on your data and the latest Q1 2013 stock of landed).

Keep it up.

sgbuyer

12-05-13, 00:25

from now till 2030, I can assure you that there will be at least 2 economic crisis that will bring the landed property price back to earth.

Ah, so u disagree with the 3rd eye? :p

iwantland

12-05-13, 05:46

duh... it is not 1 in 8.6. your maths also not very good.....
My bad, 1.4 in 10.... I make a mistake. I admit it. :ashamed1:

iwantland

12-05-13, 05:55

from now till 2030, I can assure you that there will be at least 2 economic crisis that will bring the landed property price back to earth. It has happen in the past and it will happen again and again and again.

.
A crisis would probably cause most property price to fall and not just landed. So unless you can prove otherwise. i see no purpose in targeting landed.

MLP

12-05-13, 07:16

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....I also hope that your prophecy will come true because many existing landed property owners here are also waiting for the prices to come down in order to buy more landed properties before they run out.

So Ringo, no matter how to turn and twist, you will still end up a loser! :cheers6:

from now till 2030, I can assure you that there will be at least 2 economic crisis that will bring the landed property price back to earth. It has happen in the past and it will happen again and again and again.

what is more important for me is that, living in landed property in Singapore is no a necessity and neither is my goal because in a country where land and car is so expensive, I would rather live in a condo with all the condo facilities to keep myself active during my golden years and to continue collecting rental from my investment properties, instead of locking myself up in a landed property.

As I have said before, if someone has got $4m on hand, he or she will be better off buying 3 or 4 condo for investment. With the rental (e.g 3k x 4) he could easily use 8K from rent to rent a landed property and still have around 3-4K of cash income to enjoy his retirement.

thomaspaine

12-05-13, 11:11

heehee

12-05-13, 11:25

I am old man, cannot live landed because scare of climbing stairs, scare of dengue, too big cannot manage, ...
With significant aging & these old people likely to sell landed to younger people, sure have supply to meet demand.

I was actually one of those guys who was contemplating a switch to landed from my condo .... Until CM7 struck and then my dream vanished.

If only I had those URA statistics about landed housing composition 15/18 years ago - I would have just locked into landed.:banghead:

DC33_2008

12-05-13, 11:36

Thought elderly will not want to move out from landed when they aged as they are so used to the surrounding and miss their own garden.
I am old man, cannot live landed because scare of climbing stairs, scare of dengue, too big cannot manage, ...
With significant aging & these old people likely to sell landed to younger people, sure have supply to meet demand.

heehee

12-05-13, 11:51

Many be reality is different from what you hear. Most of my friends of my generation have either moved from landed to condo or planning to do so.

Thought elderly will not want to move out from landed when they aged as they are so used to the surrounding and miss their own garden.

Ringo33

12-05-13, 12:20

A crisis would probably cause most property price to fall and not just landed. So unless you can prove otherwise. i see no purpose in targeting landed.

I have already said before. the difference is whether you are falling down from 20th storey or 3rd storey. One will mean instant death while the other could cause you to break a few bones.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7669/uraq113.png

Ringo33

12-05-13, 12:31

I am old man, cannot live landed because scare of climbing stairs, scare of dengue, too big cannot manage, ...
With significant aging & these old people likely to sell landed to younger people, sure have supply to meet demand.

the days of having multi generation living under the same roof is over. Now a days most couple would choose live by themselves in HDB or condo rather than having to live with their father mother brother sister in laws in big house.

As someone has said, maintaining landed property is not cheap and if you are retiree with limited saving for retirement, then why bother to live in landed property when most of the time you are confining yourself to living on the ground floor. And worst if you are living far away from public transport and amenities.

myfirstpc

12-05-13, 12:38

the days of having multi generation living under the same roof is over. Now a days most couple would choose live by themselves in HDB or condo rather than having to live with their father mother brother sister in laws in big house.

As someone has said, maintaining landed property is not cheap and if you are retiree with limited saving for retirement, then why bother to live in landed property when most of the time you are confining yourself to living on the ground floor. And worst if you are living far away from public transport and amenities.

My sentiments are exactly. Mobility becomes the main consideration as we get older.

Ringo33

12-05-13, 12:38

Thought elderly will not want to move out from landed when they aged as they are so used to the surrounding and miss their own garden.

this alo applies to hdb and condo. No elderly would like to be up rooted from their own kampong when they are old. But if you have no savings and living alone, they might have no choice to cash out the landed property and live a more comfortable retirement life in a condo instead of locking themselves in their landed property.

Ringo33

12-05-13, 12:45

My sentiments are exactly. Mobility becomes the main consideration as we get older.

for retirees the advantage of living in condo is you have got more neighbours to hang out, free bus service to bring them to market or MRT station, got facilities like pool, gym, tennis court etc at their door steps to keep them active.

wind30

12-05-13, 13:03

wind30

12-05-13, 13:10

imagine you people are depending on people getting old and then selling away their landed for new supply....

duh how many such units there are. bottomline, almost no new landed launches..

look at the condo launches... you think there will be more condo upgraders or more old landed owners downgrading...

no matter how u look at it, landed is scarce. but the prices now is very high...

Ringo33

12-05-13, 13:10

do you know where the dengue hotspots are? landed due to low pop density is probably very safe

mosquito is always a problem for landed property regardless dengue or now. thats why most of the time, they are sleeping with all the window close at night.

wind30

12-05-13, 13:12

mosquito is always a problem for landed property regardless dengue or now. thats why most of the time, they are sleeping with all the window close at night.

nothing to argue. go to moh website and check dengue hotspot.

duh... does living in apartment means no mosquitoes? then how u explain all the hotspots

Ringo33

12-05-13, 13:15

Ringo33

12-05-13, 13:19

nothing to argue. go to moh website and check dengue hotspot.

duh... does living in apartment means no mosquitoes? then how u explain all the hotspots

very rarely do I see mosquitoes in my apartment, perhaps this is due to regular mosquito fogging that we have in our estate.

I am not sure how often do they do fogging in landed estate or who actually pay for them?

proper-t

12-05-13, 13:58

very rarely do I see mosquitoes in my apartment, perhaps this is due to regular mosquito fogging that we have in our estate.

I am not sure how often do they do fogging in landed estate or who actually pay for them?

With your type of hygiene practice, no wonder even mosquitoes avoid your apartment. The fact that your estate has regular fogging means that it has probably been identified as a dengue hotspot.

BUT I would rather go to my condo gym for a good and complet workout and then jump into the jacuzzi to relax myself.

Luckily, I am not staying in the same condo as you. The jacuzzi water must b very unhygienic. Next time, plse shower first before you jump into the jacuzzi. Be considerate!

hyenergix

12-05-13, 14:02

It is the construction sites - NE and E where many condos and ECs are being constructed. http://www.dengue.gov.sg/

DC33_2008

12-05-13, 14:49

Do they sell them or pass them onto the next generation?
Many be reality is different from what you hear. Most of my friends of my generation have either moved from landed to condo or planning to do so.

proper-t

12-05-13, 15:28

Many be reality is different from what you hear. Most of my friends of my generation have either moved from landed to condo or planning to do so.

But TS has already proven it with data from rental statistics that the bulk of landed owners tend to stay in their landed and not rent it out. (86% in fact, based on his data and latest total stock of landed). Perhaps you could take up how you view reality with him.

proper-t

12-05-13, 15:57

As an add-on to statement above, what TS posted below seem to contradict your statement as less people seem to be selling. So looks like landed owners doesn't seem to be renting or selling.

If you want facts, here are some for you to think about.

2012 District 10,11 and 12
Average psf of landed property sold : $1405psf
Average transaction per month : 29

2013 (Jan to Apr)
Average psf of landed property sold : $1273 psf
Average transaction per month : 19 (Jan to Mar)

wind30

12-05-13, 16:12

Actually there are still new supply of landed property in Singapore, one example is the new site at coronation which it up for tender this quarter.

I never say zero supply. Seriously, how many landed sites are there now for sale by the government?

And those are all 99 years right? Is there any freehold landed launches? For freehold condos, you still can enbloc because there is a committee and the majority can force the minority to sell.

For freehold landed.... I wonder if there is any supply once the "old" land get sold off, like luxus hills.

Ringo33

12-05-13, 19:25

I never say zero supply. Seriously, how many landed sites are there now for sale by the government?

And those are all 99 years right? Is there any freehold landed launches? For freehold condos, you still can enbloc because there is a committee and the majority can force the minority to sell.

For freehold landed.... I wonder if there is any supply once the "old" land get sold off, like luxus hills.

Actually looking at the recent transaction it seems like strata landed property is gain popularity among buyers. I am not sure why, perhaps because of lifestyle, perhaps its cheaper (psf build up), or perhaps its easier for find tenants if they are buying for investment.

FH supply got. Big land split into smaller plot, build higher etc. Instead of just looking at Singapore, you might also want to include landed in Malaysia because more and more expat and Singaporeans working in Singapore are now living in landed property in Iskandar.

Ringo33

12-05-13, 19:26

Do they sell them or pass them onto the next generation?

If you have say 3 kids, 2 married and 1 single how are you going pass it down to them?

proper-t

12-05-13, 20:04

Actually looking at the recent transaction it seems like strata landed property is gain popularity among buyers. I am not sure why, perhaps because of lifestyle, perhaps its cheaper (psf build up), or perhaps its easier for find tenants if they are buying for investment.

FH supply got. Big land split into smaller plot, build higher etc. Instead of just looking at Singapore, you might also want to include landed in Malaysia because more and more expat and Singaporeans working in Singapore are now living in landed property in Iskandar.

For the past 15 years, the total stock of landed only went up from 63K in 1997 to 70K as at Q1 2013.

Please explain why the growth rate is so miniscule since the govt had free rein to release land for landed and people in the past could have sub-divided large plots as you so claimed.

wind30

12-05-13, 20:52

FH supply got. Big land split into smaller plot, build higher etc. Instead of just looking at Singapore, you might also want to include landed in Malaysia because more and more expat and Singaporeans working in Singapore are now living in landed property in Iskandar.

?? Big land split into smaller plot?? that is hard to get.... if you have to rely on this....

err... build higher?? I never see anyone sell a landed property as 1st floor, 2nd floor...

include land in malaysia?? Might as well include batam, bintan, etc :)

bottomline is there REALLY is not much supply and arguing more about this will just make one look stupid. I agree though landed prices now is VERY VERY HIGH and probably overpriced. I guess people sort of know that the supply is non-existent and has factored it into today's prices.

Ringo33

13-05-13, 03:31

?? Big land split into smaller plot?? that is hard to get.... if you have to rely on this....

err... build higher?? I never see anyone sell a landed property as 1st floor, 2nd floor...

include land in malaysia?? Might as well include batam, bintan, etc :)

bottomline is there REALLY is not much supply and arguing more about this will just make one look stupid. I agree though landed prices now is VERY VERY HIGH and probably overpriced. I guess people sort of know that the supply is non-existent and has factored it into today's prices.

there are no new supply of FH land for sure. But in terms of number of units, it is still growing because small time developers are still converting big detach houses into smaller plot or semi D.

Plus government are still releasing LH land for strata landed development. Typical a strata landed property has got 4 floor, basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor and roof terrace. as compared to more landed which is only 2.5 floor.

Why Iskandar? Thats because expat working in Singapore are starting to move their family to Iskandar, hence shifting demand from Singapore to Iskandar. Or you can see that as new supply of landed property targeting Singapore expat. And this will have an impact on the demand for landed property in Singapore.

As for Batam, they are only good for holiday home, thats why I dont consider them in the equation.

MLP

13-05-13, 06:42

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....You are really good at twisting and turning, aren't you? If you want to bring in Iskandar into your equation, please start a new thread. I can assure you these are two very different classes of houses.

In fact, the number of FREEHOLD landed houses are shrinking not expanding. Why? Because many FH landed houses on land with plot ratio 1.4 have been converted into condominium. Places like Kovan for example, have seen many landed houses converted into low rise condominium. So I don't buy your statement that FH landed houses are increasing.

there are no new supply of FH land for sure. But in terms of number of units, it is still growing because small time developers are still converting big detach houses into smaller plot or semi D.

Plus government are still releasing LH land for strata landed development. Typical a strata landed property has got 4 floor, basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor and roof terrace. as compared to more landed which is only 2.5 floor.

Why Iskandar? Thats because expat working in Singapore are starting to move their family to Iskandar, hence shifting demand from Singapore to Iskandar. Or you can see that as new supply of landed property targeting Singapore expat. And this will have an impact on the demand for landed property in Singapore.

As for Batam, they are only good for holiday home, thats why I dont consider them in the equation.

proper-t

13-05-13, 09:03

Rysk

13-05-13, 11:08

If is more or less confirmed that 86% landed are for own stay.. then we should close this thread..

Otherwise.. this rental yield on landed pty keep coming back.. never ending..

Seems like TS is more interested talking about rental yield for landed pty.. just to prove its price is indeed coming down fast :sleep:

:D

Ringo33

13-05-13, 11:23

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....You are really good at twisting and turning, aren't you? If you want to bring in Iskandar into your equation, please start a new thread. I can assure you these are two very different classes of houses.

In fact, the number of FREEHOLD landed houses are shrinking not expanding. Why? Because many FH landed houses on land with plot ratio 1.4 have been converted into condominium. Places like Kovan for example, have seen many landed houses converted into low rise condominium. So I don't buy your statement that FH landed houses are increasing.

To be honest I dont really have the details and I believe neither do you know have many units are being enbloc for low rise condo vs big landed property land being redeveloped into several small plots.

However the fact is that supply of landed property has increase from 63k since 1997 to 70+k, since 1997, around 14%. As know as we know this is a fact, there is actually no need to argue or speculate about the details actually.

Ringo33

13-05-13, 11:24

proper-t

13-05-13, 11:36

you are right. as least now we know that 1 in 5 landed property today in the market are for investment.

Your attempts to sugarcoat your points are so laughable.

1 in 5 = 20% which is a far cry from 14%. Its not even 1 in 6 which is 17%.

Just close the thread and admit that your rental yield argument doesn't hold at all.

Rysk

13-05-13, 11:49

Your attempts to sugarcoat your points are so laughable.

1 in 5 = 20% which is a far cry from 14%. Its not even 1 in 6 which is 17%.

Just close the thread and admit that your rental yield argument doesn't hold at all.

If base on ratio... approx. is 1:6..
Out of 7 portion.. 1 is not for own stay.. & 6 is for own stay..

Jaykj

13-05-13, 11:49

you are right. as least now we know that 1 in 5 landed property today in the market are for investment.

Did you fail your math? 1-5 is not 14%. And secondly, even if the stats is right, the yield of the 14% is based on current price level. Nobody knows how many of the 14% are fully-paid up landed, 80% paid-up or 20% paid up. In any case, max is 14%, no big deal...can be easily absorb by MNCs CEOs, CFOs other FTs who loves landed or locals like rahad....:D

Rysk

13-05-13, 12:03

Let say the final answer is ratio 1:6

So at a ratio of 1:6.. Is that the reason why "Land Storm is Coming"?? :D

Ringo33

13-05-13, 12:15

Let say the final answer is ratio 1:6

So at a ratio of 1:6.. Is that the reason why "Land Storm is Coming"?? :D

Average price of landed property transacted : 3.9m
Average household income of landed property : $25K
Average rent of landed property : $8k

Once you do your math, you will know why.

Ringo33

13-05-13, 12:19

Did you fail your math? 1-5 is not 14%. And secondly, even if the stats is right, the yield of the 14% is based on current price level. Nobody knows how many of the 14% are fully-paid up landed, 80% paid-up or 20% paid up. In any case, max is 14%, no big deal...can be easily absorb by MNCs CEOs, CFOs other FTs who loves landed or locals like rahad....:D

There is no denying that the property boom we see today is created by cheap mortgage, so if you would to count the number of transaction over the past say 3 to 4 years, you will be able to guess how many of these landed property fully paid up.

With current mortgage rate, it will be foolish for any property investor to now leverage on their property.

Rysk

13-05-13, 12:47

Average price of landed property transacted : 3.9m
Average household income of landed property : $25K
Average rent of landed property : $8k

Once you do your math, you will know why.

Base on the above.. So you are just referring to the "14%" (ratio of 1:6)..
Ok.. and out of this 14%.. how many are on negative rental yield (cannot cover their instalment)? No way to know right??

And what is the implication if to combine these 2? Is that the reason why "Land Storm is Coming"?? :beats-me-man:

Frankly speaking, till now I still don't understand what you are trying to prove.. :D

thomaspaine

13-05-13, 13:17

Average price of landed property transacted : 3.9m
Average household income of landed property : $25K
Average rent of landed property : $8k

Once you do your math, you will know why.

Hi Ringo

The average price of landed property transacted you claim is 3.9m :

1. Pre-2007 : Most of the owners here bought landed at 300-800psf (of land) where 80pct financing was still prevalent. They are definitely in a comfortable postition.

2. Post 2011/12 buyers of landed properties ( i am guessing 20pct of the landed stock) have to fork out 40pct downpayment. I am sure this group of buyers have a very different earning capacity.

The math to this whole equation is not as straight forward as the way you put it.

Rysk

13-05-13, 13:28

Since we already concluded that 86% are for own stay.. just close this thread.

I think Ringo is just finding ways to prove that price for landed pty is indeed falling starting from Q1 2013..
So no need to "twist & turn & divert attention" away too much.. Best is go back to discussion on why "Land Storm is Coming" :rolleyes:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17582&page=19

:D

lajia

13-05-13, 14:07

wa bro, u attacking like u attacking B....:D

Base on the above.. So you are just referring to the "14%" (ratio of 1:6)..
Ok.. and out of this 14%.. how many are on negative rental yield (cannot cover their instalment)? No way to know right??

And what is the implication if to combine these 2? Is that the reason why "Land Storm is Coming"?? :beats-me-man:

Frankly speaking, till now I still don't understand what you are trying to prove.. :D

lajia

13-05-13, 14:11

his math is all wrong but he dont care because he is quite clear about his objective.....strange guy.

ppl will likely over leverage for investment purposes. but if landed is not so much about renting out, then why ppl still over leverage? even if yes, the % would be extremely small....ppl rather buy a few more MM to rent out as I pointed out earlier. he just dont make any sense...:2cents:

over leveraging likely to be in Condo segment...:2cents:

Hi Ringo

The average price of landed property transacted you claim is 3.9m :

1. Pre-2007 : Most of the owners here bought landed at 300-800psf (of land) where 80pct financing was still prevalent. They are definitely in a comfortable postition.

2. Post 2011/12 buyers of landed properties ( i am guessing 20pct of the landed stock) have to fork out 40pct downpayment. I am sure this group of buyers have a very different earning capacity.

The math to this whole equation is not as straight forward as the way you put it.

Jaykj

13-05-13, 14:53

There is no denying that the property boom we see today is created by cheap mortgage, so if you would to count the number of transaction over the past say 3 to 4 years, you will be able to guess how many of these landed property fully paid up.

With current mortgage rate, it will be foolish for any property investor to now leverage on their property.

Ppty boom or not, you are wrong to assume the 14% of rental were bought in the last 3-4 years. Does it make sense to you that the rental landed units were ALL bought in the last 3-4 years? Of coz not :D

You are suffering from info overload and just like a young grad analyst, you are unable to pick out the relevant data. Worse...you try to form a hypothesis which has no correlation. Amusing :p

Rysk

13-05-13, 15:34

Ppty boom or not, you are wrong to assume the 14% of rental were bought in the last 3-4 years. Does it make sense to you that the rental landed units were ALL bought in the last 3-4 years? Of coz not :D

You are suffering from info overload and just like a young grad analyst, you are unable to pick out the relevant data. Worse...you try to form a hypothesis which has no correlation. Amusing :p

Sometimes all these facts & figures or even charts just won't work.. that's why some analyst talked BIG BIG using facts & nice charts.. end up also go MIA..

You bring me merry go round.. talk what rental yield.. what fundamental.. also no use to me

Very simple!! Just go straight to the point & estimate when will be the next "recession" that's all.. & I will sell everything including my underwear in advance.. simple as that.. :D

bullman

13-05-13, 15:38

Ringo33

13-05-13, 22:55

Hi Ringo

The average price of landed property transacted you claim is 3.9m :

1. Pre-2007 : Most of the owners here bought landed at 300-800psf (of land) where 80pct financing was still prevalent. They are definitely in a comfortable postition.

2. Post 2011/12 buyers of landed properties ( i am guessing 20pct of the landed stock) have to fork out 40pct downpayment. I am sure this group of buyers have a very different earning capacity.

The math to this whole equation is not as straight forward as the way you put it.

What is missing from your post are buyers from 2007 to 2010. As for earning capacity, 2012 average household income of landed property is $25K. yes, some might be as low as 10k while others might run into >100k

Ringo33

13-05-13, 23:00

Ppty boom or not, you are wrong to assume the 14% of rental were bought in the last 3-4 years. Does it make sense to you that the rental landed units were ALL bought in the last 3-4 years? Of coz not :D

You are suffering from info overload and just like a young grad analyst, you are unable to pick out the relevant data. Worse...you try to form a hypothesis which has no correlation. Amusing :p

How much you paid for your landed property in the past has got no bearing on what future buyer is going to pay for your property when you decide to sell. When we talk about price correction, we are talking about price correction from today's price, not historical price. And the equation of affordability should be about current price and current household income, not current income with historical price.

Ringo33

13-05-13, 23:04

Plus government are still releasing LH land for strata landed development. Typical a strata landed property has got 4 floor, basement, 1st floor, 2nd floor and roof terrace. as compared to more landed which is only 2.5 floor.

This is hilarious. You seem ignorant to the fact that you can build a basement on most landed property as well. In areas whereby its not allowed, it applies to any strata landed as well. The same applies for the number of levels that one can build regardless of landed or strata landed. Spend some time to read the FACTS on URA.

Why Iskandar? Thats because expat working in Singapore are starting to move their family to Iskandar, hence shifting demand from Singapore to Iskandar. Or you can see that as new supply of landed property targeting Singapore expat. And this will have an impact on the demand for landed property in Singapore.

Another hilarious comment, do you even have facts and figures on the number of expats living in SG landed migrating to Iskandar Landed? Again, you seem ignorant that the expats living in SG landed are normally at the upper management level, and they do not just "shift" over to Iskandar just like that.

Nobody is talking about whether landed property can have basement or not. I am just saying that for strata landed, there are usually 4 level, thats why developer can squeeze more units out of smaller plot of land, hence more new supply in terms of number of units.

Do I have facts and figure? Unfortunately I dont, but if you would to go the 2nd link at around 8am to 9am in the morning, you will be able to see many Singapore cars driving into Singapore to work. And where do they stay? landed property in Iskandar.

proper-t

14-05-13, 00:32

Do I have facts and figure? Unfortunately I dont, but if you would to go the 2nd link at around 8am to 9am in the morning, you will be able to see many Singapore cars driving into Singapore to work. And where do they stay? landed property in Iskandar.

Wow, so now we know how you arrived at your conclusions. Standing at the 2nd link counting SG registered cars between 8 to 9am.

Your 'fans' here can't wait for your next revelation on how you derive your other ideas or notions.

hillviewer

14-05-13, 00:46

I live in a landed and I didn't buy it for investment. I bought it because I want a bigger place.

Honestly speaking, I don't think the prices of landed are falling. I viewed a few leasehold landed recently and the asking prices are still high. What is shocking is that the transacted prices are high too. People are still buying even though they are 99-year leasehold landed!

So will it fall? I don't know? The supply of new landed properties in Singapore is little compared to the condos. Moreover, these new landed properties are having a 99-year tenure.

That just makes freehold and 999-year leasehold landed rarer.

My opinion is that those who buy landed properties are mostly for their own stay. Why do I say that?

It is very simple. Most of my neighbours? They are all owners and those who rent out their other properties, they are usually condos.

Hillviewer...

Ringo33

14-05-13, 00:58

wind30

14-05-13, 07:06

Nobody is talking about whether landed property can have basement or not. I am just saying that for strata landed, there are usually 4 level, thats why developer can squeeze more units out of smaller plot of land, hence more new supply in terms of number of units.

Do I have facts and figure? Unfortunately I dont, but if you would to go the 2nd link at around 8am to 9am in the morning, you will be able to see many Singapore cars driving into Singapore to work. And where do they stay? landed property in Iskandar.

sigh... do you know how much a landed property cost in Iskandar??? Frankly, those people who stay in Iskandar can only afford HDB resale. They are not and never was in the market for a landed property. If any, it will affect HDB resale demand...

I can never understand how you equate a landed in Iskandar with one in Singapore. The price difference is so big and are totally different things.

PS: you should REALLY change your signature quote...

Rysk

14-05-13, 08:17

the same theory can be apply to any limited resources like gold, silver etc.
However when prices rises too quickly, it will bound to have correction because of basic economic fundamental.

As I have pointed out the average price of landed property is around 3.9m today, and if average income of landed household remain at 25k per month, it will be very difficult for price to sustain at this level.

All signs are pointing towards a correction soon. Transaction volume is falling, rental is falling, income is not growing, and very soon, interest rate will be rising.

Don't have to worry too much by compare average income vs average price for landed owner..

Majority of the landed pty are not recent build.. and unlike condo new launch keep coming.. Many of the landed pty were bought by older generation.. meaning is dirt cheap..
Many passed down from generation to generation for those FH one.

No meaning keep saying average income of landed household remain at 25k per month, when you don't even know how much they paid for (cos 3.9m is talking about now.. not the past)
If you are referring to those who bought it last 1-yr (if you think they are overleveraged) base on price for landed 3.9m & income 25k per mth.. then is how many pct?

I'm not saying price will not come down.. it can just move side way..
You notice each price correction nothing to do with fundamental.. is the sentiment which cos by recession..

Ringo33

14-05-13, 11:34

[quote=wind30]sigh... do you know how much a landed property cost in Iskandar??? Frankly, those people who stay in Iskandar can only afford HDB resale. They are not and never was in the market for a landed property. If any, it will affect HDB resale demand...

I can never understand how you equate a landed in Iskandar with one in Singapore. The price difference is so big and are totally different things.

PS: you should REALLY change your signature quote...[/quote

Yes, i know, the empty plot of land at leisure farm and Ledang height is about $1.5m singapore dollar and it will cost around $1m or so to build up if you wish. But I was recently told that many land sellers are pulling off the market as they expect price to rise.

There are also ready build detached houses in gated community that cost around 2 to 2.5m riggit. So I am not sure where you get the idea that people who live in Iskandar can only afford resale hdb flat.

Perhaps you should take a drive to Iskandar to see for yourself. I think after that visit, you might feel understand why landed property demand in Singapore might be under thread.

And please do not judge a person's wealthy by where they live, what they wear or what car they drive, because there are people who are just smarter with money

Ringo33

14-05-13, 11:40

Don't have to worry too much by compare average income vs average price for landed owner..

Majority of the landed pty are not recent build.. and unlike condo new launch keep coming.. Many of the landed pty were bought by older generation.. meaning is dirt cheap..
Many passed down from generation to generation for those FH one.

No meaning keep saying average income of landed household remain at 25k per month, when you don't even know how much they paid for (cos 3.9m is talking about now.. not the past)
If you are referring to those who bought it last 1-yr (if you think they are overleveraged) base on price for landed 3.9m & income 25k per mth.. then is how many pct?

I'm not saying price will not come down.. it can just move side way..
You notice each price correction nothing to do with fundamental.. is the sentiment which cos by recession..

nobody is interested in knowing how much you bought your landed property in the past, because the market the government is only interested to know what is the current price and how the price will move in the next few years.

Before making any further comments, perhaps you should look through the URA transaction record for the past few years as well as BCA record on landed property going through rebuilding and A&A.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Jaykj

14-05-13, 12:08

How much you paid for your landed property in the past has got no bearing on what future buyer is going to pay for your property when you decide to sell. When we talk about price correction, we are talking about price correction from today's price, not historical price. And the equation of affordability should be about current price and current household income, not current income with historical price.

All along you have been shouting `landed prices crashing'.....thus it has all to do with historical price because if the purchase price is low, people can afford to hold and will not sell even if price drop unless need to to liquidate on an individual case.

I agree current price is only relevant for current buyers but just because current buyers (you?) can't afford, doesn't mean:

1) Other's can't afford as we have a bigger pool of NCs who can afford (whether you like it or not)

2) That price will drop/ crash coz like i mentioned its irrelevant to the owner who bought at historical price and can hold.

Do you think I care that you can't afford? I'll look for another buyer and in the meantime, I'll rent it out since my holding cost is much lower than current price.

Jaykj

14-05-13, 12:16

What is missing from your post are buyers from 2007 to 2010. As for earning capacity, 2012 average household income of landed property is $25K. yes, some might be as low as 10k while others might run into >100k

Even better, if you consider those who bought in 2007, landed was way cheaper back then! Ming Teck Park Inter-Ter was `only' $1.6m. Clover < $1m, Serangoon Gdn Corner Ter (land only) $850k for 2,600 sqf land. You tell me how to crash to this kinda of prices?

Sorry lah....you have missed the landed boat, period. You probably have some OCR condos or some other condos and hope to switch to Landed as you know its still safer and better to keep landed....but the rest of the world also not stupid lah :D

14-05-13, 14:08

Rysk

14-05-13, 14:27

nobody is interested in knowing how much you bought your landed property in the past, because the market the government is only interested to know what is the current price and how the price will move in the next few years.

Before making any further comments, perhaps you should look through the URA transaction record for the past few years as well as BCA record on landed property going through rebuilding and A&A.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing

Of course for you.. you will definitely try to avoid to know how much ppl bought for their landed home.. (cos majority bought it cheap.. if base on current average income of 25k per mth for landed pty owners)

Don't waste too much time finding ways to prove..

As I said before.. just go straight & estimate & tell me when will be the next recession.. that's all..
Cos every price correction in the history do not link to what URA figures.. what charts.. how many are own stay.. rental yield.. low transacted volume.. rebuilding & A&A.. etc etc etc.. to prove that price is crashing..

iwantland

14-05-13, 15:52

Of course for you.. you will definitely try to avoid to know how much ppl bought for their landed home.. (cos majority bought it cheap.. if base on current average income of 25k per mth for landed pty owners)

Don't waste too much time finding ways to prove..

[/COLOR]

There is an average of 69000 total land stock size from 2009-2011
For supply there is an average of 1731 per year or a total 5193 within the same period. So effectively new houses are just 7.5 % of total stock during the bull run ( not counting 2012 as I do not have stats for that)

Stats found here http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/browse_by_theme/building.html

If that is the case, the majority of homeowners bought way before the bull run and are sitting on comfortable profit. So for R33 to leave out this group of 92.5 % of homeowners is puzzling.

Price may be 3.9 m now, average income is at 25K now, but most landed owners likely bought the houses at half the average price. I would not doubt their holding power given this fact.The current numbers thrown around do not mean anything if this is not taken into account.

Rysk

14-05-13, 16:32

There is an average of 69000 total land stock size from 2009-2011
For supply there is an average of 1731 per year or a total 5193 within the same period. So effectively new houses are just 7.5 % of total stock during the bull run ( not counting 2012 as I do not have stats for that)

Stats found here http://www.singstat.gov.sg/statistics/browse_by_theme/building.html

If that is the case, the majority of homeowners bought way before the bull run and are sitting on comfortable profit. So for R33 to leave out this group of 92.5 % of homeowners is puzzling.

Price may be 3.9 m now, average income is at 25K now, but most landed owners likely bought the houses at half the average price. I would not doubt their holding power given this fact.The current numbers thrown around do not mean anything if this is not taken into account.

That's why I mean..

But R33 will try to ignore to mention this group of 92.5% which bought cheap for their landed pty..

And in fact, those who bought in 2010.. were also consider cheap.. So I can say is 95%.. & so left only 5% which R33 is referring to those who bought at an average of 3.9m with average income of 25k per mth...

And out of this 5%.. 1/6 bought for investment.. & 5/6 is for own stay..
So final balance for investment purpose group is below 1%..

And again.. out of this 1%.. how many is going for capital appreciation.. not for rental yield purpose.. etc etc..

Jaykj

14-05-13, 16:46

That's why I mean..

But R33 will try to ignore to mention this group of 92.5% which bought cheap for their landed pty..

And in fact, those who bought in 2010.. were also consider cheap.. So I can say is 95%.. & so left only 5% which R33 is referring to those who bought at an average of 3.9m with average income of 25k per mth...

And out of this 5%.. 1/6 bought for investment.. & 5/6 is for own stay..
So final balance for investment purpose group is below 1%..

And again.. out of this 1%.. how many is going for capital appreciation.. not for rental yield purpose.. etc etc..

That's why you don't see Landed price crashing! Some people think they are smart while the rest of the world is stupid. But give us credit lah :D Think we are kids :p

lajia

14-05-13, 19:22

That is why he like B, MIA soon....if he dare to say again, then I really admire his 小强 persistence......unfortunately, in a wrong way. :D

That's why you don't see Landed price crashing! Some people think they are smart while the rest of the world is stupid. But give us credit lah :D Think we are kids :p

Ringo33

14-05-13, 19:48

So the argument around here is that if I bought my property 10 years ago and I am sitting on a comfortable profit, then I should not worry if the price come down because I will still be positive?

Why not just give away 50% of your saving in your saving account or take a 50% pay cut, since you know that without that 50%, you will still be ok.

This is perhaps the dumbest argument I could think of to justify an over inflated investment asset.

Imagine what would happen to the private banker if they start telling their clients that since you already sitting on comfortable profit, then you should not be bother about exiting the market because you will still be positive if the price crash by 30%.

Ringo33

14-05-13, 19:49

That's why you don't see Landed price crashing! Some people think they are smart while the rest of the world is stupid. But give us credit lah :D Think we are kids :p

yar right. only in your dreams

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7669/uraq113.png

Rysk

14-05-13, 20:14

This is perhaps the dumbest argument I could think of to justify an over inflated investment asset.

To justify an over inflated investment asset??
Welll. so are you referring to that last 1%?? :D

That's why I mean..

But R33 will try to ignore to mention this group of 92.5% which bought cheap for their landed pty..

And in fact, those who bought in 2010.. were also consider cheap.. So I can say is 95%.. & so left only 5% which R33 is referring to those who bought at an average of 3.9m with average income of 25k per mth...

And out of this 5%.. 1/6 bought for investment.. & 5/6 is for own stay..
So final balance for investment purpose group is below 1%..

And again.. out of this 1%.. how many is going for capital appreciation.. not for rental yield purpose.. etc etc..

Ringo33

14-05-13, 20:18

Well.. if were to justify an over inflated investment asset??
That again.. so are you referring to that last 1%?? :D

Dont expect to simply plug some nice figures from the sky and then use that for argument.

Rysk

14-05-13, 20:22

Dont expect to simply plug some nice figures from the sky and then use that for argument.

Same to you.. simply just plug a figure of average price 3.9m vs average income 25k per mth.. plus use a chart.. telling ppl "Land Storm is Coming" :D

Ringo33

14-05-13, 20:30

Same to you.. simply just plug a figure of average price 3.9m vs average income 25k per mth.. plus use a chart.. telling ppl "Land Storm is Coming" :D

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Rysk

14-05-13, 20:34

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

With lots of "useless" knowledge... is even more dangerous..

proper-t

14-05-13, 21:46

This is perhaps the dumbest argument I could think of to justify an over inflated investment asset.

Nope. The dumbest argument I have heard is from someone who flaunts the apts they own and then shamelessly extols the 'benefits' in the hope of trying to unload these over inflated assets, even to the extent of arguing strenuously that a 3rd IR will be built in the proximity.

Really depends, 2 of my tenant renting my OCR property are actually working in CBD, while my other tenant for my CCR property is actually working in OCR.

Ringo - You own a unit at Botannia right? You can expect more expats flowing to the west with the JLD and new international school.

CCR properties, especially those small units, will always be in demand because when foreigners come to Singapore, they will always search from the City Center first before moving out to other region, the same principle when we try to search for hotels when we go for holiday.

If you want rental yield, get those small units next to MRT. You can never go wrong with that

No money still want to act atas for what? Just buy a OCR condo lah. Recommend you buy Jurong west next to rulang primary school. Relatively affordable and plenty of upside due to jld.

The best place to invest in D5 now is Monterey Park and Botannia because

1) West Coast MRT interchange on CRL will be located right at their door steps. .

2) Gov will most likely release those empty 99LH land next to Botanna after the announcement of MRT station. Price of both MP and Botannia will sure sky rocket because they are 999LH.

3) West Coast MRT interchange will most likely get connected to Circle Line via West Coast highway to support the southern city growth region.[/quote

[quote=Ringo33]If there is ever going to be another IR, it will have to be at JLD and no where else.

Ringo33

15-05-13, 02:26

With lots of "useless" knowledge... is even more dangerous..

thats is very true. especially when people starts to pluck from the sky.

If you disagree, then perhaps you could show us how you derived those numbers.

proper-t

15-05-13, 08:34

thats is very true. especially when people starts to pluck from the sky.

If you disagree, then perhaps you could show us how you derived those numbers.

Who is the one plucking from the sky? Or rather from standing at the 2nd link between 8 to 9am.

Do I have facts and figure? Unfortunately I dont, but if you would to go the 2nd link at around 8am to 9am in the morning, you will be able to see many Singapore cars driving into Singapore to work. And where do they stay? landed property in Iskandar.

Rysk

15-05-13, 08:47

thats is very true. especially when people starts to pluck from the sky.

If you disagree, then perhaps you could show us how you derived those numbers.

I'm not too interested about numbers or even charts.. in order to know whether the "Land Storm is Coming"..

By just putting numbers & a simple chart.. is just as useless (eg. by showing ppl average price now 39k & average income per mth 25k and also show ppl the chart telling ppl to see "leg wide wide" is a sign of Land Storm is Coming).. Cos it can't tell you in details.. Did it tell you what is the average income of the last 5% which bought in the last 2-3 years?? Maybe is 35k or 40k per mth?? Don't know right??
And you don't even know whats the thinking or intention of each owner now..
So not that simple lah!

At least TWIST & TURN cum DIVERT ATTENTION DIVERT ATTENTION MR B goes into BIG picture & try predict the next recession.. just that he cannot make it.. that's all

Of course for you.. you will definitely try to avoid to know how much ppl bought for their landed home.. (cos majority bought it cheap.. if base on current average income of 25k per mth for landed pty owners)

Don't waste too much time finding ways to prove..

As I said before.. just go straight & estimate & tell me when will be the next recession.. that's all..
Cos every price correction in the history do not link to what URA figures.. what charts.. how many are own stay.. rental yield.. low transacted volume.. rebuilding & A&A.. etc etc etc.. to prove that price is crashing..

Ringo33

15-05-13, 10:49

I'm not too interested about numbers or even charts.. in order to know whether the "Land Storm is Coming"..

By just putting numbers & a simple chart.. is just as useless (eg. by showing ppl average price now 39k & average income per mth 25k and also show ppl the chart telling ppl to see "leg wide wide" is a sign of Land Storm is Coming).. Cos it can't tell you in details.. Did it tell you what is the average income of the last 5% which bought in the last 2-3 years?? Maybe is 35k or 40k per mth?? Don't know right??
And you don't even know whats the thinking or intention of each owner now..
So not that simple lah!

At least TWIST & TURN cum DIVERT ATTENTION DIVERT ATTENTION MR B goes into BIG picture & try predict the next recession.. just that he cannot make it.. that's all

household income, average price, average rental, and charts are all provided by URA to let the general public of have a better understanding of the property market. For some, they only choose to read and see that they like to see, do it is not surprising that you are think its useless because all signs are pointing towards a correction.

Please stop asking dumb question like what is the average income of the last 5% (what last 5%??) because by doing so, it only show your total lack of understanding on how property market work.

1) Property boom doesnt mean household income boom.
2) Even if you owe the bank $1m and your property is worth $1.5m, once you are behind mortgage, you will also need to force sell your property.
3) For owners who bought it cheap, they might be more incline to sell if they HAVE TO because they can still exit with profit. And that doesnt mean price is not coming down.
4) URA only track transacted price, it doesnt not take into account of the money owner spend on A&A or rebuilding. Hence the average cost of landed property could be even higher.

Again a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

proper-t

15-05-13, 11:20

household income, average price, average rental, and charts are all provided by URA to let the general public of have a better understanding of the property market.

Again a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Household income provided by URA ???

You don't even know the source of your data and what's worse are trying to impute something which has no co-relation.

The household income and expenditure is published by Department of Statistics and the purpose of the report is very clear as stated on page 3 and in the concluding remarks on pg 15.

Please let readers know in which URA report household income is used ?

Looks like your last statement in bold is very apt for yourself.

(Pg 3) I Introduction
This paper highlights the key trends in household income from work, and
presents the impact of the various government schemes on household income in 2012.

(pg 15)
26 Gini coefficients increased slightly in 2012. The provision of the
government’s various schemes improved the income situation of households, with the households in smaller types of dwelling receiving significantly more government transfers than others. This reduced household income disparities, reflected by a lower Gini coefficient after adjusting for government transfers and taxes.

Rysk

15-05-13, 12:24

Please stop asking dumb question like what is the average income of the last 5% (what last 5%??) because by doing so, it only show your total lack of understanding on how property market work.

Again a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

So please stop showing dumb numbers like "average price for landed pty 39k vs average household income of 25k per mth" & a simple chart showing "leg wide wide" & "rental yield" for landed pty.. to conclude that "Land Storm is Coming"..
Because by doing so, it only show you only know so little on how the "Land Storm" comes about..

Worst still.. with lots of knowledge.. but applied it wrongly is so so dangerous thing.. u know :D

Ringo33

15-05-13, 12:31

So please stop showing dumb numbers like "average price for landed pty 39k vs average household income of 25k per mth" & a simple chart showing "leg wide wide" & "rental yield" for landed pty.. to conclude that "Land Storm is Coming"..
Because by doing so, it only show you only know so little on how the "Land Storm" comes about..

Worst still.. with lots of knowledge.. but applied it wrongly is so so dangerous thing.. u know :D

without analyzing those numbers and chart how do you know if you its a wise or foolish investment decision?

Perhaps for those who like to throw darts in the dark, statistic will mean nothing. But that doesnt mean they should deprive others of that information.

information are useless unless you know how to use them.

lajia

15-05-13, 12:33

I thought u won't be back on this thread but really, very surprise ppl can twist and turn and be very stubborn about things.

Ask u so many times has your income doubled since the last 5 yrs when your EC doubled in value, did u have answer for us?? No need to tell me la, answer is NO...
Then, since your household income could be far behind from your mortgage loan prospective, can I assume that you will have a problem servicing your loan when you are out of job or when recession comes? I don't know...why?? because the URA report will not tell me when Ringo33 enter the market and what was his income then....right?? Still urgue?
Property value has more than doubled since the last 5 yrs and u just take average on today's market price, Tao Karc Pie!!! Obviously our income never double ma, so how to deduce from there?? The impt missing info is, when is the entry point!

:2cents:

household income, average price, average rental, and charts are all provided by URA to let the general public of have a better understanding of the property market. For some, they only choose to read and see that they like to see, do it is not surprising that you are think its useless because all signs are pointing towards a correction.

Please stop asking dumb question like what is the average income of the last 5% (what last 5%??) because by doing so, it only show your total lack of understanding on how property market work.

1) Property boom doesnt mean household income boom.
2) Even if you owe the bank $1m and your property is worth $1.5m, once you are behind mortgage, you will also need to force sell your property.
3) For owners who bought it cheap, they might be more incline to sell if they HAVE TO because they can still exit with profit. And that doesnt mean price is not coming down.
4) URA only track transacted price, it doesnt not take into account of the money owner spend on A&A or rebuilding. Hence the average cost of landed property could be even higher.

Again a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Ringo33

15-05-13, 12:55

I thought u won't be back on this thread but really, very surprise ppl can twist and turn and be very stubborn about things.

Ask u so many times has your income doubled since the last 5 yrs when your EC doubled in value, did u have answer for us?? No need to tell me la, answer is NO...
Then, since your household income could be far behind from your mortgage loan prospective, can I assume that you will have a problem servicing your loan when you are out of job or when recession comes? I don't know...why?? because the URA report will not tell me when Ringo33 enter the market and what was his income then....right?? Still urgue?
Property value has more than doubled since the last 5 yrs and u just take average on today's market price, Tao Karc Pie!!! Obviously our income never double ma, so how to deduce from there?? The impt missing info is, when is the entry point!

:2cents:

There is no need to speculate on my income, what I own or where i live, because that is irrelevant to what we are discussing here.

If we study the average household income of condo vs landed, and compare that to average price of condo vs landed, it is pretty obvious that which segment of the market is most likely to suffer worst correction.
And this is not forgetting that price of big quantum condo has already started to retreat since a few quarters ago, and the only smaller bulls left in the market are those landed property owner who are still running around with their eyes closed. transaction for landed property has slowed down drastically, and big detached houses transaction is now hard to come by. What does it tell you?

Like I said before, when the market tanked, all property price will fall, the only difference is if you are falling from 20 storey or 3 storey. One will mean instant death with the other could break a bone or 2.

Before you come out with any theory, please look back into the history and tell us why this time is different (sound familiar? This time is different)

lajia

15-05-13, 13:40

:2cents: u twist and turn well better than Messi...:D
I was trying to point out that u cannot deduce from the URA report as there are missing info, do u agree??

nevermind. Did the report also tell u who got more bullet?? The landed owner or the condo owner, don't have right??
if u have more bullet, or jump down with parachute from 20 storey, I can tell u the one jumping from 3rd storey will die first...this is very critical information right or not? Do u disagree?? :D so many things u don't know and then just hum tum...completely nonsense!

no theory, this is logic...

There is no need to speculate on my income, what I own or where i live, because that is irrelevant to what we are discussing here.

If we study the average household income of condo vs landed, and compare that to average price of condo vs landed, it is pretty obvious that which segment of the market is most likely to suffer worst correction.
And this is not forgetting that price of big quantum condo has already started to retreat since a few quarters ago, and the only smaller bulls left in the market are those landed property owner who are still running around with their eyes closed. transaction for landed property has slowed down drastically, and big detached houses transaction is now hard to come by. What does it tell you?

Like I said before, when the market tanked, all property price will fall, the only difference is if you are falling from 20 storey or 3 storey. One will mean instant death with the other could break a bone or 2.

Before you come out with any theory, please look back into the history and tell us why this time is different (sound familiar? This time is different)

proper-t

15-05-13, 13:46

Like I said before, when the market tanked, all property price will fall, the only difference is if you are falling from 20 storey or 3 storey. One will mean instant death with the other could break a bone or 2.

Before you come out with any theory, please look back into the history and tell us why this time is different (sound familiar? This time is different)

What a sudden change in tune!!!

I recall not so long ago in the 'Land storm' thread, someone said that condos will not be affected and even gave a string of reasons as to why. This twist and turn is not surprising for someone who tries pathetically to turn a 1 in 7 ratio (14%) into 1 in 5 (20%).

The decline in transaction volume and prices for large quantum properties is a clear sign of where the property market has already hit the threshold due to ABSD and LTV restriction.

Unlike landed property, developers for condo can shrink the unit size to make condo more affordable, something that is not possible for most landed property.

Unlikely landed, many are still investing in condo because there is still positive rental yield, for landed property if there are no much potential for capital appreciation, many will choose to cash out instead of holding.

Jaykj

15-05-13, 14:23

What a sudden change in tune!!!

I recall not so long ago in the 'Land storm' thread, someone said that condos will not be affected and even gave a string of reasons as to why. This twist and turn is not surprising for someone who tries pathetically to turn a 1 in 7 ratio (14%) into 1 in 5 (20%).

Wow! I was also surprised Ringo for the 1st time acknowledged `all ppty prices will fall'. This is a significant depature from all his previous assertions!

Actually I'm curious what kind of a person Ringo is in real life....can twist and turn just like that, hahaha.

Rysk

15-05-13, 15:06

household income, average price, average rental, and charts are all provided by URA to let the general public of have a better understanding of the property market.

As you said household income are provided by URA.. then I must say you just pluck from the sky lor..

Ringo33

15-05-13, 18:52

proper-t

15-05-13, 20:56

Wow! I was also surprised Ringo for the 1st time acknowledged `all ppty prices will fall'. This is a significant depature from all his previous assertions!

Actually I'm curious what kind of a person Ringo is in real life....can twist and turn just like that, hahaha.

I strongly urge someone in this forum to quote me for saying that only landed property price will fall during crisis.

As usual, when unable to counter a statement logically, someone will try to put words in people's mouth.

Did Jaykj indicate anywhere in his statement that mentioned specifically that you said "only landed property price will fall during crisis". All he said was that he noticed a significant departure from your previous assertions.

Your previous assertions can be easily shown in the exchange below especially when read in conjunction with lajia's question. Readers here can see clearly the significant change for themselves.

The question you quoted

threshold set by you??
so the condo psf will hit the roof whereby your EC will cost more than landed u mean....landed crash while others keep going....landed u mean 1.5mil to 3mil or 3mil - 7mil or those more than 10mil??
bro, wake up...
anyway, i dont wish to discuss this topic here with u, time wasting. sorry if i have offended u but you are indeed very persistent.

Your answer

The decline in transaction volume and prices for large quantum properties is a clear sign of where the property market has already hit the threshold due to ABSD and LTV restriction.

Unlike landed property, developers for condo can shrink the unit size to make condo more affordable, something that is not possible for most landed property.

Unlikely landed, many are still investing in condo because there is still positive rental yield, for landed property if there are no much potential for capital appreciation, many will choose to cash out instead of holding.

MLP

16-05-13, 06:23

Haha,.....Ringo.....Ringo, you are shooting yourself again and again. Why do you keep talking nonsense in this forum? You are the one who said only land property prices will fall....blah....blah....blah. You have completely lost your creditability. Nobody is believing in you anymore. Like I suggest to you before, it is better for you quit this forum or create a new account in this forum. Hopefully you will talk with more sense with your new account.
:doh:

I strongly urge someone in this forum to quote me for saying that only landed property price will fall during crisis.

leesg123

16-05-13, 13:37

Ringo33

16-05-13, 15:11

Haha,.....Ringo.....Ringo, you are shooting yourself again and again. Why do you keep talking nonsense in this forum? You are the one who said only land property prices will fall....blah....blah....blah. You have completely lost your creditability. Nobody is believing in you anymore. Like I suggest to you before, it is better for you quit this forum or create a new account in this forum. Hopefully you will talk with more sense with your new account.
:doh:

Please refrain from many such pointless comment again and again, because there is nothing inside what you say that is informative nor constructive.

If you disagree with what I said, you should present you case with facts and figures not words of attack

proper-t

16-05-13, 15:56

So, in keeping with title of this thread, since it has already been ascertained that most landed owners (86%) tend to buy for their own stay based on figures supplied by you and the current stock of landed, we should close this thread as there has been nothing informative or constructive from you thus far to contribute further to the discussion.

All we have been hearing from you are diversions as well as attempts to change the figures.

lajia

16-05-13, 16:04

Ya la, he ask this question himself and then he answer himself...well done, after all we manage to direct him to get his own answer.:D

So, in keeping with title of this thread, since it has already been ascertained that most landed owners (86%) tend to buy for their own stay based on figures supplied by you and the current stock of landed, we should close this thread as there has been nothing informative or constructive from you thus far to contribute further to the discussion.

All we have been hearing from you are diversions as well as attempts to change the figures.

proud owner

16-05-13, 18:18

my income has indeed more than doubled since 5 years ago. I have moved on from HDB to Condo and aquired 2 more rental properties along the way. I am not alone, which is why you see our economy booming and property prices keep going up. dont believe never mind. :cheers5:

just curious ... what industry are you in ?

and what level are you in the company ?

I only have knowledge of the financial market ..
NO PAY rise in most banks ( traders) for past 5 yrs ..

those who got a raise are low to mid level support staffs...

MLP

16-05-13, 18:49

Ringo33

16-05-13, 18:57

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....You are really a funny guy. First of all, did you really talk about facts and figures in all your threads? :doh:

All your statements are either wrong or misleading. Like other forumers here said, you are getting very "infamous" in this forum.

Beside the landed property stock figures of 60K, which is from 1997, please tell me which part is wrong and misleading.

Appreciate if you could support yourself with some numbers which you think are more accurate. I repeat, NUMBERS, not some pointless cheap talking.

There has been plenty of talk about landed property are mainly bought for own stay. However a quick check on the URA rental transaction record show that from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013, there are close to 5000 landed rental contract signed. If we use 2 years lease contract as average and include those transaction off URA radar, then we could be looking at at lease 10,000 landed properties in the market for rental.

If we based on the landed property stock of 60,000 in Singapore, this will mean that at least 16% of the landed properties in Singapore are for rent.

Apr12 to Mar 13 average rent was $8100, Q1 2013 average rent is around $7980 per mth. Is this a sign that rental rate for landed property is coming down?

proper-t

16-05-13, 21:11

Beside the landed property stock figures of 60K, which is from 1997, please tell me which part is wrong and misleading.

Appreciate if you could support yourself with some numbers which you think are more accurate. I repeat, NUMBERS, not some pointless cheap talking.

Dear MLP, thanks for setting the bait. Was worried that he would be too embarrassed to show his face but being the total egomaniac, he took it hook, line and sinker.

Ok...let's start on the wrong and misleading (The number in brackets refer to the post # in case you want to refer) :

1. We all know about him using the 97 numbers for the total landed stock.

2 (8). He tried to bump up the number of rented landed from 10K to 13K!

3(8). Next, he tried to fudge the figure even further by stating that 1 in 5 (20%) rented out their landed when the actual was 1 in 7 (14%)

4 (16). Having failed in that attempt, he brings up a total unrelated example whereby he plucks out of thin air an average price of 3.9m (no justifying figure provided) for a landed and tried to show that landed owners cannot justify living in it with a monthly household income of $25K

5 (31). He next brings in his infamous ppi chart again which has totally no relation to the thread title topic and tries to mislead readers away from thread topic.

6. (54). He further brings up another unrelated topic (dengue) saying it is always a problem for landed (no facts or figures)

7. (64). Topic switches to landed supply and he suggests that there is supply from FH landed being split into smaller plots (No facts or figures provided)

8.(68) He next suggests that landed in Malaysia be INCLUDED when considering the supply of landed in SG. His argument being that more and more expat Singaporeans are living in Iskandar (no facts or figures provided). Later says that you can infer a lot of Singaporeans are living in Isakandar by observing the sg registered cars driving through 2nd link in the morning.

9. (78) Tries to mislead readers again by saying that average price of landed = 3.9m and average rent is 8K (both not verified) and implying that landed owners with average monthly income of 25K will face a 'land storm'.

The rest of the pages are where he goes on and on about how landed will crash and keeps repeating stuff which have totally no relation to the thread topic "landed being mostly for own stay."

There are more but I think I have brought up sufficient examples. Thanks again to MLP. I rest my case.

MLP

18-05-13, 08:46

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....Still waiting for your reply/rebuttal for your misleading postings prepared by proper-t above. :beats-me-man:

Property-t, thank you very much for your detailed research of the idiot (this is what he said about himself).

Beside the landed property stock figures of 60K, which is from 1997, please tell me which part is wrong and misleading.

Appreciate if you could support yourself with some numbers which you think are more accurate. I repeat, NUMBERS, not some pointless cheap talking.

Ringo33

18-05-13, 09:19

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....Still waiting for your reply/rebuttal for your misleading postings prepared by proper-t above. :beats-me-man:

Property-t, thank you very much for your detailed research of the idiot (this is what he said about himself).

MLP, please learn to stand on your own 2 feet.

If you wish to use what proper-T has posted to challenge what I said, then please post it yourself as I dont want to end up wasting my time arguing with someone who dont even know what he is posting.

MLP

18-05-13, 12:27

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.... Why shall I waste my time to repeat what proper-t has said to all your misleading posts. If you are really sincere, please answer those questions first before I post my questions to you. :tsk-tsk:

Come on, you can do better than that. No need to cherry pick who to reply and not to reply.

MLP, please learn to stand on your own 2 feet.

If you wish to use what proper-T has posted to challenge what I said, then please post it yourself as I dont want to end up wasting my time arguing with someone who dont even know what he is posting.

Ringo33

18-05-13, 14:03

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.... Why shall I waste my time to repeat what proper-t has said to all your misleading posts. If you are really sincere, please answer those questions first before I post my questions to you. :tsk-tsk:

Come on, you can do better than that. No need to cherry pick who to reply and not to reply.

I think its important to make sure you understand what others was posting, or else I will be wasting my time responding to thing you could claim you didnt say or you dont even have a clue.

MLP

18-05-13, 14:21

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....I don't give a damn whether you are wasting your time or not (obviously you are as you seem like a full time forumer here). I am more concerned about my time.

I think its important to make sure you understand what others was posting, or else I will be wasting my time responding to thing you could claim you didnt say or you dont even have a clue.

Ringo33

18-05-13, 14:31

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....I don't give a damn whether you are wasting your time or not (obviously you are as you seem like a full time forumer here). I am more concerned about my time.

I dont see any point in engaging in any form of discussion with people who dont even know what they are talking about.

Since you are accusing my numbers are wrong and my statement is misleading, can you please show us your numbers and facts to support your argument that I am wrong and misleading.

You are free to borrow what proper-T has posted, but I would like you to post it just to make sure you understand and agree with what Proper-T has posted.

There has been plenty of talk about landed property are mainly bought for own stay. However a quick check on the URA rental transaction record show that from Apr 2012 to Mar 2013, there are close to 5000 landed rental contract signed. If we use 2 years lease contract as average and include those transaction off URA radar, then we could be looking at at lease 10,000 landed properties in the market for rental.

If we based on the landed property stock of 60,000 in Singapore, this will mean that at least 16% of the landed properties in Singapore are for rent.

Apr12 to Mar 13 average rent was $8100, Q1 2013 average rent is around $7980 per mth. Is this a sign that rental rate for landed property is coming down?

MLP

18-05-13, 14:41

Haha, Ringo....Ringo.... Like I said, if you are sincere please answer the 9 points questions that were posted by proper-t. They are crystal clear to me that you try to mislead people here in this forum. No point for me to post any question until you answer those first.

This is the second time I ask you to answer those questions if you are sincere. If you choose to twist and turn, the game is on....:mad:

I dont see any point in engaging in any form of discussion with people who dont even know what they are talking about.

Since you are accusing my numbers are wrong and my statement is misleading, can you please show us your numbers and facts to support your argument that I am wrong and misleading.

You are free to borrow what proper-T has posted, but I would like you to post it just to make sure you understand and agree with what Proper-T has posted.

Ringo33

18-05-13, 15:37

proper-t

18-05-13, 17:05

Talk about delusional. Someone thinks that personally taunting and insulting other forumers is going to distract readers from the fact that he has been spouting wrong and misleading statements throughout this thread (see below quote).

Your antics are already well known in the other parts of the forum. Just keep it up - your infamy will surpass even that of Mr B soon.

Ok...let's start on the wrong and misleading (The number in brackets refer to the post # in case you want to refer) :

1. We all know about him using the 97 numbers for the total landed stock.

2 (8). He tried to bump up the number of rented landed from 10K to 13K!

3(8). Next, he tried to fudge the figure even further by stating that 1 in 5 (20%) rented out their landed when the actual was 1 in 7 (14%)

4 (16). Having failed in that attempt, he brings up a total unrelated example whereby he plucks out of thin air an average price of 3.9m (no justifying figure provided) for a landed and tried to show that landed owners cannot justify living in it with a monthly household income of $25K

5 (31). He next brings in his infamous ppi chart again which has totally no relation to the thread title topic and tries to mislead readers away from thread topic.

6. (54). He further brings up another unrelated topic (dengue) saying it is always a problem for landed (no facts or figures)

7. (64). Topic switches to landed supply and he suggests that there is supply from FH landed being split into smaller plots (No facts or figures provided)

8.(68) He next suggests that landed in Malaysia be INCLUDED when considering the supply of landed in SG. His argument being that more and more expat Singaporeans are living in Iskandar (no facts or figures provided). Later says that you can infer a lot of Singaporeans are living in Isakandar by observing the sg registered cars driving through 2nd link in the morning.

9. (78) Tries to mislead readers again by saying that average price of landed = 3.9m and average rent is 8K (both not verified) and implying that landed owners with average monthly income of 25K will face a 'land storm'.

The rest of the pages are where he goes on and on about how landed will crash and keeps repeating stuff which have totally no relation to the thread topic "landed being mostly for own stay."

MLP

18-05-13, 19:47

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....This shows that you are not sincere by talking bullshit instead answering proper-t questions above. You are really a pain in the ass....

There is no game here. You are just a messenger.

Ringo33

18-05-13, 19:55

Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....This shows that you are not sincere by talking bullshit instead answering proper-t questions above. You are really a pain in the ass....

there are plenty of bullshit pending for proper-T's reply, so why should I should I waste my time entertaining his post and to pile more bullshit on top of it, especially when you know for sure you are not going to get any sensible reply.

Instead of acting like a parrot messenger or some b-grade care-lair-fare, why not pick up a discussion and post something that you really know.

Again, if you have facts and figures, please present yourself instead of putting big words that mean nothing.

Back to the topic, if you think what I posted is misleading, then why not show us some of your numbers .